On 27/07/2011 23:45, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Signs are indices, but they contain errors and bugs like everything else.
and abbreviations, especially in the US.
--
Steve
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On 27 July 2011 23:10, Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Kay Drangmeister k...@drangmeister.net
wrote:
That, to me, is a convincing argument to tag the unabbreviated form
and let software (easily) do the abbreviation, instead of tagging
Brian wrote:
Speaking as someone who has to use this data can I make a plea for
unabbreviated names to always be used.
This should currently be the case, as is documented on the Key:name
wiki page.
I think the main issue now is whether St at the beginning of English
place names is an
I think the main issue now is whether St at the beginning of English
place names is an abbreviation for Saint, or actually part of the
place name as St, and whether the same rule applies to street
names. And not just at the beginning, thinking about it. I don't
think I'd ever write Bury Saint
On 28/07/2011 13:53, Brian Quinion wrote:
Ask any English speaker in the UK what the 'st' in Bury St Edmunds
means and they will tell you it is an abbreviation for Saint.
I once heard of a radio presenter who read out a request from someone
living in 'Bewry Street Edmunds'!
--
Steve
Steve Doerr wrote:
I once heard of a radio presenter who read out a request from
someone living in 'Bewry Street Edmunds'!
Eeeek.
/me goes off to add not_name=Loogabarooga
cheers
Richard
--
View this message in context:
On 28 July 2011 21:52, Brian Quinion openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk wrote:
Now that said I don't really care which tag is used for the 'full'
name. I'd personally prefer the name tag was used for this because it
has always been the policy of OSM that the name tag includes the full
On 29 July 2011 14:22, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 28 July 2011 21:52, Brian Quinion openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk
wrote:
Now that said I don't really care which tag is used for the 'full'
name. I'd personally prefer the name tag was used for this because it
has always been
If we are using pronunciations as a guide shall I go and rename Southwell
as Suval and Leicester as Lesta?
On Wednesday, 27 July 2011, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote:
On 27 July 2011 04:04, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 27 July 2011 10:40, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote:
On 27/07/2011 03:04, Stephen Hope wrote:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes
Um - no. If a place wants to be written St Albans, then that's the
name. Just because you pronounce it Saint Albans makes no
difference.
If they'd just shortened it for some signs to save space (like
On 27 Jul 2011, at 10:15, Steve Doerr wrote:
On 27/07/2011 03:04, Stephen Hope wrote:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes
Um - no. If a place wants to be written St Albans, then that's the
name. Just because you pronounce it Saint Albans makes no
difference.
If they'd
On 27 July 2011 12:40, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote:
like S St N on Google where they've abbreviated South Street North,
for example, which just looks silly). This seems to agree with
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes
ha, there's a road near me labelled on sign posts as:
Grt
andrzej zaborowski wrote:
I'd say the opposite is true. If it's pronounced Saint Albans
then that is the name.
Pronunciation in English only ever serves to mislead. :)
Increasingly you can treat St as a valid spelling of the word saint,
rather than merely an abbreviation. No (educated)
On 27 July 2011 20:01, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
(I'm only talking about the UK, of course, and in fact this discussion would
be better on talk-gb.)
The person that started this thread is in New Zealand...
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On 27/07/2011 10:23, Thomas Davie wrote:
I don't think how they're sorted has anything to do with it, if every
time the place name is written, it's written St Albans, even in
official documentation of what the town is called, it's name is St
Albans, simple as that.
+1.
And the same applies to
John Smith wrote:
The person that started this thread is in New Zealand...
...and started it with the comment does anyone here know what st albans
in uk is actually called then?. Robin has also mapped parts of Britain -
such as Repton, not far from where I'm sitting now.
Richard
In just doing some web searching, I came across this UK Government
document...
http://www.pcgn.org.uk/UK%20Toponymic%20Guidelines.pdf
which has lots of references to OS lists of standards and conventions.
While St Albans isn't big enough to feature in the list in this
document, it does have
On 27 July 2011 20:50, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote:
While St Albans isn't big enough to feature in the list in this document, it
does have St. Helens (sic). Why the period? The district council's website
The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate
Saint,
On 27/07/2011 11:58, John Smith wrote:
On 27 July 2011 20:50, David Earlda...@frankieandshadow.com wrote:
While St Albans isn't big enough to feature in the list in this document, it
does have St. Helens (sic). Why the period? The district council's website
The period after St. is the
From: John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com
The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate
Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period.
Exactly the opposite according to my (Collins) dictionary:
st abbrev. for short ton.
St abbrev. for Saint.
st. abbrev.
Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote:
ha, there's a road near me labelled on sign posts as:
Grt Sth Rd
which must be so easy to interpret for all the none-native english speakers
Would Grout Something Rapid count as an educated guess?
Let's face it: its the authorities' idea of
On 27/07/2011 12:21, Paul Jaggard wrote:
From: John Smithdeltafoxtrot...@gmail.com
The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate
Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period.
Exactly the opposite according to my (Collins) dictionary:
st abbrev. for short
On 27 July 2011 21:21, Paul Jaggard p...@jaggard.net wrote:
From: John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com
The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate
Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period.
Exactly the opposite according to my (Collins) dictionary:
On 27 July 2011 21:48, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote:
Commonly abbreviated S. or St. ... Abbreviations: S. and St., pl. SS. and
Sts. Since the 18th c. ‘St.’ is the form usually employed; but since about
1830 ‘S.’ has been favoured by ecclesiologists. In place-names, and in
family
John Smith wrote:
The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate
Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period.
Not in British English, it isn't.
_Saint._ St or S. is better than St. for the abbreviation (see PERIOD IN
ABBR.); Pl. Sts or SS.
That's from
On 27 July 2011 22:00, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
John Smith wrote:
The period after St. is the correct way in English to abbreviate
Saint, where as the abbreviation of street doesn't have a period.
Not in British English, it isn't.
_Saint._ St or S. is better than St.
On 27 July 2011 12:01, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
Increasingly you can treat St as a valid spelling of the word saint,
rather than merely an abbreviation. No (educated) native English speaker
would write a placename with 'Saint', and every native English speaker would
It probably doesn't affect the argument, but 'The Place-names of
Hertfordshire' (English Place-name Society, 1938) records the following
historical forms:
(aet) Sancte Albane (957)
Sancte Albanes stow (1007)
la ville de Seint Alban (Norman-French)
villa Sancti Albani (Domesday Book - in Latin)
On 27/07/2011 11:01, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
Pronunciation in English only ever serves to mislead.
[...]
every native English speaker would pronunce St in that context as 'saint'.
Actually, /St/ and /saint/ are pronounced rather differently (*sn?t* and
*se?nt*, respectively).
--
Steve
On Wed, 2011-07-27 at 13:51 +0100, Steve Doerr wrote:
On 27/07/2011 11:01, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
Pronunciation in English only ever serves to mislead.
[...]
every native English speaker would pronunce St in that context as
'saint'.
Actually, St and saint are pronounced rather
andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote:
On 27 July 2011 12:01, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
Increasingly you can treat St as a valid spelling of the word
saint,
rather than merely an abbreviation. No (educated) native English
speaker
would write a placename with
On 27/07/2011 14:38, John F. Eldredge wrote:
That is the reason I feel that it would be best to store the
fully-spelled-out name, and then apply localized rules to look up any
abbreviations needed at rendering time. Using the full form to
determine the abbreviation is much less ambiguous than
2011/7/27 Kay Drangmeister k...@drangmeister.net:
Am 27.07.2011, 12:01 Uhr, schrieb Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net:
every native English speaker would
pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. That, to me, is a pretty
conclusive
argument that we should tag St.
Alas, and in German St
...but the point is that here the name seems to be St Albans so why
should we be the only ones to expand it?
cheers,
Martin
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On 27/07/2011 18:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
...but the point is that here the name seems to be St Albans so why
should we be the only ones to expand it?
So that satnavs can more easily work out how to pronounce it?
--
Steve
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But that's just tagging for the renderer (or reader). If my sat nav can't
pronounce st as saint I'd blame the software, not the data.
On 27 Jul 2011 20:38, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote:
On 27/07/2011 18:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
...but the point is that here the name seems to
Hi,
Joseph Reeves wrote:
But that's just tagging for the renderer (or reader). If my sat nav
can't pronounce st as saint I'd blame the software, not the data.
Yup... nothing against a special tag for a pronounciation hint though.
Phonetic alphabet, anyone?
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm
Am 27.07.2011 19:22, schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer:
Am 27.07.2011, 12:01 Uhr, schrieb Richard Fairhurstrich...@systemed.net:
every native English speaker would
pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. That, to me, is a pretty
conclusive
argument that we should tag St.
In Italian S. can mean
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:44 PM, Kay Drangmeister k...@drangmeister.net
wrote:
Am 27.07.2011 19:22, schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer:
Am 27.07.2011, 12:01 Uhr, schrieb Richard
Fairhurstrich...@systemed.net:
every native English speaker would
pronunce St in that context as 'saint'. That, to me,
2011/7/28 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@gmail.com:
name is what is on (the majority of) the signs
name is the name. Or what would be the name if the sign-majority was
defined and there were 2 differing signs? nil? Or if there was 1 sign
and that was spellt wrong? Signs are indices, but
On Wednesday, July 27, 2011 3:04:13 PM UTC-5, Joseph Reeves wrote:
But that's just tagging for the renderer (or reader). If my sat nav can't
pronounce st as saint I'd blame the software, not the data.
Should the satnav pronounce st. as saint or street?
On 28 July 2011 10:45, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
2011/7/28 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@gmail.com:
name is what is on (the majority of) the signs
name is the name. Or what would be the name if the sign-majority was
defined and there were 2 differing signs?
It's all about the placement:
St Albans pronounced Saint Albans
Albans St pronounced Albans Street
Look at this road: http://osm.org/go/eutDvk@QV-
Should we tag it:
name: Magdalen Road
pronounced: More-da-lin Road
?
That's ridiculous if you ask me. If you're making sat nav software for a
On 28 July 2011 12:06, Joseph Reeves iknowjos...@gmail.com wrote:
name: Magdalen Road
pronounced: More-da-lin Road
?
That's ridiculous if you ask me. If you're making sat nav software for a
market (the UK, France, America, etc.) you should be able to work out these
things yourself.
why?
2011/7/26 Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com:
does anyone here know what st albans in uk is actually called then?
i've been told it's st albans, not saint albans as i 'corrected' it to
I think it is actually written St Albans as stated above.
cheers,
Martin
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
I think it is actually written St Albans as stated above.
Indeed. In British English orthography, Saint in place and streetnames is
always written as St. (It's not such an anomaly: Mrs as an honorific is
never expanded, either.)
Mind you, British English orthography
2011/7/26 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net:
Mind you, British English orthography is also that Martin has an a in it,
not a ∡. ;)
Hello Rich∡rd,
orthography doesn't apply to names, but Martin as my name is, has
indeed no ∡ in it. I just put it there on a whim. Interestingly humans
don't
Richard,
Mind you, British English orthography is also that Martin has an a in it,
not a ∡. ;)
Oh, that's relatively benign. There are people with that name who would
try to grab attention with ℳ∡ℝℸⅈℿ or something.
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ##
So it's an a is it - google mail on Android shows a square!
On 26 Jul 2011 15:54, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
I think it is actually written St Albans as stated above.
Indeed. In British English orthography, Saint in place and streetnames is
always
Frederik Ramm wrote:
Oh, that's relatively benign. There are people with that name who
would try to grab attention with ℳ∡ℝℸⅈℿ or something.
Oh, we really should produce a map which renders the name High Street as
H16H 5tr33t, etc.
It could be called Open1337Map.
cheers
Richard
--
View
Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
Frederik Ramm wrote:
Oh, that's relatively benign. There are people with that name who
would try to grab attention with ℳ∡ℝℸⅈℿ or something.
Oh, we really should produce a map which renders the name High Street
as
H16H 5tr33t, etc.
It
On Fri, Jul 08, 2011 at 08:05:47PM +0200, colliar wrote:
Am 08.07.2011 05:49, schrieb John Harvey:
I find there are a lot more abbreviations if you look at addr:street=
rather than the name= . I suspect that with mobile entry of POI's we
are going to see more and more abbreviations being
i've been told it's st albans, not saint albans as i 'corrected'
it to
I think it is actually written St Albans as stated above.
Yes, it is called Saint Albans, written St Albans, except where some
websites seem to have expanded it.
e.g.
http://www.meteoprog.co.uk/en/weather/SaintAlbans/
Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote:
i've been told it's st albans, not saint albans as i 'corrected'
it to
I think it is actually written St Albans as stated above.
Yes, it is called Saint Albans, written St Albans, except where some
websites seem to have expanded it.
e.g.
On 27 July 2011 10:40, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote:
Yes, it is called Saint Albans, written St Albans, except where some
websites seem to have expanded it.
e.g.
http://www.meteoprog.co.uk/en/weather/SaintAlbans/
http://www.gomapper.com/travel/map-of/saint-albans.html
etc...
On 27 July 2011 04:04, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 27 July 2011 10:40, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote:
Yes, it is called Saint Albans, written St Albans, except where some
websites seem to have expanded it.
e.g.
http://www.meteoprog.co.uk/en/weather/SaintAlbans/
On 11 July 2011 13:32, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
2011/7/7 Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org:
On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 03:35:07PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote:
is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names?...
i was under the impression consensus was to type the full
2011/7/7 Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org:
On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 03:35:07PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote:
is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names?...
i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then
renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently some
I tend to abbreviate Saint (to St), because the full version is almost
never used, and certainly never spoken by anybody locally (they say
something closer to Sunt, which they wouldn't say if confronted with
the unabbreviated version).
Whereas Road / Avenue / Street get written out in full,
On 08/07/2011 09:28, Richard Mann wrote:
I tend to abbreviate Saint (to St), because the full version is almost
never used, and certainly never spoken by anybody locally (they say
something closer to Sunt, which they wouldn't say if confronted with
the unabbreviated version).
Whereas Road /
Am 08.07.2011 05:49, schrieb John Harvey:
I find there are a lot more abbreviations if you look at addr:street=
rather than the name= . I suspect that with mobile entry of POI's we
are going to see more and more abbreviations being entered, just because
mobile keyboards are slow. I would
I made this same remark and somebody changed the wiki:
street one or more The associated street (more than one way possible if they
are the same street, just have been split for mapping reasons)
Now all that is needed is that JOSM's validation rules stop complaing about
more than one street role
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org wrote:
Yes, thats the consensus and has been for a long time. Some mappers always
disagree, just ignore them. :-)
+1
And in software, it is always easier to shorten a word than expanding an
abbreviation. 'st' is for 'Saint' or for
On 7 July 2011 19:23, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org wrote:
Yes, thats the consensus and has been for a long time. Some mappers always
disagree, just ignore them. :-)
+1
And in software, it is always easier to shorten a word
Occasionally some one may wish to add a translation or find the street
programmatically. For example using Maperitive and a local copy to search
for the street. Having the full name helps enormously. End users don't
like having to try high street, high St. etc until they find the right
On 7 July 2011 11:29, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:
On 7 July 2011 19:23, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org wrote:
Yes, thats the consensus and has been for a long time. Some mappers always
disagree, just ignore them.
On 07/07/11 10:29, John Smith wrote:
In some cases, the official name is with the abbreviation, eg St.
George Bank in Australia and there is a town named St. George.
Yes. I found one just today actually. Ordnance Survey (national
mapping agency) record the name as Upper St Giles Street. The
On 7 July 2011 23:33, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote:
In some cases, the official name is with the abbreviation, eg St.
George Bank in Australia and there is a town named St. George.
Still you say Saint George, not S.T. George.
Well you can ring up the bank/local government and
I find there are a lot more abbreviations if you look at addr:street=
rather than the name= . I suspect that with mobile entry of POI's we
are going to see more and more abbreviations being entered, just because
mobile keyboards are slow. I would applaud a bot that asked me if I
meant the
On 7 July 2011 19:50, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:
On 7 July 2011 23:33, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote:
In some cases, the official name is with the abbreviation, eg St.
George Bank in Australia and there is a town named St. George.
Still you say Saint George, not
On 8 July 2011 13:59, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote:
On 7 July 2011 19:50, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:
On 7 July 2011 23:33, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote:
In some cases, the official name is with the abbreviation, eg St.
George Bank in Australia and
On 07/06/2011 11:35 PM, Robin Paulson wrote:
is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names?
e.g.:
street/st
saint/st
avenue/ave
point/pt
mount/mt
i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then
renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently some
On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 03:35:07PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote:
is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names?
e.g.:
street/st
saint/st
avenue/ave
point/pt
mount/mt
i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then
renderers would shorten where necessary?
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