Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Charles Srstka via swift-evolution]

> On Mar 20, 2017, at 11:39 AM, Jon Shier via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
>   So when is this transition happening? The sooner the better, as Mail 
> can’t really handle threads with large messages, like the recent evolution 
> threads about Foundation serialization and decoding. It just stops rendering 
> messages.

Huh, I figured I was the only one that happened to since the Radar I opened on 
that actually didn’t get marked as a duplicate (rdar://31137438 
). For me, it was worse than you describe; once I clicked on 
that thread, Mail would stop rendering messages from *any* thread, not just 
that one, and basically became non-functional until I quit the app and 
restarted it. The thread was quite the land mine, and I will admit to 
occasionally using some… colorful language after accidentally clicking on it.

Charles

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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jon Shier via swift-evolution]

Sorry, didn’t see the other threads about this. Sooner is better but I’m glad 
to know it’s at least planned.



Jon

> On Mar 20, 2017, at 12:39 PM, Jon Shier  wrote:
> 
>   So when is this transition happening? The sooner the better, as Mail 
> can’t really handle threads with large messages, like the recent evolution 
> threads about Foundation serialization and decoding. It just stops rendering 
> messages. Discourse would help a lot for these sorts of discussions.
> 
> 
> 
> Jon
> 
>> On Feb 22, 2017, at 3:18 PM, Gavin Eadie via swift-evolution 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> I've been participating on email lists and forums for forty-ish years and 
>> this dichotomy has been an ever present cloud hanging over that activity, 
>> sometimes, sadly, to the extent that the list-v-forum debate has swamped the 
>> desired topic of conversation .. I've seen it reach language-war proportions.
>> 
>> I'll express my ignorance before I go further .. I have not tracked the 
>> progress of recent (typically web-based) computer aided communications 
>> products so don't bite my head off .. what follows is a position I've held 
>> for a long time, a plea for a product that may well exist now.
>> 
>> I'm a big 'delayed binding' fan which, in this context, could mean 
>> separating the storage of the content from the display of the content.  
>> Surely there are stores that can be accessed by IMAP (for those that want 
>> the 'mailing list' experience and the Eudora interface), and by other 
>> methods SQL, REST, JSON (for those who want a more expressive web-app 
>> experience)?
>> 
>> This would seem to be in the same spirit of Markdown .. expressive when 
>> rendered, but quite readable in its raw form.
>> 
>> I'm sure you get the idea .. doesn't any such thing exist?
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Lane Schwartz via swift-users 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> Is there a plan to enable an integrated mailing list functionality so that 
>> those of us who prefer that modality can continue to participate via email? 
>> Other forum software that I've been asked to use in the past (sorry, I can't 
>> remember the name) had this functionality, and it made a huge difference for 
>> me.
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Ted kremenek via swift-users 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> [...] Specifically, there are those who really value using email for 
>> participation on swift-evolution and swift-users, and the goal is to get the 
>> forum setup to allow those people to continue to feel effective when using 
>> email for discussions on these "lists".
>> ___
>> swift-evolution mailing list
>> swift-evolution@swift.org 
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> 

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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jon Shier via swift-evolution]

So when is this transition happening? The sooner the better, as Mail 
can’t really handle threads with large messages, like the recent evolution 
threads about Foundation serialization and decoding. It just stops rendering 
messages. Discourse would help a lot for these sorts of discussions.



Jon

> On Feb 22, 2017, at 3:18 PM, Gavin Eadie via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I've been participating on email lists and forums for forty-ish years and 
> this dichotomy has been an ever present cloud hanging over that activity, 
> sometimes, sadly, to the extent that the list-v-forum debate has swamped the 
> desired topic of conversation .. I've seen it reach language-war proportions.
> 
> I'll express my ignorance before I go further .. I have not tracked the 
> progress of recent (typically web-based) computer aided communications 
> products so don't bite my head off .. what follows is a position I've held 
> for a long time, a plea for a product that may well exist now.
> 
> I'm a big 'delayed binding' fan which, in this context, could mean separating 
> the storage of the content from the display of the content.  Surely there are 
> stores that can be accessed by IMAP (for those that want the 'mailing list' 
> experience and the Eudora interface), and by other methods SQL, REST, JSON 
> (for those who want a more expressive web-app experience)?
> 
> This would seem to be in the same spirit of Markdown .. expressive when 
> rendered, but quite readable in its raw form.
> 
> I'm sure you get the idea .. doesn't any such thing exist?
> 
> 
> On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Lane Schwartz via swift-users 
> > wrote:
> 
> Is there a plan to enable an integrated mailing list functionality so that 
> those of us who prefer that modality can continue to participate via email? 
> Other forum software that I've been asked to use in the past (sorry, I can't 
> remember the name) had this functionality, and it made a huge difference for 
> me.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Ted kremenek via swift-users 
> > wrote:
> 
> [...] Specifically, there are those who really value using email for 
> participation on swift-evolution and swift-users, and the goal is to get the 
> forum setup to allow those people to continue to feel effective when using 
> email for discussions on these "lists".
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Gavin Eadie via swift-evolution]

I've been participating on email lists and forums for forty-ish years and
this dichotomy has been an ever present cloud hanging over that activity,
sometimes, sadly, to the extent that the list-v-forum debate has swamped
the desired topic of conversation .. I've seen it reach language-war
proportions.

I'll express my ignorance before I go further .. I have not tracked the
progress of recent (typically web-based) computer aided communications
products so don't bite my head off .. what follows is a position I've held
for a long time, a plea for a product that may well exist now.

I'm a big 'delayed binding' fan which, in this context, could mean
separating the storage of the content from the display of the content.
Surely there are stores that can be accessed by IMAP (for those that want
the 'mailing list' experience and the Eudora interface), and by other
methods SQL, REST, JSON (for those who want a more expressive web-app
experience)?

This would seem to be in the same spirit of Markdown .. expressive when
rendered, but quite readable in its raw form.

I'm sure you get the idea .. doesn't any such thing exist?


On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Lane Schwartz via swift-users <
swift-us...@swift.org> wrote:

>
> Is there a plan to enable an integrated mailing list functionality so that
> those of us who prefer that modality can continue to participate via email?
> Other forum software that I've been asked to use in the past (sorry, I
> can't remember the name) had this functionality, and it made a huge
> difference for me.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Ted kremenek via swift-users <
> swift-us...@swift.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> [...] Specifically, there are those who really value using email for
>> participation on swift-evolution and swift-users, and the goal is to get
>> the forum setup to allow those people to continue to feel effective when
>> using email for discussions on these "lists".
>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Dimitri Racordon via swift-evolution]

It misses most of the features for which Discourse emerged in the first place. 
There are no categories, no tags, the searching tool is quite primitive and the 
quotation look is actually worse than in an email client.

Sorry but for me this is clearly a lesser experience than Discourse.

On 18 Feb 2017, at 12:39, Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution 
> wrote:

This looks way better then Discourse. +1 from me.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Jan Neumüller
--
GPG/PGP-Key: http://www.slayers.de/transfer/Jan_GPG_pub.asc

On 17 Feb 2017, at 21:45, Jose Cheyo Jimenez via swift-users 
> wrote:

Hi Ted,

Today I learned about https://esdiscuss.org/ which is like an archiver viewer 
for disc...@mozilla.org pipermail mailing list

All their code is at  https://github.com/esdiscuss

This still preserves pipermail as the one source of truth but it allows better 
searching and visibility.

There is even a reply button which opens up a mail client presumably the 
correct headers.

Thanks!


On Feb 9, 2017, at 5:18 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users 
> wrote:


On Feb 9, 2017, at 4:09 PM, Matthew Johnson 
> wrote:


On Feb 9, 2017, at 6:04 PM, Ted Kremenek 
> wrote:


On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:52 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users 
> wrote:

I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t realize 
it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have followed the 
proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision was being 
considered and this was our chance to offer input.

FWIW, I am not ignoring this thread.  At some point there was diminishing 
signal on the thread, and it felt like the category of opinions that had been 
voiced had been vocalized on the thread.  Looping in swift-users into that 
thread would have been a good thing to do in hindsight so more people felt like 
they had a chance to participate.  Based on what I am seeing in reaction to 
this decision, however, I’m not seeing much new signal.

Just to add to this point — new insights on this topic are welcome, and will be 
paid attention to.  The decision to change to a forum is because that was 
evaluated as being the best thing for the community, based on the range of 
opinions provided and the tradeoffs made.  If there is something important that 
was missed, obviously that is not going to be ignored.  We want to do the right 
thing.  So far I still feel that moving to a forum software is the right 
choice, but I’d like to do that in a way that allows people to still 
participate effectively via email.

Is there any way to have a trial run so we can evaluate the email experience of 
using the forum software before we make the final switch?  I agree that this 
sounds like the right direction, but it’s hard to know what the email 
experience will really be like until we give it a try for a week or so.

I need to formalize a plan, but yes I’d like to trial this somehow.  Nate Cook 
created a staged installation of Discourse when the thread on swift-evolution 
was happening and there was some useful telemetry out of that experiment (such 
as how rich text email interacted with doing inline replies).  Moving to 
Discourse (or some alternate forum software if we decide Discourse is not a 
fit) would be a staged thing.  The main question to me is how do we do a 
meaningful trial without actually doing the real discussions in the forum 
(while the mailing lists are still running).
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution]

This looks way better then Discourse. +1 from me.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Jan Neumüller
-- 
GPG/PGP-Key: http://www.slayers.de/transfer/Jan_GPG_pub.asc

> On 17 Feb 2017, at 21:45, Jose Cheyo Jimenez via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Ted, 
> 
> Today I learned about https://esdiscuss.org/  which 
> is like an archiver viewer for disc...@mozilla.org 
>  pipermail mailing list 
> 
> All their code is at  https://github.com/esdiscuss 
> 
> 
> This still preserves pipermail as the one source of truth but it allows 
> better searching and visibility.
> 
> There is even a reply button which opens up a mail client presumably the 
> correct headers. 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 5:18 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 4:09 PM, Matthew Johnson >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On Feb 9, 2017, at 6:04 PM, Ted Kremenek > wrote:
 
 
> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:52 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users 
> > wrote:
> 
>> I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t 
>> realize it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have 
>> followed the proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a 
>> decision was being considered and this was our chance to offer input.  
> 
> FWIW, I am not ignoring this thread.  At some point there was diminishing 
> signal on the thread, and it felt like the category of opinions that had 
> been voiced had been vocalized on the thread.  Looping in swift-users 
> into that thread would have been a good thing to do in hindsight so more 
> people felt like they had a chance to participate.  Based on what I am 
> seeing in reaction to this decision, however, I’m not seeing much new 
> signal.
 
 Just to add to this point — new insights on this topic are welcome, and 
 will be paid attention to.  The decision to change to a forum is because 
 that was evaluated as being the best thing for the community, based on the 
 range of opinions provided and the tradeoffs made.  If there is something 
 important that was missed, obviously that is not going to be ignored.  We 
 want to do the right thing.  So far I still feel that moving to a forum 
 software is the right choice, but I’d like to do that in a way that allows 
 people to still participate effectively via email.
>>> 
>>> Is there any way to have a trial run so we can evaluate the email 
>>> experience of using the forum software before we make the final switch?  I 
>>> agree that this sounds like the right direction, but it’s hard to know what 
>>> the email experience will really be like until we give it a try for a week 
>>> or so.
>> 
>> I need to formalize a plan, but yes I’d like to trial this somehow.  Nate 
>> Cook created a staged installation of Discourse when the thread on 
>> swift-evolution was happening and there was some useful telemetry out of 
>> that experiment (such as how rich text email interacted with doing inline 
>> replies).  Moving to Discourse (or some alternate forum software if we 
>> decide Discourse is not a fit) would be a staged thing.  The main question 
>> to me is how do we do a meaningful trial without actually doing the real 
>> discussions in the forum (while the mailing lists are still running).
>> ___
>> swift-users mailing list
>> swift-us...@swift.org 
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users 
>> 
> ___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Lane Schwartz via swift-evolution]

Hi all,

I'm sure there are good reasons for this switch. Personally, I strongly
prefer email lists to forums.

This move will make it harder for me to participate in future discussions
and I will be less inclined to take the effort to sign into a forum do so.

Is there a plan to enable an integrated mailing list functionality so that
those of us who prefer that modality can continue to participate via email?
Other forum software that I've been asked to use in the past (sorry, I
can't remember the name) had this functionality, and it made a huge
difference for me.

Thanks,
Lane


On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Ted kremenek via swift-users <
swift-us...@swift.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> There was a long thread on swift-evolution about whether we should use
> modern forum software — like Discourse — as an alternative to the mailing
> lists we have now.  After a long discussion, the Core Team has decided to
> move swift-evolution and swift-users to Discourse.
>
> There are tradeoffs to moving to a forum.  The main advantages are:
>
> - Easy for people to participate without subscribing to the entire mailing
> list, as well as no need to provide email address to participate.  A lot of
> people have voiced concern that they feel resistance to participate because
> of needing to subscribe to a mailing list.
>
> - Consistent affordances and rendering of content, including Markdown
> support.  This is really useful for having technical discussions.
>
> - Better searching of topics, archiving, etc.
>
> - More tools for moderation.
>
> - Topic cross-referencing, and consistent organization of topics instead
> of whatever threading support a mail client provides (which is
> inconsistent).
>
> I also want to consider moving the -dev lists to the same forum setup as
> well; but that will be a separate conversation on those lists.
>
> A rollout plan has not been figured out.  People are busy and there are
> logistics to figure out.  I will be engaging a handful of members from the
> community to help with the transition.  Specifically, there are those who
> really value using email for participation on swift-evolution and
> swift-users, and the goal is to get the forum setup to allow those people
> to continue to feel effective when using email for discussions on these
> "lists".
>
> More details will be announced as they get figured out, but I felt it was
> important to let the community know about this direction.
>
> Ted
>
>
>
>
> ___
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>



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is that it made it possible to go elsewhere.
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[David Sweeris via swift-evolution]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 19, 2017, at 13:41, Lane Schwartz via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm sure there are good reasons for this switch. Personally, I strongly 
> prefer email lists to forums. 
> 
> This move will make it harder for me to participate in future discussions and 
> I will be less inclined to take the effort to sign into a forum do so.
> 
> Is there a plan to enable an integrated mailing list functionality so that 
> those of us who prefer that modality can continue to participate via email? 
> Other forum software that I've been asked to use in the past (sorry, I can't 
> remember the name) had this functionality, and it made a huge difference for 
> me.

AFAIK, the plan is to not switch unless the mailing list functionality can be 
kept.

(I'm not an official source or anything, that's just the impression I got)

- Dave Sweeris 


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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jose Cheyo Jimenez via swift-evolution]

Hi Ted, 

Today I learned about https://esdiscuss.org/  which is 
like an archiver viewer for disc...@mozilla.org pipermail mailing list 

All their code is at  https://github.com/esdiscuss 


This still preserves pipermail as the one source of truth but it allows better 
searching and visibility.

There is even a reply button which opens up a mail client presumably the 
correct headers. 

Thanks!


> On Feb 9, 2017, at 5:18 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 4:09 PM, Matthew Johnson > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 6:04 PM, Ted Kremenek >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:52 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users 
 > wrote:
 
> I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t 
> realize it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have 
> followed the proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision 
> was being considered and this was our chance to offer input.  
 
 FWIW, I am not ignoring this thread.  At some point there was diminishing 
 signal on the thread, and it felt like the category of opinions that had 
 been voiced had been vocalized on the thread.  Looping in swift-users into 
 that thread would have been a good thing to do in hindsight so more people 
 felt like they had a chance to participate.  Based on what I am seeing in 
 reaction to this decision, however, I’m not seeing much new signal.
>>> 
>>> Just to add to this point — new insights on this topic are welcome, and 
>>> will be paid attention to.  The decision to change to a forum is because 
>>> that was evaluated as being the best thing for the community, based on the 
>>> range of opinions provided and the tradeoffs made.  If there is something 
>>> important that was missed, obviously that is not going to be ignored.  We 
>>> want to do the right thing.  So far I still feel that moving to a forum 
>>> software is the right choice, but I’d like to do that in a way that allows 
>>> people to still participate effectively via email.
>> 
>> Is there any way to have a trial run so we can evaluate the email experience 
>> of using the forum software before we make the final switch?  I agree that 
>> this sounds like the right direction, but it’s hard to know what the email 
>> experience will really be like until we give it a try for a week or so.
> 
> I need to formalize a plan, but yes I’d like to trial this somehow.  Nate 
> Cook created a staged installation of Discourse when the thread on 
> swift-evolution was happening and there was some useful telemetry out of that 
> experiment (such as how rich text email interacted with doing inline 
> replies).  Moving to Discourse (or some alternate forum software if we decide 
> Discourse is not a fit) would be a staged thing.  The main question to me is 
> how do we do a meaningful trial without actually doing the real discussions 
> in the forum (while the mailing lists are still running).
> ___
> swift-users mailing list
> swift-us...@swift.org 
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users 
> 
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution]

That’s the other side of the coin, but it does not prevent you from putting 
anything you’d like to as your profile picture. The point I’m trying to make is 
that I don’t think anyone wants to moderate such content, but that’s only a 
personal preference of mine. ;)



-- 
Adrian Zubarev
Sent with Airmail

Am 15. Februar 2017 um 13:30:53, Brent Royal-Gordon (br...@architechies.com) 
schrieb:

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 6:17 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:  
>  
> Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from 
> the forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of 
> annotation (e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that 
> does not contribute to anything at all.  

Personally, in mediums which offer profile pictures, I usually recognize people 
by profile picture, not by name. The more you can communicate without reading, 
the better.  

--  
Brent Royal-Gordon  
Architechies  

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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 6:17 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from 
> the forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of 
> annotation (e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that 
> does not contribute to anything at all.

Personally, in mediums which offer profile pictures, I usually recognize people 
by profile picture, not by name. The more you can communicate without reading, 
the better.

-- 
Brent Royal-Gordon
Architechies

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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Robert Widmann via swift-evolution]

 
~Robert Widmann

2017/02/10 3:35、Tino Heth via swift-evolution  
のメッセージ:

> 
>> Easy explained - The problem rises indeed not from the added features but 
>> from the fp group that imposes it’s usage in the Standard libraries and “the 
>> swifty way”. I like many features of Swift (or I wouldn’t be here) but I 
>> don’t want to live in Haskel world. And for some reason these guys become 
>> more and more influential in the community.
> 
> 
> I personally see functional programming as a useful tool that avoids some 
> hard problems, but I have to agree that there is an unhealthy hype about it.
> It is quite common among developers to overuse "new" (fp itself is quite old) 
> toys, and that's ok ― but there are definitely some people who are pushing 
> hard against established concepts like OO, in the deep belief their opinion 
> is the only truth, and that everything else should be abolished.
> I think it's bad for the spirit of the community when members think that way, 
> and even state that those who don't agree with their personal interpretation 
> about what's "swifty" should leave.
> 

This part is shocking to me.  I've been trying to follow this list as best I 
can, and I can't think of a single instance of somebody being asked to leave 
the discussion because they didn't agree with some FP zealotry.  I could be 
wrong, but that's certainly not the kind of community that we should have, and 
you should raise this with the powers that be when you see it.  We should be 
able to disagree but always with the utmost respect for each other's 
experiences.

> That's one reason I don't like the adjective "swifty", but afaics, those who 
> actually decide about the future of Swift have no plans to encourage certain 
> styles by crippling the alternatives.
> 
> Imho the goal should be improvement for everyone:
> Those who like fp, those who like POP, those who like OO… and, of course, for 
> those who like mailing list, as well as for those who hate them.
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution]

Easy explained - The problem rises indeed not from the added features but from 
the fp group that imposes it’s usage in the Standard libraries and “the swifty 
way”. I like many features of Swift (or I wouldn’t be here) but I don’t want to 
live in Haskel world. And for some reason these guys become more and more 
influential in the community.

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 19:30, mshea...@me.com wrote:
> 
> I have a simple question along this line: How does expanding the capabilities 
> of Swift detract or impair its use in a fully OO manner? From what I have 
> seen, if you want to use it in a strictly OO manner, great! If you want to 
> use it in a strictly functional manner, no problem. If you want to use it in 
> hybrid mode, go for it.
> 
> Giving developers the flexibility to code in the manner they are most 
> comfortable with can only improve creativity and productivity. It also 
> improves the appeal of the language to others.
> 
> Unless, of course, I am missing something here.
> 
> On Feb 9, 2017, 1:09 PM -0500, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
> , wrote:
>> This is just for explanation. I have given up for the content, the world 
>> does move in this direction and I can’t stop it.
>> 
>>> On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> @Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and 
>>> derogatory to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting 
>>> those things you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for 
>>> you to reflect your language:
>>> 
>>> "I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I 
>>> hate ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today 
>>> ’s standards are a bag 
>>> of pain“, "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, 
>>> add lots of other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, 
>>> "todays absolutely useless crap“, …
>> 
>> FP: I think many coders hate it with a passion, a fact fans of fp don’t 
>> generally like. For me it’s the total brain breaking “logic” behind FP and 
>> lambda calculus. I started programming with assembly on mos6502 and  took 
>> most languages since then. There is one family I never got my brain wrapped 
>> around it as it works against the complete working of my brain: functional 
>> programming.
>> 
>> And yes I think the push for more fp elements made Swift a worse language. 
>> How is that an attack?
>> 
>> How should I call stuff that induces eye strain and headaches from usage? 
>> Todays modern web technics most often lead to imo totally bad websites that 
>> are a clearly worse then most sites before the web 2.0 hype. Sorry if I am 
>> to direct as a german but dancing around topics is a waste of time.
>> 
>> 
>>> Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct 
>>>  of the Swift Community. 
>>> Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions rationally 
>>> instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that you don’t 
>>> like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in general. But 
>>> please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think it is so in 
>>> detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes to the 
>>> wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation are 
>>> not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything from 
>>> that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, no 
>>> more, no less.
>> 
>> Anger? And there is no reason after gotten steamrolled by evolution on this 
>> discussion by simply NOT ASKING US (Swift-Users) and simply presented a 
>> decision? Should we be happy that a part of the community sees itself 
>> apparently as more important then the rest? Of course I’m angry after such 
>> actions - who wouldn’t?
>> 
>> 
>>> @Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that 
>>> it’s open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with 
>>> the data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party 
>>> service which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against 
>>> groups.io , GitHub Issues or any other non-open source 
>>> solution. What it also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go 
>>> for (Discourse) doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement 
>>> it ourselves, improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open 
>>> source tool that can deal with that.
>> 
>> Sadly Discourse stands under a license that makes contributing a nogo for 
>> many. As a BSD dev I NEVER would put any of my code under GPL. This is a 
>> thing we should not forget - fitting licenses.
>> 
>> Jan___
>> swift-users mailing list
>> swift-us...@swift.org

Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution]

This is just for explanation. I have given up for the content, the world does 
move in this direction and I can’t stop it.

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz  wrote:
> 
> @Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and derogatory 
> to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting those things 
> you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for you to reflect 
> your language:
> 
> "I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I hate 
> ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today 
> ’s standards are a bag 
> of pain“, "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add 
> lots of other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, 
> "todays absolutely useless crap“, …

FP: I think many coders hate it with a passion, a fact fans of fp don’t 
generally like. For me it’s the total brain breaking “logic” behind FP and 
lambda calculus. I started programming with assembly on mos6502 and  took most 
languages since then. There is one family I never got my brain wrapped around 
it as it works against the complete working of my brain: functional programming.

And yes I think the push for more fp elements made Swift a worse language. How 
is that an attack?

How should I call stuff that induces eye strain and headaches from usage? 
Todays modern web technics most often lead to imo totally bad websites that are 
a clearly worse then most sites before the web 2.0 hype. Sorry if I am to 
direct as a german but dancing around topics is a waste of time.


> Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct 
>  of the Swift Community. Let’s 
> try to stay objective and justify different opinions rationally instead of 
> personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that you don’t like FP or 
> that you don’t like how the world is changing in general. But please be aware 
> that you have to add the reason why you think it is so in detail, so we 
> understand your thinking and can overcome changes to the wrong direction. 
> Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation are not a form of 
> constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything from that kind of 
> thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, no more, no less.

Anger? And there is no reason after gotten steamrolled by evolution on this 
discussion by simply NOT ASKING US (Swift-Users) and simply presented a 
decision? Should we be happy that a part of the community sees itself 
apparently as more important then the rest? Of course I’m angry after such 
actions - who wouldn’t?


> @Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that it’s 
> open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with the 
> data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party service 
> which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against groups.io 
> , GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. 
> What it also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for 
> (Discourse) doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement it 
> ourselves, improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open 
> source tool that can deal with that.

Sadly Discourse stands under a license that makes contributing a nogo for many. 
As a BSD dev I NEVER would put any of my code under GPL. This is a thing we 
should not forget - fitting licenses.

Jan___
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Tino Heth via swift-evolution]

> Easy explained - The problem rises indeed not from the added features but 
> from the fp group that imposes it’s usage in the Standard libraries and “the 
> swifty way”. I like many features of Swift (or I wouldn’t be here) but I 
> don’t want to live in Haskel world. And for some reason these guys become 
> more and more influential in the community.


I personally see functional programming as a useful tool that avoids some hard 
problems, but I have to agree that there is an unhealthy hype about it.
It is quite common among developers to overuse "new" (fp itself is quite old) 
toys, and that's ok — but there are definitely some people who are pushing hard 
against established concepts like OO, in the deep belief their opinion is the 
only truth, and that everything else should be abolished.
I think it's bad for the spirit of the community when members think that way, 
and even state that those who don't agree with their personal interpretation 
about what's "swifty" should leave.

That's one reason I don't like the adjective "swifty", but afaics, those who 
actually decide about the future of Swift have no plans to encourage certain 
styles by crippling the alternatives.

Imho the goal should be improvement for everyone:
Those who like fp, those who like POP, those who like OO… and, of course, for 
those who like mailing list, as well as for those who hate them.___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 4:09 PM, Matthew Johnson  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 6:04 PM, Ted Kremenek > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:52 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users 
>>> > wrote:
>>> 
 I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t 
 realize it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have 
 followed the proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision 
 was being considered and this was our chance to offer input.  
>>> 
>>> FWIW, I am not ignoring this thread.  At some point there was diminishing 
>>> signal on the thread, and it felt like the category of opinions that had 
>>> been voiced had been vocalized on the thread.  Looping in swift-users into 
>>> that thread would have been a good thing to do in hindsight so more people 
>>> felt like they had a chance to participate.  Based on what I am seeing in 
>>> reaction to this decision, however, I’m not seeing much new signal.
>> 
>> Just to add to this point — new insights on this topic are welcome, and will 
>> be paid attention to.  The decision to change to a forum is because that was 
>> evaluated as being the best thing for the community, based on the range of 
>> opinions provided and the tradeoffs made.  If there is something important 
>> that was missed, obviously that is not going to be ignored.  We want to do 
>> the right thing.  So far I still feel that moving to a forum software is the 
>> right choice, but I’d like to do that in a way that allows people to still 
>> participate effectively via email.
> 
> Is there any way to have a trial run so we can evaluate the email experience 
> of using the forum software before we make the final switch?  I agree that 
> this sounds like the right direction, but it’s hard to know what the email 
> experience will really be like until we give it a try for a week or so.

I need to formalize a plan, but yes I’d like to trial this somehow.  Nate Cook 
created a staged installation of Discourse when the thread on swift-evolution 
was happening and there was some useful telemetry out of that experiment (such 
as how rich text email interacted with doing inline replies).  Moving to 
Discourse (or some alternate forum software if we decide Discourse is not a 
fit) would be a staged thing.  The main question to me is how do we do a 
meaningful trial without actually doing the real discussions in the forum 
(while the mailing lists are still running).___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:52 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
>> I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t 
>> realize it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have 
>> followed the proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision 
>> was being considered and this was our chance to offer input.  
> 
> FWIW, I am not ignoring this thread.  At some point there was diminishing 
> signal on the thread, and it felt like the category of opinions that had been 
> voiced had been vocalized on the thread.  Looping in swift-users into that 
> thread would have been a good thing to do in hindsight so more people felt 
> like they had a chance to participate.  Based on what I am seeing in reaction 
> to this decision, however, I’m not seeing much new signal.

Just to add to this point — new insights on this topic are welcome, and will be 
paid attention to.  The decision to change to a forum is because that was 
evaluated as being the best thing for the community, based on the range of 
opinions provided and the tradeoffs made.  If there is something important that 
was missed, obviously that is not going to be ignored.  We want to do the right 
thing.  So far I still feel that moving to a forum software is the right 
choice, but I’d like to do that in a way that allows people to still 
participate effectively via email.___
swift-evolution mailing list
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 9:30 AM, Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 11:16 AM, Jens Alfke via swift-users 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:41 AM, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
>>> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I would prefer http://www.fudforum.org/  that has 
>>> good mailing list support, too.
>> 
>> Well, we appear to have completely opposite opinions on UI/usability. I took 
>> a look at fudforum and yeah, to my eyes it exemplifies the awful clutter 
>> that’s been a hallmark of web forums since before PHPBB. There’s so much 
>> visual noise it’s very hard to parse or to find anything. Clearly designed 
>> by a coder with a big hammer named “”. I’m not a UI designer, but 
>> I’ve worked extensively with UI designers (I spent 15 years at Apple working 
>> on stuff like iChat and AppleScript) so I think I have some grounding in the 
>> field.
>> 
>> I do believe, though, that whatever solution swift.org  
>> switches to needs to have good email support. That way the people who hate 
>> the web UI, or who just don’t prefer to use the web for discussions, can 
>> keep using email as we do today. This is perfectly feasible to do; again, 
>> groups.io  is a good example. 
>> 
>> Here my concern is that I have not found a way to configure Discourse to 
>> make its email notifications work well as a substitute for a mailing list. I 
>> have admin privileges on a Discourse installation run by my employer, so 
>> I’ve looked through the entire admin UI for ways to improve the emails, and 
>> some of the problems don’t seem fixable by tweaking settings.
>> 
>> At this point I’m going to shut up because it sounds like the decision has 
>> been made, and I don’t want to contribute to further bike-shedding.
> 
> I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t realize 
> it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have followed the 
> proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision was being 
> considered and this was our chance to offer input.  

FWIW, I am not ignoring this thread.  At some point there was diminishing 
signal on the thread, and it felt like the category of opinions that had been 
voiced had been vocalized on the thread.  Looping in swift-users into that 
thread would have been a good thing to do in hindsight so more people felt like 
they had a chance to participate.  Based on what I am seeing in reaction to 
this decision, however, I’m not seeing much new signal.

> 
> I really like the experience of participating in the community via email.  If 
> I knew a decision was being seriously considered I would have taken a closer 
> look at Discourse and likely offered more input.  I will be disappointed if 
> the experience of participating is not at least as good as it is using email.

This opinion was also eloquently voiced on the swift-evolution thread, and FWIW 
it is one that holds weight.  I really want to strike a good balance here so we 
do what is best for the overall community.  The reality is that we are pivoting 
from one technology to another, and with a web forum naturally the prime 
experience is in that forum.  Email will likely feel “second class” to some 
degree simply because it, by design, is not the primary interaction model for 
forum software like Discourse.  That doesn’t mean the email experience has to 
be terrible.  Ideally it is good experience so that people who want to continue 
to use email for participation can continue to do so.

> 
> One of the most important reasons I like using email is that Mail offers a 
> great experience on iPhone and iPad.  I am skeptical that a web-based forum 
> could offer the same level of convenience and efficiency for keeping up with 
> the community that email provides.

Email unfortunately provides an uneven experience across clients, including the 
support for threading, what kind of content authorship affordances provided, 
and so forth.  I totally get what you are saying though, being someone who uses 
Mail in the same way.


> 
> I hope that we do find a way to configure our tool (probably Discourse) so 
> that the email experience on iPhone and iPad does not suffer.  If we can meet 
> that criteria and *also* offer the advantages of a web-based tool I will be 
> very happy.  But I think the current email experience on iPhone and iPad 
> should set a minimum criteria that any tool must meet.

This is something I’m interested in achieving as well.  There are a lot of 
tradeoffs here, and I suspect what we end up with will be tradeoffs that will 
be highly subjective from person to person.  The “does not suffer” is hard to 
qualify, at least objectively, because it likely will be *different* from what 
we have now.

> 
>> 
>> —Jens
>> 

Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Joshua Alvarado via swift-evolution]

The decision to move from the mailing list may have surprised many but the
discussion on it has been ongoing very strong. Sorry you feel like you
didn't get to voice your opinion which I believe everyone should have the
opportunity to. I think many agree that email has it's perks on iPhone and
iPad but many have advocated for Disclosure because a way to improve  the
Swift community's communication. It is very hard to please every person in
the community with each change but as a community we should support each
other in the discussions and decisions that are put forth (agreeing or
not). I believe we can find a way to get the experience with Disclosure.
Get it best for iPhone and iPad users, as well as email support and those
who want to just use Disclosure only. This may not all happen at once but
it will come as we progress.

On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution <
swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

>
> On Feb 9, 2017, at 11:16 AM, Jens Alfke via swift-users <
> swift-us...@swift.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:41 AM, Jan Neumüller via swift-users <
> swift-us...@swift.org> wrote:
>
> I would prefer http://www.fudforum.org/ that has good mailing list
> support, too.
>
>
> Well, we appear to have completely opposite opinions on UI/usability. I
> took a look at fudforum and yeah, to my eyes it exemplifies the awful
> clutter that’s been a hallmark of web forums since before PHPBB. There’s so
> much visual noise it’s very hard to parse or to find anything. Clearly
> designed by a coder with a big hammer named “”. I’m not a UI
> designer, but I’ve worked extensively with UI designers (I spent 15 years
> at Apple working on stuff like iChat and AppleScript) so I think I have
> some grounding in the field.
>
> I do believe, though, that *whatever solution swift.org
>  switches to needs to have good email support*. That
> way the people who hate the web UI, or who just don’t prefer to use the web
> for discussions, can keep using email as we do today. This is perfectly
> feasible to do; again, groups.io is a good example.
>
> Here my concern is that *I have not found a way to configure Discourse to
> make its email notifications work well as a substitute for a mailing list.*
> I have admin privileges on a Discourse installation run by my employer, so
> I’ve looked through the entire admin UI for ways to improve the emails, and
> some of the problems don’t seem fixable by tweaking settings.
>
> At this point I’m going to shut up because it sounds like the decision has
> been made, and I don’t want to contribute to further bike-shedding.
>
>
> I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t
> realize it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have
> followed the proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision
> was being considered and this was our chance to offer input.
>
> I really like the experience of participating in the community via email.
> If I knew a decision was being seriously considered I would have taken a
> closer look at Discourse and likely offered more input.  I will be
> disappointed if the experience of participating is not at least as good as
> it is using email.
>
> One of the most important reasons I like using email is that Mail offers a
> great experience on iPhone and iPad.  I am skeptical that a web-based forum
> could offer the same level of convenience and efficiency for keeping up
> with the community that email provides.
>
> I hope that we do find a way to configure our tool (probably Discourse) so
> that the email experience on iPhone and iPad does not suffer.  If we can
> meet that criteria and *also* offer the advantages of a web-based tool I
> will be very happy.  But I think the current email experience on iPhone and
> iPad should set a minimum criteria that any tool must meet.
>
>
> —Jens
> ___
> swift-users mailing list
> swift-us...@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users
>
>
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>


-- 
Joshua Alvarado
alvaradojosh...@gmail.com
___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Milos Jakovljevic via swift-evolution]

+1 for Discourse

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 14:32, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’m sorry for you, but I don’t think we’re talking in this thread about being 
> old and wearing glasses or not. My eyes aren’t the best either, but I’m not 
> complaining about that or try to make this as an argument against 
> minimalistic designs. (Coloring is a different story of its own.)
> 
> How’s that needed UI at all? It’s an ugly piece of web art compared to these 
> days standards.
> 
> What’s the problem with endless scrolling? We’re all doing that every day on 
> the internet, scrolling down to find and click on the next or # button for 
> the purpose to again being able to scroll down to click on the same button 
> over and over again. Discourse took that unnecessary click from you and 
> provides a nice side scroller to quickly jump to a specific reply you want.
> 
> Reading all your complains lets me think that it’s exactly how you would 
> think about sites like stackoverflow for example (or even the minimalistic 
> swift.org).
> 
> I’m not trying to be offensive by any means. I just criticized your choice 
> from my esthetic point of view.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Adrian Zubarev
> Sent with Airmail
> 
> Am 9. Februar 2017 um 14:07:05, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
> (swift-us...@swift.org) schrieb:
> 
>> I see NEEDED UI.
> 
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[André Videla via swift-evolution]

Lots of emotions here. 
There is something I would like to point out that I don't feel is clear enough. 

The goal of this move is to move the community forward. The way it is moving 
the community forward is by increasing the scope of people able to participate 
while allowing new capabilities for the organizers (E.g. : more powerful 
moderation tools). 

As a community we need to accept putting aside our mild annoyances in order to 
allow the community to grow in a healthy way. 

Let us celebrate  the thousand the people who will benefit from moving to a web 
based forum. 
Whether they contribute, browse or simply share it to their friends they will 
enjoy a more open and accessible platform.

Andre Videla 

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 19:30, Michael Sheaver via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have a simple question along this line: How does expanding the capabilities 
> of Swift detract or impair its use in a fully OO manner? From what I have 
> seen, if you want to use it in a strictly OO manner, great! If you want to 
> use it in a strictly functional manner, no problem. If you want to use it in 
> hybrid mode, go for it.
> 
> Giving developers the flexibility to code in the manner they are most 
> comfortable with can only improve creativity and productivity. It also 
> improves the appeal of the language to others.
> 
> Unless, of course, I am missing something here.
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2017, 1:09 PM -0500, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
>> , wrote:
>> This is just for explanation. I have given up for the content, the world 
>> does move in this direction and I can’t stop it.
>> 
>>> On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz  wrote:
>>> 
>>> @Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and 
>>> derogatory to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting 
>>> those things you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for 
>>> you to reflect your language:
>>> 
>>> "I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I 
>>> hate ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today’s standards are a bag of pain“, 
>>> "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of 
>>> other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, "todays 
>>> absolutely useless crap“, …
>> 
>> FP: I think many coders hate it with a passion, a fact fans of fp don’t 
>> generally like. For me it’s the total brain breaking “logic” behind FP and 
>> lambda calculus. I started programming with assembly on mos6502 and  took 
>> most languages since then. There is one family I never got my brain wrapped 
>> around it as it works against the complete working of my brain: functional 
>> programming.
>> 
>> And yes I think the push for more fp elements made Swift a worse language. 
>> How is that an attack?
>> 
>> How should I call stuff that induces eye strain and headaches from usage? 
>> Todays modern web technics most often lead to imo totally bad websites that 
>> are a clearly worse then most sites before the web 2.0 hype. Sorry if I am 
>> to direct as a german but dancing around topics is a waste of time.
>> 
>> 
>>> Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct of the 
>>> Swift Community. Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions 
>>> rationally instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that 
>>> you don’t like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in 
>>> general. But please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think 
>>> it is so in detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes 
>>> to the wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any 
>>> explanation are not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will 
>>> learn anything from that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing 
>>> your anger here, no more, no less.
>> 
>> Anger? And there is no reason after gotten steamrolled by evolution on this 
>> discussion by simply NOT ASKING US (Swift-Users) and simply presented a 
>> decision? Should we be happy that a part of the community sees itself 
>> apparently as more important then the rest? Of course I’m angry after such 
>> actions - who wouldn’t?
>> 
>> 
>>> @Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that 
>>> it’s open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with 
>>> the data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party 
>>> service which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against 
>>> groups.io, GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. What it 
>>> also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for (Discourse) 
>>> doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement it ourselves, 
>>> improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open source tool 
>>> that can deal with that.
>> 
>> Sadly Discourse stands under a license that makes 

Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[David Sweeris via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 09:30, Matthew Johnson via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 11:16 AM, Jens Alfke via swift-users 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:41 AM, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I would prefer http://www.fudforum.org/ that has good mailing list support, 
>>> too.
>> 
>> Well, we appear to have completely opposite opinions on UI/usability. I took 
>> a look at fudforum and yeah, to my eyes it exemplifies the awful clutter 
>> that’s been a hallmark of web forums since before PHPBB. There’s so much 
>> visual noise it’s very hard to parse or to find anything. Clearly designed 
>> by a coder with a big hammer named “”. I’m not a UI designer, but 
>> I’ve worked extensively with UI designers (I spent 15 years at Apple working 
>> on stuff like iChat and AppleScript) so I think I have some grounding in the 
>> field.
>> 
>> I do believe, though, that whatever solution swift.org switches to needs to 
>> have good email support. That way the people who hate the web UI, or who 
>> just don’t prefer to use the web for discussions, can keep using email as we 
>> do today. This is perfectly feasible to do; again, groups.io is a good 
>> example. 
>> 
>> Here my concern is that I have not found a way to configure Discourse to 
>> make its email notifications work well as a substitute for a mailing list. I 
>> have admin privileges on a Discourse installation run by my employer, so 
>> I’ve looked through the entire admin UI for ways to improve the emails, and 
>> some of the problems don’t seem fixable by tweaking settings.
>> 
>> At this point I’m going to shut up because it sounds like the decision has 
>> been made, and I don’t want to contribute to further bike-shedding.
> 
> I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t realize 
> it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have followed the 
> proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision was being 
> considered and this was our chance to offer input.  
> 
> I really like the experience of participating in the community via email.  If 
> I knew a decision was being seriously considered I would have taken a closer 
> look at Discourse and likely offered more input.  I will be disappointed if 
> the experience of participating is not at least as good as it is using email.

I'm pretty sure that Discourse's mailing list support is why so many people 
suggested it.

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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Michael Sheaver via swift-evolution]

I have a simple question along this line: How does expanding the capabilities 
of Swift detract or impair its use in a fully OO manner? From what I have seen, 
if you want to use it in a strictly OO manner, great! If you want to use it in 
a strictly functional manner, no problem. If you want to use it in hybrid mode, 
go for it.

Giving developers the flexibility to code in the manner they are most 
comfortable with can only improve creativity and productivity. It also improves 
the appeal of the language to others.

Unless, of course, I am missing something here.

On Feb 9, 2017, 1:09 PM -0500, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
, wrote:
> This is just for explanation. I have given up for the content, the world does 
> move in this direction and I can’t stop it.
>
> > On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz  wrote:
> >
> > @Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and 
> > derogatory to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting 
> > those things you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for 
> > you to reflect your language:
> >
> > "I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I 
> > hate ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today’s standards are a bag of pain“, 
> > "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of 
> > other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, "todays 
> > absolutely useless crap“, …
>
> FP: I think many coders hate it with a passion, a fact fans of fp don’t 
> generally like. For me it’s the total brain breaking “logic” behind FP and 
> lambda calculus. I started programming with assembly on mos6502 and  took 
> most languages since then. There is one family I never got my brain wrapped 
> around it as it works against the complete working of my brain: functional 
> programming.
>
> And yes I think the push for more fp elements made Swift a worse language. 
> How is that an attack?
>
> How should I call stuff that induces eye strain and headaches from usage? 
> Todays modern web technics most often lead to imo totally bad websites that 
> are a clearly worse then most sites before the web 2.0 hype. Sorry if I am to 
> direct as a german but dancing around topics is a waste of time.
>
>
> > Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct of the 
> > Swift Community. Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions 
> > rationally instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that 
> > you don’t like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in 
> > general. But please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think 
> > it is so in detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes 
> > to the wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any 
> > explanation are not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will 
> > learn anything from that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing 
> > your anger here, no more, no less.
>
> Anger? And there is no reason after gotten steamrolled by evolution on this 
> discussion by simply NOT ASKING US (Swift-Users) and simply presented a 
> decision? Should we be happy that a part of the community sees itself 
> apparently as more important then the rest? Of course I’m angry after such 
> actions - who wouldn’t?
>
>
> > @Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that 
> > it’s open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with 
> > the data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party 
> > service which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against 
> > groups.io, GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. What it 
> > also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for (Discourse) 
> > doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement it ourselves, 
> > improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open source tool 
> > that can deal with that.
>
> Sadly Discourse stands under a license that makes contributing a nogo for 
> many. As a BSD dev I NEVER would put any of my code under GPL. This is a 
> thing we should not forget - fitting licenses.
>
> Jan___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Rien via swift-evolution]

> On 09 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> @Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and derogatory 
> to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting those things 
> you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for you to reflect 
> your language:
> 
> "I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I hate 
> ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today’s standards are a bag of pain“, 
> "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of 
> other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, "todays 
> absolutely useless crap“, …
> 
> Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct of the 
> Swift Community. Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions 
> rationally instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that 
> you don’t like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in 
> general. But please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think it 
> is so in detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes to 
> the wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation 
> are not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything 
> from that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, 
> no more, no less.

I don’t think he did. He expressed his opinions rather forcefully, but we all 
tick different. He did not call anybody out specifically.
And just because somebody spend a lot of time on something does not make it 
great. And maybe they need to hear it this way to “get the message”. Sugar 
coating can do a lot of harm.

Btw: this does remind me of some of things I heard about a former -too early 
deceased- leader of apple...

Rien.


> 
> 
> @Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that it’s 
> open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with the 
> data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party service 
> which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against 
> groups.io, GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. What it also 
> means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for (Discourse) doesn’t 
> have good support for emails yet, we can implement it ourselves, improve the 
> existing support or add a bridge to another open source tool that can deal 
> with that.
> 
> -- 
> Cihat Gündüz
> 
> Am 9. Februar 2017 um 15:59:33, Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution 
> (swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:
> 
>> Well, if the community likes it so much. Have fun with it. I will leave as I 
>> have left the Developer Forums at Apple because they became unusable.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 9 Feb 2017, at 15:17, Adrian Zubarev  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The quote below made my day dear Swift friend as I might remind you that if 
>>> modern is associated with hate in your mind, then the modern programming 
>>> language called Swift would probably be a bad choice. 
>>> 
>>> 
>> I starting to think that myself. I was very active at the beginning of Swift 
>> (way before the open sourcing) but I absolutely don’t like the increasing 
>> influence of functional programming on it. I despise fp and don’t want it in 
>> Swift. If people want it that much use Haskell 8(
>>> I might remind everyone that Discourse is open sourced and therefore tweaks 
>>> are possible. If you prefer a consistent font like on swift.org, than spell 
>>> it out and help to create a corner on the web where every Swiftier feels 
>>> right at home. 
>>> 
>>> 
>> I don’t think that Discourse is salvageable but go on. But I don’t know how 
>> one could rip out this big piece of JavaScript and keep ist functional.
>>> Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from 
>>> the forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of 
>>> annotation (e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that 
>>> does not contribute to anything at all.
>>> 
>>> As Jan already said, the font (and font-size?) of the forum could match the 
>>> font from swift.org if possible. I wouldn’t mind and it’d make it a little 
>>> bit more alike.
>>> 
>>> 
>> You don’t have to care for me - Swift 4 will be the deciding step if I throw 
>> any Swift work away and return to Objective-C. The heavy functional 
>> programming push since open sourcing is so annoying and made Swift imo a 
>> worse language.
>> 
>> Jan
>> ___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 11:16 AM, Jens Alfke via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:41 AM, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> I would prefer http://www.fudforum.org/  that has 
>> good mailing list support, too.
> 
> Well, we appear to have completely opposite opinions on UI/usability. I took 
> a look at fudforum and yeah, to my eyes it exemplifies the awful clutter 
> that’s been a hallmark of web forums since before PHPBB. There’s so much 
> visual noise it’s very hard to parse or to find anything. Clearly designed by 
> a coder with a big hammer named “”. I’m not a UI designer, but I’ve 
> worked extensively with UI designers (I spent 15 years at Apple working on 
> stuff like iChat and AppleScript) so I think I have some grounding in the 
> field.
> 
> I do believe, though, that whatever solution swift.org  
> switches to needs to have good email support. That way the people who hate 
> the web UI, or who just don’t prefer to use the web for discussions, can keep 
> using email as we do today. This is perfectly feasible to do; again, 
> groups.io  is a good example. 
> 
> Here my concern is that I have not found a way to configure Discourse to make 
> its email notifications work well as a substitute for a mailing list. I have 
> admin privileges on a Discourse installation run by my employer, so I’ve 
> looked through the entire admin UI for ways to improve the emails, and some 
> of the problems don’t seem fixable by tweaking settings.
> 
> At this point I’m going to shut up because it sounds like the decision has 
> been made, and I don’t want to contribute to further bike-shedding.

I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t realize 
it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have followed the 
proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision was being 
considered and this was our chance to offer input.  

I really like the experience of participating in the community via email.  If I 
knew a decision was being seriously considered I would have taken a closer look 
at Discourse and likely offered more input.  I will be disappointed if the 
experience of participating is not at least as good as it is using email.

One of the most important reasons I like using email is that Mail offers a 
great experience on iPhone and iPad.  I am skeptical that a web-based forum 
could offer the same level of convenience and efficiency for keeping up with 
the community that email provides.

I hope that we do find a way to configure our tool (probably Discourse) so that 
the email experience on iPhone and iPad does not suffer.  If we can meet that 
criteria and *also* offer the advantages of a web-based tool I will be very 
happy.  But I think the current email experience on iPhone and iPad should set 
a minimum criteria that any tool must meet.

> 
> —Jens
> ___
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Cihat Gündüz via swift-evolution]

@Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and derogatory 
to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting those things you 
despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for you to reflect your 
language:

"I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I hate 
‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today’s standards are a bag of pain“, "crappy 
sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of other 'cool' 
sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, "todays absolutely useless 
crap“, …

Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct of the Swift 
Community. Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions 
rationally instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that you 
don’t like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in general. But 
please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think it is so in 
detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes to the wrong 
direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation are not a 
form of constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything from that kind 
of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, no more, no less.


@Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that it’s 
open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with the data 
you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party service which 
could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against groups.io, GitHub 
Issues or any other non-open source solution. What it also means is: If the 
open source tool we decided to go for (Discourse) doesn’t have good support for 
emails yet, we can implement it ourselves, improve the existing support or add 
a bridge to another open source tool that can deal with that.

-- 
Cihat Gündüz

Am 9. Februar 2017 um 15:59:33, Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution 
(swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:

Well, if the community likes it so much. Have fun with it. I will leave as I 
have left the Developer Forums at Apple because they became unusable.


On 9 Feb 2017, at 15:17, Adrian Zubarev  wrote:

The quote below made my day dear Swift friend as I might remind you that if 
modern is associated with hate in your mind, then the modern programming 
language called Swift would probably be a bad choice. 


I starting to think that myself. I was very active at the beginning of Swift 
(way before the open sourcing) but I absolutely don’t like the increasing 
influence of functional programming on it. I despise fp and don’t want it in 
Swift. If people want it that much use Haskell 8(
I might remind everyone that Discourse is open sourced and therefore tweaks are 
possible. If you prefer a consistent font like on swift.org, than spell it out 
and help to create a corner on the web where every Swiftier feels right at 
home. 


I don’t think that Discourse is salvageable but go on. But I don’t know how one 
could rip out this big piece of JavaScript and keep ist functional.
Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from the 
forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of annotation 
(e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that does not 
contribute to anything at all.

As Jan already said, the font (and font-size?) of the forum could match the 
font from swift.org if possible. I wouldn’t mind and it’d make it a little bit 
more alike.


You don’t have to care for me - Swift 4 will be the deciding step if I throw 
any Swift work away and return to Objective-C. The heavy functional programming 
push since open sourcing is so annoying and made Swift imo a worse language.

Jan
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution]

Well, if the community likes it so much. Have fun with it. I will leave as I 
have left the Developer Forums at Apple because they became unusable.


> On 9 Feb 2017, at 15:17, Adrian Zubarev  
> wrote:
> 
> The quote below made my day dear Swift friend as I might remind you that if 
> modern is associated with hate in your mind, then the modern programming 
> language called Swift would probably be a bad choice. 
> 
> 
I starting to think that myself. I was very active at the beginning of Swift 
(way before the open sourcing) but I absolutely don’t like the increasing 
influence of functional programming on it. I despise fp and don’t want it in 
Swift. If people want it that much use Haskell 8(
> I might remind everyone that Discourse is open sourced and therefore tweaks 
> are possible. If you prefer a consistent font like on swift.org 
> , than spell it out and help to create a corner on the web 
> where every Swiftier feels right at home. 
> 
> 
I don’t think that Discourse is salvageable but go on. But I don’t know how one 
could rip out this big piece of JavaScript and keep ist functional.
> Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from 
> the forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of 
> annotation (e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that 
> does not contribute to anything at all.
> 
> As Jan already said, the font (and font-size?) of the forum could match the 
> font from swift.org  if possible. I wouldn’t mind and it’d 
> make it a little bit more alike.
> 
> 
You don’t have to care for me - Swift 4 will be the deciding step if I throw 
any Swift work away and return to Objective-C. The heavy functional programming 
push since open sourcing is so annoying and made Swift imo a worse language.

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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution]

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 13:50, Adrian Zubarev  
> wrote:
> 
> That last one is horrible to even look at (that’s my personal point of view). 
> It’s packed full with unnecessary UI, which reminds me of the time when 
> html-tables ruled all over the place. Discourse has a nice minimalistic look 
> and I’m sure people that will setup the forum will tweak it to make it feel 
> more appropriate for Swift, just like the design of the evolution-page was 
> tweaked several times. 
> 
I don’t see unnecessary UI, I see NEEDED UI. Discourse is so minimalistic you 
don’t see any relevant information at all 8(

> Here is really good example of how a huge/popular topic like the current one 
> or String in Swift 4 would look like with Discourse (I picked one from Rust 
> with lots of replies): 
> https://users.rust-lang.org/t/high-order-function-with-type-parameter/3112/ 
> 
> +1 for Discourse, I think it really is the right choice.
> 
What is good at this example? I don’t see anything good there but lots of 
problems:

- very hard to see who posted a reply
- very bad readability thanks to tiny font and low contrast colors
- totally broken threading (is one really supposed to click each time on 
replies to see them?)
- lots of wasted screen space (empty space and a very narrow text area)
- cryptic stuff like this 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6a9fyuin4yyp5u8/Screenshot%202017-02-09%2014.03.20.png?dl=0
 

- endless scrolling…

This is considered GOOD today? Does any modern web trend think on older people 
and people with glasses anymore?

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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution]

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 14:32, Adrian Zubarev  
> wrote:
> 
> I’m sorry for you, but I don’t think we’re talking in this thread about being 
> old and wearing glasses or not. My eyes aren’t the best either, but I’m not 
> complaining about that or try to make this as an argument against 
> minimalistic designs. (Coloring is a different story of its own.)
> 
> 
I hate “modern” or as I call it ugly web design.

> How’s that needed UI at all? It’s an ugly piece of web art compared to these 
> days standards. 
> 
> 
Everything making functions and structure clearer is good. Today’s standards 
are a bag of pain and I never understood how such crappy sites als Facebook, 
Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of other “cool” sites are liked by 
so many. For me they are the epitome of what is wrong with todays web.

> What’s the problem with endless scrolling? We’re all doing that every day on 
> the internet, scrolling down to find and click on the next or # button for 
> the purpose to again being able to scroll down to click on the same button 
> over and over again. Discourse took that unnecessary click from you and 
> provides a nice side scroller to quickly jump to a specific reply you want.
> 
> 
I can’t stand scrolling. Pages and pageturning are much nicer to my eyes and 
mind. I always lose track in these endless scrolling nightmares.

> Reading all your complains lets me think that it’s exactly how you would 
> think about sites like stackoverflow for example (or even the minimalistic 
> swift.org ).
> 
> 
Se above - I hate both. At least swift.org  has a font in 
readable size.

For me even the old geocities chaos was nicer then todays minimalistic crap. 
But I may possible thats my age, I hate modern music and movies, too.

> I’m not trying to be offensive by any means. I just criticized your choice 
> from my esthetic point of view.
> 
> 
And I’m just frustrated at this downward spiral in useful and nice design. It’s 
like the iOS Music app  - gone from a nice and very useful app (till iOS6) to 
todays absolutely useless crap that tries to forcefeed Apple Music onto me but 
doesn’t help in efficient handling of my own music library. Luckily I could 
switch to Caesium to fix that.

Jan

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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution]

My problem with Discourse lies in its terrible ui. It  is like most modern 
social media: totally useless to find stuff and stay organized in it. It 
reminds my heavy on the terrible ui of Facebook and the redone developer forums 
at Apple that have gone from fine to utterly useless chaos. Perhaps I’m to old 
for modern web, but what are other finding great at this?

I would prefer http://www.fudforum.org/  that has 
good mailing list support, too.

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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Martin Man via swift-evolution]

Is there any reason why there needs to be a separate tool for this?

If mailing lists are no go why not just stay on GitHub and use GitHub issues 
for proposals?

Thanks,
Martin

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 08:51, Jens Alfke via swift-users  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 8, 2017, at 4:48 PM, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> May I ask why with so many great open source forums that junk Discourse got 
>> chosen? I'm very perplexed by this decision...
> 
> I’ve looked at a lot of forum software, and most of the open-source ones are 
> pretty poor* in terms of UI and usability.
> Discourse is very good as a web app, although its email integration doesn’t 
> work that well IMHO, so it’s not really a direct replacement for a mailing 
> list.
> If I were proposing something, I’d propose groups.io . 
> (Which is also not open source, sorry.)
> 
> —Jens
> 
> * I’m being diplomatic. Many of them are worse than poor. The word “wretched” 
> comes to mind.
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Karl Wagner via swift-evolution]

  
  
Happy dance! 
  
  
  

  
I've said before that I think this a good move. Hopefully it encourages more 
ad-hoc contributions - e.g. Unicode experts who have suggestions for the String 
model, Perl developers with suggestions for pattern-matching, systems 
architects with suggestions for the memory model, etc. That's what open-source 
is all about, IMO. Maybe somebody they know notices the discussion - with this 
they'll have a convenient interface to get up to speed, follow the discussion 
and chime in with their experience. I don't know if that will _actually_ happen 
or how many such developers there are, but   by lowering the barrier to 
participation   we're doing as much as we can do to encourage them.
  
  
  
 So yeah, thanks a lot!
  
  
  
 - Karl
  
  
  

  
>   
> On Feb 9, 2017 at 12:03 am,   (mailto:swift-us...@swift.org)>  wrote:
>   
>   
>   
>  Hi everyone,
>
> There was a long thread on swift-evolution about whether we should use modern 
> forum software — like Discourse — as an alternative to the mailing lists we 
> have now. After a long discussion, the Core Team has decided to move 
> swift-evolution and swift-users to Discourse.
>
> There are tradeoffs to moving to a forum. The main advantages are:
>
> - Easy for people to participate without subscribing to the entire mailing 
> list, as well as no need to provide email address to participate. A lot of 
> people have voiced concern that they feel resistance to participate because 
> of needing to subscribe to a mailing list.
>
> - Consistent affordances and rendering of content, including Markdown 
> support. This is really useful for having technical discussions.
>
> - Better searching of topics, archiving, etc.
>
> - More tools for moderation.
>
> - Topic cross-referencing, and consistent organization of topics instead of 
> whatever threading support a mail client provides (which is inconsistent).
>
> I also want to consider moving the -dev lists to the same forum setup as 
> well; but that will be a separate conversation on those lists.
>
> A rollout plan has not been figured out. People are busy and there are 
> logistics to figure out. I will be engaging a handful of members from the 
> community to help with the transition. Specifically, there are those who 
> really value using email for participation on swift-evolution and 
> swift-users, and the goal is to get the forum setup to allow those people to 
> continue to feel effective when using email for discussions on these "lists".
>
> More details will be announced as they get figured out, but I felt it was 
> important to let the community know about this direction.
>
> Ted
>
>
>
>
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution]

The quote below made my day dear Swift friend as I might remind you that if 
modern is associated with hate in your mind, then the modern programming 
language called Swift would probably be a bad choice.

I might remind everyone that Discourse is open sourced and therefore tweaks are 
possible. If you prefer a consistent font like on swift.org, than spell it out 
and help to create a corner on the web where every Swiftier feels right at home.

Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from the 
forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of annotation 
(e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that does not 
contribute to anything at all.

As Jan already said, the font (and font-size?) of the forum could match the 
font from swift.org if possible. I wouldn’t mind and it’d make it a little bit 
more alike.



-- 
Adrian Zubarev
Sent with Airmail

Am 9. Februar 2017 um 14:57:34, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
(swift-us...@swift.org) schrieb:

I hate “modern” or as I call it ugly web design.
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution]

I’m sorry for you, but I don’t think we’re talking in this thread about being 
old and wearing glasses or not. My eyes aren’t the best either, but I’m not 
complaining about that or try to make this as an argument against minimalistic 
designs. (Coloring is a different story of its own.)

How’s that needed UI at all? It’s an ugly piece of web art compared to these 
days standards.

What’s the problem with endless scrolling? We’re all doing that every day on 
the internet, scrolling down to find and click on the next or # button for the 
purpose to again being able to scroll down to click on the same button over and 
over again. Discourse took that unnecessary click from you and provides a nice 
side scroller to quickly jump to a specific reply you want.

Reading all your complains lets me think that it’s exactly how you would think 
about sites like stackoverflow for example (or even the minimalistic swift.org).

I’m not trying to be offensive by any means. I just criticized your choice from 
my esthetic point of view.



-- 
Adrian Zubarev
Sent with Airmail

Am 9. Februar 2017 um 14:07:05, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
(swift-us...@swift.org) schrieb:

I see NEEDED UI.
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution]

That last one is horrible to even look at (that’s my personal point of view). 
It’s packed full with unnecessary UI, which reminds me of the time when 
html-tables ruled all over the place. Discourse has a nice minimalistic look 
and I’m sure people that will setup the forum will tweak it to make it feel 
more appropriate for Swift, just like the design of the evolution-page was 
tweaked several times.

Here is really good example of how a huge/popular topic like the current one or 
String in Swift 4 would look like with Discourse (I picked one from Rust with 
lots of replies): 
https://users.rust-lang.org/t/high-order-function-with-type-parameter/3112/

+1 for Discourse, I think it really is the right choice.



-- 
Adrian Zubarev
Sent with Airmail

Am 9. Februar 2017 um 12:42:04, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
(swift-us...@swift.org) schrieb:

My problem with Discourse lies in its terrible ui. It  is like most modern 
social media: totally useless to find stuff and stay organized in it. It 
reminds my heavy on the terrible ui of Facebook and the redone developer forums 
at Apple that have gone from fine to utterly useless chaos. Perhaps I’m to old 
for modern web, but what are other finding great at this?

I would prefer http://www.fudforum.org/ that has good mailing list support, too.

Jan
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jens Alfke via swift-evolution]

> On Feb 8, 2017, at 4:48 PM, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> May I ask why with so many great open source forums that junk Discourse got 
> chosen? I'm very perplexed by this decision...

I’ve looked at a lot of forum software, and most of the open-source ones are 
pretty poor* in terms of UI and usability.
Discourse is very good as a web app, although its email integration doesn’t 
work that well IMHO, so it’s not really a direct replacement for a mailing list.
If I were proposing something, I’d propose groups.io . 
(Which is also not open source, sorry.)

—Jens

* I’m being diplomatic. Many of them are worse than poor. The word “wretched” 
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Re: [swift-evolution] [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Ted kremenek via swift-evolution]

Hi Jan,

There was a lot of discussion — albeit not on swift-users — and Discourse was 
the one put forward that those that were pro-forum were most advocating.  I 
actually didn't hear alternative forum software get strongly advocated.

Specific things about Discourse (which may be offered by other solutions):

- Good archiving and searching.
- Markdown support.
- Email bridging to those who still want to have a "mailing list" experience.
- Easy participation without needing to subscribe to a high-volume mailing list.

Not all of these benefits are specific to Discourse.

I'm happy to hear your thoughts, but I'd need more precise feedback than 
adjectives like "junk" to weigh in your concerns.  Specific suggestions for 
something better, and why they are better, would be great.

The key decision here is to move away from mailing lists.  Discourse so far 
seems like the best candidate put forth.

Ted


> On Feb 8, 2017, at 4:48 PM, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> May I ask why with so many great open source forums that junk Discourse got 
> chosen? I'm very perplexed by this decision...
> 
> Jan
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