Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[TonyM]

Thomas,

Looks to me like this aspect of the TiddlyWiki UI is not as amenable to 
"hacking" or modification as are other parts. Perhaps modifying this to 
allow overriding should be the first step?

Regards
Tony

On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 7:29:51 AM UTC+10, Thomas Elmiger wrote:
>
> Tony, 
>
> I assume you are right, the built-in colours of TW seem to stem from this 
> standard. They can be found in 
> $:/core/modules/utils/dom/csscolorparser.js
>
> BUT: tachyons.io uses other definitions for a colour palette conaining 
> identical names ... see http://tachyons.io/#style and scroll down.
>
> So there IS already a mapping, but it is in the core and thus I see no way 
> to replace it in connection with a theme/skin/design system.
>
> Cheers,
> Thomas
>
>
> Am Mittwoch, 22. Mai 2019 11:48:16 UTC+2 schrieb TonyM:
>>
>> Thomas,
>>
>> If I understand correctly colour names come from a html / css standard - 
>> see here https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/css_colors.asp
>>
>> If you wanted you could make a table or index mapping names to hex values.
>>
>> Then of course there are set of names that are defined in tiddlywiki for 
>> particular elements, like "primary". 
>>
>> Regards
>> Tony
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Thomas Elmiger]

Tony, 

I assume you are right, the built-in colours of TW seem to stem from this 
standard. They can be found in 
$:/core/modules/utils/dom/csscolorparser.js

BUT: tachyons.io uses other definitions for a colour palette conaining 
identical names ... see http://tachyons.io/#style and scroll down.

So there IS already a mapping, but it is in the core and thus I see no way 
to replace it in connection with a theme/skin/design system.

Cheers,
Thomas


Am Mittwoch, 22. Mai 2019 11:48:16 UTC+2 schrieb TonyM:
>
> Thomas,
>
> If I understand correctly colour names come from a html / css standard - 
> see here https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/css_colors.asp
>
> If you wanted you could make a table or index mapping names to hex values.
>
> Then of course there are set of names that are defined in tiddlywiki for 
> particular elements, like "primary". 
>
> Regards
> Tony
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[TonyM]

Thomas,

If I understand correctly colour names come from a html / css standard - 
see here https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/css_colors.asp

If you wanted you could make a table or index mapping names to hex values.

Then of course there are set of names that are defined in tiddlywiki for 
particular elements, like "primary". 

Regards
Tony

On Wednesday, May 22, 2019 at 8:25:21 AM UTC+10, Thomas Elmiger wrote:
>
> Hi folks, 
>
> This is going in a direction I like! I should go to bed, so I'll try to 
> keep my input short for this time. And I am writing this from my memory, 
> there might be errors.
>
> What I borrowed from *tachyons.io * for 
> https://tid.li/tw5/test/bricks.html (warning: not cleaned up) is mainly 
> its measurement system: As I didn’t want to redefine all TW classes, 
> standard tachions measures (sizes, distances) were put into TW variables 
> and used in my collection of stylesheets – preserving and revising much of 
> the original TW style in the first round. I did still want TW to resemble 
> itself. Many users are used to how TW looks since several years. No need to 
> scare them/to make them re-learn stuff they know.
>
> What I learned: Using these variables *adds a layer of complexity* to 
> styling TW via stylesheets. And I am afraid that mapping TW classes, like 
> Jeremy suggests, would also add a layer of complexity to theme (or skin or 
> design) develoment. On the other hand: TW configuration via control panel 
> already adds a layer of complexity ... maybe we could reduce there if we 
> had more and bettter themes to choose from.
> To optimize *performance* for my themes on https://tid.li/tw5/themes.html, 
> I made generators to render CSS and colour palettes into mostly static 
> files. 
>
> What I was not able to do: There are colour names (white, grey, black, 
> ...) built into TW already somewhere. Also these definitions sbould be made 
> more accessible/updateable/replaceable for designers who would like to 
> apply other colour schemes. I was not able to *replace* the coulour 
> definitions for named colours, I had to *add*. 
> I also invented new tools to opitmize colour handling and contrasts, but 
> that’s another story. 
>
> I am very busy at the moment, but feel free to ask if someting is unclear. 
> I can imagine that my concepts sometimes are hard to grasp ;–)
>
> All the best, 
> Thomas
>
> Am Sonntag, 19. Mai 2019 18:13:06 UTC+2 schrieb PMario:
>>
>> On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 3:37:42 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>>
>>> I’m keen to introduce a new default theme as part of a future v5.2.x 
>>> version of TW5. I’d definitely be wanting to use an off-the-shelf 
>>> framework, and tend to favour the simpler ones that focus on typography, 
>>> such as Tachyons (https://tachyons.io/).
>>>
>>
>> As far as I can see, tachions grid is based on float: left. ... Which is 
>> imo out of date if you want to start a new UI system. It depends on well 
>> defined clear-fixes , which 
>> make it hard for most users to do things right. 
>>
>> just a thought. 
>>
>> -mario
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi folks, 

This is going in a direction I like! I should go to bed, so I'll try to 
keep my input short for this time. And I am writing this from my memory, 
there might be errors.

What I borrowed from *tachyons.io* for https://tid.li/tw5/test/bricks.html 
(warning: not cleaned up) is mainly its measurement system: As I didn’t 
want to redefine all TW classes, standard tachions measures (sizes, 
distances) were put into TW variables and used in my collection of 
stylesheets – preserving and revising much of the original TW style in the 
first round. I did still want TW to resemble itself. Many users are used to 
how TW looks since several years. No need to scare them/to make them 
re-learn stuff they know.

What I learned: Using these variables *adds a layer of complexity* to 
styling TW via stylesheets. And I am afraid that mapping TW classes, like 
Jeremy suggests, would also add a layer of complexity to theme (or skin or 
design) develoment. On the other hand: TW configuration via control panel 
already adds a layer of complexity ... maybe we could reduce there if we 
had more and bettter themes to choose from.
To optimize *performance* for my themes on https://tid.li/tw5/themes.html, 
I made generators to render CSS and colour palettes into mostly static 
files. 

What I was not able to do: There are colour names (white, grey, black, ...) 
built into TW already somewhere. Also these definitions sbould be made more 
accessible/updateable/replaceable for designers who would like to apply 
other colour schemes. I was not able to *replace* the coulour definitions 
for named colours, I had to *add*. 
I also invented new tools to opitmize colour handling and contrasts, but 
that’s another story. 

I am very busy at the moment, but feel free to ask if someting is unclear. 
I can imagine that my concepts sometimes are hard to grasp ;–)

All the best, 
Thomas

Am Sonntag, 19. Mai 2019 18:13:06 UTC+2 schrieb PMario:
>
> On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 3:37:42 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>
>> I’m keen to introduce a new default theme as part of a future v5.2.x 
>> version of TW5. I’d definitely be wanting to use an off-the-shelf 
>> framework, and tend to favour the simpler ones that focus on typography, 
>> such as Tachyons (https://tachyons.io/).
>>
>
> As far as I can see, tachions grid is based on float: left. ... Which is 
> imo out of date if you want to start a new UI system. It depends on well 
> defined clear-fixes , which 
> make it hard for most users to do things right. 
>
> just a thought. 
>
> -mario
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[PMario]

On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 4:49:00 PM UTC+2, Mohammad wrote:
>
> Hi Jeremy,
>
> I strongly support this! Having css frameworks in TW can boost it and lets 
> easily adopt it for different uses like elegant web pages.
> Like Mario, I recommend a more up to date CSS even the lifetime of them 
> are around 5 years.
>

CSS grid is a generic option, that is relatively new. ... The lifetime of 
CSS grid will definitely be longer than 5 years. 

Major browser vendors removed the (experimental) vendor-prefix they used 
for a long time, in October 2017. ... Removing the vendor-prefix is similar 
to declare it production-ready, in "browser speak".

-m

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Mohammad]

More input:
 While I tried to adopt several parts of Bootstrap in Shiraz plugin, but I 
think Bulma (https://bulma.io/) may be a better choice as it is lighter 
100% modular and JS free!!

I would like to recommend the below page describes the pros and cos of most 
popular CSS framework.

https://geekflare.com/best-css-frameworks/


--Mohammad


On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 6:07:42 PM UTC+4:30, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> I’m keen to introduce a new default theme as part of a future v5.2.x 
> version of TW5. I’d definitely be wanting to use an off-the-shelf 
> framework, and tend to favour the simpler ones that focus on typography, 
> such as Tachyons (https://tachyons.io/).
>
> As others have suggested, I’d also be keen to package up some or all of 
> the popular CSS frameworks such as Bootstrap and Semantic UI as optional 
> plugins.
>
> The trouble, of course, is that each framework has different expectations 
> of the classes that will be used to implement components. For example, 
> Bootstrap needs the classes .btn and .btn-success to be added to a stock 
> HTML button, while Semantic UI expects the classes .ui and .button.
>
> So, it’s not practical for the core to include classes for all the 
> available frameworks. So, if a user were to choose to import the Semantic 
> UI framework plugin they would be able to make their own freshly written 
> buttons use the correct styles, but the existing buttons used by the core 
> would stay with their default styling.
>
> There is a potential solution: the core could use tiddlers to map the 
> names of UI components to the classes that should be assigned. For example, 
> somewhere there might be a declaration like this that says “give components 
> of type “button” the CSS classes ban and btn-success:
>
> button: btn btn-success
>
> Then the core would define buttons like this:
>
> 
>
> Then, the Semantic UI plugin would change the value of 
> $:/config/ui/component-classes/button to be “ui button”.
>
> There might be concern about performance, but transcluded attributes are 
> pretty efficient, it’s just one extra lookup over a string value. Anyhow, 
> it’s not something I’ve had a chance to explore yet, but I’m keen to do so 
> for v5.2.x
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>
> On 18 May 2019, at 05:42, TonyM > wrote:
>
> Josiah,
>
> You say *without conversion to TW classes. * Is this because you want to 
> change fundamentally the way tiddlyWiki works?. 
>
> I use the css in these frameworks to craft content within my tiddlers 
> typically using html with wikitext embeded to generate lists and columns or 
> display a value. 
>
> On a current project I am building html templates for the display of 
> content in a given tiddler. For example I have a tiddler type of Office, 
> with a couple of dozen fields, and I use vanilla html/css to structure the 
> way the tiddler content is displayed through a template. It appears such 
> html and css rich templates embeded with wikitext can be considered 
> equivalent to HTML pages, such pages can be designed with elements from any 
> css platform with few limits that wikitext can usually overcome. HTML 
> Layouts can be found all over the net that can get such a page started.
>
> I would like to know what you are doing that you want to convert to tw 
> classes?
>
> Regards
> Tony
>
> On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 3:46:45 AM UTC+10, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> Ciao TonyM
>>
>> TonyM wrote:
>>>
>>> My 2 cents. The addition of w3cc, bootstrap etc... is trivial, just 
>>> obtain the desired css file install and tag as a stylesheet. 
>>>
>>
>> IMO its not trivial. Its not useful to install css libraries without 
>> conversion to TW classes. And that is slog. It is serious work, I think.
>>
>> I think there is an issue about libraries. Meaning--is one or another a 
>> better fit with TW? Better to go with one that is a good fit?
>>
>> Side thoughts
>> Josiah
>>
>
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> 
> .
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>
>
>
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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Mohammad]

Hi Jeremy,

I strongly support this! Having css frameworks in TW can boost it and lets 
easily adopt it for different uses like elegant web pages.
Like Mario, I recommend a more up to date CSS even the lifetime of them are 
around 5 years.

--Mohammad


On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 6:07:42 PM UTC+4:30, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> I’m keen to introduce a new default theme as part of a future v5.2.x 
> version of TW5. I’d definitely be wanting to use an off-the-shelf 
> framework, and tend to favour the simpler ones that focus on typography, 
> such as Tachyons (https://tachyons.io/).
>
> As others have suggested, I’d also be keen to package up some or all of 
> the popular CSS frameworks such as Bootstrap and Semantic UI as optional 
> plugins.
>
> The trouble, of course, is that each framework has different expectations 
> of the classes that will be used to implement components. For example, 
> Bootstrap needs the classes .btn and .btn-success to be added to a stock 
> HTML button, while Semantic UI expects the classes .ui and .button.
>
> So, it’s not practical for the core to include classes for all the 
> available frameworks. So, if a user were to choose to import the Semantic 
> UI framework plugin they would be able to make their own freshly written 
> buttons use the correct styles, but the existing buttons used by the core 
> would stay with their default styling.
>
> There is a potential solution: the core could use tiddlers to map the 
> names of UI components to the classes that should be assigned. For example, 
> somewhere there might be a declaration like this that says “give components 
> of type “button” the CSS classes ban and btn-success:
>
> button: btn btn-success
>
> Then the core would define buttons like this:
>
> 
>
> Then, the Semantic UI plugin would change the value of 
> $:/config/ui/component-classes/button to be “ui button”.
>
> There might be concern about performance, but transcluded attributes are 
> pretty efficient, it’s just one extra lookup over a string value. Anyhow, 
> it’s not something I’ve had a chance to explore yet, but I’m keen to do so 
> for v5.2.x
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>
> On 18 May 2019, at 05:42, TonyM > wrote:
>
> Josiah,
>
> You say *without conversion to TW classes. * Is this because you want to 
> change fundamentally the way tiddlyWiki works?. 
>
> I use the css in these frameworks to craft content within my tiddlers 
> typically using html with wikitext embeded to generate lists and columns or 
> display a value. 
>
> On a current project I am building html templates for the display of 
> content in a given tiddler. For example I have a tiddler type of Office, 
> with a couple of dozen fields, and I use vanilla html/css to structure the 
> way the tiddler content is displayed through a template. It appears such 
> html and css rich templates embeded with wikitext can be considered 
> equivalent to HTML pages, such pages can be designed with elements from any 
> css platform with few limits that wikitext can usually overcome. HTML 
> Layouts can be found all over the net that can get such a page started.
>
> I would like to know what you are doing that you want to convert to tw 
> classes?
>
> Regards
> Tony
>
> On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 3:46:45 AM UTC+10, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> Ciao TonyM
>>
>> TonyM wrote:
>>>
>>> My 2 cents. The addition of w3cc, bootstrap etc... is trivial, just 
>>> obtain the desired css file install and tag as a stylesheet. 
>>>
>>
>> IMO its not trivial. Its not useful to install css libraries without 
>> conversion to TW classes. And that is slog. It is serious work, I think.
>>
>> I think there is an issue about libraries. Meaning--is one or another a 
>> better fit with TW? Better to go with one that is a good fit?
>>
>> Side thoughts
>> Josiah
>>
>
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>  
> 
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[@TiddlyTweeter]

>
> Jeremy Ruston wrote:
> ...
>
>> Yuck. One problem is that the average lifetime of things like CSS 
>> frameworks is only 2-5 years, and TW5 has already been around for a lot 
>> longer than that. There’s a danger that anything that we adopt will become 
>> abandoned and unmaintained. That’s part of the motivation for the idea of 
>> translatable CSS classes above.
>>
>
>
 PMario (PM) wrote:
>
> Yes. That's exactly, what I want to point out. ... 
>
> All major browsers adopted the CSS grid  
> now. So we should think about the possibilities we have here. 
>
 
I'm no CSS expert. But I'd like to comment that CSS3, on introduction, was 
a defining moment. 

Future CSS will likely modularise. CSS4 likely won't be one thing--rather 
its likely to scale off 3 in several directions. 

Aligning with the full remit of CSS3 would ensure longevity. I'm not sure 
even popular frameworks fully use it yet?

I agree with PM in concern that some approaches are better than others for 
TW. That some libraries may not be ideal. 

I'd say there are TWO issues ...

  1 -- what is a library approach that stays open enough?

  2 -- the importance of making the existing CSS easier to understand. (I 
sort of suspect if we had easier insight into our own CSS a swathe of 
obstacles would disappear).
I mean there is NO list of classes in a form a designer can use yet?

AND I want to comment ...

  3 - we DO have CSS skilled people ... like Riz, Telmiger, J.D., BTC and 
others who may have thoughts worth hearing.

Best wishes
Josiah

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mario

> As far as I can see, tachions grid is based on float: left. ... Which is imo 
> out of date if you want to start a new UI system. It depends on well defined 
> clear-fixes , which make it hard 
> for most users to do things right. 

Yuck. One problem is that the average lifetime of things like CSS frameworks is 
only 2-5 years, and TW5 has already been around for a lot longer than that. 
There’s a danger that anything that we adopt will become abandoned and 
unmaintained. That’s part of the motivation for the idea of translatable CSS 
classes above.

Best wishes

Jeremy

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[PMario]

On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 3:37:42 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> I’m keen to introduce a new default theme as part of a future v5.2.x 
> version of TW5. I’d definitely be wanting to use an off-the-shelf 
> framework, and tend to favour the simpler ones that focus on typography, 
> such as Tachyons (https://tachyons.io/).
>

As far as I can see, tachions grid is based on float: left. ... Which is 
imo out of date if you want to start a new UI system. It depends on well 
defined clear-fixes , which make 
it hard for most users to do things right. 

just a thought. 

-mario

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Re: [tw5] Re: Visual Design Thoughts, #14 revision T7

[Jeremy Ruston]

I’m keen to introduce a new default theme as part of a future v5.2.x version of 
TW5. I’d definitely be wanting to use an off-the-shelf framework, and tend to 
favour the simpler ones that focus on typography, such as Tachyons 
(https://tachyons.io/ ).

As others have suggested, I’d also be keen to package up some or all of the 
popular CSS frameworks such as Bootstrap and Semantic UI as optional plugins.

The trouble, of course, is that each framework has different expectations of 
the classes that will be used to implement components. For example, Bootstrap 
needs the classes .btn and .btn-success to be added to a stock HTML button, 
while Semantic UI expects the classes .ui and .button.

So, it’s not practical for the core to include classes for all the available 
frameworks. So, if a user were to choose to import the Semantic UI framework 
plugin they would be able to make their own freshly written buttons use the 
correct styles, but the existing buttons used by the core would stay with their 
default styling.

There is a potential solution: the core could use tiddlers to map the names of 
UI components to the classes that should be assigned. For example, somewhere 
there might be a declaration like this that says “give components of type 
“button” the CSS classes ban and btn-success:

button: btn btn-success

Then the core would define buttons like this:



Then, the Semantic UI plugin would change the value of 
$:/config/ui/component-classes/button to be “ui button”.

There might be concern about performance, but transcluded attributes are pretty 
efficient, it’s just one extra lookup over a string value. Anyhow, it’s not 
something I’ve had a chance to explore yet, but I’m keen to do so for v5.2.x

Best wishes

Jeremy.

> On 18 May 2019, at 05:42, TonyM  wrote:
> 
> Josiah,
> 
> You say without conversion to TW classes.  Is this because you want to change 
> fundamentally the way tiddlyWiki works?. 
> 
> I use the css in these frameworks to craft content within my tiddlers 
> typically using html with wikitext embeded to generate lists and columns or 
> display a value. 
> 
> On a current project I am building html templates for the display of content 
> in a given tiddler. For example I have a tiddler type of Office, with a 
> couple of dozen fields, and I use vanilla html/css to structure the way the 
> tiddler content is displayed through a template. It appears such html and css 
> rich templates embeded with wikitext can be considered equivalent to HTML 
> pages, such pages can be designed with elements from any css platform with 
> few limits that wikitext can usually overcome. HTML Layouts can be found all 
> over the net that can get such a page started.
> 
> I would like to know what you are doing that you want to convert to tw 
> classes?
> 
> Regards
> Tony
> 
> On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 3:46:45 AM UTC+10, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
> Ciao TonyM
> 
> TonyM wrote:
> My 2 cents. The addition of w3cc, bootstrap etc... is trivial, just obtain 
> the desired css file install and tag as a stylesheet. 
> 
> IMO its not trivial. Its not useful to install css libraries without 
> conversion to TW classes. And that is slog. It is serious work, I think.
> 
> I think there is an issue about libraries. Meaning--is one or another a 
> better fit with TW? Better to go with one that is a good fit?
> 
> Side thoughts
> Josiah
> 
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