] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,
I've talked to the GPS jammers at Nellis and have seen their gear. They
don't spoof but just jam. The gear is totally COTS. Some Marconi signal
generator that can generate white noise at the two GPS frequencies. They
have omni or directional antennas. They have
G8GJA
-Original Message-
From: Bob Camp [mailto:li...@rtty.us]
Sent: 16 December 2011 00:31
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,
Hi
Hard to detect looking horizontally, pretty easy looking straight up
01:30
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,
On 12/15/11 4:53 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Radar bounces off the flat sides very nicely
You are right, it does, but it doesn't bounce BACK towards the observer,
which is what you care about
And what does LightSquared have to do with time-nuttery?
-John
Obvious - it may break your reception of the GPS time reference.
David
--
SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,
Fascinating.
I can picture setting up a bunch of transmitters in the hills to send out
strong GPS-like signals to mimic the real thing. I suppose you could control
those signals to fool
If it jams your GPS - quite a lot!!
Rob
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of J. Forster
Sent: 16 December 2011 06:24
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Michael Costolo
michael.cost...@gmail.com wrote:
Is there no way to have some validation of the integrity of a GPS signal?
Yes there is. One way is to cary an inertial
measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,
Oh I don't know. How about an Alpha Jet.
http://www.irandefence.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=44ppuser=9968
The Google boys own one of these too!
On 12/15/2011 6:58 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:
Few aircrafts can
time conquered a
large part of the world. We forget this at our peril.
Francis
From: Joe Leikhim jleik...@leikhim.com
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,
Message-ID: 4eea874c
: Friday, December 16, 2011 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,
We forget this at our peril.
Francis
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Fascinating.
I can picture setting up a bunch of transmitters in the hills to send out
strong GPS-like signals to mimic the real thing. I suppose you could
control those signals to fool the device it is somewhere else. That bit is
very clever - you'd have to adjust the signals taking into account
John wrote:
Iran hijacked US drone, claims Iranian engineer Tells Christian Science
Monitor that CIA's spy aircraft was 'spoofed' into landing in enemy
territory instead of its home base in Afghanistan
Iran guided the CIA's lost stealth drone to an intact landing inside
hostile territory by
In the 1970's, and 80's, US universities educated great quantities of
Iranian students. Although there were some duds, most were very smart.
I've worked with several that could easily hack such a drone. Hell,
there were Iranian engineers that helped design the GPS satellites and
receivers.
I would say without question the answer is YES!
When the US DOD switched its backing to COTS electronics in all
of its defense hardware, it also went looking for the cheapest
way to get the most bang for the buck with defense hardware.
They certainly would be willing to save 100 lbs of inertial
It depends on if they use the civilian or military GPS signal. Spoofing the
military signal should be tough.
Inertial guidances isn't all that heavy these days. Laser ring gyros for
instance or perhaps MEMs could be used.
___
time-nuts mailing
Le 15 déc. 2011 à 23:24, Azelio Boriani a écrit :
There are GPS simulators for lab use (never seen live or in a picture), I
suppose they have one connector to feed the GPS receiver antenna.
Generating in one equipment all the signals you don't need many but only
one precise timing source.
Yes, now wondering if there are L1/L2 simulators out there... better
googling around.
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:35 PM, li...@lazygranch.com wrote:
It depends on if they use the civilian or military GPS signal. Spoofing
the military signal should be tough.
Inertial guidances isn't all that
On 12/15/2011 11:06 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote:
Fascinating.
I can picture setting up a bunch of transmitters in the hills to send out
strong GPS-like signals to mimic the real thing. I suppose you could
control those signals to fool the device it is somewhere else. That bit is
very clever -
Note that the undercarriage is always hidden when it's shown.
I suspect they simply jammed the GPS and command links, and it defaulted to an
automatic soft landing on not so soft terrain.
Rather less impressive, but still annoying.
___
time-nuts
Just watch how GPS stuff will get all restricted now.
On 12/15/2011 5:40 PM, mike cook wrote:
Le 15 déc. 2011 à 23:24, Azelio Boriani a écrit :
There are GPS simulators for lab use (never seen live or in a picture), I
suppose they have one connector to feed the GPS receiver antenna.
I agree. This is my opinion too.
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:50 PM, David VanHorn
d.vanh...@elec-solutions.com wrote:
Note that the undercarriage is always hidden when it's shown.
I suspect they simply jammed the GPS and command links, and it defaulted
to an automatic soft landing on not so
Hi,
From: Azelio Boriani azelio.bori...@screen.it
Yes, now wondering if there are L1/L2 simulators out there... better
googling around.
http://wireless.vt.edu/symposium/2011/posters/GPS%20Signal%20Simulation_Brown.pdf
Bye,
Jean-Louis
___
Le 15 déc. 2011 à 23:57, Peter Gottlieb a écrit :
Just watch how GPS stuff will get all restricted now.
Too late, Simulators are on paybay now. Just need deep pockets.
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Thank you for the link.
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Jean-Louis Noel j...@stben.net wrote:
Hi,
From: Azelio Boriani azelio.bori...@screen.it
Yes, now wondering if there are L1/L2 simulators out there... better
googling around.
The Spirent STR4500 seems very up-to-date, very expensive, L1 C/A only.
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:02 AM, Azelio Boriani
azelio.bori...@screen.itwrote:
Thank you for the link.
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Jean-Louis Noel j...@stben.net wrote:
Hi,
From: Azelio Boriani
I'm not so sure. What if you has one site, antenna, and transmitter and a
dozen signal sources with programmable synthesizers and coders.
The drone antenna is likely omni. The Russians or Chinese could easily
supply that.
-John
Fascinating.
I can picture setting up a bunch
I bet this drone contains no technology that is not exportable. Of
course they had to think about a crash.
I also bet it had an inertial nav system as backup to the GPS. But
and this is the key to all backups. You have to know the primary is
failed. When you jam GPS the smart way is not to
OK, now I know what a GPS simulator is like. BTW the Spirent is cheaper at
used-line.com than on paybay. Anyway my opinion doesn't change: as pointed
out by David VanHorn they have jammed the GPS and the data link. I think
the data link must be a sophisticated frequency hopping type radio link so,
I wonder how long it will be before we see Brinks vans, Ferrari's and other
more mundane GPS dependent things being hijacked. Possibilities seem limitless.
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You could just have a GPS receiver and use that to sync up the jammer.
-John
==
To transmit a GPS cluster signal you need a GPS simulator to generate
the cluster so even a single transmitter can do this, the relative
timing and not the different positions of the transmitters
Of course, but then when you switch on your transmitter you are on your
own. Considering the speed of a drone (700Km/h?) you need a great coverage,
so much RF power out.
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:22 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:
You could just have a GPS receiver and use that to sync
Now I've heard Lightsquared was installing a network in Iran! Just kidding, but
what would happen?
I would think that just jamming the L1-L2 frequencies would be enough to cause
the drone to fly in circles or a straight line until it ran out of fuel and
flopped to the ground, perhaps
Arriving this week, IEEE Magazine this months issue has an article about
pilot-less commercial airliners, comparing the UAV drone technology as
being readily available to fly paying passengers from here to there.
Coincidentally the table of contents page depicts a drone which appears
to be
I've talked to the GPS jammers at Nellis and have seen their gear. They
don't spoof but just jam. The gear is totally COTS. Some Marconi signal
generator that can generate white noise at the two GPS frequencies. They
have omni or directional antennas. They have an old Russian jammer on
hand,
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Azelio Boriani
azelio.bori...@screen.it wrote:
Considering the speed of a drone (700Km/h?) you need a great coverage,
so much RF power out.
No. The transmitter could be in an aircraft that follows the drone,
maybe only 100 feet away.
Chris Albertson
This mindset is an example why the US is falling so far behind the rest of the
world, not only in technology but in the diplomacy game. In 1980 I worked for a
very smart engineering manager who told me he studied electrical engineering by
the light of a gasoline lantern in a tent in Turkey.
You guys are just over-thinking this issue. Iran was merely testing out a new
Lightsquared base station.
Jerry
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and
Hi,
Of course, but then when you switch on your transmitter you are on your
own. Considering the speed of a drone (700Km/h?) you need a great
coverage, so much RF power out.
Easy: Use a dish antenna on the transmitter.
Very directional with large ampification.
If using a 'moderate' opening
Yes, agree. An OCXO is enough (but my opinion is the same: only jammed not
steered).
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Pieter ten Pierick
time-nuts-m...@tenpierick.com wrote:
Hi,
Of course, but then when you switch on your transmitter you are on your
own. Considering the speed of a drone
KISS guys.
Suppose the Iranians had one of their buddies watching the drone base.
When they saw a drone take off, the guy just called a contact by cell and
the Iranians turned on a wide coverage jammer somewhere along the flight
path.
From previous incidents and observations, if the drone came
] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,
Note that the undercarriage is always hidden when it's shown.
I suspect they simply jammed the GPS and command links, and it defaulted
to an automatic soft landing on not so soft terrain.
Rather less impressive, but still annoying
Kandahar has proven poor opsec since the thing was photographed! I don't
know about the base in Baluchistan.
But even knowing the launch doesn't mean they know when it is on target.
Supposedly the UAS is stealthy, so it would be hard to detect.
On 12/15/2011 4:00 PM, J. Forster wrote:
KISS
All I can say is that the sheet metal on that drone looks really good.
I doubt it ran out of fuel.
They either landed it which would require very high level spoofing
ability or like I said use something like a butterfly net on it. The
metal is just to straight for a crash.
On Thu, Dec 15,
It is composite, not metal.
If you know what you are doing, composites are extremely tough. I don't
know if graphite is kosher on a stealth plane. I have to assume it is
S-2 glass or similar nonconductive composites. But if graphite were
allowed, you would be amazed at how much abuse it could
Hi
Hard to detect looking horizontally, pretty easy looking straight up (or
straight down from above it).
Bob
On Dec 15, 2011, at 7:14 PM, gary wrote:
Kandahar has proven poor opsec since the thing was photographed! I don't know
about the base in Baluchistan.
But even knowing the
Has anybody seen the underside? It could have pancaked or crashed on sand
or something. I've no idea of the terrain at the crash site.
-John
===
All I can say is that the sheet metal on that drone looks really good.
I doubt it ran out of fuel.
They either landed it which would
Maybe you can hear them taking off?
-John
=
Hi
Hard to detect looking horizontally, pretty easy looking straight up (or
straight down from above it).
Bob
On Dec 15, 2011, at 7:14 PM, gary wrote:
Kandahar has proven poor opsec since the thing was photographed! I don't
Hi
Radar bounces off the flat sides very nicely ….
Bob
On Dec 15, 2011, at 7:41 PM, J. Forster wrote:
Maybe you can hear them taking off?
-John
=
Hi
Hard to detect looking horizontally, pretty easy looking straight up (or
straight down from above it).
Bob
The problem I have seen with the light weight electronic inertial
guidance sensors is they drift off course very quickly. You would need
to be able to correct them several times per minute... Good enough to
keep a plane flying straight and level, and in the general direction of
target, but not
On 12/15/11 3:41 PM, Joe Leikhim wrote:
Arriving this week, IEEE Magazine this months issue has an article about
pilot-less commercial airliners, comparing the UAV drone technology as
being readily available to fly paying passengers from here to there.
Coincidentally the table of contents page
On 12/15/11 2:06 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote:
Fascinating.
I can picture setting up a bunch of transmitters in the hills to send out
strong GPS-like signals to mimic the real thing. I suppose you could
control those signals to fool the device it is somewhere else. That bit is
very clever - you'd
On 12/15/11 2:17 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote:
John wrote:
Iran hijacked US drone, claims Iranian engineer Tells Christian Science
Monitor that CIA's spy aircraft was 'spoofed' into landing in enemy
territory instead of its home base in Afghanistan
Iran guided the CIA's lost stealth drone to
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net wrote:
Just watch how GPS stuff will get all restricted now.
I'm curious if the lightsquared folks will try to use this as leverage to
debunk the importance of GPS.
___
time-nuts
Having a +20m wingspan, getting very decent inertial sensors is no
problem. ca 6kg on a 5000kg(?) vehicle is no problem.
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/ln251-digital-ins-gps/assets/ln251.pdf
--
Björn
The problem I have seen with the light weight electronic inertial
On 12/15/11 2:24 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:
There are GPS simulators for lab use (never seen live or in a picture), I
suppose they have one connector to feed the GPS receiver antenna.
Generating in one equipment all the signals you don't need many but only
one precise timing source.
Not quite
On 12/15/11 2:26 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:
I would say without question the answer is YES!
When the US DOD switched its backing to COTS electronics in all
of its defense hardware, it also went looking for the cheapest
way to get the most bang for the buck with defense hardware.
They certainly
On 12/15/11 4:30 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Hard to detect looking horizontally, pretty easy looking straight up (or
straight down from above it).
Hard to detect against ground clutter looking down (assuming the Iranis
have suitable radars that can do this). Maybe thermal signature from
On 12/15/11 4:53 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Radar bounces off the flat sides very nicely ….
You are right, it does, but it doesn't bounce BACK towards the observer,
which is what you care about. Consider a flat plate at a 45 degree
angle from you. All the radar energy bounces to the side.
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 4:23 PM, gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote:
It is composite, not metal.
If you know what you are doing, composites are extremely tough. I don't know
if graphite is kosher on a stealth plane. I have to assume it is S-2 glass
or similar nonconductive composites. But if
Hi
Looking at the gizmo they have on display, I'd bet you get a pretty good return
off the bottom of the beast. Not quite as good a return off of the top. Indeed
the issue does date to F-117 days, they had to calculate mission parameters to
keep the sides from facing the wrong way...
Bob
On
Wait a second. Rolling a Bronco on your composite is not a tough enough
test? You should get an award.
If the UAS is designed to maintain controlled flights while out of fuel,
it could be in much better shape than if it was a lawn dart.
Hard to believe, but the chances of surviving a
Hi
Put a $35 eBay rubidium on board and you would have to be sure the time
solution stayed correct as the take over was implemented.
I know strange to tie timing into a discussion like this :)….
Bob
On Dec 15, 2011, at 8:20 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
On 12/15/11 2:24 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:
This is all very interesting. I may have missed it if it was posted previously,
but here they claim what they did to dupe and land the bird. Now how much of
this is true remains to be seen. I'm curious how plausible the story is.
Is there no way to have some validation of the integrity of a
:30
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Azelio Boriani
azelio.bori
-boun...@febo.com
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 18:48:28
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'time-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: jleik...@leikhim.com,
Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation
Hi Azelio:
Yes, see:
a first generation single signal GPS generator
http://www.prc68.com/I/5001A.html
and a newer GPS sig gen that can simulate 5 L1 and 5 L2 signals:
http://www.prc68.com/I/NTgpsSTR2760.shtml
Not only is precise timing not required, there's no provision for it on the NT
Hi:
Most modern cars use the CAN bus and those with built-in cell phones have a connection between the two. For example the
GM Omni Star system that detects air bag deployment and calls 911, or that can unlock you can when you have locked the
keys inside. See the opening scenes of the movie
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Michael Costolo
michael.cost...@gmail.com wrote:
Is there no way to have some validation of the integrity of a GPS signal?
Yes there is. One way is to cary an inertial navigation system and
compare you position using INS and GPS and if they differ try and
guess
MIC CHECK!
It is time to occupy this thread with something that is time-nutty.
The previous thread on gravity control of a pendulum clock was hijacked
by Jim Palfreyman to a conflict on the metric system, that led to
something completely off topic continuing under the SAME SUBJECT.
Now John
Hi Joe:
The new L5 GPS frequency is to prevent that. But it's not yet operational.
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/Brooke4Congress.html
Joe Leikhim wrote:
Arriving this week, IEEE Magazine this months issue has an article about pilot-less
Oh I don't know. How about an Alpha Jet.
http://www.irandefence.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=44ppuser=9968
The Google boys own one of these too!
On 12/15/2011 6:58 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:
Few aircrafts can fly as high as this plane, not sure the Iranians have one.
Didier KO4BB
On 12/15/11 5:51 PM, ed breya wrote:
My guess is that the drone was on one mission out of many over Iran, and
one of these scenarios occurred:
1. It had a major internal failure and auto-landed or crashed, and was
then spotted and grabbed.
2. There was operator error or guidance failure,
On 12/15/11 5:32 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
But still, running out of fuel? There would have been little bits of
airplane all over a hundred feet or more.I can't see how it could
survive an impact with the ground so well.
Running out of fuel is unlikely. Engine failure much more likely.
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