Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
2015-05-12 23:47 GMT+02:00 pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com: McDonalds are restaurants ! even they say this ! Fast food restaurants, if you ask me ;) yes, and fast food restaurants in OSM get the tag amenity=fast_food, while fast food take away only get addtionally the subtag takeaway=only. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
We're kind of circling back to the discussion from 2013. For example, see this talk page about the failed bread bakery proposal: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposal/bread_bakery IIRC, the main thing that came out of that was it became clear that different cultures have very different expectations of what goods they would find at a bakery. On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 4:34 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-05-11 17:10 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com: In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake them, right? :) I wouldn't tag a place as bakery which doesn't sell bread. This is also in line with the osm wiki: A *bakery* is a shop selling bread. Bakeries normally bake fresh bread on the premises. Normally also sell pastries, cakes, etc. Often do fresh sandwiches or baguettes. Often do decorated cakes. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbakery Besides that I am not really happy with the definition there, as it is very Britain / central European (German) centric. Baguettes or decorated cakes are particular kind of baked goods that won't be found all around the world in bakeries. The main purpose of a bakery is to make and sell bread. Whether they also sell pizza, or what kind of bread they sell, whether they also sell sweets, coca cola, milk, flowers, sunglasses or olive oil is secondary and should not (IMHO) appear in the main definition. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 3:34 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-05-11 17:10 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com: In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake them, right? :) I wouldn't tag a place as bakery which doesn't sell bread. This is also in line with the osm wiki: A *bakery* is a shop selling bread. Bakeries normally bake fresh bread on the premises. Normally also sell pastries, cakes, etc. Often do fresh sandwiches or baguettes. Often do decorated cakes. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbakery Besides that I am not really happy with the definition there, as it is very Britain / central European (German) centric. Baguettes or decorated cakes are particular kind of baked goods that won't be found all around the world in bakeries. The main purpose of a bakery is to make and sell bread. Whether they also sell pizza, or what kind of bread they sell, whether they also sell sweets, coca cola, milk, flowers, sunglasses or olive oil is secondary and should not (IMHO) appear in the main definition. Cheers, Martin And I would say the OSM wiki definition is wrong (and I tried to change it) and your experience is regional. I would tag a place selling only daily bread a bread store or bread bakery on first thought (just like the shops here refer to themselves in name and ads). In my region, a bakery foremost sells cakes, pastries, and/or specialty (dessert) breads, more often than not having no daily bread at all. If they mainly sell bread, bread is in the shop name to avoid confusion with what the general population thinks a bakery is. The country/region disagreements are why I threw up my hands on the proposal I created, knowing there was no agreement to be reached beyond the status quo definition. Despite citing current U.S. and British government, trade, business directory, and dictionary definitions baking a change, there were many that stuck with definitions that were more used in the first half of the twentieth century than now in England and the U.S.. During the debates it also became apparent a number of (but not all) web language translators also make the same mistake, using past rather than contemporary usages of some words. This terminology problem is the main reason I stopped recommending OSM to non-technical relatives and friends. I knew they would use current U.S. assumptions on what the terminology of the map meant and would be misled. I knew they would not use a map that, in their eyes, was inaccurate and sometimes flat out wrong. They are much better off using Google maps or Bing to find shops and services. This is also one of a few reasons why I largely stopped contributing to OSM: why pursue a scholarly effort that is of little use to the people I would most like to share my efforts with. Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 8:49 PM, Murry McEntire murry.mcent...@gmail.com wrote: This terminology problem is the main reason I stopped recommending OSM to non-technical relatives and friends. I knew they would use current U.S. assumptions on what the terminology of the map meant and would be misled. I knew they would not use a map that, in their eyes, was inaccurate and sometimes flat out wrong. They are much better off using Google maps or Bing to find shops and services. This is also one of a few reasons why I largely stopped contributing to OSM: why pursue a scholarly effort that is of little use to the people I would most like to share my efforts with. Murry This was the same issue that I was encountering with fast food vs restaurant distinction. A fast food for a typical person is either McDonald's/KFC or one of many kebab venues. On the other hand, I was told that amenity=fast_food is when you pay before consumption. This is quite wrong to me (are you going to include an asterisk quoting that definition when someone searches from an app?), as there is smooth distinction and I'd rather promote intermediate cases such as casual dining style restaurants. My bottom line is: 1) Don't reinvent the wheel. See how competitors have tackled a problem (Gonna elaborate very widely on that when I'll have enough examples and time to write). 2) Tag to users' expectations, not to your definitions. But the consequence would be a substantial reduction in the mailing list traffic :-P 3) Ontology should be simple and rather general. Being too particular while incomplete is a plague of current shop and services tagging system. Michał ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
On 12 May 2015 at 19:49, Murry McEntire murry.mcent...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 3:34 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-05-11 17:10 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com: In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake them, right? :) I wouldn't tag a place as bakery which doesn't sell bread. This is also in line with the osm wiki: A *bakery* is a shop selling bread. Bakeries normally bake fresh bread on the premises. Normally also sell pastries, cakes, etc. Often do fresh sandwiches or baguettes. Often do decorated cakes. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbakery Besides that I am not really happy with the definition there, as it is very Britain / central European (German) centric. Baguettes or decorated cakes are particular kind of baked goods that won't be found all around the world in bakeries. The main purpose of a bakery is to make and sell bread. Whether they also sell pizza, or what kind of bread they sell, whether they also sell sweets, coca cola, milk, flowers, sunglasses or olive oil is secondary and should not (IMHO) appear in the main definition. Cheers, Martin And I would say the OSM wiki definition is wrong (and I tried to change it) and your experience is regional. I would tag a place selling only daily bread a bread store or bread bakery on first thought (just like the shops here refer to themselves in name and ads). In my region, a bakery foremost sells cakes, pastries, and/or specialty (dessert) breads, more often than not having no daily bread at all. If they mainly sell bread, bread is in the shop name to avoid confusion with what the general population thinks a bakery is. The country/region disagreements are why I threw up my hands on the proposal I created, knowing there was no agreement to be reached beyond the status quo definition. Despite citing current U.S. and British government, trade, business directory, and dictionary definitions baking a change, there were many that stuck with definitions that were more used in the first half of the twentieth century than now in England and the U.S.. During the debates it also became apparent a number of (but not all) web language translators also make the same mistake, using past rather than contemporary usages of some words. This terminology problem is the main reason I stopped recommending OSM to non-technical relatives and friends. I knew they would use current U.S. assumptions on what the terminology of the map meant and would be misled. I knew they would not use a map that, in their eyes, was inaccurate and sometimes flat out wrong. They are much better off using Google maps or Bing to find shops and services. This is also one of a few reasons why I largely stopped contributing to OSM: why pursue a scholarly effort that is of little use to the people I would most like to share my efforts with. Murry The terminology issue would be solved by having an American language interface like there's French, German and English interfaces. Bakery is goods cooked in an oven, AFAIK. Subtags should explain what in each case is to be expected there. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
On 12 May 2015 at 20:50, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote: This was the same issue that I was encountering with fast food vs restaurant distinction. A fast food for a typical person is either McDonald's/KFC or one of many kebab venues. On the other hand, I was told that amenity=fast_food is when you pay before consumption. This is quite wrong to me (are you going to include an asterisk quoting that definition when someone searches from an app?), as there is smooth distinction and I'd rather promote intermediate cases such as casual dining style restaurants. Restaurant: sit down at tables in/near the premises and food is cooked to order Fast food: just a take-away service - and food is generally already cooked and kept warm ready to serve/eat. McDonalds are restaurants ! even they say this ! Fast food restaurants, if you ask me ;) -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
2015-05-11 17:10 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com: In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake them, right? :) I wouldn't tag a place as bakery which doesn't sell bread. This is also in line with the osm wiki: A *bakery* is a shop selling bread. Bakeries normally bake fresh bread on the premises. Normally also sell pastries, cakes, etc. Often do fresh sandwiches or baguettes. Often do decorated cakes. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbakery Besides that I am not really happy with the definition there, as it is very Britain / central European (German) centric. Baguettes or decorated cakes are particular kind of baked goods that won't be found all around the world in bakeries. The main purpose of a bakery is to make and sell bread. Whether they also sell pizza, or what kind of bread they sell, whether they also sell sweets, coca cola, milk, flowers, sunglasses or olive oil is secondary and should not (IMHO) appear in the main definition. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
2015-05-12 1:43 GMT+02:00 moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com: Blaspheme ! :p You shouldn't compare Haribo-type sweets which *are* mostly sugar with the deserts sold in a patisserie which can be relatively healthy blasphemy! Y ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
On 12 May 2015 at 03:26, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Minor nitpick: desserts are sweet foods, usually eaten at the end of a meal. Deserts are areas with little rainfall, and sparse or no vegetation. Bearing in mind this context - of general discussion rather than written text book - do you know 'desert' was not merely an accidental typo ? In a more formal setting, I'd have jumped on it too :) -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
TL;DR: off-topic, rant, noise On 12/05/2015, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote: On 12 May 2015 at 03:26, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Minor nitpick: desserts are sweet foods, usually eaten at the end of a meal. Deserts are areas with little rainfall, and sparse or no vegetation. Bearing in mind this context - of general discussion rather than written text book - do you know 'desert' was not merely an accidental typo ? In a more formal setting, I'd have jumped on it too :) Yes, just like the typos in croissant and viénoiserie from that same email (writen late at night), which John didn't pick on because they're not on the list of classic English mistakes that some people like to pick on. And while we're on language show-off mode, a French person (like me) would never misspell dessert for desert (except for typos) because in French the pronounciation differs and matches the spelling. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
I believe there is some overlap between the shop values confectionery pastry candy sweets shop=confectionery is used much more often than the other 3 (10K vs. 300 vs. 100 vs. 50) and is likely covering all of these, but is quite generic. For the very reason it can be used for both: pastry (baker's confections) and candy (sugar confections), it is often less useful IMHO (at least without subtag, which is currently not documented). often, because in some countries these tend to be distinct shops, but in other contexts there might be shops that are offering both kind. If you are looking for sugar confections or baker's confections, finding a shop that only sells the other variant of confections will not be helpful but rather a big annoyance. From previous discussions on this matter I believe to remember that pastry is actually not covering the entire subset of baker's confections, so the term might be less appropriate. sweets is not very specific neither, is not defined in the wiki and can maybe cover both, candy and pastry, or might be a synonym for candy/sugar confections (I am not sure about this, would be nice to hear what the natives say). It also doesn't seem to add any additional information with respect to confectionery, so I would suggest to deprecate its use completely. I think we could deal with this situation in several ways: a) use confectionery, pastry and candy as competing top-level tags and suggest to be the most specific where possible (i.e. aim to have only mixed shops tagged with the generic confectionery tag and recommend the more specific pastry and candy tags where applicable). b) recommend to only use confectionery as the main top level tag and use subtags like bakers_confectionery=yes and/or sugar_confectionery=yes to make the distinction c) your suggestion here Personally I favor b). What do you think? Cheers, Martin For reference see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confectionery http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dconfectionery ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
On 11/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I believe there is some overlap between the shop values confectionery pastry candy sweets shop=confectionery is used much more often than the other 3 (10K vs. 300 vs. 100 vs. 50) and is likely covering all of these, but is quite generic. For the very reason it can be used for both: pastry (baker's confections) and candy (sugar confections), it is often less useful IMHO (at least without subtag, which is currently not documented). often, because in some countries these tend to be distinct shops, but in other contexts there might be shops that are offering both kind. If you are looking for sugar confections or baker's confections, finding a shop that only sells the other variant of confections will not be helpful but rather a big annoyance. From previous discussions on this matter I believe to remember that pastry is actually not covering the entire subset of baker's confections, so the term might be less appropriate. sweets is not very specific neither, is not defined in the wiki and can maybe cover both, candy and pastry, or might be a synonym for candy/sugar confections (I am not sure about this, would be nice to hear what the natives say). It also doesn't seem to add any additional information with respect to confectionery, so I would suggest to deprecate its use completely. I think we could deal with this situation in several ways: a) use confectionery, pastry and candy as competing top-level tags and suggest to be the most specific where possible (i.e. aim to have only mixed shops tagged with the generic confectionery tag and recommend the more specific pastry and candy tags where applicable). b) recommend to only use confectionery as the main top level tag and use subtags like bakers_confectionery=yes and/or sugar_confectionery=yes to make the distinction c) your suggestion here Personally I favor b). What do you think? My initial reaction was there's no overlap between pastry and confectionery, they are totally different things. Some cultural background: in France, shops selling candys are very rare, but shops selling pastries are very common because bread shops are everywhere and usually also sell pastries and danishes. Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But using shop=confectionery and refining that into raw sug^W^Wsubtags makes sense too. For the subtag itself, I'm not a fan of FOO_confectionery=yes: I think that confectionery=FOO follows established tag-creation best practices better. It's used a bit in the db already. And if one needs to tag multiple types, either confectionery=FOO;BAR or confectionery:FOO=yes confectgionery:BAR=yes works for me (but I prefer the later). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake them, right? :) On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 5:43 AM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I believe there is some overlap between the shop values confectionery pastry candy sweets shop=confectionery is used much more often than the other 3 (10K vs. 300 vs. 100 vs. 50) and is likely covering all of these, but is quite generic. For the very reason it can be used for both: pastry (baker's confections) and candy (sugar confections), it is often less useful IMHO (at least without subtag, which is currently not documented). often, because in some countries these tend to be distinct shops, but in other contexts there might be shops that are offering both kind. If you are looking for sugar confections or baker's confections, finding a shop that only sells the other variant of confections will not be helpful but rather a big annoyance. From previous discussions on this matter I believe to remember that pastry is actually not covering the entire subset of baker's confections, so the term might be less appropriate. sweets is not very specific neither, is not defined in the wiki and can maybe cover both, candy and pastry, or might be a synonym for candy/sugar confections (I am not sure about this, would be nice to hear what the natives say). It also doesn't seem to add any additional information with respect to confectionery, so I would suggest to deprecate its use completely. I think we could deal with this situation in several ways: a) use confectionery, pastry and candy as competing top-level tags and suggest to be the most specific where possible (i.e. aim to have only mixed shops tagged with the generic confectionery tag and recommend the more specific pastry and candy tags where applicable). b) recommend to only use confectionery as the main top level tag and use subtags like bakers_confectionery=yes and/or sugar_confectionery=yes to make the distinction c) your suggestion here Personally I favor b). What do you think? My initial reaction was there's no overlap between pastry and confectionery, they are totally different things. Some cultural background: in France, shops selling candys are very rare, but shops selling pastries are very common because bread shops are everywhere and usually also sell pastries and danishes. Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But using shop=confectionery and refining that into raw sug^W^Wsubtags makes sense too. For the subtag itself, I'm not a fan of FOO_confectionery=yes: I think that confectionery=FOO follows established tag-creation best practices better. It's used a bit in the db already. And if one needs to tag multiple types, either confectionery=FOO;BAR or confectionery:FOO=yes confectgionery:BAR=yes works for me (but I prefer the later). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
I would be more in favor of a+b) because you might want to tag a place with shop=pastry because 95% of their assortiment is pastry, but they have 5% candy so you add candy=yes. Janko pon, 11. svi 2015. 17:12 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com je napisao: In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake them, right? :) On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 5:43 AM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I believe there is some overlap between the shop values confectionery pastry candy sweets shop=confectionery is used much more often than the other 3 (10K vs. 300 vs. 100 vs. 50) and is likely covering all of these, but is quite generic. For the very reason it can be used for both: pastry (baker's confections) and candy (sugar confections), it is often less useful IMHO (at least without subtag, which is currently not documented). often, because in some countries these tend to be distinct shops, but in other contexts there might be shops that are offering both kind. If you are looking for sugar confections or baker's confections, finding a shop that only sells the other variant of confections will not be helpful but rather a big annoyance. From previous discussions on this matter I believe to remember that pastry is actually not covering the entire subset of baker's confections, so the term might be less appropriate. sweets is not very specific neither, is not defined in the wiki and can maybe cover both, candy and pastry, or might be a synonym for candy/sugar confections (I am not sure about this, would be nice to hear what the natives say). It also doesn't seem to add any additional information with respect to confectionery, so I would suggest to deprecate its use completely. I think we could deal with this situation in several ways: a) use confectionery, pastry and candy as competing top-level tags and suggest to be the most specific where possible (i.e. aim to have only mixed shops tagged with the generic confectionery tag and recommend the more specific pastry and candy tags where applicable). b) recommend to only use confectionery as the main top level tag and use subtags like bakers_confectionery=yes and/or sugar_confectionery=yes to make the distinction c) your suggestion here Personally I favor b). What do you think? My initial reaction was there's no overlap between pastry and confectionery, they are totally different things. Some cultural background: in France, shops selling candys are very rare, but shops selling pastries are very common because bread shops are everywhere and usually also sell pastries and danishes. Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But using shop=confectionery and refining that into raw sug^W^Wsubtags makes sense too. For the subtag itself, I'm not a fan of FOO_confectionery=yes: I think that confectionery=FOO follows established tag-creation best practices better. It's used a bit in the db already. And if one needs to tag multiple types, either confectionery=FOO;BAR or confectionery:FOO=yes confectgionery:BAR=yes works for me (but I prefer the later). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
There are Japanese non-baked confectioneries. (I believe similar confectioneries in other countries. esp. in Asia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagashi If we take only a) plan, I'm afraid of we could not represent cultural variations. +1 to Janko's a+b), and to express the specialty, moltonel's confectionery:FOO=yes confectionery:BAR=yes. 2015-05-12 0:24 GMT+09:00 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: I would be more in favor of a+b) because you might want to tag a place with shop=pastry because 95% of their assortiment is pastry, but they have 5% candy so you add candy=yes. Janko pon, 11. svi 2015. 17:12 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com je napisao: In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake them, right? :) On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 5:43 AM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I believe there is some overlap between the shop values confectionery pastry candy sweets shop=confectionery is used much more often than the other 3 (10K vs. 300 vs. 100 vs. 50) and is likely covering all of these, but is quite generic. For the very reason it can be used for both: pastry (baker's confections) and candy (sugar confections), it is often less useful IMHO (at least without subtag, which is currently not documented). often, because in some countries these tend to be distinct shops, but in other contexts there might be shops that are offering both kind. If you are looking for sugar confections or baker's confections, finding a shop that only sells the other variant of confections will not be helpful but rather a big annoyance. From previous discussions on this matter I believe to remember that pastry is actually not covering the entire subset of baker's confections, so the term might be less appropriate. sweets is not very specific neither, is not defined in the wiki and can maybe cover both, candy and pastry, or might be a synonym for candy/sugar confections (I am not sure about this, would be nice to hear what the natives say). It also doesn't seem to add any additional information with respect to confectionery, so I would suggest to deprecate its use completely. I think we could deal with this situation in several ways: a) use confectionery, pastry and candy as competing top-level tags and suggest to be the most specific where possible (i.e. aim to have only mixed shops tagged with the generic confectionery tag and recommend the more specific pastry and candy tags where applicable). b) recommend to only use confectionery as the main top level tag and use subtags like bakers_confectionery=yes and/or sugar_confectionery=yes to make the distinction c) your suggestion here Personally I favor b). What do you think? My initial reaction was there's no overlap between pastry and confectionery, they are totally different things. Some cultural background: in France, shops selling candys are very rare, but shops selling pastries are very common because bread shops are everywhere and usually also sell pastries and danishes. Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But using shop=confectionery and refining that into raw sug^W^Wsubtags makes sense too. For the subtag itself, I'm not a fan of FOO_confectionery=yes: I think that confectionery=FOO follows established tag-creation best practices better. It's used a bit in the db already. And if one needs to tag multiple types, either confectionery=FOO;BAR or confectionery:FOO=yes confectgionery:BAR=yes works for me (but I prefer the later). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
In the same way, there is a tradition of boiled cookies in the USA, that are on the borderline between cookies (biscuits, in British terminology) and candy. They involve a sticky, sweetened grain, most commonly oatmeal (rolled oats). Here is an example: http://dessert.food.com/recipe/no-bake-chocolate-oatmeal-cookies-23821 On May 11, 2015 10:47:43 AM CDT, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: There are Japanese non-baked confectioneries. (I believe similar confectioneries in other countries. esp. in Asia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagashi If we take only a) plan, I'm afraid of we could not represent cultural variations. +1 to Janko's a+b), and to express the specialty, moltonel's confectionery:FOO=yes confectionery:BAR=yes. 2015-05-12 0:24 GMT+09:00 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: I would be more in favor of a+b) because you might want to tag a place with shop=pastry because 95% of their assortiment is pastry, but they have 5% candy so you add candy=yes. Janko pon, 11. svi 2015. 17:12 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com je napisao: In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake them, right? :) On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 5:43 AM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I believe there is some overlap between the shop values confectionery pastry candy sweets shop=confectionery is used much more often than the other 3 (10K vs. 300 vs. 100 vs. 50) and is likely covering all of these, but is quite generic. For the very reason it can be used for both: pastry (baker's confections) and candy (sugar confections), it is often less useful IMHO (at least without subtag, which is currently not documented). often, because in some countries these tend to be distinct shops, but in other contexts there might be shops that are offering both kind. If you are looking for sugar confections or baker's confections, finding a shop that only sells the other variant of confections will not be helpful but rather a big annoyance. From previous discussions on this matter I believe to remember that pastry is actually not covering the entire subset of baker's confections, so the term might be less appropriate. sweets is not very specific neither, is not defined in the wiki and can maybe cover both, candy and pastry, or might be a synonym for candy/sugar confections (I am not sure about this, would be nice to hear what the natives say). It also doesn't seem to add any additional information with respect to confectionery, so I would suggest to deprecate its use completely. I think we could deal with this situation in several ways: a) use confectionery, pastry and candy as competing top-level tags and suggest to be the most specific where possible (i.e. aim to have only mixed shops tagged with the generic confectionery tag and recommend the more specific pastry and candy tags where applicable). b) recommend to only use confectionery as the main top level tag and use subtags like bakers_confectionery=yes and/or sugar_confectionery=yes to make the distinction c) your suggestion here Personally I favor b). What do you think? My initial reaction was there's no overlap between pastry and confectionery, they are totally different things. Some cultural background: in France, shops selling candys are very rare, but shops selling pastries are very common because bread shops are everywhere and usually also sell pastries and danishes. Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But using shop=confectionery and refining that into raw sug^W^Wsubtags makes sense too. For the subtag itself, I'm not a fan of FOO_confectionery=yes: I think that confectionery=FOO follows established tag-creation best practices better. It's used a bit in the db already. And if one needs to tag multiple types, either confectionery=FOO;BAR or confectionery:FOO=yes confectgionery:BAR=yes works for me (but I prefer the later). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
On 11/05/2015, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: W dniu 11.05.2015 18:18, Andreas Goss napisał(a): Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But is pastry = patisserie ? Yet another item just for sugar?... =} Blaspheme ! :p You shouldn't compare Haribo-type sweets which *are* mostly sugar with the deserts sold in a patisserie which can be relatively healthy (yes, you need to double-check with the boulangère). There's no sugar at all in the traditional croissant recipe, and the butter-less version is common. Come and visit some day, I'll bake you my no-sugar yes-beetroot brownie which is tastyer than the classic brownie :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
On May 12, 2015, at 12:47 AM, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote: There are Japanese non-baked confectioneries. (I believe similar confectioneries in other countries. esp. in Asia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagashi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagashi If we take only a) plan, I'm afraid of we could not represent cultural variations. +1 to Janko's a+b), and to express the specialty, moltonel's confectionery:FOO=yes confectionery:BAR=yes”. I guess there are Wagashi shops, but I never notice them. I usually see “desert bakeries” - little cakes and bigger cakes for sale (Mon Cherie?) and regular Japanese パンや “bread shops” selling curry-pan, melon-pan, and sliced bread and whatnot, and then “traditional sweets” shops, selling the little mint sticks, star candy, and other old style confectionaries. Aren’t the wagashi usually found at the “traditional” sweet shops? I have not seen a shop in Japan selling only modern candy (snickers bars, gummy snacks, etc) like you would find in a mall in America. my favorite dessert shop in japan is a big chain called “シャトレーゼ” Chateraise which is a cake bakery, Ice Cream Shop, and also sells cookies and their special wine via BYO bottle. http://www.chateraise.co.jp/products/itemcatelist.php If you want to segment up sweets, it might be a good idea to me more inclusive with other “prepared” desert items, like ice cream, ice cream cakes, and such - so confectionary would be part of a greater “desserts” category. シャトレーゼ: desserts:bakery_confections=yes desserts:cakes=yes desserts:sugar_confections=no desserts:gelatin=yes desserts:single_icecream=yes desserts:bulk_icecream=yes desserts:soft_serve=no desserts:shakes=no ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
On 11/05/2015, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But is pastry = patisserie ? To me it is, but deserts are very tied to the local culture, so I'm sure opinions will differ. http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/03/de/f0/35/el-tawhid-pastry.jpg http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/05/28/25/df/patisserie-richard.jpg Because the first image is what every bakery in Germany usually sells, too. But the 2nd one while you can often find some limited selection at bakeries, is what we usually buy at a Konditorei which has a much larger selecter with higher quality and looks like this: http://www.reschinsky.com/online/media/Torten_2.jpg A french patisserie will sell both kinds. A boulangerie will almost always also sell croisants (the first kind) even if it sells no other sweet stuff. For what it's worth, the first kind is generally refered to vienoiseries in France (where I come from) and danish pastry in Ireland (where I live). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
Minor nitpick: desserts are sweet foods, usually eaten at the end of a meal. Deserts are areas with little rainfall, and sparse or no vegetation. On May 11, 2015 6:17:08 PM CDT, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/05/2015, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But is pastry = patisserie ? To me it is, but deserts are very tied to the local culture, so I'm sure opinions will differ. http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/03/de/f0/35/el-tawhid-pastry.jpg http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/05/28/25/df/patisserie-richard.jpg Because the first image is what every bakery in Germany usually sells, too. But the 2nd one while you can often find some limited selection at bakeries, is what we usually buy at a Konditorei which has a much larger selecter with higher quality and looks like this: http://www.reschinsky.com/online/media/Torten_2.jpg A french patisserie will sell both kinds. A boulangerie will almost always also sell croisants (the first kind) even if it sells no other sweet stuff. For what it's worth, the first kind is generally refered to vienoiseries in France (where I come from) and danish pastry in Ireland (where I live). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But is pastry = patisserie ? http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/03/de/f0/35/el-tawhid-pastry.jpg http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/05/28/25/df/patisserie-richard.jpg Because the first image is what every bakery in Germany usually sells, too. But the 2nd one while you can often find some limited selection at bakeries, is what we usually buy at a Konditorei which has a much larger selecter with higher quality and looks like this: http://www.reschinsky.com/online/media/Torten_2.jpg __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
W dniu 11.05.2015 18:18, Andreas Goss napisał(a): Pastry-only shops are quite rare. See also shop=patisserie (62 uses). But is pastry = patisserie ? Yet another item just for sugar?... =} I was about to create an icon for shop=confectionery in default map style, because it looked like an easy thing with so high tag occurrence. Now I see the problem is complicated than only drawing the best I can: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1534 We may just choose tagging scheme like this and that, but I would also like to know which icon should be associated with each of suggested tags, so kind of a category tree (like candy is more specific than confectionery) would be very helpful. -- Piaseczno Miasto Wąskotorowe ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
