Re: Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hi Ryan Keith wrote: And there are people who demand to know: What's all this off-topic political crap got to do with BIOFUELS???, which usually turns out to be another way of saying they disagree with it and want it censored. Keith, I for one will put in my 2 cents and say quite honestly that I wouldn't be glued to my computer reading email updates of this list if it weren't for the political discussion. I live in the South Dakota, USA. Most people here are Red state type of people who don't want change as long as there is a conservative in office pretending he/she cares. I love that we can all speak freely, and I especially love that I can read what people from around the world think, especially about America...I agree with most of them. I am also thankful that you post so many articles, I would not be exposed to this information otherwise. This list has changed my world view for the better. Thank you for your hard work, and thank you to all the contributers. Thanks so much for taking the time to say so, it's much appreciated, and you're most welcome. Best wishes Keith Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hi Chris hi, keith. i have my own 'issues' with the big enviro groups. http://www.sacbee.com/news/projects/environment/index02.html Environment, Inc. http://counterpunch.org/donnelly05242005.html Michael Donnelly: May 24, 2005 Behind the Green(back) Curtain http://counterpunch.org/donnelly05102005.html Michael Donnelly: From Roadless to Clueless May 10, 2005 From Roadless to Clueless... The Great Stillborn Eco-Victory From John Stauber: Big environmental organizations, socially responsible investment funds, and other groups perpetuate the myth that if we just write checks to them, they'll heal the environment, reform the corrupt campaign-finance system, protect our freedom of speech, and reign in corporate power. This is a dangerous falsehood, because it implies that we don't have to sweat and struggle to make democracy work. It's so much easier to write a check for twenty-five or fifty dollars than it is to integrate our concerns about critical issues into our daily lives and organize with our neighbors for democracy. Many so-called public-interest organizations have become big businesses, multinational nonprofit corporations. The PR industry knows this and exploits it well with the type of co-optation strategies that Duchin recommends. ... E. Bruce Harrison, one of the most effective public-relations practitioners in the business, knows that all too well. He's made a lucrative career out of helping polluting companies defeat environmental regulations while simultaneously giving the companies a green public image. In the industry, they call him the Dean of Green. As a longtime opponent of the environmental movement, Harrison has developed some interesting insights into its failures. He says, The environmental movement is dead. It really died in the last fifteen years, from success. I think he's correct. What he means is that, in the eighties and nineties, environmentalism became a big business, and organizations like the Audubon Society, the Wilderness Society, the National Wildlife Federation, the Environmental Defense Fund, and the Natural Resources Defense Council became competing multi-million-dollar bureaucracies. These organizations, Harrison says, seem much more interested in the business of greening than in fighting for fundamental social change. He points out, for instance, that the Environmental Defense Fund (whose executive director makes a quarter of a million dollars a year) sat down and cut a deal with McDonald's that was probably worth hundreds of millions of dollars in publicity to the fast-food giant, because it helped to greenwash its public image. After years of being hammered by grass-roots environmentalists for everything from deforestation to inhumane farming practices to contributing to a throwaway culture, McDonald's finally relented on something: it did away with its styrofoam clamshell hamburger containers. But before the company did this, it entered into a partnership with the Environmental Defense Fund and gave that group credit for the change. Both sides won in the ensuing PR lovefest. McDonald's took one little step in response to grass-roots activists, and the Environmental Defense Fund claimed a major victory. Another problem is that big green groups have virtually no accountability to the many thousands of individuals who provide them with money. Meanwhile, the grass-roots environmental groups are starved of the hundreds of millions of dollars that are raised every year by these massive bureaucracies. Over the past two decades, they've turned the environmental movement's grass-roots base of support into little more than a list of donors they hustle for money via direct-mail appeals and telemarketing. It's getting even worse, because now corporations are directly funding groups like the Audubon Society, the Wilderness Society, and the National Wildlife Federation. Corporate executives now sit on the boards of some of these groups. PR executive Leslie Dach, for instance, of the rabidly anti-environmental Edelman PR firm, is on the Audubon Society's board of directors. Meanwhile, his PR firm has helped lead the wise use assault on environmental regulation -- WAR ON TRUTH The Secret Battle for the American Mind An Interview with John Stauber http://www.whale.to/m/stauber.html He's right, as usual, but as I said, you can't paint it with such a broad brush, you have to take it case-by-case. but i have been quite impressed with one group as i learn more about them. that would be 'the nature conservancy'. (although, i should point out there was some sort of unsavory business a few years back wherein certain members of their board profited in some way from a particular land set-aside; but i gather they instituted more rigorous auditing/oversight procedures as a result). i bring this up because i wondered, have there been any critiques of this group? I'm glad you like them. I don't know much
Re: Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hallo Keith, Friends, Thursday, 07 July, 2005, 17:19:26, you wrote: ...snip... You will notice that Keith, for instance, seems to offer solutions. KA ... thanks for saying so! Though not always, I can be negative too KA where necessary, but I do try to point to alternatives. More than KA that I'd say I'm trying to provide useful information. This forum and KA these issues are all about empowerment, IMHO, but there's hundreds of KA billions spent every year on PR, advertising and all the other forms KA of message massage to try to prevent exactly that, empowerment. And KA perhaps especially around anything to do with fossil-fuels. Lots of KA blind alleys, much confusion and frustration, and here in the KA Information Age most of the information is just noise and smoke to KA keep you baffled. Good information helps, it's empowering. ...snip... I have only been reading sporadically as I am not yet fully shipshape and Bristol fashion but there is a place for people who recognize the problems and point them out without solutions as long as they are just doing that, pointing the problems out, recognizing them, but not attacking randomly. Sometimes we have a difficult time even recognizing the real root cause of something and we go for treating symptoms rather than curing the disease. It is a matter of how and why it is done, of whether it is to help as one is able or to attack, criticize and defend a partisan position. Makes a world of difference. It's sort of like automobile electrics. It may help to change the bad bulb repeatedly but the problem won't be fixed until you find the short and repair that and then replace the bulb. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
You're welcome. Richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ryan Keith wrote: And there are people who demand to know: What's all this off-topic political crap got to do with BIOFUELS???, which usually turns out to be another way of saying they disagree with it and want it censored. Keith, I for one will put in my 2 cents and say quite honestly that I wouldn't be glued to my computer reading email updates of this list if it weren't for the political discussion. I live in the South Dakota, USA. Most people here are Red state type of people who don't want change as long as there is a conservative in office pretending he/she cares. I love that we can all speak freely, and I especially love that I can read what people from around the world think, especially about America...I agree with most of them. I am also thankful that you post so many articles, I would not be exposed to this information otherwise. This list has changed my world view for the better. Thank you for your hard work, and thank you to all the contributers. Thanks so much for taking the time to say so, it's much appreciated, and you're most welcome. Best wishes Keith Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hello Chris Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes. The only problem with repanting trees, period, that i'm shocked no one has mentioned (unless i missed it), is that the earth in a particular area can only support 4-5 generations of trees before the soil is completely exhausted. Trees take more nutrients out of the soil to grow than just about anything else, and after several generations they will NOT grow any longer. So yeah, replanting after clear cutting is nice and all, but after a few times at the the soil stops growing... anyhting... I don't think there's any basis for this assumption, quite the opposite. Forests can continue indefinitely. Some forests are 30 million years old. What sort of forests are you talking about? Can you provide some references please? And as far as deforestation goes, i'm more worried about places outside developed countries where no one really cares if trees are replanted. A lot of the slash and burn Some, not most. taking place in the rainforest is regular old people who are trying to grow food or make money, clearing land for cattle and farms. Mostly they've been marginalised, or they wouldn't need to do it. It's worth checking what marginalised them, for a clearer picture. They're the most widely blamed, though they're probably the least to blame. In tropical forests most of the nutrients are in the trees, with very little in the soil. Slash-and-burn provides some mineral-rich ash which fertilises the soil for a couple of years, and then, as the fertility levels sink, pioneer weeds invade, their purpose to begin restoring the fertility reserves. These weeds are generally very tough, very hard to fight, like lalang grass in Southeast Asia. The peasants are forced out, and have to slash-and-burn another site, and use it for another couple of years. There are initiatives to stabilise this cycle, several through agroforestry principles. If the leaves and small branches of the trees that are cut down were composted instead of burnt the poor forest soils could be maintained at much higher fertility levels, with no pioneer weeds invading and no need to move on. Those people don't replant trees, Quite often they do plant trees. and they aren't part of a multibnation company with lots of enviromental regulations to uphold. Or ignore. Best Keith _Chris N - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Joe Street To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Hi Hakan; 100% in agreement with all of that. Clearcutting IS bad, I thought I made that distinction. It is also true that clearcutting does not hurt snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hello Richard Nitrogen-fixing trees. Nitrogen, is that part of soil nutrients? Yes, the main one. Allegedly. There's a better case for calcium though. Soil nutrients aren't quite the same as plant nutrients, though they should be - feed the soil, not the plant. The gospel of chemical farming, the NPK mentality, is that all you have to do is replace the chemicals the previous crop removed from the soil, and all it takes is the the six macronutrients, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium, sulphur. Originally just the first three were considered important, N, P, and K. There's also a small but growing concern about the 40-odd micronutrients. Actually the law of the little bit makes the really important nutrient the one that isn't there, whether macro or micro. No need to worry about them if your humus management is good. Nature's humus management is always good, of course. Nitrogen provides itself, via the steady breakdown of soil organic matter, and direct from the inexhaustible supplies in the atmosphere, via the action of free-living nitrogen-fixing soil bacteria such as Azotobacter and the bacteria colonising the root nodules of nitrogen-fixing trees and other legumes. Best wishes Keith http://agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory4.htmlhttp://agroforestr y.net/overstory/overstory4.html mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes. The only problem with repanting trees, period, that i'm shocked no one has mentioned (unless i missed it), is that the earth in a particular area can only support 4-5 generations of trees before the soil is completely exhausted. Trees take more nutrients out of the soil to grow than just about anything else, and after several generations they will NOT grow any longer. So yeah, replanting after clear cutting is nice and all, but after a few times at the the soil stops growing... anyhting... snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
I think I am seeing a pattern here. I have noticed that some folks seem to think that whatever is being done is bad... end of story . not just in this forum, but it seems to be abundant here. I would like to suggest to anyone who witnesses this tendency that they withhold criticism until they feel they can offer a solution. I try to exercise this method with myself, and I suggest it may be helpful to others. You will notice that Keith, for instance, seems to offer solutions. Others can only describe what they feel is wrong with the system. This is not a complete solution to a negative personality, but should go a long way in making life more pleasant for all. I enjoy the constructive criticism and solutions offered here, but am slightly frustrated when folks endlessly tell us that everything in the world is wrong. Wes Hello Chris Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes. The only problem with repanting trees, period, that i'm shocked no one has mentioned (unless i missed it), is that the earth in a particular area can only support 4-5 generations of trees before the soil is completely exhausted. Trees take more nutrients out of the soil to grow than just about anything else, and after several generations they will NOT grow any longer. So yeah, replanting after clear cutting is nice and all, but after a few times at the the soil stops growing... anyhting... I don't think there's any basis for this assumption, quite the opposite. Forests can continue indefinitely. Some forests are 30 million years old. What sort of forests are you talking about? Can you provide some references please? And as far as deforestation goes, i'm more worried about places outside developed countries where no one really cares if trees are replanted. A lot of the slash and burn Some, not most. taking place in the rainforest is regular old people who are trying to grow food or make money, clearing land for cattle and farms. Mostly they've been marginalised, or they wouldn't need to do it. It's worth checking what marginalised them, for a clearer picture. They're the most widely blamed, though they're probably the least to blame. In tropical forests most of the nutrients are in the trees, with very little in the soil. Slash-and-burn provides some mineral-rich ash which fertilises the soil for a couple of years, and then, as the fertility levels sink, pioneer weeds invade, their purpose to begin restoring the fertility reserves. These weeds are generally very tough, very hard to fight, like lalang grass in Southeast Asia. The peasants are forced out, and have to slash-and-burn another site, and use it for another couple of years. There are initiatives to stabilise this cycle, several through agroforestry principles. If the leaves and small branches of the trees that are cut down were composted instead of burnt the poor forest soils could be maintained at much higher fertility levels, with no pioneer weeds invading and no need to move on. Those people don't replant trees, Quite often they do plant trees. and they aren't part of a multibnation company with lots of enviromental regulations to uphold. Or ignore. Best Keith _Chris N - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Joe Street To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Hi Hakan; 100% in agreement with all of that. Clearcutting IS bad, I thought I made that distinction. It is also true that clearcutting does not hurt snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Well done. Thanks Wes. I am often discouraged to the point of being overwhelmed bythe struggle. I'm sure everyone in this forum has felt a wide range of emotions including outrage, guilt, sadness, inadequacy and (sometimes) triumph. Our environment doesn't always facilitate the efforts of those who want to help it (like not having recycling in some areas). On Tuesday, I interviewed with a company who is a vendor for Coca Cola. Almost exactly a week earlier, I learned of the killings of Coca Cola employeesin Colombia as a reaction to their union activities. (IMO) it puts into perspective the difficult choices we have to make to support ourselves and our families. If you are aware of your environment and your environment encompasses everything effectingthe quality of life of your fellow human being, then there is a lot to be upset about and a lot of work to be done. I encourage everyone to embrace the struggle, keep the faith and remember that there is strength in solidarity. MikeWes Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I am seeing a pattern here. I have noticed that some folks seem tothink that whatever is being done is bad... end of story . not just in thisforum, but it seems to be abundant here. I would like to suggest to anyonewho witnesses this tendency that they withhold criticism until they feelthey can offer a solution. I try to exercise this method with myself, and Isuggest it may be helpful to others. You will notice that Keith, forinstance, seems to offer solutions. Others can only describe what they feelis wrong with the system. This is not a complete solution to a negative personality, but should go along way in making life more pleasant for all. I enjoy the constructivecriticism and solutions offered here, but am slightly frustrated when folksendlessly tell us that everything in the world is wrong. Wes Hello Chris Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes.The only problem with repanting trees, period, that i'm shocked no one has mentioned (unless i missed it), is that the earth in a particular area can only support 4-5 generations of trees before the soil is completely exhausted. Trees take more nutrients out of the soil to grow than just about anything else, and after several generations they will NOT grow any longer. So yeah, replanting after clear cutting is nice and all, but after a few times at the the soil stops growing... anyhting...I don't think there's any basis for this assumption, quite the opposite. Forests can continue indefinitely. Some forests are 30 million years old. What sort of forests are you talking about? Can you provide some references please?And as far as deforestation goes, i'm more worried about places outside developed countries where no one really cares if trees are replanted. A lot of the slash and burn Some, not most.taking place in the rainforest is regular old people who are trying to grow food or make money, clearing land for cattle and farms.Mostly they've been marginalised, or they wouldn't need to do it. It's worth checking what marginalised them, for a clearer picture. They're the most widely blamed, though they're probably the least to blame.In tropical forests most of the nutrients are in the trees, with very little in the soil. Slash-and-burn provides some mineral-rich ash which "fertilises" the soil for a couple of years, and then, as the fertility levels sink, pioneer weeds invade, their purpose to begin restoring the fertility reserves. These weeds are generally very tough, very hard to fight, like lalang grass in Southeast Asia. The peasants are forced out, and have to slash-and-burn another site, and use it for another couple of years. There are initiatives to stabilise this cycle, several through agroforestry principles. If the leaves and small branches of the trees that are cut down were composted instead of burnt the poor forest soils could be maintained at much higher fertility levels, with no pioneer weeds invading and no need to move on.Those people don't replant trees,Quite often they do plant trees.and they aren't part of a multibnation company with lots of enviromental regulations to uphold.Or ignore.BestKeith_Chris N- Original Message -From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Joe StreetTo: <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:55 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?Hi Hakan;100% in agreement with all of that. Clearcutting IS bad, I thought Imade that distinction. It is also true that clearcutting does not hurt___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofue
RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
ANSWER: None! My house is over one hundred years old. The orginal trees, if left would have been all killed by bark beetle or worse fire. The land they came from is still forest and has probably been cut several times since the house was built.. The paved road in front of the house has killed a lot of trees. There hasn't been a tree there since the road was paved. The lot on which the house was built was field so the trees that were there were killed for different reason than building the house. Yours truly John Wilson *** Wilsonia Farm Kennel Preserve Goldens Ph-Fax (902)665-2386) Web: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/new.htm Pups: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/pup.htm Politics: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/elect.htm http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/c68.htm In Nova Scotia smoking permitted in designated areas only until 9:00 PM . After 9:00 it is okey to kill everyone. ^ Nova Scotia going smoke-free in public by 2006 (FANTASTIC) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hi: I don't know where Keith got his information about trees depleting soil nutrients after 4 or 5 generations of trees. I suggest that if you check with a silviculturalist, you may find that when trees drop their leaves in the fall, the leaves start to decompose in the next spring. The progression of biological deterioration eventually produces the litter, fermentation and humus layers of vegetative matter on top of the mineral soil. The leaching of nutrients from the L, F and H layers helps to enrich the mineral soil and allows tree growth to continue for all the generations of trees that have grown since the last ice age and glaciers retreated. The process is somewhat similar, no matter whether the trees are deciduous or conifers. The biggest interruption in natural processes is when careless humans start forest wildfires by throwing cigarette butts out of car windows, or forget to see that they have completely drowned a campfire by stirring the wet ashes with their hands. If you can't stand the heat in the wet ashes, the campfire isn't completely out, and the water you use to wash the ashes off your hands should be used to finish putting out the campfire. Please note that a forest wildfire is completely opposite from a prescribed burn set by a professional forester to act as a forest regeneration tool. j. From: Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Well done. Thanks Wes. I am often discouraged to the point of being overwhelmed by the struggle. I'm sure everyone in this forum has felt a wide range of emotions including outrage, guilt, sadness, inadequacy and (sometimes) triumph. Our environment doesn't always facilitate the efforts of those who want to help it (like not having recycling in some areas). On Tuesday, I interviewed with a company who is a vendor for Coca Cola. Almost exactly a week earlier, I learned of the killings of Coca Cola employees in Colombia as a reaction to their union activities. (IMO) it puts into perspective the difficult choices we have to make to support ourselves and our families. If you are aware of your environment and your environment encompasses everything effecting the quality of life of your fellow human being, then there is a lot to be upset about and a lot of work to be done. I encourage everyone to embrace the struggle, keep the faith and remember that there is strength in solidarity. Mike Wes Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I am seeing a pattern here. I have noticed that some folks seem to think that whatever is being done is bad... end of story . not just in this forum, but it seems to be abundant here. I would like to suggest to anyone who witnesses this tendency that they withhold criticism until they feel they can offer a solution. I try to exercise this method with myself, and I suggest it may be helpful to others. You will notice that Keith, for instance, seems to offer solutions. Others can only describe what they feel is wrong with the system. This is not a complete solution to a negative personality, but should go a long way in making life more pleasant for all. I enjoy the constructive criticism and solutions offered here, but am slightly frustrated when folks endlessly tell us that everything in the world is wrong. Wes Hello Chris Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes. The only problem with repanting trees, period, that i'm shocked no one has mentioned (unless i missed it), is that the earth in a particular area can only support 4-5 generations of trees before the soil is completely exhausted. Trees take more nutrients out of the soil to grow than just about anything else, and after several generations they will NOT grow any longer. So yeah, replanting after clear cutting is nice and all, but after a few times at the the soil stops growing... anyhting... I don't think there's any basis for this assumption, quite the opposite. Forests can continue indefinitely. Some forests are 30 million years old. What sort of forests are you talking about? Can you provide some references please? And as far as deforestation goes, i'm more worried about places outside developed countries where no one really cares if trees are replanted. A lot of the slash and burn Some, not most. taking place in the rainforest is regular old people who are trying to grow food or make money, clearing land for cattle and farms. Mostly they've been marginalised, or they wouldn't need to do it. It's worth checking what marginalised them, for a clearer picture. They're the most widely blamed, though they're probably the least to blame. In tropical forests most of the nutrients are in the trees, with very little in the soil. Slash-and-burn provides some mineral-rich ash which fertilises the soil for a couple
john broderick - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
john broderick wrote: Hi: I don't know where Keith got his information about trees depleting soil nutrients after 4 or 5 generations of trees. Aarghhh!!! Do you mind? That was NOT my information, Chris N posted that and I strongly disagreed and countered it. Please be more careful who you attribute things to! :-( Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
That was me, not Keith. I was told by a good friend andwildlife ecologistthat this was true, and assumed it to be as they were very passionate about deforestation and our consumption of paper products. Forgive me if I'm wrong, when I see her again I'll ask her to clarify, I might simply have misunderstood. I think it was also solely targeted at pine forests planned in our area for lumber. the same small plot of land is used over and over again for the exact same types of tress in the same quantity. And I'm not trying to be cynical, if that previous email was directed at me. I always thought "well, can't we just keep replanting the trees" until I was told very sternly be afore-mentioned person that no, its not that simple and doesn't quite work that way. I was just sharing whatI had been told. And Keith, certainly, the people conducting the slash and burn agriculture in the rainforests are the ones least to blame. An economic system was imposed upon them that forced them into this style of supporting themselves and their families. At least that's my understanding. Chris N - Original Message - From: john broderick To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 3:40 PM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Hi:I don't know where Keith got his information about trees depleting soil nutrients after 4 or 5 generations of trees.I suggest that if you check with a silviculturalist, you may find that when trees drop their leaves in the fall, the leaves start to decompose in the next spring. The progression of biological deterioration eventually produces the litter, fermentation and humus layers of vegetative matter on top of the mineral soil. The leaching of nutrients from the L, F and H layers helps to enrich the mineral soil and allows tree growth to continue for all the generations of trees that have grown since the last ice age and glaciers retreated. The process is somewhat similar, no matter whether the trees are deciduous or conifers. The biggest interruption in natural processes is when careless humans start forest wildfires by throwing cigarette butts out of car windows, or forget to see that they have completely drowned a campfire by stirring the wet ashes with their hands. If you can't stand the heat in the wet ashes, the campfire isn't completely out, and the water you use to wash the ashes off your hands should be used to finish putting out the campfire.Please note that a forest wildfire is completely opposite from a prescribed burn set by a professional forester to act as a forest regeneration tool.j.From: Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:08:14 -0700 (PDT)Well done. Thanks Wes.I am often discouraged to the point of being overwhelmed by the struggle. I'm sure everyone in this forum has felt a wide range of emotions including outrage, guilt, sadness, inadequacy and (sometimes) triumph. Our environment doesn't always facilitate the efforts of those who want to help it (like not having recycling in some areas).On Tuesday, I interviewed with a company who is a vendor for Coca Cola. Almost exactly a week earlier, I learned of the killings of Coca Cola employees in Colombia as a reaction to their union activities. (IMO) it puts into perspective the difficult choices we have to make to support ourselves and our families.If you are aware of your environment and your environment encompasses everything effecting the quality of life of your fellow human being, then there is a lot to be upset about and a lot of work to be done.I encourage everyone to embrace the struggle, keep the faith and remember that there is strength in solidarity.MikeWes Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I think I am seeing a pattern here. I have noticed that some folks seem tothink that whatever is being done is bad... end of story . not just in thisforum, but it seems to be abundant here. I would like to suggest to anyonewho witnesses this tendency that they withhold criticism until they feelthey can offer a solution. I try to exercise this method with myself, and Isuggest it may be helpful to others. You will notice that Keith, forinstance, seems to offer solutions. Others can only describe what they feelis wrong with the system.This is not a complete solution to a negative personality, but should go along way in making life more pleasant for all. I enjoy the constructivecriticism and solutions offered here, but am slightly frustrated when folksendlessly tell us that everything in the world is wrong.WesHello Chris Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes. The on
Re: Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Keith wrote: And there are people who demand to know: "What's all this off-topic political crap got to do with BIOFUELS???", which usually turns out to be another way of saying they disagree with it and want it censored. Keith, I for one will put in my 2 cents and say quite honestly that I wouldn't be glued to my computer reading email updates of this list if it weren't for the political discussion. I live in the South Dakota, USA. Most people here are Red state type of people who don't want change as long as there is a conservative in office pretending he/she cares. I love that we can all speak freely, and I especially love that I can read what people from around the world think, especially about America...I agree with most of them. I am also thankful that you post so many articles, I would not be exposed to this information otherwise. This list has changed my world view for the better. Thank you for your hard work, and thank you to all the contributers. Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
hi, keith. i have my own 'issues' with the big enviro groups. but i have been quite impressed with one group as i learn more about them. that would be 'the nature conservancy'. (although, i should point out there was some sort of unsavory business a few years back wherein certain members of their board profited in some way from a particular land set-aside; but i gather they instituted more rigorous auditing/oversight procedures as a result). i bring this up because i wondered, have there been any critiques of this group? -chris b. In a message dated 7/6/05 9:45:21 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We don't hold any brief for the big environment groups and we've said so quite often. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hi Chris; <>Granted a mature forest supports a <>different ecology than a second growth but for instance studies have <>shown that there is more food for bears in a clearcut zone than there is in a mature forest. i don't see the relevance of this. you could make the same argument for garbage dumps. does that mean we should be sending all these huge barges full of waste to the canadian wilderness? who conducted these studies? and who funded them? Well here in Canada there is a very strong movement for the preservation of wildlife habitat and bears are a favorite focus point. The welfare of bears seems to have become a symbol of environmental awareness for some folks, so much so that due to restrictions in hunting regulations we have a situation in northern Ontario where bears are litterally trying to break in to people's houses. There is a misguided notion that clearcutting forests puts the bear population at risk and this is clearly an example of public misinformation which is gladly exploited by those who would like to see all logging in this country put to an end. I admit I don't know about the details of the studies I mentioned but I can get references. I am speaking from experience though. I spend a lot of time roaming around the forests of this country and I have come across bears many times and often enough to have a general sense of the likelihood and frequency of such encounters in a remote forest of Canada be it hardwood, softwood or boreal. Let me tell you walking around in a clearcut in northern B.C. is a different experience where it is routine to see bears EVERY DAY and often several times a day, so much so that it requires a different attitude to being out there. Clearcutting results in a more plentiful food supply for bears so much so that they are beginning to overpopulate which is also not natural and is a problem in itself ( for people AND bears). I used this example not to say that clearcutting is good but rather just to illustrate that there are misconceptions about the lumber industry destroying habitat and threatening the extinction of bears which are pervasive and obviously untrue. I guess I can't blame ecoterrorist mouthpieces like David Suzuki for using the same fear mongering and disinformation tactics to arouse us that the wealthy commonly use to keep us all hypnotized with our faces in the food trough of excess. But I don't have to like it. forest fires have been sending co2 into the atmosphere for millenia, but that isn't what has precipitated global warming. furhtermore, in the case of north america, fire has been one of the primary evolutionary forces. the ecosystem of this continent has a sort of co-dependency with fire; sort of like a purging/renewal mechanism. in fact, there are certain conifers which need the high tempatures of a wildfire for their cones to open and release the seeds. Yes the Jack Pine cone requires heat to release it's seeds and after a fire a similar thing happens to the burnt area due to opening up the forest floor to sunlight as what happens after mature trees are removed although the ground is not torn up and looking like an ugly wound on the earth as a clearcut does. ( If you've never seen one up close you can't imagine how ugly it is). Many scrub plants and berry bushes suddenly shoot up where they couldn't grow before due to lack of light. You are right that fire does beneficial things but my point was that something useful to human life is also lost and we still have the need for it so we will still take it from somewhere else resulting in deforestation in two places. If we were to go in and selectively remove the largest trees which are most likely to get a lightning strike and have the most board feet of lumber we can reduce the loss to fire, keep that CO2 sequestered, and make use of the wood simultaneously. More and more this is becoming an approach the logging industry is taking. It is more costly than clearcutting and hence would result in an increase in luber costs for the consumer which is something I eagerly applaud. I smile when I consider the day when our cost of living will skyrocket in this society. As it should. Having said this I also want to say that I agree we should set asside certain areas like the old growth coastal rain forests with the huge douglas firs and sitka spruce that escaped the last glaciation and are something truely wonderful to behold and spend time in just as we do with other natural wonders. i don't know about this, but i've kind of always assumed that a plant's 'oxygen cycle' and 'co2 cycle' pretty much cancel each other out. but there's no denying that trees sequester large quantities of carbon (breaking down co2 to do so, no?). Yeah if only humans were as smart as plants Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Joe, Only a couple of complementary things, The Elk an Moose also like clear cut, but they are very bad for forest management. They eat the top of the newly planted trees. Clear cuts are also bad, since it often result in that the top soil is washed down the streams and over fertilize them. this in its turn results in greater vulnerability to the acid rains from industrial areas, that kills our lakes. The only reason for clear cut, is the adoption to modern machinery. Proper forest management was developed in Southern Germany around 200 years ago and was implemented in Sweden 150 years ago. It has proven its viability, but clear cut was not a part of the those methods. Why we get a large amount of bushes etc. in clear cuts, is not because of more sunlight, it is because a lack of pines to control the vegetation. The pine tree is releasing chemicals from the needles it drops, that limit the under vegetation and give the pines the space and nutrition to grow. It is their way of fighting the competition and only allow species that are good for them. Fires have always been a natural part of the forest cycle, to keep the ground relatively clean and add nutrients. This is also done in good forest management, which starts to be a thing of the past and had to give way for the use of large machines. All of this and much more, are to be found in the biofuel archives from earlier extensive discussions. No need to repeat it in full. Harvesting properly managed forests for building material, has been proven viable for more than 150 years. We are also killing plants for food like bread etc. and the way the subject provoke is misleading and ignorant. We even kill animals to eat, but the real abuse is not that we kill them, it is often worse with the way we let them live. Hakan At 04:15 PM 7/6/2005, you wrote: Hi Chris; Granted a mature forest supports a different ecology than a second growth but for instance studies have shown that there is more food for bears in a clearcut zone than there is in a mature forest. i don't see the relevance of this. you could make the same argument for garbage dumps. does that mean we should be sending all these huge barges full of waste to the canadian wilderness? who conducted these studies? and who funded them? Well here in Canada there is a very strong movement for the preservation of wildlife habitat and bears are a favorite focus point. The welfare of bears seems to have become a symbol of environmental awareness for some folks, so much so that due to restrictions in hunting regulations we have a situation in northern Ontario where bears are litterally trying to break in to people's houses. There is a misguided notion that clearcutting forests puts the bear population at risk and this is clearly an example of public misinformation which is gladly exploited by those who would like to see all logging in this country put to an end. I admit I don't know about the details of the studies I mentioned but I can get references. I am speaking from experience though. I spend a lot of time roaming around the forests of this country and I have come across bears many times and often enough to have a general sense of the likelihood and frequency of such encounters in a remote forest of Canada be it hardwood, softwood or boreal. Let me tell you walking around in a clearcut in northern B.C. is a different experience where it is routine to see bears EVERY DAY and often several times a day, so much so that it requires a different attitude to being out there. Clearcutting results in a more plentiful food supply for bears so much so that they are beginning to overpopulate which is also not natural and is a problem in itself ( for people AND bears). I used this example not to say that clearcutting is good but rather just to illustrate that there are misconceptions about the lumber industry destroying habitat and threatening the extinction of bears which are pervasive and obviously untrue. I guess I can't blame ecoterrorist mouthpieces like David Suzuki for using the same fear mongering and disinformation tactics to arouse us that the wealthy commonly use to keep us all hypnotized with our faces in the food trough of excess. But I don't have to like it. forest fires have been sending co2 into the atmosphere for millenia, but that isn't what has precipitated global warming. furhtermore, in the case of north america, fire has been one of the primary evolutionary forces. the ecosystem of this continent has a sort of co-dependency with fire; sort of like a purging/renewal mechanism. in fact, there are certain conifers which need the high tempatures of a wildfire for their cones to open and release the seeds. Yes the Jack Pine cone requires heat to release it's seeds and after a fire a similar thing happens to the burnt area due to opening up the forest floor to sunlight as what happens after mature trees are removed although
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hi Hakan Joe, Only a couple of complementary things, The Elk an Moose also like clear cut, but they are very bad for forest management. They eat the top of the newly planted trees. Clear cuts are also bad, since it often result in that the top soil is washed down the streams and over fertilize them. this in its turn results in greater vulnerability to the acid rains from industrial areas, that kills our lakes. The only reason for clear cut, is the adoption to modern machinery. Proper forest management was developed in Southern Germany around 200 years ago and was implemented in Sweden 150 years ago. Round the same time in Britain I think. In most of Europe in various forms, I suppose. Anyway, sustainable forest management, very productive, good for the local economy. It has proven its viability, but clear cut was not a part of the those methods. Why we get a large amount of bushes etc. in clear cuts, is not because of more sunlight, it is because a lack of pines to control the vegetation. The pine tree is releasing chemicals from the needles it drops, that limit the under vegetation and give the pines the space and nutrition to grow. It is their way of fighting the competition and only allow species that are good for them. Fires have always been a natural part of the forest cycle, to keep the ground relatively clean and add nutrients. This is also done in good forest management, which starts to be a thing of the past and had to give way for the use of large machines. All of this and much more, are to be found in the biofuel archives from earlier extensive discussions. No need to repeat it in full. Harvesting properly managed forests for building material, has been proven viable for more than 150 years. We are also killing plants for food like bread etc. and the way the subject provoke is misleading and ignorant. We even kill animals to eat, but the real abuse is not that we kill them, it is often worse with the way we let them live. Yes... But also with how we kill them (see below). And how we feed them, and how we deal with the wastes. Or at least with how the agribusiness corporations do it. Best wishes Keith THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER July 5,, 2005, Issue #412 Monitoring Corporate Agribusiness From a Public Interest Perspective Exclusive: Best Chicken Killer In Arkansas Tells Of Tyson Foods' Inhumane Slaughter Of Poultry And Coverup VIRGIL BUTLER Special to THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER July 29, 2005 I worked in Tyson Foods slaughter plants for over ten years, much of that time spent in the killing room. I was employee of the month on four different occasions and, for the last three years, trained the new killers. I was once even told by the plant manager that I was the best killer in Arkansas. I have obtained a copy of the PETA tape [See Reprint of PETA story --- Issue #408 --- below] and watched it over and over again, analyzing what exactly was captured on it. I even watched it in slow motion. It takes a trained eye to catch these things, and I certainly have one. There is no doubt at all in my mind that Tyson is the one at fault here, as their killing machine was acting up and severely mutilating those birds. At one point on the tape, the supervisor even admits this. I saw this same problem many nights that I worked for Tyson through the years, so I find that the investigator and the tape to be entirely credible and that Tyson is simply lying to cover their own selves. The way they are attacking the investigator is the same way they attacked me when I brought a bright spotlight into the dark corners of what goes on behind the scenes of those houses of horror and outright torture, coming forward and swearing out a formal statement. They can't refute the message, as they know it to be true, so they attack the messenger. It is an old tactic and the only one to resort to when you are caught the way they have been. They even support Consumer Freedom, who freely admits the use of such tactics. It was not uncommon at all for me to spend two to three weeks training a new-hire to kill. I find the fact that they put an untrained person in there to do that job without any training to be a serious concern and a very bad judgment call. There's no doubt in my mind that the investigator probably missed many more chickens than even he realized and that were subsequently scalded alive. If you listen to the tape closely, you can even hear the baby chicks (because, let's face it --- that's what they are, no matter how the industry has manipulated them to gain the size they are at slaughter) peeping as they are lowered into the scalding tanks. It's not just the uncut birds that you have to watch for. It takes a trained eye to watch for the miscuts. Those are the ones that are the hardest to spot. In order for the chicken to bleed to death before she hits the scalding tank, both the carotid arteries and the jugular vein must be severed
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hello Joe, Chris Hi Chris; Granted a mature forest supports a different ecology than a second growth but for instance studies have shown that there is more food for bears in a clearcut zone than there is in a mature forest. i don't see the relevance of this. you could make the same argument for garbage dumps. does that mean we should be sending all these huge barges full of waste to the canadian wilderness? who conducted these studies? and who funded them? Well here in Canada there is a very strong movement for the preservation of wildlife habitat and bears are a favorite focus point. The welfare of bears seems to have become a symbol of environmental awareness for some folks, so much so that due to restrictions in hunting regulations we have a situation in northern Ontario where bears are litterally trying to break in to people's houses. There is a misguided notion that clearcutting forests puts the bear population at risk and this is clearly an example of public misinformation which is gladly exploited by those who would like to see all logging in this country put to an end. I admit I don't know about the details of the studies I mentioned but I can get references. I am speaking from experience though. I spend a lot of time roaming around the forests of this country and I have come across bears many times and often enough to have a general sense of the likelihood and frequency of such encounters in a remote forest of Canada be it hardwood, softwood or boreal. Let me tell you walking around in a clearcut in northern B.C. is a different experience where it is routine to see bears EVERY DAY and often several times a day, so much so that it requires a different attitude to being out there. Clearcutting results in a more plentiful food supply for bears so much so that they are beginning to overpopulate which is also not natural and is a problem in itself ( for people AND bears). I used this example not to say that clearcutting is good but rather just to illustrate that there are misconceptions about the lumber industry destroying habitat and threatening the extinction of bears which are pervasive and obviously untrue. Yet you provide an example of clearcutting leading to the overpopulation of bears. Both the clearcutting and the overpopulation are a distortion of the local eco-system, which has more to it than just trees and bears. Are you sure it's benefitting the bears? Overpopulation isn't a healthy sign, it can be a poison chalice. What's the next step for them? Deer populations have stopped breeding when that's happened to them, until the population stabilised at a lower level. It saved them from inevitable decline, as the weaker specimens were surviving to breeding age instead of succumbing. You'd need to give a much clearer picture of the state of the local ecology in the clearcuts in comparison with the rest of the forest for this example to establish that clearcutting isn't always bad. itself ( for people AND bears). I used this example not to say that clearcutting is good but rather just to illustrate that there are misconceptions about the lumber industry destroying habitat and threatening the extinction of bears which are pervasive and obviously untrue. There are misconceptions on both sides of the issue, as long discussions here previously have shown. I guess I can't blame ecoterrorist mouthpieces like David Suzuki for using the same fear mongering and disinformation tactics to arouse us that the wealthy commonly use to keep us all hypnotized with our faces in the food trough of excess. But I don't have to like it. Damning people with labellings such as ecoterrorist mouthpieces like David Suzuki is the same technique that the fear-mongers and disinformationists of the wealthy use (or of the powerful, more accurately). We don't hold any brief for the big environment groups and we've said so quite often. Too often they've become the mirror-image of what they claim to be fighting, while the resources they can bring to bear on fund-raising and publicity mean the lion's share of the public support gets vacuumed up to them and away from the real grass-roots local groups, who usually know more about the all-important and ever-varying local situation and are generally more effective and less knee-jerk as a result. But neither does it make any sense to paint either side with too broad a brush. Even big Environment Inc. groups, even when they take funding from the corporations, also do worthwhile work. As on occasion the corporate side proves capable of sensible lumbering (though the local company does it much better). Labellings don't help. forest fires have been sending co2 into the atmosphere for millenia, but that isn't what has precipitated global warming. furhtermore, in the case of north america, fire has been one of the primary evolutionary forces. the ecosystem of this continent has a sort
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hi Hakan; 100% in agreement with all of that. Clearcutting IS bad, I thought I made that distinction. It is also true that clearcutting does not hurt bears or elk. Selective cutting and even the use of helicopters to remove the odd massive tree are being used which is normally cost prohibitive. But then again I guess my attitude is that basing everything on dollar cost is not the right attitude for how to live in this world. I bet lumber is more expensive in areas where selective logging is being carried out as the norm. But that is a good thing and makes people less wasteful when it impacts thier pocket book. WRT your comments r.e. the treatment of animals yes and factory farming techniques are easy to ignore when your meat is only seen as a nicely packaged 'commodity' on the store shelf rather than the reality of inhumane treatment animals experience in thier short lives at our hands. We just don't look carefully enough at what we are doing and we are encouraged not to. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Only a couple of complementary things, The Elk an Moose also like clear cut, but they are very bad for forest management. They eat the top of the newly planted trees. Clear cuts are also bad, since it often result in that the top soil is washed down the streams and over fertilize them. this in its turn results in greater vulnerability to the acid rains from industrial areas, that kills our lakes. The only reason for clear cut, is the adoption to modern machinery. Proper forest management was developed in Southern Germany around 200 years ago and was implemented in Sweden 150 years ago. It has proven its viability, but clear cut was not a part of the those methods. Why we get a large amount of bushes etc. in clear cuts, is not because of more sunlight, it is because a lack of pines to control the vegetation. The pine tree is releasing chemicals from the needles it drops, that limit the under vegetation and give the pines the space and nutrition to grow. It is their way of fighting the competition and only allow species that are good for them. Fires have always been a natural part of the forest cycle, to keep the ground relatively clean and add nutrients. This is also done in good forest management, which starts to be a thing of the past and had to give way for the use of large machines. All of this and much more, are to be found in the biofuel archives from earlier extensive discussions. No need to repeat it in full. Harvesting properly managed forests for building material, has been proven viable for more than 150 years. We are also killing plants for food like bread etc. and the way the subject provoke is misleading and ignorant. We even kill animals to eat, but the real abuse is not that we kill them, it is often worse with the way we let them live. Hakan At 04:15 PM 7/6/2005, you wrote: Hi Chris; Granted a mature forest supports a different ecology than a second growth but for instance studies have shown that there is more food for bears in a clearcut zone than there is in a mature forest. i don't see the relevance of this. you could make the same argument for garbage dumps. does that mean we should be sending all these huge barges full of waste to the canadian wilderness? who conducted these studies? and who funded them? Well here in Canada there is a very strong movement for the preservation of wildlife habitat and bears are a favorite focus point. The welfare of bears seems to have become a symbol of environmental awareness for some folks, so much so that due to restrictions in hunting regulations we have a situation in northern Ontario where bears are litterally trying to break in to people's houses. There is a misguided notion that clearcutting forests puts the bear population at risk and this is clearly an example of public misinformation which is gladly exploited by those who would like to see all logging in this country put to an end. I admit I don't know about the details of the studies I mentioned but I can get references. I am speaking from experience though. I spend a lot of time roaming around the forests of this country and I have come across bears many times and often enough to have a general sense of the likelihood and frequency of such encounters in a remote forest of Canada be it hardwood, softwood or boreal. Let me tell you walking around in a clearcut in northern B.C. is a different experience where it is routine to see bears EVERY DAY and often several times a day, so much so that it requires a different attitude to being out there. Clearcutting results in a more plentiful food supply for bears so much so that they are beginning to overpopulate which is also not natural and is a problem in itself ( for people AND bears). I used this example not to say that clearcutting is good but rather just to illustrate that there are misconceptions about the lumber industry destroying habitat and
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Thanks for the info and the links, Keith. I have been looking for the right word to do web searches with. Agroforestry. Since web searches are word-based, it is important to use the right word to find the right info. Richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Rich I think that trees are a (renewable) resource that should be harvested. Yes, but how? Good ways and bad ways... there are some interesting discussions (and arguments) about this in the list archives. Otherwise, trees, like other resources, will get depleted, no matter the quantity of trees. The more there is of the resource, the more time it takes to deplete it and the more the hurt after it is gone. I ordered this fascinating book Les Methodes Jean Pain ou Un Autre Jardin (The Jean Pain Methods or Another Garden) from www.jean-pain.com (in French) that does just that. It can be ordered using Paypal, among other payment methods. Tree harvesting. removing dead branches, shred them and compost them. Removing dead branches has the added benefit of reducing wild fire risk. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#pain Biofuels Library - Journey to Forever Jean Pain: France's King of Green Gold http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#treecrops Small Farms Library - Journey to Forever Tree Crops: A Permanent Agriculture by J. Russell Smith The Overstory, Agroforestry Net, Inc. http://www.overstory.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hard to say where the truth is in all of this debate regarding cutting trees. In Canada forest is one of our largest natural .ahemresources. Currently more forest area is lost to natural causes than logging. Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes. The ecological impact is not a clear cut issue (pardon the pun). Granted a mature forest supports a different ecology than a second growth but for instance studies have shown that there is more food for bears in a clearcut zone than there is in a mature forest. I can vouch for this and the proof is in the sheer number of bears I have seen in clearcut areas in the province of British Columbia vs old growth areas. Clear cutting is still bad for what it does to soil retention on slopes but consider that a mature forest WILL burn eventually one hot dry summer during an electrical storm and all the lumber will have gone to waste and a lot of CO2 and particulate would have gone into the air. I have also been told that trees contibute relatively little oxygen to our atmosphere compared to the majority which comes from algae in the sea. Is this true? I've not verified it. Surely in a place like Canada using lumber makes sense from the perspective of localization vs globalization. Steel mills and recycling foundaries are few and far apart and require energy and transportation over long distances. The lumber industry uses heavy equipment for sure but there are thousands of saw mills that can process lumber right where it is cut and it can be used there as well. Lumber will not disappear any time soon as a building material. If logging was banned here construction companies would look for imported lumber possibly imported from regions where lack of environmental standards and logging practices are much more damaging to the earth. What is really needed is to put the brakes on the pervasive need for expansion that our capitalist system requires in order to sustain itself. I don't know what can replace it but I have a feeling we are going to find out in the next decade or so. We'll replace it. There may still be two superpowers on the planet: the United States and world public opinion. - The New York Times http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030414s=schell The Other Superpower | Jonathan Schell Best wishes Keith Joe Chris wrote: Todd, of course you are correct that energy is used to recycle steel. However, no more land is strip mined, and no new land is disturbed to bury the old broken washing machine that got melted down. Were the electricity generated in a sustainable way, it would be all good. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? Something that requires a boatload of fossil fuels to smelt, sheet and press. Nice thing about renewables. They're renewable. And to a very large they do it in a carbon neutral way without much interference from humans. Todd Swearingen. Josephine Wee wrote: To Nancy Canning: We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? thanks. - Original Message - *From:* Nancy Canning mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes. The only problem with repanting trees, period, that i'm shocked no one has mentioned (unless i missed it), is that the earth in a particular area can only support 4-5 generations of trees before the soil is completely exhausted. Trees take more nutrients out of the soil to grow than just about anything else, and after several generations they will NOT grow any longer. So yeah, replanting after clear cutting is nice and all, but after a few times at the the soil stops growing... anyhting... And as far as deforestation goes, i'm more worried about places outside developed countries where no one really cares if trees are replanted. A lot of the slash and burntaking place in therainforest is regular old people who are trying to grow food or make money, clearing land for cattle andfarms. Those people don't replant trees, and they aren't part of a multibnation company with lots of enviromental regulations to uphold. _Chris N - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Hi Hakan;100% in agreement with all of that. Clearcutting IS bad, I thought I made that distinction. It is also true that clearcutting does not hurt bears or elk. Selective cutting and even the use of helicopters to remove the odd massive tree are being used which is normally cost prohibitive. But then again I guess my attitude is that basing everything on dollar cost is not the right attitude for how to live in this world. I bet lumber is more expensive in areas where selective logging is being carried out as the norm. But that is a good thing and makes people less wasteful when it impacts thier pocket book.WRT your comments r.e. the treatment of animals yes and factory farming techniques are easy to ignore when your meat is only seen as a nicely packaged 'commodity' on the store shelf rather than the reality of inhumane treatment animals experience in thier short lives at our hands. We just don't look carefully enough at what we are doing and we are encouraged not to. JoeHakan Falk wrote: Joe, Only a couple of complementary things, The Elk an Moose also like clear cut, but they are very bad for forest management. They eat the top of the newly planted trees. Clear cuts are also bad, since it often result in that the top soil is washed down the streams and over fertilize them. this in its turn results in greater vulnerability to the acid rains from industrial areas, that kills our lakes. The only reason for clear cut, is the adoption to modern machinery. Proper forest management was developed in Southern Germany around 200 years ago and was implemented in Sweden 150 years ago. It has proven its viability, but clear cut was not a part of the those methods. Why we get a large amount of bushes etc. in clear cuts, is not because of more sunlight, it is because a lack of pines to control the vegetation. The pine tree is releasing chemicals from the needles it drops, that limit the under vegetation and give the pines the space and nutrition to grow. It is their way of fighting the competition and only allow species that are good for them. Fires have always been a natural part of the forest cycle, to keep the ground relatively clean and add nutrients. This is also done in good forest management, which starts to be a thing of the past and had to give way for the use of large machines. All of this and much more, are to be found in the biofuel archives from earlier extensive discussions. No need to repeat it in full. Harvesting properly managed forests for building material, has been proven viable for more than 150 years. We are also "killing" plants for food like bread etc. and the way the subject provoke is misleading and ignorant. We even "kill" animals to eat, but the real abuse is not that we kill them, it is often worse with the way we let them live. Hakan At 04:15 PM 7/6/2005, you wrote: Hi Chris; Granted a mature forest supports a different ecology than a second growth but for instance studies have shown that there is more food for bears in a clearcut zone than there is in a mature forest. i don't see the relevance of this. you could make the same argument for garbage dumps. does that mean we should be sending all these huge barges full of waste to the canadian wilderness? who conducted these studies? and who funded them? Well here in Canada there is a very strong movement for the preservation of wildlife habitat and bears are a favorite focus point. The welfare of bears seems to have become a symbol of environmental awareness for some folks, so much so that due to res
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Chris, I am not sure of what you say, nor what background you have to say it. . The traditional and correct forest management is based on continuos cleaning and selective harvesting. The only base for an agricultural type of replanting and harvesting is the clear cutting, which only been practised for around 50 years. The cycle is 20 to 30 years for clear cutting and replanting. 4-5 generations is then a period of over 100 years. This means that we still have around 50 years more, to see if your statement is valid for trees. We know that this is about true for normal farming with yearly planting and harvesting, for some species it can be 2-3 times a year. For trees, it is more complicated than this. I do not see any natural cycle that supports your statement. The natural life time for pine trees are hundreds of years. Hakan At 08:28 PM 7/6/2005, you wrote: Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes. The only problem with repanting trees, period, that i'm shocked no one has mentioned (unless i missed it), is that the earth in a particular area can only support 4-5 generations of trees before the soil is completely exhausted. Trees take more nutrients out of the soil to grow than just about anything else, and after several generations they will NOT grow any longer. So yeah, replanting after clear cutting is nice and all, but after a few times at the the soil stops growing... anyhting... And as far as deforestation goes, i'm more worried about places outside developed countries where no one really cares if trees are replanted. A lot of the slash and burn taking place in the rainforest is regular old people who are trying to grow food or make money, clearing land for cattle and farms. Those people don't replant trees, and they aren't part of a multibnation company with lots of enviromental regulations to uphold. _Chris N - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Joe Street To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Hi Hakan; 100% in agreement with all of that. Clearcutting IS bad, I thought I made that distinction. It is also true that clearcutting does not hurt bears or elk. Selective cutting and even the use of helicopters to remove the odd massive tree are being used which is normally cost prohibitive. But then again I guess my attitude is that basing everything on dollar cost is not the right attitude for how to live in this world. I bet lumber is more expensive in areas where selective logging is being carried out as the norm. But that is a good thing and makes people less wasteful when it impacts thier pocket book. WRT your comments r.e. the treatment of animals yes and factory farming techniques are easy to ignore when your meat is only seen as a nicely packaged 'commodity' on the store shelf rather than the reality of inhumane treatment animals experience in thier short lives at our hands. We just don't look carefully enough at what we are doing and we are encouraged not to. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Only a couple of complementary things, The Elk an Moose also like clear cut, but they are very bad for forest management. They eat the top of the newly planted trees. Clear cuts are also bad, since it often result in that the top soil is washed down the streams and over fertilize them. this in its turn results in greater vulnerability to the acid rains from industrial areas, that kills our lakes. The only reason for clear cut, is the adoption to modern machinery. Proper forest management was developed in Southern Germany around 200 years ago and was implemented in Sweden 150 years ago. It has proven its viability, but clear cut was not a part of the those methods. Why we get a large amount of bushes etc. in clear cuts, is not because of more sunlight, it is because a lack of pines to control the vegetation. The pine tree is releasing chemicals from the needles it drops, that limit the under vegetation and give the pines the space and nutrition to grow. It is their way of fighting the competition and only allow species that are good for them. Fires have always been a natural part of the forest cycle, to keep the ground relatively clean and add nutrients. This is also done in good forest management, which starts to be a thing of the past and had to give way for the use of large machines. All of this and much more, are to be found in the biofuel archives from earlier extensive discussions. No need to repeat it in full. Harvesting properly managed forests for building material, has been proven viable for more than 150 years. We are also killing plants for food like bread etc. and the way the subject provoke is misleading and ignorant. We even kill animals to eat, but the real abuse is not that we kill them, it is often worse with the way we
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Nitrogen-fixing trees. Nitrogen, is that part of soil nutrients? http://agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory4.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes. The only problem with repanting trees, period, that i'm shocked no one has mentioned (unless i missed it), is that the earth in a particular area can only support 4-5 generations of trees before the soil is completely exhausted. Trees take more nutrients out of the soil to grow than just about anything else, and after several generations they will NOT grow any longer. So yeah, replanting after clear cutting is nice and all, but after a few times at the the soil stops growing... anyhting... And as far as deforestation goes, i'm more worried about places outside developed countries where no one really cares if trees are replanted. A lot of the slash and burntaking place in therainforest is regular old people who are trying to grow food or make money, clearing land for cattle andfarms. Those people don't replant trees, and they aren't part of a multibnation company with lots of enviromental regulations to uphold. _Chris N - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Hi Hakan; 100% in agreement with all of that. Clearcutting IS bad, I thought I made that distinction. It is also true that clearcutting does not hurt bears or elk. Selective cutting and even the use of helicopters to remove the odd massive tree are being used which is normally cost prohibitive. But then again I guess my attitude is that basing everything on dollar cost is not the right attitude for how to live in this world. I bet lumber is more expensive in areas where selective logging is being carried out as the norm. But that is a good thing and makes people less wasteful when it impacts thier pocket book. WRT your comments r.e. the treatment of animals yes and factory farming techniques are easy to ignore when your meat is only seen as a nicely packaged 'commodity' on the store shelf rather than the reality of inhumane treatment animals experience in thier short lives at our hands. We just don't look carefully enough at what we are doing and we are encouraged not to. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Only a couple of complementary things, The Elk an Moose also like clear cut, but they are very bad for forest management. They eat the top of the newly planted trees. Clear cuts are also bad, since it often result in that the top soil is washed down the streams and over fertilize them. this in its turn results in greater vulnerability to the acid rains from industrial areas, that kills our lakes. The only reason for clear cut, is the adoption to modern machinery. Proper forest management was developed in Southern Germany around 200 years ago and was implemented in Sweden 150 years ago. It has proven its viability, but clear cut was not a part of the those methods. Why we get a large amount of bushes etc. in clear cuts, is not because of more sunlight, it is because a lack of pines to control the vegetation. The pine tree is releasing chemicals from the needles it drops, that limit the under vegetation and give the pines the space and nutrition to grow. It is their way of fighting the competition and only allow species that are good for them. Fires have always been a natural part of the forest cycle, to keep the ground relatively clean and add nutrients. This is also done in good forest management, which starts to be a thing of the past and had to give way for the use of large machines. All of this and much more, are to be found in the biofuel archives from earlier extensive discussions. No need to repeat it in full. Harvesting properly managed forests for building material, has been proven viable for more than 150 years. We are also "killing" plants for food like bread etc. and the way the subject provoke is misleading and ignorant. We even "kill" animals to eat, but the real abuse is not that we kill them, it is often worse with the way we let them live. Hakan At 04:15 PM 7/6/2005, you wrote: Hi Chris; Granted a mature forest supports a different ecology than a second growth but for instance studies have shown that there is more food for bears in a clearcut zone than there is in a mature forest. i don't see the relevance of this. you could make the same argument for garbage dumps. does that mean we should be sending all these huge barges full of waste to the canadian wilderness? who conducted these studies? and who funded them? Well here in Canada there is a very strong movement for the preservation of wildlife habitat and bears are a favorite focus point.
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
CSH Can spec it to resist up to 320 mph winds, maybe more if you have the funds to do it, but that is the highest number I have heard so far. http://customsuperhomes.com/video.wmvMyk Hill--- On Mon 07/04, Nancy Canning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:From: Nancy Canning [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgDate: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:44:32 -0500Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? What about cast earth, and how would it compare to flyash concrete construction? - Original Message - From: Randall To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 5:38 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?Try these links: http://www.papercrete.com/ http://www.rammedearthworks.com/ http://www.deatech.com/cobcottage/ http://www.adobebuilder.com/ http://www.earthship.org/ http://www.touchtheearthranch.com/tirestart.htm --RandyCharlotte, NC - Original Message - From: Josephine Wee To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 3:13 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?Ms. Nancy Canning We are interested in how one builds a house with recycled tires, dirt and stucco. where can I find a website showing this? thanks. - Original Message - From: Nancy Canning To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:51 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?what about recycled tires. filled with dirt, then covered with stucco. Makes a mighty good building and is being used all over the southwest. - Original Message - From: Chris To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 8:35 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?I just built a utility building using the recycled steel structure by Panasteel, and I didn't have to join a get-rich-quick scheme to do it. Chris KCayce, SC - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:04 PMSubject: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Have you ever wondered how many trees were killed to build your home ? Go to this link an see how many and what you can do to change that whether it be a garage or a stadium ?http://customsuperhomes.com/mykI would like to make that change for America, after viewing the information signup to send me your information so we can build it together,Myk HillEnvironmental Builder Professionalhttp://customsuperhomes.com/mykPh Fx: 206-600-5632PO Box 291Morrisville, NC 27560 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Todd, of course you are correct that energy is used to recycle steel. However, no more land is strip mined, and no new land is disturbed to bury the old broken washing machine that got melted down. Were the electricity generated in a sustainable way, it would be all good. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? Something that requires a boatload of fossil fuels to smelt, sheet and press. Nice thing about renewables. They're renewable. And to a very large they do it in a carbon neutral way without much interference from humans. Todd Swearingen. Josephine Wee wrote: To Nancy Canning: We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? thanks. - Original Message - *From:* Nancy Canning mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:51 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? what about recycled tires. filled with dirt, then covered with stucco. Makes a mighty good building and is being used all over the southwest. - Original Message - *From:* Chris mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, July 02, 2005 8:35 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? I just built a utility building using the recycled steel structure by Panasteel, and I didn't have to join a get-rich-quick scheme to do it. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:04 PM *Subject:* [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Have you ever wondered how many trees were killed to build your home ? Go to this link an see how many and what you can do to change that whether it be a garage or a stadium ? http://customsuperhomes.com/myk I would like to make that change for America, after viewing the information signup to send me your information so we can build it together, Myk Hill Environmental Builder Professional http://customsuperhomes.com/myk Ph Fx: 206-600-5632 PO Box 291 Morrisville, NC 27560 http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSief010 http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSief010 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hard to say where the truth is in all of this debate regarding cutting trees. In Canada forest is one of our largest natural .ahemresources. Currently more forest area is lost to natural causes than logging. Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes. The ecological impact is not a clear cut issue (pardon the pun). Granted a mature forest supports a different ecology than a second growth but for instance studies have shown that there is more food for bears in a clearcut zone than there is in a mature forest. I can vouch for this and the proof is in the sheer number of bears I have seen in clearcut areas in the province of British Columbia vs old growth areas. Clear cutting is still bad for what it does to soil retention on slopes but consider that a mature forest WILL burn eventually one hot dry summer during an electrical storm and all the lumber will have gone to waste and a lot of CO2 and particulate would have gone into the air. I have also been told that trees contibute relatively little oxygen to our atmosphere compared to the majority which comes from algae in the sea. Is this true? I've not verified it. Surely in a place like Canada using lumber makes sense from the perspective of localization vs globalization. Steel mills and recycling foundaries are few and far apart and require energy and transportation over long distances. The lumber industry uses heavy equipment for sure but there are thousands of saw mills that can process lumber right where it is cut and it can be used there as well. Lumber will not disappear any time soon as a building material. If logging was banned here construction companies would look for imported lumber possibly imported from regions where lack of environmental standards and logging practices are much more damaging to the earth. What is really needed is to put the brakes on the pervasive need for expansion that our capitalist system requires in order to sustain itself. I don't know what can replace it but I have a feeling we are going to find out in the next decade or so. Joe Chris wrote: Todd, of course you are correct that energy is used to recycle steel. However, no more land is strip mined, and no new land is disturbed to bury the old broken washing machine that got melted down. Were the electricity generated in a sustainable way, it would be all good. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? Something that requires a boatload of fossil fuels to smelt, sheet and press. Nice thing about renewables. They're renewable. And to a very large they do it in a carbon neutral way without much interference from humans. Todd Swearingen. Josephine Wee wrote: To Nancy Canning: We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? thanks. - Original Message - *From:* Nancy Canning mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:51 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? what about recycled tires. filled with dirt, then covered with stucco. Makes a mighty good building and is being used all over the southwest. - Original Message - *From:* Chris mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, July 02, 2005 8:35 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? I just built a utility building using the recycled steel structure by Panasteel, and I didn't have to join a get-rich-quick scheme to do it. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:04 PM *Subject:* [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Have you ever wondered how many trees were killed to build your home ? Go to this link an see how many and what you can do to change that whether it be a garage or a stadium ? http://customsuperhomes.com/myk I would like to make that change for America, after viewing the information signup to send me your information so we can build it together, Myk Hill Environmental Builder Professional
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
I think that trees are a (renewable) resource that should be harvested. Otherwise, trees, like other resources, will get depleted, no matter the quantity of trees. The more there is of the resource, the more time it takes to deplete it and the more the hurt after it is gone. I ordered this fascinating book Les Methodes Jean Pain ou Un Autre Jardin (The Jean Pain Methods or Another Garden) from www.jean-pain.com (in French) that does just that. It can be ordered using Paypal, among other payment methods. Tree harvesting. removing dead branches, shred them and compost them. Removing dead branches has the added benefit of reducing wild fire risk. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hard to say where the truth is in all of this debate regarding cutting trees. In Canada forest is one of our largest natural .ahemresources. Currently more forest area is lost to natural causes than logging. Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes. The ecological impact is not a clear cut issue (pardon the pun). Granted a mature forest supports a different ecology than a second growth but for instance studies have shown that there is more food for bears in a clearcut zone than there is in a mature forest. I can vouch for this and the proof is in the sheer number of bears I have seen in clearcut areas in the province of British Columbia vs old growth areas. Clear cutting is still bad for what it does to soil retention on slopes but consider that a mature forest WILL burn eventually one hot dry summer during an electrical storm and all the lumber will have gone to waste and a lot of CO2 and particulate would have gone into the air. I have also been told that trees contibute relatively little oxygen to our atmosphere compared to the majority which comes from algae in the sea. Is this true? I've not verified it. Surely in a place like Canada using lumber makes sense from the perspective of localization vs globalization. Steel mills and recycling foundaries are few and far apart and require energy and transportation over long distances. The lumber industry uses heavy equipment for sure but there are thousands of saw mills that can process lumber right where it is cut and it can be used there as well. Lumber will not disappear any time soon as a building material. If logging was banned here construction companies would look for imported lumber possibly imported from regions where lack of environmental standards and logging practices are much more damaging to the earth. What is really needed is to put the brakes on the pervasive need for expansion that our capitalist system requires in order to sustain itself. I don't know what can replace it but I have a feeling we are going to find out in the next decade or so. Joe Chris wrote: Todd, of course you are correct that energy is used to recycle steel. However, no more land is strip mined, and no new land is disturbed to bury the old broken washing machine that got melted down. Were the electricity generated in a sustainable way, it would be all good. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? Something that requires a boatload of fossil fuels to smelt, sheet and press. Nice thing about renewables. They're renewable. And to a very large they do it in a carbon neutral way without much interference from humans. Todd Swearingen. Josephine Wee wrote: To Nancy Canning: We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? thanks. - Original Message - *From:* Nancy Canning mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:51 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? what about recycled tires. filled with dirt, then covered with stucco. Makes a mighty good building and is being used all over the southwest. - Original Message - *From:* Chris mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, July 02, 2005 8:35 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? I just built a utility building using the recycled steel structure by Panasteel, and I didn't have to join a get-rich-quick scheme to do it. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
U Chris, that's not quite correct. New steel is generally added to recycled steel to maintain structural integrity. Otherwise it begins to get to tinny. Not only do more mining energies go into the new fraction, but fossil fuels are still consumed in refining. This means more mining of coal - inclusive of strip mining - and production of coke. Essentially, even recycled steel products are entirely carbon negative. Less energy than virgin steel, but entirely carbon negative. That negative is considerably less when incorporating renewable building products, whether it be straw bale in less humid climes or new or engineered wood products. Yes, some fossil fuel will go into harvesting equipment. Some into transportation and harvest energies. Some even into milling and molding. But the equation's product is still phenomenally more carbon negative than metal ores, whether recycled or not, especially when the construction is done in a manner consistant with 100 year + builidng life cycles and carbon storage for such a long duration. Save the metal for those applications where no other material can replace it, or where it reduces life-cycle, fossil energy inputs. Steel may be quick, but it's not magically less painless for the environment simply becuase humans have painted a recylced triangle on the base of every metal framing stud. Chris wrote: Todd, of course you are correct that energy is used to recycle steel. However, no more land is strip mined, and no new land is disturbed to bury the old broken washing machine that got melted down. Were the electricity generated in a sustainable way, it would be all good. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? Something that requires a boatload of fossil fuels to smelt, sheet and press. Nice thing about renewables. They're renewable. And to a very large they do it in a carbon neutral way without much interference from humans. Todd Swearingen. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Ditto. De-evolution anyone? I'm sure Southern Baptists, et al, would fight the teaching of that in the U.S. public school systems every bit as staunchly as they oppose evolution. How about a three-sixths compromise.? Intelligent de-evolution. :-) Todd Swearingen What is really needed is to put the brakes on the pervasive need for expansion that our capitalist system requires in order to sustain itself. I don't know what can replace it but I have a feeling we are going to find out in the next decade or so. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hard to say where the truth is in all of this debate regarding cutting trees. In Canada forest is one of our largest natural .ahemresources. Currently more forest area is lost to natural causes than logging. Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes. The ecological impact is not a clear cut issue (pardon the pun). Granted a mature forest supports a different ecology than a second growth but for instance studies have shown that there is more food for bears in a clearcut zone than there is in a mature forest. I can vouch for this and the proof is in the sheer number of bears I have seen in clearcut areas in the province of British Columbia vs old growth areas. Clear cutting is still bad for what it does to soil retention on slopes but consider that a mature forest WILL burn eventually one hot dry summer during an electrical storm and all the lumber will have gone to waste and a lot of CO2 and particulate would have gone into the air. I have also been told that trees contibute relatively little oxygen to our atmosphere compared to the majority which comes from algae in the sea. Is this true? I've not verified it. Surely in a place like Canada using lumber makes sense from the perspective of localization vs globalization. Steel mills and recycling foundaries are few and far apart and require energy and transportation over long distances. The lumber industry uses heavy equipment for sure but there are thousands of saw mills that can process lumber right where it is cut and it can be used there as well. Lumber will not disappear any time soon as a building material. If logging was banned here construction companies would look for imported lumber possibly imported from regions where lack of environmental standards and logging practices are much more damaging to the earth. What is really needed is to put the brakes on the pervasive need for expansion that our capitalist system requires in order to sustain itself. I don't know what can replace it but I have a feeling we are going to find out in the next decade or so. Joe Chris wrote: Todd, of course you are correct that energy is used to recycle steel. However, no more land is strip mined, and no new land is disturbed to bury the old broken washing machine that got melted down. Were the electricity generated in a sustainable way, it would be all good. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? Something that requires a boatload of fossil fuels to smelt, sheet and press. Nice thing about renewables. They're renewable. And to a very large they do it in a carbon neutral way without much interference from humans. Todd Swearingen. Josephine Wee wrote: To Nancy Canning: We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? thanks. - Original Message - *From:* Nancy Canning mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:51 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? what about recycled tires. filled with dirt, then covered with stucco. Makes a mighty good building and is being used all over the southwest. - Original Message - *From:* Chris mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, July 02, 2005 8:35 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? I just built a utility building using the recycled steel structure by Panasteel, and I didn't have to join a get-rich-quick scheme to do it. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:04 PM *Subject:* [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Essentially, even recycled steel products are entirely carbon negative. Less energy than virgin steel, but entirely carbon negative. Uh., make that carbon positive. (Knew I should have taken that speed thinking course instead of the speed typing one.) Todd Swearingen Appal Energy wrote: U Chris, that's not quite correct. New steel is generally added to recycled steel to maintain structural integrity. Otherwise it begins to get to tinny. Not only do more mining energies go into the new fraction, but fossil fuels are still consumed in refining. This means more mining of coal - inclusive of strip mining - and production of coke. Essentially, even recycled steel products are entirely carbon negative. Less energy than virgin steel, but entirely carbon negative. That negative is considerably less when incorporating renewable building products, whether it be straw bale in less humid climes or new or engineered wood products. Yes, some fossil fuel will go into harvesting equipment. Some into transportation and harvest energies. Some even into milling and molding. But the equation's product is still phenomenally more carbon negative than metal ores, whether recycled or not, especially when the construction is done in a manner consistant with 100 year + builidng life cycles and carbon storage for such a long duration. Save the metal for those applications where no other material can replace it, or where it reduces life-cycle, fossil energy inputs. Steel may be quick, but it's not magically less painless for the environment simply becuase humans have painted a recylced triangle on the base of every metal framing stud. Chris wrote: Todd, of course you are correct that energy is used to recycle steel. However, no more land is strip mined, and no new land is disturbed to bury the old broken washing machine that got melted down. Were the electricity generated in a sustainable way, it would be all good. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? Something that requires a boatload of fossil fuels to smelt, sheet and press. Nice thing about renewables. They're renewable. And to a very large they do it in a carbon neutral way without much interference from humans. Todd Swearingen. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
hi, joe. a few counterpoints to some of your observations. Currently more forest area is lost to natural causes than logging. well, truly this is how it should be, so long as the 'natural' causes are not anomalously numerous due to 'unnatural' i.e. human-made environmental imbalances. Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes. how many of these replanted trees survive to maturity? is there independent data on this? the industry should be planting, at a minimum, three trees for each that it cuts for a reasonable assurance of achieving a net balance of 1-to-1. Granted a mature forest supports a different ecology than a second growth but for instance studies have shown that there is more food for bears in a clearcut zone than there is in a mature forest. i don't see the relevance of this. you could make the same argument for garbage dumps. does that mean we should be sending all these huge barges full of waste to the canadian wilderness? who conducted these studies? and who funded them? Clear cutting is still bad for what it does to soil retention on slopes but consider that a mature forest WILL burn eventually one hot dry summer during an electrical storm and all the lumber will have gone to waste and a lot of CO2 and particulate would have gone into the air. forest fires have been sending co2 into the atmosphere for millenia, but that isn't what has precipitated global warming. furhtermore, in the case of north america, fire has been one of the primary evolutionary forces. the ecosystem of this continent has a sort of co-dependency with fire; sort of like a purging/renewal mechanism. in fact, there are certain conifers which need the high tempatures of a wildfire for their cones to open and release the seeds. I have also been told that trees contibute relatively little oxygen to our atmosphere compared to the majority which comes from algae in the sea. Is this true? i don't know about this, but i've kind of always assumed that a plant's 'oxygen cycle' and 'co2 cycle' pretty much cancel each other out. but there's no denying that trees sequester large quantities of carbon (breaking down co2 to do so, no?). i love wood, so i don't think i'd want to see the lumber industry just disappear. but logging is hardly practiced in an ecological or environmentally friendly way, even in our countries with our. . .ahem. . .lofty environmental standards. the cases of truly thoughtful, careful, minimally disruptive logging on this continent are precious few. they can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand, and probably don't even account for 1% of the total logging activity. What is really needed is to put the brakes on the pervasive need for expansion that our capitalist system requires in order to sustain itself. couldn't agree with you more. -chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hello Rich I think that trees are a (renewable) resource that should be harvested. Yes, but how? Good ways and bad ways... there are some interesting discussions (and arguments) about this in the list archives. Otherwise, trees, like other resources, will get depleted, no matter the quantity of trees. The more there is of the resource, the more time it takes to deplete it and the more the hurt after it is gone. I ordered this fascinating book Les Methodes Jean Pain ou Un Autre Jardin (The Jean Pain Methods or Another Garden) from www.jean-pain.com (in French) that does just that. It can be ordered using Paypal, among other payment methods. Tree harvesting. removing dead branches, shred them and compost them. Removing dead branches has the added benefit of reducing wild fire risk. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#pain Biofuels Library - Journey to Forever Jean Pain: France's King of Green Gold http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#treecrops Small Farms Library - Journey to Forever Tree Crops: A Permanent Agriculture by J. Russell Smith The Overstory, Agroforestry Net, Inc. http://www.overstory.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hard to say where the truth is in all of this debate regarding cutting trees. In Canada forest is one of our largest natural .ahemresources. Currently more forest area is lost to natural causes than logging. Trees are renewable and the lumber industry now replants more trees than it takes. The ecological impact is not a clear cut issue (pardon the pun). Granted a mature forest supports a different ecology than a second growth but for instance studies have shown that there is more food for bears in a clearcut zone than there is in a mature forest. I can vouch for this and the proof is in the sheer number of bears I have seen in clearcut areas in the province of British Columbia vs old growth areas. Clear cutting is still bad for what it does to soil retention on slopes but consider that a mature forest WILL burn eventually one hot dry summer during an electrical storm and all the lumber will have gone to waste and a lot of CO2 and particulate would have gone into the air. I have also been told that trees contibute relatively little oxygen to our atmosphere compared to the majority which comes from algae in the sea. Is this true? I've not verified it. Surely in a place like Canada using lumber makes sense from the perspective of localization vs globalization. Steel mills and recycling foundaries are few and far apart and require energy and transportation over long distances. The lumber industry uses heavy equipment for sure but there are thousands of saw mills that can process lumber right where it is cut and it can be used there as well. Lumber will not disappear any time soon as a building material. If logging was banned here construction companies would look for imported lumber possibly imported from regions where lack of environmental standards and logging practices are much more damaging to the earth. What is really needed is to put the brakes on the pervasive need for expansion that our capitalist system requires in order to sustain itself. I don't know what can replace it but I have a feeling we are going to find out in the next decade or so. We'll replace it. There may still be two superpowers on the planet: the United States and world public opinion. - The New York Times http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030414s=schell The Other Superpower | Jonathan Schell Best wishes Keith Joe Chris wrote: Todd, of course you are correct that energy is used to recycle steel. However, no more land is strip mined, and no new land is disturbed to bury the old broken washing machine that got melted down. Were the electricity generated in a sustainable way, it would be all good. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? Something that requires a boatload of fossil fuels to smelt, sheet and press. Nice thing about renewables. They're renewable. And to a very large they do it in a carbon neutral way without much interference from humans. Todd Swearingen. Josephine Wee wrote: To Nancy Canning: We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? thanks. - Original Message - *From:* Nancy Canning mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:51 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? what about recycled tires. filled with dirt, then covered with stucco. Makes a mighty good building and is being used all over
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Try these links: http://www.papercrete.com/ http://www.rammedearthworks.com/ http://www.deatech.com/cobcottage/ http://www.adobebuilder.com/ http://www.earthship.org/ http://www.touchtheearthranch.com/tirestart.htm --Randy Charlotte, NC - Original Message - From: Josephine Wee To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 3:13 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Ms. Nancy Canning We are interested in how one builds a house with recycled tires, dirt and stucco. where canI find a website showing this? \ thanks. - Original Message - From: Nancy Canning To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? what about recycled tires. filled with dirt,then covered with stucco. Makes a mighty good building and is being used all over the southwest. - Original Message - From: Chris To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? I just built a utility building using the recycled steel structure by Panasteel, and I didn't have to join a get-rich-quick scheme to do it. Chris KCayce, SC - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:04 PM Subject: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Have you ever wondered how many trees were killed to build your home ? Go to this link an see how many and what you can do to change that whether it be a garage or a stadium ?http://customsuperhomes.com/mykI would like to make that change for America, after viewing the information signup to send me your information so we can build it together,Myk HillEnvironmental Builder Professionalhttp://customsuperhomes.com/mykPh Fx: 206-600-5632PO Box 291Morrisville, NC 27560 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Panasteel is a company in Savannah, GA USA, that buys recycled steel and makes wood frame alternative material. Their website is www.panasteel.com. I am sure that there is a company in your country that is doing the same thing and would be a more logical choice. I mention Panasteel because they have a design dimension to their business and also pre-fab sections in the factory. Very interesting stuff, if I were to build a house or commercial building I would use this material. Standard construction will withstand a class 3 hurricane. Plus, after going to our local Home Show in the spring, I found that I won a drawing for a FREE 12 x 24 structure. And I never win anything! Chris KCayce, SC - Original Message - From: Josephine Wee To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 3:07 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? To Nancy Canning: We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? thanks. - Original Message - From: Nancy Canning To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? what about recycled tires. filled with dirt,then covered with stucco. Makes a mighty good building and is being used all over the southwest. - Original Message - From: Chris To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? I just built a utility building using the recycled steel structure by Panasteel, and I didn't have to join a get-rich-quick scheme to do it. Chris KCayce, SC - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:04 PM Subject: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Have you ever wondered how many trees were killed to build your home ? Go to this link an see how many and what you can do to change that whether it be a garage or a stadium ?http://customsuperhomes.com/mykI would like to make that change for America, after viewing the information signup to send me your information so we can build it together,Myk HillEnvironmental Builder Professionalhttp://customsuperhomes.com/mykPh Fx: 206-600-5632PO Box 291Morrisville, NC 27560 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? Something that requires a boatload of fossil fuels to smelt, sheet and press. Nice thing about renewables. They're renewable. And to a very large they do it in a carbon neutral way without much interference from humans. Todd Swearingen. Josephine Wee wrote: To Nancy Canning: We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? thanks. - Original Message - *From:* Nancy Canning mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:51 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? what about recycled tires. filled with dirt, then covered with stucco. Makes a mighty good building and is being used all over the southwest. - Original Message - *From:* Chris mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, July 02, 2005 8:35 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? I just built a utility building using the recycled steel structure by Panasteel, and I didn't have to join a get-rich-quick scheme to do it. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:04 PM *Subject:* [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Have you ever wondered how many trees were killed to build your home ? Go to this link an see how many and what you can do to change that whether it be a garage or a stadium ? http://customsuperhomes.com/myk I would like to make that change for America, after viewing the information signup to send me your information so we can build it together, Myk Hill Environmental Builder Professional http://customsuperhomes.com/myk Ph Fx: 206-600-5632 PO Box 291 Morrisville, NC 27560 http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSief010 http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSief010 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
go to Google, type in recycled tire earth home and you havemany of web pages, even designs for homes made from recycled tires filled with earth and then stucco over.It's a great energy efficient way to build. - Original Message - From: Josephine Wee To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 2:13 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Ms. Nancy Canning We are interested in how one builds a house with recycled tires, dirt and stucco. where canI find a website showing this? \ thanks. - Original Message - From: Nancy Canning To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? what about recycled tires. filled with dirt,then covered with stucco. Makes a mighty good building and is being used all over the southwest. - Original Message - From: Chris To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? I just built a utility building using the recycled steel structure by Panasteel, and I didn't have to join a get-rich-quick scheme to do it. Chris KCayce, SC - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:04 PM Subject: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Have you ever wondered how many trees were killed to build your home ? Go to this link an see how many and what you can do to change that whether it be a garage or a stadium ?http://customsuperhomes.com/mykI would like to make that change for America, after viewing the information signup to send me your information so we can build it together,Myk HillEnvironmental Builder Professionalhttp://customsuperhomes.com/mykPh Fx: 206-600-5632PO Box 291Morrisville, NC 27560 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
on 7/4/05 7:28 AM, Nancy Canning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: go to Google, type in recycled tire earth home and you have many of web pages, even designs for homes made from recycled tires filled with earth and then stucco over. It's a great energy efficient way to build. Ahhh, if only it were that simple. Here in California, just building a yurt to live in while you build your strawbale is SUCH a hassle -- the gummint wants to tell you how to do EVERYTHING! I can't wait til it runs outta money. Happy 4 July, 14 juillet, et tous les autres révolutions! -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
What about cast earth, and how would it compare to flyash concrete construction? - Original Message - From: Randall To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 5:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Try these links: http://www.papercrete.com/ http://www.rammedearthworks.com/ http://www.deatech.com/cobcottage/ http://www.adobebuilder.com/ http://www.earthship.org/ http://www.touchtheearthranch.com/tirestart.htm --Randy Charlotte, NC - Original Message - From: Josephine Wee To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 3:13 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Ms. Nancy Canning We are interested in how one builds a house with recycled tires, dirt and stucco. where canI find a website showing this? \ thanks. - Original Message - From: Nancy Canning To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? what about recycled tires. filled with dirt,then covered with stucco. Makes a mighty good building and is being used all over the southwest. - Original Message - From: Chris To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? I just built a utility building using the recycled steel structure by Panasteel, and I didn't have to join a get-rich-quick scheme to do it. Chris KCayce, SC - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:04 PM Subject: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Have you ever wondered how many trees were killed to build your home ? Go to this link an see how many and what you can do to change that whether it be a garage or a stadium ?http://customsuperhomes.com/mykI would like to make that change for America, after viewing the information signup to send me your information so we can build it together,Myk HillEnvironmental Builder Professionalhttp://customsuperhomes.com/mykPh Fx: 206-600-5632PO Box 291Morrisville, NC 27560 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
To Nancy Canning: We do not live in the US. Would like to know what is this panasteel or recycled steel? thanks. - Original Message - From: Nancy Canning To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? what about recycled tires. filled with dirt,then covered with stucco. Makes a mighty good building and is being used all over the southwest. - Original Message - From: Chris To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? I just built a utility building using the recycled steel structure by Panasteel, and I didn't have to join a get-rich-quick scheme to do it. Chris KCayce, SC - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:04 PM Subject: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Have you ever wondered how many trees were killed to build your home ? Go to this link an see how many and what you can do to change that whether it be a garage or a stadium ?http://customsuperhomes.com/mykI would like to make that change for America, after viewing the information signup to send me your information so we can build it together,Myk HillEnvironmental Builder Professionalhttp://customsuperhomes.com/mykPh Fx: 206-600-5632PO Box 291Morrisville, NC 27560 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Ms. Nancy Canning We are interested in how one builds a house with recycled tires, dirt and stucco. where canI find a website showing this? \ thanks. - Original Message - From: Nancy Canning To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? what about recycled tires. filled with dirt,then covered with stucco. Makes a mighty good building and is being used all over the southwest. - Original Message - From: Chris To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? I just built a utility building using the recycled steel structure by Panasteel, and I didn't have to join a get-rich-quick scheme to do it. Chris KCayce, SC - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:04 PM Subject: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Have you ever wondered how many trees were killed to build your home ? Go to this link an see how many and what you can do to change that whether it be a garage or a stadium ?http://customsuperhomes.com/mykI would like to make that change for America, after viewing the information signup to send me your information so we can build it together,Myk HillEnvironmental Builder Professionalhttp://customsuperhomes.com/mykPh Fx: 206-600-5632PO Box 291Morrisville, NC 27560 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
The link does not come up, something must be wrong with the address? Deborah Howard (new on the list) - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:04 PM Subject: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Have you ever wondered how many trees were killed to build your home ? Go to this link an see how many and what you can do to change that whether it be a garage or a stadium ?http://customsuperhomes.com/mykI would like to make that change for America, after viewing the information signup to send me your information so we can build it together,Myk HillEnvironmental Builder Professionalhttp://customsuperhomes.com/mykPh Fx: 206-600-5632PO Box 291Morrisville, NC 27560 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
I just built a utility building using the recycled steel structure by Panasteel, and I didn't have to join a get-rich-quick scheme to do it. Chris KCayce, SC - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:04 PM Subject: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Have you ever wondered how many trees were killed to build your home ? Go to this link an see how many and what you can do to change that whether it be a garage or a stadium ?http://customsuperhomes.com/mykI would like to make that change for America, after viewing the information signup to send me your information so we can build it together,Myk HillEnvironmental Builder Professionalhttp://customsuperhomes.com/mykPh Fx: 206-600-5632PO Box 291Morrisville, NC 27560 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you ever wondered how many trees were killed to build your home ? Go to this link an see how many and what you can do to change that whether it be a garage or a stadium ? Having finished construction of my own house less than three years ago, and being dismayed at the waste involved in the whole process, I went to the link with a high degree of interest. However, I didn't find anything about trees in the link supplied. What I DID get to is a marketing page of a company trying to sell building materials constructed from a mixture of fly ash (coal power plant residue) and sawdust. It MIGHT be benign, given that fly ash is used as a soil conditioner, but then: There have been several reports in the literature on the presence of radionuclides in Fly Ash but studies on their impact have been few (Coles et.al. 1978; Gowiak and Pacynas, 1980). The radiochemical pollution of Uranium and Thorium series is always present in Fly Ash (Eisenbud and Petrow 1964). The concentration of natural Uranium varies from 14 to 100 ppm although in exceptional cases it may be as high as 1500 ppm whereas that of Thorium is less than 10 ppm. The Fly Ash concentrates besides other gaseous and trace metal oxides, several radioactive contaminants like 222Ru 220Ru (Sharma et.al. 1989) In 1995 the EPA relaxed the disposal rules for fly ash. Here's a quote: EPA Rescues the MSW Incinerator Industry with January 1995 Ash Ruling. When Carol Browner made the announcement in January 1995 that the trash incinerator industry could mix the bottom ash and the fly ash together prior to the toxicity testing required by the Supreme Court ruling of May 2, 1994 (see Waste Not # 280) she gave the kiss of life to a dying industry. Trash incineration is the most unpopular technology since nuclear power. Since 1985 over 280 incinerator proposals have either been defeated outright or put on hold (see Waste Not #s 283-294). Not only is incineration extremely unpopular with citizens, but for those officials who examine the economic liabilities entailed (and who avoid the wooing of the consultants and financiers who can make a fortune out of the hidden taxation of municipal bonding) it is a very dubious economic proposition. One of those economic liabilities is the enormous cost involved of disposing of the ash produced (approximately one ton of ash for every three tons of trash) if it receives a “hazardous waste” designation. How the incinerator industry, and its friends in the EPA and state and regulatory agencies, have done their level best to avoid this designation is a long and convoluted story. As long and convoluted as the story may be, the trajectory of the saga was clearly spelled out by David Sussman (formerly with the EPA and now Vice President for Environmental Affairs for Ogden Martin) in an article which appeared in the Waste-To-Energy Report of September 10, 1986: “It means finito, morte, the end for the resource recovery industry if ash is treated as hazardous waste...Either that or widespread violations. There is simply no room for four million additional tons annually of ash waste. It would overwhelm all existing hazardous waste fills.” Carol Browner’s Gift to the Incineration Industry. When many environmentalists read about Browner’s decision on ash testing requirements they probably felt two things: (a) at least she is following the Supreme Court’s ruling that the ash should be tested and (b) she has done a little favor to the incinerator industry by allowing them to dilute the more toxic fly ash with the less toxic bottom ash, prior to testing. However, it was more than a little favor, this is a huge giveaway. Fly ash also contains heavy metals, like lead and cadmium. In an enclosed building these may not present much of a hazard to humans, UNLESS people are exposed to the material during construction or renovations, where drilling and cutting can release dust into the air. A good question is: Are you ready to risk your health and the health of your loved ones? As for me and my house, we will stick with lumber, thank you! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
what about recycled tires. filled with dirt,then covered with stucco. Makes a mighty good building and is being used all over the southwest. - Original Message - From: Chris To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? I just built a utility building using the recycled steel structure by Panasteel, and I didn't have to join a get-rich-quick scheme to do it. Chris KCayce, SC - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:04 PM Subject: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ? Have you ever wondered how many trees were killed to build your home ? Go to this link an see how many and what you can do to change that whether it be a garage or a stadium ?http://customsuperhomes.com/mykI would like to make that change for America, after viewing the information signup to send me your information so we can build it together,Myk HillEnvironmental Builder Professionalhttp://customsuperhomes.com/mykPh Fx: 206-600-5632PO Box 291Morrisville, NC 27560 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
