ague, that
isn't even the same sport. You give first rate attribution to OSM and
second rate attribution to everything else.
Been there, done that, not a problem:
http://maps.imagico.de/#map=3/82.576/19.421&lang=en&l=topo&r=arctic&ui=0
n several occasions - like
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2018-January/thread.html#8648
My hope is that future new guidelines as well as refinements of existing
ones take such lessons learned into account and put the viability of
what i called "the social contract amon
ally the case and if it was that would be more or
less "suicide out of fear of death". This is what can and should be
debated - not what level of weaseling around the ODbL is still
acceptable.
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Since you mention the EU commission i cannot help pointing out that the
EU commission is also responsible for one of the most ridiculous cases
of inproper attribution i have seen so far:
https://scihub.copernicus.eu/dhus/
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ard attribution and share-alike requirements.
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blem, on
the contrary, they create additional means with extended power for
people to pursue their personal interests and would likely aggrevate
the problem rather than solving it.
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arable to the
one on the wiki that motivated me to start this thread would very
likely never have found approval from the community.
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basing membership in the
aristocratic class on the technical ability to develop and run bots is
quite obviously a bad idea.
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opted out).
* create a bot free fork of the OSM wiki and maintain the original OSM
wiki as a zone where bots are allowed.
* create some other new platform of communication and cooperative
documentation writing as alternative to the wiki where bots are banned.
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her case keep in mind you are the guardians of your local map,
it is both your right and your duty to safeguard the quality and
integrity of the map in your area. The key here is to be friendly but
resolute - making clear that this is not a formality but that they have
to abide by the standards
You could try touching (i.e. creating a new version of) both of the
boundary relations involved - in this case:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/189416
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icular
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Guagua_ESSC-OSMPH_Training_field_survey.jpg
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orking. And the only basis for such
evaluation could be to measure if they are being followed.
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French so far).
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ithout background knowledge about the
wiki you don't have an edit history of the document where you can look
how it changed over time.
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ne.
I have no objections to that but i think you should either indicate that
the page with the guideline should not be edited by anyone except OSMF
board or DWG or mention that this version is being worked on
continuously by the community and the authoritive version is to be
found elsewhere.
-
guidelines and defined the scope to prevent those problems
> without creating loopholes or negative incentives like encouraging
> salami tactics.
We will see - you know i have doubts about this and i am particularly on
the lookout for the first case of "let me through, it's an eme
n with a collective entity behind which
an arbitrary number of people might hide.
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te attribution is such a clear cut case that it could
and should be covered. In particular since the wording of the OdbL is
quite clear in attribution being not a technical formality but a matter
of actual de facto user experience.
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se make sure to clearly condemn second rate attribution like on:
https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2016-07/china-hat-keinen-gebietsanspruch-auf-inseln-im-suedchinesischen-meer
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or confirmation in OSM but
there is no reason to assume there to be any legal issues.
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with additional information that is useful for improving the accuracy
and reliability of mapping.
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is discussion started here. I
included the link to not unecessarily have to repeat myself in the
discussion.
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th".
Independent verifiability, i.e. that you can verify statements through
independent observation without access to the same sources is and has
always been the core of verifiability in OSM.
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lity means *independent* verifiability. If verifying a
statement depends on a singular authority that is not compatible with
the concept of OpenStreetMap's independent, intersubjective
verifiability. Same as restaurant star ratings etc.
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ervations in the real world in favor of
Wikipedia verifiability based on 'reliable sources'.
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ties themselves or physical effects of these activities.
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irony of this is just priceless.
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And there are of course also cases where the overlap represents an
undisputed situation:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3659532
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resent this in OSM if that was
still the situation today. OpenStreetMap is not Wikipedia.
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eliminate
all disputes.
We would also eliminate any meaning of OSM data as a representation of a
verifiably observable geographic reality.
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im something is theirs).
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much
of the administrative boundary data in OSM is imported and never has
actually been verified on the ground is a different matter.
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verifiably observable nature of reality.
If data users need additional data for their purposes they need to
obtain it from other sources.
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We have
only very few automated QA tools that use any kind of outside reference
to gauge accuracy of the data.
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haviour in contrast to engaging in an open argument about the best
approach and trying to convince people this way. You should probably
think carefully if this is what you want to communicate here.
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On Sunday 23 September 2018, Tobias Knerr wrote:
> On 23.09.2018 17:07, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> > If you'd now impose
> > technical constraints preventing mappers from documenting things
> > that do not match a certain ideal of structure would you would
> > effe
ag and key pages.
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e - after Carl Anton Larsen, who is the
source of quite a few featutes in the Antarctic).
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x27;d now impose
technical constraints preventing mappers from documenting things that
do not match a certain ideal of structure would you would effectively
make the wiki unsuitable for its primary application and mappers would
need to set up a new place to documen
area".
There are of course also QA tasks where AI can be more useful for like
the typical needle-in-a-haystack problems.
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ing
presented that makes sense, somethings that helps someone to locate
something does not cut it.
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extending natural=shingle to urban areas artificially
covered with loose stones based on a physical similarity.
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eirder in the future - not so much because of this fashion of encoded
coordinate systems but because of digital technology increasingly
allowing dynamically connecting people with locations (and Amazon will
just send you your order to whereever you are - or where you are likely
to be
unique needs to include the name - kind
of like name_is_a_necessary_part_of_address=yes (not a serious
suggestion in this form but you probably get the idea) as to explicitly
indicate the lack of a house number.
Also i kind of doubt if this form of specifying the lack of a house
number is that
unique. I can confirm from having worked there
> that it has indeed no housenumber.
Yes, that looks like a good example for the first case.
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agging somehow. And
And I don't think the fact that there is no house number needs to be
specifically indicated then.
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d buildings which happen to have the
same address (which clashes with my understanding of the concept of an
address).
Note to document a building/place belongs to a certain street we also
have the concept of the associatedStreet relation.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/
On Wednesday 22 August 2018, Rory McCann wrote:
> > The single most important property of an address is that it is
> > unique
>
> 35% of addresses in Ireland aren't unique.
I strongly suspect we have a different understanding of either 'address'
or 'uniquen
at this street or with this postcode) or if you want to defend
pointless or non-verifiable tagging of addr:street for buildings
without a unique address.
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ll even if you can specify a street, city etc. at/in which
it is located.
Specifying addr:street on a building that does not have an address is
either pointless or non-verifiable.
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/Key:noaddress
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duse=residential mapping in Eastern Africa this is not the
worst data in the database, not by a large margin. I just pointed it
out here as an example because it was a perfect fit for the idea John
brought up.
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like a verifiable mapping of settlements in the
area than what we can see now in the database.
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- the most likely explanation seems to be
that the quality of building detection and especially of building
geometry generation (if that is being done at all) is probably quite
bad and by not using the building data directly you can kind of
disguise such deficits.
--
Chr
es not really help the
original question from John. My answer to that would be: Yes,
automated methods can help to find unmapped settlements in OSM - less
though in actually mapping them.
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are
important but with organized efforts like this i can't help but get the
impression there is a certain amount of malice to sabotage or at least
an excessive amount of carelessness.
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nstreetmap.org/way/614459980
From a purely technical point of view if it wasn't littering OSM this
would just be droll.
Verifiability my ass...
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ach of the big lakes that is a few dozen MB of
download via overpass API and then a few seconds with osmium to
assemble the multipolygon. You can easily set this up to run on a
daily basis to check a few lakes you want to keep an eye on.
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in red (self
interaection) or magenta (ring not closed).
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a
lack of quality control for imports in OSM they are not even remotely
as damaging as would be the deliberate large scale addition of encoded
coordinates as tags to millions of features.
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ht up against these arguments except the
continued expression of the political desire to push this into the OSM
database despite all the arguments against it. Everyone is entitled to
their political views but i don't think the OSM database is a place
where
al result of the transit from expansion (where edits were
predominantly writing new documentation) to maintainance (with
predominantly changes of existing documentation).
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am afraid that even after reading it several times i have no idea what
you want to say with that.
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mming, data processing and
data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
of the whole geodata world.
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Christoph Hormann
eed to follow the guidelines.
Side note: It would be a responsible thing to include a reminder like
what i wrote above with a message like the one i reply to here or in
the welcome messages/FAQs etc. of dedicated communication channels.
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ing about
this maybe talk to the Russians...
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nce it is clear
that this will not necessarily be the case in all eternity and the idea
is floated to maybe even render more than one style this becomes a
relevant question.
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d have for that behaviour is particularly flattering
is an understatement.
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to implement something like that in an actual renderer is of course
not a trivial task.
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ion on what is the right development
model for an open map design project. This is about the almost
complete lack of competitive pressure to make sure whatever development
model is used it is challenged to deliver the best results (or be
abandoned because it is unable to d
leisure, water/waterway etc.
are things that could be hinted cautiously to the user to be possible
errors. From JOSM i only know the message that a value is not in
presets - which would catch these errors as well but which is not that
meaningful.
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n the legal issues.
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ames.
Otherwise people will inevitably add tons of non-verifiable
transliterated names in a misguided attempt improve the map.
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elaborated on in the OSM wiki.
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; The default name to use is the name:en name.
I think that someone was me. :-)
Details on:
http://blog.imagico.de/you-name-it-on-representing-geographic-diversity-in-names/
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cases where mappers do not react to attempts at communication at
all this is a general problem not specific to organized/directed
editing activities.
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German forum on
that - after all we do not even have a German language channel with
global scope which might have been a better place for that.
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munity
does not want this to continue in their domain and how to best
accompish that would be a good subject of discussion.
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side the EU can still publish their regional
> extracts with metadata publicly.
Well - that is obviously a question you need to get qualified local
legal advise on. Same as if you can publicly distribute a copy of
.
--
Christoph Hormann
htt
of the legal obligations that seems something that can be
reasonably dealt with.
The terminology used in the position paper however seems to point into a
somewhat different direction (i.e. that providing bulk metadata would
be subject to a specific contractual agreement).
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Christoph Hormann
htt
require a special agreement. In addition it might
be a good idea (i think i suggested this already in the past) to
provide an anonymous OAuth service - where the application using it
gets confirmation that the user is logged in as an registered OSM user
but which does not provide any informati
sity in tools and development goals) is generally
superior for innovation and progress in general compared to trying to
be universally inclusive w.r.t. feature and design ideas or
communication and cooperation styles within projects.
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_
terways as those within a non-river
water area. This is hampered by the problem that we mostly have no
consistent distinction between river and lake areas in OSM (i.e.
standing and flowing water areas).
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obably is if this is something editors should provide support to
produce automatically or if it is something that data users should
generate automatically as needed.
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years ago:
>
> http://osmz.ru/osm2008.html
Have you tried running OSMCoastline on that planet? Might be tricky but
would significantly improve the realism of the historic image.
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arto/issues/2270
While i agree with you that from my perspective a style direction or
design paradigm is needed for successful development i try to be open
to the possibility that it is not. How to attract contributors in such
a framework is not something i can provide a c
Thanks for the links.
I stand by my critique of how the OSM community is engrossed in how this
is presented by HOT and also by my assessment of the decision making
processes being intransparent (the validity of which has no bearing on
the main point of critique though).
--
Christoph Hormann
are unclear and subjective but you should not
present this as if this financing is somehow integrated into and
supervised by the OSM community.
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.
As said before: *do not mix rendering and tagging discussions*.
[1]https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/CARTOGRAPHY.md
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es and you want to
discuss those that is fine but then drop arguing for certain tagging
ideas based on your perceived needs for rendering. Tagging decisions
should be based on how mappers can best document their knowledge about
the geography. Not on what some developers find convenient for
rendering
chool
grounds.
* the school consists of a number of rooms in a building but not the
whole building.
* there are multiple schools using the same infrastructure together.
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; - which might also be translated
as unregenerate.
My attempt at a translation of the German text would be:
"Yuri is perceived by many in this discussion, in a similar way as in
previous discussions, as unreasonable/unregenerate and questions the
relevancy of the unwritten rules of OSM.&qu
This is just my personal interpretation of the policy of course - others
might see this differently.
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urse the turnover in people is much faster in OSM than in science
(see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Active_contributors_year.png).
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mples where a failed attempt at something created the
impulse for a better and successful solution.
(Changed the subject because this of course does not have much to do
with the original subject of this thread - still i think this is an
important topic to discuss)
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http:
e way they perceive it, including the intensity and extent of
the displeasure felt by those in the discussion, you are going to do
more damage to the OSM community than either Yuri or anyone maybe going
on occasion a bit overboard with their choice of words in the
discussion.
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message...
I sincerely hope the weeklyOSM team ignores such advise. No one really
wants a shallow, politically whitewashed verbal ornamentation of the
links carefully vetted not to hurt anyone that could be generated by a
bot (yes, there is some irony in that).
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#x27;s idea does not work with any of these other,
more fitting terms - sorry. ;-)
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