[Biofuel] Off topic, a really good read
And a very nice respite from all the 'bad news' out there. It's the story of a journey. Folks interested in alternative transportation will find it interesting, and folks who are just interested in folks will also find it interesting. If you read it far enough to get to this passage; Then, however, Bill and I got a little deeper into the why of our trip. The why boils down, in its essence, to an affirmation of life. We all reach a point, sometime in our life, where we have to make a choice. Do we choose the rocking chair and the inevitable decline to the nursing home and the grave? Or, do we choose, instead, to take on new challenges and continue to expand the experience of our lives? Patti and I have chosen the latter. You'll be glad you did. http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=3Tzutdoc_id=3655v=YA Rolling Lawn Chairs. Anyway, n'joy. -- Chip Mefford Before Enlightenment; chop wood carry water After Enlightenment; chop wood carry water - Public Key http://www.well.com/user/cpm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Off-topic - Any eBay regulars?
Keith Addison wrote: [snip] What I need is a CD of Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium for Mac, which includes GoLive. [snip] Hey, Keith. Have you found what you need yet? AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Off-topic - Any eBay regulars?
Hello all Sorry to ask, but I need a little help (again!). Not so sure it's very off-topic though, unless the Journey to Forever website is off-topic. Adobe, bless their hearts, have just decided to dump GoLive, the excellent program I use for website maintenance and management, and I really don't want to consider changing to something else. I was just about the buy an upgrade so that I can migrate the whole operation to Mac OS X from its current very ancient OS 9 incarnation, rather important (why only now? - another story...). But Adobe won't supply an upgrade. What I need is a CD of Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium for Mac, which includes GoLive. They're available at eBay, but it's very difficult for us to handle eBay from Japan (read impossible). Would a very kind person in the US (probably) be willing to do it for me? - buy the CD at eBay, have it delivered to them there and mail it to me here? All costs immediately repaid. If so, please email me direct offlist. Thanks very much! All best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic - More on the Holocaust if you can stand it.
there seems little doubt that a reality check is way overdue for this issue. we mustn't forget that for every jew who died in the camps, there was a leftist or slav or homosexual who also died. in fact, the whole machinery of rounding people up into camps started with communists, socialists, and the heterosexually and mentally impaired. so, the holocaust as a genocide against the jews? highly open to question, imho. On 10/17/07, Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Hakan ; but the number of human corps laying around and later also excavated, Well, no one is denying that war is a terrible thing, and that there were many corpses lying around, but possibly they were caused by starvation and disease due to relentless Allied bombings of supply routes for food? How does eye witness accounts of many corpses lying around during a time of war translate into a coordinated plot for extinction? be upset about what you are saying and consider you as a dangerous person. Sorry to hear that. If you consider me to be a dangerous person, then I am afraid to think of what you consider Fred Leuchter. He is the one who testified as an expert witness, not me. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic - More on the Holocaust if you can stand it.
Chris, For every Jew It was rather for every 8-10 Jews. I think that you got the numbers a bit wrong and the timing, but you are right, let us not forget that the final solution included the homosexual and mentally impaired. The Slavs (Ziguener, Gipsy) I did mention earlier. The communists not only had a place to go to, but recognized that they were targeted much earlier and escaped in large numbers. It was also easier for them, because they were often poor workers that did not have any possessions to try to protect. Many of them were already engaged in Spain and Finland and I doubt that it was many infants and elderly people among them. *itler did have a cooperation agreement with *talin, up to 1940, and they fought together in Finland 1938 and against each other 1941. I have photographic proof of this, since my parents were voluntaries in Finland as physician and nurse in both wars and my father took both 8 mm films and photos from the front. Hakan At 10:40 AM 10/18/2007, you wrote: there seems little doubt that a reality check is way overdue for this issue. we mustn't forget that for every jew who died in the camps, there was a leftist or slav or homosexual who also died. in fact, the whole machinery of rounding people up into camps started with communists, socialists, and the heterosexually and mentally impaired. so, the holocaust as a genocide against the jews? highly open to question, imho. On 10/17/07, Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Hakan ; but the number of human corps laying around and later also excavated, Well, no one is denying that war is a terrible thing, and that there were many corpses lying around, but possibly they were caused by starvation and disease due to relentless Allied bombings of supply routes for food? How does eye witness accounts of many corpses lying around during a time of war translate into a coordinated plot for extinction? be upset about what you are saying and consider you as a dangerous person. Sorry to hear that. If you consider me to be a dangerous person, then I am afraid to think of what you consider Fred Leuchter. He is the one who testified as an expert witness, not me. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Mobil. +34 609 30 47 35 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 or 693 60 92 (skype) Mobil +46 (0)70-520 68 44 Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic - More on the Holocaust if you can stand it.
Hello Guag et al. The reason for the Germans during ww2 to spend time and resources on collecting racial, religious and political non-approved people was simple: Idelogical. Germany was during this time built up on a lie and the money for this lie was borrowed from domestic and foreign lone providers so as for building up the war industry itself. It was necessary for the German government to keep this lie, since their complete build-up was based upon that. But, when it came to the final solution it grew forward little by little, goverened by directives from the government and performed practically by the lower parts of the administration with the concentration camps adminstrations in the bottom. There were meetings held where administrates discussed how to kill as many as effiectively as possible within a certain time frama = executing the directives from the government. So, the reason for spending resources on these collection activities was that they did not know how the final solution would look like. A completely mad system from the very beginning until the end, if you ask me. Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 4:57 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Off Topic - More on the Holocaust if you can stand it. Hi Keith and all List Members I like the part about Fred Dr. Death Leuchter, the designer of the US Prison system's execution apparatus, as an expert defense witness who tested purported execution gas chambers ON-SITE in Auschwitz, Poland tesitified in a court of law under oath and determined they had never been used to kill anyone. The other question I have is this. The war machine runs on fuel. During a time of war for Germany, fuel would be incredibly important. So why would the Germans waste precious fuel to transport all the prisioners to the camps if they intended to kill them? Wouldn't a sharp bayonette be much cheaper? Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand 20th Anniversary of the Great Holocaust Trial by Michael A. Hoffman II Copyright 2005 by revisionisthistory.org January 7, 2005 marks the 20th anniversary of what came to be known throughout the world as The Great Holocaust Trial thanks chiefly to the drive, determination, courage and vision of one man, Ernst Zundel, supported by those he inspired. In 1985 Zundel was a German immigrant residing in Toronto, Canada where he had built a highly successful advertising and graphic arts business based in a rambling Victorian mansion in the bohemian Cabbagetown section of metropolitan Toronto. Zundel viewed the Six million story as a form of mental genocide against the German people; ostensibly a noble tale of the epoch struggle for human rights that in actuality was a form of devious hate propaganda, leveling every conceivable blood libel at the Germans and branding them with the Mark of Cain. Having survived the Allied firebombing of his native city of Pforzheim as a child, Zundel was well familiar with the war crimes of the hypocritical Allies and he made it his life's work to clear the name of his own people. For this commendable enterprise, Zundel had his mailing privileges revoked by the Canadian government in 1983, forcing him to open a post office box in Buffalo, New York and send a messenger to commute hundreds of miles just to receive mail. In 1985 he was charged under an archaic False News provision of an old Edwardian municipal code, for having published the pamphlet Did Six Million Really Die? He faced two years in prison if convicted. In reponse Zundel put the so-called Holocaust itself on trial, hiring a little-known maverick lawyer from British Columbia, Douglas Christie, to argue his case before Judge Hugh Locke. Seated next to Christie was the learned revisionist historian Prof. Robert Faurisson of France, who guided Christie's withering cross-examination of a long train of saintly 'Holocaust' survivors offered by the Crown. Zundel's defense was initially regarded by the press and public as preposterous. How can anyone deny the 'Holocaust? was the incredulous response to the news that Zundel would vigorously defend himself and the free speech rights of all Canadians. The trial was expected to be a quick and ignominious rout of Zundel and his motley crew. How wrong the odds-makers were! For the first time in history the holy survivors finally had to submit their testimony to scrutiny, to the rules of evidence and cross-examination, something that has never happened before or since. Seated in the press gallery, I watched as my colleagues of the fourth estate grew ever more surprised and shocked at the amazing admissions Christie and Faurisson elicited from the eyewitnesses to the gas chambers. TV reporters like Claud Adams and journalists from the Toronto Star and Globe and Mail produced footage and headlines
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic - More on the Holocaust if you can stand it.
Peter, Germany did not at any time lacked coal, which at that time was the fuel of trains. Germany did at the time developed synthetic fuel from coal, but because of the time element it never grew to a large enough production and South Africa continued this development. In the allies getting to Auschwitz, it is actually quite irrelevant if the gas chambers was used or not, but the number of human corps laying around and later also excavated, was quite telling and executed in a number of ways. It was also many survivors who took care of the corps as work details and that could testify. It was even some who survived the gas chambers or as the victims were told the disinfection and anti bug chambers. It is not the first nor the last genocide in history and I am not surprised if you soon will deny that Pol Pot existed or that it was not a genocide in Cambodia or that all the African genocides are only propaganda, or that the US use of chemicals in Vietnam was a cleaning service that the Vietnamese should be grateful for. It is a very worrying discussion line, from denial to how the Israelis have used it as alibi for their own war crimes. It is however very important that all will be a part of the future history in a correct way, but as it is said it takes 100 years to write history. Concerning WWI we are almost there and it is not far to WWII. As one who was born in the beginning of WWII and old enough to understand the histories that I personally heard from several survivors in end of 1940's and during the 1950's, I have no reason to express doubts as you do. I even have the right and experiences to be upset about what you are saying and consider you as a dangerous person. Hakan At 04:57 AM 10/17/2007, you wrote: Hi Keith and all List Members I like the part about Fred Dr. Death Leuchter, the designer of the US Prison system's execution apparatus, as an expert defense witness who tested purported execution gas chambers ON-SITE in Auschwitz, Poland tesitified in a court of law under oath and determined they had never been used to kill anyone. The other question I have is this. The war machine runs on fuel. During a time of war for Germany, fuel would be incredibly important. So why would the Germans waste precious fuel to transport all the prisioners to the camps if they intended to kill them? Wouldn't a sharp bayonette be much cheaper? Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand 20th Anniversary of the Great Holocaust Trial by Michael A. Hoffman II Copyright 2005 by revisionisthistory.org January 7, 2005 marks the 20th anniversary of what came to be known throughout the world as The Great Holocaust Trial thanks chiefly to the drive, determination, courage and vision of one man, Ernst Zundel, supported by those he inspired. In 1985 Zundel was a German immigrant residing in Toronto, Canada where he had built a highly successful advertising and graphic arts business based in a rambling Victorian mansion in the bohemian Cabbagetown section of metropolitan Toronto. Zundel viewed the Six million story as a form of mental genocide against the German people; ostensibly a noble tale of the epoch struggle for human rights that in actuality was a form of devious hate propaganda, leveling every conceivable blood libel at the Germans and branding them with the Mark of Cain. Having survived the Allied firebombing of his native city of Pforzheim as a child, Zundel was well familiar with the war crimes of the hypocritical Allies and he made it his life's work to clear the name of his own people. For this commendable enterprise, Zundel had his mailing privileges revoked by the Canadian government in 1983, forcing him to open a post office box in Buffalo, New York and send a messenger to commute hundreds of miles just to receive mail. In 1985 he was charged under an archaic False News provision of an old Edwardian municipal code, for having published the pamphlet Did Six Million Really Die? He faced two years in prison if convicted. In reponse Zundel put the so-called Holocaust itself on trial, hiring a little-known maverick lawyer from British Columbia, Douglas Christie, to argue his case before Judge Hugh Locke. Seated next to Christie was the learned revisionist historian Prof. Robert Faurisson of France, who guided Christie's withering cross-examination of a long train of saintly 'Holocaust' survivors offered by the Crown. Zundel's defense was initially regarded by the press and public as preposterous. How can anyone deny the 'Holocaust? was the incredulous response to the news that Zundel would vigorously defend himself and the free speech rights of all Canadians. The trial was expected to be a quick and ignominious rout of Zundel and his motley crew. How wrong the odds-makers were! For the first time in history the holy survivors finally had to submit their testimony to scrutiny, to the rules of evidence and cross-examination, something that has never happened before or since. Seated in
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic - More on the Holocaust if you can stand it.
Hi Peter I think Hoffman's a bit of a nutcase, or so swathed in conspiracy theories he might as well be one. Anyway, IMHO, what's interesting isn't the questions themselves so much as the fact that it's forbidden to ask them. It's the 21st Century after all, not the Middle Ages anymore. As Bob said last time around: ... But in fact it begs the question, posed in items 18-20 of Santomauro's piece. This is the nub of the matter. Why is this subject banned from discussion in 11 countries (with a 12th about to come on line i.e. the recent American hate speech law which sailed through Congress) and why do otherwise apparently sane and intelligent people suddenly go la-la when asked to contemplate the anomalies? ... Over the years I have come to wonder if perhaps the Holocaust story has been used to weave a political hair shirt to keep likely dissenters in line while another holocaust - an ever-increasing obscenity of more than 50 years standing - is pursued with even more inhuman zeal than ever fascism could summon to its cause. That was about this: Ahmadinejad's Holocaust Problems are My Holocaust Problems Michael Santomauro - ReportersNoteBook Sept 27, 2007 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg71100.html Indeed, if you question Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, Bob's another holocaust, something similar happens, the Israel lobby gets you, in the US at least, with much the same tactics, kiss your reputation goodbye and probably your career too. Because of this taboo, it's difficult or impossible to make any sense of what's happening in the Middle East, or of energy politics. It's in the way, it has to go. Indeed opposition is spreading, especially in the last two years, the iron grip is weakening. Another reason it's a false sacred cow is that as I said genocides are two a penny these days, why is this particular genocide any more important than the others, especially since they're happening right now, not just a thing of the past? We're living amid an ongoing global holocaust. It's not just an accident, an unfortunate side-effect or something. Life is cheap. But life is not cheap - as Fritz said, even one is too many. Life is sacred, all life is sacred. http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg71185.html Re: [Biofuel] Holocaust error In Rulers and Ruled in the US Empire (see next) James Petras talks of an accelerating predisposition to genocides to accomplish political aims. Meanwhile, if you happen to like Holocausts, these same folks who won't allow questioning or criticism of Israel and the Holocaust are in cahoots with America's ultra-rightwing End Times so-called Christian so-called fundamentalist nutters who're hellbent on killing everyone except them. (See America's Armageddonites.) We definitely do need a little more focus on these issues. If prying away at Holocaust doctrine helps then that's okay by me. Best Keith Hi Keith and all List Members I like the part about Fred Dr. Death Leuchter, the designer of the US Prison system's execution apparatus, as an expert defense witness who tested purported execution gas chambers ON-SITE in Auschwitz, Poland tesitified in a court of law under oath and determined they had never been used to kill anyone. The other question I have is this. The war machine runs on fuel. During a time of war for Germany, fuel would be incredibly important. So why would the Germans waste precious fuel to transport all the prisioners to the camps if they intended to kill them? Wouldn't a sharp bayonette be much cheaper? Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand 20th Anniversary of the Great Holocaust Trial by Michael A. Hoffman II Copyright 2005 by revisionisthistory.org January 7, 2005 marks the 20th anniversary of what came to be known throughout the world as The Great Holocaust Trial thanks chiefly to the drive, determination, courage and vision of one man, Ernst Zundel, supported by those he inspired. In 1985 Zundel was a German immigrant residing in Toronto, Canada where he had built a highly successful advertising and graphic arts business based in a rambling Victorian mansion in the bohemian Cabbagetown section of metropolitan Toronto. Zundel viewed the Six million story as a form of mental genocide against the German people; ostensibly a noble tale of the epoch struggle for human rights that in actuality was a form of devious hate propaganda, leveling every conceivable blood libel at the Germans and branding them with the Mark of Cain. Having survived the Allied firebombing of his native city of Pforzheim as a child, Zundel was well familiar with the war crimes of the hypocritical Allies and he made it his life's work to clear the name of his own people. For this commendable enterprise, Zundel had his mailing privileges revoked by the Canadian government in 1983, forcing him to open a post office box in Buffalo, New York and send a messenger to commute hundreds of miles just to
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic - More on the Holocaust if you can stand it.
Hi Hakan ; but the number of human corps laying around and later also excavated, Well, no one is denying that war is a terrible thing, and that there were many corpses lying around, but possibly they were caused by starvation and disease due to relentless Allied bombings of supply routes for food? How does eye witness accounts of many corpses lying around during a time of war translate into a coordinated plot for extinction? be upset about what you are saying and consider you as a dangerous person. Sorry to hear that. If you consider me to be a dangerous person, then I am afraid to think of what you consider Fred Leuchter. He is the one who testified as an expert witness, not me. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Off Topic - More on the Holocaust if you can stand it.
Hi Keith and all List Members I like the part about Fred Dr. Death Leuchter, the designer of the US Prison system's execution apparatus, as an expert defense witness who tested purported execution gas chambers ON-SITE in Auschwitz, Poland tesitified in a court of law under oath and determined they had never been used to kill anyone. The other question I have is this. The war machine runs on fuel. During a time of war for Germany, fuel would be incredibly important. So why would the Germans waste precious fuel to transport all the prisioners to the camps if they intended to kill them? Wouldn't a sharp bayonette be much cheaper? Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand 20th Anniversary of the Great Holocaust Trial by Michael A. Hoffman II Copyright 2005 by revisionisthistory.org January 7, 2005 marks the 20th anniversary of what came to be known throughout the world as The Great Holocaust Trial thanks chiefly to the drive, determination, courage and vision of one man, Ernst Zundel, supported by those he inspired. In 1985 Zundel was a German immigrant residing in Toronto, Canada where he had built a highly successful advertising and graphic arts business based in a rambling Victorian mansion in the bohemian Cabbagetown section of metropolitan Toronto. Zundel viewed the Six million story as a form of mental genocide against the German people; ostensibly a noble tale of the epoch struggle for human rights that in actuality was a form of devious hate propaganda, leveling every conceivable blood libel at the Germans and branding them with the Mark of Cain. Having survived the Allied firebombing of his native city of Pforzheim as a child, Zundel was well familiar with the war crimes of the hypocritical Allies and he made it his life's work to clear the name of his own people. For this commendable enterprise, Zundel had his mailing privileges revoked by the Canadian government in 1983, forcing him to open a post office box in Buffalo, New York and send a messenger to commute hundreds of miles just to receive mail. In 1985 he was charged under an archaic False News provision of an old Edwardian municipal code, for having published the pamphlet Did Six Million Really Die? He faced two years in prison if convicted. In reponse Zundel put the so-called Holocaust itself on trial, hiring a little-known maverick lawyer from British Columbia, Douglas Christie, to argue his case before Judge Hugh Locke. Seated next to Christie was the learned revisionist historian Prof. Robert Faurisson of France, who guided Christie's withering cross-examination of a long train of saintly 'Holocaust' survivors offered by the Crown. Zundel's defense was initially regarded by the press and public as preposterous. How can anyone deny the 'Holocaust? was the incredulous response to the news that Zundel would vigorously defend himself and the free speech rights of all Canadians. The trial was expected to be a quick and ignominious rout of Zundel and his motley crew. How wrong the odds-makers were! For the first time in history the holy survivors finally had to submit their testimony to scrutiny, to the rules of evidence and cross-examination, something that has never happened before or since. Seated in the press gallery, I watched as my colleagues of the fourth estate grew ever more surprised and shocked at the amazing admissions Christie and Faurisson elicited from the eyewitnesses to the gas chambers. TV reporters like Claud Adams and journalists from the Toronto Star and Globe and Mail produced footage and headlines that turned Canada upside down. Canadian readers and viewers learned that there was no scientific evidence for homicidal gas chambers, that homicidal gassings (as opposed to the German use of Zyklon B as a life-saving prophylactic against the deadly typhus louse), were a rumor that the inmates heard but never actually witnessed for themselves--these were statements obtained by Mr. Christie from the prosecution's own vaunted Auschwitz eyewitnesses! In March of 1985 Zundel was convicted by a cowardly jury that had followed the prejudicial advisories of a bent judge; but the conviction was reversed on appeal and Zundel went to trial again in 1988, eventually winning a Supreme Court decision for free speech in Canada. The 1988 trial is more well known in revisionist circles. Zundel was famous by then and the appearance of Fred Dr. Death Leuchter, the designer of the US Prison system's execution apparatus, as an expert defense witness who tested purported execution gas chambers on-site in Auschwitz, Poland and determined they had never been used to kill anyone, created an international sensation. Still, for this reporter, the 1985 trial has the greatest significance. Having been badly burned the first time around (Dr. Raul Hilberg, the preeminent historian of the Six Million admitted on the witness stand in the first trial that there was no scientific evidence for gassings--I'm at a loss he said when asked to
[Biofuel] Off Topic- Is Harmon
Seaver out there somewhere? Drop us a line, mate, if you are. Thanks Sorry for the interruption, Back to our regular programming. (btw, sorry I haven't posted in a while, but I just haven't had much to say that I could get in in less than a few thousand words, and who wants to read that?) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic- Is Harmon
Hello Chip Seaver out there somewhere? He was once a list member but that was a few years back. I'll email you offlist. Best Keith Drop us a line, mate, if you are. Thanks Sorry for the interruption, Back to our regular programming. (btw, sorry I haven't posted in a while, but I just haven't had much to say that I could get in in less than a few thousand words, and who wants to read that?) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Off topic
Hey Jan; Since the reaction proceeds in stages from TRi- to Di- to Mono-glycerides and then finally to esters, I'm wondering if there is a statistical relationship to the fractions?? In other words if we do a reaction and find 8% triglycerides remaining can we estimate the fractions of diglycerides and monoglycerides as well since they are unmeasureable with this test? Or would the ratios depend on what type of oil was being used and other factors such as FFA content? Joe Jan Warnqvist wrote: Dear all. I am very flattered that my methanol method had so much attention. Here is a development of the method: Equipment needed for the analysis 1. One 250 ml separatory funnel 2. One 400 ml beaker (Figure 2) 3. One magnetic stirrer 4. Balancer with 0,05g acc. 5. One 50 ml narrowed neck E-flask Chemicals for the analysis 1. Water free methanol, min 225 g 2. FAME with water content less than 500 ppm, clear, bright and without visible impurities, min 25 g Take the clean beaker and put exactly 225 g of methanol in it. Then add exactly 25g of the biodiesel. Stir the fluids on the stirrer for 2 minutes. Take the beaker off the stirrer ans pour the content into the separation funnel.Take the clean e-flask to the balancer and tarate with the flask. Let any oil phase separate out from the biodiesel/methanol phase and put it in the e-flask. Weigh the content and calculate the result: 1 - m1/m2 = m3 where m1 is the mass of the biodiesel m2 is the amount of methanol m3 is how much of the biodiesel put in that is consisting from methyl esters. The method will show huch much of the material by mass that is soluble in methanol. This includes mostl mono- and diglycerides. The residue consists therefore mostly from unreacted oil. With best Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:22 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Newbie Seeking Diesel Van Recommendations Hi Ray; Sorry for the delay. Try this forum for more information on Delicas. http://delica.ca/forum/index.php Joe raymond greeley wrote: I would like to see this van, what did you send it in. I have not been able to open ray Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:48:02 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Newbie Seeking Diesel Van Recommendations Look for a mitsubishi delica. A buddy of mine just imported one with low miles from Japan. He loves it. Joe Luke Kareklas wrote: Hello All, I am a Kid's Birthday Party Entertainer, as well as a Juggler, Magician, and Balloon Guy. I live in the Midwest, and have all 4 seasons during the year, if this is a helpful bit of information. Lately my entertainment business has gotten really busy and it's come time for me to buy a larger vehicle. I have been a fan of alternative fuels for years, but never pursued a diesel vehicle. I would like recommendations on what type of deisel van would you recommend that would most easily transfer over to a SVO, WVO, or biodiesel system for me to drive? I am looking for a 1/2 or 3/4 ton van, not really a minivan type of vehicle. Again, I am naive and new to all this and hope your thoughts will help ground me and get me pointed in the right direction. I guess I have to go buy a diesel vehicle before I can get moving on SVO, WVO, or Biodiesel fueling, right? Thank you very much. Luke Luke Kareklas *Luke the Juggler* *614-764-8010* www.LuketheJuggler.com http://www.lukethejuggler.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Change is good. See what’s different about Windows Live Hotmail. Check it out! http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/default.html?locale=en-usocid=RMT_TAGLM_HMWL_reten_changegood_0507
Re: [Biofuel] Off topic
Dear all. I am very flattered that my methanol method had so much attention. Here is a development of the method: Equipment needed for the analysis 1.. One 250 ml separatory funnel 2.. One 400 ml beaker (Figure 2) 3.. One magnetic stirrer 4.. Balancer with 0,05g acc. 5.. One 50 ml narrowed neck E-flask Chemicals for the analysis 1. Water free methanol, min 225 g 2. FAME with water content less than 500 ppm, clear, bright and without visible impurities, min 25 g Take the clean beaker and put exactly 225 g of methanol in it. Then add exactly 25g of the biodiesel. Stir the fluids on the stirrer for 2 minutes. Take the beaker off the stirrer ans pour the content into the separation funnel.Take the clean e-flask to the balancer and tarate with the flask. Let any oil phase separate out from the biodiesel/methanol phase and put it in the e-flask. Weigh the content and calculate the result: 1 - m1/m2 = m3 where m1 is the mass of the biodiesel m2 is the amount of methanol m3 is how much of the biodiesel put in that is consisting from methyl esters. The method will show huch much of the material by mass that is soluble in methanol. This includes mostl mono- and diglycerides. The residue consists therefore mostly from unreacted oil. With best Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Newbie Seeking Diesel Van Recommendations Hi Ray; Sorry for the delay. Try this forum for more information on Delicas. http://delica.ca/forum/index.php Joe raymond greeley wrote: I would like to see this van, what did you send it in. I have not been able to open ray -- Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 15:48:02 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Newbie Seeking Diesel Van Recommendations Look for a mitsubishi delica. A buddy of mine just imported one with low miles from Japan. He loves it. Joe Luke Kareklas wrote: Hello All, I am a Kid's Birthday Party Entertainer, as well as a Juggler, Magician, and Balloon Guy. I live in the Midwest, and have all 4 seasons during the year, if this is a helpful bit of information. Lately my entertainment business has gotten really busy and it's come time for me to buy a larger vehicle. I have been a fan of alternative fuels for years, but never pursued a diesel vehicle. I would like recommendations on what type of deisel van would you recommend that would most easily transfer over to a SVO, WVO, or biodiesel system for me to drive? I am looking for a 1/2 or 3/4 ton van, not really a minivan type of vehicle. Again, I am naive and new to all this and hope your thoughts will help ground me and get me pointed in the right direction. I guess I have to go buy a diesel vehicle before I can get moving on SVO, WVO, or Biodiesel fueling, right? Thank you very much. Luke Luke Kareklas Luke the Juggler 614-764-8010 www.LuketheJuggler.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Change is good. See what’s different about Windows Live Hotmail. Check it out! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at
[Biofuel] Off Topic 'HELP Africa'
H.E.L.P. Humanitarian Efforts to Lesson Poverty Africa. http://www.helpafrica.net At first blush these folks look pretty cool Does anyone on the list know anything about this outfit? I have an opportunity to throw some support at this initiative, and I am trying to get as much input as I can find. Thanks in advance. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] OFF TOPIC U.S. Election Humor
I hope you don't mind a bit of humor. I While walking down the street one day a US senator is tragically hit by a truck and dies.His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance."Welcome to heaven," says St. Peter. "Before you settle in, it seems there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts, you see, so we're not sure what to do with you.""No problem, just let me in," says the man."Well, I'd like to, but I have orders from higher up. What we'll do is have you spend one day in hell and one in heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity.""Really, I've made up my mind. I want to be in heaven," says the senator."I'm sorry, but we have our rules."And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goesdown, down, down to hell. The doors open and he finds himself in the middle of a green golfcourse. In the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front of it are all his friends and other politicians who had worked with him.Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to greet him, shake his hand, and reminisce about the good times they had whilegetting rich at the expense of the people.They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster, caviar and champagne.Also present is the devil, who really is a very friendly guy who has a good time dancing and telling jokes. They are having such a good time that before he realizes it, it is time to go.Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and waves while the elevator rises...The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens on heaven where St. Peter is waiting for him."Now it's time to visit heaven."So, 24 hours pass with the senator joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a good time and,before he realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns."Well, then, you've spent a day in hell and another in heaven. Now choose your eternity."The senator reflects for a minute, then he answers: "Well, I would never have said it before, I mean heaven has been delightful, but I think I would be better off in hell."So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell.Now the doors of the elevator open and he's in the middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage.He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from above.The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around his shoulder. "I don't understand," stammers the senator. "Yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate lobster and caviar, drank champagne, and danced and had a great time. Now there's just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable. What happened?"The devil looks at him, smiles and says, "Yesterday we were campaigning.. Today you voted." ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]'Racist' marriage law upheld by Israel
Source: The Independent http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article484122.ece 'Racist' marriage law upheld by Israel Israel's High Court has narrowly upheld a law denying Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza married to Israeli citizens the right to live in the country with their spouses. The judges voted by six to five not to cancel a four-year-old amendment to the Citizenship Law which outlaws family unification in Israel between Palestinians and Arab citizens of Israel. It was passed as a one-year emergency measure in 2002 on the ground that it was needed to protect Israeli security. But the amendment, described yesterday by the Knesset member Ran Cohen, of the left-wing Meretz party, as rooted in racism, has been renewed every year since then. Israel's Chief Justice, Aharon Barak, sided with the minority on the bench, declaring: This violation of rights is directed against Arab citizens of Israel. As a result, therefore, the law is a violation of the right of Arab citizens in Israel to equality. Muad el-Sana, an Israeli Arab lawyer who is married to a Palestinian woman from the West Bank town of Bethlehem and works for Adalah, one of the agencies bringing the case, declared: This is a very black day for the state of Israel and also a black day for my family and for the other families who are suffering like us. The government is preventing people from conducting a normal family life just because of their nationality. Wile the court had granted el-Sana's wife, Abir, a university lecturer, a temporary injunction preventing her deportation, Mr el-Sana said the high court's ruling would make it almost impossible for the couple and their two children, aged 2 years and five months, to continue living together. Their individual petition said that he has no right to live in Bethlehem and she has no right to live with her husband in the Negev. Mohammed Barakeh, a prominent Arab Knesset member on Sunday said the ruling gives racism a shady alibi. He added: The fact that the ruling was opposed by several of the judges is a ray of light that does not illuminate the darkness of the court's decision and the Knesset's legislation. Official figures show that of 22,000 applications for such reunification since the Oslo accord in the mid 1990s only 6000 have been granted. Adalah said yesterday that the state had said that it had interrogated only 25 of these for alleged involvement in terrorist activities and that the state anyway had ample capacity to carry out security checks during the staged process towards legal status. Adalah said last night that in 1980, at the height of apartheid, a South African court had refused to approve orders similar to the present Israeli law because they contradicted the right to a family. Last year the then Interior Minister Ophir Pines-Paz slightly modified the law by widening ministerial discretion to award legal status to Palestinian spouses. Yesterday Haim Ramon, Israel's Justice Minister, indicated he would be seeking to recast the law to apply equally to all ethnic groups but warned that no country was obliged to admit citizens form an authority with which it was in conflict. He added: We have to remember that this law was legislated during the Palestinian uprising, when several people who received citizenship through family unification carried out attacks. The outgoing judge Michael Cheshin, who voted with the majority, said during a debate in February: The Palestinian Authority is an enemy government, a government that wants to destroy the state and is not prepared to recognize Israel... Why should we take chances during wartime? Did England and America take chances with Germans seeking their destruction during the Second World War? No one is preventing them from building a family but they should live in Jenin instead of in [the Israeli Arab city of] Umm al-Fahm. * The Israeli army said it had killed at least seven Palestinian militants in the West Bank yesterday. One of the men killed was Elias Al Ashkar, blamed for suicide attacks including the one in Tel Aviv on 17 April which killed 11. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] off-topic [Hydroponic gardening]
What about the oceans? I know that's not the same as hydroponics, but they are a sustainable ecosystem which do not depend on soil. The organic matter just floats around in the water. Now, I admit that trying to bring it onto land, and grow something like tomatoes instead of kelp, is not the same. But is does seem that we can't just arbritrarily dismiss non-soil growing as inherently unsustainable, when 3/4'ths of our plant has been doing this for billions of years. Zeke On 4/8/06, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Peter Hi Keith, I completely agree. I was just thinking about the poor guy who had to haul 5-gallon buckets of soil up to the top of his roof. :-) But just think of all the great veggies he'd haul down again, with gravity on his side! If you had absolutely no other choice( say you lived in a high rise and just had a little window space) the system I described is the friendliest potted-plant system I could come up with. Could be. I mentioned growing stuff in windows in a tiny 19th-floor apartment, in soil with a worm bin under the sink, that worked well. People's wives and parents don't always like the worms though, maybe your system can be more friendly. Growing and sustaining a plot of soil is definitely a better way to go. When the first Europeans arrived in the eastern Americas 500 years ago, the locals showed them how to grow corn - take a little fish, stick it in the ground next to the corn seed, and watch the corn take off. Sustaining the soil is at the root of everything, literally. Yea verily. Except all evil! LOL! As to your next post... All best Keith --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Peter There really is a range of options available; the main thing is to adapt to your own unique circumstances while using as little energy and material as possible. I like the idea of the guy growing in an urban wasteland - real urban renewal, that is. Urban wastelands the world over are riddled with city farms and greening projects these days, no need to go wrong-tech about it. Lots here: http://journeytoforever.org/cityfarm.html City farms This is quite a nice project: http://journeytoforever.org/garden_con-mexico.html Organic food production in the slums of Mexico City With drip tubing and very well aerated soil (use 50-75% non-absorbant material; perlite or coconut husks can be used) you can grow plants in fairly small containers with daily watering and minimal effort (drip tubing is really optional); note that in this case you have to continually add nutrients to the water since there is little available in the soil material. This is a completely different prospect from a farmer who rotates crops and continually adds manure/seaweed to fallow fields, etc. If you are stuck in a city with no other options, the above strategy minimizes your use of soil, and you don't have to bother will all that hydro equipment. The planting mix can be recycled crop after crop, as well, with maybe a little fresh slow-release organic soil amendment now and then. Why minimise the use of soil? Use soil, make compost, have great crops and no problems. It all comes down to nutrients - using organic fertilizers is the way to go. Sorry to disagree, but nutrients aren't the way to go, whatever the source. Do it organically and you never have to bother about nutrients. It makes little difference if the nutrients are organic or not, nutrient feeding is chemical growing, not organics. You wouldn't expect a guy lying in a hospital bed being fed a nutrient drip to have vibrant health and an invulnerable immune system either. You can go to your garden store and buy a bag of earthworm casings, a bag of fish meal and a bag of kelp, mix this up in a huge tank of water, and use that for watering. Experiment with the concentrations to see what works best; often people use way more fertilizer then they need to, which is a waste. Pretty simple, cheap and organic. Only in origin. Organic growing is a system, what it boils down to is feeding the soil, not the plant. If the soil is healthy the plants look after themselves, much better than you ever can. So-called fertilisers aren't fertilisers, they're just plant nutrients. Organic fertiliser is compost, it's just about the only thing that will reliably fertilise the soil. And it's very easy to make, even in small quantities. No need to buy anything. I do agree that the oil-refinery byproduct chemical fertilizer mixes are best avoided, for many reasons - whether you are gardening on your roof or in an open field. In any case, happy gardening! Indeed, in any case. Best Keith
Re: [Biofuel] off-topic [Hydroponic gardening]
What about the oceans? I know that's not the same as hydroponics, but they are a sustainable ecosystem which do not depend on soil. The organic matter just floats around in the water. Now, I admit that trying to bring it onto land, and grow something like tomatoes instead of kelp, is not the same. But is does seem that we can't just arbritrarily dismiss non-soil growing as inherently unsustainable, when 3/4'ths of our plant has been doing this for billions of years. Try growing sea plants on the land and land plants in the sea then. Both systems are sustainable, and complementary, but there's not much in common in the way nature grows things in the two different media, soil and the sea. There's a fairly famous case of two chemists who announced they'd synthesized sea water. They had, they did the perfect job of it, only fish died in it. Yeah, sounds like an urban legend but it was quite widely quoted in the pre-Net days before urban legends. Whatever, it makes the point. There are plenty of different kinds of eco-systems, but if you want to grow food plants grow them in living soil because that's where they come from and that's what they're a part of. Hydroponics considers the provision of N, P, K, plus the other macro- and micro-nutrients needed for plants to grow. The soil is more interested in protein synthesis, and so is the plant. So is the immune system of the entire land-based biosphere. If the immune system has holes in it, whatever's making the holes is not sustainable, and neither is the system it's a part of. You get holes in the immune system when the proteins don't come out right at the lowest level of the biotic pyramid, where the synthesis starts, in the soil. Then the holes appear all over the place, not necessarily where you might expect to find them. For example, most food plants are mycorrhiza formers, ie their roots become a combination of plant root and soil fungus, with the fungus penetrating the root and being consumed alive by the plant - this is living protoplasm, not just N, P and K or whatever nutrients. Meanwhile the fungus consumes plant waste-products which include products of photo-synthesis which would not otherwise by available to the fungus. On the other hand the fungus has the advantage of being able to consume humus and soil organic matter direct, which the plant can't do. Providing and removing this symbiotic association has a vivid effect on plant growth, health and pest immunity, far beyond what could be explained by the mere N-P-K content of the fungus consumed. It also has a vivid effect on the immunity of the rest of the biotic pyramid above the plant layer, when compared with livestock etc that are nourished by the products of infertile soils with poor levels of soil life and no mycorrhizal fungi. This is a fairly typical example: Donna Fezler of Grand Cypress Ranch did a funded, controlled study of the nutritional value of grocery-store vs free-range eggs. She had three groups of chicks, fed on free-choice non-medicated commercial feed, with one group fed a supplement of cooked free-range eggs twice a day, a second fed the same amount of grocery-store eggs, and the third a control getting only the free-choice feed. The grocery store egg fed group ate more than any group by 28 days and weighed the least ... the grocery eggs were actually negative nutrition. The birds in that group had poor feed efficiency, consuming the most feed and having the least weight gain. The free-range egg fed birds were 22.4% heavier than the grocery egg fed birds... There were residual effects of the grocery egg on the chicks' development... There is an issue here: grocery store eggs did not even provide the same nutrition as nothing at all with these chicks. Mycorrhizal fungi are among the many types of soil life that are destroyed by the use of chemical nutrient fertilisers. See, inter alia: Trees and Toadstools by M.C. Rayner http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#rayner An Agricultural Testament by Sir Albert Howard http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#howard It's also often been found that different composts containing different levels of N-P-K might not have the expected comparative results when actually used in the field. The one with the lower N-P-K level can often produce much better yields than the higher-nutrient compost, even when used side by side with the same crop in the same field. The nutrient levels in the fertiliser often show little or no correlation with the yield, resistance and quality of the crop. It ain't just chemistry. Neglect the biology and you're entering a cul-de-sac. I could go on and on. Okay okay, I DO go on and on. LOL! Best Keith Zeke On 4/8/06, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Peter Hi Keith, I completely agree. I was just thinking about the poor guy who had to haul 5-gallon buckets of soil up to the top of his roof. :-) But
Re: [Biofuel] off-topic [Hydroponic gardening]
Hi Keith, I completely agree. I was just thinking about the poor guy who had to haul 5-gallon buckets of soil up to the top of his roof. If you had absolutely no other choice( say you lived in a high rise and just had a little window space) the system I described is the friendliest potted-plant system I could come up with. Growing and sustaining a plot of soil is definitely a better way to go. When the first Europeans arrived in the eastern Americas 500 years ago, the locals showed them how to grow corn - take a little fish, stick it in the ground next to the corn seed, and watch the corn take off. Sustaining the soil is at the root of everything, literally. --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Peter There really is a range of options available; the main thing is to adapt to your own unique circumstances while using as little energy and material as possible. I like the idea of the guy growing in an urban wasteland - real urban renewal, that is. Urban wastelands the world over are riddled with city farms and greening projects these days, no need to go wrong-tech about it. Lots here: http://journeytoforever.org/cityfarm.html City farms This is quite a nice project: http://journeytoforever.org/garden_con-mexico.html Organic food production in the slums of Mexico City With drip tubing and very well aerated soil (use 50-75% non-absorbant material; perlite or coconut husks can be used) you can grow plants in fairly small containers with daily watering and minimal effort (drip tubing is really optional); note that in this case you have to continually add nutrients to the water since there is little available in the soil material. This is a completely different prospect from a farmer who rotates crops and continually adds manure/seaweed to fallow fields, etc. If you are stuck in a city with no other options, the above strategy minimizes your use of soil, and you don't have to bother will all that hydro equipment. The planting mix can be recycled crop after crop, as well, with maybe a little fresh slow-release organic soil amendment now and then. Why minimise the use of soil? Use soil, make compost, have great crops and no problems. It all comes down to nutrients - using organic fertilizers is the way to go. Sorry to disagree, but nutrients aren't the way to go, whatever the source. Do it organically and you never have to bother about nutrients. It makes little difference if the nutrients are organic or not, nutrient feeding is chemical growing, not organics. You wouldn't expect a guy lying in a hospital bed being fed a nutrient drip to have vibrant health and an invulnerable immune system either. You can go to your garden store and buy a bag of earthworm casings, a bag of fish meal and a bag of kelp, mix this up in a huge tank of water, and use that for watering. Experiment with the concentrations to see what works best; often people use way more fertilizer then they need to, which is a waste. Pretty simple, cheap and organic. Only in origin. Organic growing is a system, what it boils down to is feeding the soil, not the plant. If the soil is healthy the plants look after themselves, much better than you ever can. So-called fertilisers aren't fertilisers, they're just plant nutrients. Organic fertiliser is compost, it's just about the only thing that will reliably fertilise the soil. And it's very easy to make, even in small quantities. No need to buy anything. I do agree that the oil-refinery byproduct chemical fertilizer mixes are best avoided, for many reasons - whether you are gardening on your roof or in an open field. In any case, happy gardening! Indeed, in any case. Best Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Evergreen Solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Err...not sure where all that's coming from. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] off-topic [Hydroponic gardening]
Hi Peter Hi Keith, I completely agree. I was just thinking about the poor guy who had to haul 5-gallon buckets of soil up to the top of his roof. :-) But just think of all the great veggies he'd haul down again, with gravity on his side! If you had absolutely no other choice( say you lived in a high rise and just had a little window space) the system I described is the friendliest potted-plant system I could come up with. Could be. I mentioned growing stuff in windows in a tiny 19th-floor apartment, in soil with a worm bin under the sink, that worked well. People's wives and parents don't always like the worms though, maybe your system can be more friendly. Growing and sustaining a plot of soil is definitely a better way to go. When the first Europeans arrived in the eastern Americas 500 years ago, the locals showed them how to grow corn - take a little fish, stick it in the ground next to the corn seed, and watch the corn take off. Sustaining the soil is at the root of everything, literally. Yea verily. Except all evil! LOL! As to your next post... All best Keith --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Peter There really is a range of options available; the main thing is to adapt to your own unique circumstances while using as little energy and material as possible. I like the idea of the guy growing in an urban wasteland - real urban renewal, that is. Urban wastelands the world over are riddled with city farms and greening projects these days, no need to go wrong-tech about it. Lots here: http://journeytoforever.org/cityfarm.html City farms This is quite a nice project: http://journeytoforever.org/garden_con-mexico.html Organic food production in the slums of Mexico City With drip tubing and very well aerated soil (use 50-75% non-absorbant material; perlite or coconut husks can be used) you can grow plants in fairly small containers with daily watering and minimal effort (drip tubing is really optional); note that in this case you have to continually add nutrients to the water since there is little available in the soil material. This is a completely different prospect from a farmer who rotates crops and continually adds manure/seaweed to fallow fields, etc. If you are stuck in a city with no other options, the above strategy minimizes your use of soil, and you don't have to bother will all that hydro equipment. The planting mix can be recycled crop after crop, as well, with maybe a little fresh slow-release organic soil amendment now and then. Why minimise the use of soil? Use soil, make compost, have great crops and no problems. It all comes down to nutrients - using organic fertilizers is the way to go. Sorry to disagree, but nutrients aren't the way to go, whatever the source. Do it organically and you never have to bother about nutrients. It makes little difference if the nutrients are organic or not, nutrient feeding is chemical growing, not organics. You wouldn't expect a guy lying in a hospital bed being fed a nutrient drip to have vibrant health and an invulnerable immune system either. You can go to your garden store and buy a bag of earthworm casings, a bag of fish meal and a bag of kelp, mix this up in a huge tank of water, and use that for watering. Experiment with the concentrations to see what works best; often people use way more fertilizer then they need to, which is a waste. Pretty simple, cheap and organic. Only in origin. Organic growing is a system, what it boils down to is feeding the soil, not the plant. If the soil is healthy the plants look after themselves, much better than you ever can. So-called fertilisers aren't fertilisers, they're just plant nutrients. Organic fertiliser is compost, it's just about the only thing that will reliably fertilise the soil. And it's very easy to make, even in small quantities. No need to buy anything. I do agree that the oil-refinery byproduct chemical fertilizer mixes are best avoided, for many reasons - whether you are gardening on your roof or in an open field. In any case, happy gardening! Indeed, in any case. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] off-topic [Hydroponic gardening]
Err...not sure where all that's coming from. I'll tell you why hydro's the way for me, since apparently it's so horrible or whatever. My yard is entirely surrounded on all sides by overhead vegitation. No portion of my yard gets more than 2-3 hours of direct sun a day, so hydro lets me use my roof. Sure, I could concoct some elaborate system to carry 50lb containers of soil to my roof just so I could have to worry about the rotting effects it would have on my roof, or I could have some 4 lb containers in a series. As for not sustainable, I was just talking to a fellow the other day who uses seaweed and urine as his only 2 nutrients, growing tomatoes and basil in the cement wasteland that is his lot in whatever major urban metropolitan area he has to call him own. Everybody keeps telling him it's not going to work, and he keeps harvesting a rediculous amount of fruit every year. While I'm sure you understand that he could indeed build a planter in the same space, you also understand that the dirt method involves removing additional topsoil from some other location, bringing it where he lives, and replacing it/fertilizing it every year and/or discarding it. How that's any more sustainable than organic hydro, I don't understand. Actually, much like JTF has international projects to keep people fed, there's a large aquaponics group that helps areas of dense population w/ no or poor soil to have a very inexpensive, non-motorized, system of food production vis-a-vis the fish and vegetables grown in the same location. Anyway, had I 15 acres to farm on, I wouldn't use hydro or even advocate it. However, I don't. There are several other benefits too, like handicapped accessibility and whatnot. And...as for propping up the plant in the soil, sure, some systems involve a growth medium, which for the most part are non-composted organic materials, but there are plenty of other systems that don't use any growth media @ all, like NFT and deep water culture. You'll probably take offense to this, but you seem to read way too much into my posts, as in you assume too much. You're probably thinking I'm all about grow lights and grow rooms and what not. No way! I just like summer based, outdoor systems. I can grow 10 tomatoes in just over 27 square feet, and if I feel like moving inside when it gets cold, I can propogage/clone those tomatoes into infinity simply by taking cuttings and rooting them in water. My water usage is about 1 gallon per week per tomato, my nutrient use is 1lb per 100 gallons of water, and since I have full control over the substrata I have 0 worry about fungi, root bugs, etc, and a simple once a week vinegar/water mix keeps the foliar bugs at bay. I cannot see how that's any harder on ol' Mother Earth than a soil garden, especially comparing final pounds of fruit per square foot. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] off-topic [Hydroponic gardening]
the dirt method involves removing additional topsoil from some other location, bringing it where he lives, and replacing it/fertilizing it every year and/or discarding it. Say what? I believe they call the addition of carbonaceous material amending. Some of us just call it adding compost. And yahhh..! If he doesn't generate soil in a natural manner he's going to doctor it with an arsenal of chemicals, essentially leaving it bleached and nearly useless. More chemicals isn't the answer when soil is in such a state. And it certainly isn't the answer in trying to prevent such a state. How that's any more sustainable than organic hydro, I don't understand. Done the way you're suggesting isn't. I can grow 10 tomatoes in just over 27 square feet, You mean tomato plants, right? Not just tomatoes? My water usage is about 1 gallon per week per tomato, That's per plant, isn't it? I cannot see how that's any harder on ol' Mother Earth than a soil garden Did you add all the variables into the equation? The fuel debt to manufacture and ship the fertilizer (perpetual), tubing, tanks and pumps (one time), lights (on going after manufacture) if they're implemented and inevitable replacement parts? And you can't forget the wallet drain of one over the other. Compared to maybe a few trusted friends supplying compostable material from their 27th floor apartment or neighboring brownstone and a little vermiculture? Yup. There's a pretty big difference. Perhaps in some situations hydro is a positive choice. Then again, a community garden in a well lit space over a private garden in an aerial dungeon might be a better choice, even if the notion proves a bit tough to chew for some people. Are you sure there's not some infatuation with herbs clouding your supportive argument? They're an entirely different animal in comparison to primary food crops. Sometimes the better things in life aren't necessarily the techiest. Besides, once established, soil is considerably more maintenance free than hydro as a growing medium, as nature does most of the work. One would think that in this day and age that would be seen as a big plus. Todd Swearingen Evergreen Solutions wrote: Err...not sure where all that's coming from. I'll tell you why hydro's the way for me, since apparently it's so horrible or whatever. My yard is entirely surrounded on all sides by overhead vegitation. No portion of my yard gets more than 2-3 hours of direct sun a day, so hydro lets me use my roof. Sure, I could concoct some elaborate system to carry 50lb containers of soil to my roof just so I could have to worry about the rotting effects it would have on my roof, or I could have some 4 lb containers in a series. As for not sustainable, I was just talking to a fellow the other day who uses seaweed and urine as his only 2 nutrients, growing tomatoes and basil in the cement wasteland that is his lot in whatever major urban metropolitan area he has to call him own. Everybody keeps telling him it's not going to work, and he keeps harvesting a rediculous amount of fruit every year. While I'm sure you understand that he could indeed build a planter in the same space, you also understand that the dirt method involves removing additional topsoil from some other location, bringing it where he lives, and replacing it/fertilizing it every year and/or discarding it. How that's any more sustainable than organic hydro, I don't understand. Actually, much like JTF has international projects to keep people fed, there's a large aquaponics group that helps areas of dense population w/ no or poor soil to have a very inexpensive, non-motorized, system of food production vis-a-vis the fish and vegetables grown in the same location. Anyway, had I 15 acres to farm on, I wouldn't use hydro or even advocate it. However, I don't. There are several other benefits too, like handicapped accessibility and whatnot. And...as for propping up the plant in the soil, sure, some systems involve a growth medium, which for the most part are non-composted organic materials, but there are plenty of other systems that don't use any growth media @ all, like NFT and deep water culture. You'll probably take offense to this, but you seem to read way too much into my posts, as in you assume too much. You're probably thinking I'm all about grow lights and grow rooms and what not. No way! I just like summer based, outdoor systems. I can grow 10 tomatoes in just over 27 square feet, and if I feel like moving inside when it gets cold, I can propogage/clone those tomatoes into infinity simply by taking cuttings and rooting them in water. My water usage is about 1 gallon per week per tomato, my nutrient use is 1lb per 100 gallons of water, and since I have full control over the substrata I have 0 worry about fungi, root bugs, etc, and a simple once a week vinegar/water mix keeps the foliar bugs at bay. I cannot see how that's any harder on ol' Mother Earth than
Re: [Biofuel] off-topic [Hydroponic gardening]
Dear oh dear. Well, let's dump all the dross about where it's coming from, whether it's so horrible, getting offended and reading stuff into what people say. That last sure seems to be what you're doing. I didn't assume anything, I just said what I thought about hydroponics. If you've got room for hydro you've got room for soil and you'll get better results with less maintenance and no pests. And no, hydro is not sustainable, any more than any other kind of chemical farming is sustainable. With snips... snip As for not sustainable, I was just talking to a fellow the other day who uses seaweed and urine as his only 2 nutrients, growing tomatoes and basil in the cement wasteland that is his lot in whatever major urban metropolitan area he has to call him own. Everybody keeps telling him it's not going to work, and he keeps harvesting a rediculous amount of fruit every year. Like I said, you can go on doing it but that doesn't make it sustainable. It makes no difference whether the nutrients are of organic origin or not, the underlying principle is wrong and the system doesn't work no matter which nutrients you use or how much you tinker with it. While I'm sure you understand that he could indeed build a planter in the same space, you also understand that the dirt method involves removing additional topsoil from some other location, bringing it where he lives, and replacing it/fertilizing it every year and/or discarding it. How that's any more sustainable than organic hydro, I don't understand. This is predictable, it's a version of a common sneer that chemicals people like to chuck at organic growers. Usually it's that all organics people are doing is transferring soil fertility from one place to another, and I just wrote something about it in another post: Actually they wouldn't be transferring soil fertility from anywhere. Organic wastes are not soil fertility, they're a product of soil fertility, and left to the waste stream they're probably destined for no useful end or worse. There's double utility in using imported wastes as inputs, it diverts them from a wasteful waste stream, and indeed it's your duty if you can do it, Reduce, Recycle, Reuse. Then the wastes are used as the raw materials to manufacture real soil fertility on-site, often where there wasn't much before, if any. Actually, much like JTF has international projects to keep people fed, there's a large aquaponics group that helps areas of dense population w/ no or poor soil to have a very inexpensive, non-motorized, system of food production vis-a-vis the fish and vegetables grown in the same location. Soil is just the raw material - fertile soil is something you BUILD, not just mere happenstance. Even if there wasn't any there in the first place. If you want to know how to grow fish integrated with food production ask any Chinese farmer. Or look at this: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_pond.html Aquaculture for small farmers: Journey to Forever snip I can grow 10 tomatoes in just over 27 square feet, and if I feel like moving inside when it gets cold, I can propogage/clone those tomatoes into infinity simply by taking cuttings and rooting them in water. Well, if you want to play who's bigger, or smaller or whatever, we grew 8 tomato plants in 8 sq ft in Hong Kong in compost and beach sand over rubble, we paid no attention to nutrient levels, we fed the plants nothing, they were 15 ft tall, had HUGE yields of GREAT-tasting tomatoes and they had no pests. Bugs bugs bugs, LOL! Your concerns are the true badge of the amateur. We grew other great crops in soil on top of bare cement. If you understand soil you can grow great food anywhere. snip Like I said there's nothing new about hydroponics. It was based on the wrong principles 150 years ago and they're still the wrong principles. Here's something from our website that explains why quite well, followed by a couple of rare quotes from the great chemist Justus von Liebig, the founder of chemical farming upon whose work in the mid-19th century the entire edifice still depends. Read on... http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/howard_memorial.html#Lutman The Scientific Work of Sir Albert Howard By B. F. Lutman, Professor Emeritus -- University of Vermont Organic Gardening Magazine (Vol. 13, No. 8), September, 1948 (Sir Albert Howard, Founder of the Organic Farming Movement, died in England in October 1947 at the age of 74.) SIR Albert Howard has finished what may be considered a fortunate life. It was fortunate in that his training and his work seemed to fit his temperament and the aims and ideals that he developed. Too many men are square pegs pushed into round holes, or vice versa. At the best, they are square pegs in square holes which they do not fit. But Sir Albert was, or appeared to be, a square peg which fitted exactly the square hole into which his work had placed him. He must surely be looked upon as a soldier of
Re: [Biofuel] off-topic [Hydroponic gardening]
There really is a range of options available; the main thing is to adapt to your own unique circumstances while using as little energy and material as possible. I like the idea of the guy growing in an urban wasteland - real urban renewal, that is. With drip tubing and very well aerated soil (use 50-75% non-absorbant material; perlite or coconut husks can be used) you can grow plants in fairly small containers with daily watering and minimal effort (drip tubing is really optional); note that in this case you have to continually add nutrients to the water since there is little available in the soil material. This is a completely different prospect from a farmer who rotates crops and continually adds manure/seaweed to fallow fields, etc. If you are stuck in a city with no other options, the above strategy minimizes your use of soil, and you don't have to bother will all that hydro equipment. The planting mix can be recycled crop after crop, as well, with maybe a little fresh slow-release organic soil amendment now and then. It all comes down to nutrients - using organic fertilizers is the way to go. You can go to your garden store and buy a bag of earthworm casings, a bag of fish meal and a bag of kelp, mix this up in a huge tank of water, and use that for watering. Experiment with the concentrations to see what works best; often people use way more fertilizer then they need to, which is a waste. Pretty simple, cheap and organic. I do agree that the oil-refinery byproduct chemical fertilizer mixes are best avoided, for many reasons - whether you are gardening on your roof or in an open field. In any case, happy gardening! [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Evergreen Solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Err...not sure where all that's coming from. I'll tell you why hydro's the way for me, since apparently it's so horrible or whatever. My yard is entirely surrounded on all sides by overhead vegitation. No portion of my yard gets more than 2-3 hours of direct sun a day, so hydro lets me use my roof. Sure, I could concoct some elaborate system to carry 50lb containers of soil to my roof just so I could have to worry about the rotting effects it would have on my roof, or I could have some 4 lb containers in a series. As for not sustainable, I was just talking to a fellow the other day who uses seaweed and urine as his only 2 nutrients, growing tomatoes and basil in the cement wasteland that is his lot in whatever major urban metropolitan area he has to call him own. Everybody keeps telling him it's not going to work, and he keeps harvesting a rediculous amount of fruit every year. While I'm sure you understand that he could indeed build a planter in the same space, you also understand that the dirt method involves removing additional topsoil from some other location, bringing it where he lives, and replacing it/fertilizing it every year and/or discarding it. How that's any more sustainable than organic hydro, I don't understand. Actually, much like JTF has international projects to keep people fed, there's a large aquaponics group that helps areas of dense population w/ no or poor soil to have a very inexpensive, non-motorized, system of food production vis-a-vis the fish and vegetables grown in the same location. Anyway, had I 15 acres to farm on, I wouldn't use hydro or even advocate it. However, I don't. There are several other benefits too, like handicapped accessibility and whatnot. And...as for propping up the plant in the soil, sure, some systems involve a growth medium, which for the most part are non-composted organic materials, but there are plenty of other systems that don't use any growth media @ all, like NFT and deep water culture. You'll probably take offense to this, but you seem to read way too much into my posts, as in you assume too much. You're probably thinking I'm all about grow lights and grow rooms and what not. No way! I just like summer based, outdoor systems. I can grow 10 tomatoes in just over 27 square feet, and if I feel like moving inside when it gets cold, I can propogage/clone those tomatoes into infinity simply by taking cuttings and rooting them in water. My water usage is about 1 gallon per week per tomato, my nutrient use is 1lb per 100 gallons of water, and since I have full control over the substrata I have 0 worry about fungi, root bugs, etc, and a simple once a week vinegar/water mix keeps the foliar bugs at bay. I cannot see how that's any harder on ol' Mother Earth than a soil garden, especially comparing final pounds of fruit per square foot. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] off-topic [Hydroponic gardening]
Hi Peter There really is a range of options available; the main thing is to adapt to your own unique circumstances while using as little energy and material as possible. I like the idea of the guy growing in an urban wasteland - real urban renewal, that is. Urban wastelands the world over are riddled with city farms and greening projects these days, no need to go wrong-tech about it. Lots here: http://journeytoforever.org/cityfarm.html City farms This is quite a nice project: http://journeytoforever.org/garden_con-mexico.html Organic food production in the slums of Mexico City With drip tubing and very well aerated soil (use 50-75% non-absorbant material; perlite or coconut husks can be used) you can grow plants in fairly small containers with daily watering and minimal effort (drip tubing is really optional); note that in this case you have to continually add nutrients to the water since there is little available in the soil material. This is a completely different prospect from a farmer who rotates crops and continually adds manure/seaweed to fallow fields, etc. If you are stuck in a city with no other options, the above strategy minimizes your use of soil, and you don't have to bother will all that hydro equipment. The planting mix can be recycled crop after crop, as well, with maybe a little fresh slow-release organic soil amendment now and then. Why minimise the use of soil? Use soil, make compost, have great crops and no problems. It all comes down to nutrients - using organic fertilizers is the way to go. Sorry to disagree, but nutrients aren't the way to go, whatever the source. Do it organically and you never have to bother about nutrients. It makes little difference if the nutrients are organic or not, nutrient feeding is chemical growing, not organics. You wouldn't expect a guy lying in a hospital bed being fed a nutrient drip to have vibrant health and an invulnerable immune system either. You can go to your garden store and buy a bag of earthworm casings, a bag of fish meal and a bag of kelp, mix this up in a huge tank of water, and use that for watering. Experiment with the concentrations to see what works best; often people use way more fertilizer then they need to, which is a waste. Pretty simple, cheap and organic. Only in origin. Organic growing is a system, what it boils down to is feeding the soil, not the plant. If the soil is healthy the plants look after themselves, much better than you ever can. So-called fertilisers aren't fertilisers, they're just plant nutrients. Organic fertiliser is compost, it's just about the only thing that will reliably fertilise the soil. And it's very easy to make, even in small quantities. No need to buy anything. I do agree that the oil-refinery byproduct chemical fertilizer mixes are best avoided, for many reasons - whether you are gardening on your roof or in an open field. In any case, happy gardening! Indeed, in any case. Best Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Evergreen Solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Err...not sure where all that's coming from. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] off-topic [Hydroponic gardening]
Just wondering if anyone out there is into hydroponics. I'm getting more into it myself, hoping to find a mentor w/ a little more experience. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
Hi Jason i didnt get the impression that kieth was MAD at me... I definitely wasn't mad at you, I wasn't mad at anyone. where did they come up with that? he said what he was thinking on the subject and went his merry way, whatever these Abbott folks are drinking/smoking they need to share it, because it would make my day at work S much easier. hehehe ;) LOL! Ulp... Trouble is I think you're right. The experts say narcotic addiction is as much about behaviour as about chemicals and in fact it doesn't even need the chemicals, you can get addicted to sex and telephones and stuff. And TV. And cherished notions. Don't smoke that stuff, it's not good for you! Anyway I think this anger tactic is slimy, I've got no respect for someone who does that. It's quite common these days, there's probably a technical name for it by now. Somebody else just did the same thing, in an offlist discussion, not a list member, I didn't agree with him so he said I'm filled with anger. Not only that he reckons he was being nice about it, he said I'd used all the anger I carry about with me along with my reporter's skills to build Journey to Forever into a great project that's really making changes. That gave me the creeps - how can you build anything useful with anger??? It doesn't build, it destroys. Journey to Forever's made of love and obligation, for heaven's sake. Sure enough, he's defending some of the same cherished notions as Ed of Montana. Yeah right, anger creates, just like invading armies protect people. As far as Ed's concerned and no matter what, the soldiers of American occupying armies deserve our sympathy because they protect people who're trying to kill them, and a few million slaughtered gooks and ragheads just don't matter at all. He's no better than his masters who he hates so much, my favourite chicken's more human than either of them. So what do you do with people who shut themselves off from reality like that? Bill Blum says this in his current Anti-Empire Report: Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens. Friedrich Schiller With stupidity, even the gods struggle in vain. I'm often told by readers of their encounters with Americans who support the outrages of US foreign policy no matter what facts are presented to them, no matter what arguments are made, no matter how much the government's statements are shown to be false. They include amongst their number those who still believe that Iraq had a direct involvement in the events of September 11, that Saddam Hussein had close ties to al Qaeda, and/or that weapons of mass destruction were indeed found in Iraq after the 2003 invasion. My advice is to forget such people. They would support the outrages even if the government came to their homes, seized their first born, and hauled them away screaming, as long as the government assured them it was essential to fighting terrorism (or communism). My (very) rough guess is that they constitute no more than 15 percent of the population. I suggest that we concentrate on the rest, who are reachable. http://members.aol.com/bblum6/aer31.htm Anti-Empire Report, March 22, 2006 I completely agree. Only they're not stupid, just brainwashed, as Tom said. Which is probably worse. Bit difficult to ignore them though when they sneak in behind their wife's skirts like that and start slinging mindless insults at people. Funny, that's what I asked Ed to imagine, how grateful he'd be if someone blew up his home and shot his wife and kids in order to protect them. By the way, just to cheer us all up (not!), Ed's message about how we all owe whatever relative peace and safety we might enjoy to American soldiers who died for us got a response from a member named Wayne who's been here about a year, his first-ever post: I say PULL OUR TROOPS AND NUKE THE MIDDLE EAST Aarghhh! His first post and last, it got spiked and so did Wayne. Try to imagine him tucking his children in at night and singing them a lullaby. Ever onward... GO KIETH!!, GO JASON! LOL! Regards Keith jason - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' From: regina abbott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Continued participation in Biofuel list. Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:19:21 -0600 My apology to all for the way I went about things is being held hostage by Kieth. I sent it in before I opened his and your emails. It would be a nice gesture for all to hear this. But after all the ranting and raving that Keith did in his email and then carrying his anger onto the list at approximately the same time against Jason, I very much doubt that he would do that unless I become what he wants me to be. Never! Never! Never! He can keep his attitude and his list. We no longer want any part of either
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
So what do you do with people who shut themselves off from reality like that? Well us Brits and the Americans seem to make them our leaders. Chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
Support the Troops, not the Policy. I dont believe that the soldiers from any country are working FOR their government, they are working for the fact that they need to support their families, and the military, crappy a job though it may be, will still pay rent and put food out for their kids. When one of my friends joined the US army, he did it to pay for college, before 9-11, and long before the plans for the Afghan, or Iraqi invasions were even public knowledge. Then he got screwed into going overseas and operating a patriot missile battery because his enlistment wasn't up yet, not because he wanted to support the government. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
, naturally and understandably enough, (a) your daughter, the only survivor, sends the heavy dude a box of chocolates on St Valentine's Day; or (b) you and everyone you know tell the guy to stop it and go home but he won't listen and keeps on doing it, so you get hold of a gun and start shooting back. Almost all Iraqis have been trying every way they know how for three years to tell you to stop protecting them and go home. Why don't you listen? I think your problem is that you can't see anything because you've got a flag wrapped round your head. You're shooting at a target that doesn't exist. We make a strong distinction between Washington and Americans, so does the whole world, even still. Nations and flags are about power and manipulation, not about people and their communities. False flags are the only kind there is. Why don't you open your eyes at last? Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Hello Keith This is E in Montana. All of these things you cite about possible atrocities are disgusting and regrettable like most everything else in war. But what about the soldiers? As in Vietnam the people they are there to protect are also trying to kill them. By the way the E stands for ED, my wife and I shared an email address when we joined the list. I spent 14 months in Vietnam in the Marines. I think that qualifies me to know how a lot of these guys feel. It is no fun to spend every day waiting for a sniper bullet to end your life or to have it ended by a bomb planted by say a 3 year old child. It does something to you! It does something to you to be a survivor . You never forget the ones that died and those that wish they had. And they, like us from Vietnam, get to live with the FACT that it was all over the money grabbing corrupt politicians. You try to remember that you served your country not the thieves running it. Also my previous post was meant to have very little to dowith this one. It was meant for the many anti-American remarks made in previous weeks.Before you condemn a soldier, try to put yourself in his shoes. You may find some grace for him.I am not condoning murder. P.S. Don't knock our country. Do as you wish with our corrupt politicians!!! From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 05:37:29 +0900 A link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2090849,00.html US Marines investigated for Iraq war crimes - World - Times Online March 17, 2006 By Jenny Booth and agencies About a dozen US Marines are being investigated for possible war crimes after the deaths last year of 15 Iraqi civilians caught in the crossfire during a gun battle with insurgents. Also: http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12379.htm US raid on home killed 11 family members By Amer Amery 03/16/06 - TIKRIT, Iraq, March 15 (Reuters) - Eleven members of an Iraqi family were killed in a U.S. raid on Wednesday, police and witnesses said. The U.S. military said two women and a child died during the bid to seize an al Qaeda militant from a house. A senior Iraqi police officer said autopsies on the bodies, which included five children, showed each had been shot in the head. Community leaders said they were outraged at the killings and demanded an explanation from the U.S. military. ... http://snipurl.com/nwz2 Telegraph | News | SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent (Filed: 12/03/2006) An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the illegal tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces. After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces. http://eatthestate.org/10-14/ConquerDivide.htm Conquer and Divide (March 16, 2006) The 48-page Beyond Abu-Ghraib: Detention and Torture in Iraq was virtually ignored by US media, and that's a shame. Its findings, based on extensive interviews with (among others) Iraq's prisoners, former prisoners, and their families, directly implicate Washington in Icurrent/I human rights abuses, and go a long way toward explaining why a continuing US troop presence in Iraq, far from keeping a lid on civil war, is actually making the violence, sectarian and otherwise, far worse. http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde140012006 Iraq: Beyond Abu Ghraib: Detention and torture in Iraq - Amnesty International 6 March 2006 According to Amnesty International, the US-led occupation forces continue to use torture in Iraq. The US and UK have ignored their obligations under international law and have
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
Hello All, I think far too many people get their information from the boob tube. Very few people begin their discussion of the current war in Iraq with its starting point at around 1980. I have talked with more than a few of my countrymen and many still think this is a war caused by Saddam Hussein´s insane attempt to use WMD´s against us and his links with international terror. Where did they get these ideas? I believe television mostly or one of the corporate media outlets. If the only news one gets is from these sources you cannot help from being……. well brainwashed. I really wish there was another word for it. Misinformed is too weak. How else can it be explained that I and my people accepted a pre-emptive war? Think about that concept. The greatest military power in the world is going to attack you because at some time in the future you may be a threat to us. New York and Washington were not attacked by Iraq but because Saddam isn´t a nice guy and may have thought about such attacks let´s go kill him. Insane, ridiculous, oversimplified, definitely and yet we swallowed it hook, line and sinker. How else other than being brainwashed can it be explained? Stupidity…..no, there are plenty of smart Americans. Laziness….no, Americans work like ants. Correct me if I´m wrong but the concept of working 24/7 comes from the American lexicon. Perhaps that´s part of the brainwashing, too. But I digress. If pre-emptive war is your moral starting point all of the other war crimes follow in its path. When we Americans did not stand up and say no to pre-emptive war there can be no blaming of soldiers for acts of atrocity. The huge atrocity has already been permitted by a ¨ free society ¨. How can anyone blame young soldiers in a war zone for their actions. They are merely the minor reflection of the crimes we have already committed. Get our children out of harms way now! Not next year or 5 months from now but now. Begin this week. We shouldn´t have gone there. It was wrong! Just get out completely. No bases, no carrier strike force, no submarine launched cruise missles. Anything else is just a mistake. Any force left behind will be abused. Get out now, get out quickly and beg for forgiveness cause we have certainly done incredible harm. Tom From: regina abbott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 19:18:03 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Hello KeithThis is E in Montana. All of these things you cite about possible atrocities are disgusting and regrettable like most everything else in war. But what about the soldiers? As in Vietnam the people they are there to protect are also trying to kill them. By the way the E stands for ED, my wife and I shared an email address when we joined the list. I spent 14 months in Vietnam in the Marines. I think that qualifies me to know how a lot of these guys feel. It is no fun to spend every day waiting for a sniper bullet to end your life or to have it ended by a bomb planted by say a 3 year old child. It does something to you! It does something to you to be a "survivor" . You never forget the ones that died and those that wish they had. And they, like us from Vietnam, get to live with the "FACT" that it was all over the money grabbing corrupt politicians. You try to remember that you served your country not the thieves running it. Also my previous post was meant to have very little to dowith this one. It was meant for the many anti-American remarks made in previous weeks. Before you condemn a soldier, try to put yourself in his shoes. You may find some grace for him. I am not condoning murder. P.S. Don't knock our country. Do as you wish with our corrupt politicians!!! From:Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject:Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'Date:Wed, 22 Mar 2006 05:37:29 +0900A link:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2090849,00.htmlUS Marines investigated for Iraq war crimes - World - Times OnlineMarch 17, 2006By Jenny Booth and agenciesAbout a dozen US Marines are being investigated for possible warcrimes after the deaths last year of 15 Iraqi civilians caught in thecrossfire during a gun battle with insurgents.Also:http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12379.htmUS raid on home killed 11 family membersBy Amer Amery03/16/06 - TIKRIT, Iraq, March 15 (Reuters) - Eleven members of anIraqi family were killed in a U.S. raid on Wednesday, police andwitnesses said. The U.S. military said two women and a child diedduring the bid to seize an al Qaeda militant from a house. A seniorIraqi police officer said autopsies on the bodies, which includedfive children, showed each had been shot in the head. Communityleaders said they were outraged at the killings and demanded anexplanation from the U.S. military. ...http://snipurl.com/nwz2Telegraph | News | SA
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
Hello Jason Support the Troops, not the Policy. What's the difference? Support guns but not shooting? What sense does that make? I dont believe that the soldiers from any country are working FOR their government, they are working for the fact that they need to support their families, and the military, crappy a job though it may be, will still pay rent and put food out for their kids. They ARE working for their government, and describing it as a crappy job is disingenuous - unlike all other jobs, their job, which they signed up for and agreed to do and were trained to do, whatever else they thought they might get out of it, is to kill people. When one of my friends joined the US army, he did it to pay for college, before 9-11, and long before the plans for the Afghan, or Iraqi invasions were even public knowledge. Then he got screwed into going overseas and operating a patriot missile battery because his enlistment wasn't up yet, not because he wanted to support the government. It doesn't matter what he wanted. He knew what he was getting into, he took a chance, he hoped he'd get it for nothing but then he had to pay up on his side of the deal. That wasn't just an outisde chance, the US is almost always at war somewhere or other. Now just why his choices in life were so narrowed down, or anyway that's how it seemed to him and it's almost certainly true, that's a whole other subject, no? You're welcome to discuss it, it's been discussed before, but it doesn't justify what you're trying to make it justify. Even so, narrowed choices and all, he might not have been so quick to fall for the whole line he was fed if he hadn't had flags waved in his face all his life and all the myths of military glory and honour shoved down his throat. If he gets killed, that'll be very sad, what a waste, but most people are more concerned about the victims he'll have helped to kill, and he did that simply by joining up. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
in *their* shoes: You're trying to go about your daily business in peace and goodwill like everyone else when this heavy looking dude comes up to you, waves a gun in your face and says he's there to protect you, then he starts shooting your wife and children and blows up your house. So, naturally and understandably enough, (a) your daughter, the only survivor, sends the heavy dude a box of chocolates on St Valentine's Day; or (b) you and everyone you know tell the guy to stop it and go home but he won't listen and keeps on doing it, so you get hold of a gun and start shooting back. Almost all Iraqis have been trying every way they know how for three years to tell you to stop protecting them and go home. Why don't you listen? I think your problem is that you can't see anything because you've got a flag wrapped round your head. You're shooting at a target that doesn't exist. We make a strong distinction between Washington and Americans, so does the whole world, even still. Nations and flags are about power and manipulation, not about people and their communities. False flags are the only kind there is. Why don't you open your eyes at last? Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Hello Keith This is E in Montana. All of these things you cite about possible atrocities are disgusting and regrettable like most everything else in war. But what about the soldiers? As in Vietnam the people they are there to protect are also trying to kill them. By the way the E stands for ED, my wife and I shared an email address when we joined the list. I spent 14 months in Vietnam in the Marines. I think that qualifies me to know how a lot of these guys feel. It is no fun to spend every day waiting for a sniper bullet to end your life or to have it ended by a bomb planted by say a 3 year old child. It does something to you! It does something to you to be a survivor . You never forget the ones that died and those that wish they had. And they, like us from Vietnam, get to live with the FACT that it was all over the money grabbing corrupt politicians. You try to remember that you served your country not the thieves running it. Also my previous post was meant to have very little to dowith this one. It was meant for the many anti-American remarks made in previous weeks.Before you condemn a soldier, try to put yourself in his shoes. You may find some grace for him.I am not condoning murder. P.S. Don't knock our country. Do as you wish with our corrupt politicians!!! From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 05:37:29 +0900 A link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2090849,00.html US Marines investigated for Iraq war crimes - World - Times Online March 17, 2006 By Jenny Booth and agencies About a dozen US Marines are being investigated for possible war crimes after the deaths last year of 15 Iraqi civilians caught in the crossfire during a gun battle with insurgents. Also: http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12379.htm US raid on home killed 11 family members By Amer Amery 03/16/06 - TIKRIT, Iraq, March 15 (Reuters) - Eleven members of an Iraqi family were killed in a U.S. raid on Wednesday, police and witnesses said. The U.S. military said two women and a child died during the bid to seize an al Qaeda militant from a house. A senior Iraqi police officer said autopsies on the bodies, which included five children, showed each had been shot in the head. Community leaders said they were outraged at the killings and demanded an explanation from the U.S. military. ... http://snipurl.com/nwz2 Telegraph | News | SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent (Filed: 12/03/2006) An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the illegal tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces. After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces. http://eatthestate.org/10-14/ConquerDivide.htm Conquer and Divide (March 16, 2006) The 48-page Beyond Abu-Ghraib: Detention and Torture in Iraq was virtually ignored by US media, and that's a shame. Its findings, based on extensive interviews with (among others) Iraq's prisoners, former prisoners, and their families, directly implicate Washington in Icurrent/I human rights abuses, and go a long way toward explaining why a continuing US troop presence in Iraq, far from keeping a lid on civil war, is actually making the violence, sectarian and otherwise, far worse. http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde140012006 Iraq: Beyond Abu
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
This is certainly a tangled web of deception and accountability.The left calls it a "poverty draft" when recruiters take advantage of inner citykids and sell them the whole "serve your country and yourself by learning a useful vocation or paying for college in the military".Those on the far leftfind it analogous to capitalism where the government actively finds ways to maintain a certain percentage of poor people who's options can be made limited in order to maintain both a labor pool and and a source for recruits.Propaganda: Watch the commercials. They used to say "Be all you can be". now it's "An army of one" (which the anti-war movement prefers - afteradding an "n"). The military is the ONLY commercial which advertises training for an occupation without showing someone working in that occupation (i.e. killing someone).I'mclose to themilitary
recruitment interventions happening inmy areaand I can tell you that the prospects who approach the recruiting table are most often seen as the victim of a campaign of disinformation and economic circumstance. This is especially true of the men and women who join the National Guard or Coast Guard with the understanding that theywould stay in-country, defending it from attack. I'm sure some of you have heard the stories that recruiters tell in order to maintain their quotas.Sure, there are those who are fully aware of what they are getting into but, how do you distinguish one from the other?I participated in interventions on college campuses and came acrossthose who don't hesitate to tell you that they joined the military to smack down anyone whoquestions what some feel isthe destiny of the US ("the white man's burden"). I actually had a Marine tell me that he is an "ideological
imperialist". By the way, take a second to guess what this person looks like. If you saidCaucasian male, good for you!As I'm sure you are aware, the anti-war movement has one purpose but many objectives. One of them is prevention.This means "un-muddying the waters" and making clear that your primarymission in the military is to kill peopleand to do so without playing a roll in deciding who that might be.Peace,MikeKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello JasonSupport the Troops, not the Policy.What's the difference? Support guns but not shooting? What sense does that make?I dont believe that the soldiers from any country are working FOR
theirgovernment, they are working for the fact that they need to support theirfamilies, and the military, crappy a job though it may be, will still payrent and put food out for their kids.They ARE working for their government, and describing it as a "crappy" job is disingenuous - unlike all other jobs, their "job", which they signed up for and agreed to do and were trained to do, whatever else they thought they might get out of it, is to kill people.When one of my friends joined the USarmy, he did it to pay for college, before 9-11, and long before the plansfor the Afghan, or Iraqi invasions were even public knowledge. Then he gotscrewed into going overseas and operating a patriot missile battery becausehis enlistment wasn't up yet, not because he wanted to support thegovernment.It doesn't matter what he wanted. He knew what he was getting into, he took a chance, he hoped
he'd get it for nothing but then he had to pay up on his side of the deal. That wasn't just an outisde chance, the US is almost always at war somewhere or other.Now just why his choices in life were so narrowed down, or anyway that's how it seemed to him and it's almost certainly true, that's a whole other subject, no? You're welcome to discuss it, it's been discussed before, but it doesn't justify what you're trying to make it justify.Even so, narrowed choices and all, he might not have been so quick to fall for the whole line he was fed if he hadn't had flags waved in his face all his life and all the myths of military glory and honour shoved down his throat.If he gets killed, that'll be very sad, what a waste, but most people are more concerned about the victims he'll have helped to kill, and he did that simply by joining up.BestKeith___
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Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
out completely. No bases, no carrier strike force, no submarine launched cruise missles. Anything else is just a mistake. Any force left behind will be abused. Get out now, get out quickly and beg for forgiveness cause we have certainly done incredible harm. Tom From: regina abbott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 19:18:03 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Hello Keith This is E in Montana. All of these things you cite about possible atrocities are disgusting and regrettable like most everything else in war. But what about the soldiers? As in Vietnam the people they are there to protect are also trying to kill them. By the way the E stands for ED, my wife and I shared an email address when we joined the list. I spent 14 months in Vietnam in the Marines. I think that qualifies me to know how a lot of these guys feel. It is no fun to spend every day waiting for a sniper bullet to end your life or to have it ended by a bomb planted by say a 3 year old child. It does something to you! It does something to you to be a survivor . You never forget the ones that died and those that wish they had. And they, like us from Vietnam, get to live with the FACT that it was all over the money grabbing corrupt politicians. You try to remember that you served your country not the thieves running it. Also my previous post was meant to have very little to dowith this one. It was meant for the many anti-American remarks made in previous weeks.Before you condemn a soldier, try to put yourself in his shoes. You may find some grace for him.I am not condoning murder. P.S. Don't knock our country. Do as you wish with our corrupt politicians!!! From: Keith Addison mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 05:37:29 +0900 A link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2090849,00.htmlhttp: //www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2090849,00.html US Marines investigated for Iraq war crimes - World - Times Online March 17, 2006 By Jenny Booth and agencies About a dozen US Marines are being investigated for possible war crimes after the deaths last year of 15 Iraqi civilians caught in the crossfire during a gun battle with insurgents. Also: http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12379.htmhttp://infor mationclearinghouse.info/article12379.htm US raid on home killed 11 family members By Amer Amery 03/16/06 - TIKRIT, Iraq, March 15 (Reuters) - Eleven members of an Iraqi family were killed in a U.S. raid on Wednesday, police and witnesses said. The U.S. military said two women and a child died during the bid to seize an al Qaeda militant from a house. A senior Iraqi police officer said autopsies on the bodies, which included five children, showed each had been shot in the head. Community leaders said they were outraged at the killings and demanded an explanation from the U.S. military. ... http://snipurl.com/nwz2http://snipurl.com/nwz2 Telegraph | News | SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent (Filed: 12/03/2006) An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the illegal tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces. After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces. http://eatthestate.org/10-14/ConquerDivide.htmhttp://eatthestate. org/10-14/ConquerDivide.htm Conquer and Divide (March 16, 2006) The 48-page Beyond Abu-Ghraib: Detention and Torture in Iraq was virtually ignored by US media, and that's a shame. Its findings, based on extensive interviews with (among others) Iraq's prisoners, former prisoners, and their families, directly implicate Washington in Icurrent/I human rights abuses, and go a long way toward explaining why a continuing US troop presence in Iraq, far from keeping a lid on civil war, is actually making the violence, sectarian and otherwise, far worse. http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde140012006http://web.am nesty.org/library/index/engmde140012006 Iraq: Beyond Abu Ghraib: Detention and torture in Iraq - Amnesty International 6 March 2006 According to Amnesty International, the US-led occupation forces continue to use torture in Iraq. The US and UK have ignored their obligations under international law and have attached insufficient weight to human rights considerations. Iraqi detainees are held without trial or sentence, and Iraqi authorities have continued a pattern initiated
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
running it. Also my previous post was meant to have very little to dowith this one. It was meant for the many anti-American remarks made in previous weeks.Before you condemn a soldier, try to put yourself in his shoes. You may find some grace for him.I am not condoning murder. P.S. Don't knock our country. Do as you wish with our corrupt politicians!!! From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 05:37:29 +0900 A link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2090849,00.html US Marines investigated for Iraq war crimes - World - Times Online March 17, 2006 By Jenny Booth and agencies About a dozen US Marines are being investigated for possible war crimes after the deaths last year of 15 Iraqi civilians caught in the crossfire during a gun battle with insurgents. Also: http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12379.htm US raid on home killed 11 family members By Amer Amery 03/16/06 - TIKRIT, Iraq, March 15 (Reuters) - Eleven members of an Iraqi family were killed in a U.S. raid on Wednesday, police and witnesses said. The U.S. military said two women and a child died during the bid to seize an al Qaeda militant from a house. A senior Iraqi police officer said autopsies on the bodies, which included five children, showed each had been shot in the head. Community leaders said they were outraged at the killings and demanded an explanation from the U.S. military. ... http://snipurl.com/nwz2 Telegraph | News | SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent (Filed: 12/03/2006) An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the illegal tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces. After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces. http://eatthestate.org/10-14/ConquerDivide.htm Conquer and Divide (March 16, 2006) The 48-page Beyond Abu-Ghraib: Detention and Torture in Iraq was virtually ignored by US media, and that's a shame. Its findings, based on extensive interviews with (among others) Iraq's prisoners, former prisoners, and their families, directly implicate Washington in Icurrent/I human rights abuses, and go a long way toward explaining why a continuing US troop presence in Iraq, far from keeping a lid on civil war, is actually making the violence, sectarian and otherwise, far worse. http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde140012006 Iraq: Beyond Abu Ghraib: Detention and torture in Iraq - Amnesty International 6 March 2006 According to Amnesty International, the US-led occupation forces continue to use torture in Iraq. The US and UK have ignored their obligations under international law and have attached insufficient weight to human rights considerations. Iraqi detainees are held without trial or sentence, and Iraqi authorities have continued a pattern initiated by the US in systematically violating detainees' rights. http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/33768/ Chaos Accomplished By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted March 20, 2006. Three years after the U.S. invasion, a snapshot of Iraq reveals a country that is miles from anything resembling a 'road to progress.' http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/33771/ Welcome to Liberated Iraq By Entesar Mohammad Ariabi, AlterNet. Posted March 20, 2006. From a physician's viewpoint, liberation means rising infant mortality, critical shortages of medicines, terrorized doctors and the return of diseases once under control. Editor's Note: The following are the remarks of Dr. Entissar Mohammad Ariabi, a pharmacist from Yarmook Hospital who is part of an Iraqi women's delegation touring the U.S., organized by CODEPINK and Global Exchange. She spoke on March 18 in West Palm Beach, Florida. Number Of Iraqi Civilians Slaughtered In America's War? As Many As 250,000 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11674.htm Number of U.S. Military Personnel Slaughtered (Officially acknowledged) In Bush's War 2318 http://icasualties.org/oif/ The War in Iraq Costs $248,822,016,155 See the cost in your community http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapperItemid=182 'Iraq was awash in cash. We played football with bricks of $100 bills' At the beginning of the Iraq war, the UN entrusted $23bn of Iraqi money to the US-led coalition to redevelop the country. With the infrastructure of the country still in ruins, where has all that money gone? Callum Macrae and Ali Fadhil on one of the greatest financial
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
O.K...so much for giving the benefit of the doubt.Your response was better measured than I thought Todd. I read therecent post in this thread and the following quote got my attention:" E ED" in Montana wrote: "It will be in realitive saftey because of American soldiers that died for you to be able to doso."Relative to what " E ED" in Montana?You don't think that the US makes the world a more dangerous place?You think that placing nuclear missiles in Turkey didn't provoke the Cuban missile crisis or that having the vast majority of WMD's in the world, then pointing the finger at others is a way to promote peace?http://www.zmag.org/Instructionals/ForeignPolicy/id101_m.htm You don't think that a US attack against aSoviet sub almost caused the Northern hemisphere to become a radioactive wasteland? You don't think there were US submarines off the Russian coast provoking a war?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Alexandrovich_ArkhipovYou think that acts of aggression against Cuba (i.e. Operation Mongoose, Operation North Woods, etc.) was an effort to keep the American people informed and find a diplomatic and peaceful resolution in the region?You don't think that in 1964, the provocation in the Bay of Tonkin was meant todraw us into a war with North Vietnam?Youthink that John Negroponte was sent to Honduras, Nicaragua and Iraq to help democracy flourish? http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/27/1435207http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_NegroponteYou think that the School of the Americas is a school for diplomacy?http://www.soaw.org/new/Do Israeli soldiers (the military of one of our biggest allies) feel they are making their country safer by killing children? Does the US feel they are making the region safer by turning a blind eye when both Turkey and Israel have as many security council violations as Saddam Hussein's Iraq? http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/special-edition/terrorism50/unresolu.htmhttp://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A4BD8038-8970-4542-9E9C-E4FD18C11051.htmYou think John Bolton was sent to the UN to make friends?http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0413-21.htmhttp://www.whatreallyhappened.com/USveto.htmlhttp://www.globalpolicy.org/security/membship/uspol/archindx.htmWhy do you suppose our "friends", Turkey and Columbia receive such huge foreign aid packages while being such huge human rights violators? Hell why stop there? Ask the same question about our other friends, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Have you ever wondered what logic they use in picking friends?Why does the US government preach free elections, then condemn some of the freely elected presidents of some countries without having evidence that they did anything wrong?http://www.thepanamanews.com/pn/v_11/issue_05/review_02.htmlThere is no one in the world as good as our federal government when it comes to fabricating fear, an enemy, and an excuse for war.MikeAppal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peace ( ONLY WON IN BATTLE)Ya' gotta' kill em' to make em' kind, eh?:-)And we all know what happens when "the other side" drinks from the same trough of reasoning, don't we?As for soldiers being the linchpin of everything we have at our "disposal" today? A part of? Yes. The epicenter? No.As well, take a look around and ask yourself if maybe there are a few "things" we would be better off without and if the world might be a better place if we hadn't been afforded much of what we don't need at the expense of so canon fodder.Todd Swearingenregina abbott wrote: Hello Mike ,Todd This is " E ED" in Montana. Do you realize that most anywhere you sit down to sip your whatever and make degrading statements, in HARMONY I'M SURE, about American citizens. It will be in realitive saftey because of American soldiers that died for you to be able to do so. It would be less confusing if my posts were posted. Sorry Todd I sent yours twice but Keith will probably catch it. You all just have a great evening and remember it is due to some American soldier that you are able to. Peace ( ONLY WON IN BATTLE) [snip]___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
Mike you are doing such a good job there's nothing left for me to say here :) LOL It's ok I have my George Bush " war criminal" shirt on today so I am still getting my word in today! Joe Michael Redler wrote: O.K...so much for giving the benefit of the doubt. Your response was better measured than I thought Todd. I read therecent post in this thread and the following quote got my attention: " E ED" in Montana wrote: "It will be in realitive saftey because of American soldiers that died for you to be able to doso." Relative to what " E ED" in Montana? You don't think that the US makes the world a more dangerous place? You think that placing nuclear missiles in Turkey didn't provoke the Cuban missile crisis or that having the vast majority of WMD's in the world, then pointing the finger at others is a way to promote peace? http://www.zmag.org/Instructionals/ForeignPolicy/id101_m.htm You don't think that a US attack against aSoviet sub almost caused the Northern hemisphere to become a radioactive wasteland? You don't think there were US submarines off the Russian coast provoking a war? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Alexandrovich_Arkhipov You think that acts of aggression against Cuba (i.e. Operation Mongoose, Operation North Woods, etc.) was an effort to keep the American people informed and find a diplomatic and peaceful resolution in the region? You don't think that in 1964, the provocation in the Bay of Tonkin was meant todraw us into a war with North Vietnam? Youthink that John Negroponte was sent to Honduras, Nicaragua and Iraq to help democracy flourish? http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/27/1435207 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Negroponte You think that the School of the Americas is a school for diplomacy? http://www.soaw.org/new/ Do Israeli soldiers (the military of one of our biggest allies) feel they are making their country safer by killing children? Does the US feel they are making the region safer by turning a blind eye when both Turkey and Israel have as many security council violations as Saddam Hussein's Iraq? http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/special-edition/terrorism50/unresolu.htm http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A4BD8038-8970-4542-9E9C-E4FD18C11051.htm You think John Bolton was sent to the UN to make friends? http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0413-21.htm http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/USveto.html http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/membship/uspol/archindx.htm Why do you suppose our "friends", Turkey and Columbia receive such huge foreign aid packages while being such huge human rights violators? Hell why stop there? Ask the same question about our other friends, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Have you ever wondered what logic they use in picking friends? Why does the US government preach free elections, then condemn some of the freely elected presidents of some countries without having evidence that they did anything wrong? http://www.thepanamanews.com/pn/v_11/issue_05/review_02.html There is no one in the world as good as our federal government when it comes to fabricating fear, an enemy, and an excuse for war. Mike Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peace ( ONLY WON IN BATTLE) Ya' gotta' kill em' to make em' kind, eh? :-) And we all know what happens when "the other side" drinks from the same trough of reasoning, don't we? As for soldiers being the linchpin of everything we have at our "disposal" today? A part of? Yes. The epicenter? No. As well, take a look around and ask yourself if maybe there are a few "things" we would be better off without and if the world might be a better place if we hadn't been afforded much of what we don't need at the expense of so canon fodder. Todd Swearingen regina abbott wrote: Hello Mike ,Todd This is " E ED" in Montana. Do you realize that most anywhere you sit down to sip your whatever and make degrading statements, in HARMONY I'M SURE, about American citizens. It will be in realitive saftey because of American soldiers that died for you to be able to do so. It would be less confusing if my posts were posted. Sorry Todd I sent yours twice but Keith will probably catch it. You all just have a great evening and remember it is due to some American soldier that you are able to. Peace ( ONLY WON IN BATTLE) [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
i didnt get the impression that kieth was MAD at me... where did they come up with that? he said what he was thinking on the subject and went his merry way, whatever these Abbott folks are drinking/smoking they need to share it, because it would make my day at work S much easier. hehehe ;) GO KIETH!!, jason - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' From: regina abbott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Continued participation in Biofuel list. Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:19:21 -0600 My apology to all for the way I went about things is being held hostage by Kieth. I sent it in before I opened his and your emails. It would be a nice gesture for all to hear this. But after all the ranting and raving that Keith did in his email and then carrying his anger onto the list at approximately the same time against Jason, I very much doubt that he would do that unless I become what he wants me to be. Never! Never! Never! He can keep his attitude and his list. We no longer want any part of either. Please remove us. Ed and Regina Abbott - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] PS it is the one addressed to Todd , I sent him a copy also since it was mostly meant for him. Funny how they so often accuse you of anger when you don't agree with them. Just like when it turns out the ones doing all the US-bashing and hating America turn out to be Americans themselves - then they're at worst traitors or at best should leave the country, which indeed Ed suggested Todd should do since he's so bitter. Sigh... So he didn't make my day, but I wasn't exactly holding my breath. Nothing was being held to ransom, by the way, but Ed - an intruder here - was told he would not be allowed to post any further messages until he'd agreed to abide by the list rules. No message of apology or any message was received from Regina. What didn't get posted were three messages from Ed: a reply to Todd telling him he should chill out because he actually agrees with Ed even if he doesn't know it, one telling Robert he should wake up, and a long rant that didn't seem to mean anything much but it sure wasn't an apology, just a further attempt to shove Ed's jingoism down everybody's throat. Soldiers on trial for atrocities! Never in my lifetime have I seen propaganda used to such a degree as now... We don't need to be degraded and maligned. - Ed. No apology. IMHO any ex-Marine who'd learnt anything worth knowing would be fighting tooth and nail to stop the war in Iraq, as indeed so many are doing, eg: http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/33533/ Fog of War or War Crimes? By Michael Slenske, SMITH Magazine. Posted March 17, 2006. Jimmy Massey, the Marines' most outspoken anti-war war criminal, talks about what really happened on the road to Baghdad. It says this in the list rules that neither of these people can be bothered to read: But would you walk into a strange bar in a foreign city and give everyone orders about what they may and may not discuss? Of course not. Ed did though, not only that he told them they're morons from a garbage pit. And told this list of all lists that we should have a great evening and remember it is due to some American soldier that you are able to. LOL! Well I had a great evening anyway. Exit Ed and Regina Abbott, cherished notions no doubt intact and sod the collateral. No loss. Not even honest. Back to business. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Well now, E. in Montana. It was your wife who joined the list, not you. Now you say we joined the list, but there was no we, just her. Her message to the list administrators said nothing about sharing a joint account with you, let alone a joint list membership. She was twice referred to the list rules and list resources so that she would know what sort of community she was joining, and it didn't include you. You're not a list member here, you do not have the right to post messages. You did not make the distinction clear in your first message replying to Fox Mulder and everyone thought it was your wife. Now you say who you are so you can tell me you're a veteran who knows better. You just told Todd you're expecting to be kicked out for your behaviour. And your wife is aware of all this. You said this to Todd: of that for me, since after all I did write it. I am doing my best not to get thrown off before I have everything said. So I will continue to try to be nice. Where in the world will all this NOT get you kicked out, try to be nice or not? You and your wife with you? The everything that you feel you have to get said has all been said here before, many times. By vets, like you, and by vets who're not at all like you, there are quite a lot of them
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
this is going to sound very twisted, but if you think about it it makes sense. corporately speaking having a democratic government (greek definition of "people's rule", not today's garbage)is like a ceo allowing interns to make major decisions, and having only one or a smallgroup of hand picked goons running a country makes it easier to control them from an imperial standpoint. its like hiring a manager. - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' O.K...so much for giving the benefit of the doubt. Your response was better measured than I thought Todd. I read therecent post in this thread and the following quote got my attention: " E ED" in Montana wrote: "It will be in realitive saftey because of American soldiers that died for you to be able to doso." Relative to what " E ED" in Montana? You don't think that the US makes the world a more dangerous place? You think that placing nuclear missiles in Turkey didn't provoke the Cuban missile crisis or that having the vast majority of WMD's in the world, then pointing the finger at others is a way to promote peace? http://www.zmag.org/Instructionals/ForeignPolicy/id101_m.htm You don't think that a US attack against aSoviet sub almost caused the Northern hemisphere to become a radioactive wasteland? You don't think there were US submarines off the Russian coast provoking a war? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Alexandrovich_Arkhipov You think that acts of aggression against Cuba (i.e. Operation Mongoose, Operation North Woods, etc.) was an effort to keep the American people informed and find a diplomatic and peaceful resolution in the region? You don't think that in 1964, the provocation in the Bay of Tonkin was meant todraw us into a war with North Vietnam? Youthink that John Negroponte was sent to Honduras, Nicaragua and Iraq to help democracy flourish? http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/27/1435207 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Negroponte You think that the School of the Americas is a school for diplomacy? http://www.soaw.org/new/ Do Israeli soldiers (the military of one of our biggest allies) feel they are making their country safer by killing children? Does the US feel they are making the region safer by turning a blind eye when both Turkey and Israel have as many security council violations as Saddam Hussein's Iraq? http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/special-edition/terrorism50/unresolu.htm http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A4BD8038-8970-4542-9E9C-E4FD18C11051.htm You think John Bolton was sent to the UN to make friends? http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0413-21.htm http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/USveto.html http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/membship/uspol/archindx.htm Why do you suppose our "friends", Turkey ! and Columbia receive such huge foreign aid packages while being such huge human rights violators? Hell why stop there? Ask the same question about our other friends, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Have you ever wondered what logic they use in picking friends? Why does the US government preach free elections, then condemn some of the freely elected presidents of some countries without having evidence that they did anything wrong? http://www.thepanamanews.com/pn/v_11/issue_05/review_02.html There is no one in the world as good as our federal government when it comes to fabricating fear, an enemy, and an excuse for war. Mike Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peace ( ONLY WON IN BATTLE)Ya' gotta' kill em' to make em' kind, eh?:-)And we all know what happens when "the other side" drinks from the same trough of reasoning, don't we?As for soldiers being the linchpin of everything we have at our "disposal" today? A part of? Yes. The epicenter? No.As well, take a look around and ask yourself if maybe there are a few "things" we would be better off without and if the world might be a better place if we hadn't been afforded much of what we don't need at the expense of so canon fodder.Todd Swearingenregina abbott wrote: Hello Mike ,Todd This is " E ED" in Montana. Do you realize that most anywhere you sit down to sip your whatever and make degrading statements, in HARMONY I'M SURE, about American citizens. It will be in realitive saftey because of American soldiers ! that died for you to be able to do so. It would be less confusing if my posts were posted. Sorry Todd I sent yours twice but Keith will probably catch it. You all just have a great evening and
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
It is twisted, and a pretty close analogy to US policy today (perhaps more than an analogy).Thanks.Mike Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this is going to sound very twisted, but if you think about it it makes sense. corporately speaking having a democratic government (greek definition of "people's rule", not today's garbage)is like a ceo allowing interns to make major decisions, and having only one or a smallgroup of hand picked goons running a country makes it easier to control them from an imperial standpoint. its like hiring a manager.- Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'O.K...so much for giving the benefit of the doubt.Your response was better measured than I thought Todd. I read therecent post in this thread and the following quote got my attention:" E ED" in Montana wrote: "It will be in realitive saftey because of American soldiers that died for you to be able to doso."Relative to what " E ED" in Montana?You don't think that the US makes the world a more dangerous place?You think that placing nuclear missiles in Turkey didn't provoke the Cuban missile crisis or that having the vast majority of WMD's in the world, then pointing the finger at others is a way to promote peace?http://www.zmag.org/Instructionals/ForeignPolicy/id101_m.htm You don't think that a US attack against aSoviet sub almost caused the Northern hemisphere to become a radioactive wasteland? You don't think there were US submarines off the Russian coast provoking a war?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Alexandrovich_ArkhipovYou think that acts of aggression against Cuba (i.e. Operation Mongoose, Operation North Woods, etc.) was an effort to keep the American people informed and find a diplomatic and peaceful resolution in the region?You don't think that in 1964, the provocation in the Bay of Tonkin was meant todraw us into a war with North Vietnam?Youthink that John Negroponte was sent to Honduras, Nicaragua and Iraq to help democracy flourish? http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/27/1435207http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_NegroponteYou think that the School of the Americas is a school for diplomacy?http://www.soaw.org/new/Do Israeli soldiers (the military of one of our biggest allies) feel they are making their country safer by killing children? Does the US feel they are making the region safer by turning a blind eye when both Turkey and Israel have as many security council violations as Saddam Hussein's Iraq? http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/special-edition/terrorism50/unresolu.htmhttp://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A4BD8038-8970-4542-9E9C-E4FD18C11051.htmYou think John Bolton was sent to the UN to make friends? http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0413-21.htmhttp://www.whatreallyhappened.com/USveto.htmlhttp://www.globalpolicy.org/security/membship/uspol/archindx.htmWhy do you suppose our "friends", Turkey ! and Columbia receive such huge foreign aid packages while being such huge human rights violators? Hell why stop there? Ask the same question about our other friends, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Have you ever wondered what logic they use in picking friends?Why does the US government preach free elections, then condemn some of the freely elected presidents of some countries without having evidence that they did anything wrong? http://www.thepanamanews.com/pn/v_11/issue_05/review_02.htmlThere is no one in the world as good as our federal government when it comes to fabricating fear, an enemy, and an excuse for war.MikeAppal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peace ( ONLY WON IN BATTLE)Ya' gotta' kill em' to make em' kind, eh?:-)And we all know what happens when "the other side" drinks from the same trough of reasoning, don't we?As for soldiers being the linchpin of everything we have at our "disposal" today? A part of? Yes. The epicenter? No.As well, take a look around and ask yourself if maybe there are a few "things" we would be better off without and if the world might be a better place if we hadn't been afforded much of what we don't need at the expense of so canon fodder.Todd Swearingenregina abbott wrote: Hello Mike ,Todd This is " E ED" in Montana. Do you realize that most anywhere you sit down to sip your whatever and make degrading statements, in HARMONY I'M SURE, about American citizens. It will be in realitive saftey because of American soldiers ! that died for you to be able to do so. It would be less confusing if my posts were posted. Sorry Todd I sent yours twice but Keith will probably catch it. You all just have a great evening and remember i
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Tuesday March 21, 09:11 AM Click to enlarge photo A US magazine has released a video it claims shows a civilian massacre by American marines in Iraq. The incident, which happened last November in the town of Haditha, was captured by a journalism student, Time Magazine says. The graphic footage shows heavily bloodstained rooms, and bodies of the alleged victims wrapped in rugs at the house and in the local morgue. Residents in the Iraqi town claim the incident happened shortly after a roadside bomb killed a US Marine in a western Iraqi town last year. US forces went into nearby houses and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a three year-old-girl, residents said. American troops immediately cordoned the area and raided two nearby houses, shooting at everyone inside, said a witness. It was a massacre in every sense of the word. Time said the available evidence did not provide conclusive proof that the Marines deliberately killed innocent civilians. The US Military, after being presented with evidence in January, concluded that civilians were killed by Marines, Time said, victims of collateral damage rather than deliberate murder. Lieutenant General Peter Chiarelli, the number-two US commander in Iraq, said about 12 Marines were under investigation for possible war crimes in the incident. He said the case was referred to the Naval Criminal Investigative Service. ___ Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
Hello All This is E in Montana. It seems all you nice folks out there ,who have your perfect societies under control, have decided to resort to name calling and degrading the American people and our military personnel. NOT NICE "MEAN PEOPLE SUCK"!! Apparently ,since you have time to bash us, you have not done all "YOU" can do to get rid of your crooked politicians. After you have you may join us in degrading and demeaning our crooked politicans, which would be just about every one of them (you know, like yours)! In the mean time don't blame us for what they do. We don't blame your mothers for your "LACK OF SENSITIVITY"! That said, would you please tell us how you rooted out all of your corrupt politicians and created your perfect Utopian Societies? Please remember,like Hitlers Gestapo, we have Bushs Homeland Security to contend with. Like all other Americans reading this list I have been letting all of the hostile remarks (by people who seem to have no sense of reality) slide right on by back into the garbage pits from whence they came. Being as I did not keep a list of the Moronic remarks espoused or thier perpetrators, I will only answer to a couple of the last ones. First of all there are no Homer Simpsons left in the U S. Homer is free to say and do pretty much as he pleases, "NOT SO WITH THE REST OF US". We are more like the Keebler Elves, "JUST WORKING OUR DUMB ASSES OFF TO TRY AND MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE FOR ALL OF US AND YOU"!!! Mister(?)Fox Mulder I am not sure about what you are implying. I assume (making an ass out of you and me) that you are saying that war is hell and not fair and that Iraqi men women and children are killing U S soldiers who are there dying for them "AND OUR CRRRUPT POLITICIANS".!! In closing , now that you all have solved your problems and purged your corrupt politicians, I have one request of you on behalf of all Americans "WILL YOU PLEASE SEND BACK ALL OF THE MONEY OUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS SENT TO YOUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS'? We desperately need it.Dubya Bush has bankrupted us. From:fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject:Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'Date:Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:15:30 + (GMT)US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Tuesday March21, 09:11 AMClick to enlarge photoA US magazine has released a video it claims shows acivilian massacre by American marines in Iraq.The incident, which happened last November in the townof Haditha, was captured by a journalism student, TimeMagazine says.The graphic footage shows heavily bloodstained rooms,and bodies of the alleged victims wrapped in rugs atthe house and in the local morgue.Residents in the Iraqi town claim the incidenthappened shortly after a roadside bomb killed a USMarine in a western Iraqi town last year.US forces went into nearby houses and shot dead 15members of two families, including a threeyear-old-girl, residents said."American troops immediately cordoned the area andraided two nearby houses, shooting at everyoneinside," said a witness. "It was a massacre in everysense of the word."Time said the available evidence did not provideconclusive proof that the Marines deliberately killedinnocent civilians.The US Military, after being presented with evidencein January, concluded that civilians were killed byMarines, Time said, victims of "collateral damage"rather than deliberate murder.Lieutenant General Peter Chiarelli, the number-two UScommander in Iraq, said about 12 Marines were underinvestigation for possible war crimes in the incident.He said the case was referred to the Naval CriminalInvestigative Service. ___Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Learn how to better protect yourself with MSN Hotmail ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
A link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2090849,00.html US Marines investigated for Iraq war crimes - World - Times Online March 17, 2006 By Jenny Booth and agencies About a dozen US Marines are being investigated for possible war crimes after the deaths last year of 15 Iraqi civilians caught in the crossfire during a gun battle with insurgents. Also: http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12379.htm US raid on home killed 11 family members By Amer Amery 03/16/06 - TIKRIT, Iraq, March 15 (Reuters) - Eleven members of an Iraqi family were killed in a U.S. raid on Wednesday, police and witnesses said. The U.S. military said two women and a child died during the bid to seize an al Qaeda militant from a house. A senior Iraqi police officer said autopsies on the bodies, which included five children, showed each had been shot in the head. Community leaders said they were outraged at the killings and demanded an explanation from the U.S. military. ... http://snipurl.com/nwz2 Telegraph | News | SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent (Filed: 12/03/2006) An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the illegal tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces. After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces. http://eatthestate.org/10-14/ConquerDivide.htm Conquer and Divide (March 16, 2006) The 48-page Beyond Abu-Ghraib: Detention and Torture in Iraq was virtually ignored by US media, and that's a shame. Its findings, based on extensive interviews with (among others) Iraq's prisoners, former prisoners, and their families, directly implicate Washington in Icurrent/I human rights abuses, and go a long way toward explaining why a continuing US troop presence in Iraq, far from keeping a lid on civil war, is actually making the violence, sectarian and otherwise, far worse. http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde140012006 Iraq: Beyond Abu Ghraib: Detention and torture in Iraq - Amnesty International 6 March 2006 According to Amnesty International, the US-led occupation forces continue to use torture in Iraq. The US and UK have ignored their obligations under international law and have attached insufficient weight to human rights considerations. Iraqi detainees are held without trial or sentence, and Iraqi authorities have continued a pattern initiated by the US in systematically violating detainees' rights. http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/33768/ Chaos Accomplished By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted March 20, 2006. Three years after the U.S. invasion, a snapshot of Iraq reveals a country that is miles from anything resembling a 'road to progress.' http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/33771/ Welcome to Liberated Iraq By Entesar Mohammad Ariabi, AlterNet. Posted March 20, 2006. From a physician's viewpoint, liberation means rising infant mortality, critical shortages of medicines, terrorized doctors and the return of diseases once under control. Editor's Note: The following are the remarks of Dr. Entissar Mohammad Ariabi, a pharmacist from Yarmook Hospital who is part of an Iraqi women's delegation touring the U.S., organized by CODEPINK and Global Exchange. She spoke on March 18 in West Palm Beach, Florida. Number Of Iraqi Civilians Slaughtered In America's War? As Many As 250,000 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11674.htm Number of U.S. Military Personnel Slaughtered (Officially acknowledged) In Bush's War 2318 http://icasualties.org/oif/ The War in Iraq Costs $248,822,016,155 See the cost in your community http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapperItemid=182 'Iraq was awash in cash. We played football with bricks of $100 bills' At the beginning of the Iraq war, the UN entrusted $23bn of Iraqi money to the US-led coalition to redevelop the country. With the infrastructure of the country still in ruins, where has all that money gone? Callum Macrae and Ali Fadhil on one of the greatest financial scandals of all time Monday March 20, 2006 http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1734689,00.html And so on. Keith US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Tuesday March 21, 09:11 AM Click to enlarge photo A US magazine has released a video it claims shows a civilian massacre by American marines in Iraq. The incident, which happened last November in the town of Haditha, was captured by a journalism student, Time Magazine says. The graphic footage shows heavily bloodstained rooms, and bodies of the alleged victims wrapped in rugs at the house and in the local morgue. Residents in the Iraqi town claim the incident happened shortly after a roadside bomb killed a US Marine in a western Iraqi town last year. US forces went into nearby houses and shot dead 15 members
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
Regina, This is not personal against all Americans, it is reported by American news and a health sign for the American society. Not to bring it out in the open and discuss it, would be the worst of worst and then it would be comparable with Gestapo. As it is now, it is something that Americans can be proud of, that this cannot be hidden and go unpunished, if it is an atrocity. I know that the Song My in Vietnam was something that most Americans do not like to hear about, but it was actually a health sign that it was dealt with and reported. If this incident is true, it is also a health sign that it comes out in the open and CNN is an American media who is reporting it. The self scrutiny that the Americans practice is unique and they should be congratulated for it. Instead of feeling guilty, you should be proud. It was the same with the prison atrocities and the guilty are punished and marked for the rest of their lives. At least I do not see any reason for your reaction, but it is a sign of health anyway. Hakan At 20:12 21/03/2006, you wrote: Hello All This is E in Montana. It seems all you nice folks out there ,who have your perfect societies under control, have decided to resort to name calling and degrading the American people and our military personnel. NOT NICE MEAN PEOPLE SUCK!! Apparently ,since you have time to bash us, you have not done all YOU can do to get rid of your crooked politicians. After you have you may join us in degrading and demeaning our crooked politicans, which would be just about every one of them (you know, like yours)! In the mean time don't blame us for what they do. We don't blame your mothers for your LACK OF SENSITIVITY! That said, would you please tell us how you rooted out all of your corrupt politicians and created your perfect Utopian Societies? Please remember,like Hitlers Gestapo, we have Bushs Homeland Security to contend with. Like all other Americans reading this list I have been letting all of the hostile remarks (by people who seem to have no sense of reality) slide right on by back into the garbage pits from whence they came. Being as I did not keep a list of the Moronic remarks espoused or thier perpetrators, I will only answer to a couple of the last ones. First of all there are no Homer Simpsons left in the U S. Homer is free to say and do pretty much as he pleases, NOT SO WITH THE REST OF US. We are more like the Keebler Elves, JUST WORKING OUR DUMB ASSES OFF TO TRY AND MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE FOR ALL OF US AND YOU!!! Mister(?)Fox Mulder I am not sure about what you are implying. I assume (making an ass out of you and me) that you are saying that war is hell and not fair and that Iraqi men women and children are killing U S soldiers who are there dying for them AND OUR CRRRUPT POLITICIANS.!! In closing , now that you all have solved your problems and purged your corrupt politicians, I have one request of you on behalf of all Americans WILL YOU PLEASE SEND BACK ALL OF THE MONEY OUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS SENT TO YOUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS'? We desperately need it. Dubya Bush has bankrupted us. From: fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:15:30 + (GMT) US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Tuesday March 21, 09:11 AM Click to enlarge photo A US magazine has released a video it claims shows a civilian massacre by American marines in Iraq. The incident, which happened last November in the town of Haditha, was captured by a journalism student, Time Magazine says. The graphic footage shows heavily bloodstained rooms, and bodies of the alleged victims wrapped in rugs at the house and in the local morgue. Residents in the Iraqi town claim the incident happened shortly after a roadside bomb killed a US Marine in a western Iraqi town last year. US forces went into nearby houses and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a three year-old-girl, residents said. American troops immediately cordoned the area and raided two nearby houses, shooting at everyone inside, said a witness. It was a massacre in every sense of the word. Time said the available evidence did not provide conclusive proof that the Marines deliberately killed innocent civilians. The US Military, after being presented with evidence in January, concluded that civilians were killed by Marines, Time said, victims of collateral damage rather than deliberate murder. Lieutenant General Peter Chiarelli, the number-two US commander in Iraq, said about 12 Marines were under investigation for possible war crimes in the incident. He said the case was referred to the Naval Criminal Investigative Service
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
I don't think that there are serious differences here. Exposing war crimes is a responsibility we all share. The Nationalism being sold to the American people in the form of heroic testimonials is an attempt to remove accountability and encourage contempt for anyoneexpressing dissent.Those living in the country can share the sentiments of those living outside the country and still fulfill theirresponsibility as good citizens when exposing criminal acts.Most important (IMO)is that blanket statements about theUS military should be avoided.The first person who said "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" was probably a veteran. Acts of compassion do occur in the same theater as acts of perversion (albeit, not in the same proportions).I feel your pain and frustration Regina.Mikeregina abbott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hello AllThis is E in Montana. It seems all you nice folks out there ,who have your perfect societies under control, have decided to resort to name calling and degrading the American people and our military personnel. NOT NICE "MEAN PEOPLE SUCK"!! Apparently ,since you have time to bash us, you have not done all "YOU" can do to get rid of your crooked politicians. After you have you may join us in degrading and demeaning our crooked politicans, which would be just about every one of them (you know, like yours)! In the mean time don't blame us for what they do. We don't blame your mothers for your "LACK OF SENSITIVITY"! That said, would you please tell us how you rooted out all of your corrupt politicians and created your perfect Utopian Societies? Please remember,like Hitlers Gestapo, we have Bushs Homeland Security to contend with. Like all other Americans reading this list I have been letting all of the hostile remarks (by people who seem to have no sense of reality) slide right on by back into the garbage pits from whence they came. Being as I did not keep a list of the Moronic remarks espoused or thier perpetrators, I will only answer to a couple of the last ones. First of all there are no Homer Simpsons left in the U S. Homer is free to say and do pretty much as he pleases, "NOT SO WITH THE REST OF US". We are more like the Keebler Elves, "JUST WORKING OUR DUMB ASSES OFF TO TRY AND MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE FOR ALL OF US AND YOU"!!! Mister(?)Fox Mulder I am not sure about what you are implying. I assume (making an ass out of you and me) that you are saying that war is hell and not fair and that Iraqi men women and children are killing U S soldiers who are there dying for them "AND OUR CRRRUPT POLITICIANS".!! In closing , now that you all have solved your problems and purged your corrupt politicians, I have one request of you on behalf of all Americans "WILL YOU PLEASE SEND BACK ALL OF THE MONEY OUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS SENT TO YOUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS'? We desperately need it.Dubya Bush has bankrupted us. From:fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject:Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'Date:Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:15:30 + (GMT)US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Tuesday March21, 09:11 AMClick to enlarge photoA US magazine has released a video it claims shows acivilian massacre by American marines in Iraq.The incident, which happened last November in the townof Haditha, was captured by a journalism student, TimeMagazine says.The graphic footage shows heavily bloodstained rooms,and bodies of the alleged victims wrapped in rugs atthe house and in the local morgue.[snip]___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
Dear Ms. Abbott, As an 18th generation American, discounting my native American ancestry, I for one am largely in agreement with the rest of the world. The US is a lethargic, dawdling, meddling, manipulative, controlling, degrading, degenerate and inordinately despotic subset of the species - one that lavishes in largess, double standard by the baker's dozens along with a plethora of other malicious maladies not necessarily unique to itself but certainly nurtured beyond palatable constraints as the societal norm. Were you to look closer, probably the most caustic comments on the disease called America come from within - and deservedly so. In case you haven't noticed, it's a wee tad difficult to clean a closet from the outside of a house. Todd Swearingen regina abbott wrote: Hello All This is E in Montana. It seems all you nice folks out there ,who have your perfect societies under control, have decided to resort to name calling and degrading the American people and our military personnel. NOT NICE MEAN PEOPLE SUCK!! Apparently ,since you have time to bash us, you have not done all YOU can do to get rid of your crooked politicians. After you have you may join us in degrading and demeaning our crooked politicans, which would be just about every one of them (you know, like yours)! In the mean time don't blame us for what they do. We don't blame your mothers for your LACK OF SENSITIVITY! That said, would you please tell us how you rooted out all of your corrupt politicians and created your perfect Utopian Societies? Please remember,like Hitlers Gestapo, we have Bushs Homeland Security to contend with. Like all other Americans reading this list I have been letting all of the hostile remarks (by people who seem to have no sense of reality) slide right on by back into the garbage pits from whence they came. Being as I did not keep a list of the Moronic remarks espoused or thier perpetrators, I will only answer to a couple of the last ones. First of all there are no Homer Simpsons left in the U S. Homer is free to say and do pretty much as he pleases, NOT SO WITH THE REST OF US. We are more like the Keebler Elves, JUST WORKING OUR DUMB ASSES OFF TO TRY AND MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE FOR ALL OF US AND YOU!!! Mister(?)Fox Mulder I am not sure about what you are implying. I assume (making an ass out of you and me) that you are saying that war is hell and not fair and that Iraqi men women and children are killing U S soldiers who are there dying for them AND OUR CRRRUPT POLITICIANS.!! In closing , now that you all have solved your problems and purged your corrupt politicians, I have one request of you on behalf of all Americans WILL YOU PLEASE SEND BACK ALL OF THE MONEY OUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS SENT TO YOUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS'? We desperately need it. Dubya Bush has bankrupted us. From: /fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Reply-To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Subject: /Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'/ Date: /Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:15:30 + (GMT)/ US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Tuesday March 21, 09:11 AM Click to enlarge photo A US magazine has released a video it claims shows a civilian massacre by American marines in Iraq. The incident, which happened last November in the town of Haditha, was captured by a journalism student, Time Magazine says. The graphic footage shows heavily bloodstained rooms, and bodies of the alleged victims wrapped in rugs at the house and in the local morgue. Residents in the Iraqi town claim the incident happened shortly after a roadside bomb killed a US Marine in a western Iraqi town last year. US forces went into nearby houses and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a three year-old-girl, residents said. American troops immediately cordoned the area and raided two nearby houses, shooting at everyone inside, said a witness. It was a massacre in every sense of the word. Time said the available evidence did not provide conclusive proof that the Marines deliberately killed innocent civilians. The US Military, after being presented with evidence in January, concluded that civilians were killed by Marines, Time said, victims of collateral damage rather than deliberate murder. Lieutenant General Peter Chiarelli, the number-two US commander
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
Todd,I haven't seen you get switched-on like this in a while.I have no problem imagining us sipping coffee (or what have you) and continuing this conversation in almost complete agreement. That's why I was a little surprised when you didn't give Ms. Abbott some credit for pointing out corruption at home. After all, she did say "Dubya Bush hasbankrupted us".Perhaps I can't be too critical because she reminds me of friends and relatives at home whoare seeingan image ofAmerican Ideals projected by the likes ofMcCarthy and Wilson (for example) which is now being stood on it's head.Then again, maybe I'm just not understanding the message.Peace,Mike Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Ms. Abbott,As an 18th generation American, discounting my native American ancestry, I for one am largely in agreement with the rest of the world. The US is a lethargic, dawdling, meddling, manipulative, controlling, degrading, degenerate and inordinately despotic subset of the species - one that lavishes in largess, double standard by the baker's dozens along with a plethora of other malicious maladies not necessarily unique to itself but certainly nurtured beyond palatable constraints as the societal norm.Were you to look closer, probably the most caustic comments on the disease called "America" come from within - and deservedly so.In case you haven't noticed, it's a wee tad difficult to clean a closet from the outside of a house.Todd Swearingenregina abbott wrote: Hello All This is E in Montana. It seems all you nice folks out there ,who have your perfect societies under control, have decided to resort to name calling and degrading the American people and our military personnel. NOT NICE "MEAN PEOPLE SUCK"!! Apparently ,since you have time to bash us, you have not done all "YOU" can do to get rid of your crooked politicians. After you have you may join us in degrading and demeaning our crooked politicans, which would be just about every one of them (you know, like yours)! In the mean time don't blame us for what they do. We don't blame your mothers for your "LACK OF SENSITIVITY"! That said, would you please tell us how you rooted out all of your corrupt politicians and created your perfect Utopian Societies? Please remember,like Hitlers Gestapo, we have Bushs Homeland Security to contend with. Like all other Americans reading this list I have been letting all of the hostile remarks (by people who seem to have no sense of reality) slide right on by back into the garbage pits from whence they came. Being as I did not keep a list of the Moronic remarks espoused or thier perpetrators, I will only answer to a couple of the last ones. First of all there are no Homer Simpsons left in the U S. Homer is free to say and do pretty much as he pleases, "NOT SO WITH THE REST OF US". We are more like the Keebler Elves, "JUST WORKING OUR DUMB ASSES OFF TO TRY AND MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE FOR ALL OF US AND YOU"!!! Mister(?)Fox Mulder I am not sure about what you are implying. I assume (making an ass out of you and me) that you are saying that war is hell and not fair and that Iraqi men women and children are killing U S soldiers who are there dying for them "AND OUR CRRRUPT POLITICIANS".!! In closing , now that you all have solved your problems and purged your corrupt politicians, I have one request of you on behalf of all Americans "WILL YOU PLEASE SEND BACK ALL OF THE MONEY OUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS SENT TO YOUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS'? We desperately need it. Dubya Bush has bankrupted us. From: /fox mulder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/ Reply-To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Subject: /Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'/ Date: /Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:15:30 + (GMT)/ US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Tuesday March 21, 09:11 AM Click to enlarge photoA US magazine has released a video it claims shows a civilian massacre by American marines in Iraq. The incident, which happened last November in the town of Haditha, was captured by a journalism student, Time Magazine says. The graphic footage shows heavily bloodstained rooms, and bodies of the alleged victims wrapped in rugs at the house and in the local morgue. Residents in the Iraqi town claim the incident happened shortly after a roadside bomb killed a US Marine in a western Iraqi town last year. US forces went into nearby houses and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a three year-old-girl, residents said. [snip]___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
us. From: /fox mulder / Reply-To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Subject: /Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'/ Date: /Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:15:30 + (GMT)/ US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Tuesday March 21, 09:11 AM Click to enlarge photo A US magazine has released a video it claims shows a civilian massacre by American marines in Iraq. The incident, which happened last November in the town of Haditha, was captured by a journalism student, Time Magazine says. The graphic footage shows heavily bloodstained rooms, and bodies of the alleged victims wrapped in rugs at the house and in the local morgue. Residents in the Iraqi town claim the incident happened shortly after a roadside bomb killed a US Marine in a western Iraqi town last year. US forces went into nearby houses and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a three year-old-girl, residents said. [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
Hello KeithThis is E in Montana. All of these things you cite about possible atrocities are disgusting and regrettable like most everything else in war. But what about the soldiers? As in Vietnam the people they are there to protect are also trying to kill them. By the way the E stands for ED, my wife and I shared an email address when we joined the list. I spent 14 months in Vietnam in the Marines. I think that qualifies me to know how a lot of these guys feel. It is no fun to spend every day waiting for a sniper bullet to end your life or to have it ended by a bomb planted by say a 3 year old child. It does something to you! It does something to you to be a "survivor" . You never forget the ones that died and those that wish they had. And they, like us from Vietnam, get to live with the "FACT" that it was all over the money grabbing corrupt politicians. You try to remember that you served your country not the thieves running it. Also my previous post was meant to have very little to dowith this one. It was meant for the many anti-American remarks made in previous weeks. Before you condemn a soldier, try to put yourself in his shoes. You may find some grace for him. I am not condoning murder. P.S. Don't knock our country. Do as you wish with our corrupt politicians!!! From:Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject:Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'Date:Wed, 22 Mar 2006 05:37:29 +0900A link:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2090849,00.htmlUS Marines investigated for Iraq war crimes - World - Times OnlineMarch 17, 2006By Jenny Booth and agenciesAbout a dozen US Marines are being investigated for possible warcrimes after the deaths last year of 15 Iraqi civilians caught in thecrossfire during a gun battle with insurgents.Also:http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12379.htmUS raid on home killed 11 family membersBy Amer Amery03/16/06 - TIKRIT, Iraq, March 15 (Reuters) - Eleven members of anIraqi family were killed in a U.S. raid on Wednesday, police andwitnesses said. The U.S. military said two women and a child diedduring the bid to seize an al Qaeda militant from a house. A seniorIraqi police officer said autopsies on the bodies, which includedfive children, showed each had been shot in the head. Communityleaders said they were outraged at the killings and demanded anexplanation from the U.S. military. ...http://snipurl.com/nwz2Telegraph | News | SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal'American tactics in IraqSAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in IraqBy Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent(Filed: 12/03/2006)An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Armyover the "illegal" tactics of United States troops and the policiesof coalition forces. After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin toldhis commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongsideAmerican forces.http://eatthestate.org/10-14/ConquerDivide.htmConquer and Divide (March 16, 2006)The 48-page "Beyond Abu-Ghraib: Detention and Torture in Iraq" wasvirtually ignored by US media, and that's a shame. Its findings,based on extensive interviews with (among others) Iraq's prisoners,former prisoners, and their families, directly implicate Washingtonin Icurrent/I human rights abuses, and go a long way towardexplaining why a continuing US troop presence in Iraq, far fromkeeping a lid on civil war, is actually making the violence,sectarian and otherwise, far worse.http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde140012006Iraq: Beyond Abu Ghraib: Detention and torture in Iraq - Amnesty International6 March 2006According to Amnesty International, the US-led occupation forcescontinue to use torture in Iraq. The US and UK have ignored theirobligations under international law and have "attached insufficientweight to human rights considerations." Iraqi detainees are heldwithout trial or sentence, and Iraqi authorities have continued apattern initiated by the US in systematically violating detainees'rights.http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/33768/Chaos AccomplishedBy Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted March 20, 2006.Three years after the U.S. invasion, a snapshot of Iraq reveals acountry that is miles from anything resembling a 'road to progress.'http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/33771/Welcome to Liberated IraqBy Entesar Mohammad Ariabi, AlterNet. Posted March 20, 2006.From a physician's viewpoint, liberation means rising infantmortality, critical shortages of medicines, terrorized doctors andthe return of diseases once under control.Editor's Note: The following are the remarks of Dr. Entissar MohammadAriabi, a pharmacist from Yarmook Hospital who is part of an Iraqiwomen's delegation touring the U.S., organized by CODEPINK and GlobalExchange. She spoke on March 18 in West Palm Beach, Florida.Number Of Iraqi Civilians Sla
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
Hello Mike ,Todd This is "E ED" in Montana. Do you realize that most anywhere you sit down to sip your whatever and make degrading statements, inHARMONY I'M SURE, about American citizens. It will be in realitive saftey because of American soldiers that died for you to be able to do so. It would be less confusing if my posts were posted. Sorry Todd I sent yours twice but Keith will probably catch it. You alljust have a great evening and remember it is due to some American soldier that you are able to. Peace ( ONLY WON IN BATTLE) From:Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject:Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'Date:Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:25:18 -0800 (PST) Todd, I haven't seen you get switched-on like this in a while. I have no problem imagining us sipping coffee (or what have you) and continuing this conversation in almost complete agreement. That's why I was a little surprised when you didn't give Ms. Abbott some credit for pointing out corruption at home. After all, she did say "Dubya Bush hasbankrupted us". Perhaps I can't be too critical because she reminds me of friends and relatives at home whoare seeingan image ofAmerican Ideals projected by the likes ofMcCarthy and Wilson (for example) which is now being stood on it's head. Then again, maybe I'm just not understanding the message. Peace, Mike Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Ms. Abbott,As an 18th generation American, discounting my native American ancestry, I for one am largely in agreement with the rest of the world. The US is a lethargic, dawdling, meddling, manipulative, controlling, degrading, degenerate and inordinately despotic subset of the species - one that lavishes in largess, double standard by the baker's dozens along with a plethora of other malicious maladies not necessarily unique to itself but certainly nurtured beyond palatable constraints as the societal norm.Were you to look closer, probably the most caustic comments on the disease called "America" come from within - and deservedly so.In case you haven't noticed, it's a wee tad difficult to clean a closet from the outside of a house.Todd Swearingenregina abbott wrote: Hello All This is E in Montana. It seems all you nice folks out there ,who have your perfect societies under control, have decided to resort to name calling and degrading the American people and our military personnel. NOT NICE "MEAN PEOPLE SUCK"!! Apparently ,since you have time to bash us, you have not done all "YOU" can do to get rid of your crooked politicians. After you have you may join us in degrading and demeaning our crooked politicans, which would be just about every one of them (you know, like yours)! In the mean time don't blame us for what they do. We don't blame your mothers for your "LACK OF SENSITIVITY"! That said, would you please tell us how you rooted out all of your corrupt politicians and created your perfect Utopian Societies? Please remember,like Hitlers Gestapo, we have Bushs Homeland Security to contend with. Like all other Americans reading this list I have been letting all of the hostile remarks (by people who seem to have no sense of reality) slide right on by back into the garbage pits from whence they came. Being as I did not keep a list of the Moronic remarks espoused or thier perpetrators, I will only answer to a couple of the last ones. First of all there are no Homer Simpsons left in the U S. Homer is free to say and do pretty much as he pleases, "NOT SO WITH THE REST OF US". We are more like the Keebler Elves, "JUST WORKING OUR DUMB ASSES OFF TO TRY AND MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE FOR ALL OF US AND YOU"!!! Mister(?)Fox Mulder I am not sure about what you are implying. I assume (making an ass out of you and me) that you are saying that war is hell and not fair and that Iraqi men women and children are killing U S soldiers who are there dying for them "AND OUR CRRRUPT POLITICIANS".!! In closing , now that you all have solved your problems and purged your corrupt politicians, I have one request of you on behalf of all Americans "WILL YOU PLEASE SEND BACK ALL OF THE MONEY OUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS SENT TO YOUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS'? We desperately need it. Dubya Bush has bankrupted us. From: /fox mulder / Reply-To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Subject: /Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'/ Date: /Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:15:30 + (GMT)/ US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Tuesday March 21, 09:11 AM Click to enlarge photoA US magazine has released a video it claims shows a civilian massacre by American marines in Iraq. The incident, which happened last November in the town of Haditha, was captured by a journalism student, Time
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
Mr. Swearingen. I am sorry that I got You so worked up! Since my last post apparently isn't up yet I will apologise to my 58 year old wife and tell her that you really meant all of that for me, since after all I did write it. I am doing my best not to get thrown off before I have everything said. So I will continue to try to be nice. I spent many years after Vietnam hating my country and government. Then one day I realized we have a great country and system of government. We have just let it be taken over by corrupt and greedy politicians and businessmen. I wish I knew how to turn this around but I think it is probably too late. So I am keeping my powder dry and waiting for the enemy to show up: be it from "with-in" or out, I will go down with my country.In the mean time I will refrain from degrading the populous for what so few have been able to do to our country. Also I do not believe name calling and degrading statements about the American People (Note I did not say the government officals or politicians, they should get what they deserve) from people "with-in" or out of our country will be of any benifit. Asfar as living in thiscountry my family has also been here for many many generations some I am reasonably certain walked"The Trail Of Tears", a one time thing never to be repeated. Honestly, a person that is as bitter as you sound may be much happier cleaning our closet from outside. Best of luck ED From:Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject:Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'Date:Tue, 21 Mar 2006 19:33:07 -0500Dear Ms. Abbott,As an 18th generation American, discounting my native American ancestry,I for one am largely in agreement with the rest of the world. The US isa lethargic, dawdling, meddling, manipulative, controlling, degrading,degenerate and inordinately despotic subset of the species - one thatlavishes in largess, double standard by the baker's dozens along with aplethora of other malicious maladies not necessarily unique to itselfbut certainly nurtured beyond palatable constraints as the societal norm.Were you to look closer, probably the most caustic comments on thedisease called "America" come from within - and deservedly so.In case you haven't noticed, it's a wee tad difficult to clean a closetfrom the outside of a house.Todd Swearingenregina abbott wrote: Hello All This is E in Montana. It seems all you nice folks out there ,who have your perfect societies under control, have decided to resort to name calling and degrading the American people and our military personnel. NOT NICE "MEAN PEOPLE SUCK"!! Apparently ,since you have time to bash us, you have not done all "YOU" can do to get rid of your crooked politicians. After you have you may join us in degrading and demeaning our crooked politicans, which would be just about every one of them (you know, like yours)! In the mean time don't blame us for what they do. We don't blame your mothers for your "LACK OF SENSITIVITY"! That said, would you please tell us how you rooted out all of your corrupt politicians and created your perfect Utopian Societies? Please remember,like Hitlers Gestapo, we have Bushs Homeland Security to contend with. Like all other Americans reading this list I have been letting all of the hostile remarks (by people who seem to have no sense of reality) slide right on by back into the garbage pits from whence they came. Being as I did not keep a list of the Moronic remarks espoused or thier perpetrators, I will only answer to a couple of the last ones. First of all there are no Homer Simpsons left in the U S. Homer is free to say and do pretty much as he pleases, "NOT SO WITH THE REST OF US". We are more like the Keebler Elves, "JUST WORKING OUR DUMB ASSES OFF TO TRY AND MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE FOR ALL OF US AND YOU"!!! Mister(?)Fox Mulder I am not sure about what you are implying. I assume (making an ass out of you and me) that you are saying that war is hell and not fair and that Iraqi men women and children are killing U S soldiers who are theredying for them"AND OUR CRRRUPT POLITICIANS".!! In closing , now that you all have solved your problems and purged your corrupt politicians, I have one request of you on behalf of all Americans "WILL YOU PLEASE SEND BACK ALL OF THE MONEY OUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS SENT TO YOUR CORRUPT POLITICIANS'? We desperately need it. Dubya Bush has bankrupted us. From:/fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Reply-To:/Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ To:/Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Subject:/Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'/ Date:/Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:15:30 + (GMT)/US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians' Tuesday March 21
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
regina abbott wrote: This is E in Montana. All of these things you cite about possible atrocities are disgusting and regrettable like most everything else in war. But what about the soldiers? Some of us get very upset that people like you and the friends you left behind end up getting their blood shed to promote misery and fill the coffers of the political masters who sent you into harm's way. I don't need to remind you that soldiers, though they must obey orders, are expected to act in a professional manner and exercise good judgment. Everyone understands that soldiering is a dangerous occupation, yet there is NO excuse for mistreating civilians, nor prisoners of war. Bullets and bombs notwithstanding, we expect our warriors to reflect the values of our society, and I don't think any decent American should advocate the slaughter of innocents and torture of prisoners. As for anti-American sentiments, please understand that this is NOT an American forum. Every once in awhile someone expresses disgust with what is often perceived as anti-Americanism. This is, however, a place to discuss ideas in a rational manner. Flag waving and national anthems will merit few tears here. Some of us express our dissent in this international forum as a matter of patriotic duty. Please don't confuse dissent with treason. You served, in principle, so that I and others like me would have the right to express our views. Some things in this forum are very difficult for us to read, but real Americans are mature enough to listen, especially when our friends are speaking. You are among friends, sir. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
Peace ( ONLY WON IN BATTLE) Ya' gotta' kill em' to make em' kind, eh? :-) And we all know what happens when the other side drinks from the same trough of reasoning, don't we? As for soldiers being the linchpin of everything we have at our disposal today? A part of? Yes. The epicenter? No. As well, take a look around and ask yourself if maybe there are a few things we would be better off without and if the world might be a better place if we hadn't been afforded much of what we don't need at the expense of so canon fodder. Todd Swearingen regina abbott wrote: Hello Mike ,Todd This is E ED in Montana. Do you realize that most anywhere you sit down to sip your whatever and make degrading statements, in HARMONY I'M SURE, about American citizens. It will be in realitive saftey because of American soldiers that died for you to be able to do so. It would be less confusing if my posts were posted. Sorry Todd I sent yours twice but Keith will probably catch it.You all just have a great evening and remember it is due to some American soldier that you are able to.Peace ( ONLY WON IN BATTLE) From: /Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Reply-To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Subject: /Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'/ Date: /Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:25:18 -0800 (PST)/ Todd, I haven't seen you get switched-on like this in a while. I have no problem imagining us sipping coffee (or what have you) and continuing this conversation in almost complete agreement. That's why I was a little surprised when you didn't give Ms. Abbott some credit for pointing out corruption at home. After all, she did say Dubya Bush has bankrupted us. Perhaps I can't be too critical because she reminds me of friends and relatives at home who are seeing an image of American Ideals projected by the likes of McCarthy and Wilson (for example) which is now being stood on it's head. Then again, maybe I'm just not understanding the message. Peace, Mike */Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Dear Ms. Abbott, As an 18th generation American, discounting my native American ancestry, I for one am largely in agreement with the rest of the world. The US is a lethargic, dawdling, meddling, manipulative, controlling, degrading, degenerate and inordinately despotic subset of the species - one that lavishes in largess, double standard by the baker's dozens along with a plethora of other malicious maladies not necessarily unique to itself but certainly nurtured beyond palatable constraints as the societal norm. Were you to look closer, probably the most caustic comments on the disease called America come from within - and deservedly so. In case you haven't noticed, it's a wee tad difficult to clean a closet from the outside of a house. Todd Swearingen regina abbott wrote: Hello All This is E in Montana. It seems all you nice folks out there ,who have your perfect societies under control, have decided to resort to name calling and degrading the American people and our military personnel. NOT NICE MEAN PEOPLE SUCK!! Apparently ,since you have time to bash us, you have not done all YOU can do to get rid of your crooked politicians. After you have you may join us in degrading and demeaning our crooked politicans, which would be just about every one of them (you know, like yours)! In the mean time don't blame us for what they do. We don't blame your mothers for your LACK OF SENSITIVITY! That said, would you please tell us how you rooted out all of your corrupt politicians and created your perfect Utopian Societies? Please remember,like Hitlers Gestapo, we have Bushs Homeland Security to contend with. Like all other Americans reading this list I have been letting all of the hostile remarks (by people who seem to have no sense of reality) slide right on by back into the garbage pits from whence they came. Being as I did not keep a list of the Moronic remarks espoused or thier perpetrators, I will only
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'
Ed, Before I read your entire post, relax. I didn't get worked up in the slightest. Just like your nature is as it is, so is mine. A product of my (global) environment, operating at normal throttle in the unnatural world created around me. Two, I don't think there's much risk of getting thrown off unless you choose to be one of those who wantonly ignore reality, adamantly declare that it doesn't exist and vituperously demand that all adhere to that one, true belief. Three, here are your words that are the key and crux of the matter: We have just let it be taken Which rather makes what is and/or was apparently a majority complicit in the crimes. Most will try to deny, plead ignorance or having been mislead. But any with half a wit saw this one coming. And those we thought had half a wit? Including friends and family? Well, I guess we're all learning exactly what calibre their character is by now, if it weren't self-evident previously. As for waiting for this [to] turn around? Give them enough rope and eventually they hang themselves. No qualms with the snap when they reach the end of whatever length they thought they could get away with. Just a rather miserable state of affairs all those who lose in the interim and all the permanent damage that can never be undone. As for bitter? No. Just unceasingly disappointed that so many humans continue to be so stupid, as if they think they can take it with them or that destroying the lives of others somehow makes there's better. As for the Trail of Tears? Ditto. When Jackson's face comes off the twenty, then I'll start believing that this country may be moving towards or on a correct path. Todd Swearingen regina abbott wrote: Mr. Swearingen. I am sorry that I got You so worked up! Since my last post apparently isn't up yet I will apologise to my 58 year old wife and tell her that you really meant all of that for me, since after all I did write it. I am doing my best not to get thrown off before I have everything said. So I will continue to try to be nice. I spent many years after Vietnam hating my country and government. Then one day I realized we have a great country and system of government. We have just let it be taken over by corrupt and greedy politicians and businessmen. I wish I knew how to turn this around but I think it is probably too late. So I am keeping my powder dry and waiting for the enemy to show up: be it from with-in or out, I will go down with my country. In the mean time I will refrain from degrading the populous for what so few have been able to do to our country. Also I do not believe name calling and degrading statements about the American People (Note I did not say the government officals or politicians, they should get what they deserve) from people with-in or out of our country will be of any benifit. As far as living in this country my family has also been here for many many generations some I am reasonably certain walked The Trail Of Tears, a one time thing never to be repeated. Honestly, a person that is as bitter as you sound may be much happier cleaning our closet from outside. Best of luck ED From: /Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Reply-To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Subject: /Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]US marines 'massscred Iraqi civilians'/ Date: /Tue, 21 Mar 2006 19:33:07 -0500/ Dear Ms. Abbott, As an 18th generation American, discounting my native American ancestry, I for one am largely in agreement with the rest of the world. The US is a lethargic, dawdling, meddling, manipulative, controlling, degrading, degenerate and inordinately despotic subset of the species - one that lavishes in largess, double standard by the baker's dozens along with a plethora of other malicious maladies not necessarily unique to itself but certainly nurtured beyond palatable constraints as the societal norm. Were you to look closer, probably the most caustic comments on the disease called America come from within - and deservedly so. In case you haven't noticed, it's a wee tad difficult to clean a closet from the outside of a house. Todd Swearingen regina abbott wrote: Hello All This is E in Montana. It seems all you nice folks out there ,who have your perfect societies under control, have decided to resort to name calling and degrading
Re: [Biofuel] off topic Fwd:The Donkey
Hi Kim, We all need a good chuckle now and then. Thanks for mine today. :-) And brighter blessings to you. Oregon Bob - Original Message - From: Garth Kim Travis To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 6:42 AM Subject: [Biofuel] off topic Fwd:The Donkey Greetings,I know this is off topic, but it is way too funny/wise to not be passed on.Enjoy and Bright Blessings,Kim Subject: The Donkey This is a story we all could learn from. Click on the word Donkey. Donkey ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] off topic Fwd:The Donkey
Greetings, I know this is off topic, but it is way too funny/wise to not be passed on. Enjoy and Bright Blessings, Kim Subject: The Donkey This is a story we all could learn from. Click on the word Donkey. Donkey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77
No, sorry I cannot abide by this at all. You are misrepresenting Kangaroos, and there are no Marxists left in Australia since our illustrious PM, John Howard (affectionately named the Shrub, as he is definitely a small bush) made anything approaching leftist ideals illegal! regards Doug On Wednesday 15 March 2006 6:08, Evergreen Solutions wrote: I personally believe the whole thing was orchestrated by Marxist Kangaroos intent on destroying the world zionist rabbit archipelago by intentional contraversion of common springboard hopping techniques. And that Rumsfeld paid for it with his Sam's Club card. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]How Islamic inventors changed the world
Source: The Independent http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article350594.ece How Islamic inventors changed the world From coffee to cheques and the three-course meal, the Muslim world has given us many innovations that we take for granted in daily life. As a new exhibition opens, Paul Vallely nominates 20 of the most influential- and identifies the men of genius behind them Published: 11 March 2006 1 The story goes that an Arab named Khalid was tending his goats in the Kaffa region of southern Ethiopia, when he noticed his animals became livelier after eating a certain berry. He boiled the berries to make the first coffee. Certainly the first record of the drink is of beans exported from Ethiopia to Yemen where Sufis drank it to stay awake all night to pray on special occasions. By the late 15th century it had arrived in Mecca and Turkey from where it made its way to Venice in 1645. It was brought to England in 1650 by a Turk named Pasqua Rosee who opened the first coffee house in Lombard Street in the City of London. The Arabic qahwa became the Turkish kahve then the Italian caffé and then English coffee. 2 The ancient Greeks thought our eyes emitted rays, like a laser, which enabled us to see. The first person to realise that light enters the eye, rather than leaving it, was the 10th-century Muslim mathematician, astronomer and physicist Ibn al-Haitham. He invented the first pin-hole camera after noticing the way light came through a hole in window shutters. The smaller the hole, the better the picture, he worked out, and set up the first Camera Obscura (from the Arab word qamara for a dark or private room). He is also credited with being the first man to shift physics from a philosophical activity to an experimental one. 3 A form of chess was played in ancient India but the game was developed into the form we know it today in Persia. From there it spread westward to Europe - where it was introduced by the Moors in Spain in the 10th century - and eastward as far as Japan. The word rook comes from the Persian rukh, which means chariot. 4 A thousand years before the Wright brothers a Muslim poet, astronomer, musician and engineer named Abbas ibn Firnas made several attempts to construct a flying machine. In 852 he jumped from the minaret of the Grand Mosque in Cordoba using a loose cloak stiffened with wooden struts. He hoped to glide like a bird. He didn't. But the cloak slowed his fall, creating what is thought to be the first parachute, and leaving him with only minor injuries. In 875, aged 70, having perfected a machine of silk and eagles' feathers he tried again, jumping from a mountain. He flew to a significant height and stayed aloft for ten minutes but crashed on landing - concluding, correctly, that it was because he had not given his device a tail so it would stall on landing. Baghdad international airport and a crater on the Moon are named after him. 5 Washing and bathing are religious requirements for Muslims, which is perhaps why they perfected the recipe for soap which we still use today. The ancient Egyptians had soap of a kind, as did the Romans who used it more as a pomade. But it was the Arabs who combined vegetable oils with sodium hydroxide and aromatics such as thyme oil. One of the Crusaders' most striking characteristics, to Arab nostrils, was that they did not wash. Shampoo was introduced to England by a Muslim who opened Mahomed's Indian Vapour Baths on Brighton seafront in 1759 and was appointed Shampooing Surgeon to Kings George IV and William IV. 6 Distillation, the means of separating liquids through differences in their boiling points, was invented around the year 800 by Islam's foremost scientist, Jabir ibn Hayyan, who transformed alchemy into chemistry, inventing many of the basic processes and apparatus still in use today - liquefaction, crystallisation, distillation, purification, oxidisation, evaporation and filtration. As well as discovering sulphuric and nitric acid, he invented the alembic still, giving the world intense rosewater and other perfumes and alcoholic spirits (although drinking them is haram, or forbidden, in Islam). Ibn Hayyan emphasised systematic experimentation and was the founder of modern chemistry. 7 The crank-shaft is a device which translates rotary into linear motion and is central to much of the machinery in the modern world, not least the internal combustion engine. One of the most important mechanical inventions in the history of humankind, it was created by an ingenious Muslim engineer called al-Jazari to raise water for irrigation. His 1206 Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices shows he also invented or refined the use of valves and pistons, devised some of the first mechanical clocks driven by water and weights, and was the father of robotics. Among his 50 other inventions was the combination lock. 8
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77
Source: http://www.physics911.net/olmsted.htm Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77 By Thomas R. Olmsted, M.D I am an ex Naval line officer and a psychiatrist in private practice in New Orleans, a Christian and homeschool dad. It troubled me a great deal that we rushed off to war on the flimsiest of evidence. I considered various ways to provide a smoking gun of who and why Sept 11th happened. Astute observers noticed right away that there were no Arabic sounding names on any of the flight manifests of the planes that crashed on that day. A list of names on a piece of paper is not evidence, but an autopsy by a pathologist, is. I undertook by FOIA request, to obtain that autopsy list and you are invited to view it below. Guess what? Still no Arabs on the list. In my opinion the monsters who planned this crime made a mistake by not including Arabic names on the original list to make the ruse seem more believable. When airline disasters occur, airlines will routinely provide a manifest list for anxious families. You may have noticed that even before Sep 11th, airlines are pretty meticulous about getting an accurate headcount before takeoff. It seems very unlikely to me, that five Arabs sneaked onto a flight with weapons. This is the list provided by American of the 56 passengers. On September 27th, the FBI published photos of the hijackers of Flight 77. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP), does a miraculous job and identifies nearly all the bodies on November 16th 2001. The AFIP suggest these numbers; 189 killed, 125 worked at the Pentagon and 64 were passengers on the plane. The AA list only had 56 and the list just obtained has 58. They did not explain how they were able to tell victims bodies from hijacker bodies. In fact, from the beginning NO explanation has been given for the extra five suggested in news reports except that the FBI showed us the pictures to make up the difference, and that makes it so. Now, being the trusting sort, I figured that the government would want to quickly dispel any rumors so we could get on with the chore of kicking Osama/Sadaam's butt (weren't these originally two different people?). It seemed simple to me. . .produce the names of all the bodies identified by the AFIP and compare it with the publicized list of passengers. So, I sent a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the AFIP and asked for an expedited response, because we were getting ready to send our boys to war on the pretext that Osama/Saddam had done the deed. Fourteen months later, a few US soldiers dead, many Iraqi civilians pushing up daisies, and I finally get the list. Believe me that they weren't a bit happy to give it up, and I really have no idea why they choose now to release it. No Arabs wound up on the morgue slab; however, three ADDITIONAL people not listed by American Airlines sneaked in. I have seen no explanation for these extras. I did American the opportunity to revise their original list, but they have not responded. The new names are: Robert Ploger, Zandra Ploger, and Sandra Teague. The AFIP claims that the only passenger body that they were not able to identify is the toddler, Dana Falkenberg, whose parents and young sister are on the list of those identified. The satanic masterminds behind this caper may be feeling pretty smug about the perfect crime, but they have left a raft of clues tying these unfortunates together. The Passengers In the foregoing, I presented evidence from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP), that there were no Arabs on American Airlines Flight 77. This doesn't really jibe with the official story, so someone isn't telling the truth. This list itself is suspect because there is a special group of bone guys that are called in whenever the government needs an adjustment to their story. About bone guys: No, we're not talking folks that hang around secret Ivy League fraternities. On May 31, 2002, the Washington Post had this to say about 'bone guys': ...When remains of the Waco dead or 9/11 Pentagon victims or Desert Storm casualties -- or most recently Chandra Levy -- need to be studied, the bone guys at the Smithsonian are called in. The bone guys read skeletons like intricate topological maps. Sometimes they can make identification from a skull fragment the size of a quarter. They can read race in the teeth and gender in the brow. They can tell you who had an asymmetric nose. They can tell you who may have been a factory worker, because bones grow more pronounced to accommodate certain muscles, and who may have been a weaver or a tailor, based on grooves in the teeth where thread was held In other words, these were the fellows who helped tidy up the government's story at Waco and are studying the Sept 11th remains as well. By now you have probably heard that many of the hijackers named by the FBI are alive and well. The Information Times, an on-line publication, reported that Saudi Arabia's
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77
Flight by disc, It was reported that the crash in the Antarctic was due to a last minute programming disc inserted into the flight control system. The disc had supposedly the wrong data and put the plane Air new Zealand flight 901,into mount Erebus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Erebus_disaster#Official_accident_report The pilots were acquitted on the second hearing/study. So why not the towers etc? The pilot has not the time to change/react as the pathcan beset before take off thus no one on board would know. - Original Message - From: fox mulder To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77 ***No virus was detected in the attachment no filenameYour mail has been scanned by InterScan.***-***Source: http://www.physics911.net/olmsted.htmAutopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77By Thomas R. Olmsted, M.DI am an ex Naval line officer and a psychiatrist inprivate practice in New Orleans, a Christian andhomeschool dad. It troubled me a great deal that werushed off to war on the flimsiest of evidence. Iconsidered various ways to provide a smoking gun ofwho and why Sept 11th happened. Astute observersnoticed right away that there were no Arabic soundingnames on any of the flight manifests of the planesthat "crashed" on that day.A list of names on a piece of paper is not evidence,but an autopsy by a pathologist, is. I undertook byFOIA request, to obtain that autopsy list and you areinvited to view it below. Guess what? Still no Arabson the list. In my opinion the monsters who plannedthis crime made a mistake by not including Arabicnames on the original list to make the ruse seem morebelievable.When airline disasters occur, airlines will routinelyprovide a manifest list for anxious families. You mayhave noticed that even before Sep 11th, airlines arepretty meticulous about getting an accurate headcountbefore takeoff. It seems very unlikely to me, thatfive Arabs sneaked onto a flight with weapons. This isthe list provided by American of the 56 passengers. OnSeptember 27th, the FBI published photos of the"hijackers" of Flight 77.Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Armed ForcesInstitute of Pathology (AFIP), does a miraculous joband identifies nearly all the bodies on November 16th2001.The AFIP suggest these numbers; 189 killed, 125 workedat the Pentagon and 64 were "passengers" on the plane.The AA list only had 56 and the list just obtained has58. They did not explain how they were able to tell"victims" bodies from "hijacker" bodies. In fact, fromthe beginning NO explanation has been given for theextra five suggested in news reports except that theFBI showed us the pictures to make up the difference,and that makes it so.Now, being the trusting sort, I figured that thegovernment would want to quickly dispel any rumors sowe could get on with the chore of kickingOsama/Sadaam's butt (weren't these originally twodifferent people?). It seemed simple to me. . .producethe names of all the bodies identified by the AFIP andcompare it with the publicized list of passengers. So,I sent a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request tothe AFIP and asked for an expedited response, becausewe were getting ready to send our boys to war on thepretext that Osama/Saddam had done the deed. Fourteenmonths later, a few US soldiers dead, many Iraqicivilians pushing up daisies, and I finally get thelist. Believe me that they weren't a bit happy to giveit up, and I really have no idea why they choose nowto release it.No Arabs wound up on the morgue slab; however, threeADDITIONAL people not listed by American Airlinessneaked in. I have seen no explanation for theseextras. I did American the opportunity to "revise"their original list, but they have not responded. Thenew names are: Robert Ploger, Zandra Ploger, andSandra Teague. The AFIP claims that the only"passenger" body that they were not able to identifyis the toddler, Dana Falkenberg, whose parents andyoung sister are on the list of those identified. Thesatanic masterminds behind this caper may be feelingpretty smug about the perfect crime, but they haveleft a raft of clues tying these unfortunatestogether.The PassengersIn the foregoing, I presented evidence from the ArmedForces Institute of Pathology (AFIP), that there wereno Arabs on American Airlines Flight 77. This doesn'treally jibe with the official story, so someone isn'ttelling the truth. This list itself is suspect becausethere is a special group of "bone guys" that arecalled in whenever the government needs an"adjustment" to their story.About "bone guys": No, we're not talking folks thathang
[Biofuel] off topic
Greetings, An unusual day, something positive on my email with out a price tag. Fun to look at if nothing else. Bright Blessings, Kim http://www.gogratitude.com/masterkey/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] (off topic) looking for Jan Warnqvist
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jan Warnqvist wrote: Sorry, Chip, the response failed to reach your e-mail adress twice, and I stored it in my other computer. I will re-send it again during the weekend Jan Sorry, my bad. overly aggresive greylisting caught ip address of leon.se, pretty much all of se in fact, which is strange, as i do get mail from Sweden. Shouldn't be a problem any more. Sorry about that. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDXpGl0STXFHxUucwRAsC4AJ4jdNL61qNXEay5l6+VROad8p4EcgCfQoY6 jjCfAltSNcL8a/N8o+6lsZc= =iwId -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] (off topic) looking for Jan Warnqvist
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 After my appeal for ethanol as fuel information a couple of weeks back, I was contacted by Jan Warnqvist who asked me to reply for more information. I did reply, and never heard from you again. Perhaps my off-list reply didn't make it for some reason. But here is the body of my response to you; - -- Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Chip. Hy Jan; I read your input on the JTF mailing list. I have experience in ethanol as a fuel for both 2-stroke and 4-stroke engines. Converting a 4-stroke engine to ethanol is not a big thing, however making a 2-stroke engine to run safe and properly on ethanol is a different matter not in the least due to its way of lubrication. yes, it is interesting. Were I trying to get a generic old 2 stoke to work, it would be one thing, as the older 2stoke engines used fuel/oil as a coolant as well as a lubricant/fuel. However, these newer husqvarna saw engines do a very wonderful job of completing the combustion in the combustion chamber, with very little un-spent fuel exhausting. Husqvarna has done an admirable job engineering these engines. However, here in the US, the alkyate fuels like Aspen are not available, or if they are, it's a real mystery as to where. Futher, even Aspen is non-renewable. Seems we in the US not only use the most petrol, we also use the lower quality petrols. Nothing to be proud of. The small things, like adapting the fuel system, guestimating the carb modifications and such are things I could probably do. However, trying to determine a good fuel/lubricant ratio for ethanol and perhaps using a bio-oil like biodiesel as a lubrication additive is quite simply beyond my quite limited skills. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks very much for the reply. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDXla10STXFHxUucwRAuu3AJsHOJRQ9isR+O3dgJ2d3d9fsvzsjgCfY/wd SMHmT9QGXU43efKQq64yXEo= =lOsk -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] (off topic) looking for Jan Warnqvist
Sorry, Chip, the response failed to reach your e-mail adress twice, and I stored it in my other computer. I will re-send it again during the weekend Jan - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 6:00 PM Subject: [Biofuel] (off topic) looking for Jan Warnqvist -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 After my appeal for ethanol as fuel information a couple of weeks back, I was contacted by Jan Warnqvist who asked me to reply for more information. I did reply, and never heard from you again. Perhaps my off-list reply didn't make it for some reason. But here is the body of my response to you; - -- Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Chip. Hy Jan; I read your input on the JTF mailing list. I have experience in ethanol as a fuel for both 2-stroke and 4-stroke engines. Converting a 4-stroke engine to ethanol is not a big thing, however making a 2-stroke engine to run safe and properly on ethanol is a different matter not in the least due to its way of lubrication. yes, it is interesting. Were I trying to get a generic old 2 stoke to work, it would be one thing, as the older 2stoke engines used fuel/oil as a coolant as well as a lubricant/fuel. However, these newer husqvarna saw engines do a very wonderful job of completing the combustion in the combustion chamber, with very little un-spent fuel exhausting. Husqvarna has done an admirable job engineering these engines. However, here in the US, the alkyate fuels like Aspen are not available, or if they are, it's a real mystery as to where. Futher, even Aspen is non-renewable. Seems we in the US not only use the most petrol, we also use the lower quality petrols. Nothing to be proud of. The small things, like adapting the fuel system, guestimating the carb modifications and such are things I could probably do. However, trying to determine a good fuel/lubricant ratio for ethanol and perhaps using a bio-oil like biodiesel as a lubrication additive is quite simply beyond my quite limited skills. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks very much for the reply. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDXla10STXFHxUucwRAuu3AJsHOJRQ9isR+O3dgJ2d3d9fsvzsjgCfY/wd SMHmT9QGXU43efKQq64yXEo= =lOsk -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Off Topic: regarding Katrina
I'll keep it brief! I'm an EMT (well, a WFR, but it's the same standard of care and better imo for rural rescue), have worked w/ search dogs (had 2, now have 1, who is very out of practice), etc. I very VERY much want to get to Louisiana or Mississippi to help out. I'm good on a boat...was a lifeguard forever...can weild a chainsaw or an axe w/ the best of them...basic repairs, water purification, etc. My dad's hometown is Buras LA, which is apparantly at least halfway...gone. Thus the reasons I want to get down there. I'm looking for anyone on this list who I can contact who could possibly assist me in going about getting there the right way. I obviously don't want to show up on my own, they'll tell me to go home. Sorry to bother everyone w/ this off topic post--but it's very dear to my heart ~~Thanks~~ Clark ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Off-topic but useful: New web-site for policy wonks
Thanks to Jack Stilwell of leftbio. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada -- Forwarded message -- Congressional Policy Briefings Available Online It's a bit like Napster -- but for policy wonks. A Washington research group has created a Web site where the public can read, submit and download the difficult-to-find public policy briefs members of Congress use to get up to speed on issues. This is a newspaper article about the new website and the circumstances surounding it: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/27/AR2005062701509.html?referrer=email and this is the website itself: http://www.opencrs.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Re: [Biofuel] off topic but need help.
thank for your reply, He was sick for a week ( he died last night..) no blook in the stool .. did not see any indication of parasites.. did not do a microscopic exam though. none of the other birds are sick so i really think he got stepped on ( they flock under my feet when i go to feed them) I am trying to make this my first step to being self supporting. Biofuel generation will be soon. Birds, goats, then biofuel. I really love this list even with the humorous 'bashing' that goes on sometimes. a couple of other questions. how can i get rid of cow parsnits without poisons? what is the best way of converting garbage into useful fuel for the home? thanks David Wood -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:11:38 +0900 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] off topic but need help. Hello David I believe some of you out there raise chickens and i need some help without going to the VET. I have a roster that just sat down one day and refused to move. push him and he just rolls, no strength in the leggs and am having to feed him by the hand. One soultion would be just to put him down but what do i do if the other birds start acting the same way if i can't get a handle one this one. No blood in the stool, running a bit of a fever. I really need some advice. E-mail directly [EMAIL PROTECTED] You don't say how long he's been ill. The longer the better, in a way - the longer the other birds have been exposed without getting ill, the better the chance that it's not bird flu. But there aren't really any guarantees of that short of having him checked by a vet, which I'd recommend, despite your reluctance. Bird flu is not something to mess with. If you think there might be a chance of it you should have him checked. Midori sent me this url with photos of bird flu symptoms. It's Japanese but it doesn't matter much - they're indicators, not conclusive, but maybe it'll help: http://www.pref.osaka.jp/nosei/safety_relief/influenza2.html from Osaka Prefectural animal office 1) blooding on comb 2) swelling face 3) blooding under the leg skin 4) sitting down It's just a few example of many, many symptoms Midori HTH Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Re: [Biofuel] off topic but need help.
Greetings, While I don't use garbage for fuel, I do use it for building things. I got the idea from earth bag construction, only I figured that the bags of dirt were way too heavy for me. I fill my old feed bags with trash, then build garden beds and protective walls with them. Cover with ferro cement and your done. pictures available on request. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:19 AM 6/15/2005, you wrote: what is the best way of converting garbage into useful fuel for the home? thanks David Wood - ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] off topic but need help.
I believe some of you out there raise chickens and i need some help without going to the VET. I have a roster that just sat down one day and refused to move. push him and he just rolls, no strength in the leggs and am having to feed him by the hand. One soultion would be just to put him down but what do i do if the other birds start acting the same way if i can't get a handle one this one. No blood in the stool, running a bit of a fever. I really need some advice. E-mail directly [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] off topic but need help.
Hello David I believe some of you out there raise chickens and i need some help without going to the VET. I have a roster that just sat down one day and refused to move. push him and he just rolls, no strength in the leggs and am having to feed him by the hand. One soultion would be just to put him down but what do i do if the other birds start acting the same way if i can't get a handle one this one. No blood in the stool, running a bit of a fever. I really need some advice. E-mail directly [EMAIL PROTECTED] You don't say how long he's been ill. The longer the better, in a way - the longer the other birds have been exposed without getting ill, the better the chance that it's not bird flu. But there aren't really any guarantees of that short of having him checked by a vet, which I'd recommend, despite your reluctance. Bird flu is not something to mess with. If you think there might be a chance of it you should have him checked. Midori sent me this url with photos of bird flu symptoms. It's Japanese but it doesn't matter much - they're indicators, not conclusive, but maybe it'll help: http://www.pref.osaka.jp/nosei/safety_relief/influenza2.html from Osaka Prefectural animal office 1) blooding on comb 2) swelling face 3) blooding under the leg skin 4) sitting down It's just a few example of many, many symptoms Midori HTH Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]Israel plan for new settler homes
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4605877.stm Friday, 3 June, 2005, 08:42 GMT 09:42 UK Israel plan for new settler homes Maale Adumim, east of Jerusalem, is already home to 35,000 settlers Israel has announced plans to build 22 more homes in a Jewish settlement in the West Bank. This comes a week after US President George W Bush called on Israel to stop all settlement expansion in line with commitments made under the roadmap. Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said the plan, announced on Thursday, undermined efforts to revive talks. He urged the international community to try to stop the building at the Maale Adumim settlement, east of Jerusalem. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is pushing ahead with plans to withdraw from the Gaza Strip but has said Israel will hold on to parts of the West Bank, including the Maale Adumim settlement and another at Ariel, to the north of Jerusalem. In April, Israel unveiled plans for 3,500 extra homes on occupied land near Maale Adumim - the largest Israeli settlement in the West Bank - forming a corridor to Jerusalem. Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza since 1967. The international community considers all settlements in Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this. ___ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic] Israeli settlers poisoning our sheep, say West Bank farmers
Source: The Independent http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=63 Israeli settlers poisoning our sheep, say West Bank farmers Highly toxic chemicals have been spread on Palestinian sheep pastures in what villagers believe is an escalation of a campaign of harassment against them by Jewish West Bank settlers. Amnesty International has called on the Israeli authorities to investigate fully a systematic poisoning attack which they say has killed more than 20 sheep in Tuwani, a village of 250 people, and two others in the south Hebron hills. The poisoning here and in Umm Faggara and Kharruba came to light after a series of violent attacks over the past year by masked men on international volunteers accompanying shepherds and protecting Palestinian children walking to and from school in Tuwani from the outlying village of Tuba. The last, on 16 February, left a Italian human rights activist, Johannes Steger, with a fractured jaw, a torn retina and amnesia. The villagers blame the nearby settlers of Maon and Havat Maon for the attacks, which have prompted the army and police to provide an armed escort for the children travelling round the settlement between the two villages. Amnesty has accused the Israeli police - who are fully responsible for this section of the occupied West Bank - of failing adequately to investigate the poisoning and bring its perpetrators to justice. Police say they have made arrests in connection with attacks but do not yet know who is responsible for the poisoning and that an investigation is continuing. The Palestinian farmers have been obliged to quarantine their flocks and stop selling or consuming their milk, meat and cheese in what one villager, Hafez Hareini, said was an economic disaster for the area. Salem al-Adra, 74, said he had lost three of his 30 sheep from two poisoning episodes, and that 80 others among the 1,250 grazed by shepherds in Tuwani and Umm Faggara had fallen sick, with symptoms such as diarrhoea and foaming at the mouth. The al-Adra family produced a bag of green pellets collected by volunteers which Amnesty says analysts from both Bier Zeit University and the Israeli Nature Protection Authority had identified as barley treated with 2-Fluoracetamide, a powerful rodenticide banned in several countries. Amnesty says a second poisoning uncovered in the first week of April used Brodifacoum, an anti-coagulant and another highly toxic rodenticide. Naim al-Adra said: The settlers just don't want us to enter our land. His father added: They are wicked people. It's very easy to explain. They just don't like the smell of Arabs. When they came here first in 1982 it was very easy for the first year. But then they said, 'We are going to take your land piece by piece'. Emily Amrusy, spokeswoman for the Yesha Council, the settlers' umbrella body, said the international activists had laid the poison to frame the settlers. She said she did not know why escorts had been provided for schoolchildren. Shelley Stanley, 22, an American volunteer working in Tuwani, said she had gone to Kyriat Arba police station to report that she had been told by a security guard at the Maon settlement that the poisoning had been the work of Havat Maon settlers. The policemen took a statement, she recalled, but when I asked what would happen, he said, 'This is way over our head; we are waiting for a decision'. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel][off topic]Israel clears officer of killing journalist who had white flag
Source: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=629505 Israel clears officer of killing journalist who had white flag By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem 15 April 2005 The British government formally protested to Israel after the army officer who opened fire when the film-maker James Miller was shot dead in Gaza two years ago was acquitted of disciplinary charges. The decision by the head of Israel's Southern Command to clear the officer overturned a recommendation by the military advocate general that he should be severely disciplined. Mr Miller was killed in Rafah in 2003 while walking back to his lodgings displaying a white flag and clearly identifying himself to troops as a journalist. The officer acquitted yesterday has admitted opening fire and a 79-page report by Brigadier-General Avihai Mandelblit, the advocate general, held that the first lieutenant in the Bedouin Desert Reconnaissance Battalion had fired in clear breach of army rules of engagement. Mr Miller's widow Sophy said the decision makes a mockery of Israeli claims that they follow due process where IDF soldiers have acted criminally and outside their own rules of engagement. Mr Miller's family had been bitterly disappointed when they were told at a meeting with General Mandleblit in Tel Aviv last month that the officer would not be prosecuted because of a lack of ballistic evidence proving the bullet which killed Mr Miller came from the officer's weapon. But they - and British officials - were assured that the advocate general was recommending a stiff disciplinary sentence. Baroness Symons, the Foreign Office minister, has summoned Zvi Heifetz, the Israeli ambassador in London, on Monday to protest at the decision and urge that it be reversed, a message also strongly conveyed in a letter last night by Simon McDonald, the British ambassador in Tel Aviv, in a letter to Shaul Mofaz, Israel's Defence Minister. Yesterday, Baroness Symons said she was shocked and saddened by the decision by the Brigadier-General Guy Tzur, the Southern Command chief of staff. The Israeli army said General Tzur decided that under the conditions then - including frequent terrorist attacks; thick darkness and earlier that same day the soldiers were fired at by anti-tank missiles - the shooting was reasonable. The family's lawyers are seeking reversal of the decision. . Mr Miller, an award-winning documentary maker who had been working on a film about Palestinian children caught up in the conflict, was shot while walking openly with two colleagues to their apartment. They were carrying a white flag with a torch shone on it, their helmets were clearly marked TV and they called out that they were British journalists as they approached an armoured personnel carrier to ask permission to leave. Israeli claims of heavy fire between Palestinians and Israeli troops at the time were disproved because an Associated Press cameraman filmed the incident. Mrs Miller said the family believed there had been no genuine will to uncover the truth because the site of the shooting had not been secured for forensic investigation. It was bulldozed three days later and Israeli authorities took 11 weeks to impound the guns involved in Mr Miller's death for ballistic examination. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel][off topic]Israel clears officer of killing journalist who had white flag
Mrs Miller said the family believed there had been no genuine will to uncover the truth Absolutely, just as they see no need to make slavery unlawful. When examined closely they do not occupy high moral ground. Kirk fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Source: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=629505 Israel clears officer of killing journalist who had white flag By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem 15 April 2005 The British government formally protested to Israel after the army officer who opened fire when the film-maker James Miller was shot dead in Gaza two years ago was acquitted of disciplinary charges. The decision by the head of Israel's Southern Command to clear the officer overturned a recommendation by the military advocate general that he should be severely disciplined. Mr Miller was killed in Rafah in 2003 while walking back to his lodgings displaying a white flag and clearly identifying himself to troops as a journalist. The officer acquitted yesterday has admitted opening fire and a 79-page report by Brigadier-General Avihai Mandelblit, the advocate general, held that the first lieutenant in the Bedouin Desert Reconnaissance Battalion had fired in clear breach of army rules of engagement. Mr Miller's widow Sophy said the decision makes a mockery of Israeli claims that they follow due process where IDF soldiers have acted criminally and outside their own rules of engagement. Mr Miller's family had been bitterly disappointed when they were told at a meeting with General Mandleblit in Tel Aviv last month that the officer would not be prosecuted because of a lack of ballistic evidence proving the bullet which killed Mr Miller came from the officer's weapon. But they - and British officials - were assured that the advocate general was recommending a stiff disciplinary sentence. Baroness Symons, the Foreign Office minister, has summoned Zvi Heifetz, the Israeli ambassador in London, on Monday to protest at the decision and urge that it be reversed, a message also strongly conveyed in a letter last night by Simon McDonald, the British ambassador in Tel Aviv, in a letter to Shaul Mofaz, Israel's Defence Minister. Yesterday, Baroness Symons said she was shocked and saddened by the decision by the Brigadier-General Guy Tzur, the Southern Command chief of staff. The Israeli army said General Tzur decided that under the conditions then - including frequent terrorist attacks; thick darkness and earlier that same day the soldiers were fired at by anti-tank missiles - the shooting was reasonable. The family's lawyers are seeking reversal of the decision. . Mr Miller, an award-winning documentary maker who had been working on a film about Palestinian children caught up in the conflict, was shot while walking openly with two colleagues to their apartment. They were carrying a white flag with a torch shone on it, their helmets were clearly marked TV and they called out that they were British journalists as they approached an armoured personnel carrier to ask permission to leave. Israeli claims of heavy fire between Palestinians and Israeli troops at the time were disproved because an Associated Press cameraman filmed the incident. Mrs Miller said the family believed there had been no genuine will to uncover the truth because the site of the shooting had not been secured for forensic investigation. It was bulldozed three days later and Israeli authorities took 11 weeks to impound the guns involved in Mr Miller's death for ballistic examination. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] [off topic]US opposes Israeli settlement plan
US opposes Israeli settlement plan The United States has opposed Israeli plans to expand the illegal Jewish settlement of Maale Adumim near Jerusalem with some 3500 homes. The White House on Monday also said US President George Bush would raise the issue during next week's scheduled meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. We oppose the expansion of any settlement activity. That has been our view and that remains our view, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said when asked about settlement expansion plans in the West Bank. Settlement activity will be a subject that comes up, when Bush and Sharon meet next Monday at the US president's ranch in Crawford, Texas, McClellan said. The spokesman's comments, however, fell short of the position expressed last month by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. Rice response In response to news of Israeli plans to build the homes between Maale Adumim and Arab East Jerusalem, Rice said settlement expansion should come to a full stop, because it could threaten progress towards peace. We oppose the expansion of any settlement activity. That has been our view and that remains our view A senior Bush administration official said Washington's stance had not softened since Rice's statement. The official called the White House's message direct, clear and unequivocal. Another official said the Bush administration was putting pressure on Israel largely behind the scenes before the Bush-Sharon meeting. Rice and Bush's national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, were expected to raise the issue later on Monday in talks with Dov Weissglass, a top Sharon adviser. Sharon's scheme Sharon believes an extension of Israel's biggest colony, already home to 30,000 people, is in line with Bush's assurance to him last year that Israel could expect to keep some large settlement blocs under a final peace accord. A strip between Jerusalem and Maale Adumim will certainly be built. At what time, under what circumstances, at which phase during negotiations ... I honestly don't know, said Israeli Vice-Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. Palestinians say the latest project on land Israel occupied in the 1967 Middle East war would cut them off from East Jerusalem, which they want as the capital of their future state. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] ( off topic) Israel confirms settlement growth
Source: BBC News Last Updated: Monday, 21 March, 2005, 16:36 GMT Israel confirms settlement growth About 390,000 Jewish settlers already live in the West Bank The Israeli government has confirmed plans to increase the size of its largest settlement in the West Bank. Approximately 3,500 homes are planned for Maale Adumim, east of Jerusalem. The settlements at Ariel in the northern West Bank, and Gush Etzion, south of Jerusalem, are also expected to be expanded. Israeli officials confirmed that Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz has approved the construction of the new homes in Maale Adumim. Defence Ministry spokeswoman Shiri Eden said the expansion of the settlement is part of an overall development plan for Maale Adumim approved by the government in 1999. Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said the Israeli plan threatened hopes of restarting the Middle East peace process. [This] sabotages all efforts seeking to get the peace process back on track, he told the AFP news agency. The Israeli government wants to determine Jerusalem's fate by presenting the settlements and wall as a fait accompli. We ask the Quartet and American President George Bush: what happened to the two-state vision and how can we have peace while settlements and the wall continue to be built? Mr Erekat said. Under the peace plan known as the roadmap, Israel pledged to freeze the growth of settlements on land occupied since 1967. The plan is sponsored by the quartet of the US, Russia, European Union and United Nations. The international community considers all settlements in Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this. About 400,000 Jewish settlers live in Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem - alongside more than four million Palestinians. To read the rest: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4367787.stm Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] off topic ; Annan: Hizb Allah must be factored in
Annan: Hizb Allah must be factored in The UN must recognise Hizb Allah as an important factor in implementing the resolution calling for Syria's full withdrawal from Lebanon and the disarmament of the country's militias, Secretary-General Kofi Annan has said. The UN chief was responding to a question about the disarmament of Hizb Allah, which showed its strength on Tuesday at a huge pro-Syrian rally in Beirut attended by hundreds of thousands of people who chanted anti-US slogans. Ê Two huge banners read in English: Thank you Syria and No to foreign interference. Annan said the world needed to accept that in every society different groups may hold different views. Ê Of course, we need to be careful of the forces at work in Lebanese society as we move forward, he said. Ê But even the Hizb Allah - if I read the message on the placards they are using - they are talking about non-interference by outsiders ... which is not entirely at odds with the Security Council resolution, that there should be withdrawal of Syrian troops, Annan said. But that having been said, we need to recognise that they are a force in society that one will have to factor in as we implement the resolution, he said. Ê Outnumbered The rally by Hizb Allah vastly outnumbered anti-Syrian rallies of the past weeks. Ê --- We need to be careful of the forces at work in Lebanese society as we move forward Kofi Annan, United Nations secretary-general - The Syrian-backed Lebanese resistance group, which is funded by Iran, is the best armed and best organised faction in Lebanon and enjoys strong support among Lebanon's Shia Muslim community. Many of the signs at the rally in Riad al-Sulh square denounced UN Security Council Resolution 1559, which calls for Syrian troops and intelligence agents to leave Lebanon immediately and demands the disarming of militias, referring to Hizb Allah. Syrian soldiers entered Lebanon in 1976 to try to quell a civil war that began the previous year. They remained through 14 years of fighting that ended in 1990, and about 14,000 are still there, though they have started pulling back to the border. No timetable Annan declined to discuss the timetable for withdrawal, saying he sent Terje Roed-Larsen, his top envoy on the Syria-Lebanon issue, to talk to top officials in Beirut and Damascus this week about the pullout and was awaiting his return. Ê After his discussion, then I will know better how we are going to proceed, Annan said. I am going to give a report to the council in April. I hope I will be able to report progress. The secretary-general was asked whether the United Nations was considering sending a force to Lebanon after the Syrian withdrawal to ensure security. The world body has a peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon, but it has no mandate to operate elsewhere in the country. I've read in certain newspapers that the UN may have to send in a force to monitor the withdrawal of the Syrian troops, but I have no such mandate as of today, Annan said, adding that he was not involved in any discussions about a UN or international force for Lebanon. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Off Topic: Hypocracy taken to new levels
Hi everyone, I friend came across this quote in the New York Times. ...absolutely incredible! Mike _ Lebanon, March 5th -- Washington's position on Syrian troop withdrawal. On Saturday, State Department officials stressed again that only a rapid, full withdrawal was acceptable. Anything less - phased withdrawal, partial withdrawal, leaving the intelligence agents in place - is a violation of the resolution, a senior aide said in a briefing. How fair an election can Lebanon hold if the troops are there to intimidate voters, people running for election, or people now in office? http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/international/middleeast/06syria.html?ex=1267765200en=7f09e9dbb6ec219eei=5088partner=rssnyt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Hypocracy taken to new levels
Anything less - phased withdrawal, partial withdrawal, leaving the intelligence agents in place - is a violation of the resolution, a senior aide said in a briefing. How fair an election can Lebanon hold if the troops are there to intimidate voters, people running for election, or people now in office? Considering American interference caused the civil war in the first place that is rally quite funny. Lebanon was really doing well before America didn't like the way its government was turning out. If I had caused half a million dead I'd keep my mouth shut and head down. Chris. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.2 - Release Date: 04/03/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic] Shooting of Palestinian girl threatens fragile ceasefire
Source: The Independent http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=606537 Shooting of Palestinian girl threatens fragile ceasefire By Eric Silver in Jerusalem 01 February 2005 The de facto ceasefire in the Gaza Strip was shattered yesterday when a 10-year-old Palestinian girl was shot dead in the playground of a primary school in the Rafah refugee camp. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), which runs Rafah Elementary School B, said Norhan Deeb was hit by a rifle bullet apparently fired from an Israeli army observation post 800 metres away. She suddenly screamed and fell bleeding, a witness said. The children scattered in all directions. Palestinian doctors said Norhan was shot in the head and was dead on arrival at hospital. Another girl, Aysha el-Khatib, aged seven, was wounded in the hand. Bullets also broke school windows. Yousef Ibrahim, a local human rights activist, said the shooting was unprovoked. Plainly embarrassed Israeli military sources said they knew of no shooting in the area at the time. They said they were conducting a thorough investigation in co-operation with the Palestinian security services, which were deployed in the Strip last week to prevent attacks on Jewish settlements. But Johan Eriksson, a spokesman for UNRWA, said: The only firing at that time in the Rafah area was from the observation post. It continued for some time. The children were in the yard for afternoon assembly. Teachers tried to get them into the building, but they were too late. Peter Hansen, UNRWA's commissioner general, said: Despite the hopeful signs of improvement in the situation, we have again been reminded of the continuing danger to which innocent children are exposed by the realities of the occupation and the irresponsible use of arms. The school has 2,500 pupils, aged seven to 11. Because of the overcrowded conditions, they study on a two-shift system. The shooting happened during a change of shifts. The school has been hit many times over the past four years, but yesterday's shooting was the first death there. UN officials said it was the fifth incident in two years in which children had been killed at Gaza schools. The Israelis were anxious to avoid an escalation a few hours before security chiefs from both sides were to meet in Tel Aviv and cement the ceasefire, but Hamas retaliated by launching five mortar rounds at nearby settlements. Two hit Neveh Dekalim, the regional centre, causing damage to one home. On Sunday night, soldiers shot and killed a 65-year-old man who entered an Israeli no-go area near the Egyptian border. Elsewhere in Gaza, Israeli troops found and defused a roadside bomb. The Israeli military said it checked the claims and found two cases in which soldiers opened fire, but neither was in the area where the girl was shot. According to our examination, the girl apparently was not shot by Israeli army gunfire, the military spokesman's office said. ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic] Shooting of Palestinian girl threatensfragile ceasefire
The first time this happened it was passed off as a chance affair, now it is evident that it was not an accident but a deliberate assasination of a school child. Who benefits from a lasting peace not being instituted in Palestine? There is only one group that works very hard to see to it that no such occurence will ever take place, and at the same time encroaches and steals yet more land at every turn. Luc - Original Message - From: fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic] Shooting of Palestinian girl threatensfragile ceasefire Source: The Independent http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=606537 Shooting of Palestinian girl threatens fragile ceasefire By Eric Silver in Jerusalem 01 February 2005 The de facto ceasefire in the Gaza Strip was shattered yesterday when a 10-year-old Palestinian girl was shot dead in the playground of a primary school in the Rafah refugee camp. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), which runs Rafah Elementary School B, said Norhan Deeb was hit by a rifle bullet apparently fired from an Israeli army observation post 800 metres away. She suddenly screamed and fell bleeding, a witness said. The children scattered in all directions. Palestinian doctors said Norhan was shot in the head and was dead on arrival at hospital. Another girl, Aysha el-Khatib, aged seven, was wounded in the hand. Bullets also broke school windows. Yousef Ibrahim, a local human rights activist, said the shooting was unprovoked. Plainly embarrassed Israeli military sources said they knew of no shooting in the area at the time. They said they were conducting a thorough investigation in co-operation with the Palestinian security services, which were deployed in the Strip last week to prevent attacks on Jewish settlements. But Johan Eriksson, a spokesman for UNRWA, said: The only firing at that time in the Rafah area was from the observation post. It continued for some time. The children were in the yard for afternoon assembly. Teachers tried to get them into the building, but they were too late. Peter Hansen, UNRWA's commissioner general, said: Despite the hopeful signs of improvement in the situation, we have again been reminded of the continuing danger to which innocent children are exposed by the realities of the occupation and the irresponsible use of arms. The school has 2,500 pupils, aged seven to 11. Because of the overcrowded conditions, they study on a two-shift system. The shooting happened during a change of shifts. The school has been hit many times over the past four years, but yesterday's shooting was the first death there. UN officials said it was the fifth incident in two years in which children had been killed at Gaza schools. The Israelis were anxious to avoid an escalation a few hours before security chiefs from both sides were to meet in Tel Aviv and cement the ceasefire, but Hamas retaliated by launching five mortar rounds at nearby settlements. Two hit Neveh Dekalim, the regional centre, causing damage to one home. On Sunday night, soldiers shot and killed a 65-year-old man who entered an Israeli no-go area near the Egyptian border. Elsewhere in Gaza, Israeli troops found and defused a roadside bomb. The Israeli military said it checked the claims and found two cases in which soldiers opened fire, but neither was in the area where the girl was shot. According to our examination, the girl apparently was not shot by Israeli army gunfire, the military spokesman's office said. ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]'Land grab' fears for Jerusalem
Source: BBC News Last Updated: Monday, 24 January, 2005, 12:39 GMT 'Land grab' fears for Jerusalem Israel has reportedly begun seizing tracts of east Jerusalem land owned by Palestinians in the West Bank under a law not used for decades. The government is enforcing a law on absentee landowners passed in 1950, the Israeli daily Haaretz says. Israeli lawyers acting for owners described the policy as a land grab. Thousands of Palestinians who possess land in East Jerusalem could lose ownership of their property. Some in Bethlehem and Beit Jalla lost rights to their land in August after it was cut off by the West Bank barrier. The move seems likely to fuel tensions over East Jerusalem. Israel has annexed all of the city and sees it as its exclusive domain. Palestinians hope East Jerusalem will be the capital of their future state. Under international law East Jerusalem is seen as occupied territory. To read the rest of the article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4201351.stm ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]Palestinian fighter buried alive
Source: Aljazeera http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4AA60F34-87ED-4D9E-BD87-7A1FDB153AB6. htm Palestinian fighter buried alive Saturday 25 December 2004, 19:11 Makka Time, 16:11 GMT Israeli occupation troops have killed a Palestinian resistance leader by burying him alive during a raid on the West Bank town of Jenin. According to Aljazeera's correspondent in the area, troops in more than 20 military vehicles entered the town in the early hours of Saturday, imposing a curfew and storming some Palestinian homes. The troops then surrounded a four-storey residential building in which Thair Abu al-Kamil, reported to be a deputy leader of al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, was holed up, reports Ali al-Sumudi. An exchange of gunfire was heard between al-Kamil and the troops before bulldozers arrived and demolished the building. Al-Kamil was trapped inside and buried alive. It took more than an hour for his body to be retrieved. The resistance leader has been on Israel's most wanted list for more than two years. Israeli troops withdrew from Jenin shortly after the operation. Residents of the town have staged a demonstration in protest against the incident. In a similar manner, Israeli troops had killed al-Kamil's brother and demolished his home of a month ago in the Jenin refugee camp. ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]Pro-Israel US lobbyists subpoenaed
Pro-Israel US lobbyists subpoenaed Thursday 02 December 2004 US sources say a spy infiltrated Rumsfeld's office Four members of a pro-Israel lobbying group have been served with subpoenas to appear before a grand jury as the FBI investigates whether Israel spied on the Pentagon. The American-Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) said on Wednesday that the FBI visited its offices to request files related to two employees and served four others with subpoenas. The influential lobbying group said it was cooperating with the investigation. We believe any court of law or grand jury will conclude that AIPAC employees have always acted legally, properly and appropriately, it said. The FBI, which was not immediately available to comment, has been investigating whether a Pentagon analyst passed secret papers to Israel about Iran. US government sources say the analyst in question is in Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's office and passed the papers through AIPAC. The FBI first raided AIPAC's offices in August, seizing computer files related to two employees. Israeli officials have denied spying on the United States. Agencies ___ Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality. Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]Pro-Israel US lobbyists subpoenaed
Special Plans by which the bad intel filtered back INTO the White House from Israel's counterpart in Sharon's office. This way they by-passed the usual intelligence channels and ended up getting into a war where American soldiers, if we must call them that, are being killed and maimed and thousand of other innocents as well over prodding from the Zionists and their Washington cabal outside regular intelligence which had already stated that the intel was not reliable, and in hind sight they were 100% right. That AIPAC is full of spies isn't really a question, they have been for years, the not discussed scenario is the OSP's back door for getting information INTO the US not so much getting it out. Luc - Original Message - From: fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [off topic]Pro-Israel US lobbyists subpoenaed Pro-Israel US lobbyists subpoenaed Thursday 02 December 2004 US sources say a spy infiltrated Rumsfeld's office Four members of a pro-Israel lobbying group have been served with subpoenas to appear before a grand jury as the FBI investigates whether Israel spied on the Pentagon. The American-Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) said on Wednesday that the FBI visited its offices to request files related to two employees and served four others with subpoenas. The influential lobbying group said it was cooperating with the investigation. We believe any court of law or grand jury will conclude that AIPAC employees have always acted legally, properly and appropriately, it said. The FBI, which was not immediately available to comment, has been investigating whether a Pentagon analyst passed secret papers to Israel about Iran. US government sources say the analyst in question is in Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's office and passed the papers through AIPAC. The FBI first raided AIPAC's offices in August, seizing computer files related to two employees. Israeli officials have denied spying on the United States. Agencies ___ Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality. Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] off topic-Bush's record speaks for itself
As Oprah Slaps Bush - With 30 states poised to smack down women's rights again, the one true savior emerges http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/10/13/notes101304.DTL EDITORIAL: A closer look at the Bush record http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/10/24/EDGK29CU7R1.DTL President Bush: Flip-Flopper-In-Chief http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/pp.asp?c=klLWJcP7Hb=118263 Bush says he's pro-life, then ruins the Earth http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2004/102004/10242004/1540986 Bush sells out people's health to religious zealots, corporate contributor http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/news/special_packages/election2004/9750522.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp Bush Is Seeking Newer, Smaller Nuclear Bombs http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0513-02.htm Tracking Bush's Flip Flops (Sept. 21, 2004): The John Kerry flip-flops on the issues attacks have been relentless these past few weeks, but has anyone really checked Bush's record? For the most part, the media has ignored Bush's obvious flip-flops, but on August 30, Bush's statement that the war on terror could not be won caught national attention. The next day, Bush was back to his firm resolution that we will win the war on terror. Fortunately, people are beginning to notice this disturbing trend. The Center for American Progress recently issued a series of Bush's embarrassing flip-flops on important issues: Social Security Surplus Bush Pledges Not to Touch Social Security Surplus: We're going to keep the promise of Social Security and keep the government from raiding the Social Security surplus. [Bush, 3/3/01] Bush Spends Social Security Surplus: The New York Times reported that the president's new budget uses Social Security surpluses to pay for other programs every year through 2013, ultimately diverting more than $1.4 trillion in Social Security funds to other purposes. [The New York Times, 2/6/02] Abortion Bush Supports a Woman's Right to Choose: Bush said he ...favors leaving up to a woman and her doctor the abortion question. [The Nation, 6/15/00, quoting the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal] Bush Opposes a Woman's Right to Choose: I am pro-life. [Governor Bush, 10/3/00] Weapons of Mass Destruction Bush Says We Found the Weapons of Mass Destruction: We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them. [Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03] Bush Says We Haven't Found Weapons of Mass Destruction: David Kay has found the capacity to produce weapons. And when David Kay goes in and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out. [Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04] Osama bin Laden Bush Wants Osama Dead or Alive: I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.' [Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 9/17/01] Bush Doesn't Care About Osama: I don't know where he is. You know, I just don't spend that much time on him... I truly am not that concerned about him. [Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02] Patient's Right to Sue GOVERNOR BUSH VETOES PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... Despite his campaign rhetoric in favor of a patients' bill of rights, Bush fought such a bill tooth and nail as Texas governor, vetoing a bill coauthored by Republican state Rep. John Smithee in 1995. He... constantly opposed a patient's right to sue an HMO over coverage denied that resulted in adverse health effects. [Salon, 2/7/01] ...CANDIDATE BUSH PRAISES TEXAS PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... We're one of the first states that said you can sue an HMO for denying you proper coverage... It's time for our nation to come together and do what's right for the people. And I think this is right for the people. You know, I support a national patients' bill of rights, Mr. Vice President. And I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supersede good law like we've got in Texas. [Governor Bush, 10/17/00] ...PRESIDENT BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION ARGUES AGAINST RIGHT TO SUE To let two Texas consumers, Juan Davila and Ruby R. Calad, sue their managed-care companies for wrongful denials of medical benefits Îwould be to completely undermine' federal law regulating employee benefits, Assistant Solicitor General James A. Feldman said at oral argument March 23. Moreover, the administration's brief attacked the policy rationale for Texas's law, which is similar to statutes on the books in nine other states. [Washington Post, 4/5/04] 3. Tobacco Buyout BUSH SUPPORTS CURRENT TOBACCO FARMERS'
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list..
At 11:31 PM 20/10/2004 +1000, you wrote: Hi, Just wondering.. Megan SE Gippsland, Victoria ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list..
Hi, Just wondering.. Megan SE Gippsland, Victoria Andrew in Melbourne ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list..
Robert, also in Melbourne. -Original Message- From: Andrew Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu 21/10/2004 10:01 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject:Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list.. Megan Woods wrote: Hi, Just wondering.. Megan SE Gippsland, Victoria Andrew in Melbourne ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list..
Mark in Gordon -Original Message- From: Andrew Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu 21/10/2004 10:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list.. Megan Woods wrote: Hi, Just wondering.. Megan SE Gippsland, Victoria Andrew in Melbourne ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list..
Chris up in Townsville QLD Original message Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 11:09:28 +1000 From: Robert Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list.. To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert, also in Melbourne. -Original Message- From: Andrew Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu 21/10/2004 10:01 To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list.. Megan Woods wrote: Hi, Just wondering.. Megan SE Gippsland, Victoria Andrew in Melbourne ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list..
Graham and Jeni in Kempsey NSW Oz - Original Message - From: Mark FLEMING [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 1:55 PM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list.. Mark in Gordon -Original Message- From: Andrew Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu 21/10/2004 10:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list.. Megan Woods wrote: Hi, Just wondering.. Megan SE Gippsland, Victoria Andrew in Melbourne ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ** This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain privileged information or confidential information or both. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender. ** ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list..
Nigel in Ballarat --- Robert Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, also in Melbourne. -Original Message- From: Andrew Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu 21/10/2004 10:01 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list.. Megan Woods wrote: Hi, Just wondering.. Megan SE Gippsland, Victoria Andrew in Melbourne ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list..
Just wondering.. Megan SE Gippsland, Victoria There are hundreds of Australians on the list! No need of count them all. Keith Addison List owner ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list..
Hi, Just wondering.. Megan SE Gippsland, Victoria There are hundreds of Australians on the list! No need of count them all. No worries.. Megan ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Off Topic: Any Australians on this list..
Just wondering.. Megan SE Gippsland, Victoria ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] (Off Topic) Fair Debates
Tell the FEC to give us a non-partisan debate Dear friends, A DC District Court has found compelling evidence that the Commission on Presidential Debates operates in a partisan manner, in violation of the law. The court has ordered the Federal Election Commission to investigate. I think this is very important. Several crucial issues will go un-addressed in the upcoming presidential debates because Bush and Kerry agree more than they disagree. For example, neither candidate will talk about how we can make government smaller. The debates would be far more meaningful -- and new ideas will get discussed -- if they included all candidates appearing on enough state ballots to have a mathematical chance of gaining an electoral majority. As of right now, that would mean only four additional candidates. These debates would also comply with the law by being truly non-partisan. Please go to http://action.downsizedc.org/friend.php?cid=9 right now and send an email to the FEC urging them to compel the CPD to include other qualified candidates. Why not hear from those other then the Scull Bones crew. Come to DownsizeDC.org to learn more: http://action.downsizedc.org/wyc.php?cid=9 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Off Topic) Fair Debates
Respectfully Richard; did you miss the bulletin? The two major political parties and their candidates do not want meaningful debates. Neither are prepared to answer tough intelligent questions, so they don't allow such questions to be asked, by anyone. They debate at their pleasure and the debates are nothing more than side shows we citizens of the USA call the election process. Doug --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.770 / Virus Database: 517 - Release Date: 09/28/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
