Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Yes, I can well imagine The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. TANSTAAFL, -J0ohn == That's OK, the Chinese will establish a moon colony using our money and copies of our technology. Of course, it then becomes possible to deliver really large moon rocks to selected positions on the earth... who needs nuclear warheads or missiles? Excuse me, I have to go out and buy another substandard toilet seat... Don - Original Message - From: J. Forster j...@quik.com To: d.sei...@comcast.net Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Kind of sad, IMO, the way the US has squandered our space competance. FWIW, -John = The city of Sunnyvale was thinking of replacing it (the Blue Cube, etc) with car dealerships, but decided against it because only 3 dealers would fit. I was happy; who needs more car dealers? They now want to do something that won't increase traffic too much. They also just opened a bike trail in the wetlands behind Moffet (in reality, it took them a few years to remove 2 locks). There are still signs back there banning cameras (or they were there a year ago). Dave - Original Message - From: J. Forster j...@quik.com To: bro...@pacific.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, October 9, 2010 9:27:20 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver About the only doors in the place that did not have electronic combo locks were the bathrooms. Sad to see it's being shut down. IMO, it was one of the kewl places to be in the heddy early days of space. OTOH, it probably makes some sense to muve the thing into the bowels of a mountain somewhere. FWIW, -John == Hi Dave: Yes, it was right on the central expressway and was part of the GTE military electronics complex. Hi John: My recollection of the antennas at the Blue Cube is that they are out in the open. See photo at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Cube Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: We had similar dome in Sunnyvale (Ca) until the late 80's, but I can't remember who owned it, maybe GE?; it's all housing now. Dave - Original Message - From: Arthur Dentgolgarfrinc...@yahoo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 8, 2010 5:06:34 AM Subject: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Lester Veenstra-ââ,¬ÅNo, Andover Maine.ââ,¬ï¿½ The white Dacron fabric dome of the station in Andover, Maine, really stood out and could be seen by hikers on the tops of mountains miles away. Somewhere I have photos I took looking down at that white speck in the distance. On one of my hiking trips I stopped to check out the facility. The Dacron fabric dome that was held up only by air pressure (like a carnival funhouse) was still standing but was scheduled to be taken down in the near future. Below is a link to a video about Telstar that appeared on the History Channel and another link to still photos of the horn and the inside of the dome. The date given for removal in the second link was 1985 but I was thinking the dome was removed a few years later than that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyfGuSmSHWM http://users658.mainememory.net/slideshow/386/display%3Fformat=listprev_object_id=1050prev_object=pageslide_num=1.html -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
The city of Sunnyvale was thinking of replacing it (the Blue Cube, etc) with car dealerships, but decided against it because only 3 dealers would fit. I was happy; who needs more car dealers? They now want to do something that won't increase traffic too much. They also just opened a bike trail in the wetlands behind Moffet (in reality, it took them a few years to remove 2 locks). There are still signs back there banning cameras (or they were there a year ago). Dave - Original Message - From: J. Forster j...@quik.com To: bro...@pacific.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, October 9, 2010 9:27:20 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver About the only doors in the place that did not have electronic combo locks were the bathrooms. Sad to see it's being shut down. IMO, it was one of the kewl places to be in the heddy early days of space. OTOH, it probably makes some sense to muve the thing into the bowels of a mountain somewhere. FWIW, -John == Hi Dave: Yes, it was right on the central expressway and was part of the GTE military electronics complex. Hi John: My recollection of the antennas at the Blue Cube is that they are out in the open. See photo at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Cube Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: We had similar dome in Sunnyvale (Ca) until the late 80's, but I can't remember who owned it, maybe GE?; it's all housing now. Dave - Original Message - From: Arthur Dentgolgarfrinc...@yahoo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 8, 2010 5:06:34 AM Subject: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Lester Veenstra-“No, Andover Maine.� The white Dacron fabric dome of the station in Andover, Maine, really stood out and could be seen by hikers on the tops of mountains miles away. Somewhere I have photos I took looking down at that white speck in the distance. On one of my hiking trips I stopped to check out the facility. The Dacron fabric dome that was held up only by air pressure (like a carnival funhouse) was still standing but was scheduled to be taken down in the near future. Below is a link to a video about Telstar that appeared on the History Channel and another link to still photos of the horn and the inside of the dome. The date given for removal in the second link was 1985 but I was thinking the dome was removed a few years later than that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyfGuSmSHWM http://users658.mainememory.net/slideshow/386/display%3Fformat=listprev_object_id=1050prev_object=pageslide_num=1.html -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Kind of sad, IMO, the way the US has squandered our space competance. FWIW, -John = The city of Sunnyvale was thinking of replacing it (the Blue Cube, etc) with car dealerships, but decided against it because only 3 dealers would fit. I was happy; who needs more car dealers? They now want to do something that won't increase traffic too much. They also just opened a bike trail in the wetlands behind Moffet (in reality, it took them a few years to remove 2 locks). There are still signs back there banning cameras (or they were there a year ago). Dave - Original Message - From: J. Forster j...@quik.com To: bro...@pacific.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, October 9, 2010 9:27:20 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver About the only doors in the place that did not have electronic combo locks were the bathrooms. Sad to see it's being shut down. IMO, it was one of the kewl places to be in the heddy early days of space. OTOH, it probably makes some sense to muve the thing into the bowels of a mountain somewhere. FWIW, -John == Hi Dave: Yes, it was right on the central expressway and was part of the GTE military electronics complex. Hi John: My recollection of the antennas at the Blue Cube is that they are out in the open. See photo at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Cube Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: We had similar dome in Sunnyvale (Ca) until the late 80's, but I can't remember who owned it, maybe GE?; it's all housing now. Dave - Original Message - From: Arthur Dentgolgarfrinc...@yahoo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 8, 2010 5:06:34 AM Subject: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Lester Veenstra-ââ¬ÅNo, Andover Maine.ââ¬ï¿½ The white Dacron fabric dome of the station in Andover, Maine, really stood out and could be seen by hikers on the tops of mountains miles away. Somewhere I have photos I took looking down at that white speck in the distance. On one of my hiking trips I stopped to check out the facility. The Dacron fabric dome that was held up only by air pressure (like a carnival funhouse) was still standing but was scheduled to be taken down in the near future. Below is a link to a video about Telstar that appeared on the History Channel and another link to still photos of the horn and the inside of the dome. The date given for removal in the second link was 1985 but I was thinking the dome was removed a few years later than that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyfGuSmSHWM http://users658.mainememory.net/slideshow/386/display%3Fformat=listprev_object_id=1050prev_object=pageslide_num=1.html -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
That's OK, the Chinese will establish a moon colony using our money and copies of our technology. Of course, it then becomes possible to deliver really large moon rocks to selected positions on the earth... who needs nuclear warheads or missiles? Excuse me, I have to go out and buy another substandard toilet seat... Don - Original Message - From: J. Forster j...@quik.com To: d.sei...@comcast.net Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Kind of sad, IMO, the way the US has squandered our space competance. FWIW, -John = The city of Sunnyvale was thinking of replacing it (the Blue Cube, etc) with car dealerships, but decided against it because only 3 dealers would fit. I was happy; who needs more car dealers? They now want to do something that won't increase traffic too much. They also just opened a bike trail in the wetlands behind Moffet (in reality, it took them a few years to remove 2 locks). There are still signs back there banning cameras (or they were there a year ago). Dave - Original Message - From: J. Forster j...@quik.com To: bro...@pacific.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, October 9, 2010 9:27:20 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver About the only doors in the place that did not have electronic combo locks were the bathrooms. Sad to see it's being shut down. IMO, it was one of the kewl places to be in the heddy early days of space. OTOH, it probably makes some sense to muve the thing into the bowels of a mountain somewhere. FWIW, -John == Hi Dave: Yes, it was right on the central expressway and was part of the GTE military electronics complex. Hi John: My recollection of the antennas at the Blue Cube is that they are out in the open. See photo at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Cube Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: We had similar dome in Sunnyvale (Ca) until the late 80's, but I can't remember who owned it, maybe GE?; it's all housing now. Dave - Original Message - From: Arthur Dentgolgarfrinc...@yahoo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 8, 2010 5:06:34 AM Subject: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Lester Veenstra-ââ,¬ÅNo, Andover Maine.ââ,¬ï¿½ The white Dacron fabric dome of the station in Andover, Maine, really stood out and could be seen by hikers on the tops of mountains miles away. Somewhere I have photos I took looking down at that white speck in the distance. On one of my hiking trips I stopped to check out the facility. The Dacron fabric dome that was held up only by air pressure (like a carnival funhouse) was still standing but was scheduled to be taken down in the near future. Below is a link to a video about Telstar that appeared on the History Channel and another link to still photos of the horn and the inside of the dome. The date given for removal in the second link was 1985 but I was thinking the dome was removed a few years later than that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyfGuSmSHWM http://users658.mainememory.net/slideshow/386/display%3Fformat=listprev_object_id=1050prev_object=pageslide_num=1.html -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Well I remember them at least I think we are speaking of the same domes. The ones I am thinking of are just south of moffet field though those were actually dishes. Anyhow being a bit interested and in the navy at the time. Drove on to moffet field no problem with a navy truck and drove through an additional area. Got pretty close. But don't know why someone did not like it and escorted the poor dumb guy out of the area. That was a kinder gentler time. Today you truly would be screwed. Regards On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Rex r...@sonic.net wrote: You mean near the intersection of 401 and 537? Close to 385 also. (I took the liberty of keeping up the code and adding 300 to everything.) -Rex On 10/8/2010 6:26 PM, J. Forster wrote: Where? Off 401 near the Blue Cube? -John = We had similar dome in Sunnyvale (Ca)Â until the late 80's, but I can't remember who owned it, maybe GE?; it's all housing now. Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Hi Dave: Yes, it was right on the central expressway and was part of the GTE military electronics complex. Hi John: My recollection of the antennas at the Blue Cube is that they are out in the open. See photo at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Cube Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: We had similar dome in Sunnyvale (Ca) until the late 80's, but I can't remember who owned it, maybe GE?; it's all housing now. Dave - Original Message - From: Arthur Dentgolgarfrinc...@yahoo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 8, 2010 5:06:34 AM Subject: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Lester Veenstra-“No, Andover Maine.” The white Dacron fabric dome of the station in Andover, Maine, really stood out and could be seen by hikers on the tops of mountains miles away. Somewhere I have photos I took looking down at that white speck in the distance. On one of my hiking trips I stopped to check out the facility. The Dacron fabric dome that was held up only by air pressure (like a carnival funhouse) was still standing but was scheduled to be taken down in the near future. Below is a link to a video about Telstar that appeared on the History Channel and another link to still photos of the horn and the inside of the dome. The date given for removal in the second link was 1985 but I was thinking the dome was removed a few years later than that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyfGuSmSHWM http://users658.mainememory.net/slideshow/386/display%3Fformat=listprev_object_id=1050prev_object=pageslide_num=1.html -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
The reason for the dishes could well have been for comunications with the Blue Cube as that place was/is? the headquarters for the Air Force Satellite Control Facility. Maybe you remember The Brass Rail... the nudie bar across the street from the Lockheed main gate? -John Well I remember them at least I think we are speaking of the same domes. The ones I am thinking of are just south of moffet field though those were actually dishes. Anyhow being a bit interested and in the navy at the time. Drove on to moffet field no problem with a navy truck and drove through an additional area. Got pretty close. But don't know why someone did not like it and escorted the poor dumb guy out of the area. That was a kinder gentler time. Today you truly would be screwed. Regards On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Rex r...@sonic.net wrote: You mean near the intersection of 401 and 537? Close to 385 also. (I took the liberty of keeping up the code and adding 300 to everything.) -Rex On 10/8/2010 6:26 PM, J. Forster wrote: Where? Off 401 near the Blue Cube? -John = We had similar dome in Sunnyvale (Ca)Â until the late 80's, but I can't remember who owned it, maybe GE?; it's all housing now. Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
About the only doors in the place that did not have electronic combo locks were the bathrooms. Sad to see it's being shut down. IMO, it was one of the kewl places to be in the heddy early days of space. OTOH, it probably makes some sense to muve the thing into the bowels of a mountain somewhere. FWIW, -John == Hi Dave: Yes, it was right on the central expressway and was part of the GTE military electronics complex. Hi John: My recollection of the antennas at the Blue Cube is that they are out in the open. See photo at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Cube Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: We had similar dome in Sunnyvale (Ca) until the late 80's, but I can't remember who owned it, maybe GE?; it's all housing now. Dave - Original Message - From: Arthur Dentgolgarfrinc...@yahoo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 8, 2010 5:06:34 AM Subject: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Lester Veenstra-âNo, Andover Maine.â The white Dacron fabric dome of the station in Andover, Maine, really stood out and could be seen by hikers on the tops of mountains miles away. Somewhere I have photos I took looking down at that white speck in the distance. On one of my hiking trips I stopped to check out the facility. The Dacron fabric dome that was held up only by air pressure (like a carnival funhouse) was still standing but was scheduled to be taken down in the near future. Below is a link to a video about Telstar that appeared on the History Channel and another link to still photos of the horn and the inside of the dome. The date given for removal in the second link was 1985 but I was thinking the dome was removed a few years later than that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyfGuSmSHWM http://users658.mainememory.net/slideshow/386/display%3Fformat=listprev_object_id=1050prev_object=pageslide_num=1.html -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Hi John: Was at the Brass Rail decade ago. Later read the Russians were also there during the cold war. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com J. Forster wrote: The reason for the dishes could well have been for comunications with the Blue Cube as that place was/is? the headquarters for the Air Force Satellite Control Facility. Maybe you remember The Brass Rail... the nudie bar across the street from the Lockheed main gate? -John Well I remember them at least I think we are speaking of the same domes. The ones I am thinking of are just south of moffet field though those were actually dishes. Anyhow being a bit interested and in the navy at the time. Drove on to moffet field no problem with a navy truck and drove through an additional area. Got pretty close. But don't know why someone did not like it and escorted the poor dumb guy out of the area. That was a kinder gentler time. Today you truly would be screwed. Regards On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Rexr...@sonic.net wrote: You mean near the intersection of 401 and 537? Close to 385 also. (I took the liberty of keeping up the code and adding 300 to everything.) -Rex On 10/8/2010 6:26 PM, J. Forster wrote: Where? Off 401 near the Blue Cube? -John = We had similar dome in Sunnyvale (Ca)Â until the late 80's, but I can't remember who owned it, maybe GE?; it's all housing now. Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
I have no doubt it's be a good snooping ground for the Ruskies. Lotsa guys from spooky places, booze, and naked women. Lunchtime featured a gal with a big snake... and little else. LoL. -John Hi John: Was at the Brass Rail decade ago. Later read the Russians were also there during the cold war. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com J. Forster wrote: The reason for the dishes could well have been for comunications with the Blue Cube as that place was/is? the headquarters for the Air Force Satellite Control Facility. Maybe you remember The Brass Rail... the nudie bar across the street from the Lockheed main gate? -John Well I remember them at least I think we are speaking of the same domes. The ones I am thinking of are just south of moffet field though those were actually dishes. Anyhow being a bit interested and in the navy at the time. Drove on to moffet field no problem with a navy truck and drove through an additional area. Got pretty close. But don't know why someone did not like it and escorted the poor dumb guy out of the area. That was a kinder gentler time. Today you truly would be screwed. Regards On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Rexr...@sonic.net wrote: You mean near the intersection of 401 and 537? Close to 385 also. (I took the liberty of keeping up the code and adding 300 to everything.) -Rex On 10/8/2010 6:26 PM, J. Forster wrote: Where? Off 401 near the Blue Cube? -John = We had similar dome in Sunnyvale (Ca)Â until the late 80's, but I can't remember who owned it, maybe GE?; it's all housing now. Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
On 10/9/2010 7:40 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi Dave: Yes, it was right on the central expressway and was part of the GTE military electronics complex. That building existed from 1963 until 1990 at the GTE Sylvania complex that was at 500 Evelyn... right at Central Expressway and 237. Can't dig up any good photos of it in a cursory search, though. Matthew Kaufman ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
On 10/9/2010 11:43 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: On 10/9/2010 7:40 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi Dave: Yes, it was right on the central expressway and was part of the GTE military electronics complex. That building existed from 1963 until 1990 at the GTE Sylvania complex that was at 500 Evelyn... right at Central Expressway and 237. Can't dig up any good photos of it in a cursory search, though. 37 23 19.60 N x 122 03 27.00 W and visible on Google Earth if you switch to the October 1991 image set. Matthew Kaufman ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
We had similar dome in Sunnyvale (Ca) until the late 80's, but I can't remember who owned it, maybe GE?; it's all housing now. Dave - Original Message - From: Arthur Dent golgarfrinc...@yahoo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 8, 2010 5:06:34 AM Subject: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Lester Veenstra-“No, Andover Maine.” The white Dacron fabric dome of the station in Andover, Maine, really stood out and could be seen by hikers on the tops of mountains miles away. Somewhere I have photos I took looking down at that white speck in the distance. On one of my hiking trips I stopped to check out the facility. The Dacron fabric dome that was held up only by air pressure (like a carnival funhouse) was still standing but was scheduled to be taken down in the near future. Below is a link to a video about Telstar that appeared on the History Channel and another link to still photos of the horn and the inside of the dome. The date given for removal in the second link was 1985 but I was thinking the dome was removed a few years later than that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyfGuSmSHWM http://users658.mainememory.net/slideshow/386/display%3Fformat=listprev_object_id=1050prev_object=pageslide_num=1.html -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
I have a section of the radome material, and the aluminum reflector surface (honeycomb backing structure) at home. Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-929-8141 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of d.sei...@comcast.net Sent: 09 October 2010 10:42 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver We had similar dome in Sunnyvale (Ca) until the late 80's, but I can't remember who owned it, maybe GE?; it's all housing now. Dave - Original Message - From: Arthur Dent golgarfrinc...@yahoo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 8, 2010 5:06:34 AM Subject: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Lester Veenstra-No, Andover Maine. The white Dacron fabric dome of the station in Andover, Maine, really stood out and could be seen by hikers on the tops of mountains miles away. Somewhere I have photos I took looking down at that white speck in the distance. On one of my hiking trips I stopped to check out the facility. The Dacron fabric dome that was held up only by air pressure (like a carnival funhouse) was still standing but was scheduled to be taken down in the near future. Below is a link to a video about Telstar that appeared on the History Channel and another link to still photos of the horn and the inside of the dome. The date given for removal in the second link was 1985 but I was thinking the dome was removed a few years later than that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyfGuSmSHWM http://users658.mainememory.net/slideshow/386/display%3Fformat=listprev_obj ect_id=1050prev_object=pageslide_num=1.html -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Where? Off 401 near the Blue Cube? -John = We had similar dome in Sunnyvale (Ca) until the late 80's, but I can't remember who owned it, maybe GE?; it's all housing now. Dave - Original Message - From: Arthur Dent golgarfrinc...@yahoo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 8, 2010 5:06:34 AM Subject: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Lester Veenstra-âNo, Andover Maine.â The white Dacron fabric dome of the station in Andover, Maine, really stood out and could be seen by hikers on the tops of mountains miles away. Somewhere I have photos I took looking down at that white speck in the distance. On one of my hiking trips I stopped to check out the facility. The Dacron fabric dome that was held up only by air pressure (like a carnival funhouse) was still standing but was scheduled to be taken down in the near future. Below is a link to a video about Telstar that appeared on the History Channel and another link to still photos of the horn and the inside of the dome. The date given for removal in the second link was 1985 but I was thinking the dome was removed a few years later than that.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyfGuSmSHWM http://users658.mainememory.net/slideshow/386/display%3Fformat=listprev_object_id=1050prev_object=pageslide_num=1.html -Arthur          ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
You mean near the intersection of 401 and 537? Close to 385 also. (I took the liberty of keeping up the code and adding 300 to everything.) -Rex On 10/8/2010 6:26 PM, J. Forster wrote: Where? Off 401 near the Blue Cube? -John = We had similar dome in Sunnyvale (Ca)Â until the late 80's, but I can't remember who owned it, maybe GE?; it's all housing now. Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Hi The one thing that an alternator system had available was *power*. They are fairly efficient and you put lots of horsepower into them. Numbers in the 100's of KW come to mind What we're talking about here is more or less a page from the history of radio in the early 1900's. People that were used to the requirements of a VLF system simply didn't believe that a few watts would get very far at short wave. It took a bunch of crazies to prove them wrong ... Bob On Oct 6, 2010, at 8:30 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: On 10/05/2010 11:52 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Ok, the next layer to this onion is the antenna. At 100KC your antenna is 35X smaller than it is on 80 meters foot for foot. In other words, your 100' tall vertical on 80 equates to a3 foot tall antenna at 100 KC. QRP on 80 with a 3' transmit antenna anybody? Been there done that, not much range at all. At VLF forget about transmitting with a horizontal antenna unless you are airborne. It's not just the antenna, the ground counts as well. If you are by the seashore that may not be a big deal. If you are inland, prepare to lay many very long radials. -- After that you hit signal to noise. The receivers worked as well as they did because they had an enormous signal to work with. There's an amazing amount of crud running around down below 200 KHz these days. Even for timing you need a lot of signal to get good results. Bob KB8TQ Ham for way more than 30 years Well, in the OLD days, Alexanderson extended the antenna using a coil. That's how the 127 m high antenna towers of Grimeton transmits the 16,7 kHz of 18 km wavelength signal across the atlantic. The modulation was CW in 80-speed, but anyway. That transmitter has several interesting features in it for its time... like feed-forward frequency stabilisation. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Bob Camp wrote: Hi The one thing that an alternator system had available was *power*. They are fairly efficient and you put lots of horsepower into them. Numbers in the 100's of KW come to mind What we're talking about here is more or less a page from the history of radio in the early 1900's. People that were used to the requirements of a VLF system simply didn't believe that a few watts would get very far at short wave. It took a bunch of crazies to prove them wrong ... Bob So even if your antenna system were 1% efficient (which would be doing well) you could still radiate kilowatts. There was an article in IEEE Proceedings back in the 70s(?) describing the VLF comm system and what was interesting is that the propagation losses were quite low (150dB-160dB, I think), the background noise at the frequency was low, so you didn't need huge radiated powers to make the system work. I seem to recall that the big antenna near the Great Lakes radiated 1 watt, but required something like a megawatt into the antenna ( a series of buried wires) to get that radiated power. In the early days of wireless, ships had 500 or 1000 Watt transmitters, rated by power input to the system. Hence the US amateur radio limit of 1kW DC power to the final stage, so interference was limited. The amateurs were limited, the ships have a minimum power requirement. I think a lot of the astounding performance (to folks at the time) on 200m and down wasn't so much because propagation is better, but because it's easier to radiate the power efficiently when the frequency goes up. This was back in the days 20s when the long haul RF links were running at 10s of kHz I was surprised to see how late it was before the first *wired* transatlantic phone call was made: 1956 ($12/3 minutes, 36 lines available). the first Telstar call wasn't that much later in 1962. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. -John I was surprised to see how late it was before the first *wired* transatlantic phone call was made: 1956 ($12/3 minutes, 36 lines available). the first Telstar call wasn't that much later in 1962. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote: Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice fold-outs on control-panels etc. They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit. Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
And an Astounding Science Fiction novella --the trouble with telstar-- Don - Original Message - From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote: Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice fold-outs on control-panels etc. They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit. Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Could you tell me which book you have on mind ? I'd love to read the story. I visited Telstar ground station in Pleumeur-Bodou, France once. There is museum there now, called Cite des Telecoms. They preserved original horn-like antenna used for Telstar communication and lots of original equipment. If I remember correctly there is even old hydrogen maser displayed. Place worth seeing. BR, Piotr, sp3ukk On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote: Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice fold-outs on control-panels etc. They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit. Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
There was / is? a ground station near Andover Massachusetts also. The antenna was called a Hogg Horn. -John === Could you tell me which book you have on mind ? I'd love to read the story. I visited Telstar ground station in Pleumeur-Bodou, France once. There is museum there now, called Cite des Telecoms. They preserved original horn-like antenna used for Telstar communication and lots of original equipment. If I remember correctly there is even old hydrogen maser displayed. Place worth seeing. BR, Piotr, sp3ukk On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote: Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice fold-outs on control-panels etc. They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit. Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Telstar ... now that brings back memories. Whenever it was within range, they would interrupt TV broadcasts and show whatever was being relayed (poor choice of word, I know). I used to leave the TV on just to catch whatever they had on. One afternoon, while I was in another room, I heard a switch in the telecast and heard the most angelic voices singing. I knew exactly who they were in an instant ... the Santa Cecilia Choir from the Vatican. They had made arrangements for them to be in the Sistine Chapel just for this telecast. They panned the Chapel Ceiling during the telecast. This is what television was invented for. Now we have The Greatest Loser ... What a waste. 73, Dick, W1KSZ -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Sent: Oct 7, 2010 3:02 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver There was / is? a ground station near Andover Massachusetts also. The antenna was called a Hogg Horn. -John === Could you tell me which book you have on mind ? I'd love to read the story. I visited Telstar ground station in Pleumeur-Bodou, France once. There is museum there now, called Cite des Telecoms. They preserved original horn-like antenna used for Telstar communication and lots of original equipment. If I remember correctly there is even old hydrogen maser displayed. Place worth seeing. BR, Piotr, sp3ukk On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote: Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice fold-outs on control-panels etc. They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit. Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Hi Magnus its was a pity they didn't manage to communicate with some of my office collegues so as to to confirm the hand of the polarisation they were using though :-)) Goodhilly changed the feed for the other polarisation on the day of the first test, and it was a bit of a TV disaster. Lanion had a horn so had the same sytem. The horns are long gone except for the microwave background experiment but the Goonhilly Down dish called Arthur after a certain medieval king who spent his time whopping Danes :-)) I dont think the dish still carries traffic but it is capable, fully steerables are not needed for telecoms now. Arthur is now a historic monument so we do get some things right !! Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote: Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice fold-outs on control-panels etc. They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit. Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Long long gone completely though I think a plack is there. It was on chronicle several years ago. On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 6:02 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: There was / is? a ground station near Andover Massachusetts also. The antenna was called a Hogg Horn. -John === Could you tell me which book you have on mind ? I'd love to read the story. I visited Telstar ground station in Pleumeur-Bodou, France once. There is museum there now, called Cite des Telecoms. They preserved original horn-like antenna used for Telstar communication and lots of original equipment. If I remember correctly there is even old hydrogen maser displayed. Place worth seeing. BR, Piotr, sp3ukk On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote: Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice fold-outs on control-panels etc. They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit. Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
j...@quik.com said: There was / is? a ground station near Andover Massachusetts also. The antenna was called a Hogg Horn. Andover Massachusetts or Andover Maine? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andover_Earth_Station Hogg seems to be the guy (or main guy) who put a parabolic reflector on a horn. If you rotate the whole thing around the Z axis and and then rotate the horn around the X axis, you can aim at anyplace in the sky. http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/butowsky5/astro4k.htm -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
And I have sitting on my desk of the hand made (at Bell Labs) klystron local oscillators used in the FM-FDM equipment at Andover Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-929-8141 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson Sent: 08 October 2010 06:17 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote: Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice fold-outs on control-panels etc. They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit. Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
And at Andover, Comsat took it all down and cut it up to save taxes rather than save history. Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-929-8141 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Piotr Kolodziejczyk Sent: 08 October 2010 07:32 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Could you tell me which book you have on mind ? I'd love to read the story. I visited Telstar ground station in Pleumeur-Bodou, France once. There is museum there now, called Cite des Telecoms. They preserved original horn-like antenna used for Telstar communication and lots of original equipment. If I remember correctly there is even old hydrogen maser displayed. Place worth seeing. BR, Piotr, sp3ukk On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote: Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice fold-outs on control-panels etc. They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit. Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
No, Andover Maine. Hogg horn (very low sidelobes) was built by Bell Labs for Andover Maine and PB, France. The English, being English, had to design and build their own antenna at Goonhilly. They got the circular polarity wrong so missed the first linkup, while the French were in solid. Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-929-8141 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: 08 October 2010 08:02 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver There was / is? a ground station near Andover Massachusetts also. The antenna was called a Hogg Horn. -John === Could you tell me which book you have on mind ? I'd love to read the story. I visited Telstar ground station in Pleumeur-Bodou, France once. There is museum there now, called Cite des Telecoms. They preserved original horn-like antenna used for Telstar communication and lots of original equipment. If I remember correctly there is even old hydrogen maser displayed. Place worth seeing. BR, Piotr, sp3ukk On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote: Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice fold-outs on control-panels etc. They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit. Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
That's the same short-sighted, profit is king mentality that resulted in the demolition of the Metropolitan Opera's Old House. So much history in that building, just bull- dozed for an office building (or some such). 73, Dick, W1KSZ -Original Message- From: Lester Veenstra les...@veenstras.com Sent: Oct 7, 2010 4:34 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver And at Andover, Comsat took it all down and cut it up to save taxes rather than save history. Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-929-8141 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Piotr Kolodziejczyk Sent: 08 October 2010 07:32 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Could you tell me which book you have on mind ? I'd love to read the story. I visited Telstar ground station in Pleumeur-Bodou, France once. There is museum there now, called Cite des Telecoms. They preserved original horn-like antenna used for Telstar communication and lots of original equipment. If I remember correctly there is even old hydrogen maser displayed. Place worth seeing. BR, Piotr, sp3ukk On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote: Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice fold-outs on control-panels etc. They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit. Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Far as I know the telstar station was in andiver maine. Believe my bell labs journals confirm that. Additionally those journals describe all kinds of details of the telstar program. On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Lester Veenstra les...@veenstras.comwrote: No, Andover Maine. Hogg horn (very low sidelobes) was built by Bell Labs for Andover Maine and PB, France. The English, being English, had to design and build their own antenna at Goonhilly. They got the circular polarity wrong so missed the first linkup, while the French were in solid. Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-929-8141 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: 08 October 2010 08:02 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver There was / is? a ground station near Andover Massachusetts also. The antenna was called a Hogg Horn. -John === Could you tell me which book you have on mind ? I'd love to read the story. I visited Telstar ground station in Pleumeur-Bodou, France once. There is museum there now, called Cite des Telecoms. They preserved original horn-like antenna used for Telstar communication and lots of original equipment. If I remember correctly there is even old hydrogen maser displayed. Place worth seeing. BR, Piotr, sp3ukk On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote: Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice fold-outs on control-panels etc. They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit. Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
On 10/08/2010 02:08 AM, paul swed wrote: Far as I know the telstar station was in andiver maine. Believe my bell labs journals confirm that. Additionally those journals describe all kinds of details of the telstar program. Being Bell Labs they included some long-term radiation tests of semiconductors on the outer shell, being monitored over the telemetry signals. Need to dig up the story about a command misshap which required them to rebuild the command transmitter to send an illegal command that they new would set the state right and enable things back again... Lots of gory details. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
I visited Pleumeur Baudou shortly after it opened, my father was an engineer with the French Telecom ministry (PTT at the time) and he knew people there. I remember the gigantic offset horn and the maser amplifier. Too bad I do not have pictures from this event. Didier Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Piotr Kolodziejczyk sp3...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 23:32:23 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Could you tell me which book you have on mind ? I'd love to read the story. I visited Telstar ground station in Pleumeur-Bodou, France once. There is museum there now, called Cite des Telecoms. They preserved original horn-like antenna used for Telstar communication and lots of original equipment. If I remember correctly there is even old hydrogen maser displayed. Place worth seeing. BR, Piotr, sp3ukk On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote: Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice fold-outs on control-panels etc. They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit. Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Oops. I didn't know there was an Andover ME. Thanks, -John === j...@quik.com said: There was / is? a ground station near Andover Massachusetts also. The antenna was called a Hogg Horn. Andover Massachusetts or Andover Maine? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andover_Earth_Station Hogg seems to be the guy (or main guy) who put a parabolic reflector on a horn. If you rotate the whole thing around the Z axis and and then rotate the horn around the X axis, you can aim at anyplace in the sky. http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/butowsky5/astro4k.htm -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Indeed its a common mistake that everyone thinks its ma. Andover me was chosen because its was miles from any place and was in a hole essentially. They strung microwave towers to the place. On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:06 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: Oops. I didn't know there was an Andover ME. Thanks, -John === j...@quik.com said: There was / is? a ground station near Andover Massachusetts also. The antenna was called a Hogg Horn. Andover Massachusetts or Andover Maine? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andover_Earth_Station Hogg seems to be the guy (or main guy) who put a parabolic reflector on a horn. If you rotate the whole thing around the Z axis and and then rotate the horn around the X axis, you can aim at anyplace in the sky. http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/butowsky5/astro4k.htm -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
How much history was lost when whatever stood before the Old House was demolished and bull dozed so that an Opera house (or some such) could be built? We are all nostalgic about the past, but doesn't the future deserve to be born? -Chuck Harris Richard W. Solomon wrote: That's the same short-sighted, profit is king mentality that resulted in the demolition of the Metropolitan Opera's Old House. So much history in that building, just bull- dozed for an office building (or some such). 73, Dick, W1KSZ -Original Message- From: Lester Veenstrales...@veenstras.com Sent: Oct 7, 2010 4:34 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver And at Andover, Comsat took it all down and cut it up to save taxes rather than save history. Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-929-8141 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Piotr Kolodziejczyk Sent: 08 October 2010 07:32 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Could you tell me which book you have on mind ? I'd love to read the story. I visited Telstar ground station in Pleumeur-Bodou, France once. There is museum there now, called Cite des Telecoms. They preserved original horn-like antenna used for Telstar communication and lots of original equipment. If I remember correctly there is even old hydrogen maser displayed. Place worth seeing. BR, Piotr, sp3ukk On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote: Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it. Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice fold-outs on control-panels etc. They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit. Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
In message 60aa6fcf-cf71-4e4c-a7cb-aab9f11a2...@rtty.us, Bob Camp writes: The other answer is that DSP was not really available when the original waveforms were developed. A modern system would not have a must be able to work with manual delay lines and an oscilloscope requirement on it. Well, more that LORAN-C was a navigation system primarily intended for planes, so a high update rate was necessary. Having established that, and high stability being a component, Loran-C got (ab)used to also remotely steer clocks of low stability, for instance in the Nasa Apollo program. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
On 10/05/2010 11:52 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Ok, the next layer to this onion is the antenna. At 100KC your antenna is 35X smaller than it is on 80 meters foot for foot. In other words, your 100' tall vertical on 80 equates to a3 foot tall antenna at 100 KC. QRP on 80 with a 3' transmit antenna anybody? Been there done that, not much range at all. At VLF forget about transmitting with a horizontal antenna unless you are airborne. It's not just the antenna, the ground counts as well. If you are by the seashore that may not be a big deal. If you are inland, prepare to lay many very long radials. -- After that you hit signal to noise. The receivers worked as well as they did because they had an enormous signal to work with. There's an amazing amount of crud running around down below 200 KHz these days. Even for timing you need a lot of signal to get good results. Bob KB8TQ Ham for way more than 30 years Well, in the OLD days, Alexanderson extended the antenna using a coil. That's how the 127 m high antenna towers of Grimeton transmits the 16,7 kHz of 18 km wavelength signal across the atlantic. The modulation was CW in 80-speed, but anyway. That transmitter has several interesting features in it for its time... like feed-forward frequency stabilisation. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
The coil allowed an ok match, but an antenna that is a tiny fraction of a wavelength is going to be inefficient from ohmic loss in the antenna. You could use a superconductor, but that brings another set of problems (matching networks that also have low loss and can adapt to the changing impedance of the antenna) On Oct 6, 2010, at 5:30 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 10/05/2010 11:52 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Ok, the next layer to this onion is the antenna. At 100KC your antenna is 35X smaller than it is on 80 meters foot for foot. In other words, your 100' tall vertical on 80 equates to a3 foot tall antenna at 100 KC. QRP on 80 with a 3' transmit antenna anybody? Been there done that, not much range at all. At VLF forget about transmitting with a horizontal antenna unless you are airborne. It's not just the antenna, the ground counts as well. If you are by the seashore that may not be a big deal. If you are inland, prepare to lay many very long radials. -- After that you hit signal to noise. The receivers worked as well as they did because they had an enormous signal to work with. There's an amazing amount of crud running around down below 200 KHz these days. Even for timing you need a lot of signal to get good results. Bob KB8TQ Ham for way more than 30 years Well, in the OLD days, Alexanderson extended the antenna using a coil. That's how the 127 m high antenna towers of Grimeton transmits the 16,7 kHz of 18 km wavelength signal across the atlantic. The modulation was CW in 80-speed, but anyway. That transmitter has several interesting features in it for its time... like feed-forward frequency stabilisation. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Actually building a loran recvr is not that hard if its only purpose is timing/frequency. I lived in Michigan at the time and used the great lakes chain. You only had to pick the strongest single station. So essentially a simple front end and filters a bit like wwvb but much broader band. No special xtal filters. There was a professor Ralph Burhans (Deceased now) from Ohio State that published several very good articles. The hardest part was building an all cmos GRI chain and then sampling detector. amplification and such for locking the xtal oscillator. It worked really well compared to the back then very weak wwvb signal in Mi. I used that rcvr in Mi and CT. for 10-15 years. Then about 2000 there was a loran is dead scare and the austron 2100s showed up at Hamfests. I hit the jackpot 2 of them for $50. Both worked and mint condition. Well needless to say the old home brew went away. Liked the austrons so well, stumbled into a 2000c 5years ago and got it cooking. Now thats a real loran timing recvr. Lots of fiddling to make it work. Not for the faint of heart. The 2100s are essentially several button pushes and you are in business. With the end of loran c hated to trash them so designed the very simple few common ICs like 3 or 4 loran c simulator (design is free and on the net Index of /simloran http://n4iqt.com/simloran/) to at least allow all of them to act as very nice phase comparators. Regards Paul. On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 9:09 PM, Perry Sandeen sandee...@yahoo.com wrote: Gents, Wrote: Its not just diurnal shift it plain old jumps anytime. Have been monitoring for periods from the east coast using both a Tracor 577 and 2 X HP vlf117 rcvrs. All kinds of stuff occur. Reply: That’s fine equipment that you have. What I don’t know but have to find out if the newer semi-conductors would make a better receiver. Trash factor acknowledged. Wrote: I like you want a second source but will say I was spoiled by loran. Maybe I did not realize how much. Even though my first loran timing recvr was homebrew in about 1989 as I recall. Reply: I’m very impressed that you could make a homebrew Loran receiver Wrote: How far are you from wwvb?? Reply: I’m 1274 Miles according to Yahoo maps. By the crow flying probably 1100 miles. I live in Manchester, TN. According to the NIST map I’m in the middle of the 100 micro-volt per meter zone, so I’m probably better than that but I don’t know by how much better yet. Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Hi The bandwidth of anything close to a Loran signal is a *lot* wider than any of the ham bands contemplated below 1 MHz. There's the minor issue of getting the power company to put in a cable to the house for your 1 Mw (capital M not lower case M) transmitter. Even though it's pule, the RF power is way beyond the sub 1 W outputs currently contemplated on those bands. Signal to noise *does* matter. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 12:20 AM, J. Forster wrote: a) broadcasts aren't legal for US hams b) ionospheric uncertainty in the skywave path makes this no better than WWV c) Whats wrong with GPS and/or WWV and/or CHU or whatever? d) A cheap Rb would give you a local reference that is much better than what you could do with receiving something via skywave. If you want something that isn't run by governments,and is a technical challenge, how about pulsars? I'd guess (not having looked into it at all) that is would be cheaper to set up a station to receive pulsars than to run a Cs standard. Pulsars take a big dish and they aren't all that good as a standard. A friend of mine proved that at Aricebo years and years ago. While I fully sympathize with the stand alone approach (that's one of the appeals of HF comms in general.. you aren't depending on anyone else's infrastructure), I don't know that setting up a time standards station fits in with that.. I've vaguely heard that there are some new ham allocations in the works below 500 KHz. How about setting up a beacon network that works like LORAN, but at a different frequency. A simple downconverter could then feed the signal into a LORAN receiver? FWIW, -John == ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
In message b69fdcaf-2b39-4575-b5cd-66a87fa1b...@rtty.us, Bob Camp writes: Even though it's pule, the RF power is way beyond the sub 1 W outputs currently contemplated on those bands. Signal to noise *does* matter. You know, there are other ways to skin that cat these days. Old-time signals had to be grossly inefficient because the receivers were inefficient, in particular the ear-wristwatch kind of time receivers. These days we have spread-spectrum modulation, and if our only goal is to transmit a timestamp, you can spread pretty wide and far and need very little power to produce a receiveable signal at long distances. The QRSS hams are playing around with numbers like 17,840,000 miles per watt, and all it takes to turn that into a time/frequency services is a spreading function with a really good autocorrelation. Obviously, you will not get second by second measurements, but the measurements you do get, say once per hour, will have much higher precision because of the averaging that goes into them. And equally obvious: propagation effects will take their toll, but still... Somebody with a license should try that on 137kHz... Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Hi If you were starting from scratch there are a lot of things you could do. If the intent is to put out something a Loran receiver will recognize ... not so much. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 6:44 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message b69fdcaf-2b39-4575-b5cd-66a87fa1b...@rtty.us, Bob Camp writes: Even though it's pule, the RF power is way beyond the sub 1 W outputs currently contemplated on those bands. Signal to noise *does* matter. You know, there are other ways to skin that cat these days. Old-time signals had to be grossly inefficient because the receivers were inefficient, in particular the ear-wristwatch kind of time receivers. These days we have spread-spectrum modulation, and if our only goal is to transmit a timestamp, you can spread pretty wide and far and need very little power to produce a receiveable signal at long distances. The QRSS hams are playing around with numbers like 17,840,000 miles per watt, and all it takes to turn that into a time/frequency services is a spreading function with a really good autocorrelation. Obviously, you will not get second by second measurements, but the measurements you do get, say once per hour, will have much higher precision because of the averaging that goes into them. And equally obvious: propagation effects will take their toll, but still... Somebody with a license should try that on 137kHz... Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
A great thread by everyone. Oh to make the loran receivers work. But that is indeed the past. Can not hear Europe on east coast. But the question really is, what do you want to accomplish? I don't think its a time stamp. Its just to easy to get it from GPS or the network. But that could be a secondary use. I believe the primary goal would be frequency distribution with perhaps a tick. If this is the goal then I am 100% in agreement that there are far more efficient modulation and recovery methods today. The trick is you need something that does not effect the accuracy of the timing and may improve the various transmission issues at these frequencies. By the way this list has a heck of a brain trust so its very very possible. Someone mentioned spread spectrum. Thats very interesting as it is what GPS uses and could work at these lower frequencies. Like the Hey this is just telemetry comment. You know the FCC does indeed give temp authorization for quite long periods of time. Years in fact. So I would be in the keep it simple mode. Great a single carrier with a id every 10 min. Maybe that could be waved to 1 per hour or 24 hours. Unfortunately then we have nothing better then wwvb. The modulation method may be key and then what freq we would use. BPSK at higher frequencies is also impressive. My first contact was in the indian ocean on 5 whats from boston. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi If you were starting from scratch there are a lot of things you could do. If the intent is to put out something a Loran receiver will recognize ... not so much. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 6:44 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message b69fdcaf-2b39-4575-b5cd-66a87fa1b...@rtty.us, Bob Camp writes: Even though it's pule, the RF power is way beyond the sub 1 W outputs currently contemplated on those bands. Signal to noise *does* matter. You know, there are other ways to skin that cat these days. Old-time signals had to be grossly inefficient because the receivers were inefficient, in particular the ear-wristwatch kind of time receivers. These days we have spread-spectrum modulation, and if our only goal is to transmit a timestamp, you can spread pretty wide and far and need very little power to produce a receiveable signal at long distances. The QRSS hams are playing around with numbers like 17,840,000 miles per watt, and all it takes to turn that into a time/frequency services is a spreading function with a really good autocorrelation. Obviously, you will not get second by second measurements, but the measurements you do get, say once per hour, will have much higher precision because of the averaging that goes into them. And equally obvious: propagation effects will take their toll, but still... Somebody with a license should try that on 137kHz... Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
One other comment Would be great to be on 100KC But I might guess some one in gov will wake up to suggest that it could interfere with europe and not allow it. Or the treaties exist to forbid reuse. On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 8:57 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: A great thread by everyone. Oh to make the loran receivers work. But that is indeed the past. Can not hear Europe on east coast. But the question really is, what do you want to accomplish? I don't think its a time stamp. Its just to easy to get it from GPS or the network. But that could be a secondary use. I believe the primary goal would be frequency distribution with perhaps a tick. If this is the goal then I am 100% in agreement that there are far more efficient modulation and recovery methods today. The trick is you need something that does not effect the accuracy of the timing and may improve the various transmission issues at these frequencies. By the way this list has a heck of a brain trust so its very very possible. Someone mentioned spread spectrum. Thats very interesting as it is what GPS uses and could work at these lower frequencies. Like the Hey this is just telemetry comment. You know the FCC does indeed give temp authorization for quite long periods of time. Years in fact. So I would be in the keep it simple mode. Great a single carrier with a id every 10 min. Maybe that could be waved to 1 per hour or 24 hours. Unfortunately then we have nothing better then wwvb. The modulation method may be key and then what freq we would use. BPSK at higher frequencies is also impressive. My first contact was in the indian ocean on 5 whats from boston. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi If you were starting from scratch there are a lot of things you could do. If the intent is to put out something a Loran receiver will recognize ... not so much. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 6:44 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message b69fdcaf-2b39-4575-b5cd-66a87fa1b...@rtty.us, Bob Camp writes: Even though it's pule, the RF power is way beyond the sub 1 W outputs currently contemplated on those bands. Signal to noise *does* matter. You know, there are other ways to skin that cat these days. Old-time signals had to be grossly inefficient because the receivers were inefficient, in particular the ear-wristwatch kind of time receivers. These days we have spread-spectrum modulation, and if our only goal is to transmit a timestamp, you can spread pretty wide and far and need very little power to produce a receiveable signal at long distances. The QRSS hams are playing around with numbers like 17,840,000 miles per watt, and all it takes to turn that into a time/frequency services is a spreading function with a really good autocorrelation. Obviously, you will not get second by second measurements, but the measurements you do get, say once per hour, will have much higher precision because of the averaging that goes into them. And equally obvious: propagation effects will take their toll, but still... Somebody with a license should try that on 137kHz... Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Were it me, I would change the model from a few high power transmitters netted together to a ton of WiFi routers running special software and netted together. -Chuck Harris paul swed wrote: A great thread by everyone. Oh to make the loran receivers work. But that is indeed the past. Can not hear Europe on east coast. But the question really is, what do you want to accomplish? I don't think its a time stamp. Its just to easy to get it from GPS or the network. But that could be a secondary use. I believe the primary goal would be frequency distribution with perhaps a tick. If this is the goal then I am 100% in agreement that there are far more efficient modulation and recovery methods today. The trick is you need something that does not effect the accuracy of the timing and may improve the various transmission issues at these frequencies. By the way this list has a heck of a brain trust so its very very possible. Someone mentioned spread spectrum. Thats very interesting as it is what GPS uses and could work at these lower frequencies. Like the Hey this is just telemetry comment. You know the FCC does indeed give temp authorization for quite long periods of time. Years in fact. So I would be in the keep it simple mode. Great a single carrier with a id every 10 min. Maybe that could be waved to 1 per hour or 24 hours. Unfortunately then we have nothing better then wwvb. The modulation method may be key and then what freq we would use. BPSK at higher frequencies is also impressive. My first contact was in the indian ocean on 5 whats from boston. Regards Paul ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Hi The bandwidth of anything close to a Loran signal is a *lot* wider than any of the ham bands contemplated below 1 MHz. There's the minor issue of getting the power company to put in a cable to the house for your 1 Mw (capital M not lower case M) transmitter. I was not contemplating a global navigation system. Just enough to get a LORAN type timing, not navigation, lock over a few hundred mile radius. -John = Even though it's pule, the RF power is way beyond the sub 1 W outputs currently contemplated on those bands. Signal to noise *does* matter. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Millisecond pulsars have been proposed as being suitable as comparable to atomic clocks. I don't know how much power they put out, but there are stories about people with backyard size dishes receiving pulsars. Not sure if they're the right kind of pulsar, though. But hey, when fabricating your own Cs fountain or H maser seems boring. On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:20 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: Pulsars take a big dish and they aren't all that good as a standard. A friend of mine proved that at Aricebo years and years ago. While I fully sympathize with the stand alone approach (that's one of the appeals of HF comms in general.. you aren't depending on anyone else's infrastructure), I don't know that setting up a time standards station fits in with that.. I've vaguely heard that there are some new ham allocations in the works below 500 KHz. How about setting up a beacon network that works like LORAN, but at a different frequency. A simple downconverter could then feed the signal into a LORAN receiver? FWIW, -John == ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Paul, I'd bet there are 50+ LORAN timing receivers in the Boston area that could receive and lock to an erzatz 5W signal from a simulator and small amp. -John = A great thread by everyone. Oh to make the loran receivers work. But that is indeed the past. Can not hear Europe on east coast. But the question really is, what do you want to accomplish? I don't think its a time stamp. Its just to easy to get it from GPS or the network. But that could be a secondary use. I believe the primary goal would be frequency distribution with perhaps a tick. If this is the goal then I am 100% in agreement that there are far more efficient modulation and recovery methods today. The trick is you need something that does not effect the accuracy of the timing and may improve the various transmission issues at these frequencies. By the way this list has a heck of a brain trust so its very very possible. Someone mentioned spread spectrum. Thats very interesting as it is what GPS uses and could work at these lower frequencies. Like the Hey this is just telemetry comment. You know the FCC does indeed give temp authorization for quite long periods of time. Years in fact. So I would be in the keep it simple mode. Great a single carrier with a id every 10 min. Maybe that could be waved to 1 per hour or 24 hours. Unfortunately then we have nothing better then wwvb. The modulation method may be key and then what freq we would use. BPSK at higher frequencies is also impressive. My first contact was in the indian ocean on 5 whats from boston. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi If you were starting from scratch there are a lot of things you could do. If the intent is to put out something a Loran receiver will recognize ... not so much. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 6:44 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message b69fdcaf-2b39-4575-b5cd-66a87fa1b...@rtty.us, Bob Camp writes: Even though it's pule, the RF power is way beyond the sub 1 W outputs currently contemplated on those bands. Signal to noise *does* matter. You know, there are other ways to skin that cat these days. Old-time signals had to be grossly inefficient because the receivers were inefficient, in particular the ear-wristwatch kind of time receivers. These days we have spread-spectrum modulation, and if our only goal is to transmit a timestamp, you can spread pretty wide and far and need very little power to produce a receiveable signal at long distances. The QRSS hams are playing around with numbers like 17,840,000 miles per watt, and all it takes to turn that into a time/frequency services is a spreading function with a really good autocorrelation. Obviously, you will not get second by second measurements, but the measurements you do get, say once per hour, will have much higher precision because of the averaging that goes into them. And equally obvious: propagation effects will take their toll, but still... Somebody with a license should try that on 137kHz... Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:43 PM, Heathkid heath...@heathkid.com wrote: Wow you really missed my point and by having someone listening/monitoring it is not broadcasting. Especially if it is in reality for the most part... telemetry. The FCC is kind of down on transmissions not intended for a specific recipient. There are some exceptions, and informal agreements (e.g. Aprs isnt to a specific recipient, but is intended for one of a group) Not a big deal though, you can get an. Experimental license, though... Maybe I wasn't clear or maybe my message could have been misunderstood. For that, I am truly sorry. I was thinking along the lines of what John stated, a beacon network that works like LORAN You could do an experiment like that with a group, but I don't think it's viable as a continuing operation. And besides, I don't know that it really fills a need... HF isn't great for time distribution, and there aren't suitable bands for hams down low. * I'll shut up now and go back to just reading the posts for another month or so... Naah All ideas are interesting, and just because *I* don't think it's great doesn't mean that someone else might not think it's the bees knees 73 Brice KA8MAV - Original Message - From: jimlux jim...@earthlink.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 11:39 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Heathkid wrote: Doesn't someone on here with a Ham license have a Cs standard and could put up a 1pps signal? Simply transmit your callsign within the 1pps (there has to be a way) and we have a non-Govt. time standard if needed. A simple 1pps PSK-31 (or other digital mode) signal would probably work and be completely legal. Let's do this on our own and not rely on Govt. or GPS... Several throughout the world acting together (I'm not a programmer so someone could step up and figure out the logistics for a receiver) and we would have an alternative to GPS (IF/when it stops working). a) broadcasts aren't legal for US hams b) ionospheric uncertainty in the skywave path makes this no better than WWV c) Whats wrong with GPS and/or WWV and/or CHU or whatever? d) A cheap Rb would give you a local reference that is much better than what you could do with receiving something via skywave. If you want something that isn't run by governments,and is a technical challenge, how about pulsars? I'd guess (not having looked into it at all) that is would be cheaper to set up a station to receive pulsars than to run a Cs standard. While I fully sympathize with the stand alone approach (that's one of the appeals of HF comms in general.. you aren't depending on anyone else's infrastructure), I don't know that setting up a time standards station fits in with that.. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
In message aanlkti=-rejgqkaobgshqz=jfhcb5bd6zezy596ua...@mail.gmail.com, paul swed writes: Great a single carrier with a id every 10 min. Maybe that could be waved to 1 per hour or 24 hours. There is no reason the ID could not be worked into your spreading function so the time to send it would not be lost. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
In message aanlktinnoch7bsqsovhpn3qdohapg2pi2w5ynryjf...@mail.gmail.com, paul swed writes: One other comment Would be great to be on 100KC But I might guess some one in gov will wake up to suggest that it could interfere with europe and not allow it. Or the treaties exist to forbid reuse. Here in Denmark 100KHz is dual-licensed and open for low power unlicensed use, because nobody in their right mind would expect a few watts to ever be able to drown out Loran-C... Poul-Henning Exact text from Danish frequencyplan, will not attempt translation to avoid corrupting meaning: Mobile tjenester er begrænset til laveffekts radioanlæg. Laveffekts radioanlæg: Radiogrænseflade nr. 00 008 for laveffekts radioanlæg med spoleformede antenner. Radiogrænseflade nr. 00 023 for aktive medicinske implantater med ultra lav sendeeffekt. Anvendelse af radiofrekvenser i radioanlæg som nævnt i radiogrænseflade nr. 00 008 og nr. 00 023 må ske uden individuel tilladelse til frekvensanvendelse, jf. bekendtgørelse nr. 1119 af 27. november 2009 om anvendelse af radiofrekvenser uden tilladelse samt om amatørradioprøver og kaldesignaler m.v. 100 kHz: ATC. Militær anvendelse. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
On Oct 4, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Heathkid heath...@heathkid.com wrote: One more note before I just read the posts for a while... a) broadcasts aren't legal for US hams Do some reading on telemetry and when broadcasts ARE allowed. I've been a Ham for more than 30+ years. Telemetry is allowed only in the sense that it is to a specific recipient(s). That's sort of different from a beacon on hf... I don't know how the ncdxf beacons are licensed.. They may have a STA But legality is the least of the issues.. If you set it up and you're not annoying anyone, I doubt you'll get hassled much.. b) ionospheric uncertainty in the skywave path makes this no better than WWV No kidding... but without GPS (and assuming no Internet as well) how do we sync our clocks besides RF? The way it's been done for centuries... Astronomical or traveling clocks or wireline. How close do you want to sync.. HF paths are probably only good to milliseconds. c) Whats wrong with GPS and/or WWV and/or CHU or whatever? Nothing as long as they are TRANSMITTING. Sure.. As an academic exercise I can see wanting to figure it out, and even doing it as an experiment for the thrill. But If wwv isn't on the air, I don't see hams stepping in to fill the need. And if it's self reliance,then a local atomic reference seems a better approach. d) A cheap Rb would give you a local reference that is much better than what you could do with receiving something via skywave. I have three Rb standards to go along with my two Thunderbolts. So you want to be able to sync your local ref to some other standard? That is more of an ad hoc thing than setting up a beacon, etc. If you want something that isn't run by governments,and is a technical challenge, how about pulsars? I'd guess (not having looked into it at all) that is would be cheaper to set up a station to receive pulsars than to run a Cs standard. Are you serious? Cheaper? Really? I'll trade you a Thunderbolt... complete kit! for a full Pulsar time/frequency reference receiving station that is reliable (and the real-estate plus equipment for a dish large enough for it!). ;) Were not comparing to Tbolts here.. You suggested that someone connect a Cs to some stable transmitter, etc. I think an amateur pulsar receiving system is comparable to the Cs setup. Now, if it's that you want someone else to put up the station, so you don't have to spend the time and moneygrin, You've got some selling to do... What time is it? *that wasn't my point* it's relative and I'm not going to go further with this discussion. I just thought a time-nuts based time system was an interesting prospect. It is interesting.. And figuring out how to do precision time/frequency in an infrastructure-lite environment is challenging, Especially if you want to do it in an adhoc way fairly quickly. It might be cloudy/smoky. Gps and wwv might be unavailable because of interference, locally. So there is value in thinking about it. What I don't think there is value in is someone trying to set up a wwv light using psk31 on a continuing basis. And that's just my opinion. There are lots of things other hams do that I think aren't particularly useful or valuable, just as there are things that I do ham-wise that others think are wastes of time. Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
c) Whats wrong with GPS and/or WWV and/or CHU or whatever? Nothing as long as they are TRANSMITTING. Have you ever tried to adjust a local standard to better than 1 in 10E7 using WWV or CHU? I have three Rb standards to go along with my two Thunderbolts. And which one do you believe? If any? -John == ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Speaking of LORAN receivers, I have two Stanford Research Systems FS700 receivers here at work (in central VA) that I have been asked to dispose of. They both have ovenized oscillators, and I have one original manual. The antenna is on the roof, but I think it'll stay there ;-). Any offers for one or both? 73, geo - n4ua On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 8:57 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: A great thread by everyone. Oh to make the loran receivers work. But that is indeed the past. Can not hear Europe on east coast. But the question really is, what do you want to accomplish? I don't think its a time stamp. Its just to easy to get it from GPS or the network. But that could be a secondary use. I believe the primary goal would be frequency distribution with perhaps a tick. If this is the goal then I am 100% in agreement that there are far more efficient modulation and recovery methods today. The trick is you need something that does not effect the accuracy of the timing and may improve the various transmission issues at these frequencies. By the way this list has a heck of a brain trust so its very very possible. Someone mentioned spread spectrum. Thats very interesting as it is what GPS uses and could work at these lower frequencies. Like the Hey this is just telemetry comment. You know the FCC does indeed give temp authorization for quite long periods of time. Years in fact. So I would be in the keep it simple mode. Great a single carrier with a id every 10 min. Maybe that could be waved to 1 per hour or 24 hours. Unfortunately then we have nothing better then wwvb. The modulation method may be key and then what freq we would use. BPSK at higher frequencies is also impressive. My first contact was in the indian ocean on 5 whats from boston. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi If you were starting from scratch there are a lot of things you could do. If the intent is to put out something a Loran receiver will recognize ... not so much. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 6:44 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message b69fdcaf-2b39-4575-b5cd-66a87fa1b...@rtty.us, Bob Camp writes: Even though it's pule, the RF power is way beyond the sub 1 W outputs currently contemplated on those bands. Signal to noise *does* matter. You know, there are other ways to skin that cat these days. Old-time signals had to be grossly inefficient because the receivers were inefficient, in particular the ear-wristwatch kind of time receivers. These days we have spread-spectrum modulation, and if our only goal is to transmit a timestamp, you can spread pretty wide and far and need very little power to produce a receiveable signal at long distances. The QRSS hams are playing around with numbers like 17,840,000 miles per watt, and all it takes to turn that into a time/frequency services is a spreading function with a really good autocorrelation. Obviously, you will not get second by second measurements, but the measurements you do get, say once per hour, will have much higher precision because of the averaging that goes into them. And equally obvious: propagation effects will take their toll, but still... Somebody with a license should try that on 137kHz... Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
In message aanlktikt7xxjganyxgada1kqn4mkmq0xcw=b_2vln...@mail.gmail.com, Geor ge Dubovsky writes: Speaking of LORAN receivers, I have two Stanford Research Systems FS700 receivers here at work (in central VA) that I have been asked to dispose of. I would love to lay my hands on one of them, so I can compare the performance to my home-built stuff. I'm willing to pay for the shipping across the pond. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
John I would be interested but with loran down fo ever. Inexpensive. On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 1:24 PM, George Dubovsky n4ua...@gmail.com wrote: Speaking of LORAN receivers, I have two Stanford Research Systems FS700 receivers here at work (in central VA) that I have been asked to dispose of. They both have ovenized oscillators, and I have one original manual. The antenna is on the roof, but I think it'll stay there ;-). Any offers for one or both? 73, geo - n4ua On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 8:57 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: A great thread by everyone. Oh to make the loran receivers work. But that is indeed the past. Can not hear Europe on east coast. But the question really is, what do you want to accomplish? I don't think its a time stamp. Its just to easy to get it from GPS or the network. But that could be a secondary use. I believe the primary goal would be frequency distribution with perhaps a tick. If this is the goal then I am 100% in agreement that there are far more efficient modulation and recovery methods today. The trick is you need something that does not effect the accuracy of the timing and may improve the various transmission issues at these frequencies. By the way this list has a heck of a brain trust so its very very possible. Someone mentioned spread spectrum. Thats very interesting as it is what GPS uses and could work at these lower frequencies. Like the Hey this is just telemetry comment. You know the FCC does indeed give temp authorization for quite long periods of time. Years in fact. So I would be in the keep it simple mode. Great a single carrier with a id every 10 min. Maybe that could be waved to 1 per hour or 24 hours. Unfortunately then we have nothing better then wwvb. The modulation method may be key and then what freq we would use. BPSK at higher frequencies is also impressive. My first contact was in the indian ocean on 5 whats from boston. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi If you were starting from scratch there are a lot of things you could do. If the intent is to put out something a Loran receiver will recognize ... not so much. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 6:44 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message b69fdcaf-2b39-4575-b5cd-66a87fa1b...@rtty.us, Bob Camp writes: Even though it's pule, the RF power is way beyond the sub 1 W outputs currently contemplated on those bands. Signal to noise *does* matter. You know, there are other ways to skin that cat these days. Old-time signals had to be grossly inefficient because the receivers were inefficient, in particular the ear-wristwatch kind of time receivers. These days we have spread-spectrum modulation, and if our only goal is to transmit a timestamp, you can spread pretty wide and far and need very little power to produce a receiveable signal at long distances. The QRSS hams are playing around with numbers like 17,840,000 miles per watt, and all it takes to turn that into a time/frequency services is a spreading function with a really good autocorrelation. Obviously, you will not get second by second measurements, but the measurements you do get, say once per hour, will have much higher precision because of the averaging that goes into them. And equally obvious: propagation effects will take their toll, but still... Somebody with a license should try that on 137kHz... Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
There's the minor issue of getting the power company to put in a cable to the house for your 1 Mw (capital M not lower case M) transmitter. I can't resist citing a personal anecdote regarding power distribution. A few years back, I was working on a proposal for a high power (1MW) power supply system. Our building currently has about 750kW service, so I asked the facility engineer to call the power company to find out how much it would cost and how long it would take to get another MW in our building. He called me back quickly. He was told that because he called after 2PM, they could not do it that day and the soonest we could have it would be the next day. He was laughing so much, he never got to ask how much it would cost... Didier Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 06:34:29 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Hi The bandwidth of anything close to a Loran signal is a *lot* wider than any of the ham bands contemplated below 1 MHz. There's the minor issue of getting the power company to put in a cable to the house for your 1 Mw (capital M not lower case M) transmitter. Even though it's pule, the RF power is way beyond the sub 1 W outputs currently contemplated on those bands. Signal to noise *does* matter. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 12:20 AM, J. Forster wrote: a) broadcasts aren't legal for US hams b) ionospheric uncertainty in the skywave path makes this no better than WWV c) Whats wrong with GPS and/or WWV and/or CHU or whatever? d) A cheap Rb would give you a local reference that is much better than what you could do with receiving something via skywave. If you want something that isn't run by governments,and is a technical challenge, how about pulsars? I'd guess (not having looked into it at all) that is would be cheaper to set up a station to receive pulsars than to run a Cs standard. Pulsars take a big dish and they aren't all that good as a standard. A friend of mine proved that at Aricebo years and years ago. While I fully sympathize with the stand alone approach (that's one of the appeals of HF comms in general.. you aren't depending on anyone else's infrastructure), I don't know that setting up a time standards station fits in with that.. I've vaguely heard that there are some new ham allocations in the works below 500 KHz. How about setting up a beacon network that works like LORAN, but at a different frequency. A simple downconverter could then feed the signal into a LORAN receiver? FWIW, -John == ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
That is basically the sauce behind GPS. What is the power of the transmitters on the satellites? It can't be much, and the signal on the ground is quite a bit below the noise floor before correlation. Didier Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 10:44:39 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver In message b69fdcaf-2b39-4575-b5cd-66a87fa1b...@rtty.us, Bob Camp writes: Even though it's pule, the RF power is way beyond the sub 1 W outputs currently contemplated on those bands. Signal to noise *does* matter. You know, there are other ways to skin that cat these days. Old-time signals had to be grossly inefficient because the receivers were inefficient, in particular the ear-wristwatch kind of time receivers. These days we have spread-spectrum modulation, and if our only goal is to transmit a timestamp, you can spread pretty wide and far and need very little power to produce a receiveable signal at long distances. The QRSS hams are playing around with numbers like 17,840,000 miles per watt, and all it takes to turn that into a time/frequency services is a spreading function with a really good autocorrelation. Obviously, you will not get second by second measurements, but the measurements you do get, say once per hour, will have much higher precision because of the averaging that goes into them. And equally obvious: propagation effects will take their toll, but still... Somebody with a license should try that on 137kHz... Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
On Oct 5, 2010, at 1:15 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: That is basically the sauce behind GPS. What is the power of the transmitters on the satellites? It can't be much, and the signal on the ground is quite a bit below the noise floor before correlation. If I recall correctly, the transmit power is around 15W. A received signal of -130dbm is considered strong, and tracking (but not acquisition or data decoding) can still be done at signals approaching -160dbm. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X n...@nf6x.net Web page: http://www.nf6x.net/ GnuPG public key available from my web page. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
It is a pulse transmitter. It makes short bursts of 10 or 12 pulses, and then waits one GRI, and then does it again. I would think the actual continuous power draw is around 10Kw. The floor is open to anyone that wants to make the calculation. -Chuck Harris shali...@gmail.com wrote: There's the minor issue of getting the power company to put in a cable to the house for your 1 Mw (capital M not lower case M) transmitter. I can't resist citing a personal anecdote regarding power distribution. A few years back, I was working on a proposal for a high power (1MW) power supply system. Our building currently has about 750kW service, so I asked the facility engineer to call the power company to find out how much it would cost and how long it would take to get another MW in our building. He called me back quickly. He was told that because he called after 2PM, they could not do it that day and the soonest we could have it would be the next day. He was laughing so much, he never got to ask how much it would cost... Didier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
In message 4cab888b.4040...@erols.com, Chuck Harris writes: It is a pulse transmitter. It makes short bursts of 10 or 12 pulses, and then waits one GRI, and then does it again. I would think the actual continuous power draw is around 10Kw. http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html About 50kW for Eiði (400kW, 9007M) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Ok, but that is no megawatt! Also, most of the transmitters were doing multi duty, handling several chains simultaneously. That would up the average power proportionately. -Chuck Harris Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message4cab888b.4040...@erols.com, Chuck Harris writes: It is a pulse transmitter. It makes short bursts of 10 or 12 pulses, and then waits one GRI, and then does it again. I would think the actual continuous power draw is around 10Kw. http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html About 50kW for Ei�i (400kW, 9007M) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
That's why I think an amateur timing LORAN network might be quite feasable. Imagine a dozen 1 KW PEP A-LORAN stations with Rb and GPS scattered around the US. There is no reason why a single transmitter could not spoof a whole chain as it would not be used for navigation. FWIW, -John = It is a pulse transmitter. It makes short bursts of 10 or 12 pulses, and then waits one GRI, and then does it again. I would think the actual continuous power draw is around 10Kw. The floor is open to anyone that wants to make the calculation. -Chuck Harris shali...@gmail.com wrote: There's the minor issue of getting the power company to put in a cable to the house for your 1 Mw (capital M not lower case M) transmitter. I can't resist citing a personal anecdote regarding power distribution. A few years back, I was working on a proposal for a high power (1MW) power supply system. Our building currently has about 750kW service, so I asked the facility engineer to call the power company to find out how much it would cost and how long it would take to get another MW in our building. He called me back quickly. He was told that because he called after 2PM, they could not do it that day and the soonest we could have it would be the next day. He was laughing so much, he never got to ask how much it would cost... Didier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
And the Power Factor sucks, so there is a lot less real power being used. -John = Ok, but that is no megawatt! Also, most of the transmitters were doing multi duty, handling several chains simultaneously. That would up the average power proportionately. -Chuck Harris Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message4cab888b.4040...@erols.com, Chuck Harris writes: It is a pulse transmitter. It makes short bursts of 10 or 12 pulses, and then waits one GRI, and then does it again. I would think the actual continuous power draw is around 10Kw. http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html About 50kW for Ei�i (400kW, 9007M) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
In message 50213.12.6.201.2.1286311041.squir...@popaccts.quikus.com, J. Fors ter writes: And the Power Factor sucks, so there is a lot less real power being used. Yeah, 0.75 inductive is not exactly stellar, but it may not matter in this case, as the Faroese power-grid is pretty sparse. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Not necessarily, on 3 phase systems, you would have to be creative to get below .9 You can easily get to .95 with a simple multipulse rectification. Beyond that, other than regulatory compliance, you do not gain much efficiency. I can't imagine these systems running on anything other than 3 phase power. Didier Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:37:21 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: j...@quik.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver And the Power Factor sucks, so there is a lot less real power being used. -John = Ok, but that is no megawatt! Also, most of the transmitters were doing multi duty, handling several chains simultaneously. That would up the average power proportionately. -Chuck Harris Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message4cab888b.4040...@erols.com, Chuck Harris writes: It is a pulse transmitter. It makes short bursts of 10 or 12 pulses, and then waits one GRI, and then does it again. I would think the actual continuous power draw is around 10Kw. http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html About 50kW for Ei�i (400kW, 9007M) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Well crazy as it sounds if you are at 100 KC you might just want 1 loran tower in a chain or even fewer. You only need 1 station not 3. Timing rcvrs worked on one signal. On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 4:46 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: Not necessarily, on 3 phase systems, you would have to be creative to get below .9 You can easily get to .95 with a simple multipulse rectification. Beyond that, other than regulatory compliance, you do not gain much efficiency. I can't imagine these systems running on anything other than 3 phase power. Didier Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:37:21 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: j...@quik.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver And the Power Factor sucks, so there is a lot less real power being used. -John = Ok, but that is no megawatt! Also, most of the transmitters were doing multi duty, handling several chains simultaneously. That would up the average power proportionately. -Chuck Harris Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message4cab888b.4040...@erols.com, Chuck Harris writes: It is a pulse transmitter. It makes short bursts of 10 or 12 pulses, and then waits one GRI, and then does it again. I would think the actual continuous power draw is around 10Kw. http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html About 50kW for Ei�i (400kW, 9007M) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
In message 63077.12.6.201.2.1286310871.squir...@popaccts.quikus.com, J. Fors ter writes: That's why I think an amateur timing LORAN network might be quite feasable. Imagine a dozen 1 KW PEP A-LORAN stations with Rb and GPS scattered around the US. There is no reason why a single transmitter could not spoof a whole chain as it would not be used for navigation. Why try to emulate technology from WWII ? I would find it much more interesting to invent a good spread-spectrum modulation, and see if we could do world wide time-transmission with just a single 1W tranmistter per continent, which could be received with a simple down-converter frontend and a soundcard. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
?? Paul, I've said that at least twice. A single Tx can emulate all the Txs in a chain, since it is not used for navigation. Just emulating the Master station would be fine, but I'm not certain that all LORAN receivers would lock up, absent two or three received stations. I'd set up my time differences to put the fake position on top of the Prudential or Bunker Hill Monument or some other landmark, if I were in Boston. FWIW, -John Well crazy as it sounds if you are at 100 KC you might just want 1 loran tower in a chain or even fewer. You only need 1 station not 3. Timing rcvrs worked on one signal. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Yup running in circles. Not in favor of soundblaster. Looses accuracy Am in favor of spreadspct On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 5:06 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: ?? Paul, I've said that at least twice. A single Tx can emulate all the Txs in a chain, since it is not used for navigation. Just emulating the Master station would be fine, but I'm not certain that all LORAN receivers would lock up, absent two or three received stations. I'd set up my time differences to put the fake position on top of the Prudential or Bunker Hill Monument or some other landmark, if I were in Boston. FWIW, -John Well crazy as it sounds if you are at 100 KC you might just want 1 loran tower in a chain or even fewer. You only need 1 station not 3. Timing rcvrs worked on one signal. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Because there is a now-useless installed base of high grade LORAN receivers and comparators out there. IMO, one Tx site could make them all live again. -John === Why try to emulate technology from WWII ? I would find it much more interesting to invent a good spread-spectrum modulation, and see if we could do world wide time-transmission with just a single 1W tranmistter per continent, which could be received with a simple down-converter frontend and a soundcard. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
On 10/5/2010 3:59 PM, paul swed wrote: Well crazy as it sounds if you are at 100 KC you might just want 1 loran tower in a chain or even fewer. You only need 1 station not 3. Timing rcvrs worked on one signal. Frequency recovery works with master only, timing requires ranging data, so three stations are required to locate the receiver. -- mailto:o...@ozindfw.net Oz POB 93167 Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
A loop around the house? -John == Hi Ok, the next layer to this onion is the antenna. At 100KC your antenna is 35X smaller than it is on 80 meters foot for foot. In other words, your 100' tall vertical on 80 equates to a 3 foot tall antenna at 100 KC. QRP on 80 with a 3' transmit antenna anybody? Been there done that, not much range at all. At VLF forget about transmitting with a horizontal antenna unless you are airborne. It's not just the antenna, the ground counts as well. If you are by the seashore that may not be a big deal. If you are inland, prepare to lay many very long radials. -- After that you hit signal to noise. The receivers worked as well as they did because they had an enormous signal to work with. There's an amazing amount of crud running around down below 200 KHz these days. Even for timing you need a lot of signal to get good results. Bob KB8TQ Ham for way more than 30 years On Oct 5, 2010, at 4:59 PM, paul swed wrote: Well crazy as it sounds if you are at 100 KC you might just want 1 loran tower in a chain or even fewer. You only need 1 station not 3. Timing rcvrs worked on one signal. On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 4:46 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: Not necessarily, on 3 phase systems, you would have to be creative to get below .9 You can easily get to .95 with a simple multipulse rectification. Beyond that, other than regulatory compliance, you do not gain much efficiency. I can't imagine these systems running on anything other than 3 phase power. Didier Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:37:21 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: j...@quik.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver And the Power Factor sucks, so there is a lot less real power being used. -John = Ok, but that is no megawatt! Also, most of the transmitters were doing multi duty, handling several chains simultaneously. That would up the average power proportionately. -Chuck Harris Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message4cab888b.4040...@erols.com, Chuck Harris writes: It is a pulse transmitter. It makes short bursts of 10 or 12 pulses, and then waits one GRI, and then does it again. I would think the actual continuous power draw is around 10Kw. http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html About 50kW for Ei�i (400kW, 9007M) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Hi I've had similar experiences with commercial power (we can't get the new transformers up on the pole this evening, but we can have it done by noon tomorrow...). The same call on a residential circuit gets you endless grief about tariffs and their poor aching back. Lucky if you can even double the circuit in under a couple months. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 4:13 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: There's the minor issue of getting the power company to put in a cable to the house for your 1 Mw (capital M not lower case M) transmitter. I can't resist citing a personal anecdote regarding power distribution. A few years back, I was working on a proposal for a high power (1MW) power supply system. Our building currently has about 750kW service, so I asked the facility engineer to call the power company to find out how much it would cost and how long it would take to get another MW in our building. He called me back quickly. He was told that because he called after 2PM, they could not do it that day and the soonest we could have it would be the next day. He was laughing so much, he never got to ask how much it would cost... Didier Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 06:34:29 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Hi The bandwidth of anything close to a Loran signal is a *lot* wider than any of the ham bands contemplated below 1 MHz. There's the minor issue of getting the power company to put in a cable to the house for your 1 Mw (capital M not lower case M) transmitter. Even though it's pule, the RF power is way beyond the sub 1 W outputs currently contemplated on those bands. Signal to noise *does* matter. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 12:20 AM, J. Forster wrote: a) broadcasts aren't legal for US hams b) ionospheric uncertainty in the skywave path makes this no better than WWV c) Whats wrong with GPS and/or WWV and/or CHU or whatever? d) A cheap Rb would give you a local reference that is much better than what you could do with receiving something via skywave. If you want something that isn't run by governments,and is a technical challenge, how about pulsars? I'd guess (not having looked into it at all) that is would be cheaper to set up a station to receive pulsars than to run a Cs standard. Pulsars take a big dish and they aren't all that good as a standard. A friend of mine proved that at Aricebo years and years ago. While I fully sympathize with the stand alone approach (that's one of the appeals of HF comms in general.. you aren't depending on anyone else's infrastructure), I don't know that setting up a time standards station fits in with that.. I've vaguely heard that there are some new ham allocations in the works below 500 KHz. How about setting up a beacon network that works like LORAN, but at a different frequency. A simple downconverter could then feed the signal into a LORAN receiver? FWIW, -John == ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Hi Same gotcha as the horizontal dipole - most of the energy is shorted out by the ground. Think of a transformer with a shorted turn. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 5:58 PM, J. Forster wrote: A loop around the house? -John == Hi Ok, the next layer to this onion is the antenna. At 100KC your antenna is 35X smaller than it is on 80 meters foot for foot. In other words, your 100' tall vertical on 80 equates to a 3 foot tall antenna at 100 KC. QRP on 80 with a 3' transmit antenna anybody? Been there done that, not much range at all. At VLF forget about transmitting with a horizontal antenna unless you are airborne. It's not just the antenna, the ground counts as well. If you are by the seashore that may not be a big deal. If you are inland, prepare to lay many very long radials. -- After that you hit signal to noise. The receivers worked as well as they did because they had an enormous signal to work with. There's an amazing amount of crud running around down below 200 KHz these days. Even for timing you need a lot of signal to get good results. Bob KB8TQ Ham for way more than 30 years On Oct 5, 2010, at 4:59 PM, paul swed wrote: Well crazy as it sounds if you are at 100 KC you might just want 1 loran tower in a chain or even fewer. You only need 1 station not 3. Timing rcvrs worked on one signal. On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 4:46 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: Not necessarily, on 3 phase systems, you would have to be creative to get below .9 You can easily get to .95 with a simple multipulse rectification. Beyond that, other than regulatory compliance, you do not gain much efficiency. I can't imagine these systems running on anything other than 3 phase power. Didier Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:37:21 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: j...@quik.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver And the Power Factor sucks, so there is a lot less real power being used. -John = Ok, but that is no megawatt! Also, most of the transmitters were doing multi duty, handling several chains simultaneously. That would up the average power proportionately. -Chuck Harris Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message4cab888b.4040...@erols.com, Chuck Harris writes: It is a pulse transmitter. It makes short bursts of 10 or 12 pulses, and then waits one GRI, and then does it again. I would think the actual continuous power draw is around 10Kw. http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html About 50kW for Ei�i (400kW, 9007M) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Poul, Please explain to me how spread spectrum would enhance any process of frequency or time recovery ? I just do not see it. The reason for the spread spectrum used with the GPS is because all of the Birds are in the same base frequency. Thus the spreading codes allow for distinction between the different signals. At 100 kHz the system bandwidth is very, very limited compared to the very wide spectrum of the GPS. Stepping up into the HF area brings in the sky wave propagation issues. The whole purpose of suggesting an amateur approach is to utilize the large base of existing LORAN receivers as someone pointed out. However, as the number of people needing such a service is quite small it does not make economical sense, as the cost would certainly be prohibitive. The only feasible way would be to have many lower power 100 kHz transmitters and there are just not enough people around to construct, install and maintain such an operation; not to mention the licensing issues. Besides, you would achieve nothing above what is already provided by operations such as the 60 kHz WWVB and similar in other countries. So I see it as a pie in the sky nice idea but no cigar. BillWB6BNQ Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 63077.12.6.201.2.1286310871.squir...@popaccts.quikus.com, J. Fors ter writes: That's why I think an amateur timing LORAN network might be quite feasable. Imagine a dozen 1 KW PEP A-LORAN stations with Rb and GPS scattered around the US. There is no reason why a single transmitter could not spoof a whole chain as it would not be used for navigation. Why try to emulate technology from WWII ? I would find it much more interesting to invent a good spread-spectrum modulation, and see if we could do world wide time-transmission with just a single 1W tranmistter per continent, which could be received with a simple down-converter frontend and a soundcard. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Depends on your soil. New England is mainly rock with very poor conductivity. -John == Hi Same gotcha as the horizontal dipole - most of the energy is shorted out by the ground. Think of a transformer with a shorted turn. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 5:58 PM, J. Forster wrote: A loop around the house? -John == Hi Ok, the next layer to this onion is the antenna. At 100KC your antenna is 35X smaller than it is on 80 meters foot for foot. In other words, your 100' tall vertical on 80 equates to a 3 foot tall antenna at 100 KC. QRP on 80 with a 3' transmit antenna anybody? Been there done that, not much range at all. At VLF forget about transmitting with a horizontal antenna unless you are airborne. It's not just the antenna, the ground counts as well. If you are by the seashore that may not be a big deal. If you are inland, prepare to lay many very long radials. -- After that you hit signal to noise. The receivers worked as well as they did because they had an enormous signal to work with. There's an amazing amount of crud running around down below 200 KHz these days. Even for timing you need a lot of signal to get good results. Bob KB8TQ Ham for way more than 30 years On Oct 5, 2010, at 4:59 PM, paul swed wrote: Well crazy as it sounds if you are at 100 KC you might just want 1 loran tower in a chain or even fewer. You only need 1 station not 3. Timing rcvrs worked on one signal. On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 4:46 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: Not necessarily, on 3 phase systems, you would have to be creative to get below .9 You can easily get to .95 with a simple multipulse rectification. Beyond that, other than regulatory compliance, you do not gain much efficiency. I can't imagine these systems running on anything other than 3 phase power. Didier Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:37:21 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: j...@quik.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver And the Power Factor sucks, so there is a lot less real power being used. -John = Ok, but that is no megawatt! Also, most of the transmitters were doing multi duty, handling several chains simultaneously. That would up the average power proportionately. -Chuck Harris Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message4cab888b.4040...@erols.com, Chuck Harris writes: It is a pulse transmitter. It makes short bursts of 10 or 12 pulses, and then waits one GRI, and then does it again. I would think the actual continuous power draw is around 10Kw. http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html About 50kW for Ei�i (400kW, 9007M) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
The localized LORAN is not that hard, IMO: Many TNs have GPS Rbs. At least one simulator has been built. RF amps are easily available (ENI) for 100W pulse at 100 KHz. Home Depot has 250' rolls of #14 THHN. FWIW, -John Poul, Please explain to me how spread spectrum would enhance any process of frequency or time recovery ? I just do not see it. The reason for the spread spectrum used with the GPS is because all of the Birds are in the same base frequency. Thus the spreading codes allow for distinction between the different signals. At 100 kHz the system bandwidth is very, very limited compared to the very wide spectrum of the GPS. Stepping up into the HF area brings in the sky wave propagation issues. The whole purpose of suggesting an amateur approach is to utilize the large base of existing LORAN receivers as someone pointed out. However, as the number of people needing such a service is quite small it does not make economical sense, as the cost would certainly be prohibitive. The only feasible way would be to have many lower power 100 kHz transmitters and there are just not enough people around to construct, install and maintain such an operation; not to mention the licensing issues. Besides, you would achieve nothing above what is already provided by operations such as the 60 kHz WWVB and similar in other countries. So I see it as a pie in the sky nice idea but no cigar. BillWB6BNQ Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 63077.12.6.201.2.1286310871.squir...@popaccts.quikus.com, J. Fors ter writes: That's why I think an amateur timing LORAN network might be quite feasable. Imagine a dozen 1 KW PEP A-LORAN stations with Rb and GPS scattered around the US. There is no reason why a single transmitter could not spoof a whole chain as it would not be used for navigation. Why try to emulate technology from WWII ? I would find it much more interesting to invent a good spread-spectrum modulation, and see if we could do world wide time-transmission with just a single 1W tranmistter per continent, which could be received with a simple down-converter frontend and a soundcard. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
On 10/05/2010 03:17 PM, J. Forster wrote: Hi The bandwidth of anything close to a Loran signal is a *lot* wider than any of the ham bands contemplated below 1 MHz. There's the minor issue of getting the power company to put in a cable to the house for your 1 Mw (capital M not lower case M) transmitter. I was not contemplating a global navigation system. Just enough to get a LORAN type timing, not navigation, lock over a few hundred mile radius. However, consider that a few of these transmitters if wisely used could be kept running by guys like us on electricity bills we could handle and provide a grid network. This way the navigation aspect could be embedded into the system and propagation delay be cancelled. Fixed location could then be used to provide multiple observations of time-indication. A particular aspect of spread spectrum is that we could have several transmitters on the same center frequency which has the benefit that equipment delays become common mode to a first degree. This is a benefit of GPS over GLONASS. Multiple carrier systems provide means for frequency diversity as well as dispersion observations. There is many options to consider for such a system. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
In message 4caba343.8c581...@cox.net, WB6BNQ writes: Please explain to me how spread spectrum would enhance any process of frequency or time recovery ? Ok, it is late and I'm probably going to botch this, but I'll try: The really short explanation is that your carrier transitions have random-ish looking signs, which, if properly designed, allows you to balance out pretty much any kind of CW or random noise. This is, in essence, why you can separate the different GPS sattelites, even though they all send on the same frequency. Technically speaking, Loran-C is spread spectrum, but they botched this aspect slightly, by not properly balancing the signs of (all) the codes. The Austron 2000 has a switch that allows you to disregard certain bits in the codes to balance them, this increases the imunity to CW interference. So given that you can trivially get a good OCXO today, I would design our low-power-time-transmitter to send one fix per hour. For instance 127 bits of PRNG at 28 seconds per bit with a four second gap before the next timestamp (send ID ?) On the receiver side, you know what time it is +/- one 28sec bit, so you digitize the signal and correlate the PRNG in a window around your local clock. After an hour, you pick the correlation bucket that correlated best and have an instant estimate of the difference between your local clock and the average of that hours transmissions. If xmitted as NFSK at around 100kHz and digitized at 1MSPS, you would get 1µsec resolution without resorting to interpolation. By choosing all your magic numbers to be nonprime to normal CW signals inside their respective periods, you supress those by averaging. This is why the NELS LORAN-C chains got new 4-digit GRI's: they are imune to pretty much traditional CW interference because they do not divide seconds or kHz on relevant timescales. Poul-Henning PS: DCF77 already does SS, but on a second to second basis. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
A couple of comments. If loran c, I built the simulator for the transmitter and its available at this website Index of /simloran http://n4iqt.com/simloran/ But I left out various wave shaping filters because there was no intent to xmit on the air. KISS principal after all its all of $29 maybe. But is very optimized to preserve the accuracy of the 100kc signal and I did check its behaviors with the real loran stations it matched very well. Those filters also optimize ground and skywave propagation characteristics not a problem when the feed is coax and the endpoint the receiver. Good comments on spreadspectrum. I have to roll back up to the question asked a while ago. Goals of the interest. From there what frequency might be chosen and what method of delivery. Regards On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 10/05/2010 03:17 PM, J. Forster wrote: Hi The bandwidth of anything close to a Loran signal is a *lot* wider than any of the ham bands contemplated below 1 MHz. There's the minor issue of getting the power company to put in a cable to the house for your 1 Mw (capital M not lower case M) transmitter. I was not contemplating a global navigation system. Just enough to get a LORAN type timing, not navigation, lock over a few hundred mile radius. However, consider that a few of these transmitters if wisely used could be kept running by guys like us on electricity bills we could handle and provide a grid network. This way the navigation aspect could be embedded into the system and propagation delay be cancelled. Fixed location could then be used to provide multiple observations of time-indication. A particular aspect of spread spectrum is that we could have several transmitters on the same center frequency which has the benefit that equipment delays become common mode to a first degree. This is a benefit of GPS over GLONASS. Multiple carrier systems provide means for frequency diversity as well as dispersion observations. There is many options to consider for such a system. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Hi Poor, but not poor enough in this case. A quarter wave at 100KC goes pretty deep. If you can drill a well there, you will hit the ground water with your antenna's ground side. The loss in getting there will be just as bad as anything else. Next issue would be stability over a poor ground when it rains. I suspect that they are going to pull a *lot* of copper out of the ground at some of the Loran stations. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 6:16 PM, J. Forster wrote: Depends on your soil. New England is mainly rock with very poor conductivity. -John == Hi Same gotcha as the horizontal dipole - most of the energy is shorted out by the ground. Think of a transformer with a shorted turn. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 5:58 PM, J. Forster wrote: A loop around the house? -John == Hi Ok, the next layer to this onion is the antenna. At 100KC your antenna is 35X smaller than it is on 80 meters foot for foot. In other words, your 100' tall vertical on 80 equates to a 3 foot tall antenna at 100 KC. QRP on 80 with a 3' transmit antenna anybody? Been there done that, not much range at all. At VLF forget about transmitting with a horizontal antenna unless you are airborne. It's not just the antenna, the ground counts as well. If you are by the seashore that may not be a big deal. If you are inland, prepare to lay many very long radials. -- After that you hit signal to noise. The receivers worked as well as they did because they had an enormous signal to work with. There's an amazing amount of crud running around down below 200 KHz these days. Even for timing you need a lot of signal to get good results. Bob KB8TQ Ham for way more than 30 years On Oct 5, 2010, at 4:59 PM, paul swed wrote: Well crazy as it sounds if you are at 100 KC you might just want 1 loran tower in a chain or even fewer. You only need 1 station not 3. Timing rcvrs worked on one signal. On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 4:46 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: Not necessarily, on 3 phase systems, you would have to be creative to get below .9 You can easily get to .95 with a simple multipulse rectification. Beyond that, other than regulatory compliance, you do not gain much efficiency. I can't imagine these systems running on anything other than 3 phase power. Didier Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:37:21 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: j...@quik.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver And the Power Factor sucks, so there is a lot less real power being used. -John = Ok, but that is no megawatt! Also, most of the transmitters were doing multi duty, handling several chains simultaneously. That would up the average power proportionately. -Chuck Harris Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message4cab888b.4040...@erols.com, Chuck Harris writes: It is a pulse transmitter. It makes short bursts of 10 or 12 pulses, and then waits one GRI, and then does it again. I would think the actual continuous power draw is around 10Kw. http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html About 50kW for Ei�i (400kW, 9007M) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Hi The other answer is that DSP was not really available when the original waveforms were developed. A modern system would not have a must be able to work with manual delay lines and an oscilloscope requirement on it. Bob On Oct 5, 2010, at 6:56 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 4caba343.8c581...@cox.net, WB6BNQ writes: Please explain to me how spread spectrum would enhance any process of frequency or time recovery ? Ok, it is late and I'm probably going to botch this, but I'll try: The really short explanation is that your carrier transitions have random-ish looking signs, which, if properly designed, allows you to balance out pretty much any kind of CW or random noise. This is, in essence, why you can separate the different GPS sattelites, even though they all send on the same frequency. Technically speaking, Loran-C is spread spectrum, but they botched this aspect slightly, by not properly balancing the signs of (all) the codes. The Austron 2000 has a switch that allows you to disregard certain bits in the codes to balance them, this increases the imunity to CW interference. So given that you can trivially get a good OCXO today, I would design our low-power-time-transmitter to send one fix per hour. For instance 127 bits of PRNG at 28 seconds per bit with a four second gap before the next timestamp (send ID ?) On the receiver side, you know what time it is +/- one 28sec bit, so you digitize the signal and correlate the PRNG in a window around your local clock. After an hour, you pick the correlation bucket that correlated best and have an instant estimate of the difference between your local clock and the average of that hours transmissions. If xmitted as NFSK at around 100kHz and digitized at 1MSPS, you would get 1µsec resolution without resorting to interpolation. By choosing all your magic numbers to be nonprime to normal CW signals inside their respective periods, you supress those by averaging. This is why the NELS LORAN-C chains got new 4-digit GRI's: they are imune to pretty much traditional CW interference because they do not divide seconds or kHz on relevant timescales. Poul-Henning PS: DCF77 already does SS, but on a second to second basis. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
If you want to see a R E A L L Y big vlf antenna check out thest two links. The first is about Soviet and US VLF antennas used for submarine communications during the cold war, and the second has a copule of photo's at the end of the powerpoint presentation of the installation in Cutler, Maine. http://coldwar-c4i.net/VLF/design.html www.eee.metu.edu.tr/~eekmekci/documents/vlf_antennas.ppt ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Its not just diurnal shift it plain old jumps anytime. Have been monitoring for periods from the eastcoast using both a Tracor 577 and 2 X HP vlf117 rcvrs. All kinds of stuff occur. But then the older gents know all about that reality. Some may speak up. I like you want a second source but will say I was spoiled by loran. Maybe I did not realize how much. Even though my first loran timing recvr was homebrew in about 1989 as I recall. How far are you from wwvb?? On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Perry Sandeen sandee...@yahoo.com wrote: Gents, Thanks for all the input on the HP 3586B and the Austron Loran C receiver. I’ll try to distill what’s been said. It appears that using the HP 3586B for a WWVB receiver isn’t a good idea unless I would use my HP 3336B or some other method to phase lock the BFO. Since this seems to be way out of the KISS principle, I will go to plan B. I appreciate the clever circuit to convert the Austron to a phase detector but the effort required to get just a phase detector alone isn’t cost effective for me. Opening up the Austron shows that there is a great deal of space. If the three Loran boards are gutted one of my Lucent Rubidium or Xtal standards will just fit in their place. The power supply appears to be robust for the power required. If not, there is space to add on. So to try to maximize the salvage of my purchase it looks like I should do the following. 1. Gut the Loran boards and get a Lucent unit installed and working. 2. Build a big honkin’ quality 60 KHz loop antenna. I live in the country so I can put up any size I can afford. 3. Convert the Austron RF amp boards to 60 KHz if I can get a schematic and get lucky. Does anyone have one or know where I could download it? 4. If I don’t get lucky, build a TRF receiver in place of the Austron RF boards. 60 KHz crystals are cheap from Mouser. Does anyone have experience building a ladder or similar crystal filter? 5. After I get a good working 60 KHz signal, I‘ll divide it by six and apply it to a Talbot 10 KHz phase detector. The Talbot circuit divides the 10 MHz reference oscillator to 10KHz using 74HC390 decade dividers. It then provides a correction circuit to the reference oscillator from its phase detector. Since the Talbot circuit on uses about six IC’s it will fit nicely in the rear chassis area. The goal, when completed, is to have a WWVB phase locked oscillator (yes I have to figure out what to do about diurnal shift) a reference frequency output and perhaps add a second Talbot phase detector circuit and meter for calibrating other oscillators. Yes, the GPS is more accurate more quickly but the issue is to have a second independent source for cross-checking. Though highly unlikely, GPS satellites can be shot down, disabled or turned off or have their outputs modified at any time. Comments? Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
All All of this design and mod info is wonderful and great to fill an engineering project workbook. You can spend about $500US and get a complete HP working system including GPS antenna which I have been monitiring to 10-12 for 14 mos now and it is stable Dr Joe In a message dated 10/4/2010 3:12:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sandee...@yahoo.com writes: Gents, Thanks for all the input on the HP 3586B and the Austron Loran C receiver. I’ll try to distill what’s been said. It appears that using the HP 3586B for a WWVB receiver isn’t a good idea unless I would use my HP 3336B or some other method to phase lock the BFO. Since this seems to be way out of the KISS principle, I will go to plan B. I appreciate the clever circuit to convert the Austron to a phase detector but the effort required to get just a phase detector alone isn’t cost effective for me. Opening up the Austron shows that there is a great deal of space. If the three Loran boards are gutted one of my Lucent Rubidium or Xtal standards will just fit in their place. The power supply appears to be robust for the power required. If not, there is space to add on. So to try to maximize the salvage of my purchase it looks like I should do the following. 1. Gut the Loran boards and get a Lucent unit installed and working. 2. Build a big honkin’ quality 60 KHz loop antenna. I live in the country so I can put up any size I can afford. 3. Convert the Austron RF amp boards to 60 KHz if I can get a schematic and get lucky. Does anyone have one or know where I could download it? 4. If I don’t get lucky, build a TRF receiver in place of the Austron RF boards. 60 KHz crystals are cheap from Mouser. Does anyone have experience building a ladder or similar crystal filter? 5. After I get a good working 60 KHz signal, I‘ll divide it by six and apply it to a Talbot 10 KHz phase detector. The Talbot circuit divides the 10 MHz reference oscillator to 10KHz using 74HC390 decade dividers. It then provides a correction circuit to the reference oscillator from its phase detector. Since the Talbot circuit on uses about six IC’s it will fit nicely in the rear chassis area. The goal, when completed, is to have a WWVB phase locked oscillator (yes I have to figure out what to do about diurnal shift) a reference frequency output and perhaps add a second Talbot phase detector circuit and meter for calibrating other oscillators. Yes, the GPS is more accurate more quickly but the issue is to have a second independent source for cross-checking. Though highly unlikely, GPS satellites can be shot down, disabled or turned off or have their outputs modified at any time. Comments? Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Yes indeed. I also have a hp rcvr. But Pauls request was for an alternate approach. I regularly matched LORAN C wwvb and GPS. It was nice having an alternate. wwvb really isn't but its about all we have now. On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 8:53 PM, k3...@aol.com wrote: All All of this design and mod info is wonderful and great to fill an engineering project workbook. You can spend about $500US and get a complete HP working system including GPS antenna which I have been monitiring to 10-12 for 14 mos now and it is stable Dr Joe In a message dated 10/4/2010 3:12:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sandee...@yahoo.com writes: Gents, Thanks for all the input on the HP 3586B and the Austron Loran C receiver. I’ll try to distill what’s been said. It appears that using the HP 3586B for a WWVB receiver isn’t a good idea unless I would use my HP 3336B or some other method to phase lock the BFO. Since this seems to be way out of the KISS principle, I will go to plan B. I appreciate the clever circuit to convert the Austron to a phase detector but the effort required to get just a phase detector alone isn’t cost effective for me. Opening up the Austron shows that there is a great deal of space. If the three Loran boards are gutted one of my Lucent Rubidium or Xtal standards will just fit in their place. The power supply appears to be robust for the power required. If not, there is space to add on. So to try to maximize the salvage of my purchase it looks like I should do the following. 1. Gut the Loran boards and get a Lucent unit installed and working. 2. Build a big honkin’ quality 60 KHz loop antenna. I live in the country so I can put up any size I can afford. 3. Convert the Austron RF amp boards to 60 KHz if I can get a schematic and get lucky. Does anyone have one or know where I could download it? 4. If I don’t get lucky, build a TRF receiver in place of the Austron RF boards. 60 KHz crystals are cheap from Mouser. Does anyone have experience building a ladder or similar crystal filter? 5. After I get a good working 60 KHz signal, I‘ll divide it by six and apply it to a Talbot 10 KHz phase detector. The Talbot circuit divides the 10 MHz reference oscillator to 10KHz using 74HC390 decade dividers. It then provides a correction circuit to the reference oscillator from its phase detector. Since the Talbot circuit on uses about six IC’s it will fit nicely in the rear chassis area. The goal, when completed, is to have a WWVB phase locked oscillator (yes I have to figure out what to do about diurnal shift) a reference frequency output and perhaps add a second Talbot phase detector circuit and meter for calibrating other oscillators. Yes, the GPS is more accurate more quickly but the issue is to have a second independent source for cross-checking. Though highly unlikely, GPS satellites can be shot down, disabled or turned off or have their outputs modified at any time. Comments? Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Doesn't someone on here with a Ham license have a Cs standard and could put up a 1pps signal? Simply transmit your callsign within the 1pps (there has to be a way) and we have a non-Govt. time standard if needed. A simple 1pps PSK-31 (or other digital mode) signal would probably work and be completely legal. Let's do this on our own and not rely on Govt. or GPS... Several throughout the world acting together (I'm not a programmer so someone could step up and figure out the logistics for a receiver) and we would have an alternative to GPS (IF/when it stops working). Yes? Just a thought... 73 Brice KA8MAV - Original Message - From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 10:53 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Yes indeed. I also have a hp rcvr. But Pauls request was for an alternate approach. I regularly matched LORAN C wwvb and GPS. It was nice having an alternate. wwvb really isn't but its about all we have now. On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 8:53 PM, k3...@aol.com wrote: All All of this design and mod info is wonderful and great to fill an engineering project workbook. You can spend about $500US and get a complete HP working system including GPS antenna which I have been monitiring to 10-12 for 14 mos now and it is stable Dr Joe In a message dated 10/4/2010 3:12:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sandee...@yahoo.com writes: Gents, Thanks for all the input on the HP 3586B and the Austron Loran C receiver. I’ll try to distill what’s been said. It appears that using the HP 3586B for a WWVB receiver isn’t a good idea unless I would use my HP 3336B or some other method to phase lock the BFO. Since this seems to be way out of the KISS principle, I will go to plan B. I appreciate the clever circuit to convert the Austron to a phase detector but the effort required to get just a phase detector alone isn’t cost effective for me. Opening up the Austron shows that there is a great deal of space. If the three Loran boards are gutted one of my Lucent Rubidium or Xtal standards will just fit in their place. The power supply appears to be robust for the power required. If not, there is space to add on. So to try to maximize the salvage of my purchase it looks like I should do the following. 1. Gut the Loran boards and get a Lucent unit installed and working. 2. Build a big honkin’ quality 60 KHz loop antenna. I live in the country so I can put up any size I can afford. 3. Convert the Austron RF amp boards to 60 KHz if I can get a schematic and get lucky. Does anyone have one or know where I could download it? 4. If I don’t get lucky, build a TRF receiver in place of the Austron RF boards. 60 KHz crystals are cheap from Mouser. Does anyone have experience building a ladder or similar crystal filter? 5. After I get a good working 60 KHz signal, I‘ll divide it by six and apply it to a Talbot 10 KHz phase detector. The Talbot circuit divides the 10 MHz reference oscillator to 10KHz using 74HC390 decade dividers. It then provides a correction circuit to the reference oscillator from its phase detector. Since the Talbot circuit on uses about six IC’s it will fit nicely in the rear chassis area. The goal, when completed, is to have a WWVB phase locked oscillator (yes I have to figure out what to do about diurnal shift) a reference frequency output and perhaps add a second Talbot phase detector circuit and meter for calibrating other oscillators. Yes, the GPS is more accurate more quickly but the issue is to have a second independent source for cross-checking. Though highly unlikely, GPS satellites can be shot down, disabled or turned off or have their outputs modified at any time. Comments? Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Heathkid wrote: Doesn't someone on here with a Ham license have a Cs standard and could put up a 1pps signal? Simply transmit your callsign within the 1pps (there has to be a way) and we have a non-Govt. time standard if needed. A simple 1pps PSK-31 (or other digital mode) signal would probably work and be completely legal. Let's do this on our own and not rely on Govt. or GPS... Several throughout the world acting together (I'm not a programmer so someone could step up and figure out the logistics for a receiver) and we would have an alternative to GPS (IF/when it stops working). a) broadcasts aren't legal for US hams b) ionospheric uncertainty in the skywave path makes this no better than WWV c) Whats wrong with GPS and/or WWV and/or CHU or whatever? d) A cheap Rb would give you a local reference that is much better than what you could do with receiving something via skywave. If you want something that isn't run by governments,and is a technical challenge, how about pulsars? I'd guess (not having looked into it at all) that is would be cheaper to set up a station to receive pulsars than to run a Cs standard. While I fully sympathize with the stand alone approach (that's one of the appeals of HF comms in general.. you aren't depending on anyone else's infrastructure), I don't know that setting up a time standards station fits in with that.. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Uhmmm There is this station called WWV that does just that on at least 5, 10 and 15MHz. And if you are worried about it being broadcast by the US government, you can always try CHU in Canada. And if you are worried about the station being in North America, there are time stations in virtually every corner of the world. -Chuck Harris Heathkid wrote: Doesn't someone on here with a Ham license have a Cs standard and could put up a 1pps signal? Simply transmit your callsign within the 1pps (there has to be a way) and we have a non-Govt. time standard if needed. A simple 1pps PSK-31 (or other digital mode) signal would probably work and be completely legal. Let's do this on our own and not rely on Govt. or GPS... Several throughout the world acting together (I'm not a programmer so someone could step up and figure out the logistics for a receiver) and we would have an alternative to GPS (IF/when it stops working). ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
a) broadcasts aren't legal for US hams b) ionospheric uncertainty in the skywave path makes this no better than WWV c) Whats wrong with GPS and/or WWV and/or CHU or whatever? d) A cheap Rb would give you a local reference that is much better than what you could do with receiving something via skywave. If you want something that isn't run by governments,and is a technical challenge, how about pulsars? I'd guess (not having looked into it at all) that is would be cheaper to set up a station to receive pulsars than to run a Cs standard. Pulsars take a big dish and they aren't all that good as a standard. A friend of mine proved that at Aricebo years and years ago. While I fully sympathize with the stand alone approach (that's one of the appeals of HF comms in general.. you aren't depending on anyone else's infrastructure), I don't know that setting up a time standards station fits in with that.. I've vaguely heard that there are some new ham allocations in the works below 500 KHz. How about setting up a beacon network that works like LORAN, but at a different frequency. A simple downconverter could then feed the signal into a LORAN receiver? FWIW, -John == ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Wow you really missed my point and by having someone listening/monitoring it is not broadcasting. Especially if it is in reality for the most part... telemetry. Maybe I wasn't clear or maybe my message could have been misunderstood. For that, I am truly sorry. I was thinking along the lines of what John stated, a beacon network that works like LORAN * I'll shut up now and go back to just reading the posts for another month or so... 73 Brice KA8MAV - Original Message - From: jimlux jim...@earthlink.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 11:39 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver Heathkid wrote: Doesn't someone on here with a Ham license have a Cs standard and could put up a 1pps signal? Simply transmit your callsign within the 1pps (there has to be a way) and we have a non-Govt. time standard if needed. A simple 1pps PSK-31 (or other digital mode) signal would probably work and be completely legal. Let's do this on our own and not rely on Govt. or GPS... Several throughout the world acting together (I'm not a programmer so someone could step up and figure out the logistics for a receiver) and we would have an alternative to GPS (IF/when it stops working). a) broadcasts aren't legal for US hams b) ionospheric uncertainty in the skywave path makes this no better than WWV c) Whats wrong with GPS and/or WWV and/or CHU or whatever? d) A cheap Rb would give you a local reference that is much better than what you could do with receiving something via skywave. If you want something that isn't run by governments,and is a technical challenge, how about pulsars? I'd guess (not having looked into it at all) that is would be cheaper to set up a station to receive pulsars than to run a Cs standard. While I fully sympathize with the stand alone approach (that's one of the appeals of HF comms in general.. you aren't depending on anyone else's infrastructure), I don't know that setting up a time standards station fits in with that.. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
One more note before I just read the posts for a while... a) broadcasts aren't legal for US hams Do some reading on telemetry and when broadcasts ARE allowed. I've been a Ham for more than 30+ years. b) ionospheric uncertainty in the skywave path makes this no better than WWV No kidding... but without GPS (and assuming no Internet as well) how do we sync our clocks besides RF? c) Whats wrong with GPS and/or WWV and/or CHU or whatever? Nothing as long as they are TRANSMITTING. d) A cheap Rb would give you a local reference that is much better than what you could do with receiving something via skywave. I have three Rb standards to go along with my two Thunderbolts. If you want something that isn't run by governments,and is a technical challenge, how about pulsars? I'd guess (not having looked into it at all) that is would be cheaper to set up a station to receive pulsars than to run a Cs standard. Are you serious? Cheaper? Really? I'll trade you a Thunderbolt... complete kit! for a full Pulsar time/frequency reference receiving station that is reliable (and the real-estate plus equipment for a dish large enough for it!). ;) While I fully sympathize with the stand alone approach (that's one of the appeals of HF comms in general.. you aren't depending on anyone else's infrastructure), I don't know that setting up a time standards station fits in with that.. I have *many* mechanical watches. I can easily calculate NOON from the sun at anytime during the year. That's a reference and I can set my watch by it. I don't need you or anyone else to tell me what time it is. If my watch isn't accurate or precise or is off my 1mS/day (or hour)... does it *really* matter if the GPS sats are down (think about it... why would they be down)? What time is it? *that wasn't my point* it's relative and I'm not going to go further with this discussion. I just thought a time-nuts based time system was an interesting prospect. ...done. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
It hears WWVB quite well, but then it is a rather strong signal. Seriously, a HP3586B would be a fine receiver for a WWVB timing setup, but way, way, overkill. In other words, perfect for time-nuts! -Chuck Perry Sandeen wrote: Gents, Has anybody used a HP 3586B for a 60KHz receiver? If so, how well did it work? Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
Hi John, Comparison to a local standard would probably work out better with a TRF receiver than with a superhet... too many standards to sort out. It would be trivial to use a 3586B to detect the time signal, you can hear it chugging along merrily. -Chuck Harris J. Forster wrote: Hi Chuck, Hearing the WWVB signal is one thing, but how do you compare the received signal to your local standard? The 3586C has a Carrier Track function, which is waaay kewl IMO, and an external reference input, but how would you do the comparison to parts in 10 E7 or better? -John == It hears WWVB quite well, but then it is a rather strong signal. Seriously, a HP3586B would be a fine receiver for a WWVB timing setup, but way, way, overkill. In other words, perfect for time-nuts! -Chuck Perry Sandeen wrote: Gents, Has anybody used a HP 3586B for a 60KHz receiver? If so, how well did it work? Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver
the 3586s work fine for hearing wwvb. But it does get interesting on tracking the signal. Its tough on the eastcoast. On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 7:45 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: Hi John, Comparison to a local standard would probably work out better with a TRF receiver than with a superhet... too many standards to sort out. Yup. Hence my question. It would be trivial to use a 3586B to detect the time signal, you can hear it chugging along merrily. But, I doubt the time signal is really all that useful for adjusting a local standard. WWV would work better. -John == -Chuck Harris J. Forster wrote: Hi Chuck, Hearing the WWVB signal is one thing, but how do you compare the received signal to your local standard? The 3586C has a Carrier Track function, which is waaay kewl IMO, and an external reference input, but how would you do the comparison to parts in 10 E7 or better? -John == It hears WWVB quite well, but then it is a rather strong signal. Seriously, a HP3586B would be a fine receiver for a WWVB timing setup, but way, way, overkill. In other words, perfect for time-nuts! -Chuck Perry Sandeen wrote: Gents, Has anybody used a HP 3586B for a 60KHz receiver? If so, how well did it work? Regards, Perrier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
