Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

-- Original Message -- From: "Christoph Hormann" To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" Sent: 07/08/2020 08:27:23 Subject: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war I concur with a lot of your observations and like you i had essentially given up on the i

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Friday 07 August 2020, Colin Smale wrote: > > The word "ocean" is already subjective... [...] Oh please. Not again another attempt to deflect into a discussion of language semantics when i am clearly not talking about the word ocean but about the abstract physical and language independent

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On 2020-08-07 11:18, Christoph Hormann wrote: > On Friday 07 August 2020, Colin Smale wrote: > >> The word "ocean" is already subjective... [...] > > Oh please. Not again another attempt to deflect into a discussion of > language semantics Completely the other way around. I hope to remove

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Aug 7, 2020, 11:36 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl: > > On 2020-08-07 11:18, Christoph Hormann wrote: > > >> That digital maps have - based on the precedent set by >> Google - almost universally ignored this fact does not change it. >>   >> > You say Google have "ignored" this. What makes you think

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On 2020-08-07 12:04, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote: > Aug 7, 2020, 11:36 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl: > > On 2020-08-07 11:18, Christoph Hormann wrote: > > That digital maps have - based on the precedent set by > Google - almost universally ignored this fact does not change it. > > You

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On 2020-08-07 09:27, Christoph Hormann wrote: >> I concur with a lot of your observations and like you i had essentially >> given up on the idea of the coastline representing meaningful >> information in the long term. But considering this is a very sad >> conclusion which essentially means

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Would it be worth considering adding other tags with area limits to the water/land polygons computation? Yves ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

I concur with a lot of your observations and like you i had essentially given up on the idea of the coastline representing meaningful information in the long term. But considering this is a very sad conclusion which essentially means OpenStreetMap failing in its primary goal in the single

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

I've so far stayed out of this discussion because my final thoughts on the matter will I am sure be contentious. In no order of importance my thoughts are: 1) the idea of basing a the limit on coastline on levels of salinity or average water flows makes as little sense as trying to specify

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Muralito, it would be very useful if you could address the request i have made several times now. I will not engage in a discussion on the other lines you mean to open here because it is non-productive from my perspective. It could take us hours to determine the smallest common denominator

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

- Mensaje original - > De: "Joseph Eisenberg" > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > Enviados: Miércoles, 5 de Agosto 2020 19:46:06 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > Here's another issue I would like mu

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

atural=bay, like most other similar features in OpenStreetMap, with the exception of the Rio de la Plata) – Joseph Eisenberg On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 2:52 AM Alan Mackie wrote: > > > > On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 at 01:34, wrote: >> >> >> >> - Mensaje original - &g

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 at 01:34, wrote: > > > - Mensaje original - > > De: "Joseph Eisenberg" > > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" < > tagging@openstreetmap.org> > > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 16:

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

- Mensaje original - > De: "Joseph Eisenberg" > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 16:56:31 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > The graphics in this document are mainly models of

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On 2020-08-04 22:46, Paul Allen wrote: > On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 19:54, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > >> Similarly, should Puget Sound and San Francisco Bay be mapped as >> natural=water + water=river? These are also estuaries. > > I suspect the answer is contained within the question. We have

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

sent from a phone > On 4. Aug 2020, at 18:30, Colin Smale wrote: > > The status of the Gulf of Taranto is disputable as it appears to have no > basis in international law. it is indeed disputed by the UK, the US and maybe others, but according to the Italian baseline it is completely in

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 19:54, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: Similarly, should Puget Sound and San Francisco Bay be mapped as > natural=water + water=river? These are also estuaries. > I suspect the answer is contained within the question. We have the words "ocean" and "estuary" because we consider

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:16 PM Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > On 8/4/20 18:28, Kevin Kenny wrote: > > In actual practice, in the estuaries of rivers, the 'coastline' is very > > seldom tagged that far upstream. > > From my Chesapeake Bay example, in OSM, Havre de Grace (290km inland) is > a

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

-- > > De: "Kevin Kenny" > > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" < > tagging@openstreetmap.org> > > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 16:28:55 > > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tuesday 04 August 2020, Kevin Kenny wrote: > > The Hudson definitely reverses flow. One of its names among the First > Peoples translates to 'the river flows both ways.' The division in > the flow lies less in the fraction of the tidal cycle than the speed > of the current. It flows 'upstream'

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

- Mensaje original - > De: "Kevin Kenny" > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 16:28:55 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:18 PM Joseph Eisenberg <

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 12:31 PM Kevin Kenny wrote: > The Hudson definitely reverses flow. One of its names among the First > Peoples translates to 'the river flows both ways.' The division in the > flow lies less in the fraction of the tidal cycle than the speed of the > current. It flows

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

"The locals certainly make a distinction between the waters of the Sacramento and American rivers and those of San Pablo and San Franscisco Bays, or those of Puget Sound and the many rivers that empty into it. They also make a distinction between the bays, or the sound, and the ocean. " And so do

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:18 PM Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > These rules would exclude the lower Rio De La Plata and the lower part of > the mouth of the Saint Lawrence river, as well as other wide estuaries > where winds and tides have more influence on surface water flow than does > the

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 2:54 PM Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > It's perfectly possible to make a physical definition of an estuary which > allows the line of the natural=coastline to be placed across the lower > Hudson, rather than at Troy or Albany, if we look at salinity and currents > rather than

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Re: " Your argument is that the first dam or waterfall is the only 'objective' way to place it. " That's not what Christoph has proposed. You can read his suggestions at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Coastline-River_transit_placement It provides a great deal of lee-way

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Hi, On 8/4/20 18:28, Kevin Kenny wrote: > In actual practice, in the estuaries of rivers, the 'coastline' is very > seldom tagged that far upstream. From my Chesapeake Bay example, in OSM, Havre de Grace (290km inland) is a "coastal"city

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tuesday 04 August 2020, Kevin Kenny wrote: > > A water polygon remains a water polygon whether its boundary is > `natural=coastilne`, `waterway=river`, `natural=water` or whatever. > Nobody is arguing over the physical extent of surface water coverage. I am sorry that i cannot make you see my

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 12:59 PM Christoph Hormann wrote: > I am not saying that OSM should only record physical geography. I am > saying that natural=coastline is a physical geography tag and should be > defined based on physical geography criteria. If there is no consensus > about this we can

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

It's perfectly possible to make a physical definition of an estuary which allows the line of the natural=coastline to be placed across the lower Hudson, rather than at Troy or Albany, if we look at salinity and currents rather than just tides: and we must, because some parts of the coast in the

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tuesday 04 August 2020, Kevin Kenny wrote: > > Moreover, I'm somewhat puzzled at Christoph's insistence that > 'natural=coastline' have a strict physical definition, and dismiss > local understanding as merely political and cultural. In almost all > other aspects of OSM, the understanding of

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On 2020-08-04 17:40, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > +1, similarly in Italy, the baseline is defined through (relatively few) > coordinates in a law, which is located always on the most outer points of the > land or on islands, it has few to do with the coastline. For example the Gulf > of

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 11:24 AM Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > This means that the line tagged with natural=coastline is on the inland > side of all marine water, including mangroves, salt marshes, and tidal > channels, as far as possible. It makes sense that in estuaries, the route > of the ways

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

ed tools" > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 12:21:48 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > We are not talking about a concept like "the coastline", we are talking about > the tag "natural=coastline", which in OpenStreetMap has been defined (fo

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

sent from a phone > On 4. Aug 2020, at 17:24, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > Looking at the Phillipines and Indonesia, the baseline has very little > relation to the physical geographical tide lines, since it merely connects > the outer edges of islands in the archipelago. > > Similarly, in

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tuesday 04 August 2020, mural...@montevideo.com.uy wrote: > > It's all about semantics. No, physical geography is not. > How could I answer your question if you are not able to define what > you mean by natural=coastline? I am able to explain how i would define natural=coastline and i have

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

AM wrote: > - Mensaje original - > > De: "Christoph Hormann" > > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" < > tagging@openstreetmap.org> > > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 11:17:32 > > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la P

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

- Mensaje original - > De: "Alan Mackie" > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 11:35:29 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > On Tue, 4 Aug 2020, 14:19 , < mural...@montevideo.com.

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

- Mensaje original - > De: "Christoph Hormann" > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 11:17:32 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > On Tuesday 04 August 2020, mural...@montevideo.c

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

- Mensaje original - > De: "Christoph Hormann" > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 8:04:55 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > On Monday 03 August 2020, mural...@montev

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tuesday 04 August 2020, Adam Franco wrote: > It seems to me that the main underlying conflict is that (at least in > the default Carto rendering on openstreetmap.org a few years ago) the > Rio Plata was getting rendered as land at low-zooms and South America > simply looks wrong when such a

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020, 14:19 , wrote: > - Mensaje original - > > De: "Christoph Hormann" > > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" < > tagging@openstreetmap.org> > > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 9:14:32 > > Asunto:

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tuesday 04 August 2020, mural...@montevideo.com.uy wrote: > > I linked several scientific studies that clearly shows and are > verifiable geographic evidence that this is not an oceanic coast, its > a riverbank [...] I am not going to start a discussion here on the semantics of terms like

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

It seems to me that the main underlying conflict is that (at least in the default Carto rendering on openstreetmap.org a few years ago) the Rio Plata was getting rendered as land at low-zooms and South America simply looks wrong when such a large water area is rendered as land.

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

- Mensaje original - > De: "Christoph Hormann" > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 9:14:32 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > Almost all of the arguments you bring up here ar

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tuesday 04 August 2020, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > Christoph, I guess it could be seen from looking at the email headers > or when reading in a threaded view, but for the convenience of > everybody I’d ask you to add a bit of context to your contributions > here (in particular to whom you

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

sent from a phone > On 4. Aug 2020, at 14:16, Christoph Hormann wrote: > > Almost all of the arguments you bring up here are cultural or political > in nature. Christoph, I guess it could be seen from looking at the email headers or when reading in a threaded view, but for the

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Almost all of the arguments you bring up here are cultural or political in nature. Discussing those will lead us nowhere. Hence my suggestion to you in the other mail to consider this exclusively from the physical geographic perspective. The only point i could identify in your writing that

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Monday 03 August 2020, mural...@montevideo.com.uy wrote: > > i will try. > > > in my last mail i'm questioning the coastline placement in several > rivers. so, > -what are we mapping the coastline for? > -what we want from the "coastline"? > -what questions are we going to answer, or could we

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Hi, On 03.08.20 22:41, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > I have previously proposed that estuaries should be mapped by extending > the coastline upstream to the limit of the estuary, and also mapping the > area of the estuary as water with water=estuary I wonder if we're not becoming too theoretical by

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 06:43, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > I have previously proposed that estuaries should be mapped by extending > the coastline upstream to the limit of the estuary, and also mapping the > area of the estuary as water with water=estuary > Good solution! It's not one thing or

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" < > tagging@openstreetmap.org> > > Enviados: Lunes, 3 de Agosto 2020 16:27:12 > > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > > > On Monday 03 August 2020, mural...@montevideo.com.uy wrote: > >> > >> The

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

> De: "Kevin Kenny" > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > Enviados: Domingo, 2 de Agosto 2020 11:03:09 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 6:42 PM Paul Norman via Tagging < > tagging@openst

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

- Mensaje original - > De: "Christoph Hormann" > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > Enviados: Lunes, 3 de Agosto 2020 16:27:12 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > On Monday 03 August 2020, mural...@montevideo.com.

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

- Mensaje original - > De: "Christoph Hormann" > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > Enviados: Domingo, 2 de Agosto 2020 7:29:05 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > On Sunday 02 August 2020, Paul Norman via Tagging wr

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Monday 03 August 2020, mural...@montevideo.com.uy wrote: > > The scientific view, and what can be experienced or observed here is > that the coastline ends in Punta del Este. And the line to Punta Rasa > is a good average of the limit. Where should be put the coasline if > not here? Hello

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

- Mensaje original - > De: "Christoph Hormann" > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > Enviados: Sábado, 1 de Agosto 2020 14:52:40 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > On Friday 31 July 2020, Andy Townsend wrote: >>

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

> De: "Alan Mackie" > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > Enviados: Sábado, 1 de Agosto 2020 13:26:06 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > On Sat, 1 Aug 2020 at 07:21, Paul Norman via Tagging < > tagging@openstreetmap.

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

> De: "Paul Norman via Tagging" > Para: tagging@openstreetmap.org > CC: "Paul Norman" > Enviados: Sábado, 1 de Agosto 2020 3:18:34 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > On 2020-07-31 8:21 a.m., Andy Townsend wrote: >> On 26/05/2020 00:2

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Hi, - Mensaje original - > De: "frederik" > Para: tagging@openstreetmap.org > Enviados: Viernes, 31 de Julio 2020 19:16:50 > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > Hi, > > I don't know the region myself so I am limited to anecdotal

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 6:42 PM Paul Norman via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > Starting locally, the Fraser River has a strong tidal influence 25km > upstream of the coastline/riverbank edge. Fishers report a tidal > influence 90km upstream. Wikipedia says the Columbia has tidal

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Sunday 02 August 2020, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > > If you consider that incorrect you also have to ask yourself if you > > draw the same conclusion for natural=bay and natural=strait > > polygons: > > didn’t you argue some time ago that natural=bay should only be placed > as nodes

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

sent from a phone > On 2. Aug 2020, at 12:30, Christoph Hormann wrote: > > If you consider that incorrect you also have to ask yourself if you draw > the same conclusion for natural=bay and natural=strait polygons: didn’t you argue some time ago that natural=bay should only be placed as

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Sunday 02 August 2020, Paul Norman via Tagging wrote: > > I would consider an area mapped as water both with natural=coastline > and waterway=riverbank or natural=water in error. I haven't seen any > cases where this is done. It is long term established practice at the Elbe and Weser in

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On 2020-08-01 9:26 a.m., Alan Mackie wrote: Perhaps I am an overly literal follower of the wiki, but I had always assumed the coastline should continue inland as far as the tide continues to be noticeable. Mediterranean mapping might be an issue, but elsewhere I think this is fairly clear?

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Friday 31 July 2020, Andy Townsend wrote: > > For what it's worth, neither extreme position looks the best answer > to me - looking at the salinity change between river to ocean at > https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0307904X07000716 > (see >

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Yes, and no. It gets tricky. Look at the Thames, which is tidal up to Teddington Lock, but you wouldn't really say that Richmond is "on the coast" now would you? But for flood risk assessment it is in danger of tidal/coastal flooding. On Sat, 1 Aug 2020, 17:27 Alan Mackie, wrote: > > > On Sat,

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Sat, 1 Aug 2020 at 07:21, Paul Norman via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > On 2020-07-31 8:21 a.m., Andy Townsend wrote: > > On 26/05/2020 00:20, Alan Mackie wrote: > > Has this edit war stabilised? > > Apparently it has been blocking coastline updates across the whole world > for

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On 2020-07-31 8:21 a.m., Andy Townsend wrote: On 26/05/2020 00:20, Alan Mackie wrote: Has this edit war stabilised? Apparently it has been blocking coastline updates across the whole world for /months /now. https://osmdata.openstreetmap.de/data/land-polygons.html

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Hi, I don't know the region myself so I am limited to anecdotal evidence as found on the web: * Montevideo clearly brands itself as having "a coast" (from welcomeuruguay.com: "Costa de Oro" (Gold Coast) is the name given to the great variety of beaches stretching from La Barra de Carrasco, in

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On 26/05/2020 00:20, Alan Mackie wrote: Has this edit war stabilised? Apparently it has been blocking coastline updates across the whole world for /months /now. https://osmdata.openstreetmap.de/data/land-polygons.html

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Has this edit war stabilised? Apparently it has been blocking coastline updates across the whole world for *months *now. https://osmdata.openstreetmap.de/data/land-polygons.html https://github.com/fossgis/osmdata/issues/7 On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 at 11:40, Christoph Hormann wrote: > On Monday 13

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

On Monday 13 January 2020, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > According to Wikipedia, the International Hydrographic Organization > defines the eastern boundary of the Río de la Plata as "a line > joining Punta del Este, Uruguay and Cabo San Antonio, Argentina", > which is what has been the case in OSM

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Ok, I checked the changeset: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/79201390 I doesn't look like the user who did the revert of the change was intending to edit-war, but was instead responding to the appearance of the Rio de la Plata being rendered as land on some map styles. This always

Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

It's fine for the area of the river (waterway=riverbank or natural=water + water=river) to extend out to that line, but that's the extreme limit of the estuary and it's part of the marine environment. The coastline should extend up higher to where the flow of the river is consistenly stronger

[Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Hi, it appears that once again mappers are in diasgreement about how to map the Rio de la Plata, here https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/-35.154/-56.310 This is a disagreement that had already flared up three years ago, and is now coming back. According to Wikipedia, the International