irection
What you will probably need to consider is how to distinguish
natural=peninula from named parts of the coast or named coastal areas
and if you want to include more specific coastal land forms like spits.
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0.9 km^2 peninsula
and a 1.1 km^2 peninsula differently)
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1,000-10,000 inhabitants.
Where is the numerical limit in there?
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0985983
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2098928265
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4727612495
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2696775247
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nte de
Pen-Hir to be about 0.3 km^2?
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int on land in a certain
> direction
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ship between a natural=cape and a
natural=peninsula (and your illustration therefore showing Pointe des
Espagnols but not Pointe des Capucins).
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5300517#map=15/48.26
>07/-4.6146
And how can a mapper practically determine this geometry?
It seems to me that you are conjuring a peninsula here and simply apply
the name of the cape to the peninsula without a basis for making that
connection.
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es are such
cases).
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lue and precision in OSM data is going to be a much bigger
problem.
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re it maybe gets better) but
i none the less consider it important to point out that this is
something that is visible right now to people who approach this with an
open mind and open eyes.
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their own, the only get meaning together with other tags (like
a highway or waterway tag in these cases).
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on much clearer and simpler matters have shown me
that. I can just hope most mappers will emancipate themselves from
this and not invest their time and energy in mapping and maintining
polygon mazes over coastal waters.
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not appropriate is to incentivize mapping bays with polygons by
labeling them from polygons in a different form that in particular for
large bays is more suitable and attractive than when mapped with nodes.
Or like for straits to label them when mapped with polygons but not
show them at al
n: Umgekehrt wird ein Schuh draus.
You should not need to add non-verifiable data to the database to be
able to map verifiable knowledge of the geography and see it in
OSM-Carto.
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without taking into account the verifiability
question.
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I think this would be a good idea but i
also doubt this would prevent some mappers to push such mapping.
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of such numbers. I
mean in OSM we do not map internal numbering systems of organizations
for their infrastructure if those are not manifested in the form of
signs visible to the outside observer.
If plot numbers are signed the question is why these are not considered
addresse
t 42 that is definitely an address from my perspective.
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d the Indian subcontinent:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_subcontinent
But i think if you really want natural=peninsula to be meaningful
geometrically you need to go at least to this limit.
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le just means 'some water area near the coast a mapper wanted to
label') you better try to make the definition somewhat clearer.
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On Wednesday 09 January 2019, Bryan Housel wrote:
> [...] Most of the people involved don’t even work on
> software.
Despite accurate critique of dysfunctional dynamics and developments on
the wiki i smell a software development supremacist here.
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re the level of completeness in mapping by
how many bays and peninsulas a coastline segment is member of.
If only someone would have warned us about this years ago... Oh wait,
someone did:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-October/019780.html
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ecause they evidently coincide with physical features like ridges)
but there are huge parts of the world where they are not and you would
only try to estimate them based on already existing data.
In short: This is not something you can reasonably map in OSM.
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urate maps is orders of magnitude easier than elsewhere. Compared
to that the would-be gain of having watershed geometries available in
addition would be relatively small.
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tag any more for
anything other than legacy fallback if other data is missing. Any
proposal to separately tag the language of the name tag (several
initiatives in that direction have been made in the past) is a very
different idea.
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h is exactly what the name tag is
currently used for, just in a less transparent, less consistent and
more difficult to maintain and to interpret form.
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he language of the name
> > tag ... is a very different idea.
>
> Functionally both ideas work the same, right?
No, most of the advantages of my tagging concept depend on not having an
aggregate name tag but tagging the individual names in different
languages (like name:en,
On Sunday 16 September 2018, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 1:23 AM Christoph Hormann
wrote:
> > > Are you objecting to the idea of tagging places as well as
> > > boundaries? What about the protected area / aboriginal lands
> > > boundarie
spaces. But that is
obviously based on latin script dominance. Other scripts and to some
extent also latin script languages have different conventions. If you
have names in well distinguishable scripts a separator is often
unnecessary and uncommon.
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just a list of languages. If
this is just a question of typesetting rules that is the resposibility
of the map designer obviously but i have the impression this is also a
matter of local culture w.r.t. names and languages and that is
something that can and should be mapped.
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ible (i.e. that are planar and have a well defined inside
and outside) it is often not the most efficient way of representing
them.
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ware developers the need to learn what a
projection scale factor is, that is not an approach i would recommend.
But i am getting carried away...
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* that would more likely yield an efficient solution.
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ses and we typically map them depending on
this purpose.
Whatever tagging concept you choose you should document your plans and
discuss them with the local community beforehand to make sure your
plans are compatible with the mapping and tagging habits of the local
community.
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etail:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx0KuvkbvfQ
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in this
case 2:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/motorcycle:scale
This number could at least for key pages be used to show a warning that
a certain key is not well established.
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suitable place.
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to create
proposal pages instead of tag pages when inventing tags essentially
encourages wishful thinking about the meaning of tags instead of actual
documentation of the reality of use.
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the way to go is IMO to create more specific top level
tags (or use existing ones like the mentioned "disused:/abandonded:").
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ery unlikely that software developers are
going to open the can of worms of interpreting relations that have
other relations as members. Especially for tools that need to deal
with differential data updates like osm2pgsql.
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ultures world
wide without creating an imperialistic dominance of some cultures over
others.
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map them
> leads to other sources being used.
Exactly. We need to establish that there are things outside the scope
of OSM for which you need other projects to collect data about them.
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ast majority of mappers and developers in
OSM simply are from urban environments in Europe and North America
which brings an inherent bias with it. How well OSM-Carto manages to
fulfill its function to create a map for the whole OSM community to a
large extent depends on how well we manage to comp
=yes as a standalone tag or with
man_made=embankment + embankment=both or embankment=two_sided.
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ject could be useful. It would encourage
everyone to contemplate their replies more thoroughly and not engage in
back-and forth two person dialogs - for which this kind of mailing list
with a large number of subscribers is not really the ideal place.
--
ded.
Given that the reasons why we have and should keep the verifiability
principle have been discussed really extensively this all seems frankly
a bit opportunistic.
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properly assess this,
the block history of user ulamm:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ulamm/blocks
And the OSMF ban policy describing the procedures regarding such
actions:
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Ban_Policy
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d are not really a good medium to handle this
kind of topic.
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two -
maritime boundaries are never geometrically identical to water
polygons. The tag maritime=yes is exactly fitting here - this is to
indicate a water polygon ecologically belongs to the maritime domain.
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lity and willingness in those fields to
yield decision making to others who are more qualified.
This is evidently something that is becoming more and more important as
OSM grows as a project and it becomes increasingly difficult for a
single person to be knowledgable about every aspect of it.
On Friday 24 May 2019, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> On 5/24/19 6:04 AM, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> > This is evidently something that is becoming more and more
> > important as OSM grows as a project and it becomes increasingly
> > difficult for a single person to be knowledgab
ere - i have said what i said and
not what you have read into that.
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what conditions you have to
fulfill is very helpful in encouraging people taking the initiative to
start such a project.
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rom Cape Horn to
the closest point in the Antarctic (on the South Shetland Islands).
But as already hinted i am not sure if the Drake Passage is something i
would consider mappable in OSM based on local knowledge. Of course as
long as it was mapped with a simple node it did not really bother
a
images to resolve the situation or we can consult
people with local knowledge.
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le to verbally communicate with each other
is quite remarkable. But this amazing cross cultural cooperation
hinges on on the local verifiability of those things people map.
Adding large scale concepts to the database that are not verifiable
based on local knowledge means throwing a wrench into the
of the geographic reality as you see
it and i also see why you have a general preference for representing
these things in the OSM database with polygons. But i also see very
good reasons why you should change your position on that - some of
which i explained in my comments here. I could be
nt - you verify the information on the ground and if there is
still disagreement it is by definition something that is not verifiable
(because several mappers evaluating the situation independently do not
consistently come to the same results).
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ink it helps concentrating on the arguments and not so
much on the people who make them.
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ight, inner radius and outer
radius.
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ction
between 'legal' real world stairs and ones that might exist but are not
allowed to exist because the algorithm can't deal with them.
But in general testing the suitability of a data model by testing its
usability in practical interpretation is a good approach.
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placement for formulating the
general abstract idea behind verifiability in a compact form that is
not tied to specific examples. Andy's idea of creating subpages
explaining how to practically apply verifiability to tags and
geometries is probably the right approach.
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d of course the suggestion that proper and precise
documentation helps applies to recording of geometries as well - not
only to tags.
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On Sunday 28 April 2019, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> [...]
>
> Seriously?
>
> Because one polygon is not a verifiable representation of a certain
> feature you want to replace it with - drumroll - two polygons?
I am sorry if that came across more dismissive than necessary - i was
y of mappers
live in regions where these are rare. But the way to address this is
to develop tags for specific features and not a general 'barren areas'
tag that encompasses also several specific and well established tags we
already have.
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and tight definition for them and not a generic tag
for any elevated region.
In any case i think the most valuable thing to map of any of such is the
constituent elements and aspects of it like natural=cliff,
natural=arete, natural=peak, natural=bare_rock, natural=scree etc.
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ural=mesa with
appropriately tight definitions: Both being surrounded on all sides by
cliffs or very steep slopes, buttes with a height larger than width and
mesas with a flat top (i.e. height variation across the top being
significantly smaller than the total height).
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d an alternative would be invented.
But it should be used as sparsely as possible to make the data as
meaningful as possible.
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o
define it more precisely it would almost certainly be advisable to use
a different tag that is not misleading the mapper to have a much
broader scope.
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sily found by other mappers that would massively emphasize tag
proliferation since mappers will repeatedly invent new and different
tags for certain things because they are unaware that another mapper
has already invented a tag for this.
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fining element of a beach.
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l defined and
intuitively usable mapping scheme.
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the
wiki no matter where it is and remove everything that is not strictly
documenting the de facto meaning of tags in the OSM database the result
would be a pretty compact body of documentation.
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+ landuse:secondary=meadow
* creating one or more region specific secondary tags for exising
primary tags like landuse=farmland or landuse=orchard for documenting
the region specific ecological characteristics of the area.
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ee:
* presence and nature of regular passenger flight service
* openness to public from the air
* access restrictions on the ground
* presence of services for airplanes
* surface and length of the runway
And not in the proposal but a useful property:
* restrictions to certain types of p
country OTOH i would consider
that simply a bad idea.
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storic development that might
be technically challenging).
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rast to the verbalized
documentation of tags - which can exist in any language or set of
languages independent of each others the idea of a tag status is that
of a single status defined by authority over the global OSM community.
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to determine an
aggregate score of some sort from them and a categorization based on
that.
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uilding them from the same coastline ways that are used to map the
individual islands is the established method for mapping them.
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n blame it on the
corporations/organizations that have lobbied successfully against more
meaningful regulation of said activities.
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exist.
Reason for the lack of verifiability is that what an active volcano is
in almost all uses of this term does not depend on the current state of
the volcano but on its history - most commonly during the holocene (10k
years) or during historic times.
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ing hedges with polygons in the first place - as i
have shown with various links earlier.
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t;
> Ummm, wasn't me. I don't recall seeing another Paul post on this on
> the tagging list, but I don't always pay full attention to the
> identities of posters.
Oh, sorry - i meant Paul Norman on the OSM-Carto issue tracker.
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=ditch, leisure=playground, area=yes
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turning a closed way tagged barrier=hedge + area=yes into a
multipolygon releation (for adding an interior ring) change rendering?
* why does removing the unnecessary area=yes from a closed way tagged
barrier=hedge + area=yes + leisure=playground change the ren
way. That would mean following Paul's
suggestion here and dropping rendering of barrier=* on polygons all
together.
Do you think this would be an improvement compared to the current
rendering?
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ng and we now get criticized for trying to fix this
counterproductive incentive.
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barriers again but it might be a better idea - as Joseph
indicated - to use a different tag than for linear barriers to avoid
confusion. Using the same tag for 1d and 2d representations always
bears the potential for problems (like leisure=track for example).
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new tagging.
We always try to avoid that because it never works towards a more
consistent tagging but only perpetualizes the use of both tags as
synonyms because mappers get feedback that both tags are correct.
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i means the only alternative that has
even a remote chance for consensus among the maintainers.
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umarole, natural=hot_spring etc.).
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rg/#map=15/48.8437/6.2252
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/52.8414/8.4571
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/53.9644/11.0538
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/51.9532/-0.1199
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/44.8335/40.0695
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ve for those if it is being
used consistently by mappers.
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cal reasons.
Therefore i did not pursue it further. But anyone is welcome to take
it up again.
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he major consensus narrative of the mapper's
culture.
I have written in more detail about the problems of this idea some time
ago in
http://blog.imagico.de/verifiability-and-the-wikipediarization-of-openstreetmap/
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IMO not specific to name
tagging but more about a fairly fundamental division within the OSM
community about the basic premise of the project.
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tags that already indicate things you have
formulated. Invent new tags when needed. Clarify documentation of
existing tags when needed.
The third step - formulating your classification in abstract form
*before* you assess if existing tags are suitable - is key here.
e shore over the course of the year as long as their perspective
is not dominated by political considerations (i.e. they are able to
look at this purely from a physical geography perspective).
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