Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms
It looks like everyone is debating a self correcting problem, at least on the fuel/oil use. If we don't want to use the oil products, they are going to run out of them sooner or later-- use them faster. If the green house deal comes about, it will likely kill most the population off-- less people messing up the world. Like with Mt. St. Helen's, nature will correct itself, even if people don't. I've been observing the effects of global warming by the increase of the green house effect sense the late 1970s. In WI small ponds, wetlands and even the Great Lakes are evaporating to some extent or a remnant of the past. Neighboring Minnesota - Home of Minnesotans for an Energy-Efficient Economy (ME3) reported, The danger to wetlands would come from dryness as well as heat. W. Carter Johnson, professor of ecology at South Dakota State University, found that if temperatures increase 3.6¡F to 7¡F, precipitation would have to increase 10 to 25 percent to maintain the current status of wetlands. [32] But if increases in precipitation come in winter alone or in severe downpours, soils may dry anyway. Some computer projections show a loss of 50 percent or more in summer soil moisture. Johnson expects wetlands could be choked with cattails, which would reduce the habitat quality and number of ducks. Many wetlands might be lost completely. from - Minnesota's Wetlands and Prairies http://www.me3.org/issues/climate/withfire2002-06.html A total of 73 tornadoes touched down in Minnesota in 2001, shattering the all-time record of 57 set only three years earlier. In fact, more twisters hit here than in Oklahoma, the heart of tornado alley! Foreword - by Paul Douglas chief meteorologist for WCCO-TV, the top-ranked news station in the Twin Cities http://www.me3.org/issues/climate/withfire2002-01.html If a person wants to correct a problem, you don't start by howling at the moon, you look down to see if your own foot in in the mud and start from there. I guess it would just about be self correcting on drunk drivers, but there, I would help it along by making it murder 1 if a drunk driver killed anyone beyond themselves. In my research of the last few months on bio diesel, it looks like the biggest hindrance to getting anything off the ground is EPA or other government regulations. It does sound that way to me BUT comments like these from the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency : Virtually every component of what we know as weather or climate will change due to CO2 - caused warming, and few ecosystems will survive without disruption unless we begin to take this problem seriously.[12] http://www.me3.org/issues/climate/withfire2002-02.html and Coal is one of the dirtiest fuels we could choose for producing electricity.[63] http://www.me3.org/issues/climate/withfire2002-09.html leads me to believe big business influence with lawyers, lobbyist and legislators effects gov't revenue dependent upon company job placement/residence. This business cost is probably offset by disproportionate lower corporate taxes and increased income taxes hopefully balancing US state federal budgets alas 40 some states aren't. BUT then again. Business Note: BP Cuts Political Spending (1:20) Mentions British Petroleum, Amoco and Arco contributed to political parties in the USA one million dollars in 2000 and $250k 2001 mostly going to Republicans. The BP spokes woman says it was inherited by US Amoco Arco oil companies. By April 1st this will end [I'm guessing in the USA]. Resignations (6:00) The Bush administration is making headway in the environmental team via resignations. Living on Earth archive March 8, 2002 http://www.loe.org Remember the eager young Naderites? Although it seems like another lifetime, it was only 15 months ago that supporters of the Green Party were telling us, with a sense of foreboding in their cracking voices, that there was no difference between presidential candidates Al Gore and George W. Bush. Beating Around the Bush A look at the president's first year in office by Mathew Gross 12 Feb 2002 http://www.gristmagazine.com/grist/imho/gross021202.asp Grist, a project of Earth Day Network www.earthday.net The farmers represent and preserve the values of our nation: hard work, risk-taking, love of the land. I always like to say people who own their own land understand the necessity to be good stewards -- every day is Earth Day if you own your own land. The farmers represent love of family and love of our country. And farming is our first industry, the industry that feeds us, that clothes us and, increasingly, provides our energy. -- President George W. Bush Office of the Press Secretary November 28, 2001 President Urges Action on Economic Stimulus Proposal REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT TO FARMERS JOURNAL CORPORATION CONVENTION The J.W. Marriott
Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms
On Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 09:52:47PM -0600, MH wrote: The danger to wetlands would come from dryness as well as heat. W. Carter Johnson, professor of ecology at South Dakota State University, found that if temperatures increase 3.6¡F to 7¡F, precipitation would have to increase 10 to 25 percent to maintain the current status of wetlands. [32] But if increases in precipitation come in winter alone or in severe downpours, soils may dry anyway. Some computer projections show a loss of 50 percent or more in summer soil moisture. Johnson expects wetlands could be choked with cattails, which would reduce the habitat quality and number of ducks. Many wetlands might be lost completely. from - Minnesota's Wetlands and Prairies http://www.me3.org/issues/climate/withfire2002-06.html Hot damn! Cattails galore! Of course, that fellow's well considered opinion couldn't forsee the fantastic fortune awaiting the lowly cattail, the biofuel dream crop! It ain't that those nasty cattails are going to wipeout the native wetland (hmm, aren't they also saying that about that other northamerican native grass reed canary grass ??? What a sick joke! And if you can't figure out how to harvest cattail commercially, I guess you better not get into the commercial rice business, eh? -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms
It looks like everyone is debating a self correcting problem, at least on the fuel/oil use. If we don't want to use the oil products, they are going to run out of them sooner or later-- use them faster. If the green house deal comes about, it will likely kill most the population off-- less people messing up the world. Like with Mt. St. Helen's, nature will correct itself, even if people don't. If a person wants to correct a problem, you don't start by howling at the moon, you look down to see if your own foot in in the mud and start from there. I guess it would just about be self correcting on drunk drivers, but there, I would help it along by making it murder 1 if a drunk driver killed anyone beyond themselves. In my research of the last few months on bio diesel, it looks like the biggest hindrance to getting anything off the ground is EPA or other government regulations. Why would anything basically being a food product and not being consumed as an edible be regulated by anyone. There are other ways of controlling bad end products, around here the business won't last long, just by word of mouth. Other places, they like to sue until the lawyers are satisfied justice is done. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms
How about the number of people killed each year by contaminated food? When they tell you a child died from ecoli contamination they are telling you they can't run a business where they keep shit out of the hamburger. If my uncles slaughterhouse had done that he would have been out of business that week. There is NO excuse for that. But they will tell you it would be cost prohibitive as they go home to their steak dinner in their Mercedes limo. How about the number of people getting lead poisoning in the east from lead pipes? Or cryptosporidium in the water. No cure for that except your immune system so old folks die. And people with organ transplants and AIDS victims too as there immune function is inadequate. How about all the cancer? One in 3 now. In 1930 one in 100,000 was considered excessive. Why all the cancer and heart disease? Read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston Price. Then read the companion animal study Pottenger's Cats by Frances Pottenger. The food industry kills millions each year and the science has been known for over 70 years. Where is the concern for that? I drink less than 1 beer a month but I know a whipping boy when I see one. The Federal highway speed was dropped when Detroit made those little Pinto cars that are unsafe over 40 mph. It is a lot easier to drop the speed limit than make a decent vehicle. I rented one of those pieces of crap at the airport and had to do a fast lane change on the freeway. I could feel the car flex under me. I have owned sports cars--they were small-- and I know there is no excuse for such a shoddy product. Most people don't know good from bad as long as it has a nice coat of paint. How can the uninformed make informed decisions? The public is being crucified and all they know is they feel pain. Clueless by and large. End of rant Kirk -Original Message- From: Richard Morgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 9:24 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms It looks like everyone is debating a self correcting problem, at least on the fuel/oil use. If we don't want to use the oil products, they are going to run out of them sooner or later-- use them faster. If the green house deal comes about, it will likely kill most the population off-- less people messing up the world. Like with Mt. St. Helen's, nature will correct itself, even if people don't. If a person wants to correct a problem, you don't start by howling at the moon, you look down to see if your own foot in in the mud and start from there. I guess it would just about be self correcting on drunk drivers, but there, I would help it along by making it murder 1 if a drunk driver killed anyone beyond themselves. In my research of the last few months on bio diesel, it looks like the biggest hindrance to getting anything off the ground is EPA or other government regulations. Why would anything basically being a food product and not being consumed as an edible be regulated by anyone. There are other ways of controlling bad end products, around here the business won't last long, just by word of mouth. Other places, they like to sue until the lawyers are satisfied justice is done. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.332 / Virus Database: 186 - Release Date: 3/6/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.332 / Virus Database: 186 - Release Date: 3/6/2002 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms
Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Levin noted that the scientists refused to recommend a specific fuel economy standard and acknowledged that past increases in fuel economy led to smaller, lighter cars and thousands of additional traffic deaths. I challenge him to prove this claim. The only reason the smaller, lighter cars might lead to thousands of additional traffic deaths is because they're going to come into conflict with older, heaver vehicles. It's like saying they have to be built heavy because they've always been built heavy. With an attitude like that we'll never make any progress in fuel economy. Or safety. Building decent _safety equipment_ and -=*GETTING PEOPLE TO USE IT*=- is, IMHO _the_ major factor in vehicle safety. Much more so than the false sense of safety caused by big, heavy SUV's which are _more_ likely to roll over and kill their occupants than smaller, lighter vehicles. Particularly the ones who don't have their seat belts on. AP -- Aviation is more than a hobby. It is more than a job. It is more than a career. Aviation is a way of life. A second language for the world: www.esperanto.com Processor cycles are a terrible thing to waste: www.distributed.net Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms
How about a class action lawsuit against all the suv's driving around endangering people with more reasonably sized cars, or perhaps a special license for cars./ trucks over 5,000lbs, sort of like a cloas a license? MOSTLY joking) anton -Original Message- From: studio53 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 4:14 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms Wait a minute! I thought that most accidents were alcohol induced according to National statistics. Let's just outlaw alcohol8) ref http:// Jesse Parris|studio53| graphics / web design| stamford, ct|[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ This information , and any attachments may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the attention and use of the named addressee(s). ~~~ - Original Message - From: Alan S. Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:11 PM Subject: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Levin noted that the scientists refused to recommend a specific fuel economy standard and acknowledged that past increases in fuel economy led to smaller, lighter cars and thousands of additional traffic deaths. I challenge him to prove this claim. The only reason the smaller, lighter cars might lead to thousands of additional traffic deaths is because they're going to come into conflict with older, heaver vehicles. It's like saying they have to be built heavy because they've always been built heavy. With an attitude like that we'll never make any progress in fuel economy. Or safety. Building decent _safety equipment_ and -=*GETTING PEOPLE TO USE IT*=- is, IMHO _the_ major factor in vehicle safety. Much more so than the false sense of safety caused by big, heavy SUV's which are _more_ likely to roll over and kill their occupants than smaller, lighter vehicles. Particularly the ones who don't have their seat belts on. AP -- Aviation is more than a hobby. It is more than a job. It is more than a career. Aviation is a way of life. A second language for the world: www.esperanto.com Processor cycles are a terrible thing to waste: www.distributed.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms
- Original Message - From: Anton Berteaux To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 15:05 Subject: RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms How about a class action lawsuit against all the suv's driving around endangering people with more reasonably sized cars, or perhaps a special license for cars./ trucks over 5,000lbs, sort of like a cloas a license? MOSTLY joking) anton I have a better idea, while not everyone needs a small car, many people need a larger car / truck / SUV, so why don't we just outlaw all smaller cars, as being to unsafe to be on the road with larger vehicals, that are needed. Greg H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms
that was tried in the 1930`s - Original Message - From: studio53 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms Wait a minute! I thought that most accidents were alcohol induced according to National statistics. Let's just outlaw alcohol8) ref http:// Jesse Parris|studio53| graphics / web design| stamford, ct|[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ This information , and any attachments may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the attention and use of the named addressee(s). ~~~ - Original Message - From: Alan S. Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:11 PM Subject: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Levin noted that the scientists refused to recommend a specific fuel economy standard and acknowledged that past increases in fuel economy led to smaller, lighter cars and thousands of additional traffic deaths. I challenge him to prove this claim. The only reason the smaller, lighter cars might lead to thousands of additional traffic deaths is because they're going to come into conflict with older, heaver vehicles. It's like saying they have to be built heavy because they've always been built heavy. With an attitude like that we'll never make any progress in fuel economy. Or safety. Building decent _safety equipment_ and -=*GETTING PEOPLE TO USE IT*=- is, IMHO _the_ major factor in vehicle safety. Much more so than the false sense of safety caused by big, heavy SUV's which are _more_ likely to roll over and kill their occupants than smaller, lighter vehicles. Particularly the ones who don't have their seat belts on. AP -- Aviation is more than a hobby. It is more than a job. It is more than a career. Aviation is a way of life. A second language for the world: www.esperanto.com Processor cycles are a terrible thing to waste: www.distributed.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms
Wait a minute! I thought that most accidents were alcohol induced according to National statistics. Let's just outlaw alcohol8) ref http:// Jesse Parris|studio53| graphics / web design| stamford, ct|[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ This information , and any attachments may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the attention and use of the named addressee(s). ~~~ - Original Message - From: Alan S. Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:11 PM Subject: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Levin noted that the scientists refused to recommend a specific fuel economy standard and acknowledged that past increases in fuel economy led to smaller, lighter cars and thousands of additional traffic deaths. I challenge him to prove this claim. The only reason the smaller, lighter cars might lead to thousands of additional traffic deaths is because they're going to come into conflict with older, heaver vehicles. It's like saying they have to be built heavy because they've always been built heavy. With an attitude like that we'll never make any progress in fuel economy. Or safety. Building decent _safety equipment_ and -=*GETTING PEOPLE TO USE IT*=- is, IMHO _the_ major factor in vehicle safety. Much more so than the false sense of safety caused by big, heavy SUV's which are _more_ likely to roll over and kill their occupants than smaller, lighter vehicles. Particularly the ones who don't have their seat belts on. AP -- Aviation is more than a hobby. It is more than a job. It is more than a career. Aviation is a way of life. A second language for the world: www.esperanto.com Processor cycles are a terrible thing to waste: www.distributed.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms
Fine by me. - Original Message - From: Anton Berteaux Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 16:25 Subject: RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms and requiring all citizens to carry guns, so that noone is at a disadvantage. anton -Original Message- From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:16 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms - Original Message - From: Anton Berteaux To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 15:05 Subject: RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms How about a class action lawsuit against all the suv's driving around endangering people with more reasonably sized cars, or perhaps a special license for cars./ trucks over 5,000lbs, sort of like a cloas a license? MOSTLY joking) anton I have a better idea, while not everyone needs a small car, many people need a larger car / truck / SUV, so why don't we just outlaw all smaller cars, as being to unsafe to be on the road with larger vehicals, that are needed. Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms
and outlaw biccles and require children to be transported in reinforced steel cges, have separate and protected pedestrian ways, with all other pedestrian acces denied as being unsafe, due to the large size and speed of cars. anton -Original Message- From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 4:53 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms Fine by me. - Original Message - From: Anton Berteaux Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 16:25 Subject: RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms and requiring all citizens to carry guns, so that noone is at a disadvantage. anton -Original Message- From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:16 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms - Original Message - From: Anton Berteaux To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 15:05 Subject: RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms How about a class action lawsuit against all the suv's driving around endangering people with more reasonably sized cars, or perhaps a special license for cars./ trucks over 5,000lbs, sort of like a cloas a license? MOSTLY joking) anton I have a better idea, while not everyone needs a small car, many people need a larger car / truck / SUV, so why don't we just outlaw all smaller cars, as being to unsafe to be on the road with larger vehicals, that are needed. Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms
how about a class action suit against people who want to further limit the rights of people who want to do as they please. isn't the government doing enough damage to our personal liberties already. i am picking up a 2000lbs. stainless steel tank tommorrow to process biodiesel, would you rather strap it on top of your honda or use my dodge 4x4 pickup. we need real solutions for a real world. not a flame just an opinion. opinions are like noses- everyone has one and thinks theirs is best. kindest regards, roger How about a class action lawsuit against all the suv's driving around endangering people with more reasonably sized cars, or perhaps a special license for cars./ trucks over 5,000lbs, sort of like a cloas a license? MOSTLY joking) anton -Original Message- From: studio53 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 4:14 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms Wait a minute! I thought that most accidents were alcohol induced according to National statistics. Let's just outlaw alcohol8) ref http:// Jesse Parris|studio53| graphics / web design| stamford, ct|[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ This information , and any attachments may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the attention and use of the named addressee(s). ~~~ - Original Message - From: Alan S. Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:11 PM Subject: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Levin noted that the scientists refused to recommend a specific fuel economy standard and acknowledged that past increases in fuel economy led to smaller, lighter cars and thousands of additional traffic deaths. I challenge him to prove this claim. The only reason the smaller, lighter cars might lead to thousands of additional traffic deaths is because they're going to come into conflict with older, heaver vehicles. It's like saying they have to be built heavy because they've always been built heavy. With an attitude like that we'll never make any progress in fuel economy. Or safety. Building decent _safety equipment_ and -=*GETTING PEOPLE TO USE IT*=- is, IMHO _the_ major factor in vehicle safety. Much more so than the false sense of safety caused by big, heavy SUV's which are _more_ likely to roll over and kill their occupants than smaller, lighter vehicles. Particularly the ones who don't have their seat belts on. AP -- Aviation is more than a hobby. It is more than a job. It is more than a career. Aviation is a way of life. A second language for the world: www.esperanto.com Processor cycles are a terrible thing to waste: www.distributed.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms
Actually, I'd rather put it on a trailer and haul it behind my '86 Golf diesel. Funny thing about trailers, you can unhitch 'em. Good fortune on your upgrade! Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:34 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms how about a class action suit against people who want to further limit the rights of people who want to do as they please. isn't the government doing enough damage to our personal liberties already. i am picking up a 2000lbs. stainless steel tank tommorrow to process biodiesel, would you rather strap it on top of your honda or use my dodge 4x4 pickup. we need real solutions for a real world. not a flame just an opinion. opinions are like noses- everyone has one and thinks theirs is best. kindest regards, roger How about a class action lawsuit against all the suv's driving around endangering people with more reasonably sized cars, or perhaps a special license for cars./ trucks over 5,000lbs, sort of like a cloas a license? MOSTLY joking) anton -Original Message- From: studio53 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 4:14 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens,pitting conservationists against soccer moms Wait a minute! I thought that most accidents were alcohol induced according to National statistics. Let's just outlaw alcohol8) ref http:// Jesse Parris|studio53| graphics / web design| stamford, ct|[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ This information , and any attachments may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the attention and use of the named addressee(s). ~~~ - Original Message - From: Alan S. Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:11 PM Subject: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Levin noted that the scientists refused to recommend a specific fuel economy standard and acknowledged that past increases in fuel economy led to smaller, lighter cars and thousands of additional traffic deaths. I challenge him to prove this claim. The only reason the smaller, lighter cars might lead to thousands of additional traffic deaths is because they're going to come into conflict with older, heaver vehicles. It's like saying they have to be built heavy because they've always been built heavy. With an attitude like that we'll never make any progress in fuel economy. Or safety. Building decent _safety equipment_ and -=*GETTING PEOPLE TO USE IT*=- is, IMHO _the_ major factor in vehicle safety. Much more so than the false sense of safety caused by big, heavy SUV's which are _more_ likely to roll over and kill their occupants than smaller, lighter vehicles. Particularly the ones who don't have their seat belts on. AP -- Aviation is more than a hobby. It is more than a job. It is more than a career. Aviation is a way of life. A second language for the world: www.esperanto.com Processor cycles are a terrible thing to waste: www.distributed.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
[biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms
http://enn.com/news/wire-stories/2002/03/03132002/ap_46655.asp - 3/13/2002 - ENN.com Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms Wednesday, March 13, 2002 By H. Josef Hebert, Associated Press WASHINGTON - One side sees improved auto fuel economy as key to the nation's energy security. The other side predicts an end to affordable and safe SUVs, minivans, and pickup trucks. The debate over how best to cut the amount of gasoline consumed on U.S. highways took on an emotionally charged tone Tuesday, as the Senate began considering a 50 percent boost in auto fuel efficiency. Critics of the proposal argue the mileage requirements, which would be phased in over 13 years, can't be met without making cars smaller, lighter, and less safe and limiting consumers' choices on the kinds of vehicles they are able to buy. They offered an alternative that would require the Transportation Department to increase auto fuel efficiency within two years but set no specific standard. This would do nothing to improve fuel efficiency, said senators seeking the 50 percent increase. American women love their SUVs and minivans ... because of their safety, proclaimed Sen. Barbara Mikulski, D-Md., who warned that the wrath of soccer moms would be heard if the Senate approved the tougher standards. Another senator said motorists would end up in glorified golf carts. John Kerry, D-Mass., sponsor of the fuel economy measure, called such predictions Alice in Wonderland comments that ignore that we are going backward in reducing the amount of fuel used by motorists. It's a scare tactic on soccer moms, complained Kerry. Kerry wants automakers to increase the average mileage of their new fleets to 36 miles per gallon by 2015, about 50 percent from current federal standards. He insists they have the technology to do it without making vehicles smaller or less safe or sacrificing the popular SUVs and minivans. Nonsense, argue his critics. In an opening salvo Tuesday, they enlisted the fear of retribution from soccer moms and pickup pops, who they maintain, would no longer be able to buy the vehicles they love. And, they argued, it would mean lost auto industry jobs as U.S. manufacturers find it harder to compete with foreign producers. Supporters of the new measures argued that it's impossible to address the broader issue of energy conservation without dramatically reducing the amount of fuel guzzled on America's highways. Passenger vehicles account for 40 percent of all the oil used today, they said. While auto fuel efficiency increased dramatically in the late 1970s and early '80s, there has been no progress since 1988, when the motor fleet reached a peak of just under 26 mpg. The average for all vehicles was 24 mpg in 2000, about what it was 22 years ago. The primary reason has been the huge popularity of sport utility vehicles (SUVs) and minivans, which are subject to less stringent fuel economy requirements and average about 20 mpg, as opposed to 28 mpg for passenger cars, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. These vehicles, along with pickups, now account for nearly half of all vehicles sold. The proposal crafted by Kerry and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., would close the gap between cars and SUVs in addition to boosting overall mileage of vehicle fleets. In an attempt to garner additional support, Kerry said he is considering exempting larger pickups. No one in America will have to drive a smaller car, insisted Kerry. The technology is available today to meet the higher standard. Sen. Christopher Bond, R-Mo., said larger vehicles would be sacrificed. About the only way we could get there is to put everybody into glorified golf carts, said Bond. You'd have families picking up their kids in subcompacts. Bond and Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., offered a more industry-friendly proposal that would require the Transportation Department to increase fuel economy requirements but would set no specific standard. It requires the agency to consider safety, job losses, industry competition, and energy conservation in crafting a new rule. As the Senate debate unfolded Tuesday, both sides cited a study last year on fuel economy by the National Academy of Sciences. Kerry said the study concluded that significant fuel economy gains can be made using current technology over the next 10 to 15 years without making vehicles smaller or sacrificing performance. The report also said the costs of these improvements can be recouped through fuel savings. Levin noted that the scientists refused to recommend a specific fuel economy standard and acknowledged that past increases in fuel economy led to smaller, lighter cars and thousands of additional traffic deaths. Copyright 2002, Associated Press All Rights Reserved Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address.
Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms
It seems to me if a person wanted to cut fuel use all they would have to do is change the system of public transport. Instead of charging a set amount for city busses, charge a nickel between numbered mile stops. A person is more likely to run for bread in a bus for ten cents than get clipped for a buck or more for a short distance. Wouldn't it be better to have a thousand full busses going everywhere in a town than 25,000 cars covering the same places with constant engine starts between points. Of course it wouldn't hurt to run the busses every five to ten minutes apart instead of every twenty or whatever. Keith Addison wrote: http://enn.com/news/wire-stories/2002/03/03132002/ap_46655.asp - 3/13/2002 - ENN.com Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms Wednesday, March 13, 2002 By H. Josef Hebert, Associated Press WASHINGTON - One side sees improved auto fuel economy as key to the nation's energy security. The other side predicts an end to affordable and safe SUVs, minivans, and pickup trucks. The debate over how best to cut the amount of gasoline consumed on U.S. highways took on an emotionally charged tone Tuesday, as the Senate began considering a 50 percent boost in auto fuel efficiency. Critics of the proposal argue the mileage requirements, which would be phased in over 13 years, can't be met without making cars smaller, lighter, and less safe and limiting consumers' choices on the kinds of vehicles they are able to buy. They offered an alternative that would require the Transportation Department to increase auto fuel efficiency within two years but set no specific standard. This would do nothing to improve fuel efficiency, said senators seeking the 50 percent increase. American women love their SUVs and minivans ... because of their safety, proclaimed Sen. Barbara Mikulski, D-Md., who warned that the wrath of soccer moms would be heard if the Senate approved the tougher standards. Another senator said motorists would end up in glorified golf carts. John Kerry, D-Mass., sponsor of the fuel economy measure, called such predictions Alice in Wonderland comments that ignore that we are going backward in reducing the amount of fuel used by motorists. It's a scare tactic on soccer moms, complained Kerry. Kerry wants automakers to increase the average mileage of their new fleets to 36 miles per gallon by 2015, about 50 percent from current federal standards. He insists they have the technology to do it without making vehicles smaller or less safe or sacrificing the popular SUVs and minivans. Nonsense, argue his critics. In an opening salvo Tuesday, they enlisted the fear of retribution from soccer moms and pickup pops, who they maintain, would no longer be able to buy the vehicles they love. And, they argued, it would mean lost auto industry jobs as U.S. manufacturers find it harder to compete with foreign producers. Supporters of the new measures argued that it's impossible to address the broader issue of energy conservation without dramatically reducing the amount of fuel guzzled on America's highways. Passenger vehicles account for 40 percent of all the oil used today, they said. While auto fuel efficiency increased dramatically in the late 1970s and early '80s, there has been no progress since 1988, when the motor fleet reached a peak of just under 26 mpg. The average for all vehicles was 24 mpg in 2000, about what it was 22 years ago. The primary reason has been the huge popularity of sport utility vehicles (SUVs) and minivans, which are subject to less stringent fuel economy requirements and average about 20 mpg, as opposed to 28 mpg for passenger cars, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. These vehicles, along with pickups, now account for nearly half of all vehicles sold. The proposal crafted by Kerry and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., would close the gap between cars and SUVs in addition to boosting overall mileage of vehicle fleets. In an attempt to garner additional support, Kerry said he is considering exempting larger pickups. No one in America will have to drive a smaller car, insisted Kerry. The technology is available today to meet the higher standard. Sen. Christopher Bond, R-Mo., said larger vehicles would be sacrificed. About the only way we could get there is to put everybody into glorified golf carts, said Bond. You'd have families picking up their kids in subcompacts. Bond and Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., offered a more industry-friendly proposal that would require the Transportation Department to increase fuel economy requirements but would set no specific standard. It requires the agency to consider safety, job losses, industry competition, and energy conservation in crafting a new rule. As the Senate debate unfolded Tuesday, both sides cited a study last year on fuel economy by the National Academy of Sciences. Kerry said the study concluded that
Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms
- Original Message - From: Richard Morgan Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 09:00 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms It seems to me if a person wanted to cut fuel use all they would have to do is change the system of public transport. Instead of charging a set amount for city busses, charge a nickel between numbered mile stops. A person is more likely to run for bread in a bus for ten cents than get clipped for a buck or more for a short distance. Wouldn't it be better to have a thousand full busses going everywhere in a town than 25,000 cars covering the same places with constant engine starts between points. Of course it wouldn't hurt to run the busses every five to ten minutes apart instead of every twenty or whatever. Yea, they run about once every 45 min to an hour here, and even then they don't make any garentees about time and service. One time I needed the bus to get to an interview across town, twenty min. if I had my car, I left 2 hrs early, half way thru, the ride, had to switch to a cab because with 30 min left, I was barley halfway to were I needed to be. I then took the bus back to the interview, and it took 3 hrs. to get home, and this is a small town. I'll never ride a bus again if I have a choice. Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms
I am sorry to hear about the poor bus system Greg. I live in Portland, OR and the bus system here is great. I take the bus to school, work, play, and everything inbetween. The bus system seems to run on time + or - 5 minutes at the most. The main problem here, in my opinion, is that the transportation system doesn't use any type of biofuel and honestly doesn't seem that interested. I used to live in CO and some of the local buses ran off of ethanol atleast. They even had a bus that went to many of the ski resorts on the weekend. In college we used to fight for the passes and the bus system couldn't keep up with the demand. I live outside the city so I like the fact that bus system doesn't charge on mileage(!) but I agree that to many it seems like a pain to pay a dollar to head up to the store. I don't know if it is true or not, but my dad used to tell me that to run a car (on top of the subsidized price we pay for gas and the environmental damage it does) it costs around $1 to $2 a mile to run on upkeep and insurance. If this is the case, then buses could be cheaper, we just don't realize it. In the end though, if buses aren't reliable then people wont use them. -rawls A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, sail a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, and die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - R. A. Heinlein -Original Message- From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:21 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms - Original Message - From: Richard Morgan Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 09:00 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms It seems to me if a person wanted to cut fuel use all they would have to do is change the system of public transport. Instead of charging a set amount for city busses, charge a nickel between numbered mile stops. A person is more likely to run for bread in a bus for ten cents than get clipped for a buck or more for a short distance. Wouldn't it be better to have a thousand full busses going everywhere in a town than 25,000 cars covering the same places with constant engine starts between points. Of course it wouldn't hurt to run the busses every five to ten minutes apart instead of every twenty or whatever. Yea, they run about once every 45 min to an hour here, and even then they don't make any garentees about time and service. One time I needed the bus to get to an interview across town, twenty min. if I had my car, I left 2 hrs early, half way thru, the ride, had to switch to a cab because with 30 min left, I was barley halfway to were I needed to be. I then took the bus back to the interview, and it took 3 hrs. to get home, and this is a small town. I'll never ride a bus again if I have a choice. Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms
- Original Message - From: Rawls Moore Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 18:09 Subject: RE: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms I am sorry to hear about the poor bus system Greg. I live in Portland, OR and the bus system here is great. I take the bus to school, work, play, and everything inbetween. The bus system seems to run on time + or - 5 minutes at the most. What area of Portland? I lived in the Tigard area just the other side of the Beverton city limit, for 18 months, just a few years ago. I know that Portland has a fairly good bus system. I live outside the city so I like the fact that bus system doesn't charge on mileage(!) but I agree that to many it seems like a pain to pay a dollar to head up to the store. I don't know if it is true or not, but my dad used to tell me that to run a car (on top of the subsidized price we pay for gas and the environmental damage it does) it costs around $1 to $2 a mile to run on upkeep and insurance. If this is the case, then buses could be cheaper, we just don't realize it. Around here, last time I road the bus, think that it cost about a doller, I've heard a rumor that it's up to 1.50 or so. at that rate, a car is a better deal even at $1.50 a mile, because of all the time saved, if for nothing else. Greg H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms
I don't think that's a valid arguement against buses anyway, most places have long-term bus passes you can buy, or are given to you by school, welfare, jobfare, etc. They aren't that much, if you had any interest in regular bus use, of course you'd buy one, then it makes no difference if you're going 3 blocks or 100. But if it's only 3 blks, why not walk anyway? On Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 05:09:33PM -0800, Rawls Moore wrote: I am sorry to hear about the poor bus system Greg. I live in Portland, OR and the bus system here is great. I take the bus to school, work, play, and everything inbetween. The bus system seems to run on time + or - 5 minutes at the most. The main problem here, in my opinion, is that the transportation system doesn't use any type of biofuel and honestly doesn't seem that interested. I used to live in CO and some of the local buses ran off of ethanol atleast. They even had a bus that went to many of the ski resorts on the weekend. In college we used to fight for the passes and the bus system couldn't keep up with the demand. I live outside the city so I like the fact that bus system doesn't charge on mileage(!) but I agree that to many it seems like a pain to pay a dollar to head up to the store. I don't know if it is true or not, but my dad used to tell me that to run a car (on top of the subsidized price we pay for gas and the environmental damage it does) it costs around $1 to $2 a mile to run on upkeep and insurance. If this is the case, then buses could be cheaper, we just don't realize it. In the end though, if buses aren't reliable then people wont use them. -rawls A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, sail a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, and die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - R. A. Heinlein -Original Message- From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:21 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms - Original Message - From: Richard Morgan Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 09:00 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Debate on fuel economy standards opens, pitting conservationists against soccer moms It seems to me if a person wanted to cut fuel use all they would have to do is change the system of public transport. Instead of charging a set amount for city busses, charge a nickel between numbered mile stops. A person is more likely to run for bread in a bus for ten cents than get clipped for a buck or more for a short distance. Wouldn't it be better to have a thousand full busses going everywhere in a town than 25,000 cars covering the same places with constant engine starts between points. Of course it wouldn't hurt to run the busses every five to ten minutes apart instead of every twenty or whatever. Yea, they run about once every 45 min to an hour here, and even then they don't make any garentees about time and service. One time I needed the bus to get to an interview across town, twenty min. if I had my car, I left 2 hrs early, half way thru, the ride, had to switch to a cab because with 30 min left, I was barley halfway to were I needed to be. I then took the bus back to the interview, and it took 3 hrs. to get home, and this is a small town. I'll never ride a bus again if I have a choice. Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
