date:20111215

SD-SDI 270MHz, then there is the HD-SDI.
Brooke, the 77.503KHz you mention for the DCF77: are you sure the IF is
3KHz? 77.503KHz is 77.5KHz + 3Hz...

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH) 
stefan.heinzm...@alcnetworx.de wrote:

 13.5 and 27 MHz are usually associated with digital video. SD video with
 720 x 576 has a pixel clock of 13.5 MHz, and the corresponding SDI bit
 clock is 270 MHz.

 Cheers
 Stefan

 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] Im
 Auftrag von Brooke Clarke
 Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. Dezember 2011 04:13
 An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Betreff: [time-nuts] Why these Crystal Frequencies?

 Hi Pete:

 Maybe you can shed some light on the common xtal frequencies table where
 there's no explanation given?
 http://www.prc68.com/I/pdf/Crystal_Freq.pdf
 An answer is not it's an even frequency or it's an even binary
 frequency. That's true for most of these and the factors are part of the
 table above.
 The question is why do they exist?
 such as:
 32.0 kHz
 40.0
 75.0
 76.79
 76.8
 76.81
 96.0
 3.072 MHz
 4.0
 4.096
 5.0
 6.0
 7.3729
 8.0
 8.192
 9.8304
 10.0
 11.0
 11.0592
 11.2896
 12.0
 12.288
 12.352
 13.5
 14.31818
 15.36
 16.0
 16.384
 17.734475
 18.0
 18.432
 19.6608
 19.44
 22.1184
 24.0
 24.567
 25.0
 25.175
 28.63636
 30.0
 1.4204058 GHz

 Have Fun,

 Brooke Clarke
 http://www.PRC68.com
 http://www.end2partygovernment.com/Brooke4Congress.html


 Peter Bell wrote:
  It's exactly 52 times the 1.2288MHz reference that IS95/CDMA2K uses -
  this may be a coincidence, but I somehow doubt it.
 
  Regards,
 
  Pete
 
 
  On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:46 AM, Joe Leikhimjleik...@leikhim.com
  wrote:
  I have been watching this thread and may have missed something. My
  questions: What is the purpose of the outboard OCXO VECTRON
  63.8976Mhz? What model number does this RB most closely resemble?
 
  --
  Joe Leikhim
 
  Leikhim and Associates
  Communications Consultants
  Oviedo, Florida
 
  www.Leikhim.com
 
  jleik...@leikhim.com
 
  407-982-0446
 
  Note to GMail Account users. Due to an abnormally high volume of spam
  originating from bogus GMail accounts, I have found it necessary to
  block certain GMail traffic. Please phone me if you believe your
  message was not received.
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?

2011-12-15 Thread Reeves Paul

Capacitance is, of course, measured in 'jars' as per the 'Admiralty Handbook
of Wireless Telegraphy' (1930 -ish) :-)
 I do use Farads (bits of them, anyway) guys, really.

Paul Reeves   G8GJA

-Original Message-
From: Don Latham [mailto:d...@montana.com] 
Sent: 14 December 2011 21:02
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?

OK, it's right most folks (except for NASA, poke poke) do not have to know
the difference between a pound mass and a pound force, or capacitance in ???
etc. The SI units are best for science because they are all tied together
with common ground. OTH, my grandmother's cookie recipe only puts pounds or
is it slugs on me...
Don

Justin Pinnix
 Contrary to popular belief, most of us in the U.S. have heard of the 
 metric system and understand how it works.  Personally, I agree that 
 it is a simpler and superior system.

 But, English is the system we think in.  We know that if a person is 
 300 lbs they need to lose weight, you need to drink 8 cups of water a 
 day, and wish for 70 degree days.  Grandma's cookie recipe uses 1 cup 
 of flour.
  Trying to convince 300 million people to re-learn all of that is a 
 tough sell when there is no obvious advantage to them.  Most are not 
 scientists or engineers and aren't likely to do business with a 
 foreign country.

 Those of us who are scientists and engineers likely use metric at work 
 and English at home.  Is that wrong?  Maybe, but we're smart people 
 and we can deal with it :-)

 It's not like metric is totally absent.  We drink 2 liter cokes and 
 defend
 ourselves with 9mm pistols.   Our cars use mostly metric parts.  Even
 ham
 radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past 
 bunch around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands.

 Furthermore, I've been to some of these countries that supposedly use 
 the metric system.  One of them measured distance between cities in km 
 and speed limits in MPH.  Now THAT was annoying!

 Progressives tried to force Metric on the U.S. in the 1970s and it 
 didn't catch on.  Besides, we've got bigger standardization problems 
 to deal with these days - getting everyone here to speak English!

 On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 2:29 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:

 I told myself I would stop after my last posts, but I can't help it.

 I do not pretend to know everything, but I am one of the relatively 
 few in my circle of friends with extensive experience with both 
 systems, and after
 26 years here, the imperial system has simply not made a case for 
 itself as far as I am concerned. It is my opinion, and a fact as far 
 as I am concerned, not that it makes it a universal truth in any 
 other frame of reference. Your mileage may vary.

 I agree that the decimal system is a big part of what makes me prefer 
 the metric system. The meter itself is not a superior unit than the 
 inch or the foot to measure anything. But there are other 
 considerations when using one system versus the other.
 Our designers and mechanical engineers here use decimal fractions of 
 an inch in specifying mechanical drawings, but raw metal stock (and
 tools) are
 still only available in 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 (and so on) of an inch 
 dimensions, so most dimensions have to be given with 3 or 4 decimals, 
 and even then they are not always right. When trying to mentally add 
 two, three or four dimensions each with 4 decimals, and one or two 
 digits to the left of the decimal point, it stops being fun and its 
 easy to make mistakes.
 Somehow, that was never an issue when I was designing back in France.
 Most
 dimensions has 2 or 3 significant digits, making the mental juggling 
 much easier.
 That was the reason for my characterization of the imperial system as 
 being more error prone. I never said or implied that it was less 
 precise.
 Precision is a function of the instrument, not the frame of reference.

 In the metric system, screws and wires are referenced by their 
 diameter, not a reference number that requires a table to figure out 
 how big they are. I understand these numbers correspond to something, 
 they are not arbitrary, but while they may simplify some 
 calculations, in everyday tasks, these numbers tend to complicate 
 life instead of simplifying it.
 Here, every designer has tables after tables plastered on their walls.
 In
 France, I do not remember that we needed so many.

 Another small thing I miss is that a liter of water weighs a kg 
 (under reference conditions, I forgot what that was :). Then the 
 specific weight of various materials only has to be known by their 
 density (ratio of specific weight compared to water). It makes all 
 sorts of calculations ( and guestimations) easy.

 But its just my opinion :)

 Didier

 Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

 -Original Message-
 From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com
 Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
 Date: Wed, 14

Re: [time-nuts] Ebay FE-5680A Rb

2011-12-15 Thread Rob Kimberley

There were some advertised for the equivalent of £32 without the OCXO (and
free shipping). Seemed like a good deal so I bought two.

Rob Kimberley

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of gandal...@aol.com
Sent: 14 December 2011 19:56
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ebay FE-5680A Rb

In a message dated 14/12/2011 19:46:56 GMT Standard Time,
jleik...@leikhim.com writes:

I have  been watching this thread and may have missed something. My
questions:  What is the purpose of the outboard OCXO VECTRON 63.8976Mhz? 
What model  number does this RB most closely resemble?

---
No purpose other than a bit of gamesmanship.
When first listed these auctions were categorised as New, but if you
looked at the small print it was the throwaway oscillator and/or 9 pin
connector  that were new but the RB module itself was indicated as used.

The module is just one variant of the FEI FE5680A, in this case the PN is
217400-30352-1 and the frequency can be adjusted over a small range using
HEX  strings that have previously been documented on this list, in order to
set it  accurately to 10MHz.

regards

Nigel
GM8PZR
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Re: [time-nuts] Why these Crystal Frequencies?

2011-12-15 Thread Randy Scott

 19.44


This is a typical frequency used in IS-136 TDMA cellular handsets and possibly 
base stations.  The value is 400 times the raw bit rate of the channel (48.6 
kHz).

Randy.


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Re: [time-nuts] Noob question on measuring Allan Deviation on 10 MHz source

2011-12-15 Thread George Dubovsky

John,

I believe the scaling factor was the key. Thanks.

I have v 1.58 of Stable32 and the scaling function now has its own button
and is not in the Open dialog. I'm sure I'm nowhere near out of the woods
yet, so I'm gonna keep your e-mail addy on speed dial ;-)


geo

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 4:19 PM, John Ackermann N8UR j...@febo.com wrote:

 Hi George --

 You can feed frequency data into Stable32, but the documentation doesn't
 clearly explain that you need to scale the readings into fractional
 frequency using the scaling function in the File/Open dialog.  To get
 fractional frequency, you divide the results by the nominal frequency,
 except that the scaling model in the Stable32 input box allows
 multiplication only.

 So, for a nominal 10 MHz (or 1e7 Hz) source where the data is in Hz format
 (10,000,000.xxx Hz), you would multiply by 1e-7.

 But if your counter outputs in MHz format, (10.xxx MHz), that's already
 effectively scaled by 1e-6.  So you end up using 1e-1 as the multiplier.

 I have lost much hair trying to keep this straight; as wonderful as
 Stable32 is, the documentation is aimed at people who already know what
 they are doing. :-)

 73,

 John
 


 On 12/14/2011 3:29 PM, George Dubovsky wrote:

 List;

 OK, I need to measure the stability of a 10 MHz sine-wave source. After
 reading a lot of background info on this list and some of the sources that
 were referenced, I thought I could get away with a frequency measurement.
 I
 now think I was wrong.

 What I have is an Agilent 53230A counter (a pretty capable box - claims 20
 ps one-shot resolution in TI mode), a Trimble Thunderbolt, the 10 MHz
 oscillator to be measured,  and a copy of Stable32. My first effort
 involved feeding the Trimble 10 MHz into the counter as its Ext Reference.
 I then fed the Trimble 1pps into the Ext Trigger input of the counter and
 fed the sinewave 10 MHz signal to be measured into Ch 1 of the counter. I
 then captured the frequency reading of the counter every second and
 stuffed
 those numbers into a file. I collected about 20 hours of frequency
 readings, but when I imported that into Stable32 and attempted to do an
 Allan Dev plot, it didn't look very good - specifically, the sigma numbers
 were in the region of 10e-2 to 10e-4.

 So, I grabbed another Thunderbolt and attempted to do the same measurement
 on it, figuring that everyone (but me) has taken data on a T'bolt, so I
 could just look on tvb's site or some such to find proper data on a Tbolt.
 Again, the plot didn't look like it should.

 Am I going to have to go to time interval measurements to do what I want?
 And does this mean I will have to square up my 10 MHz signal to have real
 edges?

 geo
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[time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

2011-12-15 Thread Bill Dailey

Wondering how people are getting labview.  Is there a hobbyist version that
isnt super high priced or a place to get a cheapo license?  How is it
done?  I obviously just want to play with it and iuse it for non-commercial
reasons and cant justify the full price feel free to email me offline
if there is a secret handshake.

Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent yet
figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?

-- 
Doc

Bill Dailey
KXØO
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Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

Actually I would like to know also.
I actually had a license for an older version.
Unfortunately I had a disk issue that blew it away.
Further though I am very good about documenting licenses somehow in this
case I can't find it.
Perfect.
Regards
Paul.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Bill Dailey docdai...@gmail.com wrote:

 Wondering how people are getting labview.  Is there a hobbyist version that
 isnt super high priced or a place to get a cheapo license?  How is it
 done?  I obviously just want to play with it and iuse it for non-commercial
 reasons and cant justify the full price feel free to email me offline
 if there is a secret handshake.

 Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent yet
 figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?

 --
 Doc

 Bill Dailey
 KXØO
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

2011-12-15 Thread shalimr9

I have not looked recently, but you can sometimes find older versions on eBay 
when you buy a GPIB card. 

My son's electronics circuit study book from last year came with a Labview CD 
and student license. You can buy the book on Amazon for $$90 (as of last year).
If anyone is interested, I will find out the ISBN.

Didier KO4BB

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-Original Message-
From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:16:33 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

Actually I would like to know also.
I actually had a license for an older version.
Unfortunately I had a disk issue that blew it away.
Further though I am very good about documenting licenses somehow in this
case I can't find it.
Perfect.
Regards
Paul.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Bill Dailey docdai...@gmail.com wrote:

 Wondering how people are getting labview.  Is there a hobbyist version that
 isnt super high priced or a place to get a cheapo license?  How is it
 done?  I obviously just want to play with it and iuse it for non-commercial
 reasons and cant justify the full price feel free to email me offline
 if there is a secret handshake.

 Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent yet
 figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?

 --
 Doc

 Bill Dailey
 KXØO
 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

Diddier thats interesting. $90 is not bad I wonder what the limitations are.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:26 AM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have not looked recently, but you can sometimes find older versions on
 eBay when you buy a GPIB card.

 My son's electronics circuit study book from last year came with a Labview
 CD and student license. You can buy the book on Amazon for $$90 (as of last
 year).
 If anyone is interested, I will find out the ISBN.

 Didier KO4BB

 Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

 -Original Message-
 From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com
 Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
 Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:16:33
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

 Actually I would like to know also.
 I actually had a license for an older version.
 Unfortunately I had a disk issue that blew it away.
 Further though I am very good about documenting licenses somehow in this
 case I can't find it.
 Perfect.
 Regards
 Paul.

 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Bill Dailey docdai...@gmail.com wrote:

  Wondering how people are getting labview.  Is there a hobbyist version
 that
  isnt super high priced or a place to get a cheapo license?  How is it
  done?  I obviously just want to play with it and iuse it for
 non-commercial
  reasons and cant justify the full price feel free to email me offline
  if there is a secret handshake.
 
  Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent yet
  figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?
 
  --
  Doc
 
  Bill Dailey
  KXØO
  ___
  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go to
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 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to
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 To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

actually there are two options.
No book $59 with book $119
But unclear about how we might be considered a student.
Regards
Paul.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:30 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Diddier thats interesting. $90 is not bad I wonder what the limitations
 are.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL


 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:26 AM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have not looked recently, but you can sometimes find older versions on
 eBay when you buy a GPIB card.

 My son's electronics circuit study book from last year came with a
 Labview CD and student license. You can buy the book on Amazon for $$90 (as
 of last year).
 If anyone is interested, I will find out the ISBN.

 Didier KO4BB

 Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

 -Original Message-
 From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com
 Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
 Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:16:33
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

 Actually I would like to know also.
 I actually had a license for an older version.
 Unfortunately I had a disk issue that blew it away.
 Further though I am very good about documenting licenses somehow in this
 case I can't find it.
 Perfect.
 Regards
 Paul.

 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Bill Dailey docdai...@gmail.com wrote:

  Wondering how people are getting labview.  Is there a hobbyist version
 that
  isnt super high priced or a place to get a cheapo license?  How is it
  done?  I obviously just want to play with it and iuse it for
 non-commercial
  reasons and cant justify the full price feel free to email me
 offline
  if there is a secret handshake.
 
  Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent yet
  figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?
 
  --
  Doc
 
  Bill Dailey
  KXØO
  ___
  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go to
  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
 
 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to
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 To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

Oh this gets even more interesting. Here is the link and it seems you as a
single person could get Labview for either 20 or 59
http://e5.onthehub.com/WebStore/ProductSearchOfferingList.aspx?ws=49c547ba-f56d-dd11-bb6c-0030485a6b08vsro=8srch=labviewJSEnabled=1

I may try ordering and to see what happens or how it checks that you are a
student.
Or I wonder if anyone understands this already.
regards
Paul.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:36 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

actually there are two options.
No book $59 with book $119
But unclear about how we might be considered a student.
Regards
Paul.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:30 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

Diddier thats interesting. $90 is not bad I wonder what the limitations
are.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:26 AM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:

I have not looked recently, but you can sometimes find older versions on
eBay when you buy a GPIB card.

My son's electronics circuit study book from last year came with a
Labview CD and student license. You can buy the book on Amazon for $$90 (as
of last year).
If anyone is interested, I will find out the ISBN.

Didier KO4BB

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-Original Message-
From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:16:33
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

Actually I would like to know also.
I actually had a license for an older version.
Unfortunately I had a disk issue that blew it away.
Further though I am very good about documenting licenses somehow in this
case I can't find it.
Perfect.
Regards
Paul.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Bill Dailey docdai...@gmail.com
wrote:

Wondering how people are getting labview. Is there a hobbyist version
that
isnt super high priced or a place to get a cheapo license? How is it
done? I obviously just want to play with it and iuse it for
non-commercial
reasons and cant justify the full price feel free to email me
offline
if there is a secret handshake.

Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent yet
figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?

--
Doc

Bill Dailey
KXØO
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Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

2011-12-15 Thread Collins, Graham


A Student of Time and it's measure?

Cheers, Graham

 

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of paul swed
Sent: December 15, 2011 10:36
To: shali...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

actually there are two options.
No book $59 with book $119
But unclear about how we might be considered a student.
Regards
Paul.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:30 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Diddier thats interesting. $90 is not bad I wonder what the limitations
 are.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL


 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:26 AM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have not looked recently, but you can sometimes find older versions on
 eBay when you buy a GPIB card.

 My son's electronics circuit study book from last year came with a
 Labview CD and student license. You can buy the book on Amazon for $$90 (as
 of last year).
 If anyone is interested, I will find out the ISBN.

 Didier KO4BB

 Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

 -Original Message-
 From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com
 Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
 Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:16:33
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

 Actually I would like to know also.
 I actually had a license for an older version.
 Unfortunately I had a disk issue that blew it away.
 Further though I am very good about documenting licenses somehow in this
 case I can't find it.
 Perfect.
 Regards
 Paul.

 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Bill Dailey docdai...@gmail.com wrote:

  Wondering how people are getting labview.  Is there a hobbyist version
 that
  isnt super high priced or a place to get a cheapo license?  How is it
  done?  I obviously just want to play with it and iuse it for
 non-commercial
  reasons and cant justify the full price feel free to email me
 offline
  if there is a secret handshake.
 
  Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent yet
  figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?
 
  --
  Doc
 
  Bill Dailey
  KXØO
  ___
  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go to
  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.



___
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

I believe the Student version is fully functional, except any printouts
are marked STUDENT VERSION.

However, you do need a school connection to buy it.

-John




 Diddier thats interesting. $90 is not bad I wonder what the limitations
 are.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:26 AM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have not looked recently, but you can sometimes find older versions on
 eBay when you buy a GPIB card.

 My son's electronics circuit study book from last year came with a
 Labview
 CD and student license. You can buy the book on Amazon for $$90 (as of
 last
 year).
 If anyone is interested, I will find out the ISBN.

 Didier KO4BB

 Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

 -Original Message-
 From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com
 Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
 Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:16:33
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

 Actually I would like to know also.
 I actually had a license for an older version.
 Unfortunately I had a disk issue that blew it away.
 Further though I am very good about documenting licenses somehow in this
 case I can't find it.
 Perfect.
 Regards
 Paul.

 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Bill Dailey docdai...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Wondering how people are getting labview.  Is there a hobbyist version
 that
  isnt super high priced or a place to get a cheapo license?  How is it
  done?  I obviously just want to play with it and iuse it for
 non-commercial
  reasons and cant justify the full price feel free to email me
 offline
  if there is a secret handshake.
 
  Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent yet
  figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?
 
  --
  Doc
 
  Bill Dailey
  KXØO
  ___
  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go to
  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.





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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

2011-12-15 Thread J. L. Trantham

I would like to know the details.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of shali...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:27 AM
To: Time-Nuts
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

I have not looked recently, but you can sometimes find older versions on
eBay when you buy a GPIB card. 

My son's electronics circuit study book from last year came with a Labview
CD and student license. You can buy the book on Amazon for $$90 (as of last
year). If anyone is interested, I will find out the ISBN.

Didier KO4BB

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-Original Message-
From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:16:33 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

Actually I would like to know also.
I actually had a license for an older version.
Unfortunately I had a disk issue that blew it away.
Further though I am very good about documenting licenses somehow in this
case I can't find it. Perfect. Regards Paul.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Bill Dailey docdai...@gmail.com wrote:

 Wondering how people are getting labview.  Is there a hobbyist version 
 that isnt super high priced or a place to get a cheapo license?  How 
 is it done?  I obviously just want to play with it and iuse it for 
 non-commercial reasons and cant justify the full price feel free 
 to email me offline if there is a secret handshake.

 Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent yet 
 figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?

 --
 Doc

 Bill Dailey
 KXØO
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to 
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
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To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.

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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

2011-12-15 Thread J. L. Trantham

I'm a student.  We're always students.

Just not paying tuition.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:36 AM
To: shali...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive


actually there are two options.
No book $59 with book $119
But unclear about how we might be considered a student.
Regards
Paul.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:30 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Diddier thats interesting. $90 is not bad I wonder what the 
 limitations are. Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL


 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:26 AM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have not looked recently, but you can sometimes find older versions 
 on eBay when you buy a GPIB card.

 My son's electronics circuit study book from last year came with a 
 Labview CD and student license. You can buy the book on Amazon for 
 $$90 (as of last year). If anyone is interested, I will find out the 
 ISBN.

 Didier KO4BB

 Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

 -Original Message-
 From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com
 Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
 Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:16:33
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

 Actually I would like to know also.
 I actually had a license for an older version.
 Unfortunately I had a disk issue that blew it away.
 Further though I am very good about documenting licenses somehow in 
 this case I can't find it. Perfect.
 Regards
 Paul.

 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Bill Dailey docdai...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

  Wondering how people are getting labview.  Is there a hobbyist 
  version
 that
  isnt super high priced or a place to get a cheapo license?  How is 
  it done?  I obviously just want to play with it and iuse it for
 non-commercial
  reasons and cant justify the full price feel free to email me
 offline
  if there is a secret handshake.
 
  Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent 
  yet figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?
 
  --
  Doc
 
  Bill Dailey
  KXØO
  ___
  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go to 
  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to 
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there. 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to 
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

2011-12-15 Thread Brent Gordon


At Amazon:

   http://www.amazon.com/LabVIEW-2009-Student-Robert-Bishop/dp/0132141299/
   ISBN-10: 0132141299
   ISBN-13: 978-0132141291

   The Student Edition is also compatible with all National Instruments
   data acquisition and instrument control hardware. Note: The LabVIEW
   2009 Student Edition is available to students, faculty, and staff
   for personal educational use only. It is not intended for research,
   institutional, or commercial use. For more information about these
   licensing options, please visit the National Instruments website at
   (http:www.ni.com/academic/).


This is LabVIEW 2009.  The current version is 2011.  You don't gain 
anything major (except maybe better Win 7 operation) with the newer 
version.  The biggest limitation of the academic version is that you 
can't build executable files.


Brent

On 12/15/2011 8:51 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:

I would like to know the details.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of shali...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:27 AM
To: Time-Nuts
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive


I have not looked recently, but you can sometimes find older versions on
eBay when you buy a GPIB card.

My son's electronics circuit study book from last year came with a Labview
CD and student license. You can buy the book on Amazon for $$90 (as of last
year). If anyone is interested, I will find out the ISBN.

Didier KO4BB

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-Original Message-
From: paul swedpaulsw...@gmail.com
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:16:33
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

Actually I would like to know also.
I actually had a license for an older version.
Unfortunately I had a disk issue that blew it away.
Further though I am very good about documenting licenses somehow in this
case I can't find it. Perfect. Regards Paul.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Bill Daileydocdai...@gmail.com  wrote:


Wondering how people are getting labview.  Is there a hobbyist version
that isnt super high priced or a place to get a cheapo license?  How
is it done?  I obviously just want to play with it and iuse it for
non-commercial reasons and cant justify the full price feel free
to email me offline if there is a secret handshake.

Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent yet
figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?

--
Doc

Bill Dailey
KXØO



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

2011-12-15 Thread Brent Gordon


Paul,

If it was a version prior to 8.x, you don't need a serial number or any 
kind of license key.  With 8.x and later, your serial number is 
validated through National Instruments' servers.  If you registered your 
software with NI, you should be able to get your serial number from them.


Also, with any version after 7.1, you can download it from NI's web site.

Brent

On 12/15/2011 8:16 AM, paul swed wrote:

Actually I would like to know also.
I actually had a license for an older version.
Unfortunately I had a disk issue that blew it away.
Further though I am very good about documenting licenses somehow in this
case I can't find it.
Perfect.
Regards
Paul.


___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

Well I did indeed try to see what would happen by ordering through the ehub
site.
Boy talk about 1989 connectivity. The sites so slow nothing ever happens
per page like 5 minutes.
I did see the amazon listing but thought that was just the book actually.
So not really sure what you are getting.
Regards
Paul

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Brent Gordon time-n...@adobe-labs.comwrote:

 At Amazon:

   http://www.amazon.com/LabVIEW-**2009-Student-Robert-Bishop/dp/**
 0132141299/http://www.amazon.com/LabVIEW-2009-Student-Robert-Bishop/dp/0132141299/
   ISBN-10: 0132141299
   ISBN-13: 978-0132141291

   The Student Edition is also compatible with all National Instruments
   data acquisition and instrument control hardware. Note: The LabVIEW
   2009 Student Edition is available to students, faculty, and staff
   for personal educational use only. It is not intended for research,
   institutional, or commercial use. For more information about these
   licensing options, please visit the National Instruments website at
   (http:www.ni.com/academic/).


 This is LabVIEW 2009.  The current version is 2011.  You don't gain
 anything major (except maybe better Win 7 operation) with the newer
 version.  The biggest limitation of the academic version is that you can't
 build executable files.

 Brent


 On 12/15/2011 8:51 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:

 I would like to know the details.

 Joe

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com 
 [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@**febo.comtime-nuts-boun...@febo.com]
 On
 Behalf Of shali...@gmail.com
 Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:27 AM
 To: Time-Nuts
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive


 I have not looked recently, but you can sometimes find older versions on
 eBay when you buy a GPIB card.

 My son's electronics circuit study book from last year came with a Labview
 CD and student license. You can buy the book on Amazon for $$90 (as of
 last
 year). If anyone is interested, I will find out the ISBN.

 Didier KO4BB

 Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

 -Original Message-
 From: paul swedpaulsw...@gmail.com
 Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
 Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:16:33
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com**
 Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

 Actually I would like to know also.
 I actually had a license for an older version.
 Unfortunately I had a disk issue that blew it away.
 Further though I am very good about documenting licenses somehow in this
 case I can't find it. Perfect. Regards Paul.

 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Bill Daileydocdai...@gmail.com  wrote:

  Wondering how people are getting labview.  Is there a hobbyist version
 that isnt super high priced or a place to get a cheapo license?  How
 is it done?  I obviously just want to play with it and iuse it for
 non-commercial reasons and cant justify the full price feel free
 to email me offline if there is a secret handshake.

 Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent yet
 figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?

 --
 Doc

 Bill Dailey
 KXØO


 __**_
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
 mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

Brent
Thanks for the insights. I know I validated to the server and think I
registered it was about 2 years ago. Perhaps thats why I don't have my
normal keys documentation!
Need to go hunting.
But even if I can't recover it certainly the sub $100 pricing if it can be
obtained is attractive and should work.
I don't think the fact that you can't make an executable is for me a big
deal at all.
Unless I am missing something major.
Thanks
Regards
Paul


On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:12 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Well I did indeed try to see what would happen by ordering through the
 ehub site.
 Boy talk about 1989 connectivity. The sites so slow nothing ever happens
 per page like 5 minutes.
 I did see the amazon listing but thought that was just the book actually.
 So not really sure what you are getting.
 Regards
 Paul


 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Brent Gordon 
 time-n...@adobe-labs.comwrote:

 At Amazon:

   http://www.amazon.com/LabVIEW-**2009-Student-Robert-Bishop/dp/**
 0132141299/http://www.amazon.com/LabVIEW-2009-Student-Robert-Bishop/dp/0132141299/
   ISBN-10: 0132141299
   ISBN-13: 978-0132141291

   The Student Edition is also compatible with all National Instruments
   data acquisition and instrument control hardware. Note: The LabVIEW
   2009 Student Edition is available to students, faculty, and staff
   for personal educational use only. It is not intended for research,
   institutional, or commercial use. For more information about these
   licensing options, please visit the National Instruments website at
   (http:www.ni.com/academic/).


 This is LabVIEW 2009.  The current version is 2011.  You don't gain
 anything major (except maybe better Win 7 operation) with the newer
 version.  The biggest limitation of the academic version is that you can't
 build executable files.

 Brent


 On 12/15/2011 8:51 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:

 I would like to know the details.

 Joe

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com 
 [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@**febo.comtime-nuts-boun...@febo.com]
 On
 Behalf Of shali...@gmail.com
 Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:27 AM
 To: Time-Nuts
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive


 I have not looked recently, but you can sometimes find older versions on
 eBay when you buy a GPIB card.

 My son's electronics circuit study book from last year came with a
 Labview
 CD and student license. You can buy the book on Amazon for $$90 (as of
 last
 year). If anyone is interested, I will find out the ISBN.

 Didier KO4BB

 Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

 -Original Message-
 From: paul swedpaulsw...@gmail.com
 Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
 Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:16:33
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com**
 Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

 Actually I would like to know also.
 I actually had a license for an older version.
 Unfortunately I had a disk issue that blew it away.
 Further though I am very good about documenting licenses somehow in this
 case I can't find it. Perfect. Regards Paul.

 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Bill Daileydocdai...@gmail.com
  wrote:

  Wondering how people are getting labview.  Is there a hobbyist version
 that isnt super high priced or a place to get a cheapo license?  How
 is it done?  I obviously just want to play with it and iuse it for
 non-commercial reasons and cant justify the full price feel free
 to email me offline if there is a secret handshake.

 Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent yet
 figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?

 --
 Doc

 Bill Dailey
 KXØO


 __**_
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
 mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.



___
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

2011-12-15 Thread Brent Gordon


From the NI web site (http://www.ni.com/labviewse/select.htm)

LabVIEW Student Edition Textbook Bundle

The LabVIEW 2009 Student Edition Textbook Bundle includes the LabVIEW 
Student Edition software and Dr. Robert H. Bishop's popular introductory 
textbook Learning with LabVIEW, published by Prentice Hall. The textbook 
bundle includes the following National Instruments software:


LabVIEW 2009 Student Edition for Windows 7/Vista/XP
LabVIEW 2009 Student Edition for Mac OS X 10.4.0 or later

Learn more about the LabVIEW 2009 Student Edition Textbook Bundle.

Note: The LabVIEW 2009 Student Edition Textbook Bundle, available from 
Prentice Hall, does not include all the advanced modules and toolkits 
included in the LabVIEW Student Edition Software Suite.


On 12/15/2011 9:12 AM, paul swed wrote:

Well I did indeed try to see what would happen by ordering through the ehub
site.
Boy talk about 1989 connectivity. The sites so slow nothing ever happens
per page like 5 minutes.
I did see the amazon listing but thought that was just the book actually.
So not really sure what you are getting.
Regards
Paul

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Brent Gordontime-n...@adobe-labs.comwrote:


At Amazon:

   http://www.amazon.com/LabVIEW-**2009-Student-Robert-Bishop/dp/**
0132141299/http://www.amazon.com/LabVIEW-2009-Student-Robert-Bishop/dp/0132141299/
   ISBN-10: 0132141299
   ISBN-13: 978-0132141291

   The Student Edition is also compatible with all National Instruments
   data acquisition and instrument control hardware. Note: The LabVIEW
   2009 Student Edition is available to students, faculty, and staff
   for personal educational use only. It is not intended for research,
   institutional, or commercial use. For more information about these
   licensing options, please visit the National Instruments website at
   (http:www.ni.com/academic/).


This is LabVIEW 2009.  The current version is 2011.  You don't gain
anything major (except maybe better Win 7 operation) with the newer
version.  The biggest limitation of the academic version is that you can't
build executable files.

Brent



___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

Yes, you're right: we are always students and there's always something to
learn here from timenuts not only about precise timefrequency.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Brent Gordon time-n...@adobe-labs.comwrote:

From the NI web site
(http://www.ni.com/labviewse/**select.htmhttp://www.ni.com/labviewse/select.htm
)

LabVIEW Student Edition Textbook Bundle

The LabVIEW 2009 Student Edition Textbook Bundle includes the LabVIEW
Student Edition software and Dr. Robert H. Bishop's popular introductory
textbook Learning with LabVIEW, published by Prentice Hall. The textbook
bundle includes the following National Instruments software:

LabVIEW 2009 Student Edition for Windows 7/Vista/XP
LabVIEW 2009 Student Edition for Mac OS X 10.4.0 or later

Learn more about the LabVIEW 2009 Student Edition Textbook Bundle.

Note: The LabVIEW 2009 Student Edition Textbook Bundle, available from
Prentice Hall, does not include all the advanced modules and toolkits
included in the LabVIEW Student Edition Software Suite.

On 12/15/2011 9:12 AM, paul swed wrote:

Well I did indeed try to see what would happen by ordering through the
ehub
site.
Boy talk about 1989 connectivity. The sites so slow nothing ever happens
per page like 5 minutes.
I did see the amazon listing but thought that was just the book actually.
So not really sure what you are getting.
Regards
Paul

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Brent
Gordontime-nuts@adobe-labs.**comtime-n...@adobe-labs.com
wrote:

At Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/LabVIEW-2009-Student-Robert-Bishop/**dp/**http://www.amazon.com/LabVIEW-**2009-Student-Robert-Bishop/dp/**
0132141299/http://www.amazon.**com/LabVIEW-2009-Student-**
Robert-Bishop/dp/0132141299/http://www.amazon.com/LabVIEW-2009-Student-Robert-Bishop/dp/0132141299/

ISBN-10: 0132141299
ISBN-13: 978-0132141291

The Student Edition is also compatible with all National Instruments
data acquisition and instrument control hardware. Note: The LabVIEW
2009 Student Edition is available to students, faculty, and staff
for personal educational use only. It is not intended for research,
institutional, or commercial use. For more information about these
licensing options, please visit the National Instruments website at
(http:www.ni.com/academic/).

This is LabVIEW 2009. The current version is 2011. You don't gain
anything major (except maybe better Win 7 operation) with the newer
version. The biggest limitation of the academic version is that you
can't
build executable files.

Brent

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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 89, Issue 51

2011-12-15 Thread Dan Kemppainen



On 12/14/2011 3:59 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:

It's not like metric is totally absent.  We drink 2 liter cokes and defend
ourselves with 9mm pistols.   Our cars use mostly metric parts.  Even ham
radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past bunch
around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands.


I agree with you, and funnily enough the rest of the NATO world uses 
7.62mm and 5.56mm rifles. (Both were originally based on standard inch 
sized rifle cartridges designed in the US)


The problem in converting to metric would require replacing a lot of 
tools. For example Mills, lathes, and other machining tools and 
measurement devices are expensive, and last for decades. I doubt many 
of the small tool shops around here could afford it.It's a great idea 
to standardize in theory, but in practice it becomes difficult. Maybe 
the whole world should standardize our language. We could all switch 
to Spanish or Latin or Chinese to speak with so we could all talk with 
each other. That would probably be more helpful to me on a daily 
basis, than having to switch measurement systems.


While we're on the subject, let me throw time back into the mix. We 
use months and days for scheduling projects. Meanwhile some of our 
counterparts use calendar weeks. This is much more difficult to 
convert between than inch and mm. When is CW 36???


There I threw some wood on the fire too!

Dan

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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 89, Issue 51

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Dan Kemppainen d...@irtelemetrics.com wrote:

 On 12/14/2011 3:59 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:

 It's not like metric is totally absent.  We drink 2 liter cokes and defend
 ourselves with 9mm pistols.   Our cars use mostly metric parts.  Even ham
 radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past bunch
 around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands.


 I agree with you, and funnily enough the rest of the NATO world uses 7.62mm
 and 5.56mm rifles. (Both were originally based on standard inch sized rifle
 cartridges designed in the US)

 The problem in converting to metric would require replacing a lot of tools.
 For example Mills, lathes, and other machining tools and measurement devices
 are expensive, and last for decades.

Can you point one even ONE machine shop in the US that can make metric
parts?  Those guys would have gone out of business years ago.   Also
how many are still using hand cranks and reading veneer scales?   Even
small one man ships are using CNC now.

The US is slowly converting.  It will take a long time.  Even now if
you go to Home Depot and look at plywood you see the better (non
construction) grades sold in even millimeters with the inches being
some odd number of 32nds approximation.   This will slowly creep into
more and more products.

So the debate is silly.  If the US should convert???  No.  the only
question is how fast are we converting and when will we be fully
converted.   Not even if this will happen, it will.




Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

2011-12-15 Thread Stanley

There is a student version that could save enough to pay the cost of the 
class with. Older versions appear on the auction site. I have found the user 
groups to be a great source of training and they are often located at an 
collage you may use to qualify for the student status.


Stanley

- Original Message - 
From: Bill Dailey docdai...@gmail.com

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 8:52 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive


Wondering how people are getting labview.  Is there a hobbyist version that
isnt super high priced or a place to get a cheapo license?  How is it
done?  I obviously just want to play with it and iuse it for non-commercial
reasons and cant justify the full price feel free to email me offline
if there is a secret handshake.

Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent yet
figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?

--
Doc

Bill Dailey
KXØO
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Re: [time-nuts] Why these Crystal Frequencies?

2011-12-15 Thread Rick Karlquist

16.384 MHz is of course 2^14 times 1 kHz.  This was used
as a clock for direct digital synthesizers in signal generators.
Most DDS's can't generate exact frequencies starting from a 10 MHz
clock.  There was  an Agilent arbitrary waveform generator that used this
as a clock because circular memory has a binary length.

The color burst frequency contains factors of 3,5,7,9, and 11, which are
important in terms of how early TV station hardware worked, using
multivibrator type frequency dividers.  11 is about the limit for those.

Rick N6RK

Brooke Clarke wrote:
 Hi Pete:

 Maybe you can shed some light on the common xtal frequencies table where
 there's no explanation given?
 http://www.prc68.com/I/pdf/Crystal_Freq.pdf
 An answer is not it's an even frequency or it's an even binary
 frequency. That's true for most of these and the
 factors are part of the table above.
 The question is why do they exist?
 such as:
 32.0 kHz
 40.0
 75.0
 76.79
 76.8
 76.81
 96.0
 3.072 MHz
 4.0
 4.096
 5.0
 6.0
 7.3729
 8.0
 8.192
 9.8304
 10.0
 11.0
 11.0592
 11.2896
 12.0
 12.288
 12.352
 13.5
 14.31818
 15.36
 16.0
 16.384
 17.734475
 18.0
 18.432
 19.6608
 19.44
 22.1184
 24.0
 24.567
 25.0
 25.175
 28.63636
 30.0
 1.4204058 GHz

 Have Fun,

 Brooke Clarke
 http://www.PRC68.com
 http://www.end2partygovernment.com/Brooke4Congress.html


 Peter Bell wrote:
 It's exactly 52 times the 1.2288MHz reference that IS95/CDMA2K uses -
 this may be a coincidence, but I somehow doubt it.

 Regards,

 Pete


 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:46 AM, Joe Leikhimjleik...@leikhim.com
 wrote:
 I have been watching this thread and may have missed something. My
 questions: What is the purpose of the outboard OCXO VECTRON 63.8976Mhz?
 What
 model number does this RB most closely resemble?

 --
 Joe Leikhim

 Leikhim and Associates
 Communications Consultants
 Oviedo, Florida

 www.Leikhim.com

 jleik...@leikhim.com

 407-982-0446

 Note to GMail Account users. Due to an abnormally high volume of spam
 originating from bogus GMail accounts, I have found it necessary to
 block
 certain GMail traffic. Please phone me if you believe your message was
 not
 received.


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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 89, Issue 51

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Chris Albertson
albertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote:

 Can you point one even ONE machine shop in the US that can make metric
 parts?  Those guys would have gone out of business years ago.   Also
 how many are still using hand cranks and reading veneer scales?   Even
 small one man ships are using CNC now.

Obvious typo:  Should read that can NOT make metric parts?The
inability to make hard metric parts means you can NOT sell to many
industries and the export market is also mostly closed to you.

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 89, Issue 51

2011-12-15 Thread Don Latham

What I find interesting is that the first push for standardization, at
least for machine threads, came from the manufacture of arms, the
Springfield Armory, at the time of the Civil war. At that time, threads
were a mixture of the then fledgling metric system (French) and a
conglomeration of American threads. Thread shapes were quite different
as well. The next big standardization came from- you got it- the
automotive industry (SAE is of course Society of Automotive Engineers),
and I guess, only a guess, that the reluctance to change to metric
really came from the automobile industry. At one time, the Volvo had
SAE, Metric, and Whitworth fasteners in it, and not too long ago at
that.
So, I think that manufacturing inertia rather than the housewife might
be to blame for the US still being SAE and all that implies. As bolts
go, so do the rest of the measurements.
Don


Chris Albertson
 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Dan Kemppainen d...@irtelemetrics.com
 wrote:

 On 12/14/2011 3:59 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:

 It's not like metric is totally absent.  We drink 2 liter cokes and
 defend
 ourselves with 9mm pistols.   Our cars use mostly metric parts.  Even
 ham
 radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past
 bunch
 around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands.


 I agree with you, and funnily enough the rest of the NATO world uses
 7.62mm
 and 5.56mm rifles. (Both were originally based on standard inch sized
 rifle
 cartridges designed in the US)

 The problem in converting to metric would require replacing a lot of
 tools.
 For example Mills, lathes, and other machining tools and measurement
 devices
 are expensive, and last for decades.

 Can you point one even ONE machine shop in the US that can make metric
 parts?  Those guys would have gone out of business years ago.   Also
 how many are still using hand cranks and reading veneer scales?   Even
 small one man ships are using CNC now.

 The US is slowly converting.  It will take a long time.  Even now if
 you go to Home Depot and look at plywood you see the better (non
 construction) grades sold in even millimeters with the inches being
 some odd number of 32nds approximation.   This will slowly creep into
 more and more products.

 So the debate is silly.  If the US should convert???  No.  the only
 question is how fast are we converting and when will we be fully
 converted.   Not even if this will happen, it will.




 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California

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-- 
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



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Re: [time-nuts] Why these Crystal Frequencies?

2011-12-15 Thread Magnus Danielson


On 12/15/2011 04:13 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi Pete:

Maybe you can shed some light on the common xtal frequencies table where
there's no explanation given?
http://www.prc68.com/I/pdf/Crystal_Freq.pdf
An answer is not it's an even frequency or it's an even binary
frequency. That's true for most of these and the factors are part of the
table above.
The question is why do they exist?
such as:



12.288


AES/EBU and S/P-DIF baud-rate for 96 kHz sampling-rate

128 x 96 kHz = 12,288 MHz

Also in wide use for audio-boards.

6,144 MHZ
24,576 MHz

is related multiples for 48 kHz and 192 kHz.


19.44


SDH/SONET STM-1 byte-rate

270*9*8 kHz = 19,44 MHz

51,84 MHz
155,52 MHz
311,04 MHz
622,08 MHz

are related multiples that occurs regularly

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Labview and searching archive

2011-12-15 Thread Hal Murray


 Also, periodically I would liek to search the archives but havent yet
 figured out how to do it... can anyone help with that?

If you look at the hidden headers of any message from time-nuts, you will see 
this line:

List-archive: http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts

The time-nuts archives are open(*).  google keeps track of them.  So just 
adding time-nuts to a google search will often find what you want quicker 
than you can find it by poking around in the archives.



*)  Some mailing lists require login to get at their archives.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Ebay FE-5680A Rb

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote:

 albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
 The prime factors are 13, 3, 2, 2, 2, and lots more 2s

 There are also a couple of 5s in there.

 [~]$ factor 63897600
 63897600: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 5 5 13

Not fair.  You added two zeros on the end and then got to add two more
2s and 5s.  How about this:

 638976: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 5 5 5 5
5 5 5 5 13



 There really is no reason to clock a DDS with a nice even number frequency.
 OK the even freq. makes the math easier but it's all done in software so
 easier does not matter.

 I'll bet there are some second order considerations in there.  How about
 spurs?  If your starting frequency is nice relative to your target
 frequency

What is the target frequency?   If you are building a radio or a
signal generator you will tune around all over the band.


Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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[time-nuts] FE-5680A Rb Questions

2011-12-15 Thread Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R


With mine due to arrive soon, I have some questions.

1.  Will it work on 12 volts instead of 15?

2. Is the serial i/o really RS-232 or something else

3.  Is there a command list?

4.  Which pinout list is correct?

--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
  Omen Technology Inc  The High Reliability Software
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430


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Re: [time-nuts] Why these Crystal Frequencies?

2011-12-15 Thread Magnus Danielson


On 12/15/2011 11:54 AM, Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH) wrote:

13.5 and 27 MHz are usually associated with digital video. SD video with 720 x 
576 has a pixel clock of 13.5 MHz, and the corresponding SDI bit clock is 270 
MHz.


18 MHz is another digital video frequency.

13,5 MHz is the sampling frequency for luminance samples for SD-SDI 3:4 
video, ITU-R (formerly CCIR) BT.601. The chrominance difference samples 
goes at 6,75 MHz sampling frequency. These samples are 10 bit, so you 
get a 27 MHz rate of 10 bit samples or 270 Mb/s rate of the full SD-SDI 
signal (then only called SDI signal).


18 MHz then relates to that in the 16:9 format variant producing 
according to the same logic a 360 Mb/s rate SDI signal, but it's 
essentially dead.


18 MHz is also used in analog video synthesis as it relates well to many 
signals.


27 MHz is a magic frequency as both PAL and NTSC relates in an easy 
relationship to it.


PAL:
25   * 625 * 432 * 4 = 27 MHz

NTSC:
30/1.001 * 525 * 429 * 4 = 27 MHz

The factor of 4 is for the 4 samples of luminance and chrominance 
differences.


Related frequencies for HD-SDI is:

European
25 * 1125 * 1320 * 4 = 148,5 MHz = 11/2 * 27 MHz

US
30/1.001 * 1125 * 1100 * 4 = 148,35 MHz = 148,5/1.001 MHz = 11/2.002 * 
27 MHz


(Let me tell you that I hate the 1.001 factor for HD-SDI rates)

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Why these Crystal Frequencies?

2011-12-15 Thread Eric Garner

Brooke,

25 MHz (and to a lesser extent 50 MHz) is used to clock Ethernet PHYs.
It's multiplied up to the various clocks needed internally
(125,250,625 MHz etc.)

-Eric

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 7:13 PM, Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net wrote:
 Hi Pete:

 Maybe you can shed some light on the common xtal frequencies table where
 there's no explanation given?
 http://www.prc68.com/I/pdf/Crystal_Freq.pdf
 An answer is not it's an even frequency or it's an even binary frequency.
 That's true for most of these and the factors are part of the table above.
 The question is why do they exist?
 such as:
 32.0 kHz
 40.0
 75.0
 76.79
 76.8
 76.81
 96.0
 3.072 MHz
 4.0
 4.096
 5.0
 6.0
 7.3729
 8.0
 8.192
 9.8304
 10.0
 11.0
 11.0592
 11.2896
 12.0
 12.288
 12.352
 13.5
 14.31818
 15.36
 16.0
 16.384
 17.734475
 18.0
 18.432
 19.6608
 19.44
 22.1184
 24.0
 24.567
 25.0
 25.175
 28.63636
 30.0
 1.4204058 GHz

 Have Fun,

 Brooke Clarke
 http://www.PRC68.com
 http://www.end2partygovernment.com/Brooke4Congress.html


 Peter Bell wrote:

 It's exactly 52 times the 1.2288MHz reference that IS95/CDMA2K uses -
 this may be a coincidence, but I somehow doubt it.

 Regards,

 Pete


 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:46 AM, Joe Leikhimjleik...@leikhim.com  wrote:

 I have been watching this thread and may have missed something. My
 questions: What is the purpose of the outboard OCXO VECTRON 63.8976Mhz?
 What
 model number does this RB most closely resemble?

 --
 Joe Leikhim

 Leikhim and Associates
 Communications Consultants
 Oviedo, Florida

 www.Leikhim.com

 jleik...@leikhim.com

 407-982-0446

 Note to GMail Account users. Due to an abnormally high volume of spam
 originating from bogus GMail accounts, I have found it necessary to block
 certain GMail traffic. Please phone me if you believe your message was
 not
 received.


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-- 
--Eric
_
Eric Garner

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Re: [time-nuts] Why these Crystal Frequencies?

2011-12-15 Thread Alan Melia

and the one right at the bottom 1.4204058 GHz  is the atomic hydrogen
rest frequency to those of us with a vague interest in Radio astronomy
:-))

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:13 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Why these Crystal Frequencies?

 Hi Pete:

 Maybe you can shed some light on the common xtal frequencies table where
there's no explanation given?
 http://www.prc68.com/I/pdf/Crystal_Freq.pdf
 An answer is not it's an even frequency or it's an even binary
frequency. That's true for most of these and the
 factors are part of the table above.
 The question is why do they exist?
 such as:
 32.0 kHz
 40.0
 75.0
 76.79
 76.8
 76.81
 96.0
 3.072 MHz
 4.0
 4.096
 5.0
 6.0
 7.3729
 8.0
 8.192
 9.8304
 10.0
 11.0
 11.0592
 11.2896
 12.0
 12.288
 12.352
 13.5
 14.31818
 15.36
 16.0
 16.384
 17.734475
 18.0
 18.432
 19.6608
 19.44
 22.1184
 24.0
 24.567
 25.0
 25.175
 28.63636
 30.0
 1.4204058 GHz

 Have Fun,

 Brooke Clarke
 http://www.PRC68.com
 http://www.end2partygovernment.com/Brooke4Congress.html

 Peter Bell wrote:
  It's exactly 52 times the 1.2288MHz reference that IS95/CDMA2K uses -
  this may be a coincidence, but I somehow doubt it.

  Regards,

  Pete

  On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:46 AM, Joe Leikhimjleik...@leikhim.com
wrote:
  I have been watching this thread and may have missed something. My
  questions: What is the purpose of the outboard OCXO VECTRON 63.8976Mhz?
What
  model number does this RB most closely resemble?

  --
  Joe Leikhim

  Leikhim and Associates
  Communications Consultants
  Oviedo, Florida

  www.Leikhim.com

  jleik...@leikhim.com

  407-982-0446

  Note to GMail Account users. Due to an abnormally high volume of spam
  originating from bogus GMail accounts, I have found it necessary to
block
  certain GMail traffic. Please phone me if you believe your message was
not
  received.

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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Rb Questions

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R
c...@omen.com wrote:

 1.  Will it work on 12 volts instead of 15?
My bet is no as there is an internal regulator that likely needs headroom

 2. Is the serial i/o really RS-232 or something else
There is a Max rs232 level converter inside so I assume real rs232,
not TTL levels

 3.  Is there a command list?
There is a book.  Google   TECHNICAL MANUAL TM0110-2



Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 89, Issue 51

The laboratory where i work obviously reports results using the SI metric
system. There is one exception though, and that is the energy side,
specifically calorimetry. At first glance the calorimeters appear to
normal(SI, that is). They take mass in terms of the gram, measure
temperature by degree Celsius, and internal calibration is stored as
calories.

The exception is the result is reported in BTU/ pound!  How's that for
mixing systems?

On the electronics side of things it's even worse. Technical documents
mixing and matching between systems. It's very common to see specifications
cited partially in MKS and CGS with no correction terms.
FYI:
MKS = Milimeter Kilogram Second
CGS = Centimeter Gram Second

I've seen two other systems, but their names are eluding me at this time.
Also, I've come across bolts that are not SI, nor SAE. I believe they are
considered a british thread but i'm not certain.

Steve

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 What I find interesting is that the first push for standardization, at
 least for machine threads, came from the manufacture of arms, the
 Springfield Armory, at the time of the Civil war. At that time, threads
 were a mixture of the then fledgling metric system (French) and a
 conglomeration of American threads. Thread shapes were quite different
 as well. The next big standardization came from- you got it- the
 automotive industry (SAE is of course Society of Automotive Engineers),
 and I guess, only a guess, that the reluctance to change to metric
 really came from the automobile industry. At one time, the Volvo had
 SAE, Metric, and Whitworth fasteners in it, and not too long ago at
 that.
 So, I think that manufacturing inertia rather than the housewife might
 be to blame for the US still being SAE and all that implies. As bolts
 go, so do the rest of the measurements.
 Don


 Chris Albertson
  On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Dan Kemppainen d...@irtelemetrics.com
  wrote:
 
  On 12/14/2011 3:59 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
 
  It's not like metric is totally absent.  We drink 2 liter cokes and
  defend
  ourselves with 9mm pistols.   Our cars use mostly metric parts.  Even
  ham
  radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past
  bunch
  around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands.
 
 
  I agree with you, and funnily enough the rest of the NATO world uses
  7.62mm
  and 5.56mm rifles. (Both were originally based on standard inch sized
  rifle
  cartridges designed in the US)
 
  The problem in converting to metric would require replacing a lot of
  tools.
  For example Mills, lathes, and other machining tools and measurement
  devices
  are expensive, and last for decades.
 
  Can you point one even ONE machine shop in the US that can make metric
  parts?  Those guys would have gone out of business years ago.   Also
  how many are still using hand cranks and reading veneer scales?   Even
  small one man ships are using CNC now.
 
  The US is slowly converting.  It will take a long time.  Even now if
  you go to Home Depot and look at plywood you see the better (non
  construction) grades sold in even millimeters with the inches being
  some odd number of 32nds approximation.   This will slowly creep into
  more and more products.
 
  So the debate is silly.  If the US should convert???  No.  the only
  question is how fast are we converting and when will we be fully
  converted.   Not even if this will happen, it will.
 
 
 
 
  Chris Albertson
  Redondo Beach, California
 
  ___
  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go to
  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
 
 


 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com



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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 89, Issue 51

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Steve . iteratio...@gmail.com wrote:

 The laboratory where i work obviously reports results using the SI metric
 system. There is one exception though, and that is the energy side,
 specifically calorimetry. At first glance the calorimeters appear to
 normal(SI, that is). They take mass in terms of the gram, measure
 temperature by degree Celsius, and internal calibration is stored as
 calories.

 The exception is the result is reported in BTU/ pound!  How's that for
 mixing systems?

 On the electronics side of things it's even worse. Technical documents
 mixing and matching between systems. It's very common to see specifications
 cited partially in MKS and CGS with no correction terms.
 FYI:

Correction

 MKS = Meter Kilogram Second
 CGS = Centimeter Gram Second

 I've seen two other systems, but their names are eluding me at this time.
 Also, I've come across bolts that are not SI, nor SAE. I believe they are
 considered a british thread but i'm not certain.

 Steve

 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 What I find interesting is that the first push for standardization, at
 least for machine threads, came from the manufacture of arms, the
 Springfield Armory, at the time of the Civil war. At that time, threads
 were a mixture of the then fledgling metric system (French) and a
 conglomeration of American threads. Thread shapes were quite different
 as well. The next big standardization came from- you got it- the
 automotive industry (SAE is of course Society of Automotive Engineers),
 and I guess, only a guess, that the reluctance to change to metric
 really came from the automobile industry. At one time, the Volvo had
 SAE, Metric, and Whitworth fasteners in it, and not too long ago at
 that.
 So, I think that manufacturing inertia rather than the housewife might
 be to blame for the US still being SAE and all that implies. As bolts
 go, so do the rest of the measurements.
 Don


 Chris Albertson
  On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Dan Kemppainen d...@irtelemetrics.com
  wrote:
 
  On 12/14/2011 3:59 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
 
  It's not like metric is totally absent.  We drink 2 liter cokes and
  defend
  ourselves with 9mm pistols.   Our cars use mostly metric parts.  Even
  ham
  radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past
  bunch
  around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands.
 
 
  I agree with you, and funnily enough the rest of the NATO world uses
  7.62mm
  and 5.56mm rifles. (Both were originally based on standard inch sized
  rifle
  cartridges designed in the US)
 
  The problem in converting to metric would require replacing a lot of
  tools.
  For example Mills, lathes, and other machining tools and measurement
  devices
  are expensive, and last for decades.
 
  Can you point one even ONE machine shop in the US that can make metric
  parts?  Those guys would have gone out of business years ago.   Also
  how many are still using hand cranks and reading veneer scales?   Even
  small one man ships are using CNC now.
 
  The US is slowly converting.  It will take a long time.  Even now if
  you go to Home Depot and look at plywood you see the better (non
  construction) grades sold in even millimeters with the inches being
  some odd number of 32nds approximation.   This will slowly creep into
  more and more products.
 
  So the debate is silly.  If the US should convert???  No.  the only
  question is how fast are we converting and when will we be fully
  converted.   Not even if this will happen, it will.
 
 
 
 
  Chris Albertson
  Redondo Beach, California
 
  ___
  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go to
  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
 
 


 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com



 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 89, Issue 51

2011-12-15 Thread bownes

Those bolts would be whitworth. 



On Dec 15, 2011, at 14:43, Steve . iteratio...@gmail.com wrote:

 The laboratory where i work obviously reports results using the SI metric
 system. There is one exception though, and that is the energy side,
 specifically calorimetry. At first glance the calorimeters appear to
 normal(SI, that is). They take mass in terms of the gram, measure
 temperature by degree Celsius, and internal calibration is stored as
 calories.
 
 The exception is the result is reported in BTU/ pound!  How's that for
 mixing systems?
 
 On the electronics side of things it's even worse. Technical documents
 mixing and matching between systems. It's very common to see specifications
 cited partially in MKS and CGS with no correction terms.
 FYI:
 MKS = Milimeter Kilogram Second
 CGS = Centimeter Gram Second
 
 I've seen two other systems, but their names are eluding me at this time.
 Also, I've come across bolts that are not SI, nor SAE. I believe they are
 considered a british thread but i'm not certain.
 
 Steve
 
 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:
 
 What I find interesting is that the first push for standardization, at
 least for machine threads, came from the manufacture of arms, the
 Springfield Armory, at the time of the Civil war. At that time, threads
 were a mixture of the then fledgling metric system (French) and a
 conglomeration of American threads. Thread shapes were quite different
 as well. The next big standardization came from- you got it- the
 automotive industry (SAE is of course Society of Automotive Engineers),
 and I guess, only a guess, that the reluctance to change to metric
 really came from the automobile industry. At one time, the Volvo had
 SAE, Metric, and Whitworth fasteners in it, and not too long ago at
 that.
 So, I think that manufacturing inertia rather than the housewife might
 be to blame for the US still being SAE and all that implies. As bolts
 go, so do the rest of the measurements.
 Don
 
 
 Chris Albertson
 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Dan Kemppainen d...@irtelemetrics.com
 wrote:
 
 On 12/14/2011 3:59 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
 
 It's not like metric is totally absent.  We drink 2 liter cokes and
 defend
 ourselves with 9mm pistols.   Our cars use mostly metric parts.  Even
 ham
 radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past
 bunch
 around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands.
 
 
 I agree with you, and funnily enough the rest of the NATO world uses
 7.62mm
 and 5.56mm rifles. (Both were originally based on standard inch sized
 rifle
 cartridges designed in the US)
 
 The problem in converting to metric would require replacing a lot of
 tools.
 For example Mills, lathes, and other machining tools and measurement
 devices
 are expensive, and last for decades.
 
 Can you point one even ONE machine shop in the US that can make metric
 parts?  Those guys would have gone out of business years ago.   Also
 how many are still using hand cranks and reading veneer scales?   Even
 small one man ships are using CNC now.
 
 The US is slowly converting.  It will take a long time.  Even now if
 you go to Home Depot and look at plywood you see the better (non
 construction) grades sold in even millimeters with the inches being
 some odd number of 32nds approximation.   This will slowly creep into
 more and more products.
 
 So the debate is silly.  If the US should convert???  No.  the only
 question is how fast are we converting and when will we be fully
 converted.   Not even if this will happen, it will.
 
 
 
 
 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
 
 
 
 
 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell
 
 
 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com
 
 
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
 
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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 89, Issue 51

2011-12-15 Thread John Lofgren

There's a system that the motorcycle guys call the Whitworth Inch, but I think 
may be more correctly called Whitworth Measure.  It's an old British system 
that was used on their motorcycles and possibly cars, too.  There's a whole 
subculture of people trading in Whitworth tools for BSA and Norton owners.

-John


I've seen two other systems, but their names are eluding me at this time.
Also, I've come across bolts that are not SI, nor SAE. I believe they are
considered a british thread but i'm not certain.

Steve


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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Rb Questions

2011-12-15 Thread GandalfG8

In a message dated 15/12/2011 19:41:58 GMT Standard Time,  
albertson.ch...@gmail.com writes:

On Thu,  Dec 15, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R
c...@omen.com  wrote:

 1.  Will it work on 12 volts instead of 15?
My bet  is no as there is an internal regulator that likely needs  
headroom
-
I would assume no too, for the same reason, and don't forget that the  
version in question also needs 5 volts on pin 4.
No reason why that shouldn't be provided from a regulator via the 15 volt  
line though
--



 2. Is the serial i/o really RS-232 or something  else
There is a Max rs232 level converter inside so I assume real  rs232,
not TTL levels



 3.  Is there a command list?
There is a  book.  Google   TECHNICAL MANUAL TM0110-2
-
Real RS232, and a PC port will drive it. It just needs data in and out plus 
 ground.
 
Information in the manual that Chris highlights above, and plenty in the  
list archives, including a reasonably detailed get you going post from me  
recently.
 
regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
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Re: [time-nuts] Why these Crystal Frequencies?

2011-12-15 Thread Brooke Clarke


Hi Azelio:

Sorry, a mistake.

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/Brooke4Congress.html


Azelio Boriani wrote:

SD-SDI 270MHz, then there is the HD-SDI.
Brooke, the 77.503KHz you mention for the DCF77: are you sure the IF is
3KHz? 77.503KHz is 77.5KHz + 3Hz...

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH)
stefan.heinzm...@alcnetworx.de  wrote:


13.5 and 27 MHz are usually associated with digital video. SD video with
720 x 576 has a pixel clock of 13.5 MHz, and the corresponding SDI bit
clock is 270 MHz.

Cheers
Stefan

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] Im
Auftrag von Brooke Clarke
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. Dezember 2011 04:13
An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Betreff: [time-nuts] Why these Crystal Frequencies?

Hi Pete:

Maybe you can shed some light on the common xtal frequencies table where
there's no explanation given?
http://www.prc68.com/I/pdf/Crystal_Freq.pdf
An answer is not it's an even frequency or it's an even binary
frequency. That's true for most of these and the factors are part of the
table above.
The question is why do they exist?
such as:
32.0 kHz
40.0
75.0
76.79
76.8
76.81
96.0
3.072 MHz
4.0
4.096
5.0
6.0
7.3729
8.0
8.192
9.8304
10.0
11.0
11.0592
11.2896
12.0
12.288
12.352
13.5
14.31818
15.36
16.0
16.384
17.734475
18.0
18.432
19.6608
19.44
22.1184
24.0
24.567
25.0
25.175
28.63636
30.0
1.4204058 GHz

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/Brooke4Congress.html


Peter Bell wrote:

It's exactly 52 times the 1.2288MHz reference that IS95/CDMA2K uses -
this may be a coincidence, but I somehow doubt it.

Regards,

Pete


On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:46 AM, Joe Leikhimjleik...@leikhim.com

  wrote:

I have been watching this thread and may have missed something. My
questions: What is the purpose of the outboard OCXO VECTRON
63.8976Mhz? What model number does this RB most closely resemble?

--
Joe Leikhim

Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida

www.Leikhim.com

jleik...@leikhim.com

407-982-0446

Note to GMail Account users. Due to an abnormally high volume of spam
originating from bogus GMail accounts, I have found it necessary to
block certain GMail traffic. Please phone me if you believe your
message was not received.


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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 89, Issue 51

2011-12-15 Thread Don Latham

The British Whitworth is a 55 degree thread instead of the 60 degree
SAE. BTU is a British Thermal Unit, hence BTU/lb. MKS is Meter Kilogram
Second, one of the precoursors to thee SI system.

Steve .
 The laboratory where i work obviously reports results using the SI
 metric
 system. There is one exception though, and that is the energy side,
 specifically calorimetry. At first glance the calorimeters appear to
 normal(SI, that is). They take mass in terms of the gram, measure
 temperature by degree Celsius, and internal calibration is stored as
 calories.

 The exception is the result is reported in BTU/ pound!  How's that for
 mixing systems?

 On the electronics side of things it's even worse. Technical documents
 mixing and matching between systems. It's very common to see
 specifications
 cited partially in MKS and CGS with no correction terms.
 FYI:
 MKS = Milimeter Kilogram Second
 CGS = Centimeter Gram Second

 I've seen two other systems, but their names are eluding me at this
 time.
 Also, I've come across bolts that are not SI, nor SAE. I believe they
 are
 considered a british thread but i'm not certain.

 Steve

 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 What I find interesting is that the first push for standardization, at
 least for machine threads, came from the manufacture of arms, the
 Springfield Armory, at the time of the Civil war. At that time,
 threads
 were a mixture of the then fledgling metric system (French) and a
 conglomeration of American threads. Thread shapes were quite different
 as well. The next big standardization came from- you got it- the
 automotive industry (SAE is of course Society of Automotive
 Engineers),
 and I guess, only a guess, that the reluctance to change to metric
 really came from the automobile industry. At one time, the Volvo had
 SAE, Metric, and Whitworth fasteners in it, and not too long ago at
 that.
 So, I think that manufacturing inertia rather than the housewife might
 be to blame for the US still being SAE and all that implies. As bolts
 go, so do the rest of the measurements.
 Don


 Chris Albertson
  On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Dan Kemppainen
 d...@irtelemetrics.com
  wrote:
 
  On 12/14/2011 3:59 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
 
  It's not like metric is totally absent.  We drink 2 liter cokes
 and
  defend
  ourselves with 9mm pistols.   Our cars use mostly metric parts.
 Even
  ham
  radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past
  bunch
  around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands.
 
 
  I agree with you, and funnily enough the rest of the NATO world
 uses
  7.62mm
  and 5.56mm rifles. (Both were originally based on standard inch
 sized
  rifle
  cartridges designed in the US)
 
  The problem in converting to metric would require replacing a lot
 of
  tools.
  For example Mills, lathes, and other machining tools and
 measurement
  devices
  are expensive, and last for decades.
 
  Can you point one even ONE machine shop in the US that can make
 metric
  parts?  Those guys would have gone out of business years ago.   Also
  how many are still using hand cranks and reading veneer scales?
 Even
  small one man ships are using CNC now.
 
  The US is slowly converting.  It will take a long time.  Even now if
  you go to Home Depot and look at plywood you see the better (non
  construction) grades sold in even millimeters with the inches being
  some odd number of 32nds approximation.   This will slowly creep
 into
  more and more products.
 
  So the debate is silly.  If the US should convert???  No.  the only
  question is how fast are we converting and when will we be fully
  converted.   Not even if this will happen, it will.
 
 
 
 
  Chris Albertson
  Redondo Beach, California
 
  ___
  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go to
  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
 
 


 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com



 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to
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 To unsubscribe, go to
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-- 
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is,

Re: [time-nuts] metric / English

2011-12-15 Thread Brooke Clarke

Hi Chris:

Yes. In hospitals they are measuring your height in feet and inches, but your weight is in kg (6' 1 120 kg). Sort of
like tire sizes which use inches for the wheel diameter and mm for the section width (P215/65R15 - 215mm section width,
15 rim diameter).

Even more interesting than the metric/English idea is that my local shop (all CNC) has a no extra cost tolerance that's
ten times tighter than the no extra charge tolerance (+/-500 Millionths) an experienced machinist can hold (+/-5 mils)
and they have coordinate measuring equipment to back up the much tighter tolerances you can get for the extra charge.

A related story is that back in the 1960s I was designing microwave parts, many of which were made on a lathe. There
was a local shop that had chucker lathes (our company shop also had one) but this local shop would always come in below
the in house and competitive bids. These all used 5C collets.

http://www.prc68.com/I/Lathe.shtml
http://www.prc68.com/I/DrillPress.shtml#5C
It turned out the the low bid shop had a screw machine in the back room that was kept a secret for maybe a year or two.
The chuckers were really not being used to make parts. But now screw machines have been replaced by fancier CNC
machines like the 12 Axis CNC Mill Turn Centers.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/Brooke4Congress.html

Chris Albertson wrote:

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Dan Kemppainend...@irtelemetrics.com wrote:

On 12/14/2011 3:59 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:

It's not like metric is totally absent. We drink 2 liter cokes and defend
ourselves with 9mm pistols. Our cars use mostly metric parts. Even ham
radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past bunch
around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands.

I agree with you, and funnily enough the rest of the NATO world uses 7.62mm
and 5.56mm rifles. (Both were originally based on standard inch sized rifle
cartridges designed in the US)

The problem in converting to metric would require replacing a lot of tools.
For example Mills, lathes, and other machining tools and measurement devices
are expensive, and last for decades.

Can you point one even ONE machine shop in the US that can make metric
parts? Those guys would have gone out of business years ago. Also
how many are still using hand cranks and reading veneer scales? Even
small one man ships are using CNC now.

The US is slowly converting. It will take a long time. Even now if
you go to Home Depot and look at plywood you see the better (non
construction) grades sold in even millimeters with the inches being
some odd number of 32nds approximation. This will slowly creep into
more and more products.

So the debate is silly. If the US should convert??? No. the only
question is how fast are we converting and when will we be fully
converted. Not even if this will happen, it will.

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Ebay FE-5680A Rb

2011-12-15 Thread Hal Murray


 [~]$ factor 63897600
 63897600: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 5 5 13

 Not fair.  You added two zeros on the end and then got to add two more 2s
 and 5s.

I converted 63.8976 MHz to Hz.


 What is the target frequency?   If you are building a radio or a signal
 generator you will tune around all over the band. 

There are two ideas tangled up in here.  I missed one the last try.  Sorry 
for the confusion.

Think of a DDS as a N bit register R, and a constant K.
Each clock cycle, R = R+K
The register has high bits and low bits.  The high bits feed the ROM.

The output frequency is
  Out = In * K/2^N

The first quirk is that if the input frequency is not good, you can't get 
an exact hit on the output frequency.  Usually, N is big enough so that the 
nearest available frequency is good enough.

For example, suppose N is 20, your input frequency is 10 MHz, and you want 1 
KHz out.
  A K of 104 produces 991.821 Hz.
  A K of 105 produces 1001.358 Hz.

If your input frequency is 16.384 MHz, a K of 64 produces 1000.000 Hz.


The other quirk is spurs.  The spurs will be closer in if you need a bigger 
N.  In that context, the bottom 0s of K effectively make N smaller.  (I don't 
have any good examples.)

If your application is tuning a general purpose radio, the input frequency 
probably doesn't matter much.  What do radios do about spurs?

If your application is a specific target frequency, a good input frequency 
will give a cleaner output frequency.


One of these days, when I run out of other things to play with, I want to 
build a DDS in a FPGA.  The idea is to do decimal addition rather than 
binary.  That will turn the 10 MHz from a GPSDO into a good frequency for 
an audio signal generator.   It will hit any integral Hz exactly.  (Well, 
this is time-nuts so it's only as close as the accuracy of the input signal.)


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




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[time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

Iran hijacked US drone, claims Iranian engineer Tells Christian Science
Monitor that CIA's spy aircraft was 'spoofed' into landing in enemy
territory instead of its home base in Afghanistan
Iran guided the CIA's lost stealth drone to an intact landing inside
hostile territory by exploiting a navigational weakness long-known to the
US military, according to an Iranian engineer now working on the captured
drone's systems inside Iran.

Iranian electronic warfare specialists were able to cut off communications
links of the American bat-wing RQ-170 Sentinel, says the engineer, who
works for one of many Iranian military and civilian teams currently trying
to unravel the drones stealth and intelligence secrets, and who could not
be named for his safety.

Using knowledge gleaned from previous downed American drones and a
technique proudly claimed by Iranian commanders in September, the Iranian
specialists then reconfigured the drone's GPS coordinates to make it land
in Iran at what the drone thought was its actual home base in Afghanistan.

The GPS navigation is the weakest point, the Iranian engineer told the
Monitor, giving the most detailed description yet published of Iran's
electronic ambush of the highly classified US drone. By putting noise
[jamming] on the communications, you force the bird into autopilot. This is
where the bird loses its brain.

The spoofing technique that the Iranians used which took into account
precise landing altitudes, as well as latitudinal and longitudinal data
made the drone land on its own where we wanted it to, without having to
crack the remote-control signals and communications from the US control
center, says the engineer.

The revelations about Iran's apparent electronic prowess come as the US,
Israel, and some European nations appear to be engaged in an ever-widening
covert war with Iran, which has seen assassinations of Iranian nuclear
scientists, explosions at Iran's missile and industrial facilities, and the
Stuxnet computer virus that set back Irans nuclear program.

Now this engineers account of how Iran took over one of Americas most
sophisticated drones suggests Tehran has found a way to hit back. The
techniques were developed from reverse-engineering several less
sophisticated American drones captured or shot down in recent years, the
engineer says, and by taking advantage of weak, easily manipulated GPS
signals, which calculate location and speed from multiple satellites.
Rock Center: Iran's growing influence in
Iraqhttp://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/13/9398341-a-growing-iranian-threat-in-wake-of-us-military-withdrawal-from-iraq-this-month

Western military experts and a number of published papers on GPS spoofing
indicate that the scenario described by the Iranian engineer is plausible.

Even modern combat-grade GPS [is] very susceptible to manipulation, says
former US Navy electronic warfare specialist Robert Densmore, adding that
it is certainly possible to recalibrate the GPS on a drone so that it
flies on a different course. I wouldn't say it's easy, but the technology
is there.

In 2009, Iran-backed Shiite militants in Iraq were found to have downloaded
live, unencrypted video streams from American Predator drones with
inexpensive, off-the-shelf software. But Irans apparent ability now to
actually take control of a drone is far more significant.

Iran asserted its ability to do this in September, as pressure mounted over
its nuclear program.

Gen. Moharam Gholizadeh, the deputy for electronic warfare at the air
defense headquarters of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC),
described to Fars News how Iran could alter the path of a GPS-guided
missile a tactic more easily applied to a slower-moving drone.

*Downed US drone: How Iran caught the
'beast'*http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/1209/Downed-US-drone-How-Iran-caught-the-beast

We have a project on hand that is one step ahead of jamming, meaning
deception of the aggressive systems, said Gholizadeh, such that we can
define our own desired information for it so the path of the missile would
change to our desired destination.

Gholizadeh said that all the movements of these [enemy drones] were being
watched, and obstructing their work was always on our agenda.

That interview has since been pulled from Fars Persian-language website.
And last month, the relatively young Gholizadeh died of a heart attack,
which some Iranian news sites called suspicious suggesting the electronic
warfare expert may have been a casualty in the covert war against Iran.

*Iran's growing electronic capabilities
*Iranian lawmakers say the drone capture is a great epic and claim to be
in the final steps of breaking into the aircraft's secret code.

Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta told Fox News on Dec. 13 that the US will
absolutely continue the drone campaign over Iran, looking for evidence of
any nuclear weapons work. But the stakes are higher for such surveillance,

Re: [time-nuts] Ebay FE-5680A Rb

One of these days, when I run out of other things to play with, I want to
...

Well said Hal.
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[time-nuts] Vectron oscillator

2011-12-15 Thread phil

The nearest data I can find is Vectron C4550 datasheet which is not  
very helpful.

Does anyone have the spec. for the 63.8976 ocxo?
thanks

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Jim Palfreyman

Fascinating.

I can picture setting up a bunch of transmitters in the hills to send out
strong GPS-like signals to mimic the real thing. I suppose you could
control those signals to fool the device it is somewhere else. That bit is
very clever - you'd have to adjust the signals taking into account current
positions of all current satellites. Smart bit of work there.

But it would also need incredible timing. Even a few ns out and it wouldn't
work. So how do you set up fantastic timing at different locations of
transmitters throughout a country. Well you've blocked the GPS - so that's
no good.

It would require local atomic clocks (good ones) at each location.

Do they have access to such things? Maybe I'm being naive.

Jim

On 16 December 2011 08:10, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:

Iranian electronic warfare specialists were able to cut off communications
links of the American bat-wing RQ-170 Sentinel, says the engineer, who
works for one of many Iranian military and civilian teams currently trying
to unravel the drone’s stealth and intelligence secrets, and who could not
be named for his safety.

The “spoofing” technique that the Iranians used – which took into account
precise landing altitudes, as well as latitudinal and longitudinal data –
made the drone “land on its own where we wanted it to, without having to
crack the remote-control signals and communications” from the US control
center, says the engineer.

Now this engineer’s account of how Iran took over one of America’s most
sophisticated drones suggests Tehran has found a way to hit back. The
techniques were developed from reverse-engineering several less
sophisticated American drones captured or shot down in recent years, the
engineer says, and by taking advantage of weak, easily manipulated GPS
signals, which calculate location and speed from multiple satellites.
Rock Center: Iran's growing influence in
Iraq
http://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/13/9398341-a-growing-iranian-threat-in-wake-of-us-military-withdrawal-from-iraq-this-month

Western military experts and a number of published papers on GPS spoofing
indicate that the scenario described by the Iranian engineer is plausible.

Even modern combat-grade GPS [is] very susceptible” to manipulation, says
former US Navy electronic warfare specialist Robert Densmore, adding that
it is “certainly possible” to recalibrate the GPS on a drone so that it
flies on a different course. “I wouldn't say it's easy, but the technology
is there.”

In 2009, Iran-backed Shiite militants in Iraq were found to have downloaded
live, unencrypted video streams from American Predator drones with
inexpensive, off-the-shelf software. But Iran’s apparent ability now to
actually take control of a drone is far more significant.

Iran asserted its ability to do this in September, as pressure mounted over
its nuclear program.

Gen. Moharam Gholizadeh, the deputy for electronic warfare at the air
defense headquarters of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC),
described to Fars News how Iran could alter the path of a GPS-guided
missile – a tactic more easily applied to a slower-moving drone.

*Downed US drone: How Iran caught the
'beast'*
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/1209/Downed-US-drone-How-Iran-caught-the-beast

“We have a project on hand that is one step ahead of jamming, meaning
‘deception’ of the aggressive systems,” said Gholizadeh, such that “we can
define our own desired information for it so the path of the missile would
change to

Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Charles P. Steinmetz


John wrote:


Iran hijacked US drone, claims Iranian engineer  Tells Christian Science
Monitor that CIA's spy aircraft was 'spoofed' into landing in enemy
territory instead of its home base in Afghanistan
Iran guided the CIA's lost stealth drone to an intact landing inside
hostile territory by exploiting a navigational weakness long-known to the
US military, according to an Iranian engineer now working on the captured
drone's systems inside Iran.


-- snip --

If the report in the article is true, we deserve to lose drones to 
countries like Iran for not having the sense to install an inertial 
guidance system to back up and reality check the GPS.  (Omitting 
IGS would be such a major gaffe that it calls into question the 
veracity of the Iranian claims.  Were we really that stupid, or that cheap?)


Best regards,

Charles






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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Chuck Harris


In the 1970's, and 80's, US universities educated great quantities of
Iranian students.  Although there were some duds, most were very smart.
I've worked with several that could easily hack such a drone.  Hell,
there were Iranian engineers that helped design the GPS satellites and
receivers.

Should it be any surprise that they know how to do such things?

The only savings grace is so many of the US educated Iranian engineers
stayed in the US to live... but certainly not all.  How many have drifted
back home after the wave of anti-muslim/anti-arab-looking-people craze that
hit the US post 9/11 is anybody's guess.

-Chuck Harris

J. Forster wrote:

Iran hijacked US drone, claims Iranian engineer  Tells Christian Science
Monitor that CIA's spy aircraft was 'spoofed' into landing in enemy
territory instead of its home base in Afghanistan
Iran guided the CIA's lost stealth drone to an intact landing inside
hostile territory by exploiting a navigational weakness long-known to the
US military, according to an Iranian engineer now working on the captured
drone's systems inside Iran.

Iranian electronic warfare specialists were able to cut off communications
links of the American bat-wing RQ-170 Sentinel, says the engineer, who
works for one of many Iranian military and civilian teams currently trying
to unravel the drone’s stealth and intelligence secrets, and who could not
be named for his safety.

Using knowledge gleaned from previous downed American drones and a
technique proudly claimed by Iranian commanders in September, the Iranian
specialists then reconfigured the drone's GPS coordinates to make it land
in Iran at what the drone thought was its actual home base in Afghanistan.


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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Chuck Harris


I would say without question the answer is YES!

When the US DOD switched its backing to COTS electronics in all
of its defense hardware, it also went looking for the cheapest
way to get the most bang for the buck with defense hardware.

They certainly would be willing to save 100 lbs of inertial
guidance hardware if 8 ounces of GPS hardware could get the
plane on target.

-Chuck Harris

Charles P. Steinmetz wrote:


If the report in the article is true, we deserve to lose drones to countries 
like
Iran for not having the sense to install an inertial guidance system to back up 
and
reality check the GPS. (Omitting IGS would be such a major gaffe that it 
calls into
question the veracity of the Iranian claims. Were we really that stupid, or 
that cheap?)

Best regards,

Charles


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[time-nuts] Computer World Shark Tank story on topic for the list today

2011-12-15 Thread jim s

This is about trying to get three ships with 1 microsecond synchronized 
time at sea in the early 90's


http://blogs.computerworld.com/19423/does_anybody_really_know_what_time_it_is

Jim

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread lists

It depends on if they use the civilian or military GPS signal. Spoofing the 
military signal should be tough. 

Inertial guidances isn't all that heavy these days. Laser ring gyros for 
instance or perhaps MEMs could be used. 
 

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread mike cook


Le 15 déc. 2011 à 23:24, Azelio Boriani a écrit :

 There are GPS simulators for lab use (never seen live or in a picture), I
 suppose they have one connector to feed the GPS receiver antenna.
 Generating in one equipment all the signals you don't need many but only
 one precise timing source.
 
 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:06 PM, Jim Palfreyman jim77...@gmail.com wrote:
 

Yup, this looks like the way to go about it. One box can simulate the 
whole GNSS constellation. Just need to modify the ephemeris and pump the 
simulation to a transmitter. 

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

Yes, now wondering if there are L1/L2 simulators out there... better
googling around.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:35 PM, li...@lazygranch.com wrote:

 It depends on if they use the civilian or military GPS signal. Spoofing
 the military signal should be tough.

 Inertial guidances isn't all that heavy these days. Laser ring gyros for
 instance or perhaps MEMs could be used.


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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Magnus Danielson


On 12/15/2011 11:06 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote:

Fascinating.

I can picture setting up a bunch of transmitters in the hills to send out
strong GPS-like signals to mimic the real thing. I suppose you could
control those signals to fool the device it is somewhere else. That bit is
very clever - you'd have to adjust the signals taking into account current
positions of all current satellites. Smart bit of work there.

But it would also need incredible timing. Even a few ns out and it wouldn't
work. So how do you set up fantastic timing at different locations of
transmitters throughout a country. Well you've blocked the GPS - so that's
no good.

It would require local atomic clocks (good ones) at each location.

Do they have access to such things? Maybe I'm being naive.


To transmit a GPS cluster signal you need a GPS simulator to generate 
the cluster so even a single transmitter can do this, the relative 
timing and not the different positions of the transmitters is what the 
receiver sees.


When over-powering the real birds you just needs to be close enough in 
timing, and it is the location of the target which is of interest.


If this scenario is true... then they have not done their home-work. I 
would ask a number of critical questions already from my civilian 
background.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread David VanHorn


Note that the undercarriage is always hidden when it's shown.
I suspect they simply jammed the GPS and command links, and it defaulted to an 
automatic soft landing on not so soft terrain.
Rather less impressive, but still annoying.

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Peter Gottlieb


Just watch how GPS stuff will get all restricted now.


On 12/15/2011 5:40 PM, mike cook wrote:

Le 15 déc. 2011 à 23:24, Azelio Boriani a écrit :


There are GPS simulators for lab use (never seen live or in a picture), I
suppose they have one connector to feed the GPS receiver antenna.
Generating in one equipment all the signals you don't need many but only
one precise timing source.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:06 PM, Jim Palfreymanjim77...@gmail.com  wrote:


Yup, this looks like the way to go about it. One box can simulate the
whole GNSS constellation. Just need to modify the ephemeris and pump the 
simulation to a transmitter.

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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2108/4082 - Release Date: 12/15/11






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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

I agree. This is my opinion too.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:50 PM, David VanHorn 
d.vanh...@elec-solutions.com wrote:


 Note that the undercarriage is always hidden when it's shown.
 I suspect they simply jammed the GPS and command links, and it defaulted
 to an automatic soft landing on not so soft terrain.
 Rather less impressive, but still annoying.

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Jean-Louis Noel


Hi,

From: Azelio Boriani azelio.bori...@screen.it


Yes, now wondering if there are L1/L2 simulators out there... better
googling around.


http://wireless.vt.edu/symposium/2011/posters/GPS%20Signal%20Simulation_Brown.pdf

Bye,
Jean-Louis

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread mike cook

Le 15 déc. 2011 à 23:57, Peter Gottlieb a écrit :

 Just watch how GPS stuff will get all restricted now.
 

Too late, Simulators are on paybay now.  Just need deep pockets. 
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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

Thank you for the link.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Jean-Louis Noel j...@stben.net wrote:

 Hi,

 From: Azelio Boriani azelio.bori...@screen.it

  Yes, now wondering if there are L1/L2 simulators out there... better
 googling around.



 http://wireless.vt.edu/symposium/2011/posters/GPS%20Signal%20Simulation_Brown.pdf

 Bye,
 Jean-Louis


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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

The Spirent STR4500 seems very up-to-date, very expensive, L1 C/A only.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:02 AM, Azelio Boriani
azelio.bori...@screen.itwrote:

 Thank you for the link.


 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Jean-Louis Noel j...@stben.net wrote:

 Hi,

 From: Azelio Boriani azelio.bori...@screen.it

  Yes, now wondering if there are L1/L2 simulators out there... better
 googling around.



 http://wireless.vt.edu/symposium/2011/posters/GPS%20Signal%20Simulation_Brown.pdf

 Bye,
 Jean-Louis


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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

I'm not so sure. What if you has one site, antenna, and transmitter and a
dozen signal sources with programmable synthesizers and coders.

The drone antenna is likely omni. The Russians or Chinese could easily
supply that.

-John

Fascinating.

But it would also need incredible timing. Even a few ns out and it
wouldn't
work. So how do you set up fantastic timing at different locations of
transmitters throughout a country. Well you've blocked the GPS - so that's
no good.

It would require local atomic clocks (good ones) at each location.

Do they have access to such things? Maybe I'm being naive.

Jim

On 16 December 2011 08:10, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:

Iran hijacked US drone, claims Iranian engineer Tells Christian Science
Monitor that CIA's spy aircraft was 'spoofed' into landing in enemy
territory instead of its home base in Afghanistan
Iran guided the CIA's lost stealth drone to an intact landing inside
hostile territory by exploiting a navigational weakness long-known to
the
US military, according to an Iranian engineer now working on the
captured
drone's systems inside Iran.

Iranian electronic warfare specialists were able to cut off
communications
links of the American bat-wing RQ-170 Sentinel, says the engineer, who
works for one of many Iranian military and civilian teams currently
trying
to unravel the drones stealth and intelligence secrets, and who could
not
be named for his safety.

Using knowledge gleaned from previous downed American drones and a
technique proudly claimed by Iranian commanders in September, the
Iranian
specialists then reconfigured the drone's GPS coordinates to make it
land
in Iran at what the drone thought was its actual home base in
Afghanistan.

The spoofing technique that the Iranians used which took into
account
precise landing altitudes, as well as latitudinal and longitudinal data

made the drone land on its own where we wanted it to, without having to
crack the remote-control signals and communications from the US control
center, says the engineer.

The revelations about Iran's apparent electronic prowess come as the US,
Israel, and some European nations appear to be engaged in an
ever-widening
covert war with Iran, which has seen assassinations of Iranian nuclear
scientists, explosions at Iran's missile and industrial facilities, and
the
Stuxnet computer virus that set back Irans nuclear program.

Now this engineers account of how Iran took over one of Americas most
sophisticated drones suggests Tehran has found a way to hit back. The
techniques were developed from reverse-engineering several less
sophisticated American drones captured or shot down in recent years, the
engineer says, and by taking advantage of weak, easily manipulated GPS
signals, which calculate location and speed from multiple satellites.
Rock Center: Iran's growing influence in
Iraq
http://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/13/9398341-a-growing-iranian-threat-in-wake-of-us-military-withdrawal-from-iraq-this-month

Western military experts and a number of published papers on GPS
spoofing
indicate that the scenario described by the Iranian engineer is
plausible.

Even modern combat-grade GPS [is] very susceptible to manipulation,
says
former US Navy electronic warfare specialist Robert Densmore, adding
that
it is certainly possible to recalibrate the GPS on a drone so that it
flies on a different course. I wouldn't say it's easy, but the
technology
is there.

In 2009, Iran-backed Shiite militants in Iraq were found to have
downloaded
live, unencrypted video streams from American Predator drones with
inexpensive, off-the-shelf software. But Irans apparent ability now to
actually take control of a drone is far more significant.

Iran asserted its ability to do this in September, as pressure mounted
over
its nuclear program.

*Downed US drone: How Iran caught the
'beast'*

Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

I bet this drone contains no technology that is not exportable.  Of
course they had to think about a crash.

I also bet it had an inertial nav system as backup to the GPS.   But
and this is the key to all backups.  You have to know the primary is
failed.   When you jam GPS the smart way is not to over power it with
white noise but to first transmit an IDENTICAL signal.  Then very
slowly move your stronger signal away from truth until it is sending
a false signal.   This way the receiver does not know it is being
jammed.  No I did not just think of this, it's what everyone does.
 But why then if the INS and GPS disagree was there not an alarm?   It
was likely a low-cost INS that needed periodic updates from a GPS

I would not rule out that they simply made the drone fly into a big
fishing net and dropped it with a parachute in a kind of controlled
mid air collision.   Heck the US used to capture film cam falling from
space with big nets

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

OK, now I know what a GPS simulator is like. BTW the Spirent is cheaper at
used-line.com than on paybay. Anyway my opinion doesn't change: as pointed
out by David VanHorn they have jammed the GPS and the data link. I think
the data link must be a sophisticated frequency hopping type radio link so,
at most, their skill was to jam that.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:04 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:

I'm not so sure. What if you has one site, antenna, and transmitter and a
dozen signal sources with programmable synthesizers and coders.

The drone antenna is likely omni. The Russians or Chinese could easily
supply that.

-John

Fascinating.

I can picture setting up a bunch of transmitters in the hills to send out
strong GPS-like signals to mimic the real thing. I suppose you could
control those signals to fool the device it is somewhere else. That bit
is
very clever - you'd have to adjust the signals taking into account
current
positions of all current satellites. Smart bit of work there.

But it would also need incredible timing. Even a few ns out and it
wouldn't
work. So how do you set up fantastic timing at different locations of
transmitters throughout a country. Well you've blocked the GPS - so
that's
no good.

It would require local atomic clocks (good ones) at each location.

Do they have access to such things? Maybe I'm being naive.

Jim

On 16 December 2011 08:10, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:

Iran hijacked US drone, claims Iranian engineer Tells Christian Science
Monitor that CIA's spy aircraft was 'spoofed' into landing in enemy
territory instead of its home base in Afghanistan
Iran guided the CIA's lost stealth drone to an intact landing inside
hostile territory by exploiting a navigational weakness long-known to
the
US military, according to an Iranian engineer now working on the
captured
drone's systems inside Iran.

Iranian electronic warfare specialists were able to cut off
communications
links of the American bat-wing RQ-170 Sentinel, says the engineer, who
works for one of many Iranian military and civilian teams currently
trying
to unravel the drone’s stealth and intelligence secrets, and who could
not
be named for his safety.

Using knowledge gleaned from previous downed American drones and a
technique proudly claimed by Iranian commanders in September, the
Iranian
specialists then reconfigured the drone's GPS coordinates to make it
land
in Iran at what the drone thought was its actual home base in
Afghanistan.

The “spoofing” technique that the Iranians used – which took into
account
precise landing altitudes, as well as latitudinal and longitudinal data
–
made the drone “land on its own where we wanted it to, without having to
crack the remote-control signals and communications” from the US control
center, says the engineer.

The revelations about Iran's apparent electronic prowess come as the US,
Israel, and some European nations appear to be engaged in an
ever-widening
covert war with Iran, which has seen assassinations of Iranian nuclear
scientists, explosions at Iran's missile and industrial facilities, and
the
Stuxnet computer virus that set back Iran’s nuclear program.

http://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/13/9398341-a-growing-iranian-threat-in-wake-of-us-military-withdrawal-from-iraq-this-month

Western military experts and a number of published papers on GPS
spoofing
indicate that the scenario described by the Iranian engineer is
plausible.

Even modern combat-grade GPS [is] very susceptible” to manipulation,
says
former US Navy electronic warfare specialist Robert Densmore, adding
that
it is “certainly possible” to recalibrate the GPS on a drone so that it
flies on a different course. “I wouldn't say it's easy, but the
technology
is there.”

In 2009, Iran-backed Shiite militants in Iraq were found to have
downloaded
live, unencrypted video streams from American Predator drones with
inexpensive, off-the-shelf software. But Iran’s apparent ability now to
actually take

Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread mike cook

I wonder how long it will be before we see Brinks vans, Ferrari's and other 
more mundane GPS dependent things being hijacked. Possibilities seem limitless.
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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,



You could just have a GPS receiver and use that to sync up the jammer.

-John

==



 To transmit a GPS cluster signal you need a GPS simulator to generate
 the cluster so even a single transmitter can do this, the relative
 timing and not the different positions of the transmitters is what the
 receiver sees.

 When over-powering the real birds you just needs to be close enough in
 timing, and it is the location of the target which is of interest.

 If this scenario is true... then they have not done their home-work. I
 would ask a number of critical questions already from my civilian
 background.

 Cheers,
 Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

Of course, but then when you switch on your transmitter you are on your
own. Considering the speed of a drone (700Km/h?) you need a great coverage,
so much RF power out.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:22 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:



 You could just have a GPS receiver and use that to sync up the jammer.

 -John

 ==


 
  To transmit a GPS cluster signal you need a GPS simulator to generate
  the cluster so even a single transmitter can do this, the relative
  timing and not the different positions of the transmitters is what the
  receiver sees.
 
  When over-powering the real birds you just needs to be close enough in
  timing, and it is the location of the target which is of interest.
 
  If this scenario is true... then they have not done their home-work. I
  would ask a number of critical questions already from my civilian
  background.
 
  Cheers,
  Magnus
 
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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Rich and Marcia Putz

Now I've heard Lightsquared was installing a network in Iran! Just kidding, but 
what would happen?  
I would think that just jamming the L1-L2 frequencies would be enough to cause 
the drone to fly in circles or a straight line until it ran out of fuel and 
flopped to the ground, perhaps explaining the hidden undercarriage as mentioned 
earlier. Do you think they might turn Loran-C back on so no one here can spoof 
the police drones flying around!!??!!
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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Joe Leikhim

Arriving this week, IEEE Magazine this months issue has an article about 
pilot-less commercial airliners, comparing the UAV drone technology as 
being readily available to fly paying passengers from here to there. 
Coincidentally the table of contents page depicts a drone which appears 
to be this very same Beast of Kandahar taking off! I look forward to 
the future letters column. I for one would not trust a pilot-less plane 
to transport me knowing that a terrorist need only to jam or spoof the 
GPS constellation, and bring down hundreds of planes. Heck, the proposed 
LightSquared system could bring the planes down.


--
Joe Leikhim

Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida

www.Leikhim.com

jleik...@leikhim.com

407-982-0446

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread gary

I've talked to the GPS jammers at Nellis and have seen their gear. They 
don't spoof but just jam. The gear is totally COTS. Some Marconi signal 
generator that can generate white noise at the two GPS frequencies. They 
have omni or directional antennas. They have an old Russian jammer on 
hand, but the Marconi works a lot better.


I've been jammed by them. It is interesting in that the GPS just 
suddenly dies. That is, it seems to track given some noise, but you hit 
a point where it suddenly gives up. It is the only time I've seen no 
satellites shown on the display.


It wouldn't surprise me if a Growler could spoof a GPS, but I have no 
hard evidence that it can.


I'm in agreement with they just jammed everything and the thing ran out 
of fuel. I have a FOIA somewhere on a Predator crash. With LOS, it just 
orbits. In the case of this Predator, it orbited into a mountain near 
Creech AFB.



On 12/15/2011 3:18 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

I bet this drone contains no technology that is not exportable.  Of
course they had to think about a crash.

I also bet it had an inertial nav system as backup to the GPS.   But
and this is the key to all backups.  You have to know the primary is
failed.   When you jam GPS the smart way is not to over power it with
white noise but to first transmit an IDENTICAL signal.  Then very
slowly move your stronger signal away from truth until it is sending
a false signal.   This way the receiver does not know it is being
jammed.  No I did not just think of this, it's what everyone does.
  But why then if the INS and GPS disagree was there not an alarm?   It
was likely a low-cost INS that needed periodic updates from a GPS

I would not rule out that they simply made the drone fly into a big
fishing net and dropped it with a parachute in a kind of controlled
mid air collision.   Heck the US used to capture film cam falling from
space with big nets

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Azelio Boriani
azelio.bori...@screen.it wrote:
  Considering the speed of a drone (700Km/h?) you need a great coverage,
 so much RF power out.

No.  The transmitter could be in an aircraft that follows the drone,
maybe only 100 feet away.



Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Joe Leikhim


This mindset is an example why the US is falling so far behind the rest of the 
world, not only in technology but in the diplomacy game. In 1980 I worked for a 
very smart engineering manager who told me he studied electrical engineering by 
the light of a gasoline lantern in a tent in Turkey.

US officials skeptical of Iran's capabilities blame a malfunction, but so far can't 
explain how Iran acquired the drone intact. One American analyst ridiculed Iran's 
capability, telling Defense News that the loss was like dropping a Ferrari into an 
ox-cart technology culture.

--
Joe Leikhim

Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida

www.Leikhim.com

jleik...@leikhim.com

407-982-0446

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread gsteinba52

You guys are just over-thinking this issue. Iran was merely testing out a new 
Lightsquared base station.

Jerry
 

 

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Pieter ten Pierick

Hi,

 Of course, but then when you switch on your transmitter you are on your
 own. Considering the speed of a drone (700Km/h?) you need a great
 coverage, so much RF power out.

Easy: Use a dish antenna on the transmitter.
Very directional with large ampification.
If using a 'moderate' opening angle, just pointing the dish at the drone
by hand will work.
After starting the system locked to the gps time, once the signal is on
the drone,
I don't think it matters anymore. (It might not even matter at the start?)
The drone will follow the timing of the jammer.
As the drone will receive all signals from the single transmitter, the
relative timing will be fixed.
Just using a OCXO will have a good enough short time stability to allow
the system to work, I would think.
As the plan is to land or jam the drone within say 10 minutes, long term
stability is not that important...

Greetings,
Pieter.

 On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:22 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:



 You could just have a GPS receiver and use that to sync up the jammer.

 -John

 ==


 
  To transmit a GPS cluster signal you need a GPS simulator to generate
  the cluster so even a single transmitter can do this, the relative
  timing and not the different positions of the transmitters is what the
  receiver sees.
 
  When over-powering the real birds you just needs to be close enough in
  timing, and it is the location of the target which is of interest.
 
  If this scenario is true... then they have not done their home-work. I
  would ask a number of critical questions already from my civilian
  background.
 
  Cheers,
  Magnus
 
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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

Yes, agree. An OCXO is enough (but my opinion is the same: only jammed not
steered).

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Pieter ten Pierick 
time-nuts-m...@tenpierick.com wrote:

 Hi,

  Of course, but then when you switch on your transmitter you are on your
  own. Considering the speed of a drone (700Km/h?) you need a great
  coverage, so much RF power out.

 Easy: Use a dish antenna on the transmitter.
 Very directional with large ampification.
 If using a 'moderate' opening angle, just pointing the dish at the drone
 by hand will work.
 After starting the system locked to the gps time, once the signal is on
 the drone,
 I don't think it matters anymore. (It might not even matter at the start?)
 The drone will follow the timing of the jammer.
 As the drone will receive all signals from the single transmitter, the
 relative timing will be fixed.
 Just using a OCXO will have a good enough short time stability to allow
 the system to work, I would think.
 As the plan is to land or jam the drone within say 10 minutes, long term
 stability is not that important...

 Greetings,
 Pieter.
 
  On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:22 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:
 
 
 
  You could just have a GPS receiver and use that to sync up the jammer.
 
  -John
 
  ==
 
 
  
   To transmit a GPS cluster signal you need a GPS simulator to generate
   the cluster so even a single transmitter can do this, the relative
   timing and not the different positions of the transmitters is what the
   receiver sees.
  
   When over-powering the real birds you just needs to be close enough in
   timing, and it is the location of the target which is of interest.
  
   If this scenario is true... then they have not done their home-work. I
   would ask a number of critical questions already from my civilian
   background.
  
   Cheers,
   Magnus
  
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[time-nuts] FW: The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Nic McLean

Jim,
Are you sure that wasn't the April edition of that mag?
Nic


Arriving this week, IEEE Magazine this months issue has an article about
pilot-less commercial airliners, comparing the UAV drone technology as being
readily available to fly paying passengers from here to there. 



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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

KISS guys.

Suppose the Iranians had one of their buddies watching the drone base.
When they saw a drone take off, the guy just called a contact by cell and
the Iranians turned on a wide coverage jammer somewhere along the flight
path.

From previous incidents and observations, if the drone came into the
jammed area, it'd lose GPS lock, orbit, and run out of gas and crash. They
could easily select a jammer site that was good for recovery.

FWIW,

-John





 Hi,

 Of course, but then when you switch on your transmitter you are on your
 own. Considering the speed of a drone (700Km/h?) you need a great
 coverage, so much RF power out.

 Easy: Use a dish antenna on the transmitter.
 Very directional with large ampification.
 If using a 'moderate' opening angle, just pointing the dish at the drone
 by hand will work.
 After starting the system locked to the gps time, once the signal is on
 the drone,
 I don't think it matters anymore. (It might not even matter at the start?)
 The drone will follow the timing of the jammer.
 As the drone will receive all signals from the single transmitter, the
 relative timing will be fixed.
 Just using a OCXO will have a good enough short time stability to allow
 the system to work, I would think.
 As the plan is to land or jam the drone within say 10 minutes, long term
 stability is not that important...

 Greetings,
 Pieter.

 On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:22 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:



 You could just have a GPS receiver and use that to sync up the jammer.

 -John

 ==


 
  To transmit a GPS cluster signal you need a GPS simulator to generate
  the cluster so even a single transmitter can do this, the relative
  timing and not the different positions of the transmitters is what
 the
  receiver sees.
 
  When over-powering the real birds you just needs to be close enough
 in
  timing, and it is the location of the target which is of interest.
 
  If this scenario is true... then they have not done their home-work.
 I
  would ask a number of critical questions already from my civilian
  background.
 
  Cheers,
  Magnus
 
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Rb Questions

2011-12-15 Thread Bob Smither


Chris Albertson wrote:

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R
c...@omen.com wrote:


1.  Will it work on 12 volts instead of 15?

My bet is no as there is an internal regulator that likely needs headroom


2. Is the serial i/o really RS-232 or something else

There is a Max rs232 level converter inside so I assume real rs232,
not TTL levels


3.  Is there a command list?

There is a book.  Google   TECHNICAL MANUAL TM0110-2


Correct in most ways, but as has been noted that manual states that the count 
used to offset the frequency (fine tune it) is:


7F FF FF FF = 2,147,483,647= +383 Hz
80 00 00 00 = -2,147,483,647= -383 Hz

which would be 5.6e6 counts / Hz or about 1.8e-14 / count.  The units reported 
on here give you about 7e-13 / count or about 142,000 counts / Hz.  This is how 
my unit behaves.


Bob S.

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Chris Stake

I agree entirely.
Chris Stake

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
 Behalf Of David VanHorn
 Sent: 15 December 2011 22:50
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement;
 li...@lazygranch.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

 Note that the undercarriage is always hidden when it's shown.
 I suspect they simply jammed the GPS and command links, and it defaulted
 to an automatic soft landing on not so soft terrain.
 Rather less impressive, but still annoying.

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread gary

Kandahar has proven poor opsec since the thing was photographed! I don't 
know about the base in Baluchistan.


But even knowing the launch doesn't mean they know when it is on target. 
Supposedly the UAS is stealthy, so it would be hard to detect.



On 12/15/2011 4:00 PM, J. Forster wrote:

KISS guys.

Suppose the Iranians had one of their buddies watching the drone base.
When they saw a drone take off, the guy just called a contact by cell and
the Iranians turned on a wide coverage jammer somewhere along the flight
path.


From previous incidents and observations, if the drone came into the

jammed area, it'd lose GPS lock, orbit, and run out of gas and crash. They
could easily select a jammer site that was good for recovery.

FWIW,

-John






Hi,


Of course, but then when you switch on your transmitter you are on your
own. Considering the speed of a drone (700Km/h?) you need a great
coverage, so much RF power out.


Easy: Use a dish antenna on the transmitter.
Very directional with large ampification.
If using a 'moderate' opening angle, just pointing the dish at the drone
by hand will work.
After starting the system locked to the gps time, once the signal is on
the drone,
I don't think it matters anymore. (It might not even matter at the start?)
The drone will follow the timing of the jammer.
As the drone will receive all signals from the single transmitter, the
relative timing will be fixed.
Just using a OCXO will have a good enough short time stability to allow
the system to work, I would think.
As the plan is to land or jam the drone within say 10 minutes, long term
stability is not that important...

Greetings,
Pieter.


On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:22 AM, J. Forsterj...@quikus.com  wrote:




You could just have a GPS receiver and use that to sync up the jammer.

-John

==




To transmit a GPS cluster signal you need a GPS simulator to generate
the cluster so even a single transmitter can do this, the relative
timing and not the different positions of the transmitters is what

the

receiver sees.

When over-powering the real birds you just needs to be close enough

in

timing, and it is the location of the target which is of interest.

If this scenario is true... then they have not done their home-work.

I

would ask a number of critical questions already from my civilian
background.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

All I can say is that the sheet metal on that drone looks really good.
 I doubt it ran out of fuel.

They either landed it which would require very high level spoofing
ability or like I said use something like a butterfly net on it.   The
metal is just to straight for a crash.


On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:44 PM, gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote:
 I've talked to the GPS jammers at Nellis and have seen their gear. They
 don't spoof but just jam. The gear is totally COTS. Some Marconi signal
 generator that can generate white noise at the two GPS frequencies. They
 have omni or directional antennas. They have an old Russian jammer on hand,
 but the Marconi works a lot better.

 I've been jammed by them. It is interesting in that the GPS just suddenly
 dies. That is, it seems to track given some noise, but you hit a point where
 it suddenly gives up. It is the only time I've seen no satellites shown on
 the display.

 It wouldn't surprise me if a Growler could spoof a GPS, but I have no hard
 evidence that it can.

 I'm in agreement with they just jammed everything and the thing ran out of
 fuel. I have a FOIA somewhere on a Predator crash. With LOS, it just orbits.
 In the case of this Predator, it orbited into a mountain near Creech AFB.


 On 12/15/2011 3:18 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

 I bet this drone contains no technology that is not exportable.  Of
 course they had to think about a crash.

 I also bet it had an inertial nav system as backup to the GPS.   But
 and this is the key to all backups.  You have to know the primary is
 failed.   When you jam GPS the smart way is not to over power it with
 white noise but to first transmit an IDENTICAL signal.  Then very
 slowly move your stronger signal away from truth until it is sending
 a false signal.   This way the receiver does not know it is being
 jammed.  No I did not just think of this, it's what everyone does.
  But why then if the INS and GPS disagree was there not an alarm?   It
 was likely a low-cost INS that needed periodic updates from a GPS

 I would not rule out that they simply made the drone fly into a big
 fishing net and dropped it with a parachute in a kind of controlled
 mid air collision.   Heck the US used to capture film cam falling from
 space with big nets

 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California

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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread gary


It is composite, not metal.

If you know what you are doing, composites are extremely tough. I don't 
know if graphite is kosher on a stealth plane. I have to assume it is 
S-2 glass or similar nonconductive composites. But if graphite were 
allowed, you would be amazed at how much abuse it could take.



On 12/15/2011 4:15 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

All I can say is that the sheet metal on that drone looks really good.
  I doubt it ran out of fuel.

They either landed it which would require very high level spoofing
ability or like I said use something like a butterfly net on it.   The
metal is just to straight for a crash.


On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:44 PM, garyli...@lazygranch.com  wrote:

I've talked to the GPS jammers at Nellis and have seen their gear. They
don't spoof but just jam. The gear is totally COTS. Some Marconi signal
generator that can generate white noise at the two GPS frequencies. They
have omni or directional antennas. They have an old Russian jammer on hand,
but the Marconi works a lot better.

I've been jammed by them. It is interesting in that the GPS just suddenly
dies. That is, it seems to track given some noise, but you hit a point where
it suddenly gives up. It is the only time I've seen no satellites shown on
the display.

It wouldn't surprise me if a Growler could spoof a GPS, but I have no hard
evidence that it can.

I'm in agreement with they just jammed everything and the thing ran out of
fuel. I have a FOIA somewhere on a Predator crash. With LOS, it just orbits.
In the case of this Predator, it orbited into a mountain near Creech AFB.


On 12/15/2011 3:18 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:


I bet this drone contains no technology that is not exportable.  Of
course they had to think about a crash.

I also bet it had an inertial nav system as backup to the GPS.   But
and this is the key to all backups.  You have to know the primary is
failed.   When you jam GPS the smart way is not to over power it with
white noise but to first transmit an IDENTICAL signal.  Then very
slowly move your stronger signal away from truth until it is sending
a false signal.   This way the receiver does not know it is being
jammed.  No I did not just think of this, it's what everyone does.
  But why then if the INS and GPS disagree was there not an alarm?   It
was likely a low-cost INS that needed periodic updates from a GPS

I would not rule out that they simply made the drone fly into a big
fishing net and dropped it with a parachute in a kind of controlled
mid air collision.   Heck the US used to capture film cam falling from
space with big nets

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Bob Camp

Hi

Hard to detect looking horizontally, pretty easy looking straight up (or 
straight down from above it).

Bob


On Dec 15, 2011, at 7:14 PM, gary wrote:

 Kandahar has proven poor opsec since the thing was photographed! I don't know 
 about the base in Baluchistan.
 
 But even knowing the launch doesn't mean they know when it is on target. 
 Supposedly the UAS is stealthy, so it would be hard to detect.
 
 
 On 12/15/2011 4:00 PM, J. Forster wrote:
 KISS guys.
 
 Suppose the Iranians had one of their buddies watching the drone base.
 When they saw a drone take off, the guy just called a contact by cell and
 the Iranians turned on a wide coverage jammer somewhere along the flight
 path.
 
 From previous incidents and observations, if the drone came into the
 jammed area, it'd lose GPS lock, orbit, and run out of gas and crash. They
 could easily select a jammer site that was good for recovery.
 
 FWIW,
 
 -John
 
 
 
 
 
 Hi,
 
 Of course, but then when you switch on your transmitter you are on your
 own. Considering the speed of a drone (700Km/h?) you need a great
 coverage, so much RF power out.
 
 Easy: Use a dish antenna on the transmitter.
 Very directional with large ampification.
 If using a 'moderate' opening angle, just pointing the dish at the drone
 by hand will work.
 After starting the system locked to the gps time, once the signal is on
 the drone,
 I don't think it matters anymore. (It might not even matter at the start?)
 The drone will follow the timing of the jammer.
 As the drone will receive all signals from the single transmitter, the
 relative timing will be fixed.
 Just using a OCXO will have a good enough short time stability to allow
 the system to work, I would think.
 As the plan is to land or jam the drone within say 10 minutes, long term
 stability is not that important...
 
 Greetings,
 Pieter.
 
 On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:22 AM, J. Forsterj...@quikus.com  wrote:
 
 
 
 You could just have a GPS receiver and use that to sync up the jammer.
 
 -John
 
 ==
 
 
 
 To transmit a GPS cluster signal you need a GPS simulator to generate
 the cluster so even a single transmitter can do this, the relative
 timing and not the different positions of the transmitters is what
 the
 receiver sees.
 
 When over-powering the real birds you just needs to be close enough
 in
 timing, and it is the location of the target which is of interest.
 
 If this scenario is true... then they have not done their home-work.
 I
 would ask a number of critical questions already from my civilian
 background.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
 
 ___
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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

Has anybody seen the underside? It could have pancaked or crashed on sand
or something. I've no idea of the terrain at the crash site.

-John

===

 All I can say is that the sheet metal on that drone looks really good.
  I doubt it ran out of fuel.

 They either landed it which would require very high level spoofing
 ability or like I said use something like a butterfly net on it.   The
 metal is just to straight for a crash.


 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:44 PM, gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote:
 I've talked to the GPS jammers at Nellis and have seen their gear. They
 don't spoof but just jam. The gear is totally COTS. Some Marconi signal
 generator that can generate white noise at the two GPS frequencies. They
 have omni or directional antennas. They have an old Russian jammer on
 hand,
 but the Marconi works a lot better.

 I've been jammed by them. It is interesting in that the GPS just
 suddenly
 dies. That is, it seems to track given some noise, but you hit a point
 where
 it suddenly gives up. It is the only time I've seen no satellites shown
 on
 the display.

 It wouldn't surprise me if a Growler could spoof a GPS, but I have no
 hard
 evidence that it can.

 I'm in agreement with they just jammed everything and the thing ran out
 of
 fuel. I have a FOIA somewhere on a Predator crash. With LOS, it just
 orbits.
 In the case of this Predator, it orbited into a mountain near Creech
 AFB.


 On 12/15/2011 3:18 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

 I bet this drone contains no technology that is not exportable.  Of
 course they had to think about a crash.

 I also bet it had an inertial nav system as backup to the GPS.   But
 and this is the key to all backups.  You have to know the primary is
 failed.   When you jam GPS the smart way is not to over power it with
 white noise but to first transmit an IDENTICAL signal.  Then very
 slowly move your stronger signal away from truth until it is sending
 a false signal.   This way the receiver does not know it is being
 jammed.  No I did not just think of this, it's what everyone does.
  But why then if the INS and GPS disagree was there not an alarm?   It
 was likely a low-cost INS that needed periodic updates from a GPS

 I would not rule out that they simply made the drone fly into a big
 fishing net and dropped it with a parachute in a kind of controlled
 mid air collision.   Heck the US used to capture film cam falling from
 space with big nets

 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California

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 --

 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

Maybe you can hear them taking off?

-John

=


 Hi

 Hard to detect looking horizontally, pretty easy looking straight up (or
 straight down from above it).

 Bob


 On Dec 15, 2011, at 7:14 PM, gary wrote:

 Kandahar has proven poor opsec since the thing was photographed! I don't
 know about the base in Baluchistan.

 But even knowing the launch doesn't mean they know when it is on target.
 Supposedly the UAS is stealthy, so it would be hard to detect.


 On 12/15/2011 4:00 PM, J. Forster wrote:
 KISS guys.

 Suppose the Iranians had one of their buddies watching the drone base.
 When they saw a drone take off, the guy just called a contact by cell
 and
 the Iranians turned on a wide coverage jammer somewhere along the
 flight
 path.

 From previous incidents and observations, if the drone came into the
 jammed area, it'd lose GPS lock, orbit, and run out of gas and crash.
 They
 could easily select a jammer site that was good for recovery.

 FWIW,

 -John

 



 Hi,

 Of course, but then when you switch on your transmitter you are on
 your
 own. Considering the speed of a drone (700Km/h?) you need a great
 coverage, so much RF power out.

 Easy: Use a dish antenna on the transmitter.
 Very directional with large ampification.
 If using a 'moderate' opening angle, just pointing the dish at the
 drone
 by hand will work.
 After starting the system locked to the gps time, once the signal is
 on
 the drone,
 I don't think it matters anymore. (It might not even matter at the
 start?)
 The drone will follow the timing of the jammer.
 As the drone will receive all signals from the single transmitter, the
 relative timing will be fixed.
 Just using a OCXO will have a good enough short time stability to
 allow
 the system to work, I would think.
 As the plan is to land or jam the drone within say 10 minutes, long
 term
 stability is not that important...

 Greetings,
 Pieter.

 On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:22 AM, J. Forsterj...@quikus.com  wrote:



 You could just have a GPS receiver and use that to sync up the
 jammer.

 -John

 ==



 To transmit a GPS cluster signal you need a GPS simulator to
 generate
 the cluster so even a single transmitter can do this, the relative
 timing and not the different positions of the transmitters is what
 the
 receiver sees.

 When over-powering the real birds you just needs to be close enough
 in
 timing, and it is the location of the target which is of interest.

 If this scenario is true... then they have not done their
 home-work.
 I
 would ask a number of critical questions already from my civilian
 background.

 Cheers,
 Magnus

 ___
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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Bob Camp

Hi

Radar bounces off the flat sides very nicely ….

Bob


On Dec 15, 2011, at 7:41 PM, J. Forster wrote:

 Maybe you can hear them taking off?
 
 -John
 
 =
 
 
 Hi
 
 Hard to detect looking horizontally, pretty easy looking straight up (or
 straight down from above it).
 
 Bob
 
 
 On Dec 15, 2011, at 7:14 PM, gary wrote:
 
 Kandahar has proven poor opsec since the thing was photographed! I don't
 know about the base in Baluchistan.
 
 But even knowing the launch doesn't mean they know when it is on target.
 Supposedly the UAS is stealthy, so it would be hard to detect.
 
 
 On 12/15/2011 4:00 PM, J. Forster wrote:
 KISS guys.
 
 Suppose the Iranians had one of their buddies watching the drone base.
 When they saw a drone take off, the guy just called a contact by cell
 and
 the Iranians turned on a wide coverage jammer somewhere along the
 flight
 path.
 
 From previous incidents and observations, if the drone came into the
 jammed area, it'd lose GPS lock, orbit, and run out of gas and crash.
 They
 could easily select a jammer site that was good for recovery.
 
 FWIW,
 
 -John
 
 
 
 
 
 Hi,
 
 Of course, but then when you switch on your transmitter you are on
 your
 own. Considering the speed of a drone (700Km/h?) you need a great
 coverage, so much RF power out.
 
 Easy: Use a dish antenna on the transmitter.
 Very directional with large ampification.
 If using a 'moderate' opening angle, just pointing the dish at the
 drone
 by hand will work.
 After starting the system locked to the gps time, once the signal is
 on
 the drone,
 I don't think it matters anymore. (It might not even matter at the
 start?)
 The drone will follow the timing of the jammer.
 As the drone will receive all signals from the single transmitter, the
 relative timing will be fixed.
 Just using a OCXO will have a good enough short time stability to
 allow
 the system to work, I would think.
 As the plan is to land or jam the drone within say 10 minutes, long
 term
 stability is not that important...
 
 Greetings,
 Pieter.
 
 On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:22 AM, J. Forsterj...@quikus.com  wrote:
 
 
 
 You could just have a GPS receiver and use that to sync up the
 jammer.
 
 -John
 
 ==
 
 
 
 To transmit a GPS cluster signal you need a GPS simulator to
 generate
 the cluster so even a single transmitter can do this, the relative
 timing and not the different positions of the transmitters is what
 the
 receiver sees.
 
 When over-powering the real birds you just needs to be close enough
 in
 timing, and it is the location of the target which is of interest.
 
 If this scenario is true... then they have not done their
 home-work.
 I
 would ask a number of critical questions already from my civilian
 background.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread Chuck Harris


The problem I have seen with the light weight electronic inertial
guidance sensors is they drift off course very quickly.  You would need
to be able to correct them several times per minute...  Good enough to
keep a plane flying straight and level, and in the general direction of
target, but not good enough to hit the target...

-Chuck Harris

li...@lazygranch.com wrote:

It depends on if they use the civilian or military GPS signal. Spoofing the
military signal should be tough.

Inertial guidances isn't all that heavy these days. Laser ring gyros for 
instance
or perhaps MEMs could be used.


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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,


On 12/15/11 3:41 PM, Joe Leikhim wrote:

Arriving this week, IEEE Magazine this months issue has an article about
pilot-less commercial airliners, comparing the UAV drone technology as
being readily available to fly paying passengers from here to there.
Coincidentally the table of contents page depicts a drone which appears
to be this very same Beast of Kandahar taking off! I look forward to
the future letters column. I for one would not trust a pilot-less plane
to transport me knowing that a terrorist need only to jam or spoof the
GPS constellation, and bring down hundreds of planes.



Oddly enough, most airplanes do NOT use GPS as their primary navigation 
system.  VOR/DME (or TACAN) is one.  Inertial Nav is another.  One of 
the big deals about the 747, in fact, was that it carried a high 
performance Inertial Nav unit allowing it to do long distance overwater 
flights and wind up close enough to not miss the destination airport. 
(Look up North Atlantic Minimum Navigational Performance Standards in 
the FARs).  This was also one of the uses of the late lamented OMEGA system.


In fact one of the reasons for WAAS is that it provides signals to warn 
aircraft that the GPS signals are invalid.



Sure, GPS makes it easy to do things like JDAM strapons for bombs, but 
folks have been flying cruise missiles (which are basically UAVs with a 
warhead) with IMU and terrain comparison for decades.


Which isn't a whole lot different than a human flying a small plane by 
dead reckoning and pilotage.



For what it's worth, the real issue with UAVs is that they aren't very 
mechanically reliable.  The crash rate is on the order of 1 per 500 
flight hours. (compare to a F16 at around 1 per 50,000 hrs, commercial 
airliners are hugely more reliable.. 1 flight with at least one fatality 
per 5 million flights ) Fine in a battle zone or out over deserted 
areas, not so practical carrying passengers or doing surveillance over a 
city.  If you flew a single UAV 24/7 you'd have a crash about once every 
3 weeks.



The hard part is NOT the navigation or communication or flight controls. 
It's keeping the engine running.


Heck, the proposed

LightSquared system could bring the planes down.




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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,


On 12/15/11 2:06 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote:

Fascinating.

I can picture setting up a bunch of transmitters in the hills to send out
strong GPS-like signals to mimic the real thing. I suppose you could
control those signals to fool the device it is somewhere else. That bit is
very clever - you'd have to adjust the signals taking into account current
positions of all current satellites. Smart bit of work there.

But it would also need incredible timing. Even a few ns out and it wouldn't
work. So how do you set up fantastic timing at different locations of
transmitters throughout a country. Well you've blocked the GPS - so that's
no good.

It would require local atomic clocks (good ones) at each location.

Do they have access to such things? Maybe I'm being naive.

Jim





This would be insanely difficult to do. and hmm.. do you think that the 
antenna on the drone is pointing UP (towards the GPS constellation) or 
down (towards jammers?).  The only people pointing antennas down are 
ones experimenting with precision landing systems and pseudolites or 
people doing bistatic radar using GPS as illuminators.


As Jim points out you have to time the signals very carefully, and think 
about what the jamming signals needs to look like... you have to (very 
accurately) know where the victim is (so that you can broadcast your 
spoofing signals with the correct timing so that they arrive at the 
victim within a fraction of chip.. Let's see now, that UAV is covered 
with radar absorbing material, and the shape is such that it probably 
has a radar cross section of a few square centimeters.  How will you 
know where it is accurately enough to generate that spoofing signal 
(say, within a meter).



And, of course and it has to start synced with the real GPS signal so it 
can pull it off gradually)


Oh, and you need to be able to encrypt the fake GPS signal (assuming 
that the UAV is using a P/Y capable receiver).


AND, your spoof trajectory has to be carefully designed so that it's 
not too different from what the UAVs internal IMU is telling it.  After 
all, a failure of GPS or IMU is something they design for, so they're 
always cross checking  (just like human pilots do..   Hey, GPS is 
reading 500kts and I'm in a Piper Cherokee... I think the GPS on the blink)




Nope.. UAV engine quits, it goes into glide to the ground doing the 
least damage mode... UAV ditches in a gravel and sand covered field 
(with which much of eastern Iran is covered).



Even LightSquared, idiotic and pernicious as it may be, would have a 
hard time bringing down a UAV.



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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,


On 12/15/11 2:17 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote:

John wrote:


Iran hijacked US drone, claims Iranian engineer Tells Christian Science
Monitor that CIA's spy aircraft was 'spoofed' into landing in enemy
territory instead of its home base in Afghanistan
Iran guided the CIA's lost stealth drone to an intact landing inside
hostile territory by exploiting a navigational weakness long-known to the
US military, according to an Iranian engineer now working on the captured
drone's systems inside Iran.


-- snip --

If the report in the article is true, we deserve to lose drones to
countries like Iran for not having the sense to install an inertial
guidance system to back up and reality check the GPS. (Omitting IGS
would be such a major gaffe that it calls into question the veracity of
the Iranian claims. Were we really that stupid, or that cheap?)



Especially since you need the IMU to run the flight controls to keep the 
darn thing upright and flying straight.


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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net wrote:

 Just watch how GPS stuff will get all restricted now.

 I'm curious if the lightsquared folks will try to use this as leverage to
debunk the importance of GPS.
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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

2011-12-15 Thread bg

Having a +20m wingspan, getting very decent inertial sensors is no
problem. ca 6kg on a 5000kg(?) vehicle is no problem.


http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/ln251-digital-ins-gps/assets/ln251.pdf

--

Björn




 The problem I have seen with the light weight electronic inertial
 guidance sensors is they drift off course very quickly.  You would need
 to be able to correct them several times per minute...  Good enough to
 keep a plane flying straight and level, and in the general direction of
 target, but not good enough to hit the target...

 -Chuck Harris

 li...@lazygranch.com wrote:
 It depends on if they use the civilian or military GPS signal. Spoofing
 the
 military signal should be tough.

 Inertial guidances isn't all that heavy these days. Laser ring gyros for
 instance
 or perhaps MEMs could be used.


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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,


On 12/15/11 2:24 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

There are GPS simulators for lab use (never seen live or in a picture), I
suppose they have one connector to feed the GPS receiver antenna.
Generating in one equipment all the signals you don't need many but only
one precise timing source.




Not quite (there's a discussion of this on the list about a year or so 
ago)...


It's harder than you think to generate realistic fake signals for a 
moving target.


At work (JPL) we have a fancy Spirent GPS simulator.  And sure enough, 
it can generate all the signals your receiver would see given a 
particular path you expect your receiver to follow.


But, in order to use that to provide a spoofing signal, you'd need to 
know (fairly precisely)


a) the position and velocity of the victim
b) the position and velocity(zero) of the jamming station

You calculate what the expected time,code phase, and doppler of the GPS 
signals would be at the victim.  Then, you subtract out the time from 
jammer to victim and the doppler from jammer to victim, and use that 
generate your spoofing signal.


Then, the trajectory of the spoofed position has to be something that is 
internally consistent (i.e. the acceleration, velocity, and position all 
have to agree in the Kalman filter), and you have to continously update 
your jamming signal with continuously updated position and velocity of 
the victim.



Spoofing GPS is very hard.It was designed to be so, both for its 
original military purposes and because you want internal consistency 
checks to make sure you aren't displaying false information to a user.


Jamming GPS to deny it is relatively easy. A high power swept tone does 
it very nicely on inexpensive receivers. There are more sophisticated 
approaches.  You can buy them for $20 on the internet that plug into a 
car cigarette lighter.  You get one of these jammers, put it on an 
airplane with a big power amplifier and fly above your sovereign 
territory and you can deny GPS to pretty much everyone underneath you. 
There are receiver designs that can tolerate tone or swept or barrage 
jammers, but they are more expensive, heavier, etc, and I suspect they 
wouldn't bother on a UAV.


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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,


On 12/15/11 2:26 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:

I would say without question the answer is YES!

When the US DOD switched its backing to COTS electronics in all
of its defense hardware, it also went looking for the cheapest
way to get the most bang for the buck with defense hardware.

They certainly would be willing to save 100 lbs of inertial
guidance hardware if 8 ounces of GPS hardware could get the
plane on target.


except that off the shelf military IMUs are more like half a kilo.

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,


On 12/15/11 4:30 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Hard to detect looking horizontally, pretty easy looking straight up (or 
straight down from above it).




Hard to detect against ground clutter looking down (assuming the Iranis 
have suitable radars that can do this).  Maybe thermal signature from 
exhaust might help.



Stealthy doesn't mean invisible. Think low tech.. a bunch of guys out in 
the desert with cellphones .. I just heard it come over


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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,