Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-14 Thread M∡rtin Koppenhoefer
2010/8/10 Jaak Laineste jaak.laine...@gmail.com: I like this test because it will make things easy. No fuzzy shades of grey like some Richard is suggesting. Can you give an example of a thing that is done by a human being and that is not art by this definition?  Humans create many non-art

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-11 Thread Jaak Laineste
2010/8/10 Anthony o...@inbox.org: On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Jaak Laineste jaak.laine...@gmail.com wrote: I like this test because it will make things easy. No fuzzy shades of grey like some Richard is suggesting. Can you give an example of a thing that is done by a human being and

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-11 Thread Robert Kaiser
Anthony schrieb: On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Robert Kaiserka...@kairo.at wrote: As Matt noted, there's a growing legal opinion that our current data is in fact in the PD, as the CC-BY-SA can't be legally applied to it. Is that the state you want to have in the future? Better than it

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Aun Johnsen
Ok, the chilean and the brazilian imports differ in the base license, giving the brazilian imports a head start ahead of chilean in the race for the new license. AFAICT all the brazilian imports are PD, and conditions have been very simple, as giving a way of pointing to sorce data (i.e. source=

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Richard Fairhurst
Anthony wrote: What about a tracing of a photograph of a flower? [...] What about a tracing of a photograph of a lake, as viewed from an aircraft? Bauman v Fussell may be relevant here. cheers Richard -- View this message in context:

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Richard Fairhurst
80n wrote: Why don't you try this. Import some Ordnance Survey Street View data into OSM, then render it as a Produced Work with the ODbL required attribution I've written fairly extensively on this in talk-gb, but to reiterate a posting from May: To comply with ODbL for data obtained

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Richard Fairhurst
80n wrote: This is quite a good place to start: http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Copyright_protection_of_databases It's good to see licence sceptics starting to look at the case law too. There are of course a million things you could say about rights pertaining to factual compilations in the US.

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Jaak Laineste
2010/8/10 Anthony o...@inbox.org: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 6:48 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Ed Avis
Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes: Any license that tries to use this patchy copyright protection of data is bound to be unfair at the very least, and more likely a pain the behind of anybody who wants to use it. The legality of OSM use cases would depend on whether you execute a

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Anthony
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 7:16 AM, Jaak Laineste jaak.laine...@gmail.com wrote: Map is a hand-written 2D picture of the world. It is definitely more a kind of art than a digital photo in flickr, there is more subjectivity and intelligence etc needed to make it. How can photos be copyrighted?

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Jaak Laineste
2010/8/10 Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com: Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes: Any license that tries to use this patchy copyright protection of data is bound to be unfair at the very least, and more likely a pain the behind of anybody who wants to use it. The legality of OSM use cases would

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Ian Dees
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 6:54 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 7:16 AM, Jaak Laineste jaak.laine...@gmail.com wrote: Map is a hand-written 2D picture of the world. It is definitely more a kind of art than a digital photo in flickr, there is more subjectivity and

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Jukka Rahkonen
Jaak Laineste jaak.laineste at gmail.com writes: I don't really see how someone can even have the idea (or argument) that map is just a database of facts. I'd suggest a simple technical test for is X an art or fact. 1. ask two persons to create the X. 2. store it to a digital file, and

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread John Smith
On 10 August 2010 22:09, Jaak Laineste jaak.laine...@gmail.com wrote: I'd like this approach too: each country should be able to decide license terms. Communities are different, population/contributor densities are very different, laws are different. Would it be really practical, and how it

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Anthony
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 8:09 AM, Jaak Laineste jaak.laine...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/8/10 Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com: Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes: Any license that tries to use this patchy copyright protection of data is bound to be unfair at the very least, and more likely a pain

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Richard Fairhurst
Jukka Rahkonen wrote: I like this test because it will make things easy. No fuzzy shades of grey like some Richard is suggesting. I'm not suggesting, I'm reporting. You might like things to be easy but that isn't the way the law works... or we wouldn't have been having this discussion for the

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Jukka Rahkonen
Richard Fairhurst richard at systemed.net writes: Jukka Rahkonen wrote: I like this test because it will make things easy. No fuzzy shades of grey like some Richard is suggesting. I'm not suggesting, I'm reporting. You might like things to be easy but that isn't the way the law works...

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Anthony
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 4:36 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Anthony wrote: What about a tracing of a photograph of a flower? [...] What about a tracing of a photograph of a lake, as viewed from an aircraft? Bauman v Fussell may be relevant here. Not particularly. The

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Jaak Laineste
I like this test because it will make things easy. No fuzzy shades of grey like some Richard is suggesting. Can you give an example of a thing that is done by a human being and that is not art by this definition? Humans create many non-art things. For example databases it human-created

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Jaak Laineste
The question I'm asking (which you chopped out of the quote) is whether or not the tracing is copyrightable. Automatic tracing is not copyrightable by the tracer, according to the test. What was copyrightable is the aerial image, and automatic tracing is just a way of making a specific copy of

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Anthony
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Jaak Laineste jaak.laine...@gmail.com wrote: I like this test because it will make things easy. No fuzzy shades of grey like some Richard is suggesting. Can you give an example of a thing that is done by a human being and that is not art by this definition?

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Robert Kaiser
Anthony schrieb: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 6:48 PM, Matt Amoszerebub...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Anthonyo...@inbox.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Matt Amoszerebub...@gmail.com wrote: the ODbL is the only example i know of. That's certainly a reason to be

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-10 Thread Anthony
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Robert Kaiser ka...@kairo.at wrote: As Matt noted, there's a growing legal opinion that our current data is in fact in the PD, as the CC-BY-SA can't be legally applied to it. Is that the state you want to have in the future? Better than it being under ODbL.

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Aun Johnsen
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 12:58 AM, Erik Johansson e...@kth.se wrote: 2010/8/8 Dirk-Lüder Kreie osm-l...@deelkar.net: Am 08.08.2010 16:59, schrieb John Smith: On 9 August 2010 00:58, Erik Johansson e...@kth.se wrote: Australia 2 people per km^2 Sweden 21 people per km^2 Canada is ~3

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Dirk-Lüder Kreie
Am 08.08.2010 23:10, schrieb Liz: On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Cartinus wrote: It doesn't take as many manhours to map a desert as it takes to map downtown Melbourne. Cartinus Please don't come up with this sort of nonsense Well, a Desert usually has much less features than urban terrain, so I don't

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Dave F.
On 08/08/2010 22:10, Liz wrote: On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Cartinus wrote: It doesn't take as many manhours to map a desert as it takes to map downtown Melbourne. Cartinus Please don't come up with this sort of nonsense Ha, ha, ha. You do say the funniest things sometimes, Liz. But only

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread John Smith
On 9 August 2010 23:40, Julio Costa Zambelli julio.co...@openstreetmap.cl wrote: The government imports (some highways, schools, hospitals, boundaries, etc.) are an essential part of what we are doing here, and at least for us, the license change represents no problem. What about the new

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread john whelan
But strangely enough it is a lot more complicated to map remote areas such a desert than to map a city. Logistics for a start, I can catch a bus and map my city locally for an hour or two, the city bus just doesn't run to remote areas and there are a lot of remote areas in Canada. I have written

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Julio Costa Zambelli
John, That may be a problem, but my impression is that the point four solves it. Cheers On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 9:56 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 9 August 2010 23:40, Julio Costa Zambelli julio.co...@openstreetmap.cl wrote: The government imports (some highways, schools,

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread 80n
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Julio Costa Zambelli julio.co...@openstreetmap.cl wrote: Aun, +1 from Chile. The government imports (some highways, schools, hospitals, boundaries, etc.) are an essential part of what we are doing here, and at least for us, the license change represents no

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Robert Kaiser
John Smith schrieb: The problem here isn't imports, if anything the few imports we have had helped make the map less blank where fewer people map, which isn't the same thing as fewer people living. We have a number of reports here that people took a look, saw that there's nothing interesting

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Julio Costa Zambelli
George, If The contributor terms contain clauses that permit OSMF to do whatever they like with the content including change the license off course any non PD import will not be compatible at all. We will have to ask the agencies to agree with the Contributor Terms but if we are changing to a PD

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread John Smith
On 10 August 2010 04:10, Julio Costa Zambelli julio.co...@openstreetmap.cl wrote: If this is voted as a package I will obviously have to vote against the change (I do not want to see 7/8 of the Chilean highways disappearing from the map in one day, not to say many POIs that we were about to

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Matt Amos
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Julio Costa Zambelli julio.co...@openstreetmap.cl wrote: We will have to ask the agencies to agree with the Contributor Terms but if we are changing to a PD license disguised as BY-SA (via the CT) they probably will not cooperate. OSMF is not moving to a PD

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Frederik Ramm
John, John Smith wrote: And this is why Frederik wants to get rid of data imports, because it reduces the chances of getting a PD dataset by stealth or feature creep Maybe if you'd scale back your demagogy a bit. The subject you chose for this thread is offensive enough. Nothing here

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread John Smith
On 10 August 2010 05:46, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Maybe if you'd scale back your demagogy a bit. The subject you chose for this thread is offensive enough. Sorry if the truth hurts, but some of us are offended by the notion that something we find useful can be so easily and

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread john whelan
I honestly think the way forward is to continue as we are currently and set up a separate project which is pure PD. Extract anything that can be extracted from the current map, this can be done by selecting data which has been contributed by those who are happy with public domain licensing and

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Anthony
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: OSMF is not moving to a PD license disguised as BY-SA Then why don't they ever talk about the fact that the contents are going to be released under DbCL? ___ talk mailing list

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Frederik Ramm
Hi, Anthony wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: OSMF is not moving to a PD license disguised as BY-SA Then why don't they ever talk about the fact that the contents are going to be released under DbCL? Because it is irrelevant given that the

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread John Smith
On 10 August 2010 07:11, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Because it is irrelevant given that the Database as a whole is protected, rather than the individual pieces it contains which, as you correctly state, are largely unprotectable anway? Largely isn't completely, which means you

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Frederik Ramm
Hi, John Smith wrote: Because it is irrelevant given that the Database as a whole is protected, rather than the individual pieces it contains which, as you correctly state, are largely unprotectable anway? Largely isn't completely, which means you are suggesting that if there is any

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread John Smith
On 10 August 2010 07:25, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: they do. and it's in the contributor terms: ODbL 1.0 for the database and DbCL 1.0 for the individual contents of the database. the database is attribution and share-alike. the contents, as facts, hold no copyright - so copyright

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread John Smith
On 10 August 2010 07:30, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I think it has been repeated countless times already, and it is funny to see how both you and Anthony seem to ignore that. We're not ignoring anything, the problem is the content license explicitly removes copyright, which makes

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Julio Costa Zambelli
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: OSMF is not moving to a PD license disguised as BY-SA, OSMF would like to move to ODbL. however, it has to be pointed out that CC BY-SA might be described as a PD license disguised as BY-SA, since many lawyers (including

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Matt Amos
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:30 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 August 2010 07:25, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: they do. and it's in the contributor terms: ODbL 1.0 for the database and DbCL 1.0 for the individual contents of the database. the database is

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Liz
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, Frederik Ramm wrote: John and Liz in Australia say that CC-BY(-SA) works for geodata in Australia, meaning that facts can be copyrighted. Several Australian judges seem to think otherwise but let's assume it were so. Misquote John has pointed out twice that one legal

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Anthony
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Anthony wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: OSMF is not moving to a PD license disguised as BY-SA Then why don't they ever talk about the fact that the contents are going

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Anthony
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 5:43 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:30 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 August 2010 07:25, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: they do. and it's in the contributor terms: ODbL 1.0 for the database and DbCL 1.0

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread John Smith
On 10 August 2010 07:43, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: wouldn't you prefer to protect the *whole* database? That isn't the point, the point was about it *explicitly* removing any claim of copyright, which then makes it incompatible with BY and SA data sources.

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Anthony
On 10 August 2010 07:25, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: they do. and it's in the contributor terms: ODbL 1.0 for the database and DbCL 1.0 for the individual contents of the database. the One other thing. What is meant by the individual contents of the database. Is a changeset an

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Matt Amos
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:41 PM, Julio Costa Zambelli julio.co...@openstreetmap.cl wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: OSMF is not moving to a PD license disguised as BY-SA, OSMF would like to move to ODbL. however, it has to be pointed out that CC BY-SA

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Matt Amos
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:56 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 August 2010 07:43, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: wouldn't you prefer to protect the *whole* database? That isn't the point, the point was about it *explicitly* removing any claim of copyright, which

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread John Smith
On 10 August 2010 08:02, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: that's currently awaiting legal advice. but if you can save us, and the lawyers, the trouble of giving advice, thanks! How many different lawyers have been asked, and do they all share the same opinions that we've been hearing?

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Matt Amos
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 5:43 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:30 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 August 2010 07:25, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: they do. and it's

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Anthony
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: Can we get a collection of quotes from those lawyers that you say think otherwise?  Exact quotes of what they said? unfortunately not. apparently legal advice

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread 80n
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Fortunately most people seem to grasp the concept but I've here made an effort to present it, again, in simple terms to increase the number of those who do. Most people are actually pretty clueless about the details

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread 80n
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:43 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:30 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 August 2010 07:25, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: they do. and it's in the contributor terms: ODbL 1.0 for the database and DbCL

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Ian Dees
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 5:43 PM, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: Most of the cases you are probably familiar with involve simple lists of telephone numbers and subscribers. The moment you add even the slightest originality to a collection of facts then it become eligible for copyright. Can you

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Matt Amos
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: Can we get a collection of quotes from those lawyers that you say think otherwise?  Exact quotes

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Matt Amos
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 11:05 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 August 2010 08:02, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: that's currently awaiting legal advice. but if you can save us, and the lawyers, the trouble of giving advice, thanks! How many different lawyers have

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Matt Amos
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 11:43 PM, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: Matt, you really do need to read up on case law about the minimum threshold for copyrightability. i have. but perhaps you could point out the judgements you're referring to, because i've not seen them. cheers, matt

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread 80n
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: unfortunately, we will lose data this time around - it's unavoidable Data loss can easily be avoided. Just abandon your attempts to change the license. If you want an ODbL licensed project why not just start one?

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread 80n
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 11:59 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 11:43 PM, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: Matt, you really do need to read up on case law about the minimum threshold for copyrightability. i have. but perhaps you could point out the judgements

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Anthony
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 6:48 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: Can we get a collection of

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Anthony
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 6:46 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 5:43 PM, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: Most of the cases you are probably familiar with involve simple lists of telephone numbers and subscribers.  The moment you add even the slightest originality to a

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Liz
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, Ian Dees wrote: Most of the cases you are probably familiar with involve simple lists of telephone numbers and subscribers. The moment you add even the slightest originality to a collection of facts then it become eligible for copyright. Can you give examples of

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-09 Thread Anthony
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 6:46 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: Can you give examples of what you consider originality in the OSM database? Is a painting of a flower copyrightable? What about a tracing of a photograph of a flower? What if you just trace the outline of the flower? Is a

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread john whelan
Probably if you live in an area with a fairly large number of mappers on the ground imports have less impact, reality is trying to map Canada from GPS traces is a bit unrealistic. I tend not to go for walks at minus thirty, or even minus twenty come to that. Cheerio John On 8 August 2010 05:38,

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Peteris Krisjanis
2010/8/8 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2010-August/003908.html Basically those in favour of PD but not directly effected by or benefiting from data imports would like to have them all ripped out and replaced with surveyed data. I

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Richard Fairhurst
Peteris Krisjanis wrote: I respect PD guys, but in overall, I start to grow to openly dislike their attitude. Could you cite who these alleged PD guys are, please? Thanks in advance. I'm getting increasingly exasperated with people projecting this big bogeyman (or strawman. A big man made

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread 80n
On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.netwrote: Peteris Krisjanis wrote: I respect PD guys, but in overall, I start to grow to openly dislike their attitude. Could you cite who these alleged PD guys are, please? Thanks in advance. I'm getting increasingly

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Richard Fairhurst
80n wrote: Isn't it going to present some complicated management problems if the LWG changes the contributor terms at this stage in the process? No, not in this case. The proposal is a subset of the powers currently available to OSMF, not a superset. It is the existing CT _minus_ the option

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Peteris Krisjanis
2010/8/8 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: Peteris Krisjanis wrote: I respect PD guys, but in overall, I start to grow to openly dislike their attitude. Could you cite who these alleged PD guys are, please? Thanks in advance. Sorry, it wasn't meant PD supportive persons in OSM in

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread andrzej zaborowski
On 8 August 2010 13:25, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: Isn't it going to present some complicated management problems if the LWG changes the contributor terms at this stage in the process?  There are already some 30,000 accounts that have signed up to CT 1.0, if the next batch agrees to a

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread 80n
On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 12:41 PM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.netwrote: 80n wrote: Isn't it going to present some complicated management problems if the LWG changes the contributor terms at this stage in the process? No, not in this case. The proposal is a subset of the powers

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread andrzej zaborowski
On 8 August 2010 13:25, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: What mandate does LWG have to change the contributor terms anyway?  Would they need to put it to a vote of OSMF members or would they need to follow the

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Anthony
On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 6:51 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: PD has nothing to do with it. Full stop. What's the difference between PD and DBCL? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Robert Kaiser
John Smith schrieb: For anyone still fence sitting over the new contributor terms and the ODBL this is what you have to look forward to in the near future: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2010-August/003908.html Don't fight his conclusion, but his if in that sentence: |If

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread 80n
On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Robert Kaiser ka...@kairo.at wrote: John Smith schrieb: For anyone still fence sitting over the new contributor terms and the ODBL this is what you have to look forward to in the near future:

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread John Smith
On 8 August 2010 23:23, Robert Kaiser ka...@kairo.at wrote: Let's go what if and weigh the grand outcomes logically, not not fight over some people pointing out some details of some possible outcome. So those people that have been importing cc-by-sa go what if and conclude that most of their

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread John Smith
On 8 August 2010 23:31, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: Who's talking about changing the direction of OSM? There's no consensus for any change of direction that I'm aware of. Arguing that imports should not be allowed because there *might* be change in direction is very presumptuous. He wasn't

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Anthony
On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Robert Kaiser ka...@kairo.at wrote: John Smith schrieb: For anyone still fence sitting over the new contributor terms and the ODBL this is what you have to look forward to in the near future:

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Frederik Ramm
John, On 08/08/2010 11:38 AM, John Smith wrote: Basically those in favour of PD but not directly effected by or benefiting from data imports would like to have them all ripped out and replaced with surveyed data. It's nothing to do with PD. It's that I'm sick and tired of hearing we cannot

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Anthony
On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I don't see any reason for an outcry other than this might make the coastline less precise for a while. Chances are it is going to be fixed very quickly in areas with Yahoo imagery, and might retain some of the typical

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread John Smith
On 9 August 2010 00:07, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: It's nothing to do with PD. It's that I'm sick and tired of hearing we cannot go ahead with ODbL because someone in Australia imported some coastline. And I've tried to explain numerous times that it goes well beyond coastlines,

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread John Smith
On 9 August 2010 00:39, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: If the license change is important, why don't the people who want the license change make their own coastline, on the dev server. This can be done quickly, right? *Then* you can delete the import, and replace it with the one on the dev

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread John Smith
On 9 August 2010 00:59, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 9 August 2010 00:58, Erik Johansson e...@kth.se wrote: Australia 2 people per km^2 Sweden 21 people per km^2 Canada is ~3 people per km^2... Oh and most people in Canada live within 100km of the US border, and in

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Frederik Ramm
Hi, On 08/08/2010 04:39 PM, Anthony wrote: If the license change is important, why don't the people who want the license change make their own coastline, on the dev server. This can be done quickly, right? *Then* you can delete the import, and replace it with the one on the dev server. I

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread John Smith
On 9 August 2010 01:00, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: In fact, this is exactly what I said I would do - not delete the existing coastline, but replace it with a version that has a suitable license. For some reason John Smith does not seem to share our view that this is a reasonable

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Anthony
On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 08/08/2010 04:39 PM, Anthony wrote: If the license change is important, why don't the people who want the license change make their own coastline, on the dev server.  This can be done quickly, right?  *Then*

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread 80n
On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: John, On 08/08/2010 11:38 AM, John Smith wrote: Basically those in favour of PD but not directly effected by or benefiting from data imports would like to have them all ripped out and replaced with surveyed data.

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Frederik Ramm
Hi, On 08/08/2010 05:13 PM, Anthony wrote: No, what I said is that you need to start from a blank map. If you want to create a map which isn't CC-BY-SA, you aren't allowed to use the CC-BY-SA map to do it. Depends on how exactly you use it. If you use the CC-BY-SA map to flag stuff that

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Anthony
On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 11:17 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 08/08/2010 05:13 PM, Anthony wrote: No, what I said is that you need to start from a blank map.  If you want to create a map which isn't CC-BY-SA, you aren't allowed to use the CC-BY-SA map to do it. Depends

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Anthony
On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 11:15 AM, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: There's likely to be 20% data loss based on the feedback I'm getting. I can't imagine it'll be anywhere near that low. What percentage of contributors are even still active? Maybe 20% of active contributors will disagree with the

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Dirk-Lüder Kreie
Am 08.08.2010 16:59, schrieb John Smith: On 9 August 2010 00:58, Erik Johansson e...@kth.se wrote: Australia 2 people per km^2 Sweden 21 people per km^2 Canada is ~3 people per km^2... You seem to forget that the most interesting Data (to most people) is also where the people are. Forests,

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread John Smith
2010/8/9 Dirk-Lüder Kreie osm-l...@deelkar.net: With enough (motivated) people we can take any data loss, and rebuild our database to be better within a short timeframe. It may sound arrogant, but if you look at it rationally, we could even compensate for mappers demotivated by any data loss

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Robert Kaiser
80n schrieb: On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Robert Kaiserka...@kairo.at wrote: And if we want to change the direction os OSM, [...] Who's talking about changing the direction of OSM? Hehe, another case of jumping on the conclusion, rather than the if. ;-) I should probably noted that I

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Robert Kaiser
John Smith schrieb: On 8 August 2010 23:23, Robert Kaiserka...@kairo.at wrote: Offending them doesn't help either. We are still ONE community in ONE He seems to be doing a good job of offending Australians and anyone else that has been involved with either importing or cleaning up imports in

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Cartinus
On Sunday 08 August 2010 17:40:40 John Smith wrote: You've made a couple of big incorrect assumptions, firstly we have a big lack of contributors at present in Australia Which probably has the same cause as the lack of contributors in the Netherlands: Too many imports! -- m.v.g., Cartinus

Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...

2010-08-08 Thread Robert Kaiser
Anthony schrieb: And I'm sure if you do it that way you'll be infringing on the copyright of the CC-BY-SA data. Gah, what are we? I thought we were an OPEN project that likes share-alike licensing, mostly without that the explicit terms of those licenses really matter. Only lawyers can

  1   2   >