Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[John Willis]

On Feb 18, 2017, at 5:39 PM, David Bannon  wrote:

>>> detail, as this is quite volatile data, and there are often lots of 
>>> different options
> 
> Yes, I strongly agree Martin. A far better approach would be to include a 
> link to an authoritative source.

+1

I think mapping the vending machines will require mapping roughly what type of 
transport option they vend- passes, tickets, plans, as there are easily mapped 
machines that cater to different types of items in proximity to each other in a 
station (banks of ticket machines at each entrance, with a fare adjustment 
machine and pass management machine only near one gate). The location of the 
machines should be mapped.

Linking to a source that details what those options are vended is best. ___
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[David Bannon]

On 18/02/17 18:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

...a 'ticket' could be 'single use, with the option of a return journey, for a 
set distance or place'.
...a 'card' could be 'multiple use, no set time or distance, limited by the 
amount on the card'?
...a 'pass' could be for a planned trip over a set route?


I suggest not to get into this level of detail, as this is quite volatile data, 
and there are often lots of different options
Yes, I strongly agree Martin. A far better approach would be to include 
a link to an authoritative source.  Just about all of these services 
have their own website. And its someones job to keep the information 
current !


Please see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:website

David

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17 Feb 2017, at 10:28, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> a 'ticket' could be 'single use, with the option of a return journey, for a 
> set distance or place'.
> a 'card' could be 'multiple use, no set time or distance, limited by the 
> amount on the card'?
> a 'pass' could be for a planned trip over a set route?


I suggest not to get into this level of detail, as this is quite volatile data, 
and there are often lots of different options and combinations (e.g. 
48/72h/week with entrance to (some) museums, daily tickets, weekly tickets, 
monthly, yearly, transferable and not, with the possibility to take up to x 
people with you after 9.00am and on weekends, 4 ride-tickets, 10-ride-tickets, 
tickets for families, small groups, bigger groups, tickets for a total amount 
of km, tickets for unlimited or limited use within a zone, etc.)


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[John Willis]

> On Feb 17, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Humm maybe not..
> There is, or at least was, a 'Eurorail pass' for foreigners to enjoy access 
> to trips over a set period of time but open as to where they go.
> Arr there is a similar BritRail Pass too..

Same in Japan - JR pass for foreign visitors. 1 week unlimited travel. 

But this is not sold at a machine - you have to purchase through the embassy 
before your visit, as it is a huge discount (even at 800USD). I imagine these 
tourist passes are famous, but not the main use of the plans. Millions of 
people every day commute on prepaid time based cards and printed slips we are 
calling plans. 

Some places call passes "tickets" (like BART, with no station-to-station 
tickets (afaik), some places have tickets, prepaid passes, and prepaid "plan" 
tickets (Tokyo), So keeping the time-based tickets (even these tourist tickets) 
separate from passes or tickets might be a good idea. 

I am interested in add-fare/ fare adjustment machines, as well as pass refill 
machines you find at most major stations- I'll have to read the wiki.  This 
"plans" amenity is one of the other things to map as well. 

Javbw 



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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[Warin]

On 17-Feb-17 07:13 PM, Thomas Bertels wrote:

Le 16/02/2017 à 21:23, Warin a écrit :

On 16-Feb-17 11:53 PM, John Willis wrote:


On Feb 16, 2017, at 5:41 PM, Dalibor Jelínek  
wrote:


vending=public_transport_plans

Sounds like a long term ticket, though I would call it a pass.

Most students here in Japan use 3 month passes between 2 stations 
designated on their pass (digital or paper ones; Pasmo cards in 
Japan are these) and have to repurchased or renewed for another time 
period. This is separate from the "debit card" style of pre-paid 
cards (like a Suica card in Japan or a BART ticket in San Fran) that 
track money for individual fares. They are time based tickets that 
has unlimited use over a time (usually over a month) for a chosen 
route - so buying one is different than buying a single-use ticket.




I can see the use of "plan" (as it is a monthly, sessional, or 
yearly contract), but I have never heard it referred to as that. I 
would choose public_transport_long_term_pass or similar, but if it 
is in use and eventually documented and supported by mapping apps, 
then it should be fine.





There are only 75 of these .. ask the people who placed them in OSM 
for an answer as to what they mean by 'public_transport_plans".




There's the same kind of thing as the Pasmo card in Belgium. These are 
getting more and more common in different countries.
I've tagged these as public_transport_tickets as I thought that 
public_transport_plans could mean maps, but it probably means long 
term "ticket". After checking its use in Germany, France and 
Netherlands, I'm sure it doesn't mean maps.


I think public_transport_tickets and public_transport_plans should be 
combined, maybe under a different name. Both can be sold at the same 
machine.


I would think a 'ticket' goes back to the days of a cardboard 'ticket' 
... usually for a single journey or return (there and back).


A 'plan' might be better termed a 'pass'? That would get away from the 
confusion with a map.


These all need to be well documented on the OSMwiki so that mappers can 
use (and hopefully stick to them).


If these need to be combined (good) then public_transport_payment (or 
purchase) ... or something like that?
I would try not to use the same tag names again .. to ease migration and 
misuse...


And add the ability to specify if we can get a ticket, a card 
(rechargeable or not), a token, or if we can only recharge a card we 
already have.

+1

To me
a 'ticket' could be 'single use, with the option of a return journey, 
for a set distance or place'.
a 'card' could be 'multiple use, no set time or distance, limited by the 
amount on the card'?

a 'pass' could be for a planned trip over a set route?

Humm maybe not..
There is, or at least was, a 'Eurorail pass' for foreigners to enjoy 
access to trips over a set period of time but open as to where they go.

Arr there is a similar BritRail Pass too...

Dictionary time
Pass .. 67 meanings ! No 48b (yep b) a prepaid or free ticket which 
allows one to travel on public transport without paying on each occasion 
of travel.
So a 'pass' could be 'allows one to travel on public transport without 
paying on each occasion of travel'
Is a card then the same as a pass? Perhaps there as different kinds of 
'pass' .. just as there are different kinds of 'ticket'.






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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[Thomas Bertels]

Le 16/02/2017 à 21:23, Warin a écrit :

On 16-Feb-17 11:53 PM, John Willis wrote:


On Feb 16, 2017, at 5:41 PM, Dalibor Jelínek  
wrote:


vending=public_transport_plans

Sounds like a long term ticket, though I would call it a pass.

Most students here in Japan use 3 month passes between 2 stations 
designated on their pass (digital or paper ones; Pasmo cards in Japan 
are these) and have to repurchased or renewed for another time 
period. This is separate from the "debit card" style of pre-paid 
cards (like a Suica card in Japan or a BART ticket in San Fran) that 
track money for individual fares. They are time based tickets that 
has unlimited use over a time (usually over a month) for a chosen 
route - so buying one is different than buying a single-use ticket.




I can see the use of "plan" (as it is a monthly, sessional, or yearly 
contract), but I have never heard it referred to as that. I would 
choose public_transport_long_term_pass or similar, but if it is in 
use and eventually documented and supported by mapping apps, then it 
should be fine.





There are only 75 of these .. ask the people who placed them in OSM 
for an answer as to what they mean by 'public_transport_plans".




There's the same kind of thing as the Pasmo card in Belgium. These are 
getting more and more common in different countries.
I've tagged these as public_transport_tickets as I thought that 
public_transport_plans could mean maps, but it probably means long term 
"ticket". After checking its use in Germany, France and Netherlands, I'm 
sure it doesn't mean maps.


I think public_transport_tickets and public_transport_plans should be 
combined, maybe under a different name. Both can be sold at the same 
machine.
And add the ability to specify if we can get a ticket, a card 
(rechargeable or not), a token, or if we can only recharge a card we 
already have.



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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[John Willis]

> On Feb 16, 2017, at 10:27 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> Let me sum up the questions:
> 
> 1.1. do you prefer amenity=dispenser or amenity=dispensing_device?

If it is purely dispensing an item (straws, bags, flyers, umbrellas, then 
dispenser. There needs to be some way to tag "collector" as well (where you 
return a dispensed item in some occasions. Some are both (like an umbrella 
stand - take/leave one as you enter/exit a garden or park). 

String or twine
Shoe covers
Blankets
3D glasses
Condiments
Napkins
Utensils
Rulers
Pencils
"Samples" (a sample of a very large amount) 

> 
> 1.2. if we should introduce this, should we keep vending_machine or should it 
> be seen as a subclass of dispensing_devices?

Keep vending machine. It may be the same idea, but the mental idea of the job 
seems very different. 


> 1.3 if we introduce dispenser and the dispensing=* key, should we keep the 
> vending=* key or should it be comprised in dispensing=* ?

Good to keep them paired, so there is no confusion, so keep vending. 


> 
> 2. which tag seems best for automated parcel pickup / mail in? Current 
> proposals are:
> * amenity=parcel_station
> * amenity=parcel_machine
> * amenity=post_machine (in analogy to post office and post box)
> * amenity=self_service_parcel_counter
> * amenity=self_service_parcel_mail

Self_service_post_machine

Pickup / drop off. 

I would also add amenity=parcel_point or similar. Many convenience stores in 
Japan are now points where you can have a package delivered to instead of your 
house for certain parcel delivery services. 

For example, my wife and I needed to have some bulky supplies delivered to a 
school, but the school wouldn't accept deliveries, so we walked around the 
nearby convenience stores looking for one that was a delivery point for 
packages for the particular service we had to ship via. It would be nice to 
search for them in an app rather than on foot. They don't have a machine nor a 
counter, and you can't leave regular mail - you go up to the register as if you 
were buying food and they hand you your package after checking ID. There are 4 
different major delivery services in Japan, so there needs to be a way to 
denote which service is accepted. 



> 
> 3. for services, which tag fits well?
> * amenity=service_machine

Amenity=service_machine is acceptable. I imagine photo booth falls into this, 
along with shoe shine, golf ball cleaners, scales, etc. 
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[Warin]

On 16-Feb-17 11:53 PM, John Willis wrote:



On Feb 16, 2017, at 5:41 PM, Dalibor Jelínek  wrote:

vending=public_transport_plans

Sounds like a long term ticket, though I would call it a pass.

Most students here in Japan use 3 month passes between 2 stations designated on their 
pass (digital or paper ones; Pasmo cards in Japan are these) and have to repurchased or 
renewed for another time period. This is separate from the "debit card" style 
of pre-paid cards (like a Suica card in Japan or a BART ticket in San Fran) that track 
money for individual fares. They are time based tickets that has unlimited use over a 
time (usually over a month) for a chosen route - so buying one is different than buying a 
single-use ticket.



I can see the use of "plan" (as it is a monthly, sessional, or yearly 
contract), but I have never heard it referred to as that. I would choose 
public_transport_long_term_pass or similar, but if it is in use and eventually documented 
and supported by mapping apps, then it should be fine.




There are only 75 of these .. ask the people who placed them in OSM for an answer as 
to what they mean by 'public_transport_plans".



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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-16 14:21 GMT+01:00 Dalibor Jelínek :

> As I understand it “vending” means “selling” and I do not care if
>
> it is an item or service beeing sold.
>
> I think that you are proposing too strict rules here.
>



I am only citing from the wiki, which in the first (and only) sentence
states:
"A vending machine is a machine which dispenses items ... to customers
automatically, after the customer inserts currency or credit into the
machine."

I am not proposing any new rules here, this is what is documented in the
wiki and it seems reasonable / consistent with the use in natural language.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-16 14:10 GMT+01:00 Shawn K. Quinn :

> > * parcel_pickup;parcel_mail_in
> > * parcel_pickup
> > * parcel_mail_in
> > * elongated_coin
> > * locker
> > * rice_polishing
>
> * shredding




nice, we should add this to the service machines.


Let me sum up the questions:

1.1. do you prefer amenity=dispenser or amenity=dispensing_device?

1.2. if we should introduce this, should we keep vending_machine or should
it be seen as a subclass of dispensing_devices?

1.3 if we introduce dispenser and the dispensing=* key, should we keep the
vending=* key or should it be comprised in dispensing=* ?


2. which tag seems best for automated parcel pickup / mail in? Current
proposals are:
* amenity=parcel_station
* amenity=parcel_machine
* amenity=post_machine (in analogy to post office and post box)
* amenity=self_service_parcel_counter
* amenity=self_service_parcel_mail

3. for services, which tag fits well?
* amenity=service_machine

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[Dalibor Jelínek]

Well, I do not agree.

As I understand it “vending” means “selling” and I do not care if

it is an item or service beeing sold.

I think that you are proposing too strict rules here.

 

Regards,

Dalibor

 

From: Martin Koppenhoefer [mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:12 PM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and 
vending=public_transport_plans?

 

 

2017-02-16 14:05 GMT+01:00 John Willis <jo...@mac.com <mailto:jo...@mac.com> >:

For rice_polishing I understand that it is vending a "service" 



I agree, that's why it doesn't fit into amenity=vending_machine, because those 
are only for things vending "items".

Cheers,

Martin

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 02/16/2017 03:46 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> These don't fit well neither in "vending" nor in "dispensing" (because
> they provide a service and no item is dispensed):
> * parcel_pickup;parcel_mail_in
> * parcel_pickup
> * parcel_mail_in
> * elongated_coin
> * locker
> * rice_polishing

* shredding

Yes, there exist self-service paper/media shredders. The ones I know of
were up in Washington state but they were looking to expand.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-16 14:05 GMT+01:00 John Willis :

> For rice_polishing I understand that it is vending a "service"



I agree, that's why it doesn't fit into amenity=vending_machine, because
those are only for things vending "items".

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[John Willis]

> On Feb 16, 2017, at 6:46 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> elongated_coin

Ah - the flattened coin. 

I believe that belongs as well, as mentioned in the previous message. 
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 16, 2017, at 6:46 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> * rice_polishing

Coin operated rice polishers vend a service, and are a large machine that is 
used by the customer, about the size of a large drink vending machine. They are 
found in suburban/rural areas of Japan and are placed in a lot by the side of 
the road like a vending machine. 

There are also 10kg rice vending machines that sell pre-bagged rice that drop 
out of a machine like a giant bag of potato chips.

For rice_polishing I understand that it is vending a "service" - like a coin-op 
washing machine or massage chair - but they are usually stand-alone devices 
that are treated very similar to vending machines. And besides the customer 
dumping their rice in the top, is a fully automatic process and dispenses the 
polished rice into the customer's bag below. 

In some ways it is similar to the souvenir coin flattening machines - you 
supply the coin, and it rolls it into a shape and "dispenses" your altered 
coin. It requires no operator and is done for a fee at a small machine you 
would find in a similar place to a vending machine. And I would totally 
consider such a machine a vending machine. 

Javbw 


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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[John Willis]

> On Feb 16, 2017, at 5:41 PM, Dalibor Jelínek  wrote:
> 
> vending=public_transport_plans

Sounds like a long term ticket, though I would call it a pass. 

Most students here in Japan use 3 month passes between 2 stations designated on 
their pass (digital or paper ones; Pasmo cards in Japan are these) and have to 
repurchased or renewed for another time period. This is separate from the 
"debit card" style of pre-paid cards (like a Suica card in Japan or a BART 
ticket in San Fran) that track money for individual fares. They are time based 
tickets that has unlimited use over a time (usually over a month) for a chosen 
route - so buying one is different than buying a single-use ticket. 



I can see the use of "plan" (as it is a monthly, sessional, or yearly 
contract), but I have never heard it referred to as that. I would choose 
public_transport_long_term_pass or similar, but if it is in use and eventually 
documented and supported by mapping apps, then it should be fine. 

Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-16 9:41 GMT+01:00 Dalibor Jelínek :

> I have tried to document the tag vending=public_transport_plans used as an
> extension of amenity=vending_machine.
>
> This tag is a part of JOSM preset for a long time so it should be
> documented.
>
> But then I have reailized that I maybe do not understand this tag
> correctly.
>
>
>
> Do those plans mean maps?
>
> Or is it some kind of prolongation of pre-paid transport tickets (similar
> to cell phone plan)?
>



+1, agree it is ambiguous, but would suspect it is about prepaid tickets
(because some have payment tags).

I would also like to point out that a vending_machine is about vending, so
it should be able to process payments in some way (be it cash, credit
cards, voucher codes, rfid virtual money or whatever),  while the devices
set up to give things away for free are a different typology because
there's no way to process payments and the term "vending" does not apply.
This is also what the wiki says about amenity=vending_machine. We could use
the term dispenser and the scheme could be similar to vending machines:



* amenity=dispensing_device (or dispenser? Which do you prefer?)
* dispensing=...

btw., the tem "dispensing" would fit well for both types of devices.



Given sufficient support, we might also migrate the excrement_bags and
maybe some other ill-classified items from vending...

Let's take a look at the mostly used values in the vending key:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/vending#values


These don't fit well neither in "vending" nor in "dispensing" (because they
provide a service and no item is dispensed):
* parcel_pickup;parcel_mail_in
* parcel_pickup
* parcel_mail_in
* elongated_coin
* locker
* rice_polishing


This might also be dispensed rather than sold (like excrement bags, they
could also be sold, it depends):
* syringes



For the first group I'd propose to use 3 new "main tags":
1. parcel pickup / mail in (e.g. amenity=parcel_station or =post_machine or
=self_service_parcel_mail, etc. and subtags for pickup and outgoing)
2. services like elongated_coin, rice_polishing, shoe_polishing, massage,
scales ( http://farm1.static.flickr.com/9/77652112_8182668a04_m.jpg ), e.g.
amenity=service_machine
3. locker (there's amenity=luggage_locker and amenity=locker in use but no
public wiki docu)

Cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] amenity=vending_machine and vending=public_transport_plans?

[Dalibor Jelínek]

Hello,

I have tried to document the tag vending=public_transport_plans used as an
extension of amenity=vending_machine.

This tag is a part of JOSM preset for a long time so it should be
documented.

But then I have reailized that I maybe do not understand this tag correctly.

 

Do those plans mean maps?

Or is it some kind of prolongation of pre-paid transport tickets (similar to
cell phone plan)?

 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:vending%3Dpublic_transport_plans

 

 

Similar situation is with vending=telephone_vouchers

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:vending%3Dtelephone_vouchers

Are these vouchers refering to pre-paid coupons for fixed phones (calling
cards)?

Or is it a machine where you can top up your prepaid cell phone?

Or both?

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

Regards,

Dalibor

 

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