Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
Motie, You are again using a wide brush and water colors to paint detailed gingerbread trim. The wide brush is all too encompassing and the water color paint doesn't hold up in all conditions. Using one instance in whatever state you describe as the Nanny State still leaves thousands of instances and 49 other states unaddressed - not all of which are prone to sufficient snow pack for two stroke tracks, of course. Broad strokes don't take into consideration the wear differential between 18, 6 or even 4 hard driving, braking and turning wheels under max legal road weights and high speeds and a tandem carrying two persons subscribing to Weight Watchers with fully loaded saddle bags. Broad strokes don't address the differential acquisition, construction and maintenance costs per mile to handle the same passenger flow, or a thousand other tax based cost/benefit nuances along each transportation corridor, no matter if it be a bike path, interstate or air lane. As for tax allocation, it sounds as if you're more in favor of a user pays system, as you don't want transportation taxes allocated to transportation sectors other than where they are collected. Even when using such a schedule, a tractor-trailer is going to put different burdens on infrastructure than a Yugo, Cressida or Caprice. But the retort the public will always hear is that truckers are the backbone of America and therefore should be given a pass - even under a user pays system? Funny...People who don't smoke pay taxes which buy life support for enfasymics and canceritics. People who don't mainline pay dearly for international and domestic drug control policies. People who don't have children pay through the nose for schools, teachers and administrators through elevated property taxes. Frankly, I can hardly wait until the day when the true cost of petroleum production is allocated strictly against the cost of a gallon of petrol, as is largely done in Europe, rather than through hidden taxation as is done here. No doubt transportation industries will really cry foul then, having a strong go at stirring up the public sentiment, using the traditional increased cost of goods argument to rally support. And when they succeed, as is often the case, those of us who consume little fuel will continue to heavily subsidize the tax base for those who consume considerably more. So, Motie... I'm sorry. But you won't be seeing me joining you on a soapbox until you can get a little more specific and until those specifics begin to outweigh all the other injustices that are getting painted over and ignored by broad brush strokes. And you probably won't be seeing many tears in my eyes over snowmobilers having their trails re-appropriated. Seven winters in Alaska doesn't give me any great respect for the vast majority of snow mobilers, any more than annual retreats to wilderness areas give me a drop of respect for off road bycyclists who run trekkers off the trails. Besides, if you're talking equity or parity, the horse and buggy industry had the same thing happen to all the trails they originally broke. Now they have the luxury of 3,000 - 45,000 pound sleds come crashing through their back seats every time they venture out on the very roads their industry once cleared. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 5:54 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay...Nothing more inviting in a discussion than all-encompassing, generally sweeping statements like the one below. Don't suppose anyone has ever calculated the proportions of road tax expenditures to see how much went to bicycle paths, how much went to pot holes and by-passes and how much went to tarmac and terminals? I certainly wouldn't mind seeing $7,000 from each trucker in the US go to nothing but bike paths for an entire year - or just one or two good transcontinental bike lanes on an existing highway so those who long to travel by bicycle no longer have to be as concerned with the numerous motor vehicle operators who can't tell the difference and all too frequently could care less what the difference is between a family of opossums and a half dozen bicyclists. Just a thought from someone who would still be riding ~500 miles a week if they hadn't already been forced off the road ~20 times in less than 2 years by ijuts who got their license out of a Cracker Jack box. Todd Swearingen Then why can't we tax bicycle riders and frequent fliers to pay for highway repairs? I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest, but why should truckers be singled out to pay for bicycle paths and airport runways? The increase I mentioned was $.05 gallon and was used for bicycle paths and other non-highway projects. That's pretty easily $5/day increase for truckers to pay
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
Motie, How 'bout just makin' it simple for us poor knee jerk reactionaries whose knees don't work as fast as they used to? Exactly where is it that your trucker buds are getting bled dry and other consumers of road use fuel did not? Seems to me that the industry got off really light for half a century when diesel fuel was being sold for half the price of gasoline. Sure didn't hear any bitching then. Personally? I'd like to see 9/10ths of the airline industry and 3/5ths of the trucking industry out of a job as quickly as the infrastructure can be altered without economic devastation. Which would also mean one hell of a lot of other alterations around the global economic for about 30 years. Again...Sorry, but you won't find me too far out of synch with anything that promotes de-escalation of consumerism, excess consumption, rapid access, instant gratification and general radical transformation of the face, waters and air of this Eartheven if it means I won't be embroidering any more billboard caps for truckers and I have to start using home grown oil on the lap siding rather than imported Sherwin Williams from the nearest metro center. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 6:09 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for tax allocation, it sounds as if you're more in favor of a user pays system, as you don't want transportation taxes allocated to transportation sectors other than where they are collected. Even when using such a schedule, a tractor-trailer is going to put different burdens on infrastructure than a Yugo, Cressida or Caprice. But the retort the public will always hear is that truckers are the backbone of America and therefore should be given a pass - even under a user pays system? I never intended to give the impression that I thought truckers should be given a free pass. I DO think that at least a majority of what they pay should be used for highways. Funny...People who don't smoke pay taxes which buy life support for enfasymics and canceritics. People who don't mainline pay dearly for international and domestic drug control policies. People who don't have children pay through the nose for schools, teachers and administrators through elevated property taxes. And I disagree with most of this too. Parents that are concerned about their children's education are already paying twice. Once through property taxes to support Public Indoctrination centers, and once more for actual education in private or home schools. Frankly, I can hardly wait until the day when the true cost of petroleum production is allocated strictly against the cost of a gallon of petrol, as is largely done in Europe, rather than through hidden taxation as is done here. No doubt transportation industries will really cry foul then, having a strong go at stirring up the public sentiment, using the traditional increased cost of goods argument to rally support. And when they succeed, as is often the case, those of us who consume little fuel will continue to heavily subsidize the tax base for those who consume considerably more. Once again, we are in agreement. It's a 'Rob Peter to pay Paul' concept. Those who don't use much fuel subsidize somewhat those who do use a lot, and those who do use a lot are taxed very heavily for uses not at all related to fuel useage. So, Motie... I'm sorry. But you won't be seeing me joining you on a soapbox until you can get a little more specific and until those specifics begin to outweigh all the other injustices that are getting painted over and ignored by broad brush strokes. I think we are on the same soapbox already. I only pointed out a couple of the many details that don't seem to be sensible. And you probably won't be seeing many tears in my eyes over snowmobilers having their trails re-appropriated. Seven winters in Alaska doesn't give me any great respect for the vast majority of snow mobilers, any more than annual retreats to wilderness areas give me a drop of respect for off road bycyclists who run trekkers off the trails. Try taxing snowmobile fuel and raising registration fees to put in snowmobile trails, then pave them for bicycle use, and then ban snowmobiles from using them. Or institute a 10% tax on all fishing gear to build a nice access to a popular lake, then ban fishing on it. See if that won't raise a protest by fishermen. Besides, if you're talking equity or parity, the horse and buggy industry had the same thing happen to all the trails they originally broke. Now they have the luxury of 3,000 - 45,000 pound sleds come crashing through their back seats every time they venture out on the very roads their industry once cleared. I'm not sure
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
What? Me? Hostile? ROFFL...FROFFL... Don't take it too personally Motie. Just the older I get the less sypathies I have. Probably an ingrained response to seeing the remaining half of the pie getting divided into halves yet again too many times and seeing too many self interests jockeying for premium positions at a one lane starting gate. I think I've in part adopted the general position of the ground hog. I eat, sleep and wish to all the that is good that humans would stop screwing with all the good tall green stuff with their damned lawn mowers. Actually, not a whole lot of time sleeping and a boatload of time trying to keep people from mowing down all the good green stuff. Todd - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 8:20 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Todd, I'm detecting a hostile undertone that I don't quite understand the basis of. Is it my perception that is faulty? Exactly where is it that your trucker buds are getting bled dry and other consumers of road use fuel did not? It isn't only Truckers that are being bled, but they are specifically singled out for many other taxes that other users are exempt from besides fuel and registration. Tire taxes are one of them, and 12% excise tax on all parts is another. Car and Bus owners used to pay about $3 each Federal Excise tax on tires. Car owners are now exempt from the tire tax, while the tire tax for truckers was doubled to make the difference. A Bus uses the same tires as trucks do, but are exempt from the tax. Many buses use the same engines as trucks do, but aren't subject to the 12% excise tax on all truck related parts. Batteries and brakes are also the same. My main complaint is that if trucks are to be subjected to all these taxes that others are exempt from, the money should be spent on highways that trucks use. Trucks aren't allowed on bicycle paths or airports runways. Personally? I'd like to see 9/10ths of the airline industry and 3/5ths of the trucking industry out of a job as quickly as the infrastructure can be altered without economic devastation. I am actively working on this myself, at least as far as local energy supplies are concerned. I think it is totally foolish to import nearly all of our energy, when we have so much available locally that is being disposed of. Which would also mean one hell of a lot of other alterations around the global economic for about 30 years. And it would get much of the decision making back to a local level instead of being mandated by people who are thoroughly ignorant of the details. Again...Sorry, but you won't find me too far out of synch with anything that promotes de-escalation of consumerism, excess consumption, rapid access, instant gratification and general radical transformation of the face, waters and air of this Eartheven if it means I won't be embroidering any more billboard caps for truckers and I have to start using home grown oil on the lap siding rather than imported Sherwin Williams from the nearest metro center. Which goes right back to my belief that goods should be produced and used locally, instead of being imported from out of state or internationally. My immediate personal focus is on local energy use. In my immediate local area, there is an abundance of wood products being burned or hauled away to rot in a pile, while we import Coal and Natural Gas for heat and electricity, and import foreign oil for transportation fuels. Ethanol and synthetic Diesel Fuel can be produced from this resource, along with electricity from byproduct steam and heat. Politics and Bureaucracy are currently preventing me from doing any of this commercially. I have a homebuilt prototype gasifier that I ran for a couple of hours last week on waste wood. I will run it on Peat this coming week if I have time. Current use is to heat the atmosphere. I can't get Permits to connect the output to the grid. I am looking for a small water-cooled Diesel (30-40 HP)to run a generator from the gasifier output. After optimization, I intend to connect to the grid without any permits, at least to reverse meter my electrical use. Excess heat from the engine coolant and exhaust will be used for water-heating. Personal finances don't allow for a greenhouse/fermentation facility just yet, but I will have an energy source avaiable for when that time comes. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
- Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 18:57 Subject: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks Can I produce Methane from their droppings? Yes. Can they be trained to poop in a sample collection jar? LOL We won't know until you try. ;-) Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
On Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 10:09:16PM -, motie_d wrote: Perhaps Sports Stadiums should be forced to raise ticket prices by $10 each for a couple of seasons to raise funds to build a new Stadium, Unfortunately, what seems to be happening more and more is the taxpayer is forced to pay for the new stadium (so the rich owners and rich players can get even richer) even if they detest the sports. It's fun to drive by the stadium and pray curses on the team tho. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
On Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 06:36:53PM -0400, Appal Energy wrote: Motie, How 'bout just makin' it simple for us poor knee jerk reactionaries whose knees don't work as fast as they used to? Exactly where is it that your trucker buds are getting bled dry and other consumers of road use fuel did not? Seems to me that the industry got off really light for half a century when diesel fuel was being sold for half the price of gasoline. Sure didn't hear any bitching then. Yes, and fuel cost is just an operating expense anyway, deductable from your income tax, so what's the problem? Personally? I'd like to see 9/10ths of the airline industry and 3/5ths of the trucking industry out of a job as quickly as the infrastructure can be altered without economic devastation. Which would also mean one hell of a lot of other alterations around the global economic for about 30 years. Hear, hear. One thing that really ticks me off is that the trains have been allowed to deteriorate so badly here that they are essentially unusable for commuting anymore. I live exactly 80 miles from both Milwauke and Madison, where the good jobs are -- if I could ride the train to work, I'd not mind at all commuting to either place, but no way can I handle driving that far. My dad used to ride the train 75 miles into Chicago every day. In fact, I'd really like to see private motor vehicles just banned from the city limits of every city, and only electric buses and minibus taxies allowed, plus HPVs. Electric delivery vehicles of some sort, I suppose. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
That is such a scam. The politicians tried that in Hartford, CT. It got shot down and the NE Patriots tried to sue. Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | 203.324.4371 www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ - Original Message - From: Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks On Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 10:09:16PM -, motie_d wrote: Perhaps Sports Stadiums should be forced to raise ticket prices by $10 each for a couple of seasons to raise funds to build a new Stadium, Unfortunately, what seems to be happening more and more is the taxpayer is forced to pay for the new stadium (so the rich owners and rich players can get even richer) even if they detest the sports. It's fun to drive by the stadium and pray curses on the team tho. -- Harmon Seaver Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 10:22:34PM -, motie_d wrote: Because that is what consumers will buy. If no one was buying Harleys because of the noise, they would quiet them down. That's irrelevant -- the fact is that their exhaust system is illegal, and something needs to be done about it. It's irrelevant what the riders want or what the company wants, they have no right to inflict that noise on the rest of us. Same with trucks - there's not the slightest rationality behind the lack of adequate mufflers on trucks. The big problem has been that cops don't ticket Harleys because most police departments also have Harleys, so somehow, they're okay. Same thing with trucks and heavy equipment -- there's this attitude that somehow they're exempt from muffler laws and noise ordinances. In the trucking industry, new truck sales are skyrocketing, and so are newer used trucks. No one wants to buy the less-efficient engines that will require much more expensive maintainance that are being mandated. Check out Cummins' http://www.cummins.com/na/pages/en/products/trucks/isx.cfm website and their ISX engine. I prefer the higher torque of the 600 Signature Series, but the ISX is still pretty good at 1850 ft/lbs., and can meet emmissions standards. Mercedes or VW can't compare or compete. You admitted that European manufacturers can't meet our emmissions standards using our fuel. Cummins can. They could, they just apparantly don't want to bother, they're selling all they can build to the rest of the world, so why make a special US model? Maybe you haven't noticed, but an awful lot of the rest of the world isn't overly fond of the US, nor will bother to go out of their way for us. I think it's more a matter of a cowboy attitude than anything else -- the macho I'll do what I want and to hell with everybody else attitude we see so prevalent in US foreign policy and everything else. I agree that may be a portion of the problem, but I think it mostly comes down to economics. I can't afford to pay an extra $5000 for an engine that gets less mileage, and needs more maintainance. How many people would buy a Mercedes, if they had to pay $5000 extra for an engine that has less horsepower and fuel economy? The hi-tech diesels they sell outside the US don't cost $5000 more or anywhere near that, and they get much better horsepower per cc and much better fuel economy than anything built here. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
European countries already have a hand in the US truck market. Freightliner and Sterling trucks are owned by Mercedes as well as Detroit Diesel. Volvo owns Volvo trucks and Mack. Volvo makes several diesel engines in Europe that are used in US trucks. New Holland-Case IH farm and construction equipment are owned mainly by Fiat. Looks to me like Europe has their hands in the mess also. Larry Ruebush west central IL Long time farmer and trucker [don't bitch with you mouth full] - Original Message - From: motie_d To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 1:43 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's irrelevant -- the fact is that their exhaust system is illegal, and something needs to be done about it. It's irrelevant what the riders want or what the company wants, they have no right to inflict that noise on the rest of us. I don't believe a manufacturer can sell a motor vehicle that doesn't meet noise limit laws. After market exhaust systems may be louder than legal, and people are ticketted all the time for it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
On Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 06:43:09AM -, motie_d wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's irrelevant -- the fact is that their exhaust system is illegal, and something needs to be done about it. It's irrelevant what the riders want or what the company wants, they have no right to inflict that noise on the rest of us. I don't believe a manufacturer can sell a motor vehicle that doesn't meet noise limit laws. After market exhaust systems may be louder than legal, and people are ticketted all the time for it. Check a new Harley at the dealer -- it's excessive noise, totally stock. In fact, Harley had to change it to sell bikes in Europe. Listen to a cop's Harley, quite excessive. And you won't find loud bikes getting tickets around here, that's for sure. Total straight pipes or megaphones are the norm. Same with trucks - there's not the slightest rationality behind the lack of adequate mufflers on trucks. That is also a legality issue, and truckers are ticketted often for exceeding noise limits. Many of them figure it is cheaper to pay the fines than it is to buy the extra fuel it takes to force the exhaust through a muffler. I think Paul Gobert's post on the law there for stereo noise would do, impound the vehicle. Make it a point issue, take their CDL. As a compromise, many trucks have 2 of those heavy expensive mufflers, so they can be legal and get better mileage. Dual exhaust systems add 200 pounds easily, and just the mufflers are $800 each, besides the extra pipes. The big problem has been that cops don't ticket Harleys because most police departments also have Harleys, so somehow, they're okay. Same thing with trucks and heavy equipment -- there's this attitude that somehow they're exempt from muffler laws and noise ordinances. I've never came across this attitude. Most Bikers and Truckers have the attitude that most noise laws are intended for revenue enhancement. They get that attitude from personal experience. Well, having lived on MN's Iron Range quite recently, I sure heard plenty of loud Harleys there. I can well recall sitting on a high ridge above the mine at Eveleth watching a Harley miles away, and being annoyed at how loud he was even at that distance. Around here, as I said above, there seems to be no enforcement of muffler laws, and I'm not sure why that is. We've even asked the Chief of Police why they don't, and he lied and claimed they did, as there was a news reporter present, but they couldn't -- many of the bikes don't even have to be running to get a ticket -- no muffler whatsoever. (snip) There is much serious discussion going on, whether it will be cheaper for Trucking companies and engine manufacturers to pay the fines for NOT complying, than to pay the cost to be in compliance. Make it a point issue, points against the CDL. Or impound the vehicle. The trucking industry is also concerned about the safety implications. If new trucks are too expensive to buy and operate, the average age of trucks on the road will increase. Would you prefer to share the road with a shiny new truck, or one that has over 1 Million miles on it? As trucks get older maintainance costs increase. It's likely that many trucks will not get all the maintainance they need, as often as they need it, which may well result in an increase in actual emmissions. There's no reason the emission laws can't be retroactive. BTW, if you want to see some interesting trucks, you should go down to Alabama and check out the logging trucks on the road down there, and I don't mean on the back roads, but right on the freeway, in the city of Mobile, etc. Like 40 year old 5 tons they stick an extra axle under and carrying full treelength, hanging way, way off the back, like at least 1/3 of the length. Real freaky. I believe a much better solution would be to raise the fuel quality. Then even the European technology would be usable here. Yes, well that's the point, eh? But that's something all the US truck and car industry will fight tooth and nail right along with Big Oil. They don't want to compete. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
On Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 05:43:38PM +0900, Keith Addison wrote: Eric wrote: I think I should have to disagree about the loud pipes on bikes though. We know that 4 out of 5 motorcycle accidents are the cars fault. Cars notice bikes with loud pipes. ... Yes, and it probably annoys them and makes them more aggressive. Yes, it sure does. I owned bikes most of my adult life, starting with a Harley, then a Norton 600, then a Norton 750, etc. Never thought of myself as anti-bike, but when a Harley with straight pipes is next to me in traffic, I definitely have a real strong urge to just turn the steering wheel rapidly in his direction. I doubt I'd ever hit the brakes to avoid one turning in front of me. For the last 14 years or so the only bike I've had is pretty quiet, except for my puffing and huffing. I know what you mean about these morons and their deliberate noise making, get woken up by them all the time. Same with the stereos -- we've been woken up by car stereos in the dead of Winter, when it was below zero, so I know they had their windows rolled up, yet the noise was making our house windows rattle. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
On Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 06:56:20AM -0500, Larry Ruebush wrote: European countries already have a hand in the US truck market. Freightliner and Sterling trucks are owned by Mercedes as well as Detroit Diesel. Volvo owns Volvo trucks and Mack. Volvo makes several diesel engines in Europe that are used in US trucks. New Holland-Case IH farm and construction equipment are owned mainly by Fiat. Looks to me like Europe has their hands in the mess also. Yes, but they won't bring their good stuff over here. There are no Mercedes diesel cars imported anymore, VW only sends their low-end engines (which are still nicer than anything made in the US), etc. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
Build one of those EMP zappers and have fun with those car stereos. If they worked in a plant with that noise and damaged their ears(which most of these kids have already) you would pay out the nose. They do it willingly so oh well Should start a class action suit against the mfr and retailer of such crap Harmon. Kirk -Original Message- From: Harmon Seaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 6:18 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks On Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 05:43:38PM +0900, Keith Addison wrote: Eric wrote: I think I should have to disagree about the loud pipes on bikes though. We know that 4 out of 5 motorcycle accidents are the cars fault. Cars notice bikes with loud pipes. ... Yes, and it probably annoys them and makes them more aggressive. Yes, it sure does. I owned bikes most of my adult life, starting with a Harley, then a Norton 600, then a Norton 750, etc. Never thought of myself as anti-bike, but when a Harley with straight pipes is next to me in traffic, I definitely have a real strong urge to just turn the steering wheel rapidly in his direction. I doubt I'd ever hit the brakes to avoid one turning in front of me. For the last 14 years or so the only bike I've had is pretty quiet, except for my puffing and huffing. I know what you mean about these morons and their deliberate noise making, get woken up by them all the time. Same with the stereos -- we've been woken up by car stereos in the dead of Winter, when it was below zero, so I know they had their windows rolled up, yet the noise was making our house windows rattle. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 04:26:16AM -, motie_d wrote: I'm hesitant to jump into the middle of a hot debate, but IMHO the reason Cummins doesn't (not can't) build better Diesel engines, is the same reason Mercedes VW etc. won't/don't sell them here. Very poor fuel! Yes -- but it's the US auto industry, working hand and glove with Big Oil, who has shot down attempts to clean up diesel fuel. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy -- because we know if Detroit started demanding cleaner fuel, it would be happen quickly, but we also know the incestuous relationship there where the oil companies help the auto companies fight off milage requirements and then they return the favor via the clean fuel issue. A provocative thought...Who is really more technically advanced? The engine builders that can only use highly refined European fuels, or the ones who can run on the junk fuel we have in the US? Are we maybe comparing Apples and Oranges? It's not only who is more advanced, but who is more responsible. Let's face it, the US auto industry has built junk for decades. Think about it -- isn't it much easier to build a a low-efficiency engine that burns low quality fuel and gets low milage than to design a hi-tech engine that takes advantage of better fuel? Would it be a fair comparison to run a European engine on our junk fuel, and an American engine on European fuel? Which manufacturers will willingly provide warranty service for their engine if such a test were to be scheduled? My understanding is that the European (and Japanese) engines don't have that much problem running on our fuel, they just can't meet emission tests when they do, and why should they be expected to? Both industry and gov't knew decades ago that fuels needed to be cleaned up -- what are they waiting for? It should have been mandated 20 years ago. Instead we see the EPA blocking small biodiesel production -- what a sick joke. High sulfur fuel and coal is responsible for acid rain, we've known this for at least 40 years -- why is it still being burned and clean fuels being stonewalled? Pretty sick. I think we need much tighter controls on the trucking industry all across the board -- both in air pollution and noise pollution, why should they be exempt? Same with tractors and construction equipment and boats and planes. For some time now I've been thinking of starting a website to solicit funds for a class action lawsuit against Harley-Davidson for building an unsafe product - unsafe in that they violate all motor vehcle muffler laws right out of the showroom. It would be a pretty easy case to win, and the funds generated could then be used to hit all the other manufacturers of noisy machines. Back in '62 a friend of mine bought a brand new BMW motorcycle. It was so quiet you literally couldn't tell if it was running unless you put your hand on it or looked at the tach. It totally amazed those of us who grew up with Harley's (my first bike was a '47 Harley, btw). There's just no excuse for all those noisy, smoke belching machines -- the technolgy to build better stuff has been around for a long time -- why is US industry dragging it's feet? I think it's more a matter of a cowboy attitude than anything else -- the macho I'll do what I want and to hell with everybody else attitude we see so prevalent in US foreign policy and everything else. I was out fishing the other night and some asshole in a *huge* inboard boat with dual V8 engines and absolutely no mufflers was cruising up and down the river. What I would have given for a torpedo! -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
Okay...Nothing more inviting in a discussion than all-encompassing, generally sweeping statements like the one below. Don't suppose anyone has ever calculated the proportions of road tax expenditures to see how much went to bicycle paths, how much went to pot holes and by-passes and how much went to tarmac and terminals? I certainly wouldn't mind seeing $7,000 from each trucker in the US go to nothing but bike paths for an entire year - or just one or two good transcontinental bike lanes on an existing highway so those who long to travel by bicycle no longer have to be as concerned with the numerous motor vehicle operators who can't tell the difference and all too frequently could care less what the difference is between a family of opossums and a half dozen bicyclists. Just a thought from someone who would still be riding ~500 miles a week if they hadn't already been forced off the road ~20 times in less than 2 years by ijuts who got their license out of a Cracker Jack box. Todd Swearingen Harmon, Having been involved in trucking for over 25 years, I believe you have some serious misperceptions about trucking and truckers. We would LOVE to see fuel taxes spent on highway repairs. The last fuel increase was widely supported by truckers, in the mistaken belief that it would be spent on highway repairs. It was not! It was spent on paving bicycle paths and airport runways. The average truck(if there is such a thing) spends $7000/year in road-use taxes. Now if we could only get it spent on roads, instead of bicycle paths and airport runways and new city transit buses, we could all be happier. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
It also keeps European mfg out of their backyard thereby solving the competition issue. The Fortune 500 are in business to make money. Any social issues they involve themselves in go to their making money. That is the alpha and the omega of it. Kirk -Original Message- From: Harmon Seaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 6:07 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 04:26:16AM -, motie_d wrote: I'm hesitant to jump into the middle of a hot debate, but IMHO the reason Cummins doesn't (not can't) build better Diesel engines, is the same reason Mercedes VW etc. won't/don't sell them here. Very poor fuel! Yes -- but it's the US auto industry, working hand and glove with Big Oil, who has shot down attempts to clean up diesel fuel. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy -- because we know if Detroit started demanding cleaner fuel, it would be happen quickly, but we also know the incestuous relationship there where the oil companies help the auto companies fight off milage requirements and then they return the favor via the clean fuel issue. A provocative thought...Who is really more technically advanced? The engine builders that can only use highly refined European fuels, or the ones who can run on the junk fuel we have in the US? Are we maybe comparing Apples and Oranges? It's not only who is more advanced, but who is more responsible. Let's face it, the US auto industry has built junk for decades. Think about it -- isn't it much easier to build a a low-efficiency engine that burns low quality fuel and gets low milage than to design a hi-tech engine that takes advantage of better fuel? Would it be a fair comparison to run a European engine on our junk fuel, and an American engine on European fuel? Which manufacturers will willingly provide warranty service for their engine if such a test were to be scheduled? My understanding is that the European (and Japanese) engines don't have that much problem running on our fuel, they just can't meet emission tests when they do, and why should they be expected to? Both industry and gov't knew decades ago that fuels needed to be cleaned up -- what are they waiting for? It should have been mandated 20 years ago. Instead we see the EPA blocking small biodiesel production -- what a sick joke. High sulfur fuel and coal is responsible for acid rain, we've known this for at least 40 years -- why is it still being burned and clean fuels being stonewalled? Pretty sick. I think we need much tighter controls on the trucking industry all across the board -- both in air pollution and noise pollution, why should they be exempt? Same with tractors and construction equipment and boats and planes. For some time now I've been thinking of starting a website to solicit funds for a class action lawsuit against Harley-Davidson for building an unsafe product - unsafe in that they violate all motor vehcle muffler laws right out of the showroom. It would be a pretty easy case to win, and the funds generated could then be used to hit all the other manufacturers of noisy machines. Back in '62 a friend of mine bought a brand new BMW motorcycle. It was so quiet you literally couldn't tell if it was running unless you put your hand on it or looked at the tach. It totally amazed those of us who grew up with Harley's (my first bike was a '47 Harley, btw). There's just no excuse for all those noisy, smoke belching machines -- the technolgy to build better stuff has been around for a long time -- why is US industry dragging it's feet? I think it's more a matter of a cowboy attitude than anything else -- the macho I'll do what I want and to hell with everybody else attitude we see so prevalent in US foreign policy and everything else. I was out fishing the other night and some asshole in a *huge* inboard boat with dual V8 engines and absolutely no mufflers was cruising up and down the river. What I would have given for a torpedo! -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
It seems the whole of US manufacturing is blatantly unintelligent, at times vigorously so. They seemed focused on partnerships and friend ships like its a high school popularity contest! I think I should have to disagree about the loud pipes on bikes though. We know that 4 out of 5 motorcycle accidents are the cars fault. Cars notice bikes with loud pipes. I understand that loud pipes save lives. Would you say safety would allow loud pipes on bikes? No reason, and good reason not to, on motor boats, i would guess I'm hesitant to jump into the middle of a hot debate, but IMHO the reason Cummins doesn't (not can't) build better Diesel engines, is the same reason Mercedes VW etc. won't/don't sell them here. Very poor fuel! Yes -- but it's the US auto industry, working hand and glove with Big Oil, who has shot down attempts to clean up diesel fuel. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy -- because we know if Detroit started demanding cleaner fuel, it would be happen quickly, but we also know the incestuous relationship there where the oil companies help the auto companies fight off milage requirements and then they return the favor via the clean fuel issue. A provocative thought...Who is really more technically advanced? The engine builders that can only use highly refined European fuels, or the ones who can run on the junk fuel we have in the US? Are we maybe comparing Apples and Oranges? It's not only who is more advanced, but who is more responsible. Let's face it, the US auto industry has built junk for decades. Think about it -- isn't it much easier to build a a low-efficiency engine that burns low quality fuel and gets low milage than to design a hi-tech engine that takes advantage of better fuel? Would it be a fair comparison to run a European engine on our junk fuel, and an American engine on European fuel? Which manufacturers will willingly provide warranty service for their engine if such a test were to be scheduled? My understanding is that the European (and Japanese) engines don't have that much problem running on our fuel, they just can't meet emission tests when they do, and why should they be expected to? Both industry and gov't knew decades ago that fuels needed to be cleaned up -- what are they waiting for? It should have been mandated 20 years ago. Instead we see the EPA blocking small biodiesel production -- what a sick joke. High sulfur fuel and coal is responsible for acid rain, we've known this for at least 40 years -- why is it still being burned and clean fuels being stonewalled? Pretty sick. I think we need much tighter controls on the trucking industry all across the board -- both in air pollution and noise pollution, why should they be exempt? Same with tractors and construction equipment and boats and planes. For some time now I've been thinking of starting a website to solicit funds for a class action lawsuit against Harley-Davidson for building an unsafe product - unsafe in that they violate all motor vehcle muffler laws right out of the showroom. It would be a pretty easy case to win, and the funds generated could then be used to hit all the other manufacturers of noisy machines. Back in '62 a friend of mine bought a brand new BMW motorcycle. It was so quiet you literally couldn't tell if it was running unless you put your hand on it or looked at the tach. It totally amazed those of us who grew up with Harley's (my first bike was a '47 Harley, btw). There's just no excuse for all those noisy, smoke belching machines -- the technolgy to build better stuff has been around for a long time -- why is US industry dragging it's feet? I think it's more a matter of a cowboy attitude than anything else -- the macho I'll do what I want and to hell with everybody else attitude we see so prevalent in US foreign policy and everything else. I was out fishing the other night and some asshole in a *huge* inboard boat with dual V8 engines and absolutely no mufflers was cruising up and down the river. What I would have given for a torpedo! -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
- Original Message - From: Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 06:07 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks I was out fishing the other night and some asshole in a *huge* inboard boat with dual V8 engines and absolutely no mufflers was cruising up and down the river. What I would have given for a torpedo! A snag would have worked better, just tow it out and leave it, he would have never seen it, until after the fact.;-) Greg H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
Yes, it's definitely part of their market strategy. On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 01:25:53PM -0600, kirk wrote: It also keeps European mfg out of their backyard thereby solving the competition issue. The Fortune 500 are in business to make money. Any social issues they involve themselves in go to their making money. That is the alpha and the omega of it. Kirk -Original Message- From: Harmon Seaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 6:07 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 04:26:16AM -, motie_d wrote: I'm hesitant to jump into the middle of a hot debate, but IMHO the reason Cummins doesn't (not can't) build better Diesel engines, is the same reason Mercedes VW etc. won't/don't sell them here. Very poor fuel! Yes -- but it's the US auto industry, working hand and glove with Big Oil, who has shot down attempts to clean up diesel fuel. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy -- because we know if Detroit started demanding cleaner fuel, it would be happen quickly, but we also know the incestuous relationship there where the oil companies help the auto companies fight off milage requirements and then they return the favor via the clean fuel issue. A provocative thought...Who is really more technically advanced? The engine builders that can only use highly refined European fuels, or the ones who can run on the junk fuel we have in the US? Are we maybe comparing Apples and Oranges? It's not only who is more advanced, but who is more responsible. Let's face it, the US auto industry has built junk for decades. Think about it -- isn't it much easier to build a a low-efficiency engine that burns low quality fuel and gets low milage than to design a hi-tech engine that takes advantage of better fuel? Would it be a fair comparison to run a European engine on our junk fuel, and an American engine on European fuel? Which manufacturers will willingly provide warranty service for their engine if such a test were to be scheduled? My understanding is that the European (and Japanese) engines don't have that much problem running on our fuel, they just can't meet emission tests when they do, and why should they be expected to? Both industry and gov't knew decades ago that fuels needed to be cleaned up -- what are they waiting for? It should have been mandated 20 years ago. Instead we see the EPA blocking small biodiesel production -- what a sick joke. High sulfur fuel and coal is responsible for acid rain, we've known this for at least 40 years -- why is it still being burned and clean fuels being stonewalled? Pretty sick. I think we need much tighter controls on the trucking industry all across the board -- both in air pollution and noise pollution, why should they be exempt? Same with tractors and construction equipment and boats and planes. For some time now I've been thinking of starting a website to solicit funds for a class action lawsuit against Harley-Davidson for building an unsafe product - unsafe in that they violate all motor vehcle muffler laws right out of the showroom. It would be a pretty easy case to win, and the funds generated could then be used to hit all the other manufacturers of noisy machines. Back in '62 a friend of mine bought a brand new BMW motorcycle. It was so quiet you literally couldn't tell if it was running unless you put your hand on it or looked at the tach. It totally amazed those of us who grew up with Harley's (my first bike was a '47 Harley, btw). There's just no excuse for all those noisy, smoke belching machines -- the technolgy to build better stuff has been around for a long time -- why is US industry dragging it's feet? I think it's more a matter of a cowboy attitude than anything else -- the macho I'll do what I want and to hell with everybody else attitude we see so prevalent in US foreign policy and everything else. I was out fishing the other night and some asshole in a *huge* inboard boat with dual V8 engines and absolutely no mufflers was cruising up and down the river. What I would have given for a torpedo! -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.363
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 07:55:11PM +, Eric Ruttan wrote: It seems the whole of US manufacturing is blatantly unintelligent, at times vigorously so. They seemed focused on partnerships and friend ships like its a high school popularity contest! I think I should have to disagree about the loud pipes on bikes though. We know that 4 out of 5 motorcycle accidents are the cars fault. Cars notice bikes with loud pipes. I understand that loud pipes save lives. Would you say safety would allow loud pipes on bikes? Definitely not, in fact I think we should have open season, shoot on sight on loud bikes. Same with loud car stereos and boomboxes. Or at least an instant $200 ticket -- if you can hear the vehicle or stereo from 10' away, nail 'em. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
