Re: [tw] Re: A thought about licensing and money

[RichardWilliamSmith]

Hi Jeremy,

How exciting. I hope you make a success of it, as I really feel you deserve 
to. If there's any way we can help, I hope you'll let us know.

Vannevar Bush's essay was an interesting read and good food for thought. 
It's online here if anyone else is interested 
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/.

My favourite line was this one:

"The world has arrived at an age of cheap complex devices of great 
reliability; and something is bound to come of it."

I think he was right!

Regards,
Richard

On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 7:13:33 PM UTC+10, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Back in 2005/6, tiddlywiki.com had quite a prominent PayPal donation 
> button. Over the course of a year it accrued enough money for me to buy a 
> decent camera, which was quite a thrill at the time. Then, in 2007, I sold 
> my company Osmosoft to BT and I felt that having just profited from 
> TiddlyWiki it wasn’t appropriate for me to be asking for money.
>
> Over the following years, my views changed even more. The fundamental 
> thing I realised was that it was wrong to see the TiddlyWiki community as a 
> group from whom I can extract money. It was better for me to view the 
> community as my partners in making TiddlyWiki better. Without the 
> enthusiasm of the community no doubt I personally would have lost impetus a 
> long time ago. More than that, it’s the contributions made by others that 
> makes TiddlyWiki so interesting and useful. Whether those contributions 
> take the form of code, documentation, or just chewing the fat with others 
> in the community, it’s the community that breathes life into the project.
>
> So, now, building on that idea, rather than seeking to make money *from* 
> the community, I’m much more interested in making money *with* the 
> community.
>
> One simple scenario in which that might happen can be illustrated with one 
> of my favourite examples of a TW5 edition. It’s tool to help teach 
> volleyball students to high school students:
>
>
> http://pespot.tiddlyspot.com/#Task%201:%5B%5BTask%201%5D%5D%20%5B%5BTask%205%5D%5D%20%5B%5BContent%205%5D%5D%209
>  
> 
>
> There’s a few things I think worthy of note:
>
> * As far as I know, the creator of PESpot is not a software developer. 
> Nonetheless, they’ve been able to build the system themselves (perhaps with 
> the help of the community), rather than having to engage a software 
> developer and then explain to them what they want. The difference is 
> profound. When you engage an outsider to build your system you’ve 
> introduced a communication gap into the system: experience shows that it is 
> very hard to describe the requirements of a system that doesn’t exist yet. 
> In contrast, with TiddlyWiki, the author was able to combine their own 
> expertise in the domain with the ability to build the system by incremental 
> trial and error. The incremental approach allows the author to learn by 
> doing, and removes the need for them to be able to state the full 
> requirements up front. For me, that is the enduring magic of TiddlyWiki: to 
> empower people to build their own digital tools without being a 
> conventional software developer
>
> * There’s really no business model for building tools that are so specific 
> to a particular niche. It’s hard to imagine raising VC funding for a 
> software company specialising in high school volleyball
>
> * Although the author was able to successfully build this tool in 
> TiddlyWiki, it’s nature as a single file edition puts a limit on its ease 
> of use. But imagine taking this same wiki and putting in on a server with 
> user accounts and billing. Then the author could sell it as a service that 
> individual high school volleyball coaches could sign up for
>
> So, I think that what is needed here is a sort of wholesale version of 
> TiddlySpace that enables anyone to drop a working single file TiddlyWiki 
> into the system and spin up a full multi-user environment, with user 
> accounts, payments and so on.
>
> My immediate interest in this new model stems from the progress I’ve made 
> with Federatial over the last year.  My current model is essentially 
> selling bespoke TiddlyWiki-based products and services to business 
> customers. The real value that customers are paying for is the custom 
> development but there’s also a hosting component because I’m hosting some 
> services on behalf of clients. The custom development services are not 
> cheap because it is so labour intensive.
>
> My end game is to offer a conventional paid online service that gives 
> users the features of TiddlyWiki in an easy-to-use and much more flexible 
> online form. I’m currently using “Xememex” as the codename for this new 
> service. (It comes from the term “memex” coined by Vannevar Bush in his 
> 1945 essay “As We May Think”).
>
> My target audience for Xememex is not confined to existing 

Re: [tw] Annoying "Changes you made may not be saved." popup on leaving without editing

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Peter

Your site xscale.wiki is a nice piece of work.

The reason that the $:/config/SyncFilter trick doesn’t work anymore is because 
it turned out to be a mistake to re-use the same filter for both controlling 
which tiddlers are synced to a server and which tiddlers affect the unsaved 
changes warning when using a file saver.

Now there’s a dedicated filter $:/config/SaverFilter for the latter usage. 
Again, just set it to a filter that will always return an empty list, such as 
[is[tiddler]!is[tiddler]]

Best wishes

Jeremy.

> On 17 Sep 2017, at 23:09, Peter Merel  wrote:
> 
> Dear tiddlyfolks,
> 
> I have a public tiddlywiki up at http://xscale.wiki . Public editing is 
> unimportant because the community coordinates and versions its edits on 
> github as you'd naturally expect.
> 
> I know that's not how most people save edits but I confess for the life of me 
> I don't understand why not. Git integration ought to be a first priority for 
> tiddlywiki imho 
> 
> But that's not what this is about. When someone visits the site and then 
> navigates away they invariably get a popup "Do you want to leave this site? 
> Changes you made may not be saved." even though they've made no changes.
> 
> I've had a few complaints about it and don't see a setting to fix it. I tried 
> to set Autosave to No, and that didn't help. And I tried the 
> $:/config/SyncFilter trick Jeremy put up a couple years ago and that had no 
> effect either. Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
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[tw] Annoying "Changes you made may not be saved." popup on leaving without editing

[Peter Merel]

Dear tiddlyfolks,

I have a public tiddlywiki up at http://xscale.wiki . Public editing is 
unimportant because the community coordinates and versions its edits on 
github as you'd naturally expect.

I know that's not how most people save edits but I confess for the life of 
me I don't understand why not. Git integration ought to be a first priority 
for tiddlywiki imho 

But that's not what this is about. When someone visits the site and then 
navigates away they invariably get a popup "Do you want to leave this site? 
Changes you made may not be saved." even though they've made no changes.

I've had a few complaints about it and don't see a setting to fix it. I 
tried to set Autosave to No, and that didn't help. And I tried the 
$:/config/SyncFilter 
trick Jeremy put up a couple years ago and that had no effect either. Any 
ideas?

Thanks in advance!

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Re: [tw] Tiddly in the sky - error - not a tiddlywiki

[Arlen Beiler]

Are you using https://twcloud.github.io/tw5-dropbox/?

The one at tiddlywiki.com only supports TiddlyWiki Classic.

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 4:44 PM, kelsang sherab  wrote:

>
> With tiddly in the sky I try opening a TW - which usually works fine on
> FFox
>
> It starts reading the file and then Error - not a tiddlywiki.
>
> I moved the file to a different folder
> renamed it
> nothing
>
> any suggestions?
>
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[tw] How to invoke node.js so I see my own shadow tiddlers??

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

I have a new filter I've made in core/modules/filters.

If I invoke node.js like this:

tiddlywiki editions/tw5.com-server --server 8080 $:/core/save/all 
> text/plain text/html
>

then I can see all the documentation tiddlers, but my filter doesn't show 
up.

If I invoke node.js like this:

node tiddlywiki.js editions/server --server
>

then I see my new filter as a shadow filter, but I don't get any of the 
documentation that comes with the full TW. I want to work on documentation 
alongside working on the filter. So ... how do I get my filter to show up 
just like all the other shadow tiddlers? There must be some secret 
incantation to add new filters into the regular mix.

Thanks!
Mark

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[tw] Re: External Images from local hard disk

[PMario]

On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 10:04:53 PM UTC+2, PMario wrote:
>
> ./images/inori.jpg... is called a *relative *link. So the TW now 
> expects the imgage directory relative to the tiddlywiki.html file. ... If 
> you copy the file you'll need to copy the image directory too. ... 
>

Be aware, that these links only works for file://   tiddlywikis. .. It 
won't work out of the box, if you host your TW on the web. If you want it 
to work on the web, you'll need a real web server that can serve static 
files as a backend. 

This is not a TW specific issue. That's a rule of the web!!
 
-mario

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[tw] External Images from local hard disk

['Stephen Kimmel' via TiddlyWiki]

I know this has been discussed ad nauseum but I can't make it work for me. 
Can someone explain it to me, preferably in English and not rocketese, so I 
can understand it. I'm working in Firefox 55.0.3, on Windows 7.0, using 
Tiddlywiki 5.1.14. And I'm specifically working on parallax tiddlers. I 
have that working pretty well when using internal jpgS. I have gotten it to 
work with image files that reside on the hard disk in the root directory 
but I don't want to clutter that directory more than necessary.

The image I want to use is inori.jpg and it is located in 
C:/Images/Backgrounds/inori.jpg. 

I've trying to create an image tiddler of type image/jpeg and added a 
source field. My first try was to enter 
file:///C:/Images/Backgrounds/inori.jpg in the source field since that 
worked with the browser itself and since something similar seems to work 
with Motovun Jack.jpg... but I get nothing. I've tried about every 
combination of forward slashes and back slashes I can come up with and 
nothing happens. I would try using a _canonical_uri if I had first clue 
what the appropriate entry would be in this case. 

And this next part ... perhaps only Jeremy can answer this one... When I do 
figure out how to get my image into a wiki, will the datauri macro work on 
it?

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[tw] Re: New TW user perspective

[Mat]

Warm welcome TiddlyNoob!

TW is fantastic, and I didn't even know something like this existed. 
>

Please tell your friends! (examples 
). And, yeah, it IS amazing!!!


>- [...]as close to just plain text files as possible, so that I don't 
>rely on TW still being around 30 years from now, or rely on remembering 
> how 
>to use/maintain the infrastructure I created. So while macros, variables, 
>plugins, etc. are all very interesting and powerful, I want to limit these 
>as much as possible, and just use the built in markup language (WikiText) 
>and the regular tagging/linking system.
>
> Interesting point. It makes sense that you're using the nodejs version. 
You, as a developer, could possibly build a radically simplified 
alternative engine for the tiddlers that hold your personal content. So 
that only bare bone text is presented. Very interesting idea.
 

>
>- The tagging system is great, but the fact that titles of tiddlers 
>are unique identifiers is taking a while for me to get used to. I'm 
> anxious 
>every time I create a new tiddler because I feel like I need to put a lot 
>of thought in to the title, knowing that it has to be unique, but also 
>easily referenced via a link or tag. 
>
> Currently, yes. If we get tags and hard links to update on title changes, 
under some certain forms, then this should be solved IMO.
 

>
>- Part of my anxiety from above has to do with trying to fit 
>everything in my life (wiki, journal, to-do lists, etc) in one TW, and 
> thus 
>the titles take on even more importance because as I add things for the 
>next 20 years, it still needs to be organized, and every title needs to be 
>unique. I could use multiple TW's, however then I lose the ability to link 
>between concepts across multiple TW's, and trying to update TW and keeping 
>a consistent set of plugins, macros, etc across multiple TW's would be a 
>nightmare. Not to mention, I would need to spin up multiple TW's at once 
> if 
>I wanted a full picture of my life, which would be disconnected since it's 
>spread across multiple TW's.
>
> I thought the nodejs version allows a tiddler to be part of any TW? I only 
use vanilla TW so I don't know, but I thought that was one of the main 
selling points.

  

> I guess what would be nice is if there was a way to have everything in one 
> TW, but namespaced 
>

You may wish to check out this bit 
by TWizard Tobias Beer. His stuff 
is truly top notch and he has been an incredible force majeure in the 
community. (Unfortunately have not seen him lately.) The link is to his 
main site so much more stuff there than namespace bit.
 
Again, please do tell your friends or colleagues about TW. Everyone is 
valuable for the TW project.

<:-)

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Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Jeremy Ruston]

Again, thanks to everyone for contributing to another interesting thread.

To kick off, for a long time my ambition for migrating from Google Groups has 
been to eat our own dog food and move to a TiddlyWiki-based discussion board. 
Part of the motivation is that I believe we could build a tool that supports 
ordinary back-and-forth threaded discussion, but also adds features to enable 
community members to refactor/reindex/retag/remix posts to make them logically 
arranged and easy to find. I parrot that the purpose of TiddlyWiki is to make 
information reusable by chopping it up into chunks and weaving those chunks 
into a multiplicity of narrative sequences, and that’s pretty much what I see 
needed here.

Josiah’s original question was whether it was worth keeping the TiddlyWikiDocs 
and TiddlyWikiDev groups because they seem peripheral. The origins are that we 
created those two groups in response to the community feeling that those topics 
were crowding out the main group, and putting off newbies due to their 
complexity.

I’m not sure that I can see any case for closing them.

Having topic-specific mailing lists is common amongst open source projects. The 
problems, such as they are, are easily understood: people can have difficulty 
picking the right group for their post, and threads can drift between topics. 
For me, a critical thing is that in a classical open source project these are 
mailing lists, and not forums. The great advantage of mailing lists is that 
they are delivered via push to a single place (my inbox); with forums users 
need to visit each one to find the latest activity (unless they are 
sophisticated enough to use an RSS reader). Thus, for people like me who prefer 
to participate with discussion groups via email there’s very little cost to 
being subscribed to a low traffic group. I do appreciate that for people 
reading via the web interface it’s a little harder, but not much; Google Groups 
shows a count of unread posts in the groups to which you are subscribed.

Beyond Josiah’s original question there were some other parts of the thread I’d 
like to pick up:

* Firstly, TiddlyDesktop isn’t dead. It’s just that I’ve lost some enthusiasm 
for it because of the feedback that it wasn’t as good as their regular browser 
(in terms of spell checking etc). My worry has been that TiddlyDesktop 
development could degenerate into endlessly chasing end user browser features. 
Then Arlen started TiddlyServer which does an awful lot of the things that I 
was interested in exploring with TiddlyDesktop...

* Nonetheless, I am preparing an update for TiddlyDesktop with the latest 
version of nw.js, so that will remain an option for Firefox refugees

* As I understand it, the TiddlyWiki Stack Exchange site couldn’t really be a 
substitute for the general TiddlyWiki discussion group because Stack Exchange 
is ruthlessly focussed on the Q format. At least when they started, they 
discouraged free-wheeling discussion and focussed on asking and answering 
questions. Unless that’s changed, Stack Exchange could only host a component of 
our online community

* Josiah’s comments about "HERE IS THE SCREENPLAY MAKER" & "THERE IS THE 
BRILLIANT GTD SYSTEM” suggest that we’ve not done a good job of communicating 
the purpose of “editions” of TiddlyWiki. The intention is precisely as 
described: a series of canned, off-the-shelf starter wikis for various specific 
purposes. The presentation isn’t good at the moment but that particular wheel 
has been invented...

* Josiah suggests catering for the needs of newbies to TiddlyWiki is with a 
dedicated discussion group. While a dedicated group could be useful, I think 
it’s even more important that we cater for newbies at tiddlywiki.com 
. It’s actually quite a dedicated newbie who gets from 
tiddlywiki.com  to the point of finding the discussion 
groups

* There’s often a feeling that making changes to tiddlywiki.com 
 isn’t practical, which I think is why we’re discussing 
using pinned threads to solve problems that should really be solved on the main 
site.  I’m very much open to contributions that make changes, but those 
contributions have to happen… 

* The proposal has come up of migrating from Google Groups to another bit of 
forum software. One problem is that I don’t see any forum software that really 
moves significantly beyond Google Groups. Things like Discourse are pretty 
old-fashioned and traditional. But in any event, any move needs to consider 
who’s going to host it, who’s going to pay for it, who’s going to ensure 
backups are taken etc. It is more than just choosing and deploying software to 
a server.

I have some thoughts for where we might go from here:

* We need to get to the point where a bigger team in the community can update 
tiddlywiki.com  with links to new examples, plugins etc 
so that we spread the workload

* We need to move 

[tw] Re: New TW user perspective

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

>
> The tagging system is great, but the fact that titles of tiddlers are 
> unique identifiers is taking a while for me to get used to. I'm anxious 
> every time I create a new tiddler because I feel like I need to put a lot 
> of thought in to the title, knowing that it has to be unique, but also 
> easily referenced via a link or tag. 

 
Yes. I've mentioned this many times. One of the prime tenets of database 
theory is that you don't make double-use of a field, especially not a field 
that needs to be immutable. To do so invites trouble eventually.

The workaround is to give a unique (perhaps datestamped) name to each 
tiddler with a general idea of what it does, and then use the caption field 
as the view title. Some of the macros (toc, tabs) in TW already  make use 
of the caption field instead of the title field, so that gives you a head 
start.

Mark

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[tw] New TW user perspective

[TiddlyNoob]

Hey everyone,

I'm a software developer and just started using TiddlyWiki a few days ago, 
and I would just like to share my perspective on it so far.

TW is fantastic, and I didn't even know something like this existed. I've 
had this almost subconscious feeling for years now that I needed to have 
some kind of easy workflow for documentation, not only for work, but for my 
life in general. I have been looking for a mixture between wiki, blog, and 
journal solutions using markup syntax like markdown, but completely 
private, version controlled, and stored in text files.

Even after only a few days I'm fully convinced TW is the answer I've been 
looking for. Right now I'm running it on nodejs using TW folders, not 
single file, and using a git repo for syncing/backing up/version control.

With that said, here are some of my concerns or just some of my particular 
needs/assumptions:

   - TW is extremely powerful and flexible, and the software dev side of me 
   wants to over engineer it. However, my main objective is to document my 
   life in a form that is as technology platform independent as possible, as 
   close to just plain text files as possible, so that I don't rely on TW 
   still being around 30 years from now, or rely on remembering how to 
   use/maintain the infrastructure I created. So while macros, variables, 
   plugins, etc. are all very interesting and powerful, I want to limit these 
   as much as possible, and just use the built in markup language (WikiText) 
   and the regular tagging/linking system.
   - The tagging system is great, but the fact that titles of tiddlers are 
   unique identifiers is taking a while for me to get used to. I'm anxious 
   every time I create a new tiddler because I feel like I need to put a lot 
   of thought in to the title, knowing that it has to be unique, but also 
   easily referenced via a link or tag. 
   - Part of my anxiety from above has to do with trying to fit everything 
   in my life (wiki, journal, to-do lists, etc) in one TW, and thus the titles 
   take on even more importance because as I add things for the next 20 years, 
   it still needs to be organized, and every title needs to be unique. I could 
   use multiple TW's, however then I lose the ability to link between concepts 
   across multiple TW's, and trying to update TW and keeping a consistent set 
   of plugins, macros, etc across multiple TW's would be a nightmare. Not to 
   mention, I would need to spin up multiple TW's at once if I wanted a full 
   picture of my life, which would be disconnected since it's spread across 
   multiple TW's.
   - So really my concerns have nothing to do with TW itself, but just how 
   to best organize everything in my life into tags and titles, coming up with 
   naming conventions and structure.

I guess what would be nice is if there was a way to have everything in one 
TW, but namespaced or some other ability to have multiple contexts, so that 
you could have simple titles like "TODO List" but it would be context aware 
such that it could be under a specific project and I wouldn't have to worry 
about conflicts with other tiddlers named "TODO List". This way, I would 
still only have to worry about maintaining and updating plugins, macros, 
etc for one TW, and I could link between contexts using some namespace 
convention. I realize I could create a namespacing convention of my own, 
but then I would end up with a lot of added complexity.

Anyway, that's my perspective on TW after a few days. I have a lot to 
learn, but I'm really excited I found this.

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[tw] Re: Is there a permanent TiddlyFox solution?

[Jim W]

Yeah I actually do have system level encryption turned on, so I'm fine if 
someone were to physically steal my laptop but I primarily use TiddlyWiki 
at work connected to my work domain. I don't necessarily trust every IT 
user that walks in the door or is planning to leave the company. So the 
technically double encryption I was using with the single file was 
necessary in my opinion. Even besides protecting my data from an internal 
rogue admin, an outside actor might compromise an privileged domain account 
trawl the network and grab my data. I'm considering putting my node.js 
tiddly inside of a veracrypt container (as recommended 
 
by Jeremy) but that will be a lot more cumbersome than the single file full 
encryption was and really I'll be similarly vulnerable once the container 
is mounted and unencrypted. Maybe I'm overthinking that, I'm sure even with 
the the single file encryption there were vulnerabilities to consider, but 
it seems fairly trivial to me to grab the unencrypted file sitting on the 
file-system once the OS is unlocked.

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 7:42:06 PM UTC-5, PMario wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 3:37:20 PM UTC+2, Jim W wrote:
>>
>> I converted over to Node.js but I guess now I've lost the ability to 
>> encrypt all my tiddlers 
>> ? There's a plugin 
>>  to manually 
>> encrypt tiddlers but it looks abandoned without the important feature of 
>> confirming 
>> the password  
>> (I want 
>> to avoid ruining a tiddler with one typo). 
>>
>
> If you are able to use the node version, you should be also able to set up 
> your OS to encrypt every file in your data directory on the system level. 
> ... So there should be no need to encrypt the stuff 2 times. 
>
> Most people I know, don't consider this option, because it's conpletely 
> transparent. So you basically don't see, that the files are encrypted. They 
> just look like normal files. ... And if you can't see it, ... it's not 
> there ... right?
>
> just my 2 cents
> -mario
>
>

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Re: [tw] Re: Is there a permanent TiddlyFox solution?

[Arlen Beiler]

No, the TiddlyFox saver is incredibly useful and is probably here to stay,
given that the actual space it takes is very small. The only thing it
requires is that the host has access to the page DOM, which can be
accomplished several ways and has some very good use cases. I'm not Jeremy,
but I do have reasons I want to see it stay, and I doubt I am the only one.

So, in short, to maintain backward compatibility, and because it still has
plenty of use cases, I don't think it will be taken out.

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Kevin Kleinfelter <
kleinfelter.gro...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Suppose I decide to retain an old Firefox, just to run Tiddlyfox.
> Tiddlywiki has code to save data to the local HTML file via Tiddlyfox.  Is
> the plan for TW5 to retain that code for a long time, or is the plan to
> retire that code shortly after Firefox makes TiddlyFox obsolete?
>
> i.e. If I continue to use TW5 with my obsolete Firefox, will I have to be
> careful not to update core TW5 to a version which breaks local auto-save?
>
> On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 10:39:58 PM UTC-4, Mark S. wrote:
>>
>> You can still use the default save, which saves as a download.  I don't
>> think that this ability was available in the original TWC. So you can still
>> have your guerrilla wiki, though it takes a little more thought. Just keep
>> clicking save whenever you need to save. When you need to start a new
>> session, just find the last save in the downloads list. As a bonus, there
>> is automatically a trail of backups.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure (it's been a long time) that the original TWC always
>> needed a little bit of java code and a running JRE. It certainly did when I
>> first started using it. So you're memories of the good old days may be a
>> little bit gilded.
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 6:51:48 PM UTC-7, Kevin Kleinfelter
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> One of my main use-cases for Tiddlywiki is to capture my configuration
>>> when I build/rebuild a machine.  In the old days, on a fresh OS, I could
>>>
>>>- login
>>>- download from tiddlywiki.com
>>>- And begin capturing my config
>>>
>>> Or I could copy my existing TW knowledge base from a backup, and capture
>>> my config there.  The key thing is that I really didn't have to install
>>> stuff in order to start capturing.  My knowledge base was just *there*.
>>>
>>> Then the browsers decided to get more secure. After a while, it reached
>>> the point where I had to install Firefox and a plugin.  Not quite a
>>> zero-setup, but at least they were both packaged installs where I could
>>> just accept the default options.
>>>
>>> Now, I have to install node.js (where I can take the defaults on a
>>> packaged install), use npm to install tiddlywiki (and work out why it is
>>> giving me a "npm WARN enoent ENOENT: no such file or directory" error),
>>> then look up the commands to init a TW, then set up a Windows service or a
>>> Linux daemon to run node in the background, and *then* I can start using TW.
>>>
>>> Also in the old day, I could use TW on a fully locked-down
>>> corporate-controlled PC where software cannot be installed.  I brought it
>>> in as a guerrilla wiki.  I successfully defend its use as "it's just a web
>>> page -- you don't want to forbid people to save web pages to disk do you?"
>>>
>>> Yeah, a reasonably technical person *can* set up a node.js TW, and a
>>> flexible person who's not in a hurry and doesn't mind "friction" can make
>>> the download-and-replace-old-html-file process work.  But honestly, TW5
>>> doesn't have the same appeal that TWC had.  It is significantly more
>>> complex to setup and operate.  I'm probably going to migrate from TWC to
>>> TW5 because I can't find a one-click-install wiki that supports text and
>>> image and stores each page in a separate file and can (mostly) import TWC
>>> data.
>>>
>>> Its a wonderful creation if you want to putz with your wiki.  If you
>>> just want to start capturing your data in a text+data wiki, it has lost its
>>> original simplicity.
>>>
>>>
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Re: [tw] Re: Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[Lost Admin]

I didn't know there was a Reddit for tiddlywiki. I will go stealth reading 
it for a while.

I use reddit to get very specific news about very specific things. 
sub-reddits that turn into a forum (like this) I drop pretty quickly. But, 
that's just my useage pattern. I am fully away others work completely 
differently.

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 5:15:03 PM UTC-4, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Its here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/ ... 
>

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[tw] Re: Transclusion and Substitution ambiguity

[TiddlyNoob]

Thanks for the reply. That's what I figured the documentation was trying to 
explain. 

I really think the documentation needs to be more explicit about the fact 
that substitution is not a general concept, rather it is a specific process 
in the context of TW, given that it only applies to a very specific 
situation (replacing variables and parameters in macro definitions during 
macro calls). 

The definitions of both transclusion and substitution are very imprecise, 
and the distinction the documentation makes between substitution and 
transclusion (Substitution happens before wiki text processing) is very 
ambiguous, because for example, it leaves you thinking the attribute 
examples are substitution, not transclusion. The definition of transclusion 
states that it is the process of including the contents of one tiddler in 
another tiddler, but clearly there is a much more broad usage.

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 7:41:07 PM UTC-4, Mark S. wrote:
>
> I was kind of waiting for the question ;-)
>
> It might be better to look at the documentation for substitution. 
> Everything you saw on that page gave examples of transclusion. Substitution 
> occurs *inside* macros using either $var$ or $(var)$ (environmental 
> variables).  In the example 
>
> <$text text=<>/>
>
> The *results* of a macro are being transcluded as the value passed to the 
> text attribute. Substitution would only occur if you called a macro with 
> parameters (or used environmental variable markers)
>
> \define myMacro() $(currentTiddler)$ is my favorite tiddler
>
> If you were then inside the tiddler, CatTiddler the results of the above 
> text widget would be:
>
> CatTiddler is my favorite tiddler
>
> The value of <> would be transcluded to the text attribute, but 
> the substitution would occur inside the macro.
>
> The main thing to get out of this is, whenever you need to join 2 pieces 
> of text, you are probably going to need a macro and it's text-substituting 
> ability.
>
> It's probably best not to get hung up on the terminology at the start. Try 
> a few examples of your own for transclusions and maybe even defining/using 
> your own macros. 
>
> Good luck,
> Mark
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 3:29:29 PM UTC-7, TiddlyNoob wrote:
>>
>> Hey guys,
>>
>> I'm a software developer and just started learning TiddlyWiki a few days 
>> ago. I'm trying to grasp the fundamentals before delving too deep in the 
>> complicated stuff. 
>>
>> Transclusion seems like an important concept to grasp, and I could get by 
>> with the general understanding that it's simply including the contents of a 
>> macro, variable, or tiddler field in some context, whether it be in the 
>> body of a tiddler, or as the value of an HTML attribute, but I can't help 
>> but question the ambiguity in the documentation, especially when it 
>> compares transclusion to substitution.
>>
>> The definition of transclusion in 
>> the documentation describes it as a process of including the contents of 
>> one tiddler into another tiddler.
>>
>> The Transclusion and Substitution 
>>  documentation 
>> basically describes every type of substitution as an example of 
>> transclusion, whether it's a tiddler field, macro, or variable you are 
>> referencing, and whether or not you are doing it in the body of a tiddler, 
>> or in a filter, or as the value of an attribute. It then goes on to say 
>> that the key distinction between transclusion and substitution is that 
>> substitution happens before WikiText processing, so it's just a simple 
>> substitution of text without WikiText processing. Transclusion, however, 
>> includes WikiText processing.
>>
>> But the example it gives for transclusion of a macro in an attribute:
>>
>> <$text text=<>/>
>>
>> ..seems to be just regular substitution, since there is no WikiText 
>> processing.
>>
>> This confusion seems apparent in other places in the documentation as 
>> well, such as in HTML in WikiText 
>> , where it describes 
>> examples that use tiddler fields attr={{tiddler}} as using transclusion, 
>> but then the macro examples >> do not 
>> mention transclusion at all.
>>
>

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[tw] Re: Another shot at kanban

[Eskha]

Well done Riz!

A very useful and good looking plugin.


Best regards.

Eskha

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[tw] Re: Another shot at kanban

[Reid Gould]

Hi Riz,

Very interesting adaptation of the sitepoint article 
! It 
does feel rather good to see the full Trello interface working inside 
TiddlyWiki. 

The technique of removing the $:/tags/PageTemplate tag from the default 
layout elements is an idea that never occurred to me. It is certainly a 
good way to look past other distractions that I may have open in my story 
and focus on the big picture. My first thought is that perhaps this could 
be a feature on its own, a way to "maximize" any single tiddler, rather 
than creating an entirely isolated interface. If the Trello UI were 
contained in a tiddler this way, it would also be compatible with the built 
in "Open In New Window" feature.

I see there is some discussion in this thread about how to enable the 
ability to drop at the end of lists, and inside empty lists. To enable both 
of these in my plugin, BLC 
, I followed the 
example of the built in list-tagged-draggable 

 macro. 
You'll see it uses an extra $droppable widget outside of the $list with two 
elements inside, one which is invisible but always present to provide area 
to drop onto, and a second which only shows up when it's parent dynamically 
receives the "tc-dragover" class while an active drag is hovering. It will 
be interesting to see what solution you choose.

I looked at how you are storing the list order. I'm happy to see that you 
chose to store it in the list field of the "list" tiddler while allowing 
tags to determine visibility. But also, I've noticed some bugs:
When I open a tiddler that is a list, then open the info panel, and choose 
the "list" tab, there are some entries that have titles of nonexistent or 
deleted tiddlers, I dragged the same card into each list once, and indeed, 
the card is now showing in each list's "list" field. 
If I create multiple tiddlers in the normal TW view, tag them with a list, 
then go into Tekan view, cards I drag onto the new cards only go down to 
the bottom of the ones that were already there.  
If I have a draft of a list open in the main view, it will show up as a 
separate list in Tekan. Drafts of cards also show up as separate cards. 
If I give a tiddler any tags in normal view, then drag it in Tekan, it 
removes all the tags I gave it and only the tag of the list remains.
My last item is not a "bug" but a concern about performance and stability. 
The cards store all their text in the "title" field of the tiddler. The 
title field is also how tiddlers are stored in lists. When typing long 
sentences in many cards, this means list operations must handle very many 
characters. My solution to this was to allow text content in the title 
(preferred to be two or three words, or even better a unique ID), but also 
provide a new field ("shorttext") in which users can type long sentences or 
paragraphs without having to worry about performance problems.
These are things I've also run into and are all solved in BLC 
. Its open source of 
course, so feel free to see if any solutions there suit Tekan.

I think that imitating the appearance of Trello closely is a fantastic way 
to give users a familiar and comfortable interface. I'm also impressed with 
your edit modal. I attempted something like that in an early version of BLC 
but was not able to get it working to my satisfaction. 

Since we are both interested in providing this function to TiddlyWiki, I 
imagine a collaboration between us would go far. A stable and complete 
"version 1" of *DropBoard* (at that point, formerly BLC 
!) should be ready 
within two weeks time. If you're interested in talking about how we could 
bring the best of these two things together, feel free to send me a private 
email, or we can start a new public discussion for that on its own.

- Reid

On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 8:54:40 PM UTC-5, Riz wrote:
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
>
> Hi there.
>
> I was amused by the attempt made at Kanban TW. However, I did not need 
> that many features. So I went ahead a tried to do something on an empty 
> wiki. Add to that Telmiger's point that since we are mimicking the 
> functionality of Trello, might as well look like it too. One thing led to 
> another and here is Tekan. 
>
> Demo and Download: https://ibnishak.github.io/twstuff/projects/tekan/
>
> I have given an outline on usage on the demo page. 
>
> Let me know what you think.
>
> live long and prosper,
> Riz 
>
>   
>

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Re: [tw] Re: Is there a permanent TiddlyFox solution?

[Kevin Kleinfelter]

Suppose I decide to retain an old Firefox, just to run Tiddlyfox. 
 Tiddlywiki has code to save data to the local HTML file via Tiddlyfox.  Is 
the plan for TW5 to retain that code for a long time, or is the plan to 
retire that code shortly after Firefox makes TiddlyFox obsolete?

i.e. If I continue to use TW5 with my obsolete Firefox, will I have to be 
careful not to update core TW5 to a version which breaks local auto-save?

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 10:39:58 PM UTC-4, Mark S. wrote:
>
> You can still use the default save, which saves as a download.  I don't 
> think that this ability was available in the original TWC. So you can still 
> have your guerrilla wiki, though it takes a little more thought. Just keep 
> clicking save whenever you need to save. When you need to start a new 
> session, just find the last save in the downloads list. As a bonus, there 
> is automatically a trail of backups. 
>
> I'm pretty sure (it's been a long time) that the original TWC always 
> needed a little bit of java code and a running JRE. It certainly did when I 
> first started using it. So you're memories of the good old days may be a 
> little bit gilded. 
>
> Mark.
>
> On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 6:51:48 PM UTC-7, Kevin Kleinfelter 
> wrote:
>>
>> One of my main use-cases for Tiddlywiki is to capture my configuration 
>> when I build/rebuild a machine.  In the old days, on a fresh OS, I could
>>
>>- login
>>- download from tiddlywiki.com
>>- And begin capturing my config
>>
>> Or I could copy my existing TW knowledge base from a backup, and capture 
>> my config there.  The key thing is that I really didn't have to install 
>> stuff in order to start capturing.  My knowledge base was just *there*.
>>
>> Then the browsers decided to get more secure. After a while, it reached 
>> the point where I had to install Firefox and a plugin.  Not quite a 
>> zero-setup, but at least they were both packaged installs where I could 
>> just accept the default options.
>>
>> Now, I have to install node.js (where I can take the defaults on a 
>> packaged install), use npm to install tiddlywiki (and work out why it is 
>> giving me a "npm WARN enoent ENOENT: no such file or directory" error), 
>> then look up the commands to init a TW, then set up a Windows service or a 
>> Linux daemon to run node in the background, and *then* I can start using TW.
>>
>> Also in the old day, I could use TW on a fully locked-down 
>> corporate-controlled PC where software cannot be installed.  I brought it 
>> in as a guerrilla wiki.  I successfully defend its use as "it's just a web 
>> page -- you don't want to forbid people to save web pages to disk do you?"
>>
>> Yeah, a reasonably technical person *can* set up a node.js TW, and a 
>> flexible person who's not in a hurry and doesn't mind "friction" can make 
>> the download-and-replace-old-html-file process work.  But honestly, TW5 
>> doesn't have the same appeal that TWC had.  It is significantly more 
>> complex to setup and operate.  I'm probably going to migrate from TWC to 
>> TW5 because I can't find a one-click-install wiki that supports text and 
>> image and stores each page in a separate file and can (mostly) import TWC 
>> data.
>>
>> Its a wonderful creation if you want to putz with your wiki.  If you just 
>> want to start capturing your data in a text+data wiki, it has lost its 
>> original simplicity.
>>
>>
>>

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[tw] Re: Is Anyone Using Noteself Successfully?

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

When I attempt to log in through Firefox at 
https://noteself.github.io/online/, I get yellow sticky messages like:

https://noteself.github.io/online/Sync error while processing 
'$:/StoryList': 
{"status":500,"name":"indexed_db_went_bad","message":"unknown","reason":"Failed 
to open indexedDB, are you in private browsing mode?"}

I'm not in private browsing mode, BTW.

I think what happened is that I used the NS delete function to test if it 
was possible to purge data. I think bits of the original data are stuck in 
there, so it's in some sort in-between state. Is there a way to completely 
purge NS, including any cookies, so it can get a fresh start?

Thanks,
Mark


On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 4:17:17 AM UTC-7, Danielo Rodríguez 
wrote:
>
> Hello Richard,
>
> NoteSelf keeps singing you in because it uses the cookie of your browser. 
> As long as the cookie exists you will be logged in. One solution is to open 
> the page on the incognito mode.
>
> Same file works fine from the filing system.
>>
>
> There seems to be a misconception about how NoteSelf is intended to be 
> used. The offline version is packaged as it is because it is intended to be 
> used as a single file, not to be served from a web-server. For serving it 
> from a web server the online edition is a much better fit. Sadly I don't 
> have time to support this kind of deploys neither to write a manual.
>
> Please take in mind that you can not communicate any resource that mixes 
> different levels of security, the browser will not allow you. This means 
> that you can not talk to an http page from an https page.
>
> Regards
>

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[tw] Re: A Comment On Migration

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

> Another option is TrumplyWiki. This will make it clear that "this is 
> something veeery different".
>

You don't want something that will be obsolete in 173 weeks, 6 days, 2 
hours, and 53 minutes. Not that I'm keeping track or anything.

Mark

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[tw] Re: [Noteself] load error using empty.html ($tw.boot.boot is not a function)

[Lost Admin]

On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 7:09:26 AM UTC-4, Danielo Rodríguez 
wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> This is very inconvenient, and very hard to trace.
> Lost Admin, If I open the link you have provided it reloads the page a 
> couple of times, but after that it then starts to work and from that point 
> the page no longer crashes or reloads. The page crashes randomly at first 
> because it has to create the required environment, and it creates a part of 
> it each time it reloads. This is NOT by design, but it happens, and it only 
> happens on the offline version.
>

Likewise, it only happened to me on the version I got from your download 
button. To reproduce it I had to clear all data from Firefox, which is 
surprisingly difficult.
 

> As time passes, it is getting harder and harder to keep both versions (the 
> online and offline ones) on sync, and sometimes it takes time that I would 
> better invest in developing NoteSelf itself.
>
> The fact that I can't reproduce the issue on any of my computers or mobile 
> devices does not help neither: for me it always works, an it's quite 
> frustrating. I'm thinking about hidding the offline version a bit more and 
> put a disclamer about it's beta stage.
>

That is your choice and I respect it. But if I can't host everything on my 
own system(s), I will look for something else. Self-hosting is part of what 
got me looking at TiddlyWiki and the offline/online mode(s) of NoteSelf 
 combined with the per-tiddler conflict resolution got me very interested 
in NoteSelf.

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[tw] Re: A thought about licensing and money

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

a) This would probably prevent most low-key, small-scale use cases of 
> TiddlyWiki in a company. If only one or two employees would occasionally 
> take notes in TiddlyWiki, the company probably wouldn't go through the 
> hassle of purchasing a licence for them. They would rather ban the software 
> outright. It's not just about the cost of the licence, but also because of 
> the bureaucracy involved in adding another piece of software to the "pool". 
> The IT department would probably be forced to track all "installations", 
> make sure they are up to date etc. (simply because it's the usual process). 
> This is also the reason why companies might be more likely to pay for a 
> "hosted" solution. 


Yes. This is exactly what I was trying to explain. In large companies, 
productivity isn't nearly as important as continuity. All the IT managers 
care about is that a mega-virus doesn't occur on their watch. In some 
companies all the software that is available has to be approved and 
stitched into a large block that's part of each station's boot cycle. And, 
whenever a software program is started a boot program searches the net to 
make sure that a license is legally available (the company will only buy a 
limited number of licenses).  You can say "it's just a web page" but today 
with constantly evolving threats the admin can't be sure that that ensures 
security. And certainly, if you need (want) it to run on node.js it's no 
longer just a web page. One can only imagine an IT admin's alarm at 
discovering that there is a surreptitious web server running on her network.

Mark

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[tw] Re: Is Anyone Using Noteself Successfully?

[RichardWilliamSmith]

Hi Danielo,

Thanks for your reply. I will look at setting up https on the Pi. Do you 
know what is causing the problem over http (vs file)? While I get it now 
that you didn't mean for people to host this file somewhere (I took 
'offline' to mean just 'not hosted'), it is only really useful if it can be 
accessed from mobile and thowing it up alongside my actual couch seemed 
like the easiest thing to do.

Regards,
Richard


On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 9:17:17 PM UTC+10, Danielo Rodríguez 
wrote:
>
> Hello Richard,
>
> NoteSelf keeps singing you in because it uses the cookie of your browser. 
> As long as the cookie exists you will be logged in. One solution is to open 
> the page on the incognito mode.
>
> Same file works fine from the filing system.
>>
>
> There seems to be a misconception about how NoteSelf is intended to be 
> used. The offline version is packaged as it is because it is intended to be 
> used as a single file, not to be served from a web-server. For serving it 
> from a web server the online edition is a much better fit. Sadly I don't 
> have time to support this kind of deploys neither to write a manual.
>
> Please take in mind that you can not communicate any resource that mixes 
> different levels of security, the browser will not allow you. This means 
> that you can not talk to an http page from an https page.
>
> Regards
>

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[tw] Re: A Comment On Migration

[Mat]

IMO we should call the next one TiddlyLeaks to imply the amount of 
information overflow that it can hold. 

Another option is TrumplyWiki. This will make it clear that "this is 
something veeery different".

Or maybe we should just refer to TW as "an addon to the google discussion 
forum"?

<:-)

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[tw] Re: Is Anyone Using Noteself Successfully?

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello Richard,

NoteSelf keeps singing you in because it uses the cookie of your browser. 
As long as the cookie exists you will be logged in. One solution is to open 
the page on the incognito mode.

Same file works fine from the filing system.
>

There seems to be a misconception about how NoteSelf is intended to be 
used. The offline version is packaged as it is because it is intended to be 
used as a single file, not to be served from a web-server. For serving it 
from a web server the online edition is a much better fit. Sadly I don't 
have time to support this kind of deploys neither to write a manual.

Please take in mind that you can not communicate any resource that mixes 
different levels of security, the browser will not allow you. This means 
that you can not talk to an http page from an https page.

Regards

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[tw] Re: [Noteself] load error using empty.html ($tw.boot.boot is not a function)

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello everyone,

This is very inconvenient, and very hard to trace.
Lost Admin, If I open the link you have provided it reloads the page a 
couple of times, but after that it then starts to work and from that point 
the page no longer crashes or reloads. The page crashes randomly at first 
because it has to create the required environment, and it creates a part of 
it each time it reloads. This is NOT by design, but it happens, and it only 
happens on the offline version.

As time passes, it is getting harder and harder to keep both versions (the 
online and offline ones) on sync, and sometimes it takes time that I would 
better invest in developing NoteSelf itself.

The fact that I can't reproduce the issue on any of my computers or mobile 
devices does not help neither: for me it always works, an it's quite 
frustrating. I'm thinking about hidding the offline version a bit more and 
put a disclamer about it's beta stage.

Regards

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[tw] Re: Another shot at kanban

[Sylvain Naudin]

Wahouh !! Amazing peace of work Riz !! I miss you with your css skill with 
TW !!

Thanks for sharing.
Sylvain

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Re: [tw] Re: A thought about licensing and money

[Jeremy Ruston]

Back in 2005/6, tiddlywiki.com  had quite a prominent 
PayPal donation button. Over the course of a year it accrued enough money for 
me to buy a decent camera, which was quite a thrill at the time. Then, in 2007, 
I sold my company Osmosoft to BT and I felt that having just profited from 
TiddlyWiki it wasn’t appropriate for me to be asking for money.

Over the following years, my views changed even more. The fundamental thing I 
realised was that it was wrong to see the TiddlyWiki community as a group from 
whom I can extract money. It was better for me to view the community as my 
partners in making TiddlyWiki better. Without the enthusiasm of the community 
no doubt I personally would have lost impetus a long time ago. More than that, 
it’s the contributions made by others that makes TiddlyWiki so interesting and 
useful. Whether those contributions take the form of code, documentation, or 
just chewing the fat with others in the community, it’s the community that 
breathes life into the project.

So, now, building on that idea, rather than seeking to make money *from* the 
community, I’m much more interested in making money *with* the community.

One simple scenario in which that might happen can be illustrated with one of 
my favourite examples of a TW5 edition. It’s tool to help teach volleyball 
students to high school students:

http://pespot.tiddlyspot.com/#Task%201:%5B%5BTask%201%5D%5D%20%5B%5BTask%205%5D%5D%20%5B%5BContent%205%5D%5D%209
 

There’s a few things I think worthy of note:

* As far as I know, the creator of PESpot is not a software developer. 
Nonetheless, they’ve been able to build the system themselves (perhaps with the 
help of the community), rather than having to engage a software developer and 
then explain to them what they want. The difference is profound. When you 
engage an outsider to build your system you’ve introduced a communication gap 
into the system: experience shows that it is very hard to describe the 
requirements of a system that doesn’t exist yet. In contrast, with TiddlyWiki, 
the author was able to combine their own expertise in the domain with the 
ability to build the system by incremental trial and error. The incremental 
approach allows the author to learn by doing, and removes the need for them to 
be able to state the full requirements up front. For me, that is the enduring 
magic of TiddlyWiki: to empower people to build their own digital tools without 
being a conventional software developer

* There’s really no business model for building tools that are so specific to a 
particular niche. It’s hard to imagine raising VC funding for a software 
company specialising in high school volleyball

* Although the author was able to successfully build this tool in TiddlyWiki, 
it’s nature as a single file edition puts a limit on its ease of use. But 
imagine taking this same wiki and putting in on a server with user accounts and 
billing. Then the author could sell it as a service that individual high school 
volleyball coaches could sign up for

So, I think that what is needed here is a sort of wholesale version of 
TiddlySpace that enables anyone to drop a working single file TiddlyWiki into 
the system and spin up a full multi-user environment, with user accounts, 
payments and so on.

My immediate interest in this new model stems from the progress I’ve made with 
Federatial over the last year.  My current model is essentially selling bespoke 
TiddlyWiki-based products and services to business customers. The real value 
that customers are paying for is the custom development but there’s also a 
hosting component because I’m hosting some services on behalf of clients. The 
custom development services are not cheap because it is so labour intensive.

My end game is to offer a conventional paid online service that gives users the 
features of TiddlyWiki in an easy-to-use and much more flexible online form. 
I’m currently using “Xememex” as the codename for this new service. (It comes 
from the term “memex” coined by Vannevar Bush in his 1945 essay “As We May 
Think”).

My target audience for Xememex is not confined to existing TiddlyWiki users. 
Ultimately, I’d like it to be a truly mass market system, with Trello perhaps 
being a model for how things might go.

However, I’m quite a few months away from having all the necessary 
infrastructure to do Xememex as a retailer at scale, not the least of which is 
billing and payments.

So, to summarise, I think the opportunities for me right now are:

1) Finding new corporate clients who want bespoke development around 
TiddlyWiki-based online services
2) Finding TiddlyWiki community members who are interested in partnering to 
turn TiddlyWiki-based solutions that they have already built into a commercial 
service

All the while, of course, building towards my ultimate goal of a retail service.

Best wishes

Jeremy

[tw] Re: A thought about licensing and money

[stefct4]

Hi Richard, 

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 11:58:54 PM UTC+2, RichardWilliamSmith 
wrote:
>
> What if Tiddlywiki had a licence that meant you had to pay Jeremy if you 
> wanted to use it for anything work related? (https://licensezero.com/)
>

I'm not sure this is a good idea for the following two reasons:

a) This would probably prevent most low-key, small-scale use cases of 
TiddlyWiki in a company. If only one or two employees would occasionally 
take notes in TiddlyWiki, the company probably wouldn't go through the 
hassle of purchasing a licence for them. They would rather ban the software 
outright. It's not just about the cost of the licence, but also because of 
the bureaucracy involved in adding another piece of software to the "pool". 
The IT department would probably be forced to track all "installations", 
make sure they are up to date etc. (simply because it's the usual process). 
This is also the reason why companies might be more likely to pay for a 
"hosted" solution. 

b) If somebody was sent a TiddlyWiki file (containing data, notes etc.) to 
their company account and opened it without having paid for TiddlyWiki, 
would they violate the licence? What about visiting a web page with a 
hosted TiddlyWiki? Technically, by loading the code into your browser, you 
would be "using" the software. What if you downloaded the wiki to your 
local computer? What if you added a note? TiddlyWiki mixes content and 
code. Therefore I believe TiddlyWiki can only work with a "permissive" open 
source licence. Even the GPL might cause trouble, due to copyleft.

Cheers,

Stef 

 

>
> Of course such a thing would be difficult to 'enforce' but I bet there are 
> quite a few people using it at work or for work-related activities who 
> would quite easily be able to have their employer pay $50-$250 (or ?) for 
> the right to do so. I imagine that the average office already pays out 
> thousands in licences to Microsoft et al, on top of the machines 
> themselves, and this would be a drop in the ocean.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Regards,
> Richard
>
>

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