Re: [Tagging] Access restrictions for shoulder lanes?

2015-02-03 Thread Colin Smale
. This is what the access:conditional tag is for. On 2015-02-03 11:15, Paul Johnson wrote: On Feb 3, 2015 4:11 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Tue Feb 3 09:36:21 2015 GMT, Colin Smale wrote: On 2015-02-03 10:20, Paul Johnson wrote: On Feb 3, 2015 3:06 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm

Re: [Tagging] Access restrictions for shoulder lanes?

2015-02-02 Thread Colin Smale
Assuming you are talking about the hard shoulder AKA emergency lane on motorways, in NL and GB it would quite simply be access=no. The only exceptions are if you break down, if you are an emergency service, or if you are instructed to by the police (or similar authority). On 2015-02-02 14:17,

Re: [Tagging] Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

2015-01-23 Thread Colin Smale
Tag namespaces already provide a kind of data structure facility. IMHO a syntax that is close to the traditional way of representing vectors of structures would be something like this: addr[1]:housenumber=1234 addr[1]:street=Main Street addr[2]:housenumber=7654 addr[2]:street=Elm Avenue All

Re: [Tagging] Boundary Relations. What's a subarea used for?

2015-01-09 Thread Colin Smale
On 2015-01-09 12:25, Dave F. wrote: I'll leave them for now, as I can work around them, but I'm still not convinced of their use or comments given by others as reasons to keep them. Out of respect to the mappers who have gone before you, isn't a valid excuse to keep data if it's

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (Obligatory vs. optional cycletracks)

2014-12-22 Thread Colin Smale
In NL I think it is similar to Germany. The definition of the sign is verplicht fietspad i.e. compulsory cycle track. When the cycle track runs adjacent to a road the intention is clear, but the sign is interestingly also used for cycle paths through the middle of the countryside with no

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*

2014-12-18 Thread Colin Smale
On 2014-12-18 14:42, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: On 17.12.2014 23:23, Colin Smale wrote: In the UK designation= is in wide usage for this. I don't know if it is typically a UK thing (it wouldn't surprise me) but local governments sometimes have the right to change their style - for example

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - admin_title=*

2014-12-17 Thread Colin Smale
In the UK designation= is in wide usage for this. I don't know if it is typically a UK thing (it wouldn't surprise me) but local governments sometimes have the right to change their style - for example a civil parish can choose autonomously to call itself a community council. It can also choose

Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores

2014-12-10 Thread Colin Smale
I agree with Greg. Many people still think it is possible to get worldwide consensus on tagging. This will never happen as long as the tags are so subjective. Check out the thread on the definitions of cafe/restaurant/fast_food for a wonderful case of what happens if the input side rules the

Re: [Tagging] Various alt_name values?

2014-11-27 Thread Colin Smale
Big +1 for that. To me, solving it from the root means formalising the use of the semicolon as a value separator, and cracking some hard nuts like how to handle a legitimate semicolon in the data itself and how to handle the quoting/escaping that that will involve. But let's do it once and

Re: [Tagging] Various alt_name values?

2014-11-27 Thread Colin Smale
in the underlying data model, will require a change to the database layout, the XML/PBF formats, and of course to numerous pieces of software. Colin On 2014-11-27 12:59, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: On 27/11/2014, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Big +1 for that. -1. On what do you

Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...

2014-11-24 Thread Colin Smale
Let's look at the entity relations in play here. Surely a club IS an organisation, not a building. The club MAY USE one or more buildings, and MAY OWN one or more buildings. A club HAS a contact address, HAS members, HAS a board etc etc. So following the rules of one object, one set of tags,

Re: [Tagging] governmental / public_administrative landuse are not commercial

2014-11-06 Thread Colin Smale
I would not expect the landuse value of the municipal bus company's HQ to change if the bus company was privatised... Only the ownership will have changed, nothing else. Actually, as the buildings are probably leased from a property company anyway, even that would stay the same. Just the

Re: [Tagging] default value for oneway

2014-08-28 Thread Colin Smale
On 2014-08-28 15:53, Dan S wrote: As Peter said, the default for services using OSM is always to assume a way is _not_ oneway unless tagged otherwise. Unless it is tagged as junction=roundabout ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org

Re: [Tagging] bridge=humpback ?

2014-08-10 Thread Colin Smale
On 2014-08-10 12:13, Никита wrote: I.e they define this tag as subtype of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_bridge [5]. I don't see any real application/use to bridge=humpback. Also, bridge=humpback does not imply covered=yes by default. It does not define routing aspects or adds any

Re: [Tagging] bridge=humpback ?

2014-08-10 Thread Colin Smale
or it is me who can drive everywhere at regular speed? This is really subjective. 2014-08-10 16:47 GMT+04:00 Yves yve...@gmail.com: There is a lot of things not of interest to the majority of users in OSM, this is why it is rich. Yves On 10 août 2014 12:41:22 UTC+02:00, Colin Smale colin.sm

Re: [Tagging] bridge=humpback ?

2014-08-10 Thread Colin Smale
use traffic_calming=hump for this situation or some barrier=*? cu fly Am 10.08.2014 16:23, schrieb Colin Smale: No need to define it as UK-only... such bridges occur across the whole world, I am sure. The UK may be unique by having a specific road sign, which may indicate that a bridge

Re: [Tagging] bridge=humpback ?

2014-08-10 Thread Colin Smale
--colin On 2014-08-10 23:28, Richard Z. wrote: On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 06:14:24PM +0200, Colin Smale wrote: It is neither constructed with the intention of calming traffic, nor is it intended as any kind of barrier (a bridge is usually exactly the opposite!) Let us not be afraid

Re: [Tagging] Distinction between amenity=restaurant and fast_food

2014-08-04 Thread Colin Smale
On 2014-08-04 05:52, Shawn K. Quinn wrote: On Sun, 2014-08-03 at 13:19 -0700, Tod Fitch wrote: Thinking about this there seems to be several items that distinguish a fast food restaurant from other restaurants in my mind: 1. Does it have a drive-through window? Yes implies fast food. 1. Are

Re: [Tagging] Townhouse

2014-07-20 Thread Colin Smale
What's your definition of townhouse? I suspect this word may be in use around the world, meaning different things. What are the essential characteristics? We have to try to be objective - it IS what is IS, but what it is CALLED may vary. On 2014-07-20 06:08, Hans De Kryger wrote: Anyone

Re: [Tagging] Reviewing the use of addr:housename

2014-06-15 Thread Colin Smale
In the UK, some house names are added for vanity and these names are not recognised for addressing purposes; the house has a number, and this is what is in the official address. Other houses however (often old properties along country lanes) actually have a house name instead of a number. These

Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts

2014-06-13 Thread Colin Smale
A signal-controlled roundabout reverts to being a normal roundabout if the traffic signals are not working (assuming it is also signed as a roundabout), so the presence/absence of the traffic signals cannot be a criterion for it being a roundabout or not. I expect most countries will have a

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

2014-05-15 Thread Colin Smale
Tagging capital=* or admin_level=* on a place is IMHO not to be done lightly. It is not actually an attribute of the place at all, because if you moved the place to e.g. the middle of the Atlantic Ocean it would no longer be a capital. It is an attribute of the relationship between the place

Re: [Tagging] admin_level on nodes: wiki vs practice

2014-05-11 Thread Colin Smale
See also the use of the admin_centre in boundary relations. This allows a place to have a different role/importance for each admin area it is in. An interesting case is Amsterdam, which is the capital of NL but not the provincial capital of the province it is in (that's Haarlem). The tagging

Re: [Tagging] direction=forward/backward on nodes ?

2014-04-12 Thread Colin Smale
Have to disagree here. There are plenty of real uses for reversing a way, and not everyone uses JOSM. Colin On 2014-04-12 22:43, Janko Mihelić wrote: 2014-04-12 20:39 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: I have never used this key before because of the drawback you mentioned:

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting Extended - amenity=boat_sharing

2014-03-30 Thread Colin Smale
Well put André. +100. On 2014-03-30 22:25, André Pirard wrote: On 2014-03-29 14:13, SomeoneElse wrote : On 29/03/2014 12:41, nounours77 wrote: As discussed in my earlier post, I think voting is important even for specific service tags to make them offical. Not really - OSM doesn't

Re: [Tagging] Driving side

2014-03-21 Thread Colin Smale
? Therefore, we also often map how vehicles are supposed to use these roads. See: access, oneway, maxspeed, surface, tracktype, smoothness, height, restriction, etc. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Sorry, bad idea. We map the roads, not the vehicles

Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin

2014-03-16 Thread Colin Smale
, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: They all sound much like offices (landuse=commercial) to me. Ownership has nothing to do with land use. In this case, the city council happen to be the users of the property, but if they need to downsize for whatever reason and a particular building

Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin

2014-03-15 Thread Colin Smale
Civil administration is surely hardly a land use. A council office is no different to any other office. I suggest looking at planning zones and their designations as a reference. Typically classifications like residential, retail, commercial, industrial and agricultural are seen, and changing

Re: [Tagging] Fwd: tag for planetarium

2014-02-24 Thread Colin Smale
I would not call it an amenity, which is (to me, native UK English speaker) something for the benefit/enjoyment of society as a whole (or at least a large part of it). These days a planetarium is probably for enjoyment/entertainment (suggesting leisure=planetarium). Colin On 2014-02-24

[Tagging] Metropolitan counties and other boundaries

2014-02-20 Thread Colin Smale
Hi, In the last couple of years I have put in a lot of hours maintaining the UK's admin boundaries in OSM. Having started in Kent (home territory) I have gradually been fanning out to cover more and more of the country. Although there is a lot of consistency in the tagging, one thing I

Re: [Tagging] tag man_made=campanile to be replaced with man_made=belfry?

2014-02-07 Thread Colin Smale
Strictly speaking belfry can mean either the whole tower or more specifically the space where the bells are hung - usually near the top of a tower. However I would suggest that in common English usage the word is more closely associated with the space than with the building. I would prefer to

Re: [Tagging] How to tag an imaginary oneway barrier

2014-02-01 Thread Colin Smale
On 2014-02-01 17:30, Masi Master wrote: Normally traffic signs belongs to the road to the next intersection/crossing. That depends on the country - different jurisdictions have different conventions. In the UK the sign's effect is often until further notice, i.e. until there is another sign

Re: [Tagging] How to tag an imaginary oneway barrier

2014-02-01 Thread Colin Smale
On 2014-02-02 02:15, André Pirard wrote: On 2014-02-01 17:39, Colin Smale wrote : On 2014-02-01 17:30, Masi Master wrote: Normally traffic signs belongs to the road to the next intersection/crossing. That depends on the country - different jurisdictions have different

Re: [Tagging] aerialway=drag_lift

2014-01-22 Thread Colin Smale
Drag lift is more generic - both t-bar and platter (and rope_tow) are subtypes of drag lift. The distinction between t-bar, platter and rope_tow is very important to some people (particularly inexperienced skiers). In some areas like Austria the t-bar is more popular whereas in France you see

Re: [Tagging] aerialway=drag_lift

2014-01-22 Thread Colin Smale
with aerialway:occupancy=2 2014/1/22 Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl Drag lift is more generic - both t-bar and platter (and rope_tow) are subtypes of drag lift. The distinction between t-bar, platter and rope_tow is very important to some people (particularly inexperienced skiers). In some

Re: [Tagging] one-directinal bicycle dismount on oneway road ?

2014-01-19 Thread Colin Smale
I agree. In the UK there is a difference between no cycles and no cycling. Although in general you may be correct that a dismounted cyclist is effectively a pedestrian, there are also footways (or whatever you want to call them) signed as no cycles, which means that in these cases a

Re: [Tagging] one-directinal bicycle dismount on oneway road ?

2014-01-19 Thread Colin Smale
/cycling-pavement-offence Colin On 2014-01-19 17:13, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2014/1/19 Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl there are also footways (or whatever you want to call them) signed as no cycles, which means that in these cases a dismounted cyclist is not equivalent to a pedestrian

Re: [Tagging] access in the wiki: move psv to by use

2014-01-16 Thread Colin Smale
Nobody uses the archaic word omnibus these days. You may as well suggest replacing car with horseless carriage. I really think we are trying to square a circle here. There are irreconcilable differences between countries, and we should not waste our energy in a war of attrition. Whether a

Re: [Tagging] access in the wiki: move psv to by use

2014-01-16 Thread Colin Smale
On 2014-01-16 17:55, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2014/1/16 Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl If the semantics of a tag/value are different by country, let us just document the standards for that country and move on. I'd prefer to use a different tag then, because that's what tagging

Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?

2014-01-08 Thread Colin Smale
I am not sure why it was suddenly changed (today) from unsuitable to discouraged, but Unsuitable for HGVs is seen frequently in the UK. To my understanding there is a difference between the semantics of unsuitable and discouraged, the former being a simple statement of (official) opinion and

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - bicycle=use_cycleway

2013-11-14 Thread Colin Smale
Be aware that road: you may only cycle on the cyclepath if the cyclepath is going where you're headed is ambiguous. 1) if the cyclepath is going where you're headed, then (and only then) are you allowed to use the cyclepath 2) if the cyclepath is going where you're headed, you are obliged

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - bicycle=use_cycleway

2013-11-13 Thread Colin Smale
There are very many roads (in NL at least) marked with bicycle=no with no explicit sign. It is implicit in the fact that a parallel cycle track is marked as compulsory (blue round sign). IMHO the definition of this sign (in law) is totally screwed. It is also used for cycle tracks which are

Re: [Tagging] admin_boundary with multiple levels / county free citys / Kreisfreie Staedte

2013-11-06 Thread Colin Smale
Surely the boundary way itself is unlikely to have a name, other than a synthetic a/b boundary? Unless of course the name refers to some feature like a road or a river which in a specific case may be part of the boundary. As administrative bodies (and their boundaries) are usually hierarchical

Re: [Tagging] admin_boundary with multiple levels / county free citys / Kreisfreie Staedte

2013-11-06 Thread Colin Smale
OK, sorry if I misunderstood. On 2013-11-06 11:25, Pieren wrote: On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Surely the boundary way itself is unlikely to have a name, other than a synthetic a/b boundary? To clarify, my remark was just about the tag

Re: [Tagging] admin_boundary with multiple levels / county free citys / Kreisfreie Staedte

2013-11-05 Thread Colin Smale
In the UK we do the opposite. In Unitary Authorities, which combine the role of the county with the district (sounds like the same as the Kreisfreie Staedte) we tag the UA as admin_level=6, i.e. at the same level as counties, and not admin_level=8 which is the level for the districts. We also

Re: [Tagging] access=exclusion_zone

2013-10-30 Thread Colin Smale
The tag used in the examples is military=exclusion_zone, whereas it has been documented as access=exclusion_zone. The tagging makes sense in my eyes, but the wiki needs bringing in line. Colin On 2013-10-30 09:08, Martin Vonwald wrote: Hi! 2013/10/29 martinq osm-mart...@fantasymail.de

Re: [Tagging] Hiking route abandoned

2013-10-02 Thread Colin Smale
Of course we tag for the renderer (a.k.a. data consumer), that's the only reason OSM exists. What we DON'T do, is deliberately tag *incorrectly* to persuade the renderer to produce a desired result. Renderers need to be able to make certain distinctions - if not based on an explicit tag, then by

Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: gambling

2013-09-28 Thread Colin Smale
I would recommend making a clear distinction between the premises and the activity. Lotteries are rarely carried out in shops, but the tickets are sold in all manner of establishments with a different primary purpose. And whether you can ever call gambling an amenity (for the public good) is

Re: [Tagging] How to map an household goods store?

2013-09-16 Thread Colin Smale
From a UK perspective my feeling is that houseware and home are not synonyms - home suggests more furnishings, maybe lighting etc but not so much the utilitarian objects that might be better labelled as houseware. Kitchenware would be a category of houseware; other categories/subsets might

Re: [Tagging] owner vs operator

2013-09-03 Thread Colin Smale
On 2013-09-03 13:45, Richard Welty wrote: On 9/3/13 7:31 AM, John Sturdy wrote: On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 11:59 AM, François Lacombe francois.laco...@telecom-bretagne.eu wrote: Operator could be given by operator=* and the effective owner by a new owner=* tag. What about when a business is owned

Re: [Tagging] funny tags: turning_radius

2013-08-29 Thread Colin Smale
Won't the calculated radius depend on the number of points on the way, and the width of the road? If you look closely at the geometry of a curved road in OSM it is of course made up of straight segments with a certain angle between them. A right angle junction might be a 45 steps of 2 degrees

Re: [Tagging] access at own risk

2013-07-31 Thread Colin Smale
In what way is this any different to any other road? Even on a government maintained road you accept a degree of own responsibility. What additional risks are we talking about here? Colin Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: I am sure this has been asked many times before: How do I tag

Re: [Tagging] Are addresses ... objects vs attributes

2013-07-25 Thread Colin Smale
Surely Peter's point (which I agree with) is that leisure and sport are two different things, and should not be seen as mutually exclusive or as competitors to each other. There are many sports which (can) take place in a (suitable) swimming pool (swimming, diving, water polo etc), but not all

Re: [Tagging] gross weight - conclusions changes

2013-07-01 Thread Colin Smale
The UK Government seem to think an HGV starts at 3.5t GVW, not 7.5t. By those standards, hgv=no is not a correct transposition of the sign with a lorry+weight(7.5t) symbol. Nor is maxweight=7.5 (I think) because it only applies to goods vehicles - not buses/coaches for example (correct me if

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - More Consistency in Railway Tagging

2013-04-14 Thread Colin Smale
What about the difference in signalling systems? As I understand it, what I would call a Tram is completely under control of the driver. He/she alone decides when to stop/start, and even which way to go at junctions. They have traffic lights which are interconnected with the lights for other

Re: [Tagging] Catchment Areas

2012-12-03 Thread Colin Smale
In my mind there is a conceptual difference between formally defined administrative areas and informal catchment areas. For the former, there is (somewhere) a documented source of the truth, whereas there is no official document to describe the delivery area of a pizza restaurant. Religious

Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet

2012-12-03 Thread Colin Smale
pOn 2012-12-03 20:27, Ole Nielsen wrote:/p pgt; BTW, I'm not sure how useful the wet tag (old style or new style) is./p pIn France the speed limit on motorways is 130 when dry and 110 when wet. I don't know what the legal definition of wet is for these purposes. I do know I would not like to

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gross vehicle weight rating

2012-11-26 Thread Colin Smale
Hi Rob, Am Sonntag, 25. November 2012, 23:40:04 schrieb Rob Nickerson: In the UK I've spotted that some maximum weight road signs have just the weight limit on the sign, whilst others also include a picture of a HGV. I've only realised this difference recently and have not had time to

Re: [Tagging] Proposed feature - age groups in schools

2012-11-25 Thread Colin Smale
Take a look at the discussions on this page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dschool Min_age and max_age are already proposed there, as is the use of the UN classifications (ISCED) for the level of education. So I'm afraid I will be voting against your proposal; not

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gross vehicle weight rating

2012-11-22 Thread Colin Smale
I think you mean maximum gross vehicle weight, not just gross vehicle weight. Maximum GVW is documented on the registration documents. The GVW itself is the mass of the vehicle plus specified elements Hi, this is a minor follow-up proposal for Conditional Restrictions. As the discussion has

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Gross vehicle weight rating

2012-11-22 Thread Colin Smale
Sorry, please ignore this, it was a random thought I was preparing and I pressed the wrong button by accident. I think you mean maximum gross vehicle weight, not just gross vehicle weight. Maximum GVW is documented on the registration documents. The GVW itself is the mass of the vehicle plus

Re: [Tagging] fire district boundaries

2012-11-22 Thread Colin Smale
I wouldn't use boundary=admin with admin_level unless there is actually a hierarchical relationship with the levels above/below. Otherwise they should really be in their own hierarchy, using something like boundary=fire_service. AIUI the US fire departments are at the city or county level. Can a

Re: [Tagging] exit_to on motorway_junction

2012-11-20 Thread Colin Smale
Using only exit_to there is no way to handle junction topologies other than a straightforward highway exit, where there is one big through road and one small road leaving. What about wrong-side exits? Or where the highway splits into two (or more) roads of equal importance? Destination tagging is

Re: [Tagging] Differences between crop and produce?

2012-11-19 Thread Colin Smale
As a sidenote there seems to be suggestions for maize and corn, which, if I interpret this right, are the same plant, the first being BE and the second AE? (As we generally use BE, maybe if what I suppose is true we should mark corn as deprecated?) From wikipedia

Re: [Tagging] exit_to on motorway_junction

2012-11-18 Thread Colin Smale
Johan, I agree with your statement that destination is much more universal than exit_to. I would prefer to see destination brought into wider use and exit_to deprecated. I only use destination, which I use very frequently to help make routing instructions (not: routing calculations - these

Re: [Tagging] exit_to on motorway_junction

2012-11-18 Thread Colin Smale
Phil, there's a difference between routing calculation (which neither knows nor cares about road names, numbers, signposts etc) and how the result of the calculation is presented to the user. Then you need to relate the nodes/edges in the routing graph back to the real world. The value in this

Re: [Tagging] exit_to on motorway_junction

2012-11-18 Thread Colin Smale
On 18/11/2012 21:59, Philip Barnes wrote: On Sun, 2012-11-18 at 21:26 +0100, Colin Smale wrote: Phil, there's a difference between routing calculation (which neither knows nor cares about road names, numbers, signposts etc) and how the result of the calculation is presented to the user

Re: [Tagging] Fuel, additional tags

2012-11-12 Thread Colin Smale
On Mon, 2012-11-12 at 20:00 +, Malcolm Herring wrote: On 12/11/2012 19:27, Jo wrote: The dye added is not the common denominator. We need the British term for the tax break status of it. Two common terms in use are: marked diesel and agricultural diesel. In the UK its usually called

Re: [Tagging] Tagging GB railway stations and track

2012-11-07 Thread Colin Smale
Wouldn't the route code be better in a relation? I'm sure there will be some bits of the network which are part of multiple routes. Why include the word code in the tag name for CRS (and nr_route_code) and not for TIPLOC and STANOX? Colin All, I'm part of a group of people who are working to

Re: [Tagging] Tag ref on motorway_link

2012-10-31 Thread Colin Smale
2012/10/30 Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl: There is also the destination tag set which covers the ref as signposted, allowing the ref=* to reflect the actual administrative ID. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination If you mean by destination tag set the key destination:ref

Re: [Tagging] Tag ref on motorway_link

2012-10-30 Thread Colin Smale
* Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com [2012-10-24 14:49 +0900]: I think it's incredibly relevant whether it's included on the sign. I suspect that the vast majority of people who use maps with reference numbers on them use those maps for navigation. I think such people would primarily be

Re: [Tagging] Tag ref on motorway_link

2012-10-23 Thread Colin Smale
Hi Martin, First and foremost, tags applied to an object should of course refer to that object. I normally interpret the ref tag on a ROAD as the reference ID of that ROAD as designated by the powers-that-be. Motorway slip roads are (in my experience in UK/NL) administratively speaking an extra

Re: [Tagging] How to tag: Legally separated ways

2012-10-16 Thread Colin Smale
There's maybe a difference between the case of two lanes in the same direction, and two lanes in opposite directions. On 16/10/2012 11:44, Janko Mihelic' wrote: I posted this picture the last time this came up. It shows that dividing roads is silly in some situations, for example countryside

Re: [Tagging] Conditional restrictions accepted – turn restrictions ahead?

2012-10-16 Thread Colin Smale
On 16/10/2012 17:45, Rob Nickerson wrote: Hi Eckhart, Your right, voting has come to an end for the Conditional Restrictions proposal, which was approved. A statement was not made on this list as Ole and I are working on how best to write the feature page so that some of the concerns raised

Re: [Tagging] destination_ref vs. dest_ref vs. destination:ref

2012-10-15 Thread Colin Smale
I saw the choice between dest_ref and destination_ref and adopted dest_ref for the simple reason that it's shorter. In my mkgmap styles I allow for either, and recently added destination:ref to that list. I'm not particularly bothered which one wins, but I'm always in favour of a bit of

Re: [Tagging] How to tag: Legally separated ways

2012-10-15 Thread Colin Smale
I would choose option b). Even if all four lanes are one piece of carriageway, it is useful for routing directions etc to be able to make a distinction between the left and right parts of the road. Normal mortals are supposed to treat the solid white lines as if they were a brick wall anyway,

Re: [Tagging] How to tag: Legally separated ways

2012-10-15 Thread Colin Smale
I don't understand why emergency vehicles are so important in this discussion. In the first place they have wide-ranging exemptions from traffic rules, which (let's be honest) we are never going to tag in OSM. Secondly they are never going to be relying on OSM data (or indeed any normal

Re: [Tagging] Naming boundary ways - the — separation character

2012-10-10 Thread Colin Smale
On 10/10/2012 21:53, Alexander wrote: Hi, I think the separation sign should be chosen by the render. +1 Why not adding new tags like: name:left=Mexico name:right=USA -1 This looks to me like blatant tagging for the renderer, i.e. manipulating the tagging to produce an optically

Re: [Tagging] name of river/admin area

2012-09-04 Thread Colin Smale
On 04/09/2012 15:30, Phil! Gold wrote: I fully agree that there's no way to set a global standard; it should be left to the locals, who know the features best. But how local is local? It's obvious that a single standard for the whole world is not going to happen, but there has to be some level

[Tagging] name of river/admin area

2012-09-03 Thread Colin Smale
I can't find any guidance or consistency in the data, so I thought I'd let up a balloon here... Should the name=* for a river include the word River? Is it name=Thames or name=River Thames? According to the wiki [1] we should only use Thames in this case. If we consider River Thames to be

Re: [Tagging] Carriageway divider

2012-08-21 Thread Colin Smale
I live in hope that, one day, we might have documented defaults or implied values per territory. Until that time, we may have to map both the tangible artefact (solid line) and the implications for routing (no u-turns etc.) separately. They are distinct concepts, related by the rules of the

Re: [Tagging] Carriageway divider

2012-08-20 Thread Colin Smale
Isn't that what turn restrictions are for? Colin On 20/08/2012 13:10, Markus Lindholm wrote: On 20 August 2012 12:57, Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com wrote: On 20 August 2012 09:39, Elena ``of Valhalla'' elena.valha...@gmail.com wrote: On 2012-08-19 at 14:09:18 +0200, Markus

Re: [Tagging] traffic=fast

2012-08-09 Thread Colin Smale
As every track segment has a maximum speed, why not just apply the existing maxspeed=* tag to the tracks? It is not clear to me whether your intention with traffic=fast refers to some attribute of the track itself, or the use to which it is put. Is it some official designation (from Network

Re: [Tagging] Advice clarification of the railway tracks=* tag required.

2012-08-08 Thread Colin Smale
While we're at it, what's traffic=fast on a rail line? What other values could there be? Weren't we using service=* for this kind of thing? Colin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] on the name of a tag for landcover

2012-08-03 Thread Colin Smale
On 03/08/2012 13:36, Martin Vonwald wrote: To cut a long story short: landcover=herbs would also be fine, IF we would expect that those tag will be often used and the difference to landcover=grass is substantial enough. As I doubt that I would recommend landcover=grass and grass=herbs. Grass is

Re: [Tagging] Tagging u-turn restriction with continuous painted line

2012-07-03 Thread Colin Smale
On 03/07/2012 13:29, Janko Mihelić wrote: I think no_left_turn is the best solution. The line on the middle of the street is not a u-turn indicator, it is an overtake indicator which can be tagged with overtaking=no and overtaking=both. Are you sure that the dotted overtake line allows you to

Re: [Tagging] Ref tag

2012-06-19 Thread Colin Smale
Strictly speaking the international E-numbers are routes, not roads. The European Route Network is overlaid on top of the national networks and doesn't bother about international boundaries. In Belgium however it is very common to use the E-route numbers on signs instead of any local A-number

Re: [Tagging] Ref tag

2012-06-19 Thread Colin Smale
Hull) to Esbjerg. A well thought out route? Phil -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 19/06/2012 11:46 Colin Smale wrote: Strictly speaking the international E-numbers are routes, not roads. The European Route Network is overlaid on top of the national networks and doesn't bother about international

Re: [Tagging] Reviving the conditions debate

2012-06-15 Thread Colin Smale
Hi Eckhart, On 15/06/2012 01:08, Eckhart Wörner wrote: Hi Colin, Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2012, 00:24:18 schrieb Colin Smale: If I were king I would be looking for a system that: * makes common cases easy Extended conditions: ☑ * makes complex cases possible Extended conditions: ☑ * makes

Re: [Tagging] Reviving the conditions debate

2012-06-14 Thread Colin Smale
Tobias, thanks for your constructive response. On 14/06/2012 03:22, Tobias Knerr wrote: On 13.06.2012 23:48, Colin Smale wrote: Taking the access discussion to a higher level of abstraction, and without abandoning the key-value pair paradigm, I believe we are looking for a way of giving a tag

Re: [Tagging] Reviving the conditions debate

2012-06-14 Thread Colin Smale
On 14/06/2012 11:19, Pieren wrote: On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 8:38 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Back to my idea to move all 'variables' to the value : Let say we create a new access keyword : condition (or access_condition, cond, expr or whatever_you_like) suffixed by a number, eg

Re: [Tagging] Reviving the conditions debate

2012-06-14 Thread Colin Smale
On 14/06/2012 12:53, Flaimo wrote: this notation has the same flaw as the current access scheme. it mixes transportation modes and user roles. motor_vehicle is a transportation mode. agricultural is a user role. not everywhere on this planet agricultural automatically means motor_vehicle. that

Re: [Tagging] Reviving the conditions debate

2012-06-14 Thread Colin Smale
On 14/06/2012 13:00, Tobias Knerr wrote: On 14.06.2012 08:38, Colin Smale wrote: My concern with this is that it may become unwieldy and cumbersome with anything beyond fairly trivial cases such as your maxspeed example. For me, the goal is to make the common cases *easy*, and the rare complex

Re: [Tagging] Reviving the conditions debate

2012-06-14 Thread Colin Smale
Martin, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it had better be a duck... What I mean with this, is if the grammar is so English-like such that people are tempted to use constructions which are not (or not quite) supported by the grammar, or if the way it works is contrary to how

Re: [Tagging] Reviving the conditions debate

2012-06-13 Thread Colin Smale
For some reason everyone seems determined to come up with the most complex system imaginable, instead of taking successful ideas from the rest of the world. This trait is what causes many projects to fail. Let's not look at this as simply a discussion about access tags, but an opportunity to

Re: [Tagging] Reviving the conditions debate

2012-06-13 Thread Colin Smale
On 13/06/2012 18:23, Eckhart Wörner wrote: Hi Colin, Am Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2012, 18:11:53 schrieb Colin Smale: For some reason everyone seems determined to come up with the most complex system imaginable, instead of taking successful ideas from the rest of the world. This trait is what causes

Re: [Tagging] Mapping larger Mini-roundabouts

2012-06-06 Thread Colin Smale
On 06/06/2012 09:13, Martin Vonwald wrote: If you want to specify the dimension of the mini-roundabout I think it would be sufficient to specify the width of the approaching roads. Martin How about diameter=15 on the mini-roundabout node? This is factually correct, verifiable on the ground

Re: [Tagging] New access tag value needed?

2012-06-01 Thread Colin Smale
When a UK sign says unsuitable for motor vehicles or unsuitable for HGVs it means discouraged in your terms. There is no guarantee that you *will* get into problems, but it is just a strong warning. A road that becomes a muddy track might present a problem for a normal car, but a trial bike or

Re: [Tagging] New access tag value needed?

2012-06-01 Thread Colin Smale
On 01/06/2012 14:19, Jason Cunningham wrote: On 1 June 2012 08:09, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com mailto:imagic@gmail.com wrote: But we have to make sure, that this values are only applied if real indications (e.g. signposts) are present and not e.g. if one just thinks

[Tagging] Golf courses: clubhouse and course entrance?

2012-05-21 Thread Colin Smale
I'd like to get some input about tagging golf courses as navigation targets. I found a detailed page describing the tagging for the actual sporting areas (tees, greens etc) but no clear pointers about how to tag things to get you to the course in the first place. The club house building is

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