Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Mark Herringer]

I agree that the venue for a vaccination is not always in a clinic or
hospital. This is particularly true in rural Africa where access to health
services is poor.
Having the ability to indicate the presence of an
amenity=vaccination_centre seems to make the most sense.
When the facility closes the tag should be updated by the Logistics cluster.


ᐧ

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 23:39, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> The proposed new tag, vaccination= are available>, seems like a reasonable idea.
>
> However, it might be necessary to discuss a main feature tag to use in the
> case when these are not administered by a clinic or doctor's office or
> hospital.
>
> There does not seem to be a widely used, suitable tag under healthcare=*
> or amenity=* for a place that specializes in administering immunizations
> only.
>
> healthcare:speciality=vaccination is not a primary feature tag, but a
> secondary tag which needs to be added to something under the key amenity=*
> or healthcare=*.
>
> Perhaps amenity=vaccination_centre would work?
>
> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 9:30 AM Tom Pfeifer 
> wrote:
> >
> > Following the discussion on how to tag COVID-19 vaccination centres
> previously on this list,
> > I have created a proposal for the vaccination key:
> >
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/vaccination
> >
> > tom
> >
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-- 
Kind regards
Mark Herringer
www.healthsites.io
https://medium.com/healthsites-io
@sharehealthdata 
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Warin]

On 2/12/20 8:57 pm, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


Am Mi., 2. Dez. 2020 um 10:45 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
>:


In the UK it looks like the heath service (NHS) will contact
eligible individuals and probably arrange a time and place for
their vaccinations.

As such all that is needed is the location be in OSM and be mapped with the 
appropriate name, no further identification as a vaccine center would be 
required



again, this is an argument that could be applied to everything with a 
postal address. No need to include it in OSM any more.



Many places are well known by their names while their postal addresses 
are unknown by most.



The Tower of London? Way: Tower of London 370870741

The Sydney Opera House? Relation: Sydney Opera House 9596872

Same for the likely vaccination centres - known locally by their names - 
not their addresses.



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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 2. Dez. 2020 um 10:45 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> In the UK it looks like the heath service (NHS) will contact eligible
> individuals and probably arrange a time and place for their vaccinations.
>
> As such all that is needed is the location be in OSM and be mapped with the 
> appropriate name, no further identification as a vaccine center would be 
> required
>
>

again, this is an argument that could be applied to everything with a
postal address. No need to include it in OSM any more.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Warin]

On 30/11/20 10:21 pm, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 30. Nov 2020, at 10:46, Florian Lohoff  wrote:

Yes please - I can see planning coming up for vaccinations centers here
in Germany and these are not planned in hospitals but in vacant commercial
buildings which have loads of parking spaces. So using some
healthcare specific tag is probably misleading


healthcare is not related only to hospitals, vaccinations are clearly 
healthcare related. I agree that these facilities are candidates to be shown on 
general purpose maps, as a lot of people will be looking for them.



In the UK it looks like the heath service (NHS) will contact eligible 
individuals and probably arrange a time and place for their vaccinations.
As such all that is needed is the location be in OSM and be mapped with the 
appropriate name, no further identification as a vaccine center would be 
required

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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 30. Nov 2020, at 10:46, Florian Lohoff  wrote:
> 
> Yes please - I can see planning coming up for vaccinations centers here 
> in Germany and these are not planned in hospitals but in vacant commercial
> buildings which have loads of parking spaces. So using some
> healthcare specific tag is probably misleading


healthcare is not related only to hospitals, vaccinations are clearly 
healthcare related. I agree that these facilities are candidates to be shown on 
general purpose maps, as a lot of people will be looking for them.

Cheers Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Florian Lohoff]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 02:36:06PM -0800, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> The proposed new tag, vaccination= available>, seems like a reasonable idea.
> 
> However, it might be necessary to discuss a main feature tag to use in the
> case when these are not administered by a clinic or doctor's office or
> hospital.
> 
> There does not seem to be a widely used, suitable tag under healthcare=* or
> amenity=* for a place that specializes in administering immunizations only.
> 
> healthcare:speciality=vaccination is not a primary feature tag, but a
> secondary tag which needs to be added to something under the key amenity=*
> or healthcare=*.
> 
> Perhaps amenity=vaccination_centre would work?

Yes please - I can see planning coming up for vaccinations centers here 
in Germany and these are not planned in hospitals but in vacant commercial
buildings which have loads of parking spaces. So using some
healthcare specific tag is probably misleading.

These will be temporary things (Timeframe be years) but LOADS of people
will try to find it. And its a global issue.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
UTF-8 Test: The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away


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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Phake Nick]

I think it depends on where yoj exactly are at, in Hong Kong the government
established a few dozens indoor testing spots, tested a million people and
a half, and then shutting down the facility knowing its positive rate isn't
high.

在 2020年11月27日週五 01:25，Brian M. Sperlongano  寫道：

> This [1] testing site in my state opened back in July (five months ago)
> and is dedicated to COVID testing only.
> These sites[2] opened in May (seven months ago) and are still going
> strong.  They are co-located with a pharmacy (usually in the parking lot).
>
> While they may be "temporary" as in "when the pandemic is over, they will
> be disassembled and the area will revert to its natural state", we are
> already hitting the six month threshold that is usually offered as the
> minimum standard for permanence.  If anyone thinks they know how long these
> will be here, they are frankly just guessing.  These places are useful to
> tag, and they could be here for...months? a year or more?
>
> It's anybody's guess as to whether vaccination centers will follow a
> similar pattern as testing, but it is reasonable to figure out now, while
> the issue is topical, how such a thing should be tagged given the potential
> for a sufficient level of permanence.  Anti-vaccine sentiment is a real
> thing in the United States, and there is every reason to believe that a
> mass vaccination will start slowly and take months or more, and not just a
> few weeks as has been suggested.
>
> [1]
> https://www.providencejournal.com/story/news/coronavirus/2020/07/21/new-drive-up-coronavirus-test-site-opens-at-ri-convention-center/42521793/
> [2]
> https://www.providencejournal.com/news/20200528/cvs-to-open-10-new-coronavirus-testing-sites-in-ri
>
> On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 9:59 AM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 26 Nov 2020 at 02:35, stevea  wrote:
>>
>>> I'm in California, where it's almost cliché we love our cars and car
>>> culture, but it is true that not only here but in many USA states, we have
>>> "drive-thru" COVID-19 testing centers.
>>
>>
>> In the UK we don't have much of a drive-thru anything except maybe some
>> fast-food outlets of American origin.  Yet all the covid-19 testing
>> centres I'm
>> aware of are strictly drive-thru.  As in you're not allowed to turn up on
>> foot,
>> because if you're infected you may pass it on to other pedestrians you
>> walk
>> near.  And they're drive-thru because the swabs are taken in the open.
>> The swabs are taken in the open because there is far less risk of
>> transmission outdoors than indoors.
>>
>>
>>>   I would guess that vaccination centers that are also "drive-thru" are
>>> likely soon (early 2021?), too.
>>
>>
>> The same reasons that make the test centres drive-thru apply to
>> vaccination centres.  Eventually, when we have herd immunity
>> (one way or another) indoor vaccination may be feasible (but
>> probably undesirable).  The health workers will be vaccinated
>> first so they won't be at risk either way, but these places will
>> be handling large numbers of people and having them all wait
>> indoors is a good way of infecting lots of people.
>>
>>
>>>   These being mapped with "indefinite duration" seems a bit much (sorry,
>>> Brian), but they are usually more of a "pop-up" kind of thing:  one-time or
>>> "only on Saturdays" or something like that.
>>
>>
>> There is a temporary, short-duration, won't be there for long, test
>> centre just
>> popped up in my town because a couple of weeks ago some idiots decided
>> to celebrate the end of firebreak restrictions by going to the pubs and
>> ignoring social distancing completely.  Fifty-five cases came of that, and
>> three hundred contacts have been traced.  I expect it to go away in a few
>> weeks if the outbreak gets under control.  I'm not confident the outbreak
>> will be under control very soon because a lot of the celebrants were
>> shop workers.
>>
>> But as well as that pop-up test centre because of the sudden surge, there
>> is an existing test centre.  That's based at the leisure centre that was
>> converted to an emergency overflow hospital several months ago. I only
>> found out the test centre was there a few days ago because we try to
>> keep their locations secret, so I probably won't map it.
>>
>> Vaccination centres are going to handle more people than test centres
>> do because nearly the entire population will have to be vaccinated but
>> only a very small fraction of the population is tested (we ought to be
>> testing everyone at least once a week, but my country's government
>> is somewhat incompetent).
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Peter Elderson]

Mass testing without the strict isolation doesn't work, no matter how
important the sport or the person. Strict isolation (not 'bubbles') without
mass testing will work.
Anyway, It's almost done, then all temp structures and facilities will
disappear in favour of soon forgotten "quick response" plans.

Peter Elderson


Op do 26 nov. 2020 om 21:07 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com>:

> Am Do., 26. Nov. 2020 um 18:35 Uhr schrieb Peter Elderson <
> pelder...@gmail.com>:
>
>> Well, mass testing did not stop the virus anywhere, it just costs a lot,
>> drives people to despair and boosts the numbers.
>>
>
>
> this is off topic here, but apparently the Chinese have succeeded in
> stopping the pandemic there, by strict isolation and mass testing whenever
> a new case was discovered somewhere.
>
> Cheers
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 26. Nov. 2020 um 18:35 Uhr schrieb Peter Elderson <
pelder...@gmail.com>:

> Well, mass testing did not stop the virus anywhere, it just costs a lot,
> drives people to despair and boosts the numbers.
>


this is off topic here, but apparently the Chinese have succeeded in
stopping the pandemic there, by strict isolation and mass testing whenever
a new case was discovered somewhere.

Cheers
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

This [1] testing site in my state opened back in July (five months ago) and
is dedicated to COVID testing only.
These sites[2] opened in May (seven months ago) and are still going
strong.  They are co-located with a pharmacy (usually in the parking lot).

While they may be "temporary" as in "when the pandemic is over, they will
be disassembled and the area will revert to its natural state", we are
already hitting the six month threshold that is usually offered as the
minimum standard for permanence.  If anyone thinks they know how long these
will be here, they are frankly just guessing.  These places are useful to
tag, and they could be here for...months? a year or more?

It's anybody's guess as to whether vaccination centers will follow a
similar pattern as testing, but it is reasonable to figure out now, while
the issue is topical, how such a thing should be tagged given the potential
for a sufficient level of permanence.  Anti-vaccine sentiment is a real
thing in the United States, and there is every reason to believe that a
mass vaccination will start slowly and take months or more, and not just a
few weeks as has been suggested.

[1]
https://www.providencejournal.com/story/news/coronavirus/2020/07/21/new-drive-up-coronavirus-test-site-opens-at-ri-convention-center/42521793/
[2]
https://www.providencejournal.com/news/20200528/cvs-to-open-10-new-coronavirus-testing-sites-in-ri

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 9:59 AM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Nov 2020 at 02:35, stevea  wrote:
>
>> I'm in California, where it's almost cliché we love our cars and car
>> culture, but it is true that not only here but in many USA states, we have
>> "drive-thru" COVID-19 testing centers.
>
>
> In the UK we don't have much of a drive-thru anything except maybe some
> fast-food outlets of American origin.  Yet all the covid-19 testing
> centres I'm
> aware of are strictly drive-thru.  As in you're not allowed to turn up on
> foot,
> because if you're infected you may pass it on to other pedestrians you walk
> near.  And they're drive-thru because the swabs are taken in the open.
> The swabs are taken in the open because there is far less risk of
> transmission outdoors than indoors.
>
>
>>   I would guess that vaccination centers that are also "drive-thru" are
>> likely soon (early 2021?), too.
>
>
> The same reasons that make the test centres drive-thru apply to
> vaccination centres.  Eventually, when we have herd immunity
> (one way or another) indoor vaccination may be feasible (but
> probably undesirable).  The health workers will be vaccinated
> first so they won't be at risk either way, but these places will
> be handling large numbers of people and having them all wait
> indoors is a good way of infecting lots of people.
>
>
>>   These being mapped with "indefinite duration" seems a bit much (sorry,
>> Brian), but they are usually more of a "pop-up" kind of thing:  one-time or
>> "only on Saturdays" or something like that.
>
>
> There is a temporary, short-duration, won't be there for long, test centre
> just
> popped up in my town because a couple of weeks ago some idiots decided
> to celebrate the end of firebreak restrictions by going to the pubs and
> ignoring social distancing completely.  Fifty-five cases came of that, and
> three hundred contacts have been traced.  I expect it to go away in a few
> weeks if the outbreak gets under control.  I'm not confident the outbreak
> will be under control very soon because a lot of the celebrants were
> shop workers.
>
> But as well as that pop-up test centre because of the sudden surge, there
> is an existing test centre.  That's based at the leisure centre that was
> converted to an emergency overflow hospital several months ago. I only
> found out the test centre was there a few days ago because we try to
> keep their locations secret, so I probably won't map it.
>
> Vaccination centres are going to handle more people than test centres
> do because nearly the entire population will have to be vaccinated but
> only a very small fraction of the population is tested (we ought to be
> testing everyone at least once a week, but my country's government
> is somewhat incompetent).
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Peter Elderson]

Well, mass testing did not stop the virus anywhere, it just costs a lot,
drives people to despair and boosts the numbers. Anyway, as soon as
vaccination becomes common practice, COVID-19 is just another virus
disease  you can get vaccinated against in a regular way, same as others.
All the special facilities will disappear. OSM-forums will carry on the
debate whether they should be tagged as historic or abandoned until the
next pandemic.

Peter Elderson


Op do 26 nov. 2020 om 15:59 schreef Paul Allen :

> On Thu, 26 Nov 2020 at 02:35, stevea  wrote:
>
>> I'm in California, where it's almost cliché we love our cars and car
>> culture, but it is true that not only here but in many USA states, we have
>> "drive-thru" COVID-19 testing centers.
>
>
> In the UK we don't have much of a drive-thru anything except maybe some
> fast-food outlets of American origin.  Yet all the covid-19 testing
> centres I'm
> aware of are strictly drive-thru.  As in you're not allowed to turn up on
> foot,
> because if you're infected you may pass it on to other pedestrians you walk
> near.  And they're drive-thru because the swabs are taken in the open.
> The swabs are taken in the open because there is far less risk of
> transmission outdoors than indoors.
>
>
>>   I would guess that vaccination centers that are also "drive-thru" are
>> likely soon (early 2021?), too.
>
>
> The same reasons that make the test centres drive-thru apply to
> vaccination centres.  Eventually, when we have herd immunity
> (one way or another) indoor vaccination may be feasible (but
> probably undesirable).  The health workers will be vaccinated
> first so they won't be at risk either way, but these places will
> be handling large numbers of people and having them all wait
> indoors is a good way of infecting lots of people.
>
>
>>   These being mapped with "indefinite duration" seems a bit much (sorry,
>> Brian), but they are usually more of a "pop-up" kind of thing:  one-time or
>> "only on Saturdays" or something like that.
>
>
> There is a temporary, short-duration, won't be there for long, test centre
> just
> popped up in my town because a couple of weeks ago some idiots decided
> to celebrate the end of firebreak restrictions by going to the pubs and
> ignoring social distancing completely.  Fifty-five cases came of that, and
> three hundred contacts have been traced.  I expect it to go away in a few
> weeks if the outbreak gets under control.  I'm not confident the outbreak
> will be under control very soon because a lot of the celebrants were
> shop workers.
>
> But as well as that pop-up test centre because of the sudden surge, there
> is an existing test centre.  That's based at the leisure centre that was
> converted to an emergency overflow hospital several months ago. I only
> found out the test centre was there a few days ago because we try to
> keep their locations secret, so I probably won't map it.
>
> Vaccination centres are going to handle more people than test centres
> do because nearly the entire population will have to be vaccinated but
> only a very small fraction of the population is tested (we ought to be
> testing everyone at least once a week, but my country's government
> is somewhat incompetent).
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 26 Nov 2020 at 02:35, stevea  wrote:

> I'm in California, where it's almost cliché we love our cars and car
> culture, but it is true that not only here but in many USA states, we have
> "drive-thru" COVID-19 testing centers.


In the UK we don't have much of a drive-thru anything except maybe some
fast-food outlets of American origin.  Yet all the covid-19 testing centres
I'm
aware of are strictly drive-thru.  As in you're not allowed to turn up on
foot,
because if you're infected you may pass it on to other pedestrians you walk
near.  And they're drive-thru because the swabs are taken in the open.
The swabs are taken in the open because there is far less risk of
transmission outdoors than indoors.


>   I would guess that vaccination centers that are also "drive-thru" are
> likely soon (early 2021?), too.


The same reasons that make the test centres drive-thru apply to
vaccination centres.  Eventually, when we have herd immunity
(one way or another) indoor vaccination may be feasible (but
probably undesirable).  The health workers will be vaccinated
first so they won't be at risk either way, but these places will
be handling large numbers of people and having them all wait
indoors is a good way of infecting lots of people.


>   These being mapped with "indefinite duration" seems a bit much (sorry,
> Brian), but they are usually more of a "pop-up" kind of thing:  one-time or
> "only on Saturdays" or something like that.


There is a temporary, short-duration, won't be there for long, test centre
just
popped up in my town because a couple of weeks ago some idiots decided
to celebrate the end of firebreak restrictions by going to the pubs and
ignoring social distancing completely.  Fifty-five cases came of that, and
three hundred contacts have been traced.  I expect it to go away in a few
weeks if the outbreak gets under control.  I'm not confident the outbreak
will be under control very soon because a lot of the celebrants were
shop workers.

But as well as that pop-up test centre because of the sudden surge, there
is an existing test centre.  That's based at the leisure centre that was
converted to an emergency overflow hospital several months ago. I only
found out the test centre was there a few days ago because we try to
keep their locations secret, so I probably won't map it.

Vaccination centres are going to handle more people than test centres
do because nearly the entire population will have to be vaccinated but
only a very small fraction of the population is tested (we ought to be
testing everyone at least once a week, but my country's government
is somewhat incompetent).

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[stevea]

I'm in California, where it's almost cliché we love our cars and car culture, 
but it is true that not only here but in many USA states, we have "drive-thru" 
COVID-19 testing centers.  I would guess that vaccination centers that are also 
"drive-thru" are likely soon (early 2021?), too.  These being mapped with 
"indefinite duration" seems a bit much (sorry, Brian), but they are usually 
more of a "pop-up" kind of thing:  one-time or "only on Saturdays" or something 
like that.  OSM could use the opening_hours syntax to describe the "when" of 
these being available.  But let's be clear on whether they are "testing" or 
"vaccination" (I have seen the former, but not yet the latter, unless for the 
usually-winter flu, not COVID-19).

Whether these belong in the healthcare=* key, I don't know.  The testing or 
vaccination aspect both are certainly a form of healthcare.  However, while 
COVID-19 is new, and there is now testing, but not vaccination (I expect there 
will be), regular-old "flu vaccines" (not testing for it, but a vaccine 
injection) are and have been widely available for years.  These are often at 
"drugstores" (in the USA, these are a sort of large variety store that has a 
full pharmacy in the back), and once becoming established at being a place 
where one can get your usually-in-autumn-or-winter flu vaccination, often 
perform this service year after year.  Some even advertise that they are free:  
it may be that an insurance certificate / card must be provided, rarely, though 
sometimes, even this is not required, especially for elderly / senior citizens. 
 I hope this helps.

SteveA
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Joseph Eisenberg]

The proposed new tag, vaccination=, seems like a reasonable idea.

However, it might be necessary to discuss a main feature tag to use in the
case when these are not administered by a clinic or doctor's office or
hospital.

There does not seem to be a widely used, suitable tag under healthcare=* or
amenity=* for a place that specializes in administering immunizations only.

healthcare:speciality=vaccination is not a primary feature tag, but a
secondary tag which needs to be added to something under the key amenity=*
or healthcare=*.

Perhaps amenity=vaccination_centre would work?

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 9:30 AM Tom Pfeifer  wrote:
>
> Following the discussion on how to tag COVID-19 vaccination centres
previously on this list,
> I have created a proposal for the vaccination key:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/vaccination
>
> tom
>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

Unless somebody has a crystal ball, it's at least plausible that these
could be around for quite some time.  If we're lucky and they go away
quickly, it's easy enough to remove the tagging later.  But, "indefinite
duration" seems like a sufficient level of permanence for an OSM feature.

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 5:20 PM Peter Elderson  wrote:

> We (Nederland) will likely use the flu vac system of local practitioners
> and old people's homes to do groups at risk first, and health care
> personnel will take care of themselves while administering.Will take two to
> three weeks for the first shot, and if a second shot is needed, 6 weeks.
>
> The rest will probably need to apply, and I think the Covid testing
> facilities will be used for the mass vax. This will probably take months,
> mainly because of supply chain and cold chain problems. Everybody will
> turn into an opportunist, politicians will literally lose their voices
> because of all the yelling at each other. Then it will become a standard
> yearly vaccination and we will all return to normal. O, the stories we will
> tell our grandchildren when they really just want to hang out with each
> other and play games...
>
> Best, Peter Elderson
>
>
> Op wo 25 nov. 2020 om 22:33 schreef Paul Allen :
>
>> On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 20:01, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>>
>> Although in this case I would expect the approach to be to set up
>>> sessions for schools, universities and at larger employers and for the
>>> general population it will simply attend an appointment at their local
>>> medical centre.
>>>
>>
>> Even back in the Before Times, flu jabs were not given at the local
>> medical
>> centre but in a large exercise hall.  I think that was more to do with
>> numbers
>> than anything else.  Covid is more infectious than flu (but less so than
>> measles)
>> and the indications are strong that you're at a lot greater risk indoors
>> than
>> outdoors.
>>
>> I doubt that testing or vaccination will take place at local medical
>> centres.  All
>> the testing centres I know of, whether short-term or longer-term have the
>> testing conducted outdoors.
>>
>> Right now, because of a recent surge in cases in my town the medical
>> centre is only permitting people to turn up if they get an appointment
>> because it is "absolutely necessary" (their words, not mine) they see
>> a doctor.
>>
>> I've been paying a lot of attention to this stuff (because of underlying
>> health conditions which mean I'm very unlikely to survive it) and I
>> seriously doubt we'll see testing or vaccination conducted indoors
>> until all medical staff have been vaccinated and enough of the
>> general population have been vaccinated to achieve herd
>> immunity.
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Peter Elderson]

We (Nederland) will likely use the flu vac system of local practitioners
and old people's homes to do groups at risk first, and health care
personnel will take care of themselves while administering.Will take two to
three weeks for the first shot, and if a second shot is needed, 6 weeks.

The rest will probably need to apply, and I think the Covid testing
facilities will be used for the mass vax. This will probably take months,
mainly because of supply chain and cold chain problems. Everybody will
turn into an opportunist, politicians will literally lose their voices
because of all the yelling at each other. Then it will become a standard
yearly vaccination and we will all return to normal. O, the stories we will
tell our grandchildren when they really just want to hang out with each
other and play games...

Best, Peter Elderson


Op wo 25 nov. 2020 om 22:33 schreef Paul Allen :

> On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 20:01, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
> Although in this case I would expect the approach to be to set up sessions
>> for schools, universities and at larger employers and for the general
>> population it will simply attend an appointment at their local medical
>> centre.
>>
>
> Even back in the Before Times, flu jabs were not given at the local medical
> centre but in a large exercise hall.  I think that was more to do with
> numbers
> than anything else.  Covid is more infectious than flu (but less so than
> measles)
> and the indications are strong that you're at a lot greater risk indoors
> than
> outdoors.
>
> I doubt that testing or vaccination will take place at local medical
> centres.  All
> the testing centres I know of, whether short-term or longer-term have the
> testing conducted outdoors.
>
> Right now, because of a recent surge in cases in my town the medical
> centre is only permitting people to turn up if they get an appointment
> because it is "absolutely necessary" (their words, not mine) they see
> a doctor.
>
> I've been paying a lot of attention to this stuff (because of underlying
> health conditions which mean I'm very unlikely to survive it) and I
> seriously doubt we'll see testing or vaccination conducted indoors
> until all medical staff have been vaccinated and enough of the
> general population have been vaccinated to achieve herd
> immunity.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 20:01, Philip Barnes  wrote:

Although in this case I would expect the approach to be to set up sessions
> for schools, universities and at larger employers and for the general
> population it will simply attend an appointment at their local medical
> centre.
>

Even back in the Before Times, flu jabs were not given at the local medical
centre but in a large exercise hall.  I think that was more to do with
numbers
than anything else.  Covid is more infectious than flu (but less so than
measles)
and the indications are strong that you're at a lot greater risk indoors
than
outdoors.

I doubt that testing or vaccination will take place at local medical
centres.  All
the testing centres I know of, whether short-term or longer-term have the
testing conducted outdoors.

Right now, because of a recent surge in cases in my town the medical
centre is only permitting people to turn up if they get an appointment
because it is "absolutely necessary" (their words, not mine) they see
a doctor.

I've been paying a lot of attention to this stuff (because of underlying
health conditions which mean I'm very unlikely to survive it) and I
seriously doubt we'll see testing or vaccination conducted indoors
until all medical staff have been vaccinated and enough of the
general population have been vaccinated to achieve herd
immunity.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Philip Barnes]

On Wed, 2020-11-25 at 13:28 +, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 13:15, Phake Nick  wrote:
> > I don't thibk it is appropriate to add one-off temporary facilities
> > into OSM.
> 
> How temporary is temporary?  All of man's works eventually crumble
> and
> decay.  No man-made feature is permanent.  On a long enough
> timescale,
> no geological feature is permanent either.
> 
> We shouldn't map a one-off.  But such facilities are likely to
> operate for months,
> if not years.  Testing and vaccination facilities are generally not
> located in
> places like hospitals and doctors to minimize infection.  Often open-
> air
> for the same reason, which means they are going to be building=roof
> or building=marquee.  Most won't be constructed to last decades but
> will be there for many months.
> 
Although in this case I would expect the approach to be to set up
sessions for schools, universities and at larger employers and for the
general population it will simply attend an appointment at their local
medical centre.

Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

På Wed, 25 Nov 2020 13:34:24 +
Andy Townsend  skrev:

>As an aside, it's probably worth explaining why people sometimes say 
>that OSM isn't a place for one-off temporary things 

I mostly use OsmAnd. I update it every month, but that is of course
mostly because i want to my own edits.

I have added a lot of POI's. Mostly restaurants, cafes, bars etc.
Some are pop-up restaurants, beach bars that might not be there next
year, etc. Usually I add them because it is useful for users if they
have for example agreed to meet in a specific bar. If there are lots of
other options around there is little risk of annoying users.

If it is in the middle of nowhere, we should be more careful.

Currently everything in Denmark have to close at 22:00, but I leave
opening hours for bars and nightclubs that are open late and even add
later hours based on the establishments websites, because:
  1. offline use.
  2. I could not promise to revert them all back to normal then
  covid19 is over and I doubt that other mappers would.
  3. It could change any day to 20:00, 23:00 or something else.
  4. It would add no real information anyway because *everything* has
  to close at 22 and everyone here knows it.

Many places are closed because of covid19. I do not delete them but add
access:covid19=no

>(for example, a 
>music festival that usually happens over a couple of days, once a 
>year).

I see nothing wrong in mapping recurring events if they are tagged with
something like opening_hours=Jul Sa[2],Su[2]
or even:
 opening_hours="a weekend in august",website="https://xxx.example.org";

No one will be traveling to a music festival unless they know that it
is on. But if you are going there, it is useful to have in OSM.

>  The reasoning goes that although some people look at OSM data 
>"live", many do not.  Many (perhaps most) 3rd-party consumers of OSM 
>update only rarely, and by definition all offline apps show data as it 
>was at some point in the past. If the data that they grab happens to 
>coincide with a temporary event in OSM their users will be very
>confused.

Only if it is not tagged as a temporary event or with specific dates.

>There comes a point, of course, when a "temporary " thing is worth 
>mapping.  I've mapped https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/601820045 as 
>closed because it's been that way for a couple of years and (despite
>the council signage) is pretty unlikely to be sorted out in the next
>few weeks.

For me the most difficult to handle is roads.
I was just driving on motorways that had roadworks lasting to next
summer, changing max speed from 130 to 80. But other times I discover
low max speed from road work that was finished a long time ago.

I would like a good way to tell routers that for the next couple of
months to expect going at half speed on a stretch of road.

>At what stage something changes from a "one-off temporary" thing to 
>something definitely worth mapping is a question worth discussing,
>though.

I think that covid19 vaccinations centers are important enough.

We also have a lot of Olympic villages in OSM.

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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Andy Townsend]

On 25/11/2020 12:54, Phake Nick wrote:
I don't think it is appropriate to add one-off temporary facilities 
into OSM.


As soon as you do the sums it seems pretty unlikely that these will be 
"one-off temporary facilities".


Governments and health authorities may be able to move to a more 
"business as usual" vaccination approach (e.g. alongside things like TB 
or seasonal flu) in the fullness of time, but that's going to be at the 
absolute earliest the back end of next year.


As an aside, it's probably worth explaining why people sometimes say 
that OSM isn't a place for one-off temporary things (for example, a 
music festival that usually happens over a couple of days, once a 
year).  The reasoning goes that although some people look at OSM data 
"live", many do not.  Many (perhaps most) 3rd-party consumers of OSM 
update only rarely, and by definition all offline apps show data as it 
was at some point in the past. If the data that they grab happens to 
coincide with a temporary event in OSM their users will be very confused.


There comes a point, of course, when a "temporary " thing is worth 
mapping.  I've mapped https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/601820045 as 
closed because it's been that way for a couple of years and (despite the 
council signage) is pretty unlikely to be sorted out in the next few weeks.


At what stage something changes from a "one-off temporary" thing to 
something definitely worth mapping is a question worth discussing, though.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Nov 2020, at 14:15, Phake Nick  wrote:
> 
> I don't thibk it is appropriate to add one-off temporary facilities into OSM.


everything is temporary, e.g. buildings, trees, even mountains, although the 
latter on a geological time scale. Not to speak of businesses. Things come an 
go, the question is where you draw the line. IMHO if something is not 
exceptionally important (read: to many people), a few weeks or months seem a 
reasonable period (read: you suppose that they last at least this long, 
naturally nobody can foresee the future). Frederik mentioned in a local forum 
that the DWG sees 6 months as a reasonable timespan for borders in areas with 
ongoing conflicts. 
IMHO, COVID19 related features are falling into the exceptional clause and 
could be mapped even if you expected them to last only 3 weeks (which is not 
the case in many areas).

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 at 13:15, Phake Nick  wrote:

> I don't thibk it is appropriate to add one-off temporary facilities into
> OSM.
>

How temporary is temporary?  All of man's works eventually crumble and
decay.  No man-made feature is permanent.  On a long enough timescale,
no geological feature is permanent either.

We shouldn't map a one-off.  But such facilities are likely to operate for
months,
if not years.  Testing and vaccination facilities are generally not located
in
places like hospitals and doctors to minimize infection.  Often open-air
for the same reason, which means they are going to be building=roof
or building=marquee.  Most won't be constructed to last decades but
will be there for many months.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Phake Nick]

I don't thibk it is appropriate to add one-off temporary facilities into
OSM.

在 2020年11月25日週三 01:30，Tom Pfeifer  寫道：

> Following the discussion on how to tag COVID-19 vaccination centres
> previously on this list,
> I have created a proposal for the vaccination key:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/vaccination
>
> tom
>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: vaccination / COVID-19 vaccination centres

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Nov 2020, at 18:30, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:
> 
> Following the discussion on how to tag COVID-19 vaccination centres 
> previously on this list,
> I have created a proposal for the vaccination key:
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/vaccination


the proposal aims at unifying the tagging for a covid-specific property, but 
which are the suggested main tags? Apart from hospitals, clinics and doctors, 
do we need a specific tag for temporary testing facilities?

Cheers Martin 
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