Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
My answer reflected on Paul's suggestion of introducing yet another term (fare=*) to more closely match common vocabulary. I wouldn't recommend merging tolls, sorry if you read it like that. On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 11:10 AM Colin Smale wrote: > On 2019-06-22 10:38, bkil wrote: > > If we step back a bit from our dictionaries, fee=* as a concept is > isomorphic to toll=* (and fare) in this context. > > > Only insofar as they indicate that the user has to pay. "Toll" has a > distinct meaning, in the UK at least, that it is (and needs to be) > sanctioned by law. > > > As all of them could > be understood by native speakers and fee=* covers a more general > category, it is clearly the better choice. If we consider our data > users, non-native speakers and learning curve, the less terms we use > in our vocabulary, the better. > > > "As simple as possible, but not simpler". Attributed to Albert Einstein, > and a philosophy I wholeheartedly embrace. If it is required to be able to > make the distinction between a charge levied based on a legal sanction, and > a charge simply levied by the owner because they feel like it, then the > subtle difference between "toll" and the other words is significant. If we > all agree that the distinction is not to be represented in OSM, then this > discussion is moot - call it something neutral like payment, fee, charge, > whatever. This process is called data modelling; the modelling aspect comes > from the fact that you have to make compromises, and you have to choose > which compromises to make according to what is important to you. Otherwise > you are just replicating reality at full scale, which defeats the point of > modelling. > > As this is OSM, it only takes one person to want to make this distinction > to unchain interminable discussions... > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:20 AM Paul Allen wrote: > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 01:33, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > The Oxford Dictionary says > > Toll : A charge payable to use a bridge or road. > > Yep. Also, in the UK, carries legal implications. Legislation is > required to require tolls on a > public highway. > > Fee : A payment made to a professional person or to a professional or > public body in exchange for advice or services. > > That's how I'd use it. Of course, ferries provide a ferry service, so fee > could be used. But I'd go > with something else: fare. We don't talk of rail tolls or rail fees, we > talk of rail fares. We don't talk > of air tolls or air fees, we talk of air fares. From OED online: "The > money paid for a journey on > public transport." > > -- > Paul > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
Colin Smale, this is a very wise thing to say. I think this is often a missing element in tagging discussions. Is there a tagging suggestion guidelines page on the wiki? If yes, this is definitely one point that should be added. And if not, maybe we (people on the mailing list) should create one: Not too set up rules, but just to get everyone on the same page regarding what a good tag design is. On June 22, 2019 11:03:31 AM GMT+02:00, Colin Smale wrote: >On 2019-06-22 10:38, bkil wrote: > >> If we step back a bit from our dictionaries, fee=* as a concept is >> isomorphic to toll=* (and fare) in this context. > >Only insofar as they indicate that the user has to pay. "Toll" has a >distinct meaning, in the UK at least, that it is (and needs to be) >sanctioned by law. > >> As all of them could >> be understood by native speakers and fee=* covers a more general >> category, it is clearly the better choice. If we consider our data >> users, non-native speakers and learning curve, the less terms we use >> in our vocabulary, the better. > >"As simple as possible, but not simpler". Attributed to Albert >Einstein, >and a philosophy I wholeheartedly embrace. If it is required to be able >to make the distinction between a charge levied based on a legal >sanction, and a charge simply levied by the owner because they feel >like >it, then the subtle difference between "toll" and the other words is >significant. If we all agree that the distinction is not to be >represented in OSM, then this discussion is moot - call it something >neutral like payment, fee, charge, whatever. This process is called >data >modelling; the modelling aspect comes from the fact that you have to >make compromises, and you have to choose which compromises to make >according to what is important to you. Otherwise you are just >replicating reality at full scale, which defeats the point of >modelling. > > >As this is OSM, it only takes one person to want to make this >distinction to unchain interminable discussions... > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:20 AM Paul Allen >wrote: >> On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 01:33, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: >> The Oxford Dictionary says >> >> Toll : A charge payable to use a bridge or road. >> >> Yep. Also, in the UK, carries legal implications. Legislation is >required to require tolls on a >> public highway. >> >> Fee : A payment made to a professional person or to a professional or >public body in exchange for advice or services. >> >> That's how I'd use it. Of course, ferries provide a ferry service, >so fee could be used. But I'd go >> with something else: fare. We don't talk of rail tolls or rail fees, >we talk of rail fares. We don't talk >> of air tolls or air fees, we talk of air fares. From OED online: >"The money paid for a journey on >> public transport." >> >> -- >> Paul >> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
On 2019-06-22 10:38, bkil wrote: > If we step back a bit from our dictionaries, fee=* as a concept is > isomorphic to toll=* (and fare) in this context. Only insofar as they indicate that the user has to pay. "Toll" has a distinct meaning, in the UK at least, that it is (and needs to be) sanctioned by law. > As all of them could > be understood by native speakers and fee=* covers a more general > category, it is clearly the better choice. If we consider our data > users, non-native speakers and learning curve, the less terms we use > in our vocabulary, the better. "As simple as possible, but not simpler". Attributed to Albert Einstein, and a philosophy I wholeheartedly embrace. If it is required to be able to make the distinction between a charge levied based on a legal sanction, and a charge simply levied by the owner because they feel like it, then the subtle difference between "toll" and the other words is significant. If we all agree that the distinction is not to be represented in OSM, then this discussion is moot - call it something neutral like payment, fee, charge, whatever. This process is called data modelling; the modelling aspect comes from the fact that you have to make compromises, and you have to choose which compromises to make according to what is important to you. Otherwise you are just replicating reality at full scale, which defeats the point of modelling. As this is OSM, it only takes one person to want to make this distinction to unchain interminable discussions... > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:20 AM Paul Allen wrote: > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 01:33, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > The Oxford Dictionary says > > Toll : A charge payable to use a bridge or road. > > Yep. Also, in the UK, carries legal implications. Legislation is required > to require tolls on a > public highway. > > Fee : A payment made to a professional person or to a professional or public > body in exchange for advice or services. > > That's how I'd use it. Of course, ferries provide a ferry service, so fee > could be used. But I'd go > with something else: fare. We don't talk of rail tolls or rail fees, we talk > of rail fares. We don't talk > of air tolls or air fees, we talk of air fares. From OED online: "The money > paid for a journey on > public transport." > > -- > Paul > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
On 22/06/19 18:38, bkil wrote: If we step back a bit from our dictionaries, fee=* as a concept is isomorphic to toll=* (and fare) in this context. As all of them could be understood by native speakers and fee=* covers a more general category, it is clearly the better choice. If we consider our data users, non-native speakers and learning curve, the less terms we use in our vocabulary, the better. +1. Unite them all under one tag? charge=yes/no/* ... (one ring to rule them all ... etc) On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:20 AM Paul Allen wrote: On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 01:33, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: The Oxford Dictionary says Toll : A charge payable to use a bridge or road. Yep. Also, in the UK, carries legal implications. Legislation is required to require tolls on a public highway. Fee : A payment made to a professional person or to a professional or public body in exchange for advice or services. That's how I'd use it. Of course, ferries provide a ferry service, so fee could be used. But I'd go with something else: fare. We don't talk of rail tolls or rail fees, we talk of rail fares. We don't talk of air tolls or air fees, we talk of air fares. From OED online: "The money paid for a journey on public transport." -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
If we step back a bit from our dictionaries, fee=* as a concept is isomorphic to toll=* (and fare) in this context. As all of them could be understood by native speakers and fee=* covers a more general category, it is clearly the better choice. If we consider our data users, non-native speakers and learning curve, the less terms we use in our vocabulary, the better. On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:20 AM Paul Allen wrote: > > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 01:33, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> The Oxford Dictionary says >> >> Toll : A charge payable to use a bridge or road. > > > Yep. Also, in the UK, carries legal implications. Legislation is required > to require tolls on a > public highway. > >> Fee : A payment made to a professional person or to a professional or public >> body in exchange for advice or services. > > > That's how I'd use it. Of course, ferries provide a ferry service, so fee > could be used. But I'd go > with something else: fare. We don't talk of rail tolls or rail fees, we talk > of rail fares. We don't talk > of air tolls or air fees, we talk of air fares. From OED online: "The money > paid for a journey on > public transport." > > -- > Paul > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 01:33, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > The Oxford Dictionary says > > Toll : A charge payable to use a bridge or road. > Yep. Also, in the UK, carries legal implications. Legislation is required to require tolls on a public highway. Fee : A payment made to a professional person or to a professional or > public body in exchange for advice or services. That's how I'd use it. Of course, ferries provide a ferry service, so fee could be used. But I'd go with something else: fare. We don't talk of rail tolls or rail fees, we talk of rail fares. We don't talk of air tolls or air fees, we talk of air fares. From OED online: "The money paid for a journey on public transport." -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
The Oxford Dictionary says Toll : A charge payable to use a bridge or road. Fee : A payment made to a professional person or to a professional or public body in exchange for advice or services. I would go with fee, keep tolls for roads + bridges. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
I've just checked 3 here in Australia - 2 car & 1 foot only. All 3 websites quote their "fares", but the 2 car ferries also make reference to "fees"! Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
Also FWIW, Washington State Ferries are considered part of the state highway system. For example: https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=47.17.080 "Fare" is more common than "toll" here ( https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/fares/) but I don't recall ever hearing "fee" in the context of a ferry. On Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 04:55 Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > I asked my wife (native American English speaker) how she would > describe a ferry that wasn't free. She thought of paying a fare first, > for foot ferries, but when pressed suggested that "Toll ferry" was > better than something with "fee" > > Searching online, I'm finding results for both "toll ferry" and "fee > ferry" from official ferry website, so it seems both terms are used in > parts of the Egnlish-speaking world. > > In Washington State, the regulations refer to "toll ferries" along > with "toll bridges": > https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Ferries/infodesk/faq/terms/ > > And this link from England refers to a "toll ferry": > https://www.roads.org.uk/articles/studland-motor-road/making-motor-road > > So it looks like this is a reasonable usage based on plain language. > > On 6/19/19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > > > > sent from a phone > > > >> Il giorno 19 giu 2019, alle ore 13:08, Martin Koppenhoefer > >> ha scritto: > >> > >> The term „toll“ applies to usage fees for roads, bridges and tunnels (I > >> think, I am not a native speaker though), it doesn’t seem right for a > >> ferry. > > > > > > I just noticed the wiki has exactly the same requirements for the toll > tag: > > „Use toll=* to indicate that a fee must be paid by general traffic to > use a > > road, road bridge or road tunnel.“ > > > > so clearly it doesn’t fit for ferries, and we shouldn’t suggest it in the > > wiki on the ferry page... > > > > Cheers, Martin > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
On 2019-06-19 13:49, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > I asked my wife (native American English speaker) how she would > describe a ferry that wasn't free. She thought of paying a fare first, > for foot ferries, but when pressed suggested that "Toll ferry" was > better than something with "fee" > > Searching online, I'm finding results for both "toll ferry" and "fee > ferry" from official ferry website, so it seems both terms are used in > parts of the Egnlish-speaking world. Based on my knowledge of the UK I would suggest that a legal footing is required to levy a toll. The bridges, tunnels and roads where a toll is called a toll are the subject of an Act of Parliament (which may be hundreds of years old). These routes are public highways, which means you can't stop people using them - hence the need for a special licence. (Actually motorways are technically not public highways, but that's a different issue.) That doesn't preclude private parties for charging for the use of private infrastructure, but that is just a "fee" or a "charge" or a "price" (but not a "toll").___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
I asked my wife (native American English speaker) how she would describe a ferry that wasn't free. She thought of paying a fare first, for foot ferries, but when pressed suggested that "Toll ferry" was better than something with "fee" Searching online, I'm finding results for both "toll ferry" and "fee ferry" from official ferry website, so it seems both terms are used in parts of the Egnlish-speaking world. In Washington State, the regulations refer to "toll ferries" along with "toll bridges": https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Ferries/infodesk/faq/terms/ And this link from England refers to a "toll ferry": https://www.roads.org.uk/articles/studland-motor-road/making-motor-road So it looks like this is a reasonable usage based on plain language. On 6/19/19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > sent from a phone > >> Il giorno 19 giu 2019, alle ore 13:08, Martin Koppenhoefer >> ha scritto: >> >> The term „toll“ applies to usage fees for roads, bridges and tunnels (I >> think, I am not a native speaker though), it doesn’t seem right for a >> ferry. > > > I just noticed the wiki has exactly the same requirements for the toll tag: > „Use toll=* to indicate that a fee must be paid by general traffic to use a > road, road bridge or road tunnel.“ > > so clearly it doesn’t fit for ferries, and we shouldn’t suggest it in the > wiki on the ferry page... > > Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
sent from a phone > Il giorno 19 giu 2019, alle ore 10:24, Mateusz Konieczny > ha scritto: > > I feel that toll tag is better as it is part of road structure. for me a ferry is not part of the road structure. The term „toll“ applies to usage fees for roads, bridges and tunnels (I think, I am not a native speaker though), it doesn’t seem right for a ferry. For a ferry, „fare“ seems the right term for the transportation ticket. A fee would be something additional to the fare. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
sent from a phone > Il giorno 19 giu 2019, alle ore 13:08, Martin Koppenhoefer > ha scritto: > > The term „toll“ applies to usage fees for roads, bridges and tunnels (I > think, I am not a native speaker though), it doesn’t seem right for a ferry. I just noticed the wiki has exactly the same requirements for the toll tag: „Use toll=* to indicate that a fee must be paid by general traffic to use a road, road bridge or road tunnel.“ so clearly it doesn’t fit for ferries, and we shouldn’t suggest it in the wiki on the ferry page... Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
For me, if none of those tags would already exist, I would say that toll is an infrastructure and shall be put where the toll is (booths, gates, automatic systems...) whereas fee is an attribute which denote that this amenity/road/ferry is not free to use.But as of today both are used, so I keep toll for highways and fee for nearly all other things such as toilets, parking...If I would have to map a ferry road, I would probably be lost also.LeTopographeFou De: 61sundow...@gmail.comEnvoyé: 19 juin 2019 12:21 PMÀ: tagging@openstreetmap.orgRépondre à: tagging@openstreetmap.orgObjet: Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag On 19/06/19 18:24, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: Is there some reason to prefer one of this two keys for tagging whatever ferry is a paid one? What do the cross channel ferries have for UK to France? Ha. They don't have a tag on them to indicate that payment is required. Not done on UK to Spain either... Not for England to Isle of Man Not for the Orkney ferries either Toll for England to Ireland I feel that toll tag is better as it is part of road structure. The wiki says either toll or fee. So use what you like. For recreational cruises fee may fit better but tagging it as route=ferry is tagging for renderer anyway. As far as popularity in data goes - both tags have at this moment basically the same popularity. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
On 19/06/19 18:24, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: Is there some reason to prefer one of this two keys for tagging whatever ferry is a paid one? What do the cross channel ferries have for UK to France? Ha. They don't have a tag on them to indicate that payment is required. Not done on UK to Spain either... Not for England to Isle of Man Not for the Orkney ferries either Toll for England to Ireland I feel that toll tag is better as it is part of road structure. The wiki says either toll or fee. So use what you like. For recreational cruises fee may fit better but tagging it as route=ferry is tagging for renderer anyway. As far as popularity in data goes - both tags have at this moment basically the same popularity. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag
Is there some reason to prefer one of this two keys for tagging whatever ferry is a paid one? I feel that toll tag is better as it is part of road structure. For recreational cruises fee may fit better but tagging it as route=ferry is tagging for renderer anyway. As far as popularity in data goes - both tags have at this moment basically the same popularity. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
