Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Oct 2018, at 21:48, bkil  wrote:
> 
> I have a habit of extending and improving the wiki whenever I can.
> However, I only do this when I am absolutely sure that I am not doing
> any damage, for example by altering meaning.
> 
> Retroactively clarifying an ambiguous, but widely used tag in the wiki
> is not a good idea.


+1, usually it is safer to raise an issue on the talk page, you shouldn’t 
change or restrict the meaning of established tags.
What should be done is updating and improving the documentation according to 
actual, significant usage.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Oct 2018, at 13:43, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> Note that "customers can" does not mean "customers must". It may mean that 
> one may buy
> 
> food and immediately leave or stay and eat at such place.
> 


I’d say for takeaway=only you cannot stay and eat there, for ‚yes‘ it could be 
but is not implied. The only places I know like these are delivery places where 
you can also order and take it away on the premises.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Re:

never heard of a restaurant before that does not allow
> taking away your food


In the USA, most fancy, sit-down restaurants will not allow customers to
order food “to-go” (American for takeaway). You have to sit down and eat
the meal on the premises.

But if you don’t eat it all, they will probably provide a container to take
it home

So there certainly are “takeaway=no” restaurants. Certainly any
“reservations only” restaurant would fit this description.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[bkil]

>> Indeed the wiki page describes places that should be tagged with 
>> takeaway=only:
> I disagree with that.
>
> Note that "customers can" does not mean "customers must". It may mean that 
> one may buy
> food and immediately leave or stay and eat at such place.
>

I understand this part of the *wording* in the wiki, but do note that
the entities entered the database much sooner and this wiki was born
after the fact and the two may not be 100% consistent.

Your understanding of the tag as taking values of yes/no/only seems to
be the same as the understanding I had until last week and maybe half
of the world. In essence this tag signals whether literally taking
meals away is allowed. Actually as noted above, I'm stunned by the
vast popularity of takeaway=yes, because it is meaningless in this
interpretation (never heard of a restaurant before that does not allow
taking away your food). So all in all, this understanding boils down
to takeaway=yes/only, where yes is the default.

Unfortunately, the other half of the world (okay, maybe the
proportions are off) interprets takeaway=yes/no with takeaway=no as
default. In this case, takeaway=yes signals whether the venue is a
takeaway kind of place ('take-out', 'to-go', 'carry-out'). "Takeaway
kind of places" usually have no chairs and some may not have tables
either. They are more akin to shops, but they offer self-made fresh
products or meals, sometimes cooking on order. I do know a few of
these places nearby. I simply added amenity=fast_food to these without
second thought, but they are really a different category compared to
sit-down places.

> Do you think that it should be explicitly mentioned in WIki description?
> If yes, consider adding it to the description.
>

I have a habit of extending and improving the wiki whenever I can.
However, I only do this when I am absolutely sure that I am not doing
any damage, for example by altering meaning.

Retroactively clarifying an ambiguous, but widely used tag in the wiki
is not a good idea. I have a fear that a large number of users
misunderstood the meaning of this tag. I think we should introduce a
new tag in place of this one and start using that consistently,
otherwise we can never clean up the database.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[Mateusz Konieczny]

6. Oct 2018 22:04 by bkil.hu...@gmail.com :


> Also, it is strange that takeaway is not mentioned on the wiki page of
> drive_through.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drive_through 
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drive_in 
> 
>




Feel free to edit page and add it. 


 

> Indeed the wiki page describes places that should be tagged with 
> takeaway=only:
>




I disagree with that.


 

> >>The key takeaway=* is mostly used with the value yes on eateries to 
> >>indicate that customers can purchase a meal to be consumed elsewhere. 




Note that "customers can" does not mean "customers must". It may mean that one 
may buy

food and immediately leave or stay and eat at such place.


 

> So `takeaway=yes` is being mistagged worldwide and is really meant to
> flag a kind of fast_food outlet where you can not consume your food in
> place, or at least there are no chairs to sit on? 




takeaway=only is supposed to cover places with only takeaway available.




Do you think that it should be explicitly mentioned in WIki description?




If yes, consider adding it to the description.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[bkil]

Well, drive_through=yes should implicate takeaway=yes and
drive_through=only should implicate takeaway=only in real life, so
takeaway=* is redundant in such a case.

Also, it is strange that takeaway is not mentioned on the wiki page of
drive_through.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drive_through
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drive_in

Indeed the wiki page describes places that should be tagged with takeaway=only:

>>The key takeaway=* is mostly used with the value yes on eateries to indicate 
>>that customers can purchase a meal to be consumed elsewhere. Other values in 
>>use are only and no. In American English, this is known as 'take-out', 
>>'to-go', and 'carry-out'.<<
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:takeaway

So `takeaway=yes` is being mistagged worldwide and is really meant to
flag a kind of fast_food outlet where you can not consume your food in
place, or at least there are no chairs to sit on? This should have
been probably put under another top level tag, something like
shop=meal/fast_food/etc.

Or should `takeaway=no` be understood simply as a place that does not
regularly keep plastic containers for purchases (though they would
probably pack away food into our own containers), and `takeaway=yes`
means that packaging materials are available?
On Sat, Oct 6, 2018 at 1:36 AM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 5. Oct 2018, at 21:12, bkil  wrote:
>
> I have yet to see a restaurant that
> declines to pack my meal for takeaway=* if I can't consume it on
> premise
>
>
>
> I believe initially the idea of this tag was takeaway=only
> then came the preset webforms.
> a common combination for takeaway=yes is drive-though=no
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/takeaway=yes#combinations
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 5. Oct 2018, at 21:12, bkil  wrote:
> 
> I have yet to see a restaurant that
> declines to pack my meal for takeaway=* if I can't consume it on
> premise


I believe initially the idea of this tag was takeaway=only 
then came the preset webforms.
a common combination for takeaway=yes is drive-though=no
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/takeaway=yes#combinations

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[bkil]

> I am not sure adding drinking_water on bars or pubs would do us a favor. For 
> one it might be up
> to the discretion of the current staff  how they respond to your request (and 
> could depend whether
> you have already consumed something there, know the barkeeper, are 
> accompagnied by babies or
> children, the staff has a good day or not, etc.).
>

This proposal is for tagging those premises who are *willing* to
provide free tap water unconditionally and who at the same time are
willing to advertise the said practice publicly.

There are various movements that can be joined. Also, the next
movement could very well be started on OpenStreetMap itself -
volunteers could refer to OSM when asking the owner for consent or the
owners themselves can add this information given a user friendly form.
This could also result in more mapping activity in general.

> There are also places that offer a drinking water tap with plastic cups or 
> water bottles so you can serve
> yourself without asking anybody. (e.g. first pillar here is an accessible 
> indoor fountain:
> https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/02/06/a0/ef/gelateria-palazzo-del.jpg
>  ),
> and this is quite different than having to ask the staff and depending on 
> their discretion. How will it be distinguished?
>

Well, my original proposal strives to differentiate this with
drinking_water=yes (for taps) and drinking_water=ask (if given by
staff), but you are the only one to support such a distinction up to
now. Others in this thread would like to use the same tagging for both
cases. Could you please give a bit reasoning regarding pro & contra of
making this distinction?

> Pubs and bars usually will have opening hours, while drinking_water on a 
> fountain is generally accessible 24/7.
> This can be seen from the data (combination with what), but it might be safer 
> to explicitly use distinct tagging (unsure myself).
>

If we add drinking_water=* tags to a given premise (together with
amenity=pub) on the same entity (node or area), it is expected that
the opening hour is the same. This means that if the pub is only open
between 18-24h, then we should expect that the drinking fountain will
not be accessible at noon or at any other time when the pub is closed.
If the tap resides in an open space, that means that opening_hours is
not shared between the two and they should be stored as separate
entities in OSM, one way for the area of the pub and its opening hour
(or a node somewhere within its boundaries) and another node
separately for the tap at its approximate location.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[bkil]

Thanks for the link. The situation was the same in Hungary between
1998-2009. As of 2018, it is not a legal obligation, thus it is up to
the owner to decide whether they offer tap water for free. The
reasoning is probably that overheads, dish washing and service is not
at all free, though most "mature" places "usually"  provide water if
asked nicely.

However, do observe the exact wording in the linked article:

>>All licensed premises in England and Wales are required by law to provide 
>>"free potable water" to their customers upon request.<<

This should be interpreted as drinking_water=customers, not
drinking_water=yes. As mentioned previously, we could start a table in
the wiki to document country wide defaults. It is realistic to assume
that users are able to cross check between such a table with the full
OSM geo database. This would greatly reduce redundancy.

We are badly in a need of such a mechanism anyway, because there are
many tags which are not very useful in many parts of the world. Just
looking at the forms of the iD editor, I can see many examples. One is
that public smoking has been banned or heavily restricted in Hungary
and many other countries, so amenities default to smoking=no (mostly
at designated outside areas only). I have yet to see a restaurant that
declines to pack my meal for takeaway=* if I can't consume it on
premise, but it may be different in other countries. And then let's
not open the can of worms of default road maxspeed=*
On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 2:54 PM Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
> In GB licensed premises have to provide free drinking water.
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39881236
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
> On 1 October 2018 10:11:08 BST, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Am Sa., 29. Sep. 2018 um 17:33 Uhr schrieb bkil :
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The best visibility for both venues and people should be via OSM
>>> itself. However, if we do not highlight these via specific tags, this
>>> visibility may be impaired. Renderers could be enhanced to highlight
>>> various tag combinations, like drinking_water on bars, restaurants,
>>> etc., though that is not ideal. Verification could also be made more
>>> difficult, because if I see drinking_water=yes on a pub, I need to
>>> first start looking for a vending machine/fountain/tap, if not found,
>>> ask for an accessible vending machine/fountain/tap from staff, if they
>>> don't know anything about those, then I ask whether they could
>>> manually refill my container.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not sure adding drinking_water on bars or pubs would do us a favor. For 
>> one it might be up to the discretion of the current staff  how they respond 
>> to your request (and could depend whether you have already consumed 
>> something there, know the barkeeper, are accompagnied by babies or children, 
>> the staff has a good day or not, etc.). There are also places that offer a 
>> drinking water tap with plastic cups or water bottles so you can serve 
>> yourself without asking anybody. (e.g. first pillar here is an accessible 
>> indoor fountain: 
>> https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/02/06/a0/ef/gelateria-palazzo-del.jpg
>>  ), and this is quite different than having to ask the staff and depending 
>> on their discretion. How will it be distinguished?
>>
>> Pubs and bars usually will have opening hours, while drinking_water on a 
>> fountain is generally accessible 24/7. This can be seen from the data 
>> (combination with what), but it might be safer to explicitly use distinct 
>> tagging (unsure myself).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
>
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 1. Okt. 2018 um 14:54 Uhr schrieb Philip Barnes <
p...@trigpoint.me.uk>:

> In GB licensed premises have to provide free drinking water.
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39881236
>



this is definitely not the default situation worldwide, but would it
prevent you from adding some of the proposed tags in the UK, given that
legal defaults which are not visible on the ground shall not be tagged
explicitly?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[Philip Barnes]

In GB licensed premises have to provide free drinking water.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39881236

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 1 October 2018 10:11:08 BST, Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:
>Am Sa., 29. Sep. 2018 um 17:33 Uhr schrieb bkil :
>
>>
>>
>> The best visibility for both venues and people should be via OSM
>> itself. However, if we do not highlight these via specific tags, this
>> visibility may be impaired. Renderers could be enhanced to highlight
>> various tag combinations, like drinking_water on bars, restaurants,
>> etc., though that is not ideal. Verification could also be made more
>> difficult, because if I see drinking_water=yes on a pub, I need to
>> first start looking for a vending machine/fountain/tap, if not found,
>> ask for an accessible vending machine/fountain/tap from staff, if
>they
>> don't know anything about those, then I ask whether they could
>> manually refill my container.
>>
>
>
>I am not sure adding drinking_water on bars or pubs would do us a
>favor.
>For one it might be up to the discretion of the current staff  how they
>respond to your request (and could depend whether you have already
>consumed
>something there, know the barkeeper, are accompagnied by babies or
>children, the staff has a good day or not, etc.). There are also places
>that offer a drinking water tap with plastic cups or water bottles so
>you
>can serve yourself without asking anybody. (e.g. first pillar here is
>an
>accessible indoor fountain:
>https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/02/06/a0/ef/gelateria-palazzo-del.jpg
>), and this is quite different than having to ask the staff and
>depending
>on their discretion. How will it be distinguished?
>
>Pubs and bars usually will have opening hours, while drinking_water on
>a
>fountain is generally accessible 24/7. This can be seen from the data
>(combination with what), but it might be safer to explicitly use
>distinct
>tagging (unsure myself).
>
>Cheers,
>Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Sa., 29. Sep. 2018 um 17:33 Uhr schrieb bkil :

>
>
> The best visibility for both venues and people should be via OSM
> itself. However, if we do not highlight these via specific tags, this
> visibility may be impaired. Renderers could be enhanced to highlight
> various tag combinations, like drinking_water on bars, restaurants,
> etc., though that is not ideal. Verification could also be made more
> difficult, because if I see drinking_water=yes on a pub, I need to
> first start looking for a vending machine/fountain/tap, if not found,
> ask for an accessible vending machine/fountain/tap from staff, if they
> don't know anything about those, then I ask whether they could
> manually refill my container.
>


I am not sure adding drinking_water on bars or pubs would do us a favor.
For one it might be up to the discretion of the current staff  how they
respond to your request (and could depend whether you have already consumed
something there, know the barkeeper, are accompagnied by babies or
children, the staff has a good day or not, etc.). There are also places
that offer a drinking water tap with plastic cups or water bottles so you
can serve yourself without asking anybody. (e.g. first pillar here is an
accessible indoor fountain:
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/02/06/a0/ef/gelateria-palazzo-del.jpg
), and this is quite different than having to ask the staff and depending
on their discretion. How will it be distinguished?

Pubs and bars usually will have opening hours, while drinking_water on a
fountain is generally accessible 24/7. This can be seen from the data
(combination with what), but it might be safer to explicitly use distinct
tagging (unsure myself).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[bkil]

I've separated the proposal for non-inclusive drink refilling from the
drinking water cases. Anticipating a discussion, I'm replying to part
of Tom's most recent insights in the new RFC here (unfortunately, I've
copied some extra parts there too that is relevant here instead):

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-September/039520.html



> It does not need much language either, handing the bottle and
> and a friendly look are usually self-explanatory and sufficient.
> I would support tagging the free tap-water refilling campaign as it is 
> apparently a litter-avoiding
> idea and presumably ground-verifiable
>

The owncup=* campaign sounds like an idea to combat waste as well.
However, if a shop is part of both owncup & water-refill campaigns at
the same time, handing over your bottle may result in unwanted
consequences like getting beer in it!

So you vote for the possibility that no extra tag/description should
be added along `drinking_water=yes` (instead of =ask/on_demand) to
indicate that staff is handing out water on request and not a vending
machine/tap?

> (by some sticker or so at the door?).
>

It is definitely verifiable as all of these venues have staff that was
instructed by management to serve water to all, so asking any of them
should yield a unified answer. Some of the dozens of campaigns listed
have printable stickers, but note that they should all be different.

The best visibility for both venues and people should be via OSM
itself. However, if we do not highlight these via specific tags, this
visibility may be impaired. Renderers could be enhanced to highlight
various tag combinations, like drinking_water on bars, restaurants,
etc., though that is not ideal. Verification could also be made more
difficult, because if I see drinking_water=yes on a pub, I need to
first start looking for a vending machine/fountain/tap, if not found,
ask for an accessible vending machine/fountain/tap from staff, if they
don't know anything about those, then I ask whether they could
manually refill my container. This sounds a bit more awkward than
ideal.

> As a side note, I am surprised it needs such a campaign. I was never refused 
> a filling of my water
> bottle, in various countries. Not in a pub while hiking, nor in an airport 
> cafe (behind security
> where carrying water is not allowed).
> tom
>

Although nobody would deny you a glass of water on a hot summer day if
you were dangerously dehydrated, not every restaurant would like to
degrade their atmosphere to a pass-through house by lines of
freeloaders if they are situated at a busy location. Those who
volunteer to join such a campaign anticipate this traffic and educate
their staff to welcome all passer-by as a matter of business.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20. Sep 2018, at 03:30, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> I see that the suggestions about "free refills" are included here because 
> there was some confusion about the use of "free_refill=yes" in central 
> Europe. The English word "refill" implies that it is the second time 
> something has been filled. Thus a customer may request that their glass be 
> filled again with the same beverage. 
> 


the same here in Europe, although it is not very common.



> I'd suggest a separate proposal page to discuss the free_refill=yes tag.
> 


+1, go for it ;)

cheers,
Martin 



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 20.09.2018 16:29, José G Moya Y. wrote:

Hi!
If we start mapping refill=soft_drinks;coffee... and so on, how would you map sites where some soft 
drinks are refillable and some are not?


I am strongly against tagging the business practice how often a _paid_ glass of beverage is being 
refilled (with cheaply produced unhealthy liquids anyway). This is close to a restaurant review and 
not a geographical property.


I would support tagging the free tap-water refilling campaign as it is apparently a litter-avoiding 
idea and presumably ground-verifiable (by some sticker or so at the door?).


As a side note, I am surprised it needs such a campaign. I was never refused a filling of my water 
bottle, in various countries. Not in a pub while hiking, nor in an airport cafe (behind security 
where carrying water is not allowed).  It does not need much language either, handing the bottle and 
and a friendly look are usually self-explanatory and sufficient.


tom

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[bkil]

Yes, something like that would do, although we still need to decide
the top level key to use, let me refer to it as "drink_refill" for
now. For example:
drink_refill=coffee;pear_drink;blueberry_drink;tea_unsugared_drink;ikea_cola

Although, it depends on how common these irregular places are. In
Hungary, any kind of drink refilling is very rare, so no amount of
tagging could be considered excessive (although drink_refill=yes would
be enough for us). However, if there are millions of places around the
world with odd exceptions, we need to improve the ergonomics. If this
is the case, we could devise a scheme like:
drink_refill=non_alcoholic
drink_refill:except=coca-cola;pepsi

Or there's even the well known conditional notation:
drink_refill:conditional=yes @ non_alcoholic; no @ (coca-cola;pepsi)

If it is rare, we may still consider an informal short-hard notation like:
drink_refill=soft_drinks;coffee
drink_refill:description=except Coca-Cola and Pepsi

Do you think one of these could work?

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 4:30 PM José G Moya Y.  wrote:
>
> Hi!
> If we start mapping refill=soft_drinks;coffee... and so on, how would you map 
> sites where some soft drinks are refillable and some are not?
> As an example, in Ikea the bottled unsugared top-brand cola drink (I don't 
> remember whether it is coke zero or pepsi max) can not be refilled, where the 
> unbottled sugared own-brand cola drink can be refilled.
> Would you tag Ikea as 
> "refill=coffee;pear_drink;blueberry_drink;tea_unsugared_drink;cola_sugared_drink"?
>
>
> El jue., 20 sept. 2018 14:25, bkil  escribió:
>>
>> Thanks for your local insights. I believe that the UK program called
>> "Refill" used the word in a different meaning as well, hence the key
>> `free_refill=*` could lead to confusion in the future.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refill_(scheme)
>>
>> Listing the semicolon-separated list of refillable beverages in the
>> value part of the tags sounds like a good idea.
>>
>> I like your take with `drinking_water=customers`, let me update my
>> proposal to this one.
>>
>> My original idea was to add `drinking_water=yes` as well to such
>> shops, but has received chilling responses so far.
>>
>> And do you think that a note to users may be warranted, like
>> `drinking_water:description="on request"`? A potential barrier may be
>> a tourist who does not speak the local language. She could definitely
>> use an unattended water tap either inside or outside the pub, but may
>> have trouble describing to the staff that she wants water but only the
>> free, non-mineral, non-carbonated variant so it will be free. They
>> could mix up the intention with the `owncup` campaign where you get a
>> discount when using your own cup/container for your orders. I imagine
>> pubs would gladly refill with premium content "by accident" in many
>> such cases, or at least I know countries where this would be
>> commonplace. I'll add this case to the description.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 3:32 AM Joseph Eisenberg
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > I see that the suggestions about "free refills" are included here because 
>> > there was some confusion about the use of "free_refill=yes" in central 
>> > Europe. The English word "refill" implies that it is the second time 
>> > something has been filled. Thus a customer may request that their glass be 
>> > filled again with the same beverage.
>> >
>> > I'd suggest a separate proposal page to discuss the free_refill=yes tag.
>> >
>> > In North America, free beverage refills are limited to "soft drinks" (aka 
>> > fizzy drinks / pop / soda / cola depending on dialect), tea and brewed 
>> > coffee. Alcoholic beverages, espresso and specialty coffee drinks, and 
>> > other specialty beverage are usually excluded. I don't recall every seeing 
>> > free refills of lemonade or fruit juice.
>> >
>> > So it would be sufficient to have free_refill=coffee/tea/soft_drink/yes/no 
>> > free_refill=yes would imply that all customers can get free refills on 
>> > coffee, tea and soft drinks, if all are offered. Or at a cafe that only 
>> > serves coffee and tea, free_refill=yes would mean free refills on coffee 
>> > and tea (since soft drinks are not available)
>> >
>> > Some places only offer refills for free on one category. For example, a 
>> > cafe or "diner" may only offer free refills of brewed coffee, while a fast 
>> > food restaurant often offers free refills of "soft drinks" but not coffee. 
>> > In this case the specific free_refill=coffee or free_refill=soft_drink 
>> > would be used.
>> >
>> > I don't think it is necessary to use a more complicated namespaced tag, 
>> > such as free_refill:coffee=yes, though that could be an alternative.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:00 AM Joseph Eisenberg 
>> >  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I’d suggest keeping it simple by using existing tags when possible.
>> >>
>> >> If a cafe or shop gives out free water for customers, tag the shop or 
>> >> cafe with “drinking_water=customers”. If i

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[José G Moya Y .]

Hi!
If we start mapping refill=soft_drinks;coffee... and so on, how would you
map sites where some soft drinks are refillable and some are not?
As an example, in Ikea the bottled unsugared top-brand cola drink (I don't
remember whether it is coke zero or pepsi max) can not be refilled, where
the unbottled sugared own-brand cola drink can be refilled.
Would you tag Ikea as
"refill=coffee;pear_drink;blueberry_drink;tea_unsugared_drink;cola_sugared_drink"?


El jue., 20 sept. 2018 14:25, bkil  escribió:

> Thanks for your local insights. I believe that the UK program called
> "Refill" used the word in a different meaning as well, hence the key
> `free_refill=*` could lead to confusion in the future.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refill_(scheme)
>
> Listing the semicolon-separated list of refillable beverages in the
> value part of the tags sounds like a good idea.
>
> I like your take with `drinking_water=customers`, let me update my
> proposal to this one.
>
> My original idea was to add `drinking_water=yes` as well to such
> shops, but has received chilling responses so far.
>
> And do you think that a note to users may be warranted, like
> `drinking_water:description="on request"`? A potential barrier may be
> a tourist who does not speak the local language. She could definitely
> use an unattended water tap either inside or outside the pub, but may
> have trouble describing to the staff that she wants water but only the
> free, non-mineral, non-carbonated variant so it will be free. They
> could mix up the intention with the `owncup` campaign where you get a
> discount when using your own cup/container for your orders. I imagine
> pubs would gladly refill with premium content "by accident" in many
> such cases, or at least I know countries where this would be
> commonplace. I'll add this case to the description.
>
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 3:32 AM Joseph Eisenberg
>  wrote:
> >
> > I see that the suggestions about "free refills" are included here
> because there was some confusion about the use of "free_refill=yes" in
> central Europe. The English word "refill" implies that it is the second
> time something has been filled. Thus a customer may request that their
> glass be filled again with the same beverage.
> >
> > I'd suggest a separate proposal page to discuss the free_refill=yes tag.
> >
> > In North America, free beverage refills are limited to "soft drinks"
> (aka fizzy drinks / pop / soda / cola depending on dialect), tea and brewed
> coffee. Alcoholic beverages, espresso and specialty coffee drinks, and
> other specialty beverage are usually excluded. I don't recall every seeing
> free refills of lemonade or fruit juice.
> >
> > So it would be sufficient to have
> free_refill=coffee/tea/soft_drink/yes/no free_refill=yes would imply that
> all customers can get free refills on coffee, tea and soft drinks, if all
> are offered. Or at a cafe that only serves coffee and tea, free_refill=yes
> would mean free refills on coffee and tea (since soft drinks are not
> available)
> >
> > Some places only offer refills for free on one category. For example, a
> cafe or "diner" may only offer free refills of brewed coffee, while a fast
> food restaurant often offers free refills of "soft drinks" but not coffee.
> In this case the specific free_refill=coffee or free_refill=soft_drink
> would be used.
> >
> > I don't think it is necessary to use a more complicated namespaced tag,
> such as free_refill:coffee=yes, though that could be an alternative.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:00 AM Joseph Eisenberg <
> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I’d suggest keeping it simple by using existing tags when possible.
> >>
> >> If a cafe or shop gives out free water for customers, tag the shop or
> cafe with “drinking_water=customers”. If it’s for anyone,
> “drinking_water=yes” is currently used. I don’t see a need for a new tag
> “drinking_water=ask”
> >>
> >> If there is a drinking fountain, water tap or bottle refill station in
> a shopping mall or building that has opening_hours, just use
> amenity=drinking_water plus opening_hours=* on the node. Man_made=water_tap
> or =drinking_fountain or =water_well can also be added to the same node for
> more detail.
> >>
> >> I believe amenity=drinking_water implies no fee, and public access, so
> these characteristics do not require explicit tagging
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 8:57 PM bkil  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I'd like to discuss three related proposals and two separate ones that
> >>> can be confused with the others. In all the below cases, the
> >>> availability is tied to the opening_hours of the containing POI.
> >>>
> >>> Five separate proposals could have been created, but I feel that the
> >>> concepts and words describe these are so close, it is best to have a
> >>> good overview.
> >>>
> >>> I'm open to suggestions both related to the tags themselves and how we
> >>> should structure and document this proposal in the wiki.
> >>>
> 

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[bkil]

Thanks for your local insights. I believe that the UK program called
"Refill" used the word in a different meaning as well, hence the key
`free_refill=*` could lead to confusion in the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refill_(scheme)

Listing the semicolon-separated list of refillable beverages in the
value part of the tags sounds like a good idea.

I like your take with `drinking_water=customers`, let me update my
proposal to this one.

My original idea was to add `drinking_water=yes` as well to such
shops, but has received chilling responses so far.

And do you think that a note to users may be warranted, like
`drinking_water:description="on request"`? A potential barrier may be
a tourist who does not speak the local language. She could definitely
use an unattended water tap either inside or outside the pub, but may
have trouble describing to the staff that she wants water but only the
free, non-mineral, non-carbonated variant so it will be free. They
could mix up the intention with the `owncup` campaign where you get a
discount when using your own cup/container for your orders. I imagine
pubs would gladly refill with premium content "by accident" in many
such cases, or at least I know countries where this would be
commonplace. I'll add this case to the description.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 3:32 AM Joseph Eisenberg
 wrote:
>
> I see that the suggestions about "free refills" are included here because 
> there was some confusion about the use of "free_refill=yes" in central 
> Europe. The English word "refill" implies that it is the second time 
> something has been filled. Thus a customer may request that their glass be 
> filled again with the same beverage.
>
> I'd suggest a separate proposal page to discuss the free_refill=yes tag.
>
> In North America, free beverage refills are limited to "soft drinks" (aka 
> fizzy drinks / pop / soda / cola depending on dialect), tea and brewed 
> coffee. Alcoholic beverages, espresso and specialty coffee drinks, and other 
> specialty beverage are usually excluded. I don't recall every seeing free 
> refills of lemonade or fruit juice.
>
> So it would be sufficient to have free_refill=coffee/tea/soft_drink/yes/no 
> free_refill=yes would imply that all customers can get free refills on 
> coffee, tea and soft drinks, if all are offered. Or at a cafe that only 
> serves coffee and tea, free_refill=yes would mean free refills on coffee and 
> tea (since soft drinks are not available)
>
> Some places only offer refills for free on one category. For example, a cafe 
> or "diner" may only offer free refills of brewed coffee, while a fast food 
> restaurant often offers free refills of "soft drinks" but not coffee. In this 
> case the specific free_refill=coffee or free_refill=soft_drink would be used.
>
> I don't think it is necessary to use a more complicated namespaced tag, such 
> as free_refill:coffee=yes, though that could be an alternative.
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:00 AM Joseph Eisenberg 
>  wrote:
>>
>> I’d suggest keeping it simple by using existing tags when possible.
>>
>> If a cafe or shop gives out free water for customers, tag the shop or cafe 
>> with “drinking_water=customers”. If it’s for anyone, “drinking_water=yes” is 
>> currently used. I don’t see a need for a new tag “drinking_water=ask”
>>
>> If there is a drinking fountain, water tap or bottle refill station in a 
>> shopping mall or building that has opening_hours, just use 
>> amenity=drinking_water plus opening_hours=* on the node. Man_made=water_tap 
>> or =drinking_fountain or =water_well can also be added to the same node for 
>> more detail.
>>
>> I believe amenity=drinking_water implies no fee, and public access, so these 
>> characteristics do not require explicit tagging
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 8:57 PM bkil  wrote:
>>>
>>> I'd like to discuss three related proposals and two separate ones that
>>> can be confused with the others. In all the below cases, the
>>> availability is tied to the opening_hours of the containing POI.
>>>
>>> Five separate proposals could have been created, but I feel that the
>>> concepts and words describe these are so close, it is best to have a
>>> good overview.
>>>
>>> I'm open to suggestions both related to the tags themselves and how we
>>> should structure and document this proposal in the wiki.
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Free_drinking_water_by_private_entities
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I see that the suggestions about "free refills" are included here because
there was some confusion about the use of "free_refill=yes" in central
Europe. The English word "refill" implies that it is the second time
something has been filled. Thus a customer may request that their glass be
filled again with the same beverage.

I'd suggest a separate proposal page to discuss the free_refill=yes tag.

In North America, free beverage refills are limited to "soft drinks" (aka
fizzy drinks / pop / soda / cola depending on dialect), tea and brewed
coffee. Alcoholic beverages, espresso and specialty coffee drinks, and
other specialty beverage are usually excluded. I don't recall every seeing
free refills of lemonade or fruit juice.

So it would be sufficient to have free_refill=coffee/tea/soft_drink/yes/no
free_refill=yes would imply that all customers can get free refills on
coffee, tea and soft drinks, if all are offered. Or at a cafe that only
serves coffee and tea, free_refill=yes would mean free refills on coffee
and tea (since soft drinks are not available)

Some places only offer refills for free on one category. For example, a
cafe or "diner" may only offer free refills of brewed coffee, while a fast
food restaurant often offers free refills of "soft drinks" but not coffee.
In this case the specific free_refill=coffee or free_refill=soft_drink
would be used.

I don't think it is necessary to use a more complicated namespaced tag,
such as free_refill:coffee=yes, though that could be an alternative.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:00 AM Joseph Eisenberg <
joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I’d suggest keeping it simple by using existing tags when possible.
>
> If a cafe or shop gives out free water for customers, tag the shop or cafe
> with “drinking_water=customers”. If it’s for anyone, “drinking_water=yes”
> is currently used. I don’t see a need for a new tag “drinking_water=ask”
>
> If there is a drinking fountain, water tap or bottle refill station in a
> shopping mall or building that has opening_hours, just use
> amenity=drinking_water plus opening_hours=* on the node. Man_made=water_tap
> or =drinking_fountain or =water_well can also be added to the same node for
> more detail.
>
> I believe amenity=drinking_water implies no fee, and public access, so
> these characteristics do not require explicit tagging
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 8:57 PM bkil  wrote:
>
>> I'd like to discuss three related proposals and two separate ones that
>> can be confused with the others. In all the below cases, the
>> availability is tied to the opening_hours of the containing POI.
>>
>> Five separate proposals could have been created, but I feel that the
>> concepts and words describe these are so close, it is best to have a
>> good overview.
>>
>> I'm open to suggestions both related to the tags themselves and how we
>> should structure and document this proposal in the wiki.
>>
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Free_drinking_water_by_private_entities
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I’d suggest keeping it simple by using existing tags when possible.

If a cafe or shop gives out free water for customers, tag the shop or cafe
with “drinking_water=customers”. If it’s for anyone, “drinking_water=yes”
is currently used. I don’t see a need for a new tag “drinking_water=ask”

If there is a drinking fountain, water tap or bottle refill station in a
shopping mall or building that has opening_hours, just use
amenity=drinking_water plus opening_hours=* on the node. Man_made=water_tap
or =drinking_fountain or =water_well can also be added to the same node for
more detail.

I believe amenity=drinking_water implies no fee, and public access, so
these characteristics do not require explicit tagging



On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 8:57 PM bkil  wrote:

> I'd like to discuss three related proposals and two separate ones that
> can be confused with the others. In all the below cases, the
> availability is tied to the opening_hours of the containing POI.
>
> Five separate proposals could have been created, but I feel that the
> concepts and words describe these are so close, it is best to have a
> good overview.
>
> I'm open to suggestions both related to the tags themselves and how we
> should structure and document this proposal in the wiki.
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Free_drinking_water_by_private_entities
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Free drinking water by private entities

[bkil]

I'd like to discuss three related proposals and two separate ones that
can be confused with the others. In all the below cases, the
availability is tied to the opening_hours of the containing POI.

Five separate proposals could have been created, but I feel that the
concepts and words describe these are so close, it is best to have a
good overview.

I'm open to suggestions both related to the tags themselves and how we
should structure and document this proposal in the wiki.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Free_drinking_water_by_private_entities

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