Re: [tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Brian McMullan]

I don't use Firefox; most of the corps [I work with at least] disallow 
firefox, no sense falling in love with something at home that I cannot 
reliably use elsewhere.

Chrome yes, and no crashes in 5.1.13, but operationally its very subpar to 
how things work in IE.   Saving: "Thou cannot savest where thy wanteth 
without a miracle (aka manual intervention) each save".  Chrome also 
doesn't play nice with ext links that open local or network folders, it 
opens them, but in it's browser view vs kicking off Windows Explorer like 
IE does (and I desire it to operate the IE way).It's considerably 
better to use TiddlyDesktop and have a three click and 6 second startup 
penalty but avoid the multitude of "save penalties" and op ugliness 
behavior.

No disagreements that IE is in many ways inferior to Chrome, but IE does 
have killer app - the Tiddly IE add-on that enforces tiddlers be saved 
where they're supposed to with a single click.  When TiddlyWiki runs 
reliably in IE, it's the best of all worlds which is why I settled on it. 
 Seriously, four years of using IE 11 across many TW5 versions and no 
problem.  But, 5.1.13 and problem exists.  5.1.14 beta, have yet to have a 
crash, few kinks still being worked out though of course.  

Thanks for the feedback and sorry for posting in the wrong spot, I'll carry 
on with TiddlyDesktop until 5.1.14 is released and hope for the best.

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Re: [tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[BJ]

Hi Brian,
better to start a new thread so that people with experience of using IE can 
respond.

all the best
BJ

On Sunday, January 29, 2017 at 6:46:36 PM UTC+1, Brian McMullan wrote:
>
> First post, sorry for the intrusion in existing thread.  Using TW for 
> about four years, love it, moreover DEPEND on it.  Jeremy you are a mad 
> genius is all I can say.  But, I am experiencing significant "crashes" 
> since 5.1.13.  Even using an empty_5.1.13 shell, navigating around and 
> editing a tiddler or two and IE 11 will go "internet explorer has stopped 
> responding" and all changes lost.  I can use Chrome and prefer it, but the 
> save mechanism in IE is much better with the (whatever the name is IE saver 
> thing from tiddlywiki site), I lose data it seems in Chrome as the save 
> directory takes a notion to wander to downloads, or desktop, or last place 
> I saved a PDF (ornery thing).  Empty shell of 5.1.12 and prior works fine, 
> pre-release (just testing) 5.1.14 works just fine, but there's something 
> with 5.1.13 that definitely different in a bad sort of way.
>
> My best guess is the WYSIWYG editor since 99% of the time it dies when 
> editing a tiddler and extremely seldom when just navigating about.  The 
> savior was TiddlyDesktop, hadn't used it previously but had to find 
> something to work around the issue.  5.1.13 has never, ever, crashed in it. 
>  I prefer the standalone browser version though, less steps to fire up 
> quickly, make a few notes and entries, save and shut back down.  
>
> Config: Dropbox [c users  dropbox tiddly] as repository, updates and 
> edits (not simultaneously of course) from multiple computers (couple home 
> machines, shop machine, office machines, test dev machine),  It started on 
> ALL machines similarly after updating to 5.1.13.  I should have rolled back 
> to 5.1.12 right after update, but loving the editor I kept updating and 
> adding and boxed myself in.  Maybe can "downgrade" to 5.1.12 but never done 
> that so kept forging ahead.  machines: Win 7 x64 pro and enterprise mainly, 
> and one Win 10 pro [I don't trust Win 10 and it's telemetry data gathering 
> propensity, hate to use it but have to for one business case - nuff said].
>
> Just sharing my two cents, I check the releases weekly anxiously awaiting 
> 5.1.14 so can get back to my normal use pattern.  Amazing thing Tiddly wiki 
> so I hate to post a negative experience.
>
>

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Re: [tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Tobias Beer]

Hi Brian,

Do you experience the same issues in Chrome or Firefox?

No matter what version of TiddlyWiki, Internet Explorer has never been a 
well supported browser.

Personally, I'm very much for not even trying.

Best wishes,

Tobias.

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Re: [tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Brian McMullan]

First post, sorry for the intrusion in existing thread.  Using TW for about 
four years, love it, moreover DEPEND on it.  Jeremy you are a mad genius is 
all I can say.  But, I am experiencing significant "crashes" since 5.1.13. 
 Even using an empty_5.1.13 shell, navigating around and editing a tiddler 
or two and IE 11 will go "internet explorer has stopped responding" and all 
changes lost.  I can use Chrome and prefer it, but the save mechanism in IE 
is much better with the (whatever the name is IE saver thing from 
tiddlywiki site), I lose data it seems in Chrome as the save directory 
takes a notion to wander to downloads, or desktop, or last place I saved a 
PDF (ornery thing).  Empty shell of 5.1.12 and prior works fine, 
pre-release (just testing) 5.1.14 works just fine, but there's something 
with 5.1.13 that definitely different in a bad sort of way.

My best guess is the WYSIWYG editor since 99% of the time it dies when 
editing a tiddler and extremely seldom when just navigating about.  The 
savior was TiddlyDesktop, hadn't used it previously but had to find 
something to work around the issue.  5.1.13 has never, ever, crashed in it. 
 I prefer the standalone browser version though, less steps to fire up 
quickly, make a few notes and entries, save and shut back down.  

Config: Dropbox [c users  dropbox tiddly] as repository, updates and 
edits (not simultaneously of course) from multiple computers (couple home 
machines, shop machine, office machines, test dev machine),  It started on 
ALL machines similarly after updating to 5.1.13.  I should have rolled back 
to 5.1.12 right after update, but loving the editor I kept updating and 
adding and boxed myself in.  Maybe can "downgrade" to 5.1.12 but never done 
that so kept forging ahead.  machines: Win 7 x64 pro and enterprise mainly, 
and one Win 10 pro [I don't trust Win 10 and it's telemetry data gathering 
propensity, hate to use it but have to for one business case - nuff said].

Just sharing my two cents, I check the releases weekly anxiously awaiting 
5.1.14 so can get back to my normal use pattern.  Amazing thing Tiddly wiki 
so I hate to post a negative experience.

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Re: [tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Arlen Beiler]

Also any logs from the server NodeJS would be helpful. Would more than one
person be editing at the same time?

On Jan 17, 2017 09:27, "Russell Cosway"  wrote:

> I have started to suffer this now.  I am on a MacMini running MacOS Sierra
> 10.12.2.  I use Firefox 50.1.0 and autosave is enabled; I only used Firefox
> for TW work.  TW version is 5.1.13 and is on a node.js hosted on AWS - I
> didn't set that up but could get the server setup details is needed.
>
> I have had no browser crashes and I can see no recreatable pattern of
> circumstances.  I have literally watched the text of the tiddler disappear
> in front of my eyes.  Due to the inter-relationships i'm working on i may
> have 10 tiddlers open at once, maybe 2-5 of those in draft.  However, the
> loss occurs when I have saved and the TW tick has gone from red to grey -
> soon after saving a tiddler, either that tiddler or another I have open
> clears.  There are no "drafts" of the lost tiddler left.  The tags and last
> saved information remains intact, just the text is cleared.  The json
> export shows it as "".
>
> I too have now lost hours of work and considering my options to produce my
> wiki, so any insights and improvements would welcomed.
> R
>
> On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 12:00:25 AM UTC, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>
>> It may be a bug, and we may need to look into it.
>>
>> See my link in the last post, or quoted below, showing how to use NodeJS
>> data folders with Electron so it saves correctly.
>>
>> Please do take all reasonable precautions in using this as well, and I
>> can't warrent that it is perfect, but it's for your reference.
>>
>> Enjoy :)
>> -Arlen
>>
>> On Dec 24, 2016 20:47, "Dmitry Sokolov"  wrote:
>>
>> I see dropping modified tiddler as a bug.
>>
>> I am intensively working with PBWorks at the moment (while preparing
>> transfer to TW in future).
>> PBWorks gives you all indicators of the processes taking place. I know,
>> for example, that saving finished when a URL with no "edit" appeared. Then,
>> it's safe to close the window.
>> Another protection measures they have is a warning dialogue on closing
>> page being edited, before the save button pressed.
>>
>> I think, we have to learn best practices from other platforms, collect
>> them within just one platform, and implement as soon as practical.
>> Sorry for being persistent with the simple idea:
>> our team performance depends on how quick particular topics are
>> found/discovered for reuse.
>> Please let me know if this mechanism is already realised, and that's just
>> me who can't see it.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Dmitry
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, 24 December 2016 10:17:50 UTC+13, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>
>>> I just had an idea. The way the NodeJS server currently works is
>>> asynchronous. It syncs with the server and then returns to the browser.
>>> Then the server syncs to the file system and returns. If there would have
>>> been a time where you closed your draft, waited for the check mark to turn
>>> grey, and then immediately exited, it is possible that the server could
>>> have missed writing the files. Try to see if you can replicate it like
>>> this. If so, that may be the problem.
>>>
>>> The way I dealt with that was to hack tiddlywiki (forget how, but I
>>> think involved some of the first code in boot.js or bootprefix.js) so that
>>> it would save directly to the file system from the browser.
>>>
>>> Here's a gist that I posted https://gist.github.com
>>> /Arlen22/45f1a460c9e348fa50ad
>>>
>>> For electron you would set the data directory in index.html, then open
>>> index.html in a new BrowserWindow. And your done. The file syncer actually
>>> takes care of saving changes, so it should stay red until the file actually
>>> gets saved.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 9:51 AM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
>>> tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
 Not necessarily a bug in TW per se. No one ever promised (that I know
 of) that it would work on Electron. Definitely no one promised that it
 would work with a custom version of Electron and if it's on a custom branch
 of TW5 that depends on sensing its platform  --- all bets are off.

 Just depending on small desktop web/file  servers (like node.js) has
 always been risky in my experience. The hardware and the software may not
 be robust enough in all situations. Usually, there are time lags. Your
 machine may prioritize your email or web browsing over the web server.  If
 you shut down your machine or server before a save has completed (which
 might happen if you have a 3 or 5 page tiddler) then the chances are even
 greater. The trick in that situation would be to either save your own copy
 of current work locally or to break the work into smaller chunks. The
 editing tools in TW5 make working with smaller chunks easier than before.

  If you check the forum, you will see that reports of actual data loss

Re: [tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Arlen Beiler]

It sounds like server details would be good. This sounds like it could be
related to the sync mechanism somehow, but we would need to know how the
server is setup.

On Jan 17, 2017 09:27, "Russell Cosway"  wrote:

> I have started to suffer this now.  I am on a MacMini running MacOS Sierra
> 10.12.2.  I use Firefox 50.1.0 and autosave is enabled; I only used Firefox
> for TW work.  TW version is 5.1.13 and is on a node.js hosted on AWS - I
> didn't set that up but could get the server setup details is needed.
>
> I have had no browser crashes and I can see no recreatable pattern of
> circumstances.  I have literally watched the text of the tiddler disappear
> in front of my eyes.  Due to the inter-relationships i'm working on i may
> have 10 tiddlers open at once, maybe 2-5 of those in draft.  However, the
> loss occurs when I have saved and the TW tick has gone from red to grey -
> soon after saving a tiddler, either that tiddler or another I have open
> clears.  There are no "drafts" of the lost tiddler left.  The tags and last
> saved information remains intact, just the text is cleared.  The json
> export shows it as "".
>
> I too have now lost hours of work and considering my options to produce my
> wiki, so any insights and improvements would welcomed.
> R
>
> On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 12:00:25 AM UTC, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>
>> It may be a bug, and we may need to look into it.
>>
>> See my link in the last post, or quoted below, showing how to use NodeJS
>> data folders with Electron so it saves correctly.
>>
>> Please do take all reasonable precautions in using this as well, and I
>> can't warrent that it is perfect, but it's for your reference.
>>
>> Enjoy :)
>> -Arlen
>>
>> On Dec 24, 2016 20:47, "Dmitry Sokolov"  wrote:
>>
>> I see dropping modified tiddler as a bug.
>>
>> I am intensively working with PBWorks at the moment (while preparing
>> transfer to TW in future).
>> PBWorks gives you all indicators of the processes taking place. I know,
>> for example, that saving finished when a URL with no "edit" appeared. Then,
>> it's safe to close the window.
>> Another protection measures they have is a warning dialogue on closing
>> page being edited, before the save button pressed.
>>
>> I think, we have to learn best practices from other platforms, collect
>> them within just one platform, and implement as soon as practical.
>> Sorry for being persistent with the simple idea:
>> our team performance depends on how quick particular topics are
>> found/discovered for reuse.
>> Please let me know if this mechanism is already realised, and that's just
>> me who can't see it.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Dmitry
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, 24 December 2016 10:17:50 UTC+13, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>
>>> I just had an idea. The way the NodeJS server currently works is
>>> asynchronous. It syncs with the server and then returns to the browser.
>>> Then the server syncs to the file system and returns. If there would have
>>> been a time where you closed your draft, waited for the check mark to turn
>>> grey, and then immediately exited, it is possible that the server could
>>> have missed writing the files. Try to see if you can replicate it like
>>> this. If so, that may be the problem.
>>>
>>> The way I dealt with that was to hack tiddlywiki (forget how, but I
>>> think involved some of the first code in boot.js or bootprefix.js) so that
>>> it would save directly to the file system from the browser.
>>>
>>> Here's a gist that I posted https://gist.github.com
>>> /Arlen22/45f1a460c9e348fa50ad
>>>
>>> For electron you would set the data directory in index.html, then open
>>> index.html in a new BrowserWindow. And your done. The file syncer actually
>>> takes care of saving changes, so it should stay red until the file actually
>>> gets saved.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 9:51 AM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
>>> tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
 Not necessarily a bug in TW per se. No one ever promised (that I know
 of) that it would work on Electron. Definitely no one promised that it
 would work with a custom version of Electron and if it's on a custom branch
 of TW5 that depends on sensing its platform  --- all bets are off.

 Just depending on small desktop web/file  servers (like node.js) has
 always been risky in my experience. The hardware and the software may not
 be robust enough in all situations. Usually, there are time lags. Your
 machine may prioritize your email or web browsing over the web server.  If
 you shut down your machine or server before a save has completed (which
 might happen if you have a 3 or 5 page tiddler) then the chances are even
 greater. The trick in that situation would be to either save your own copy
 of current work locally or to break the work into smaller chunks. The
 editing tools in TW5 make working with smaller chunks easier than before.

  If you check the 

Re: [tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Russell Cosway]

I have started to suffer this now.  I am on a MacMini running MacOS Sierra 
10.12.2.  I use Firefox 50.1.0 and autosave is enabled; I only used Firefox 
for TW work.  TW version is 5.1.13 and is on a node.js hosted on AWS - I 
didn't set that up but could get the server setup details is needed.

I have had no browser crashes and I can see no recreatable pattern of 
circumstances.  I have literally watched the text of the tiddler disappear 
in front of my eyes.  Due to the inter-relationships i'm working on i may 
have 10 tiddlers open at once, maybe 2-5 of those in draft.  However, the 
loss occurs when I have saved and the TW tick has gone from red to grey - 
soon after saving a tiddler, either that tiddler or another I have open 
clears.  There are no "drafts" of the lost tiddler left.  The tags and last 
saved information remains intact, just the text is cleared.  The json 
export shows it as "".

I too have now lost hours of work and considering my options to produce my 
wiki, so any insights and improvements would welcomed.
R

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 12:00:25 AM UTC, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> It may be a bug, and we may need to look into it.
>
> See my link in the last post, or quoted below, showing how to use NodeJS 
> data folders with Electron so it saves correctly. 
>
> Please do take all reasonable precautions in using this as well, and I 
> can't warrent that it is perfect, but it's for your reference.
>
> Enjoy :)
> -Arlen
>
> On Dec 24, 2016 20:47, "Dmitry Sokolov"  > wrote:
>
> I see dropping modified tiddler as a bug.
>
> I am intensively working with PBWorks at the moment (while preparing 
> transfer to TW in future).
> PBWorks gives you all indicators of the processes taking place. I know, 
> for example, that saving finished when a URL with no "edit" appeared. Then, 
> it's safe to close the window.
> Another protection measures they have is a warning dialogue on closing 
> page being edited, before the save button pressed.
>
> I think, we have to learn best practices from other platforms, collect 
> them within just one platform, and implement as soon as practical.
> Sorry for being persistent with the simple idea:
> our team performance depends on how quick particular topics are 
> found/discovered for reuse.
> Please let me know if this mechanism is already realised, and that's just 
> me who can't see it.
>
> Thank you,
> Dmitry
>
>
> On Saturday, 24 December 2016 10:17:50 UTC+13, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
>> I just had an idea. The way the NodeJS server currently works is 
>> asynchronous. It syncs with the server and then returns to the browser. 
>> Then the server syncs to the file system and returns. If there would have 
>> been a time where you closed your draft, waited for the check mark to turn 
>> grey, and then immediately exited, it is possible that the server could 
>> have missed writing the files. Try to see if you can replicate it like 
>> this. If so, that may be the problem. 
>>
>> The way I dealt with that was to hack tiddlywiki (forget how, but I think 
>> involved some of the first code in boot.js or bootprefix.js) so that it 
>> would save directly to the file system from the browser. 
>>
>> Here's a gist that I posted 
>> https://gist.github.com/Arlen22/45f1a460c9e348fa50ad
>>
>> For electron you would set the data directory in index.html, then open 
>> index.html in a new BrowserWindow. And your done. The file syncer actually 
>> takes care of saving changes, so it should stay red until the file actually 
>> gets saved.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 9:51 AM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
>> tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Not necessarily a bug in TW per se. No one ever promised (that I know 
>>> of) that it would work on Electron. Definitely no one promised that it 
>>> would work with a custom version of Electron and if it's on a custom branch 
>>> of TW5 that depends on sensing its platform  --- all bets are off.
>>>
>>> Just depending on small desktop web/file  servers (like node.js) has 
>>> always been risky in my experience. The hardware and the software may not 
>>> be robust enough in all situations. Usually, there are time lags. Your 
>>> machine may prioritize your email or web browsing over the web server.  If 
>>> you shut down your machine or server before a save has completed (which 
>>> might happen if you have a 3 or 5 page tiddler) then the chances are even 
>>> greater. The trick in that situation would be to either save your own copy 
>>> of current work locally or to break the work into smaller chunks. The 
>>> editing tools in TW5 make working with smaller chunks easier than before.
>>>
>>>  If you check the forum, you will see that reports of actual data loss 
>>> are fairly rare. The file-based TW seems to save itself reliably.  To be an 
>>> actual bug you would need to see a repeatable set of standard circumstances 
>>> under which TW fails to save.
>>>
>>> Have fun,
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, 

Re: [tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Arlen Beiler]

Ok, I added the electron.js file that I pass to electron as the first
argument.

https://gist.github.com/Arlen22/45f1a460c9e348fa50ad



On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 7:00 PM, Arlen Beiler  wrote:

> It may be a bug, and we may need to look into it.
>
> See my link in the last post, or quoted below, showing how to use NodeJS
> data folders with Electron so it saves correctly.
>
> Please do take all reasonable precautions in using this as well, and I
> can't warrent that it is perfect, but it's for your reference.
>
> Enjoy :)
> -Arlen
>
>
> On Dec 24, 2016 20:47, "Dmitry Sokolov" 
> wrote:
>
> I see dropping modified tiddler as a bug.
>
> I am intensively working with PBWorks at the moment (while preparing
> transfer to TW in future).
> PBWorks gives you all indicators of the processes taking place. I know,
> for example, that saving finished when a URL with no "edit" appeared. Then,
> it's safe to close the window.
> Another protection measures they have is a warning dialogue on closing
> page being edited, before the save button pressed.
>
> I think, we have to learn best practices from other platforms, collect
> them within just one platform, and implement as soon as practical.
> Sorry for being persistent with the simple idea:
> our team performance depends on how quick particular topics are
> found/discovered for reuse.
> Please let me know if this mechanism is already realised, and that's just
> me who can't see it.
>
> Thank you,
> Dmitry
>
>
> On Saturday, 24 December 2016 10:17:50 UTC+13, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
>> I just had an idea. The way the NodeJS server currently works is
>> asynchronous. It syncs with the server and then returns to the browser.
>> Then the server syncs to the file system and returns. If there would have
>> been a time where you closed your draft, waited for the check mark to turn
>> grey, and then immediately exited, it is possible that the server could
>> have missed writing the files. Try to see if you can replicate it like
>> this. If so, that may be the problem.
>>
>> The way I dealt with that was to hack tiddlywiki (forget how, but I think
>> involved some of the first code in boot.js or bootprefix.js) so that it
>> would save directly to the file system from the browser.
>>
>> Here's a gist that I posted https://gist.github.com
>> /Arlen22/45f1a460c9e348fa50ad
>>
>> For electron you would set the data directory in index.html, then open
>> index.html in a new BrowserWindow. And your done. The file syncer actually
>> takes care of saving changes, so it should stay red until the file actually
>> gets saved.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 9:51 AM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
>> tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Not necessarily a bug in TW per se. No one ever promised (that I know
>>> of) that it would work on Electron. Definitely no one promised that it
>>> would work with a custom version of Electron and if it's on a custom branch
>>> of TW5 that depends on sensing its platform  --- all bets are off.
>>>
>>> Just depending on small desktop web/file  servers (like node.js) has
>>> always been risky in my experience. The hardware and the software may not
>>> be robust enough in all situations. Usually, there are time lags. Your
>>> machine may prioritize your email or web browsing over the web server.  If
>>> you shut down your machine or server before a save has completed (which
>>> might happen if you have a 3 or 5 page tiddler) then the chances are even
>>> greater. The trick in that situation would be to either save your own copy
>>> of current work locally or to break the work into smaller chunks. The
>>> editing tools in TW5 make working with smaller chunks easier than before.
>>>
>>>  If you check the forum, you will see that reports of actual data loss
>>> are fairly rare. The file-based TW seems to save itself reliably.  To be an
>>> actual bug you would need to see a repeatable set of standard circumstances
>>> under which TW fails to save.
>>>
>>> Have fun,
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 4:30:15 AM UTC-8, Arlen Beiler wrote:

 Nevertheless, this is a bug. TiddlyWiki should never lose changes no
 matter how big the Tiddler is. Thanks for the info, though. I hope we can
 find any problems that are causing it.

 I have frankly never just used the draft idea before, I always save the
 Tiddler when I am done writing. And I would recommend doing that normally.
 However, it seems you are supposed to be able to save a draft and come back
 to it later.

 On Dec 12, 2016 14:24, "Bruno Loff"  wrote:

> Yes it was.
>
> On Monday, 12 December 2016 19:46:54 UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:
>>
>> But, was all that work -- 3 to 5 pages -- in a single tiddler?
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-8, Bruno Loff wrote:
>>>
>>> Tiddlywiki was running on electron v1.4 on Arch Linux; the 

Re: [tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Arlen Beiler]

It may be a bug, and we may need to look into it.

See my link in the last post, or quoted below, showing how to use NodeJS
data folders with Electron so it saves correctly.

Please do take all reasonable precautions in using this as well, and I
can't warrent that it is perfect, but it's for your reference.

Enjoy :)
-Arlen

On Dec 24, 2016 20:47, "Dmitry Sokolov"  wrote:

I see dropping modified tiddler as a bug.

I am intensively working with PBWorks at the moment (while preparing
transfer to TW in future).
PBWorks gives you all indicators of the processes taking place. I know, for
example, that saving finished when a URL with no "edit" appeared. Then,
it's safe to close the window.
Another protection measures they have is a warning dialogue on closing page
being edited, before the save button pressed.

I think, we have to learn best practices from other platforms, collect them
within just one platform, and implement as soon as practical.
Sorry for being persistent with the simple idea:
our team performance depends on how quick particular topics are
found/discovered for reuse.
Please let me know if this mechanism is already realised, and that's just
me who can't see it.

Thank you,
Dmitry


On Saturday, 24 December 2016 10:17:50 UTC+13, Arlen Beiler wrote:

> I just had an idea. The way the NodeJS server currently works is
> asynchronous. It syncs with the server and then returns to the browser.
> Then the server syncs to the file system and returns. If there would have
> been a time where you closed your draft, waited for the check mark to turn
> grey, and then immediately exited, it is possible that the server could
> have missed writing the files. Try to see if you can replicate it like
> this. If so, that may be the problem.
>
> The way I dealt with that was to hack tiddlywiki (forget how, but I think
> involved some of the first code in boot.js or bootprefix.js) so that it
> would save directly to the file system from the browser.
>
> Here's a gist that I posted https://gist.github.com
> /Arlen22/45f1a460c9e348fa50ad
>
> For electron you would set the data directory in index.html, then open
> index.html in a new BrowserWindow. And your done. The file syncer actually
> takes care of saving changes, so it should stay red until the file actually
> gets saved.
>
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 9:51 AM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
> tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> Not necessarily a bug in TW per se. No one ever promised (that I know of)
>> that it would work on Electron. Definitely no one promised that it would
>> work with a custom version of Electron and if it's on a custom branch of
>> TW5 that depends on sensing its platform  --- all bets are off.
>>
>> Just depending on small desktop web/file  servers (like node.js) has
>> always been risky in my experience. The hardware and the software may not
>> be robust enough in all situations. Usually, there are time lags. Your
>> machine may prioritize your email or web browsing over the web server.  If
>> you shut down your machine or server before a save has completed (which
>> might happen if you have a 3 or 5 page tiddler) then the chances are even
>> greater. The trick in that situation would be to either save your own copy
>> of current work locally or to break the work into smaller chunks. The
>> editing tools in TW5 make working with smaller chunks easier than before.
>>
>>  If you check the forum, you will see that reports of actual data loss
>> are fairly rare. The file-based TW seems to save itself reliably.  To be an
>> actual bug you would need to see a repeatable set of standard circumstances
>> under which TW fails to save.
>>
>> Have fun,
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 4:30:15 AM UTC-8, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>>
>>> Nevertheless, this is a bug. TiddlyWiki should never lose changes no
>>> matter how big the Tiddler is. Thanks for the info, though. I hope we can
>>> find any problems that are causing it.
>>>
>>> I have frankly never just used the draft idea before, I always save the
>>> Tiddler when I am done writing. And I would recommend doing that normally.
>>> However, it seems you are supposed to be able to save a draft and come back
>>> to it later.
>>>
>>> On Dec 12, 2016 14:24, "Bruno Loff"  wrote:
>>>
 Yes it was.

 On Monday, 12 December 2016 19:46:54 UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:
>
> But, was all that work -- 3 to 5 pages -- in a single tiddler?
>
> Mark
>
> On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-8, Bruno Loff wrote:
>>
>> Tiddlywiki was running on electron v1.4 on Arch Linux; the server
>> side was running on electron's server (a node.js process), and the 
>> webpage
>> was running on electron's chromium process. So all of it was localhost.
>>
>> I was working on a slightly modified fork (
>> https://github.com/bloff/TiddlyWiki5), that included a minimal
>> change to detect when TW was running 

Re: [tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Dmitry Sokolov]

I see dropping modified tiddler as a bug.

I am intensively working with PBWorks at the moment (while preparing 
transfer to TW in future).
PBWorks gives you all indicators of the processes taking place. I know, for 
example, that saving finished when a URL with no "edit" appeared. Then, 
it's safe to close the window.
Another protection measures they have is a warning dialogue on closing page 
being edited, before the save button pressed.

I think, we have to learn best practices from other platforms, collect them 
within just one platform, and implement as soon as practical.
Sorry for being persistent with the simple idea:
our team performance depends on how quick particular topics are 
found/discovered for reuse.
Please let me know if this mechanism is already realised, and that's just 
me who can't see it.

Thank you,
Dmitry

On Saturday, 24 December 2016 10:17:50 UTC+13, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> I just had an idea. The way the NodeJS server currently works is 
> asynchronous. It syncs with the server and then returns to the browser. 
> Then the server syncs to the file system and returns. If there would have 
> been a time where you closed your draft, waited for the check mark to turn 
> grey, and then immediately exited, it is possible that the server could 
> have missed writing the files. Try to see if you can replicate it like 
> this. If so, that may be the problem. 
>
> The way I dealt with that was to hack tiddlywiki (forget how, but I think 
> involved some of the first code in boot.js or bootprefix.js) so that it 
> would save directly to the file system from the browser. 
>
> Here's a gist that I posted 
> https://gist.github.com/Arlen22/45f1a460c9e348fa50ad
>
> For electron you would set the data directory in index.html, then open 
> index.html in a new BrowserWindow. And your done. The file syncer actually 
> takes care of saving changes, so it should stay red until the file actually 
> gets saved.
>
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 9:51 AM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
> tiddl...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> Not necessarily a bug in TW per se. No one ever promised (that I know of) 
>> that it would work on Electron. Definitely no one promised that it would 
>> work with a custom version of Electron and if it's on a custom branch of 
>> TW5 that depends on sensing its platform  --- all bets are off.
>>
>> Just depending on small desktop web/file  servers (like node.js) has 
>> always been risky in my experience. The hardware and the software may not 
>> be robust enough in all situations. Usually, there are time lags. Your 
>> machine may prioritize your email or web browsing over the web server.  If 
>> you shut down your machine or server before a save has completed (which 
>> might happen if you have a 3 or 5 page tiddler) then the chances are even 
>> greater. The trick in that situation would be to either save your own copy 
>> of current work locally or to break the work into smaller chunks. The 
>> editing tools in TW5 make working with smaller chunks easier than before.
>>
>>  If you check the forum, you will see that reports of actual data loss 
>> are fairly rare. The file-based TW seems to save itself reliably.  To be an 
>> actual bug you would need to see a repeatable set of standard circumstances 
>> under which TW fails to save.
>>
>> Have fun,
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 4:30:15 AM UTC-8, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>>
>>> Nevertheless, this is a bug. TiddlyWiki should never lose changes no 
>>> matter how big the Tiddler is. Thanks for the info, though. I hope we can 
>>> find any problems that are causing it. 
>>>
>>> I have frankly never just used the draft idea before, I always save the 
>>> Tiddler when I am done writing. And I would recommend doing that normally. 
>>> However, it seems you are supposed to be able to save a draft and come back 
>>> to it later.
>>>
>>> On Dec 12, 2016 14:24, "Bruno Loff"  wrote:
>>>
 Yes it was.

 On Monday, 12 December 2016 19:46:54 UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:
>
> But, was all that work -- 3 to 5 pages -- in a single tiddler?
>
> Mark
>
> On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-8, Bruno Loff wrote:
>>
>> Tiddlywiki was running on electron v1.4 on Arch Linux; the server 
>> side was running on electron's server (a node.js process), and the 
>> webpage 
>> was running on electron's chromium process. So all of it was localhost.
>>
>> I was working on a slightly modified fork (
>> https://github.com/bloff/TiddlyWiki5), that included a minimal 
>> change to detect when TW was running under electron.
>>
>> It also included various plugins that I wrote/modified to serve my 
>> purposes (customized katex plugin, a plugin for managing bibtex 
>> citations, 
>> and a plugin to interface with electron), which is roughly keeping track 
>> of 
>> my mathematical writeups, lecture-notes, etc. but I don't think these 

Re: [tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Arlen Beiler]

I just had an idea. The way the NodeJS server currently works is
asynchronous. It syncs with the server and then returns to the browser.
Then the server syncs to the file system and returns. If there would have
been a time where you closed your draft, waited for the check mark to turn
grey, and then immediately exited, it is possible that the server could
have missed writing the files. Try to see if you can replicate it like
this. If so, that may be the problem.

The way I dealt with that was to hack tiddlywiki (forget how, but I think
involved some of the first code in boot.js or bootprefix.js) so that it
would save directly to the file system from the browser.

Here's a gist that I posted
https://gist.github.com/Arlen22/45f1a460c9e348fa50ad

For electron you would set the data directory in index.html, then open
index.html in a new BrowserWindow. And your done. The file syncer actually
takes care of saving changes, so it should stay red until the file actually
gets saved.

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 9:51 AM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Not necessarily a bug in TW per se. No one ever promised (that I know of)
> that it would work on Electron. Definitely no one promised that it would
> work with a custom version of Electron and if it's on a custom branch of
> TW5 that depends on sensing its platform  --- all bets are off.
>
> Just depending on small desktop web/file  servers (like node.js) has
> always been risky in my experience. The hardware and the software may not
> be robust enough in all situations. Usually, there are time lags. Your
> machine may prioritize your email or web browsing over the web server.  If
> you shut down your machine or server before a save has completed (which
> might happen if you have a 3 or 5 page tiddler) then the chances are even
> greater. The trick in that situation would be to either save your own copy
> of current work locally or to break the work into smaller chunks. The
> editing tools in TW5 make working with smaller chunks easier than before.
>
>  If you check the forum, you will see that reports of actual data loss are
> fairly rare. The file-based TW seems to save itself reliably.  To be an
> actual bug you would need to see a repeatable set of standard circumstances
> under which TW fails to save.
>
> Have fun,
> Mark
>
>
> On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 4:30:15 AM UTC-8, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>
>> Nevertheless, this is a bug. TiddlyWiki should never lose changes no
>> matter how big the Tiddler is. Thanks for the info, though. I hope we can
>> find any problems that are causing it.
>>
>> I have frankly never just used the draft idea before, I always save the
>> Tiddler when I am done writing. And I would recommend doing that normally.
>> However, it seems you are supposed to be able to save a draft and come back
>> to it later.
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2016 14:24, "Bruno Loff"  wrote:
>>
>>> Yes it was.
>>>
>>> On Monday, 12 December 2016 19:46:54 UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:

 But, was all that work -- 3 to 5 pages -- in a single tiddler?

 Mark

 On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-8, Bruno Loff wrote:
>
> Tiddlywiki was running on electron v1.4 on Arch Linux; the server side
> was running on electron's server (a node.js process), and the webpage was
> running on electron's chromium process. So all of it was localhost.
>
> I was working on a slightly modified fork (
> https://github.com/bloff/TiddlyWiki5), that included a minimal change
> to detect when TW was running under electron.
>
> It also included various plugins that I wrote/modified to serve my
> purposes (customized katex plugin, a plugin for managing bibtex citations,
> and a plugin to interface with electron), which is roughly keeping track 
> of
> my mathematical writeups, lecture-notes, etc. but I don't think these were
> to blame.
>
> 14 of work amounted to roughly 3-5 pages. That's not much.
>
> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ms
>>> gid/tiddlywiki/52d252e2-dcc0-4fdb-875a-008e02bcb3b9%40googlegroups.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To 

Re: [tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Not necessarily a bug in TW per se. No one ever promised (that I know of) 
that it would work on Electron. Definitely no one promised that it would 
work with a custom version of Electron and if it's on a custom branch of 
TW5 that depends on sensing its platform  --- all bets are off.

Just depending on small desktop web/file  servers (like node.js) has always 
been risky in my experience. The hardware and the software may not be 
robust enough in all situations. Usually, there are time lags. Your machine 
may prioritize your email or web browsing over the web server.  If you shut 
down your machine or server before a save has completed (which might happen 
if you have a 3 or 5 page tiddler) then the chances are even greater. The 
trick in that situation would be to either save your own copy of current 
work locally or to break the work into smaller chunks. The editing tools in 
TW5 make working with smaller chunks easier than before.

 If you check the forum, you will see that reports of actual data loss are 
fairly rare. The file-based TW seems to save itself reliably.  To be an 
actual bug you would need to see a repeatable set of standard circumstances 
under which TW fails to save.

Have fun,
Mark


On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 4:30:15 AM UTC-8, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> Nevertheless, this is a bug. TiddlyWiki should never lose changes no 
> matter how big the Tiddler is. Thanks for the info, though. I hope we can 
> find any problems that are causing it. 
>
> I have frankly never just used the draft idea before, I always save the 
> Tiddler when I am done writing. And I would recommend doing that normally. 
> However, it seems you are supposed to be able to save a draft and come back 
> to it later.
>
> On Dec 12, 2016 14:24, "Bruno Loff"  
> wrote:
>
>> Yes it was.
>>
>> On Monday, 12 December 2016 19:46:54 UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:
>>>
>>> But, was all that work -- 3 to 5 pages -- in a single tiddler?
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-8, Bruno Loff wrote:

 Tiddlywiki was running on electron v1.4 on Arch Linux; the server side 
 was running on electron's server (a node.js process), and the webpage was 
 running on electron's chromium process. So all of it was localhost.

 I was working on a slightly modified fork (
 https://github.com/bloff/TiddlyWiki5), that included a minimal change 
 to detect when TW was running under electron.

 It also included various plugins that I wrote/modified to serve my 
 purposes (customized katex plugin, a plugin for managing bibtex citations, 
 and a plugin to interface with electron), which is roughly keeping track 
 of 
 my mathematical writeups, lecture-notes, etc. but I don't think these were 
 to blame.

 14 of work amounted to roughly 3-5 pages. That's not much.

 -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "TiddlyWiki" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/52d252e2-dcc0-4fdb-875a-008e02bcb3b9%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>

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Re: [tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Arlen Beiler]

Nevertheless, this is a bug. TiddlyWiki should never lose changes no matter
how big the Tiddler is. Thanks for the info, though. I hope we can find any
problems that are causing it.

I have frankly never just used the draft idea before, I always save the
Tiddler when I am done writing. And I would recommend doing that normally.
However, it seems you are supposed to be able to save a draft and come back
to it later.

On Dec 12, 2016 14:24, "Bruno Loff"  wrote:

> Yes it was.
>
> On Monday, 12 December 2016 19:46:54 UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:
>>
>> But, was all that work -- 3 to 5 pages -- in a single tiddler?
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-8, Bruno Loff wrote:
>>>
>>> Tiddlywiki was running on electron v1.4 on Arch Linux; the server side
>>> was running on electron's server (a node.js process), and the webpage was
>>> running on electron's chromium process. So all of it was localhost.
>>>
>>> I was working on a slightly modified fork (https://github.com/bloff/Tidd
>>> lyWiki5), that included a minimal change to detect when TW was running
>>> under electron.
>>>
>>> It also included various plugins that I wrote/modified to serve my
>>> purposes (customized katex plugin, a plugin for managing bibtex citations,
>>> and a plugin to interface with electron), which is roughly keeping track of
>>> my mathematical writeups, lecture-notes, etc. but I don't think these were
>>> to blame.
>>>
>>> 14 of work amounted to roughly 3-5 pages. That's not much.
>>>
>>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
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> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/
> msgid/tiddlywiki/52d252e2-dcc0-4fdb-875a-008e02bcb3b9%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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[tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Bruno Loff]

Yes it was.

On Monday, 12 December 2016 19:46:54 UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:
>
> But, was all that work -- 3 to 5 pages -- in a single tiddler?
>
> Mark
>
> On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-8, Bruno Loff wrote:
>>
>> Tiddlywiki was running on electron v1.4 on Arch Linux; the server side 
>> was running on electron's server (a node.js process), and the webpage was 
>> running on electron's chromium process. So all of it was localhost.
>>
>> I was working on a slightly modified fork (
>> https://github.com/bloff/TiddlyWiki5), that included a minimal change to 
>> detect when TW was running under electron.
>>
>> It also included various plugins that I wrote/modified to serve my 
>> purposes (customized katex plugin, a plugin for managing bibtex citations, 
>> and a plugin to interface with electron), which is roughly keeping track of 
>> my mathematical writeups, lecture-notes, etc. but I don't think these were 
>> to blame.
>>
>> 14 of work amounted to roughly 3-5 pages. That's not much.
>>
>>

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[tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

But, was all that work -- 3 to 5 pages -- in a single tiddler?

Mark

On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-8, Bruno Loff wrote:
>
> Tiddlywiki was running on electron v1.4 on Arch Linux; the server side was 
> running on electron's server (a node.js process), and the webpage was 
> running on electron's chromium process. So all of it was localhost.
>
> I was working on a slightly modified fork (
> https://github.com/bloff/TiddlyWiki5), that included a minimal change to 
> detect when TW was running under electron.
>
> It also included various plugins that I wrote/modified to serve my 
> purposes (customized katex plugin, a plugin for managing bibtex citations, 
> and a plugin to interface with electron), which is roughly keeping track of 
> my mathematical writeups, lecture-notes, etc. but I don't think these were 
> to blame.
>
> 14 of work amounted to roughly 3-5 pages. That's not much.
>
>

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[tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Bruno Loff]

Tiddlywiki was running on electron v1.4 on Arch Linux; the server side was 
running on electron's server (a node.js process), and the webpage was 
running on electron's chromium process. So all of it was localhost.

I was working on a slightly modified fork 
(https://github.com/bloff/TiddlyWiki5), that included a minimal change to 
detect when TW was running under electron.

It also included various plugins that I wrote/modified to serve my purposes 
(customized katex plugin, a plugin for managing bibtex citations, and a 
plugin to interface with electron), which is roughly keeping track of my 
mathematical writeups, lecture-notes, etc. but I don't think these were to 
blame.

14 of work amounted to roughly 3-5 pages. That's not much.

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[tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

You still haven't told us anything about your set-up. What browser are you 
using? What operating system? Is node.js running on the same machine or a 
different machine than the machine where you are working?

You say that you've lost 14 hours worth of work. But from your description, 
it sounds like only the current draft tiddler was lost. That would suggest 
that you're putting massive amounts of writing into a single tiddler.  We 
have been told that using a single tiddler for a large document is not "the 
tiddlywiki way." I would worry that a large tiddler might get dropped by 
the node.js server, which I don't think was really ever meant for intensive 
server loading.

Mark

On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 2:56:34 AM UTC-8, Bruno Loff wrote:
>
> Sorry for the angry vent, that was uncalled for. I was really upset.
>
> The bug, wherever it lies, is hard to reproduce.
>
> I am running a node.js instance, and accessing it via the browser 
> (actually via a custom-made electron app which I had eventually planned to 
> release publicly).
>
> When I usually write a draft and close the app, the draft will still be 
> there when I return, provided that I wait enough for the "save" button to 
> turn from red to gray. So I became used to this feature. It seemed very 
> clever since TW will autosave very often while in the middle of editing, so 
> I had a false sense of security: "even if the latest edit I've made is 
> lost, that's at most one or two sentences, so no big deal".
>
> But at some point, maybe the application was closed in some abnormal way, 
> maybe it was killed, maybe it was closed before the red "save" button 
> turned back to gray, something like that, I couldn't reproduce the problem, 
> so I'm not sure when it occurs. Upon opening the wiki again, the draft 
> tiddler still exists, but it is no longer in "editing" mode when I return, 
> and, worst of all, its contents are completely empty. So I didn't just lose 
> the last few sentences I had written since the last successful autosave, I 
> lost all the changes that I had made since last clicking the "confirm 
> changes to this tiddler" button. When searching through the .tid files in 
> the wikifolder, indeed the "Draft of ... .tid" file was there, but it was 
> also empty.
>
> The behavior I expected was that, even if the changes I last made were not 
> properly saved, the draft should be at whichever state it was since the 
> last autosave happened. So for example, when the Sync machinery is working 
> to auto-save the contents of a draft, it should ensure that the operations 
> are "atomic", in some way, i.e., that the promise holds that it should 
> either overwrite the draft with the new edits, or preserve the draft's 
> contents since the last time it autosaved. *Never* should it happen that 
> the entire draft just disappears.
>
> The feeling of insecurity I get from having this basic assumption broken 
> makes me very uncomfortable in using TW for work, as if the ground beneath 
> my feet wasn't solid.
>
> Respectfully, Jeremy, your statement that TW gives enough power to shoot 
> oneself in the foot is not convincing, because while I do see that TW is 
> extremely powerful and versatile, I honestly don't think that a reliable 
> saving mechanism gets in the way of that.
>
> The reason I chose TW in the first place was out of admiration for its 
> highly self-reflective design. That admiration has not abated in the 
> slightest.
>
> Yours truly,
> Bruno
>

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[tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[PMario]

Hi Bruno, 

Some questions:

 - Which OS do you use on your client-browser? OS and Version?
- electron version?
 - Is there a network connection in between, or is it localhost?
- Where does the node.js server run? OS, V?


that's it for the moment. 

-m

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[tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Bruno Loff]

Sorry for the angry vent, that was uncalled for. I was really upset.

The bug, wherever it lies, is hard to reproduce.

I am running a node.js instance, and accessing it via the browser (actually 
via a custom-made electron app which I had eventually planned to release 
publicly).

When I usually write a draft and close the app, the draft will still be 
there when I return, provided that I wait enough for the "save" button to 
turn from red to gray. So I became used to this feature. It seemed very 
clever since TW will autosave very often while in the middle of editing, so 
I had a false sense of security: "even if the latest edit I've made is 
lost, that's at most one or two sentences, so no big deal".

But at some point, maybe the application was closed in some abnormal way, 
maybe it was killed, maybe it was closed before the red "save" button 
turned back to gray, something like that, I couldn't reproduce the problem, 
so I'm not sure when it occurs. Upon opening the wiki again, the draft 
tiddler still exists, but it is no longer in "editing" mode when I return, 
and, worst of all, its contents are completely empty. So I didn't just lose 
the last few sentences I had written since the last successful autosave, I 
lost all the changes that I had made since last clicking the "confirm 
changes to this tiddler" button. When searching through the .tid files in 
the wikifolder, indeed the "Draft of ... .tid" file was there, but it was 
also empty.

The behavior I expected was that, even if the changes I last made were not 
properly saved, the draft should be at whichever state it was since the 
last autosave happened. So for example, when the Sync machinery is working 
to auto-save the contents of a draft, it should ensure that the operations 
are "atomic", in some way, i.e., that the promise holds that it should 
either overwrite the draft with the new edits, or preserve the draft's 
contents since the last time it autosaved. *Never* should it happen that 
the entire draft just disappears.

The feeling of insecurity I get from having this basic assumption broken 
makes me very uncomfortable in using TW for work, as if the ground beneath 
my feet wasn't solid.

Respectfully, Jeremy, your statement that TW gives enough power to shoot 
oneself in the foot is not convincing, because while I do see that TW is 
extremely powerful and versatile, I honestly don't think that a reliable 
saving mechanism gets in the way of that.

The reason I chose TW in the first place was out of admiration for its 
highly self-reflective design. That admiration has not abated in the 
slightest.

Yours truly,
Bruno

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[tw] Re: Lost work two times with tiddlywiki node version

[Hiru Yoru]

Hi,

That sucks. I've been there. Have you tried the Classic version? I 
personally prefer that one and it has options that you can set to auto-save 
any changes and to create backups. It is located here: 
http://classic.tiddlywiki.com 
-- There are also a lot of plugins and themes already out there because 
it's been around for a while.

You can set the auto-save and save-backups settings on the "options »" 
panel on the right. Click it and it will show you a panel, then check the 
boxes. To specify a backup folder, you'd hover your mouse over the top 
right-hand corner of the screen and it will show you a "backstage" button. 
Click it and it will open a bar. Click on "tweak" and then at the top of 
the table, you can see the backups folder name as the third option down. 
You can also access the aforementioned auto-save and save-backups options 
here. 

It's very hard to lose work when using these methods because a copy of your 
wiki is saved every time you click "done" when editing a tiddler. It's also 
saved whenever you manually click "save." If your current wiki somehow went 
wrong, you can even go back to the backups and check them for previous 
information. You can open them just as you would your main wiki file. 

There are themes for it here: http://themes.tiddlywiki.com/
Plugins/extensions are here: http://tiddlyvault.tiddlyspot.com/

I hope this helps. I'm yet to lose anything with this method, and have 
great trust in it.

Regards,
Hiru


On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 5:53:43 AM UTC-5, Bruno Loff wrote:
>
> I have been using tiddlywiki for taking notes for my work for the last 
> couple of months. I was fascinated with the extensibility of it, and have 
> spent many hours customizing it to suit my purpose.
>
> But in this week I mysteriously lost my work two times while running 
> tiddlywiki on node. That's over fourteen hours of work that I now have to 
> redo, hopefully I'll remember everything. I'm pretty pissed off.
>
> If you don't pay attention to something as fundamental as "saving", your 
> whole software is standing on a shaky foundation.
>
> Instead of recommending the use of tiddlywiki for someone writing a novel 
> (god spare them), you should put a disclaimer in your webpage.
>
> I guess that as a piece of software, it just isn't reliable enough for 
> serious work. After burning myself in this way I will be very hesitant in 
> using it for anything else ever again.
>
> I thought I would leave the criticism here, in case the developer is 
> willing to learn from it.
>
>

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