Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

I prefer "\" as the consistent escape character in Swift. It's used in many programming languages and (I find it) easy to skim over. - David > On 23 Jun 2016, at 22:21, James Hillhouse via swift-evolution > wrote: > > I’m going to register a -1 on this proposal. I

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

I’m going to register a -1 on this proposal. I appreciate the work that went into it, but I just don’t think any advantages for the developer community as a whole weight enough to warrant the change. > On Jun 23, 2016, at 4:41 AM, Jeremy Pereira via swift-evolution >

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> On 22 Jun 2016, at 17:27, Brandon Knope wrote: > > Of course \ is not needed a lot but when it is, *it is inconvenient for > *some* people*. I am not making this up. You can cite several other users > from this very thread. That’s the point. Convenient key stroke sequences

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> Le 22 juin 2016 à 12:27, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution > a écrit : > > I really don’t understand why we are wasting everyone’s time debating this. > > Yes I think there is a correlation. Yes this is precisely why I posted the > heat map. > > Of course \ is

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> On Jun 22, 2016, at 4:19 AM, Haravikk via swift-evolution > wrote: > > The following two lines are equivalent: > > return "Value of foo is \(foo), have a nice day!" > return "Value of foo is " + foo + "have a nice day!" // Assuming foo is > a String

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

I really don’t understand why we are wasting everyone’s time debating this. Yes I think there is a correlation. Yes this is precisely why I posted the heat map. Of course \ is not needed a lot, but when it is, *it is inconvenient for *some* people*. I am not making this up. You can cite

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> On 22 Jun 2016, at 16:41, Brandon Knope wrote: > > My point was not to argue for the removal of \. My point was that there is a > measurable way to test the usability of such a key Your heat map doesn’t test the usability of a key, it tests the frequency with which it was

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> On 22 Jun 2016, at 09:39, Goffredo Marocchi via swift-evolution > wrote: > > Sorry, but can you explain why the character used to escape strings is > also the best choice to do Variable value extraction/String interpolation? > They are two different

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

My point was not to argue for the removal of \. My point was that there is a measurable way to test the usability of such a key Brandon > On Jun 22, 2016, at 11:30 AM, Jeremy Pereira > wrote: > > I find it somewhat disturbing that we are now trying to base

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> On 22.6.2016, at 1.10, Daniel Resnick via swift-evolution > wrote: > > I also disagree for the same reasons that Gwynne and Brent mentioned: I find > '\(...)' easy to read, fine to type, and consistent with other string > escaping syntax. +1 I’m using Finnish

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

I find it somewhat disturbing that we are now trying to base language design around the layout of a US English keyboard. “\” on my keyboard (British Macbook Pro Retina) is right next to the return key. It’s also much closer to the parentheses characters than $ is and (if you assume we are

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

On 22 Jun 2016, at 09:39, Goffredo Marocchi via swift-evolution wrote: > > Sorry, but can you explain why the character used to escape strings is > also the best choice to do Variable value extraction/String interpolation? > They are two different concepts.

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

I'll stick with Gwynne here. Each language has its syntax for interpolating string and as such I don't see a reason to change this. As for formatting, I agree it is an issue but we have to remember that inside \() we have code that can do pretty much everything one may need. You may even add a

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> So in a way you can think of \() as being a means of escaping from the string > entirely. I find this more logical than the idea which other languages > encourage which is that the variable is somehow embedded inside the string, > which is why I actually really like having escape do this in

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> On 22 Jun 2016, at 09:39, Goffredo Marocchi via swift-evolution > wrote: > > Sorry, but can you explain why the character used to escape strings is > also the best choice to do Variable value extraction/String interpolation? > They are two different

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

Sorry, but can you explain why the character used to escape strings is also the best choice to do Variable value extraction/String interpolation? They are two different concepts. Sent from my iPhone On 22 Jun 2016, at 09:28, Charlie Monroe via swift-evolution

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> I agree. As a user of a German keyboard, "\" is written as Alt-Shift-7 (there > isn't even a label on the keyboard, you just have to know this. The "7" key > says "7" and "/" - I'm talking about the German Mac Keyboard, the standalone > version of the Mac Mini and the Notebook Version of

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

An argument could be made that the '\' character is used to escape and when you are doing string interpolation/printing you are clearly doing an operation more similar to bash's use of '$' to extract the value of a variable than escaping. The need to logically separate escaping from parameter

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> Am 22.06.2016 um 02:11 schrieb Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution > : > > > on Tue Jun 21 2016, Brandon Knope wrote: > >> Maybe this is flawed, but I think it is hard to argue that the \ is >> easy to type when there are far more usable

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> On 21 Jun 2016, at 22:49, Gwynne Raskind via swift-evolution > wrote: > >> On Jun 21, 2016, at 15:48, Jonathan Cotton via swift-evolution >> > wrote: >> >> I'd support $() as is in use by other

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> On 22.6.2016, at 1.10, Daniel Resnick via swift-evolution > > wrote: > > I also disagree for the same reasons that Gwynne and Brent mentioned: I find > '\(...)' easy to read, fine to type, and consistent with other string >

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> On Jun 21, 2016, at 3:51 PM, Jordan Rose via swift-evolution > wrote: > > >> On Jun 21, 2016, at 15:26, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution >> > wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Daniel Resnick

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

Sent from my iPad > On Jun 21, 2016, at 5:51 PM, Jordan Rose via swift-evolution > wrote: > > >> On Jun 21, 2016, at 15:26, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution >> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Daniel Resnick via

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> On Jun 21, 2016, at 17:26, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution > wrote: > > The \( combination takes a little getting used to, but it's not absurdly > terrible. I suppose we could consider \{} or even \[] instead of \() to > alleviate the reach. \{} is kinda nice

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 7:10 PM, Kenny Wyland wrote: > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 5:07 PM, Xiaodi Wu wrote: > >> (Whoops, reply to list; also adding a reply.) >> >> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Kenny Wyland wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Jun

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

on Tue Jun 21 2016, Brandon Knope wrote: > Maybe this is flawed, but I think it is hard to argue that the \ is > easy to type when there are far more usable alternatives. While I agree with you, readability is *so* much more important than typeability that I think

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

Sent from my iPad > On Jun 21, 2016, at 8:07 PM, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution > wrote: > > (Whoops, reply to list; also adding a reply.) > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Kenny Wyland wrote: >>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 4:40 PM, Xiaodi Wu

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

(Whoops, reply to list; also adding a reply.) On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Kenny Wyland wrote: > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 4:40 PM, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Brandon Knope

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

The situation is very different on an iPad. I don't think this argument is a good enough reason either. It will differ based on locale, accessibility technology, device, personal key shortcuts, etc. l8r Sean Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 21, 2016, at 6:52 PM, Brandon Knope via

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

You're going to be holding shift for the parens anyways so it might be easier to type instead of not pressing and then pressing shift Brandon Sent from my iPad > On Jun 21, 2016, at 7:47 PM, Andrey Fidrya wrote: > > I think that introducing another escape character is not

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

I think that introducing another escape character is not a good idea. \() is consistent with \r \n etc. And I'm not sure if $ is easier to type. '\' is a single keypress and is located near Backspace & Enter. $ is SHIFT+4 and is harder to type without looking at the keyboard. Andrey > On 22

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

Unfortunately I know nothing about international keyboards. But surely someone could heat map their international keyboards? I don't want to take this to ridiculous levels, but I hope I am making somewhat of a point here. Maybe not =/ Brandon Sent from my iPad On Jun 21, 2016, at 7:38 PM,

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Brandon Knope wrote: > How can it be unpersuasive? I can *show* you that keys that are easier to > type/reach exist for a large majority of user’s. > As I pointed out, your results are flawed because there are two keys frequently reached for in

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

>> You know what *is* unusable though? Try finding the $ key on an >> international keyboard. And that, for me, is motivation in a nutshell. Swift won't always be used on OS X, where it's easy to set up Keyboard prefs to substitute (dollar) with $. I did a search for "which symbol keys appear

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

How can it be unpersuasive? I can *show* you that keys that are easier to type/reach exist for a large majority of user’s. I am not saying it is a good idea or not to replace \, but to pretend that there isn’t an inconvenience there is unfair when every other part of the language is put under

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > Actually… we can go pretty scientific on this sort of thing and heat map > keyboard usage to get a better picture of how “usable” this is. > > I pasted a file that contains seven \’s in it and

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

I’m not saying its necessarily *easy* to type, but I think its good enough to warrant the elegance of having only one escaping character instead of multiple. > On 22 Jun 2016, at 01:08, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution > wrote: > > Actually… we can go pretty

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

Actually… we can go pretty scientific on this sort of thing and heat map keyboard usage to get a better picture of how “usable” this is. I pasted a file that contains seven \’s in it and heat mapped it at https://www.patrick-wied.at/projects/heatmap-keyboard/ Even *with* several \’s throughout

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

Entirely agree. \ makes total sense as the one-and-only escaping character. I also have no trouble typing it. > On 21 Jun 2016, at 23:55, Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution > wrote: > >> I find that typing \(var) is very disruptive to my typing flow. The more I

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> On Jun 21, 2016, at 15:26, Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution > wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Daniel Resnick via swift-evolution > > wrote: > I also disagree for the same reasons that Gwynne and

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Daniel Resnick via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > I also disagree for the same reasons that Gwynne and Brent mentioned: I > find '\(...)' easy to read, fine to type, and consistent with other string > escaping syntax. > Those are persuasive

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

I also disagree for the same reasons that Gwynne and Brent mentioned: I find '\(...)' easy to read, fine to type, and consistent with other string escaping syntax. On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > > I find that typing

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> I find that typing \(var) is very disruptive to my typing flow. The more I > code in Swift, the more I like it, but every time I'm coding and then have to > hiccup while typing \ then ( causes me to be annoyed. I know, it's minor, but > it isn't a key combination that flows quickly. > > I

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

> On Jun 21, 2016, at 15:48, Jonathan Cotton via swift-evolution > wrote: > > I'd support $() as is in use by other languages, including Kotlin, as > mentioned it seems less disruptive and more inline with the tokenised > parameters that are already supported in

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

If such bike-shed repainting is under serious consideration, I’d request that the tint take into account the possibility of string formatter options being desired in the future. Outside of that, I’m just as happy with the current symbol as I would be with the proposals I’ve heard so far. -DW

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

I agree big time. It is pretty awkward to type and I completely understand the angst when having to type it! $() seems like the better option, though maybe not as nice looking as \() (maybe it is on second thought?) it is much easier to type! Brandon > On Jun 21, 2016, at 5:22 PM, Saagar

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

I really don't like \. I'd prefer just about any of the shift keys (!@#$%^&). That said, I would shut up and cope if xCode did the right thing when you were typing a \ inside "'s and just filled in the () and placed the cursor in the right spot. I guess that would upset folks that type a lot of

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

%, at least to me, suggests distant evaluation; i.e. parameter passing at the end. $ seems more like an in-place evaluation, like how bash does it. On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 2:14 PM Xiaodi Wu via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > That said, I think it's nice that \, #, $, and @

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

That said, I think it's nice that \, #, $, and @ are all used in unique scenarios. What about going a little classical with %? On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 16:10 Dave Abrahams via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > > on Tue Jun 21 2016, Kenny Wyland

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

on Tue Jun 21 2016, Kenny Wyland wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm new to the list and I just searched through the archives as best I > could to see if someone else had already brought this up, but I didn't find > anything. Forgive me if this horse has been beaten. > > I find

Re: [swift-evolution] Thoughts on replacing \() with $() or some other symbol

I'd support $() as is in use by other languages, including Kotlin, as mentioned it seems less disruptive and more inline with the tokenised parameters that are already supported in closures. > On 21 Jun 2016, at 21:43, Kenny Wyland via swift-evolution > wrote: > >