Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach

[JC]

Hi Guys

I would say vertical IN the salt water. George AA7JV is my mentor about
antennas, and his 160m vertical is at the pear, just 2 m from the salt
water, the ground plane is a flat sheet SS metal 1 ft. x 20~30  ft. that
goes inside the water , dropping 10 from the pear wall and on the see floor
for 10 to 20 ft. if I'm not wrong. 

My antenna is a stand free tower 116ft with a good a good radial system 20
miles from the beach and 40 miles north of George in Miami, I'm in Fort
Lauderdale. George can beat my signal or equivalent to my signal in Europe
with only 5 w. I need 1KW to get close to his signal with 5w. We did some
tests 3 or 4 years ago. Now with RBN we can run some tests again next fall.

Regards
JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Hardy
Landskov
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 10:23 PM
To: Yuri Blanarovich; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach

Yuri,
Thanks for your input. Tom asks, where are the other stations? It is a one
pony race.  Well I am sure if we look at the CQ logs for that year we will
see that there were other Carib stations on but we did not hear them out
here--that is my point. I can't compare a set of verticals on the beach IF I
CAN'T HEAR ANYONE ELSE AT THAT GENERAL QTH AT THAT TIME!
Verticals on the beach are a winner...nuff said.
73 N7RT

- Original Message -
From: Yuri Blanarovich k...@optimum.net
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach


 One pony needs to get into one drag radio car and drive around the ocean 
 front, over the bridges, back over the land and watch the S-meter and 
 listen to the bands. Observant would see 10 - 20 dB difference in signal 
 levels in lousy mobile, especially on low angle propagation.

 Examples: Driving around Sydney, NS and listening to Disney 1670 AM in 
 NJ - no signals over land, full quieting solid signal while driving on 
 bridge over salt water.
 While contesting as N2EE from Cape Hatteras, NC on 10m in contest, was 
 told by ZS6EZ to be the first NA he heard, with vertical on the beach.
 Results of Team Vertical speak for themselves.
 Some of us do know. The reverse beacons testing can verify or legitimize 
 modeling program's calculated guessing.

 Yuri, K3BU.us



 On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 11:02 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:

  My point is if no one else is on, we really don't how other signals
 would be. It's like a drag race with just one car, or a pony show with one

 horse.


 - Original Message - From: Hardy Landskov To: Tom W8JI ; 
 TopBand List Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 9:08 PM
 Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach


 Tom,
 I was totallly not expecting any station from that direction, just 
 thought I'd work a few locals with high incident angles before Sunset 
 here. Then I heard the 6Y2 guys and it was amazing. He was the only 
 station--no KV4FZ, NP4A, etc and certainly no EU at our time. Made me a 
 believer in beach verticals.
 73 N7RT

 - Original Message - From: Tom W8JI To: TopBand List Sent: 
 Sunday, August 10, 2014 5:20 PM
 Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach


 How was his signal compared to someone from a similar heading and 
 distance at the same time who was not on the beach?


 - Original Message - From: Hardy Landskov To: Guy Olinger 
 K2AV ; Richard Fry
 Cc: TopBand List Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 7:35 PM
 Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach


 Just an observation to all:
 When Tom, N6BT went to Jaimaca and operated 6Y2J (I think was the 
 call) with verticals on the beach I was blown away. I heard them 2 
 hours before Sunset here on 160nuff said. The proof is in the 
 pudding.
 73 N7RT

 - Original Message - From: Guy Olinger K2AV To: Richard 
 Fry Cc: TopBand List Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2014 8:35 PM
 Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach


 Just to mention that the prior opinion is controversial and not 
 universally
 agreed upon. Nor to date has anyone surfaced with actual measurements

 made
 at the distances (25 to 50 km) and with span of altitudes (0 to 10 
 km) to
 either prove or disprove either side.

 It remains unproven modelling from NEC at those distances either way.

 This
 situation may, alas, persist this way, because the precise subject
 resolution appears to be without benefit to any commercial interest 
 and
 therefore without funds to pay for some pretty expensive 
 experimenting
 involving precision measurements from aircraft.

 Additionally, there is considerable suspicion that moving from LF to 
 MF in
 this general subject involves a ground modal change of some sort that

 would
 render 50x10 km measurments at 0.5 or 1 MHz unlike those at 2 MHz,
 rendering commercial measurements at low and possibly high BC

Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach

[JC]

If it was really 10-20 dB, shore locations would stand out like a sore thumb
compared to inland locations. Everyone from around New England is about the
same. Heck, K3LR is on the Ohio/PA border and does just as well or better
than coastal stations in signal levels.

 Hi Tom

Costal stations are not different from inland stations. There is a major
difference lost between  so many e-mails and replays. 

Near the water , near the beach ,or on the  sand beach does not provide any
improvement on the transmit signal , the only way to see or  measure this 10
to 20 db gains is ONLY with station with the radial system INSIDE de salt
water , nor near , not almost., IN.

As George AA7JV always mention it, is you have a copper plate of the size a
football field to use as ground plane where you should install your
vertical? 1 meter far from it? 10 Ft. 100m , .. well I assume we all agree
that the vertical should be on top of  the copper plate.

A vertical over different ground has almost no difference on signal
intensity above 10 degree, but  what happens bellow 10 degree  , 5 degree
gain, 2 degree gain or 1 degree elevation gain. Well, at that point inland
vertical has almost nothing to show at 1 degree elevation angle.  However
when the propagation needs only 30 t0 40 degree take off angle there is
nothing to compare.  

Adding the gain on low elevation with some hops avoided during the path.
With low elevation angle the number of hops are different and the
attenuation is different as well.  The perception , and here you are 100%
right, the perception on the receiver  end  could be 10 to 20 d. 

George has been very busy with is new business lately, however I will invite
him to run some tests next month, and present here the results.

My two cents. 


JC 
N4IS




- Original Message -
From: Michael Tope w...@dellroy.com
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach


 On 8/13/2014 6:28 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:


 But skimmer, which displays a relative level, does not show the level 
 difference.

 Skimmer shows about the same peak levels, but the stations closer or over

 salt water paths (not localized salt water) have longer openings but no 
 more level for peak level. Anyone can look at that.

 K3LR is about as strong into Europe, when I look at skimmer levels, as 
 someone on the coast.

 The exceptions are people right next door to Europe (like VY1).


 73 Tom

 Tom,

 How much skimmer data did you mine before establishing a firm conclusion 
 that the advantages of saltwater proximity are exaggerated?

 Myself, I think of how well AA7JV and HA7RY have done at various locations

 using antennas that were very close to or in some cases literally in the 
 saltwater. The consistency of their topband signals compared to 
 Dxpeditions who were confined to inland locations seems to point to a big 
 advantage. I'll admit, however, that this hypotheses comes about from 
 anecdotal observations filtered through a mental lens that is biased 
 towards believing saltwater is a huge advantage.

 I think using skimmer is an excellent approach to this question provided 
 of course that you have mined enough data to filter out the statistical 
 noise.

 73, Mike W4EF...

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Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial vertical on a beach

[JC]

One excellent example of use  vertical  array for HF on the beach was VP6DX
Ducie Island 2008

http://ducie2008.dl1mgb.com/equipment/index.php

Fantastic performance and results.

N4IS
JC
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Topband: WATCH OUT !!Did you get a new cable modem from Comcast? Arris Modem equal lots of QRM

[JC]

Hi guys

I would like to share with you what NX4D just found out. Doug has
experiencing a strong noise on top band for almost a year. He did try to
find it everywhere, disconnected all appliances in the house and the noise
was still roaring.

For some coincidence Dug removed the cable from the modem and the noise
quit. The issue is that the Arris modem has an internal battery to work
without AC power and when you remove it from the AC line the modem is still
generating noise and you can come up into a conclusion the modem is clean.

It is not, actually there are  several reports of RFI going on for several
years and FCC is doing nothing to stop it.

Here another source of information about that modem

http://forums.comcast.com/t5/Voice-Service-and-Equipment/RFI-Caused-by-Arris
-Modem/td-p/548591

Doug also found many complaints about Cisco Modems too, especially the
switching supply wall warts.

So watch out  is you have Comcast cable modem, it is necessary to choke the
cable and the AC cord with FT240 # 31. With this fix ,the noise dropped from
s8 to s0 but still audible at Doug receiver.

Regards
JC
N4IS


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Re: Topband: ARRL160 Test conditions

[JC]

 

Hi guys

 

We have a new class of station this year, few but some European stations
running contest from remote station in US using European call sign, not
W4/ or W7/xxx not even xxx/W4.

 

Today with the RBN it is easy to confirm where the station is transmitting,
you just need to search the call sign r down load the report with all
reports and filter it using Excel. 

 

First of all , it is illegal to operate in US without a US license not
mention the ethic that does not exist and the Ham radio contest aspect of
the event. Forget about DCXX program the issue is real treat for all of us
that love what we do in 160m.

 

Check that small report from RBN from EA7PP yesterday night, you can verify
reports up to 52db signal in Virginia RBN station and several over 40 db in
US at the same time 5-15 db in Europe and sometimes up to 24 db in Europe.

 

http://www.reversebeacon.net/dxsd1/dxsd1.php?f=0
http://www.reversebeacon.net/dxsd1/dxsd1.php?f=0c=ea7ppt=dx
c=ea7ppt=dx

 

just unbelievable!!

 

73's

N4IS

JC

 

show/hide my last filters

rows to show:   showing spots for DX call: EA7PP 

search spot by callsign

de  dx   freq   cq/dxsnr speed   time

EA1FAQ EA7PP 1819.8   CW CQ  40 dB 26 wpm   0414z 06 Dec

 

DL8LAS EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  19 dB 25 wpm   0414z 06 Dec

DF7GB  EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  15 dB 26 wpm   0414z 06 Dec

LA6TPA EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  2 dB   27 wpm   0414z 06 Dec

 

K8ND EA7PP   1819.7   CW CQ   38 dB 25 wpm 0413z 06 Dec

KM3T EA7PP   1819.7   CW CQ   39 dB 26 wpm 0413z 06 Dec

 

DF4UE  EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  38 dB 27 wpm   0413z 06 Dec

 

ON5KQ EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  25 dB 27 wpm   0413z 06 Dec

NZ1UEA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  39 dB 26 wpm   0412z 06 Dec

EI6IZ  EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  27 dB 26 wpm   0411z 06
Dec

HA6M   EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  14 dB 27 wpm   0411z 06 Dec

 

F6IIT  EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  35 dB 27 wpm   0411z 06
Dec

 

OH6BG EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  22 dB 26 wpm   0410z 06 Dec

DQ8Z EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  12 dB 26 wpm   0410z 06 Dec

G0KTN  EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  18 dB 26 wpm   0410z 06 Dec

IK3STG   EA7PP   1819.7   CW CQ   8 dB26 wpm 0410z 06 Dec

W4KKN  EA7PP   1819.7   CW CQ   44 dB 29 wpm 0410z 06 Dec

G4HSO   EA7PP   1819.7   CW CQ   15 dB 26 wpm 0410z 06 Dec

DK9IPEA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  26 dB 27 wpm   0410z 06 Dec

SE0X  EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  13 dB 26 wpm   0410z 06 Dec

DL1EMYEA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  26 dB 27 wpm   0410z 06 Dec

OE6TZE EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  16 dB 26 wpm   0410z 06 Dec

S50ARX EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  24 dB 27 wpm   0410z 06 Dec

HA1VHFEA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  32 dB 26 wpm   0410z 06 Dec

GW8IZREA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  28 dB 26 wpm   0410z 06 Dec

DL9GTBEA7PP   1819.7   CW CQ  28 dB 26 wpm   0410z 06 Dec

 

NY3A EA7PP   1819.7   CW CQ   39 dB 26 wpm 0408z 06 Dec

W8WTSEA7PP 1819.7   CW CQ   36 dB 26 wpm 0408z 06 Dec

 

K1TTTEA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  18 dB 27 wpm   0408z 06 Dec

W8WWV EA7PP1819.7 CW CQ 36 dB 27 wpm   0408z 06 Dec

DL1AMQ EA7PP1819.7  CW CQ  27 dB 27 wpm   0407z 06 Dec

 

SK3WEA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  36 dB 26 wpm   0406z 06 Dec

PY1NB  EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  4 dB   26 wpm   0403z 06 Dec

ON5KQ EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  24 dB 26 wpm   0403z 06 Dec

IK3STG EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  10 dB 27 wpm   0400z 06 Dec

K8AZ  EA7PP   1819.7   CW CQ   28 dB 26 wpm 0400z 06 Dec

WZ7I  EA7PP   1819.7   CW CQ   27 dB 26 wpm 0400z 06 Dec

DQ8Z EA7PP   1819.7   CW CQ   8 dB26 wpm 0400z 06 Dec

 

G4HSO   EA7PP   1819.7   CW CQ   15 dB 27 wpm 0400z 06 Dec

KM3T EA7PP   1819.7   CW CQ   28 dB 26 wpm 0400z 06 Dec

DK9IP EA7PP   1819.7   CW CQ   17 dB 26 wpm 0400z 06 Dec

 

F6IIT  EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  35 dB 26 wpm   0400z 06
Dec

SE0X  EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  13 dB 26 wpm   0400z 06 Dec

DL1EMYEA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  29 dB 26 wpm   0400z 06 Dec

DL8LAS EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  16 dB 26 wpm   0400z 06 Dec

OE6TZE EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  11 dB 26 wpm   0400z 06 Dec

HA1VHFEA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  20 dB 27 wpm   0400z 06 Dec

GW8IZREA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  29 dB 27 wpm   0400z 06 Dec

DF4UE  EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  25 dB 27 wpm   0400z 06 Dec

EI6IZ  EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  31 dB 27 wpm   0359z 06
Dec

DL9GTBEA7PP   1819.7   CW CQ  16 dB 26 wpm   0359z 06 Dec

OH6BG EA7PP  1819.7   CW CQ  14 dB 26

Re: Topband: ARRL160 Test conditions

[JC]

Hi Saulus

 

Yes, I did it, Actually you had one of the best signals from Europe all night 
long. You can see the HUGE difference, few US reports and lots of European  RBN 
, some goods report from 2 US RBN only once, like 33db 6z, probably SR peak , I 
can see one from W4KKN 9db , Huge difference from 52dB.

 

You can download the raw data report from any time and any day for the last 5 
years here

 

http://www.reversebeacon.net/raw_data/

 

Regards

JC

N4IS

 

 

show/hide my last filters

rows to show:   showing spots for DX call: IQ9UI 

search spot by callsign

de  dx   freq   cq/dxsnr speed   time

S50ARX IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  0 dB   24 wpm   0619z 06 
Dec

HA5PP  IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  13 dB 24 wpm   0618z 06 
Dec

DQ8Z IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  5 dB   24 wpm   0617z 
06 Dec

G0KTN  IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  8 dB   24 wpm   0616z 06 
Dec

DL9GTB IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  5 dB   24 wpm   0616z 06 
Dec

SE0X  IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  12 dB 24 wpm   0616z 
06 Dec

DF7GB  IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  7 dB   23 wpm   0616z 06 
Dec

DL8LAS IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  5 dB   25 wpm   0616z 06 
Dec

SK3WIQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  15 dB 24 wpm   0616z 06 
Dec

GW8IZR IQ9UI  1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  13 dB 24 wpm   0616z 06 Dec

OE6TZE IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  20 dB 24 wpm   0616z 06 
Dec

EI6IZ  IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  16 dB 24 wpm   0616z 
06 Dec

HA6M   IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  15 dB 24 wpm   0616z 06 
Dec

HA1VHFIQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  18 dB 24 wpm   0615z 06 Dec

DF4UE  IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  23 dB 24 wpm   0615z 06 
Dec

DL1EMYIQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  22 dB 24 wpm   0615z 06 Dec

IK3STG IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  15 dB 24 wpm   0615z 06 
Dec

ON5KQ IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  21 dB 24 wpm   0615z 06 Dec

DL1AMQIQ9UI  1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  16 dB 24 wpm   0615z 06 Dec

EA1FAQ IQ9UI  1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  19 dB 24 wpm   0614z 06 Dec

DL1REM IQ9UI  1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  25 dB 24 wpm   0612z 06 Dec

DQ8Z IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  6 dB   24 wpm   0607z 
06 Dec

 

W8WWVIQ9UI 1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW] 33 dB 24 wpm   0607z 06 Dec

KS4XQ  IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW] 33 dB 24 wpm   0606z 06 Dec

 

G0KTN  IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  13 dB 24 wpm   0606z 06 
Dec

SE0X  IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  15 dB 24 wpm   0606z 
06 Dec

DL9GTB IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  9 dB   24 wpm   0606z 06 
Dec

NY3A IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  27 dB 24 wpm   0606z 06 
Dec

GW8IZRIQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  16 dB 24 wpm   0606z 06 Dec

OE6TZE IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  22 dB 24 wpm   0606z 06 
Dec

EI6IZ  IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  25 dB 24 wpm   0606z 
06 Dec

DF7GB  IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  10 dB 24 wpm   0606z 06 
Dec

HA6M   IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  18 dB 24 wpm   0606z 06 
Dec

WZ7I IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  26 dB 23 wpm   0606z 06 
Dec

HA1VHFIQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  29 dB 24 wpm   0605z 06 Dec

DF4UE  IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  19 dB 24 wpm   0605z 06 
Dec

DL1EMY IQ9UI  1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  20 dB 24 wpm   0605z 06 Dec

DL8LAS IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  7 dB   24 wpm   0605z 06 
Dec

IK3STG IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  21 dB 24 wpm   0605z 06 
Dec

SK3WIQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  20 dB 24 wpm   0605z 06 
Dec

DL1REM IQ9UI  1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  24 dB 24 wpm   0605z 06 Dec

ON5KQ IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  19 dB 24 wpm   0605z 06 Dec

K8AZ IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  27 dB 24 wpm   0603z 06 
Dec

F6IIT  IQ9UI   3661.4   CW CQ [LoTW]  5 dB   24 wpm   0559z 
06 Dec

 

NZ1UIQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  4 dB   24 wpm   0558z 06 
Dec

W4KKN IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW] 9 dB   23 wpm   0557z 06 Dec

 

G4HSO IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  3 dB   23 wpm   0557z 06 
Dec

 

W4AX   IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  7 dB   24 wpm   0557z 06 
Dec

 

DQ8Z IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  5 dB   24 wpm   0557z 
06 Dec

 

K1TTTIQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  6 dB   24 wpm   0556z 
06 Dec

KS4XQ  IQ9UI   1830.7   CW CQ [LoTW]  8 dB   24 wpm   0556z 06 
Dec

 

DL8LAS IQ9UI   1830.7

Re: Topband: EA7PP - Remote

[JC]

Hi Jose


That was me. I was testing my new RX antennas comparing signals from Europe 
during the contest . WOW you guys have the best site for 160m in Europe, I was 
impressed with the signal and the reports on RBN, really signal as local signal 
in US. 

Regards
Jose Carlos
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jose Ramon
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 5:29 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: EA7PP - Remote

Hi all,

I have just subscribed to this reflector- A friend of mine told me there was 
something about EA7PP's operation during this w/e 160m contest.

Someone suggested EA7PP uses a remote in the US as his signal was on the RBN 
outstanding. More than being an offending remark it's a compliment.

We spent yesterday the whole evening at EA7PP's contest station setting a 
modest EWE pointing to US and built in site a receiver protecting device.

Set up is very simple, an inverted L up to 18 metres on a fiber glass ple and 
then about 21 metres horizontal to the tower (23m) . Only 2 tuned elevated 
radials circling the plot as it is very small. Soil is very conductive and it 
has been raining a lot during the last couple of weeks.

This is a rural area, almost no cellphone network coverage. Internet connection 
is poor, a 4 miles 2.3 GHz link to a home in town, as the good 5 GHz was 
damaged during a storm.

The contest started last night and I was still soldering wires to the 
protection boxes while listening to some good East Coast signal.

I wrote a message to Pepe to his WhastApp. When he wakes up from his siesta 
first thing he will ask me is what the hell is a remote?

Zé Carlos, muito grato pelos elogios, our tiny contest farm works! it's 
encouraging.

73
Jose, EA7KW
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Re: Topband: 8 circle: DXE vs Hi-Z

[JC]

Hi guys

I would like to commented on the subject of RX comparison

Tom when you introduced the RDF methodology to measure directivity, you
really hit the nail in the head. I'm working on RX antennas only since 2005,
after hundreds of tests, I am sure that just 1db RDF matters a lot.

When you compare RX antennas you really want to know how much you can
improve from your TX antenna Signal to Noise Ratio. Better RDF means better
SNR, similar RX antennas performance have similar RDF. 1 RDF does help a lot
when the signal is just  2 db above noise and you can't pull it out, adding
just 1 db you can change from 339 to 449 and log a QSO, or new country.

3db SNR is just what you need on cw.

The implementation of the RX is different from EZNEC , you need to consider
all elements neat resonance that will be part of the RX system and
deteriorate RDF, it means deteriorating SNR. Common mode noise is not well
understood for most of DXer's including grounding, these are factors to
consider as well.

My recommendation is to kook in the space you have and select the best RDF
Rx antenna for your available space.

Nothing beats the 13.8db RDF from 8 circle array, but you need 300ft radius
to achieve that directivity. If you are able to broadside some good RX
antennas and get over 14 dB RDF you shall expect better SNR than the 8
cycle/300ft. 

Remember to detune your TX antenna during RX,  It is hard to measure that
and sometimes the only way is to compare the SNR from the TX antenna with
the RX antenna, is you are using a 11db RDF system you should see more than
10db SNR over the TX antenna. It means you can hear Q5 signals not even
detected by the TX antenna, it is not about move comfortable e copy , it is
about to hear what is not there in the RX antenna.

Detuning he tower won't fix other common mode noise, like cables not
grounded, bad grounding, rotor cable 120 ft long working like a vertical,
etc, It is necessary  detune them all.

Regards
JC





-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tom W8JI
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 7:52 AM
To: Lee K7TJR; 'Bob Tabke'; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: 8 circle: DXE vs Hi-Z

Lee,

We probably will just have to disagree about this.

From my viewpoint, the behavior isn't too much different than a big yagi
stack or other antennas we are used to.

The size of the array generally sets the directivity limits. We can add more
elements that are closer-in than optimum, and that can certainly help if the
size is smaller than optimum, but the trade is gain or pattern cleanliness
and sharpness for size.

The forward two elements and back two elements are too close to contribute
broadside pattern, which is what provides the clean pattern absent major
side lobes in the full size 8 circle. As a matter of fact, adding them in
destroys some of the broadside directivity.

If, however, we make the array so small that it loses broadside pattern
multiplication, then we can see an increase in directivity through the small
endfire length increase.

A .327wl radius array gives about .25 wl endfire spacing in the primary
cells (the center elements), and is not improved in pattern quality by
adding the forward and rearward cells. The two forward pairs and rearward
pairs are not only too close to have broadside pattern contribution, they
are closer endfire. They are about 75% of the endfire spacing in the central
quad, and nearly 40% of the broadside width.  They certainly can contribute
endfire, but they actually remove broadside directivity in the process!

In an optimum size array the amplitude ratio from the primary quad has to be
4:1 or 5:1 or more to prevent some pretty significant pattern null area
deterioration when the additional 4 elements are added, because they
deteriorate broadside pattern multiplication faster than they contribute
endfire gain (at ~.187 spacing when the primary endfire cell has .25 wl
spacing).

If the array is made so small that there is little broadside contribution
from array width, then the addition of the four will improve things. There
isn't any broadside pattern to hurt. That isn't the same as a broad general
statement that using more of the elements allows the array to be made
smaller, unless we want to compromise pattern to have the same directivity.

I go through similar things with Yagi arrays. All of my Hygain 5 element
Yagis have been changed to four elements, and my KLM six elements have
become 5's. :) It isn't so much they work better, they just work different
in a way that is a better compromise for pattern, bandwidth, complexity, and
gain.

Everything is a compromise. If the target is maximum directivity and a clean
pattern (more like a flashlight), the array has to be large.  It can never
be the same if small, or we all be running multi-element short boom antennas
in close-spaced stacks.

I do agree, however, if space is so limited the array can't use broadside
multiplication (which

Re: Topband: 8 circle: DXE vs Hi-Z

[JC]

Hi guys

Polarization does play a lot on 160m for two reasons. I can say that because
I am using my HWF (two horizontal flags end fire) since 2009. The first one
is local man made noise that propagate only vertical due the attenuation on
the horizontal component near the ground. And Second the DX signal always
come in both polarization. 
The result form the two reasons is an optimized signal to noise ration using
horizontal polarization. 

I have both WF with the same RDF, during SR or SS there is almost no sky
noise coming from the back because of the darkness, however local man made
noise comes from any direction, especially if you live in a city lot like I
do. Most of the time the noise is coming at the same direction you want to
hear the DX, and if you add power line noise the situation deteriorates a
lot for the VWF due vertical polarization. Using my HWF I normally get 10 dB
better SNR than my VWF that has the same RDF and same aperture of 74  degree
measures, I can turn the antenna and measure it, they are not optimized for
best F/B, I optimized them for maximum rejection of local man made noise.

The HWF is not a dipole. The two phased loops take of angle us 40 degree and
there is a huge attenuation for signals above 60 degree. Low dipole is a
huge issue if the dipole is resonant, it will interact with all other
receiver antennas and will destroy directivity of all of them, if you want
to use a low dipole make it not resonant. Gain in not important so it  can
be short as a 30 m dipole and still will hear the same way. Another issue
with low dipoles is the amount of energy absorbed from the TX antenna. If
you connect a power meter and a 50 ohms load o the low dipole and transmit
KW on the TX antenna, you can measure several WATTS at the low dipole . You
can burn you front end with a low resonant dipole.

Adding to all that there is another very interesting observation from my
last 5 year using a high RDF horizontal RX antenna, when the TX signal
refract on the ionosphere the signal split in two waves, that was very well
explained by K9LA. What I observed is that these two waves does propagate in
different directions. I normally receive VK6 near my SR with better SNR
horizontal from 210 degree SSW and with better SNR from 280 degree vertical.
Sometimes the horizontal peak is 20 minutes before the vertical peak that is
most of the time at my SR.

73's
N4IS
JC








-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of John
Kaufmann
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 8:59 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: 8 circle: DXE vs Hi-Z

Good points about polarization.  If the signals and/or noise are polarized
predominantly in one state, then RDF may not be a good predictor of SNR
performance, particularly if the antenna receives predominantly in an
orthogonal polarization.  On the other hand, if the polarization state of
the signals and noise evolve randomly with no preference for any one state,
which is often assumed for skywave signals, then RDF will be--on average--a
good receiving metric, subject to the previous stated qualifications about
the spatial distribution of the received noise.  However, some of the past
discussions on this reflector about preferential polarization of skywave
signals on 160 may call into question the assumption of randomly polarized
signals.

73, John W1FV


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Richard
(Rick) Karlquist
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 3:19 PM
To: Lee K7TJR; 'Terry Posey'; 'John Kaufmann'; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: 8 circle: DXE vs Hi-Z

All this discussion about RDF overlooks the issue of polarization.  If you
make an array of verticals with a certain RDF (assuming noise comes from all
directions uniformly), the array will be better than an individual vertical
by the RDF factor.  However, what I have found is that a horizontally
polarized antenna, such as a low dipole frequently receives considerably
better than a vertical.  In that case, you would be better off using an
array of low dipoles.  The reason why horizontal polarization can be better
is that the horizontal component of terrestrial based noise is highly
attenuated over distance as a ground wave.

Rick N6RK
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Re: Topband: 8 circle: DXE vs Hi-Z

[JC]

I forgot to mention another very important development. My friend N8PR is
experiencing with the WF in another level, Peter is using a rotator to turn
the WF vertical to horizontal. He worked FT4TA on 160m with the WF at 45
degree polarization, (not elevation, the rotor turns axial) and only 45
degree at the right side, turning the WF 45 degree on the left side the
signal was below noise and any other polarization was not good that day.

Peter has a lot of noise from a AM BC station 1 mile from his QTH and he is
working to improve the common node noise. However the experiment with
polarization rotation is providing return in new countries for him.

Regards
JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: JC [mailto:n...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 1:02 PM
To: 'Tom W8JI'; 'Lee K7TJR'; 'Bob Tabke'; 'topband@contesting.com'
Subject: RE: Topband: 8 circle: DXE vs Hi-Z

Hi guys

I would like to commented on the subject of RX comparison

Tom when you introduced the RDF methodology to measure directivity, you
really hit the nail in the head. I'm working on RX antennas only since 2005,
after hundreds of tests, I am sure that just 1db RDF matters a lot.

When you compare RX antennas you really want to know how much you can
improve from your TX antenna Signal to Noise Ratio. Better RDF means better
SNR, similar RX antennas performance have similar RDF. 1 RDF does help a lot
when the signal is just  2 db above noise and you can't pull it out, adding
just 1 db you can change from 339 to 449 and log a QSO, or new country.

3db SNR is just what you need on cw.

The implementation of the RX is different from EZNEC , you need to consider
all elements neat resonance that will be part of the RX system and
deteriorate RDF, it means deteriorating SNR. Common mode noise is not well
understood for most of DXer's including grounding, these are factors to
consider as well.

My recommendation is to kook in the space you have and select the best RDF
Rx antenna for your available space.

Nothing beats the 13.8db RDF from 8 circle array, but you need 300ft radius
to achieve that directivity. If you are able to broadside some good RX
antennas and get over 14 dB RDF you shall expect better SNR than the 8
cycle/300ft. 

Remember to detune your TX antenna during RX,  It is hard to measure that
and sometimes the only way is to compare the SNR from the TX antenna with
the RX antenna, is you are using a 11db RDF system you should see more than
10db SNR over the TX antenna. It means you can hear Q5 signals not even
detected by the TX antenna, it is not about move comfortable e copy , it is
about to hear what is not there in the RX antenna.

Detuning he tower won't fix other common mode noise, like cables not
grounded, bad grounding, rotor cable 120 ft long working like a vertical,
etc, It is necessary  detune them all.

Regards
JC





-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tom W8JI
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 7:52 AM
To: Lee K7TJR; 'Bob Tabke'; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: 8 circle: DXE vs Hi-Z

Lee,

We probably will just have to disagree about this.

From my viewpoint, the behavior isn't too much different than a big yagi
stack or other antennas we are used to.

The size of the array generally sets the directivity limits. We can add more
elements that are closer-in than optimum, and that can certainly help if the
size is smaller than optimum, but the trade is gain or pattern cleanliness
and sharpness for size.

The forward two elements and back two elements are too close to contribute
broadside pattern, which is what provides the clean pattern absent major
side lobes in the full size 8 circle. As a matter of fact, adding them in
destroys some of the broadside directivity.

If, however, we make the array so small that it loses broadside pattern
multiplication, then we can see an increase in directivity through the small
endfire length increase.

A .327wl radius array gives about .25 wl endfire spacing in the primary
cells (the center elements), and is not improved in pattern quality by
adding the forward and rearward cells. The two forward pairs and rearward
pairs are not only too close to have broadside pattern contribution, they
are closer endfire. They are about 75% of the endfire spacing in the central
quad, and nearly 40% of the broadside width.  They certainly can contribute
endfire, but they actually remove broadside directivity in the process!

In an optimum size array the amplitude ratio from the primary quad has to be
4:1 or 5:1 or more to prevent some pretty significant pattern null area
deterioration when the additional 4 elements are added, because they
deteriorate broadside pattern multiplication faster than they contribute
endfire gain (at ~.187 spacing when the primary endfire cell has .25 wl
spacing).

If the array is made so small that there is little broadside contribution
from array width, then the addition of the four will improve

Re: Topband: 8 circle: DXE vs Hi-Z

[JC]

Hi David and Don

I understand your point. Gain is cheap and quite easy to get with a good low
noise amplifier, but to keep the common mode noise out of it is very
expensive, and could be very complicated. The beverages are very forgiveness
and does not requires much amplification. It is an ideal antenna.

The noise measured  at 500Hz BW on my TX antenna, varies from average -90
dB, when I do not have power line noise to -100 dB few mornings during
winter. The noise floor from my HWF is - 120dB (500Hz BW) after a 43db gain
preamp (.5dB NF).   I have no space for beverages and my station with all
antennas uses only  150ft  x 100ft. Using 100 Hz BW the noise floor drops to
-145dB during the day. Connecting the HWF  on the 43db  gain increase the
noise only 0.2db , you can't hear the increase of noise, I measured it with
QS1R SDR, basically the noise  is below the sensitivity of the receiver.

I can hear very well on 160m. not bragging but just for reference, 4W6, 9M0,
9M4,9M2, HS, DU, XU, and other very weak signals logged in 160 since 2006.
Doug worked 292 and I worked 275 on 160m from city lot. The new stuff works.
But as I said, it is very expensive.  Also the implementation  was not
possible without the information shared by K9YC, W8JI, and others how to
control common mode noise, grounding, shielding and best practices. The list
of MUST do things to implement the new stuff is very long 

The signal above noise is there at the RX array, to bring it at the station
and amplify only the signal coming from the RX array without adding common
mode noise is very touch. Here is a sort list of must do things

1- Detune all resonant antenna, feed line, rotor cable tower, any metal
thing over 90 ft. long .
2- Ground everything at  the tower, outside the shack, and in the shack
3- Choke every single cable that enter your radio system, including the
preamp. 100's of toroid's is quite common, and few toxoids does not get the
job done. 
4-All electronics'  must be shielded with steel boxes, aluminum does not cut
magnetic field  and does not help below -120dB noise floor. If possible run
all cables inside galvanized grounded water pipes or hot deep galvanized
conduit.
5- All cable inside the tower and grounded at the top and at the bottom
6- NO ground loop with the AC lines, isolation transformer and one point
ground for the system, your house wires is an effective way to drive noise
into the RX system.

A good RDF RX antenna does not fix the issues above. There is no allowance
here, all points above can deteriorate your RX signal to noise ratio. Using
Horizontal antenna does help a lot with interaction with TX antennas but do
not eliminate the common mode nose or ground loops problems.

Even a single flag is complicated because the feed line can introduce common
mode noise, and turn the flag into a loaded vertical. There is only two
solution, choke the line overkilling the common mode noise , or use
unshielded 100 ohms twisted pair cable. See T6LG results on his web page,
only after replacing the coax with twisted pair he was able to work 100's of
DX from a military base in YA on 160m. 

The results using the new RX system varies form excellent to a perfect
disaster depending on the points above.

73's N4IS 
JC



-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of David
Raymond
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 1:01 AM
To: Don Moman VE6JY; Topband@Contesting. Com
Subject: Re: Topband: 8 circle: DXE vs Hi-Z

My experience is similar to Don's outlined below.  Both gain and noise 
figure are important in very low noise environments.  In my own case, I have

a noise floor from my TX array in the high -120s or -130s assuming a quiet 
atmosphere.  A high RDF performance RX array often brings virtually no 
improvement.  In my case, since the RX arrays lack gain, they often don't 
have the horsepower (gain) to reach down and hear the super low level 
signals picked up by the TX array.  Switching from the TX antenna to the 
high RDF receive array not only fails to make the signal jump out of the 
noise (what noise?) but fails to hear the signal at all.  In these 
circumstance both gain and noise figure become very important factors.

73. . .Dave, W0FLS

- Original Message - 
From: Don Moman VE6JY ve6j...@gmail.com
To: Topband@Contesting. Com topband@contesting.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: 8 circle: DXE vs Hi-Z


 Well I disagree that gain isn't important.  Maybe you topbanders in the
 better areas of propagation can afford to throw away many db to get a
 better rdf, but that sure isn't the case up here in mid-northern VE6 land.
 I have numerous receive antennas including many beverages and Wellbrook
 loops (large area) and the Hi-Z 4-8PRO 8 element circle.  They all work
 more or less as expected on the easy stuff and show reasonable
 directivity but when I need help for the weaker dx, there just isn't any
 signal there to work

Re: Topband: Non-resonant receive antennas

[JC]

Milt,

Thanks to share with us your experience during XZ0A. When I started playing
with the HWF I was surprised to hear XU7ACY almost every day between 11:10z
and 11:20z SSW, during 2010 and 2011 , that happened 50% of the day from
October to April. 

This kind of propagation I called it TELP, Trans Equatorial Long Path. The
signals arrive from 40 degree elevation mostly horizontal polarized  20
minutes before SR  SSW and 20 minutes after SS SSE. With the HWF I was able
to work south Asia almost in  a daily base when my colleges  nearby only
could hear them few day with vertical polarized antennas.  

The reason why I do believe this propagation is around the equatorial line
is due the observation for this kind of propagation from the south
hemisphere. Analyzing several long path QSO's from PY's on 160m, there is a
common point , in all QSO's the signal was arriving near SS or SR coming
from NNW or NNE. 

In both cases, from north hemisphere or south hemisphere the signal is
really coming from the equatorial zone. K9LA demonstrated with a ray trace
analyze that the signal refract almost 120 degree at 40 degree angle, you
can check that on K9LA web page.

I think what I experienced with XU, DU and even JA long path SSW  is the
same propagation mechanism you mentioned during XZ0A. Very few
DX-expeditions uses that propagation mode and do not install any RX antenna
to receive SSW and/or  SSE. The XU7ACY extravagance QSO's was due the fact
Perter was active  every day and he installed a SSE /NNW reversible
beverage. DU7ET was using a high inverted V broadside N/S that receives
horizontal SSE. It is hard d to work DU from Florida until Robert installed
that antenna, we worked him Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr, and June this year on 160m,
we just missed him during May and I don't know why. By the way  Robert
worked WAS on 160 with that antenna from DU7ET.

73's N4IS
JC

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Milt --
N5IA
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 9:56 AM
To: James Rodenkirch; Top Band Contesting
Subject: Re: Topband: Non-resonant receive antennas

Jim,

If the arrival angle of the signals is high, then definitely the low dipole
will perform stupendously.

At XZ0A in 2000 we were having trouble the first few evenings receiving
signals at our sunset and for a couple of hours afterwards.  The Beverage RX
antennas were working very effectively after that time period, for the
entire night time.

Our conclusion was that the signals were arriving not only skewed (what
signals we were hearing were best on the VK/ZL Beverage and not the direct
path on the JA/NA Beverage) but also high arrival angle.

I installed a full sized dipole at 20' AGL, suspended by bamboo poles at the
center (centered on the helicopter landing zone as we suspected the Myanmar
Generals were not going to come visit us) and terminated in the jungle on
either side of the helo landing spot.

The dipole was oriented east/west, broadside to the N/S.

Immediately at the start of that day's Topband operation the NA signals came
right up out of the noise floor shortly before sunset.  Q5 copy signals on
the dipole were barely discernable while listening on the VK/ZL Beverage.

For 3 weeks we enjoyed this RX signal capability during the early evening
time period.

BUT, when it was time for the signal path to change it did so within a 5
minute period every night.  It was like someone was disconnecting one
antenna and connecting the other, so dramatic was the switch of RX path from
skewed, high arrival angle to direct path, much lower arrival angle over a
period of a few short minutes.  It was like clock work each evening.

The low dipole RX antenna allowed an XZ0A 160 M contact to be entered in
hundreds of NA log books which most likely would have never happened without
it.

My personal experience with low (10' AGL), full sized (1/4 WL) horizontal
loops at my home station is they work very well for high arrival angle
signals but are nearly deaf to low angle signals.

Good luck, and YMMV.  The low dipole is a specialty RX antenna.  And you can
never have too many RX antennas.

If anyone would like to see photos of the low dipole at XZ0A, send me a
direct request.

73 de Milt, N5IA



-Original Message-
From: James Rodenkirch
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 7:26 AM
To: Top Band Contesting
Subject: Topband: Non-resonant receive antennas

I noticed JC's comment below about a low dipole as a receiving antenna.

Did I interpret that correctly?  I've read of a Dipole on the ground as a
low noise receive antenna for 160 but.can a non resonant dipole
installed at low heights be better, as a receive antenna, than a vertical or
L antenna? How about a non-resonant dipole, say, two feet above ground, at a
length of 100 feet? Would you feed it with coax or figure out the Zo at 160
and use a suitably wound xfmr to match to 50 ohms???

Just athinkin' of ways to use available low horizontal space, albeit

Re: Topband: Non-resonant receive antennas

[JC]

 Since Rick correctly stated that RDF doesn't account


Jim

RDF is  everything !   The RX antenna system is the only way to improve
signal to noise ratio. All electronic device is not perfect and introduce
noise and deteriorate the signal to noise ratio, including your radio too

RDF is one way to measure directivity . 

You may do not need directivity to improve signal to noise ratio if you are
operating from a very  quiet location or a desert island on the pacific
without man made noise. 

If you deal with noise at your location you will select the antenna with
better directivity. That's adds another component how to cover all
directions.

Better RDF equals to better signal to noise ratio. 

That's is true for all bands, try to work 20 meter contest with a vertical
with 1 kW and compare with a 5 elements Yagi with 100W.  Your TX signal will
be the same however for sure you will prefer to receive on  the Yagi due its
directivity. You won't hear much on the vertical

Regards
JC
N4IS


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Re: Topband: Non-resonant receive antennas

[JC]

Jim

 What I am asking is if anyone has any, on-the-air experience and would
recommend one antenna system over the other for *most conditions*.  In other
words, will an antenna that has a less lower elevation pattern  generally
outperform an antenna that has a narrower beam width, but a higher elevation
angle? 

I understand your question now. Yes I have exactly that, a low elevation
narrow bean VWF, that works best at 20 degree or lower and a same narrow
bean but high elevation angle HWF best at 40 degree.  I keep a record of new
countries worked with one or another.

The high elevation angle outperform the low elevation angle 95%  of the
time, in special near  SS or SR. But the low elevation angle  was the only
antenna that can  hear South Asia direct path due north.  9M2AX , BU2AQ, 4W6
over or near the North Pole. 

Let me say the same thing in another way. For DX signals coming due North
330 to 30 degree , the vertical low angle outperform the high angle always.
It is based on the direction the signal is coming from and the interaction
with the dip magnetic field. Like 9M4SLL on Mar 13th 2013 was strong 340
degree only heard with VWF, on Mar 17th the signal was coming SSE and the
high angle was better, but copy with both antennas.

95% is a big number however the 5% could be a new country. Like 706T in the
first and second night only copy on the vertical low angle, after they move
to a new location the high angle RX antenna was better.

They are complementary to each other, hard to pick one.

73's 
JC
N4IS





-Original Message-
From: James Wolf [mailto:jbw...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 1:30 PM
To: 'JC'; 'Top Band Contesting'
Subject: RE: Topband: Non-resonant receive antennas

Thanks JC,

I agree that the RDF number is significant when evaluating a receive
antenna.  I agree that no one antenna system will work all of the time.
Consider we have two scenarios:  One RX antenna system that consists of two
parallel antennas (Broadside) , and the other is the same antenna configured
in-line, toward the desired signal (Delayed series fed).  

What I am asking is if anyone has any, on-the-air experience and would
recommend one antenna system over the other for *most conditions*.  In other
words, will an antenna that has a less lower elevation pattern  generally
outperform an antenna that has a narrower beam width, but a higher elevation
angle?

I think in this we need to consider the arrival angle of atmospheric noise
in a broadside array vs. atmospheric noise in a series fed array.Since
atmospheric noise propagates and the arrival angle will change, which
scenario would provide the general overall better performance?

Jim - KR9U

_

Jim

RDF is  everything !   The RX antenna system is the only way to improve
signal to noise ratio. All electronic device is not perfect and introduce
noise and deteriorate the signal to noise ratio, including your radio too

RDF is one way to measure directivity . 

You may do not need directivity to improve signal to noise ratio if you are
operating from a very  quiet location or a desert island on the pacific
without man made noise. 

If you deal with noise at your location you will select the antenna with
better directivity. That's adds another component how to cover all
directions.

Better RDF equals to better signal to noise ratio. 

That's is true for all bands, try to work 20 meter contest with a vertical
with 1 kW and compare with a 5 elements Yagi with 100W.  Your TX signal will
be the same however for sure you will prefer to receive on  the Yagi due its
directivity. You won't hear much on the vertical

Regards
JC
N4IS


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Re: Topband: Non-resonant receive antennas

[JC]

Hi John

What is the orientation of you low dipole? I assume similar to XZ0A it is
broadside N-S. In 2010 the SSW SSE propagation  that I am calling TELP
started with  solid copy for 2 weeks in October of XU7ACY around 11:15z and
at 2 weeks per month until March. 2011 was even better and Dec 29 and 30th
were the best days I ever experienced LP. January 2012 this propagation just
stopped from the best day to zero. Nada!!! During  2013 and 2014 LP on 160m
was very rare. 2014 we had some good days with HS0 and DU7 per month., not
even close to what happened 2010 , 2011. Also very few days opening near SS.


I think your observation  is the same as my , the dipole advantage became
non-existent 2013 - 2014 because there was no propagation SSE SSW or TELP. I
used to monitor a BC on 3915 from 9V1 to check for SSE SSW propagation but
the station went QRT last March and I don't have another signal to check
propagation from South Asia anymore so we depend on activity to know is the
band is open and activity has been very low.

I hope the SSW SSE propagation mode will be back next season, or maybe it
will start like it stopped with a huge opening. 

Regards
JCarlos
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of John
Kaufmann
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 8:43 PM
To: 'Top Band Contesting'
Subject: Re: Topband: Non-resonant receive antennas

A few years ago, I put up a low, non-resonant dipole, about 150 feet long
and 10 feet high for use as an auxiliary receiving antenna on 160.  My main
receiving antenna was and still is an array of short verticals.  What I
found at my W1 location after I installed the dipole is similar to what N5IA
described at XZ0A.  

If the band was open before my local sunrise (not always the case!), the
verticals would always outperform the dipole by a large amount.  However, as
soon as we hit sunrise, the dipole would suddenly start equaling and then
outperforming the verticals.  The transition would take place in a matter of
a few short minutes.  Past sunrise, DX signals would drop into the noise on
the verticals but would continue to hang in on the dipole.  The dipole would
sometimes extend the opening for me by 5 to 15 minutes, allowing me to make
some contacts (mainly JA and VK, if the band was open in those directions)
that would not have been possible with the vertical array.  Sometimes the DX
would be virtually inaudible on the verticals but Q5, although not strong,
on the dipole.

What is rather interesting, however, is that in the winter seasons of
2012-2013 and 2013-2014, this dipole advantage became non-existent.  The
dipole was never even close to the verticals, either before or after
sunrise.  It caused me to go outside a number of times to see if the dipole
had fallen down, but that was never the case.  Evidently the propagation
mechanisms at work around sunrise have changed from a few years ago, at
least at my QTH.  So far in the 2014-2015 season, the dipole has still not
provided any receiving advantage around sunrise.

I generally don't operate much around local sunset, but I have never seen
any dipole advantage at sunset.  

73, John W1FV

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Re: Topband: Non-resonant receive antennas

[JC]

Hi Dick

I never noticed any difference in receiving performance

That's exactly what we should expect using a resonant dipole, it interact
with any other antenna because the fiscal length is resonant, does matter if
the feed impedance, if it is only a straight wire resonant it is like a
director or director.  Distance also is something hard to manage on 160m.
120ft is only 1/4 or .25 wave , heavely interact with other resonant
elements.

A low dipole is like an inverted V, used to be called unidirectional, a high
dipole is different because the vertical field change intensity far from the
ground, however the feed line is hardtop choke and remove the vertical
common mode noise. Ladder line has huge advantage here , but not worth the
effort .

The low dipole and inverted V is unidirectional only if you disregard the
polarization, using EZENEC it is easy to demonstrate that, check Plot Type:
3D plot and select Desc Options Ver.Horiz.Total.  When you plot the  2D
Azimuth Slice or Elev Slice, the vertical field is the red line and the
horizontal a green line.

The inverted V or low dipole is horizontal only at broadside with a 8 patter
and some RDF, along the wire the Inverted V and low dipole is vertical
polarized. Bothe fields are high angle, it means low gain at low angles.  

Both antennas work like a very short beverage along the wire and does not
perform at all. Broadside there is a huge deep null on vertical signals, as
a result the manmade noise is also attenuated that direction, the horizontal
signal sky wave 20 to 40 degree has less attenuation, that situation there
is an  increase in the signal to noise ratio. The lobe is very wide and the
SNR is better at the center and at 45 degree each side the vertical field is
the same as the horizontal field, that's why these antennas are
unidirectional, with the two fields the same there is no improvement on SNR
after 45 degree from the center

The situation where these antennas outperform vertical arrays is because
they receive horizontal sky wave signals or high angles vertical or
horizontal signals.

Any receiver antenna without directivity is works like the attenuator in
your radio, just reduce the overall gain decrease the Noise figure of the RX
system but increase the IP3 reducing intermodulation. Almost the same thing
as reduce the RF gain and increase the audio gain does.

Receiver antennas to perform must have good RDF, and keep no other resonant
anything around, only one resonant wire will be part of the RX system and
change the patter, is the wire works like a director or reflector it would
increase the RDF , the odds are not that and most of the cases the
interaction makes the RX antenna patter useless.

This long answer is to validate your observation, resonant dipoles does not
provide any difference in receiver performance than your vertical or TX
antenna.


73's 
JC
N4IS



-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Karlquist
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 4:49 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Non-resonant receive antennas

On 2014-12-20 13:06, Richard Jaeger wrote:

 I guess I should try a low dipole and see what happens.
 
 Dick, K4IQJ ..
 

When talking about a low dipole, the question comes up as to why it must be
low to work.  Actually we don't know that it must be low to work.  Very few
of us are in a position to put up a high dipole, so the question is
basically moot.  However, in an attempt to gauge the influence of height, I
A/B'ed two full size dipoles at
30 and 60 foot heights over a period of 6 months.  The one not in use was
floating to avoid interaction with the active one.

I never noticed any difference in receiving performance.
What seems to happen is that the signals are a few dB higher on the 60 foot
wire, but the noise is commensurately higher.  30 feet was chosen for the
minimum so that the wires didn't look like beverages (and because I have a
bunch of 30 foot lengths of pipe).

Rick N6RK


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Re: Topband: Silver solder

[JC]

Hi Jorge

The most common problem of Passive Inter Modulation (PIM) that can flood
your radio with BC harmonica is Aluminum Oxide. The dielectric on that white
powder between aluminum and most every others metal became a diode with
moisture and a capacitor when dr. It can protected with all kind of
process, however tall of them last no longer than one year. With RF current
on 160m the joint with rectify and generating all kind of noise.

Electro voltage due different materials is an irreversible process. If you
want to have your ground plane for several years, do yourself a favor and
use  brass split bolt and cooper, you can find split bold that can be
buried.  High temperature also change the tempera of cooper and with all the
different metals you are set up to failure, it just a matter of time to
happen.

Regards
JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jorge
Diez - CX6VM
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2015 9:28 AM
To: Topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Silver solder

Thanks all for the help

Will be looking for a lead free solder to solder terminals to the radial
wires

According to use 3.5 mm aluminum wire, what do you think? Is a good option
or is better to use copper stranded cable?

73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W

-Mensaje original-
De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Gary Smith
Enviado el: miércoles, 31 de diciembre de 2014 02:49 a.m.
Para: Topband@contesting.com
Asunto: Re: Topband: Silver solder

I 2nd Merv's experience. My on the ground radials, on an oceanside salt
marsh, have held up as new for 4 years and I used the lead free plumbing
solder. The only issue is that solder requires a bit more heat then the
leaded solder. 

That's all I use outdoors any more.

734  HNY,

Gary
KA1J

 Here in salt air regular solder turns to white powder pretty fast, I 
 have been also using lead free solder,  I got a roll of plumbers 
 solder and a jar of resin flux.  works very well on #10 radials and
 4 inch wide copper strap etc.   Have left several joints exposed
 and there is no corrosion after 4 years.
 Works great so far.
 73 Merv K9FD/KH6
 
  2% is about what the lead-free electronic solders are (they are a
tin/silver/copper alloy and are mostly tin). Don't bother with the 30%. My
mechanical contractor uses this stuff to fix things he can't reach well
enough to braze. It's not generally used for anything normal.
 
  Coincidentally I was just out soldering more radials last night. I 
  use
18 gauge solid copper radial wire and a 1/2 copper pipe ring to tie them
together. My original 29 radials were all soldered with lead-free electronic
solder and they are all fine after 2-3 years. I didn't do anything to try to
protect the soldered connections -- everything is fully exposed and lying on
the ground.
 
  I added 31 more radials. I soldered some the same way, but I'm 
  trying
regular lead-free plumbing solder on the others. I am finding the plumbing
flux to work better than the rosin-core solder (it wets the joints more
evenly). I'm not sure what the exact alloy is for the plumbing solder.
 
  If you use the solder bars remember that you'll need separate flux 
  and
brushes to apply it. I like the water soluble flux -- it cleans up way
easier.
 
  -Bill KB8WYP
 
  Sent from my iPad
 
  On Dec 30, 2014, at 7:28 PM, Jorge Diez CX6VM 
  cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com
wrote:
 
  Hello
 
  I read about using silver to solder wire radials to terminals
 
  This week I decided to ask sellers about silver solder and they 
  offered me a 2% and 30% silver bars
 
  What we need for our use? Will be ok to use 2%? The difference in 
  price
is extremely high!
 
  Thanks,
  Jorge
  CX6VM/CW5W
 
  Enviado desde mi iPhone
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Re: Topband: EP6T and outside world

[JC]

160 stopped becoming the Gentleman's Band ever since mainstream
manufacturers started incoroporating a spot marked 160 on the front of
their rigs  linears...



100% disagree..  160m is a gentleman's  band by choice, all of us can make
that choice, we respect the visitors that come and go, we don't blame them
we educate them by example. 

We don't fight the pig because the pig will get you into the mud and he
loves it.
 
Gentleman's and gentlewoman's are here to stay!

 
Regards
JC
N4IS

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Re: Topband: Foreign stns using NA remotes for K1N

[JC]

AND and this is the' ÄND not the end yet but very close. 

.RHR posted DXCC ARRL now allowing you to be anywhere and contact count for
Award'

I'm afraid we will lose our privileges, the only thing that protected us and
make us unique to preserve  the bands we have privilege is the nom
-commercial nature of our service. Now that we allowed a commercial carrier
to use our station we become a commercial service.

Loosing this status we, our value and interest, will be judged as any other
commercial interest. 

It is not about remote technology or use of or for DXCC, it is the change
into a enterprise carrier service $/min or $/KW. 

ARRL is playing the full !

FCC  soon we realize we have been lying about the nature of our service and
rethink why OR NOT to give us air wave space.

I think this is the END coming soon!

Regards
JC
N4IS 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Larry
Burke
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 9:48 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Foreign stns using NA remotes for K1N

It's actually worse than that, Jim. One doesn't even need a K3/0. All you
need is a computer and an internet connection.

RHR's advertising is aimed at the simplicity of it all -- $99 and you are
on the air!, We will literally have you on the air within minutes of
signup!. Interestingly, the advertising even suggests that RHR isn't even
real ham radio -- For those who want a more 'authentic' radio experience,
you can connect with a K3/0/10/100-Mini!.

- Larry K5RK


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 8:41 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Foreign stns using NA remotes for K1N

Here's are a couple of quotes from the Remote Ham Radio Newsletter that
showed up in my mailbox today.

=   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =

As we write this newsletter the K1N team is on the air with a BIG signal.
We are happy to announce that many have already snagged them on 80M and 160M
with ease using the RHR network. The experienced fifteen man team is
planning a 14 day stay with around the clock operation, this will give
operators plenty of time to get this ATNO before they depart. 
If you need NAVASSA, we have the tools to help you work them, RHR has a
total of seventeen sites on the air with plenty of capacity to work this
super rare DXpedition.

EP6T Iran DXpedition worked on 9 bands from RHR sites including the top
band.

FT5ZM Amsterdam Island worked on 9 Bands from RHR sites including the top
band.

=   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =   =

No need to build a station, just buy a K3/0 and rent one. Want a 160 or 80M
QSO? No problem -- rent a superstation in one of the southern states to work
Navassa, South America, and entities in the South Atlantic, in Maine  for EU
and EP6T.  Rent one on the west coast to work Oceania and Asia. This comes
as close to a box-top operation as I've seen yet.  
Absolutely disgusting.

As I've posted here, I have NO problem with someone who is stuck with nasty
RF noise and antenna restrictions building a remote station near his home
QTH, or even using a single remote station close to his QTH, to chase awards
and contest. But this is not what Remote Ham Radio is SELLING.

Anyone who doesn't think this is cheating doesn't have a clue about the true
spirit of ham radio.  And I've been a ham long enough to remember what that
was.

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: Topband: Out-of-Turn Callers

[JC]

First of all, they haven't reported having their beverages installed.

The original plan submitted for approval was denied because the wires could 
impact the birds in the island, final and approved plan was based on vertical 
only for low bands and fiberglass protected wires  SteepIR. 

I am surprised they installed dipoles, they may get a last minute approval but 
wires were not allowed by USFWS. 
That’s why there are no beverages on K1N plan.

 http://www.navassadx.com/


Regards

JC
 
N4IS


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Re: Topband: That radar on 1915...

[JC]

Mike

Very interesting signal. I tuned on 3260 and the radar signal was very
strong and let's say unique, two bursts, one narrow band another wide band. 

It turns out that I am testing several preamplifiers and the signal on 3260
was Intermodulation coming from the preamplifier. I removed the preamplifier
and listening on the iC7800 the signal is not there.

This is a very serious problem all of us is facing nowadays and it is hard
to even figure I out what is happening. 

Two week ago  I noticed an intermodulation signal on 1890, I recognized the
AM broadcast program and I was able to identify the two station generating
the intermodulation,  I was expecting two local AM BC below 1.8 MHz. for my
surprise both signal was SW, 11,930 MHz and 13,820 MHz , same station Radio
Martã 1890 KHz apart.

With the solar activity peaking the propagation  is  exceptional good on
6MHz to 9 MHz  or 12 MHz and others SW bands. The two station from Radio
Martã was arriving here in Ft Lauderdale with -20 dBm with peaks -10 dBm,
any preamp with 10 db gain will delivery to the radio 0dBm, this is 1 mW
 most radios with IP3 bellow 40 dB  cannot handle that level of energy
without distortion and intermodulation.

Most RX antennas have low gain on 160m and requires a preamplifier, however
the same antennas can have some good gain on 12 MHz. With the propagation so
good on SW the broadcasting are causing  a lot of problems.

Most of us are not using tunable pre-selector ahead of the preamplifier as
we are used to have on old tubes receivers.

The Radio Martã is not near my house, it is in South Carolina and I'm in
South Florida.  Last Sunday I measured s9+60 dB  from a  BC signal without
preamplifier  on 7 315 . this is - 13dBm, with any preamplifier with more
than 10 dB we can send almos 1 mw to the receiver front end.

I try to check 7315 and there are several BC on that frequency form 5 to 250
KW...  

This situation with the propagation can last another year or two. Check if
your preamp is not overloading from SW boradcat signals. We need
preselectors or a low pass filter. 


See what I found on 7.315 MHz

7315ADVENTIST WORLD R.  03:00   03:30   1234567 Tigrinya250
125 KW  FIssoudun   46N57 001E59OFF_AIRMBR
7315Radio Tamazuj   04:00   04:29   1234567 Sudanese Arabic 250 KW  146
CVASanta Maria di Galeria   42N02 012E18OFF_AIRPNW/FPU
7315Radio Dabanga   04:29   05:57   1234567 Sudanese Arabic 250 KW  146
CVASanta Maria di Galeria   42N02 012E18SIGNAL_STRENGTH_2PNW/FPU
7315AIR Shillong06:56   09:31   1234567 Hindi   50  76
INDShillong 25N33 091E56OFF_AIR
7315CHINA RADIO INTERNATIONAL   16:00   16:57   1234567 Vietnamese
100 184 CHNKunming  25N10 102E49OFF_AIR
7315CHINA RADIO INTERNATIONAL   17:30   18:27   1234567 Chinese 500
300 CHNKunming  25N10 102E49OFF_AIR
7315CHINA RADIO INTERNATIONAL   22:00   22:57   1234567 Esperanto
500 294 Kashi-Saibagh 2022  39N21 075E45OFF_AIR
7315CNR 2   09:00   16:04   1234567 Chinese 150 ND  CHNXian 594
34N23 108E40OFF_AIR2
7315CNR 2   20:55   01:00   1234567 Chinese 150 ND  CHNXian 594
34N23 108E40OFF_AIR2=11660
7315TWR Africa  14:25   14:55   1234567 Portuguese  50  5
SWZManzini  26S19 031E36OFF_AIR
7315TWR Africa  14:55   15:10   1234567 Makhuwa 50  5
SWZManzini  26S19 031E36OFF_AIR
7315TWR Africa  15:10   15:55   1234567 Lomwe   50  5
SWZManzini  26S19 031E36OFF_AIR
7315VOICE OF AMERICA19:00   20:00   1234567 Kurdish 100 105
DBiblis 49N40 008E30OFF_AIRIBB/
7315WHRI CYPRESS00:00   00:30   12. English 250 173
USACypress Creek32N40 081W08OFF_AIR1 a14
7315WHRI CYPRESS00:30   01:00   .234567 English 250 173
USACypress Creek32N40 081W08OFF_AIR1 a14
7315WHRI Water of Life Ministries   00:30   01:00   1.. English 250
173 USACypress Creek32N40 081W08OFF_AIR1 a14
7315WHRI Water of Life Ministries   01:00   01:30   .2. English 250
173 USACypress Creek32N40 081W08OFF_AIR2 a14
7315WHRI CYPRESS01:00   02:00   12. English 250 173
USACypress Creek32N40 081W08OFF_AIR2 a14
7315WHRI CYPRESS02:00   03:00   1234567 Spanish, English250
152 USACypress Creek32N40 081W08OFF_AIR1 a14
7315WHRI CYPRESS05:30   09:00   1234567 Spanish, English250
152 USACypress Creek32N40 081W08OFF_AIR1 a14
7315WHRI CYPRESS10:00   12:00   .23456. Spanish, English250
173 USACypress Creek32N40 081W08OFF_AIR1 a14
7315WHRI Christian Worship Hour 11:00   12:00   1.. English 250
173 USACypress Creek32N40 081W08OFF_AIR1 a14
7315WHRI Water of Life Ministries   12:00   12:30   1.. English 250
173 USACypress Creek32N40 081W08

Re: Topband: XW8BM on 160m again

[JC]

Hi Eugene

I heard Toshi very well last year several days long path SSE/SSW around
11:30z. If you have a chance tell him to set some SSE/SSW RX antennas for
NA,

Regards
JC
N4IS


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Eugene
Popov /RA0FF/
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 8:33 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: XW8BM on 160m again

 Today XW8BM makes a call CQ-NA on 1812 (rx UP2 ) . It was after 22:00 UTC .
Earlier, I wrote it down signal in my archive .
http://www.qsl.net/ra0ff/160m/ears.html

Signal  could be heard much better than the last visit to Laos.
Unfortunately, there is not a better RX in XW .
But he said that the change of place and now he has the opportunity to place
long RX antennas .


73! de Eugene RA0FF
http://www.qsl.net/ra0ff/
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Re: Topband: K1N 5,399 q's on 160 M

[JC]

Hi Ray

I would say TX3A did balanced 160m activity and proved that it is possible
to achieve using dedicated RX antenna for the location of the DX expedition,
most DX expeditions does not pay attention or do not get well prepared for
RX on low bands. It does not mean dedication bit the results speak for it
self.

See TX3A balance between HF and 160m, less the 10% of the QSO's on 160m, but
36K QSO is very good for only tow operators.


TX3A was on the air from Chesterfield Reef from November 3 to Nov 30, 2009.
This was another simple low-band DXpedition by George (AA7JV) and Tomi
(HA7RY). During 28 days of operation we made a total of 36,148 QSO-s, of
which 3,425 were on 160 meters



Regards
JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ray Benny
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 1:53 PM
To: Milt -- N5IA
Cc: TopBand List
Subject: Re: Topband: K1N 5,399 q's on 160 M

Milt,

In this aspect all DXpeditions are equal.

Just one comment: Having a large person expedition can yield large
differences in 160m Q's compared to a two person expedition. On a two man
operation, the ops must decide what band to operate at night, 30, 40, 80 or
160m. They may want to make Q's on all these bands so must split their time
accordingly. A large M/M effort usually have ops on each band so the ops can
spend all their time on one band.

I realize the HA guys expeditions (AA7JV) were generally dedicated to 160m,
so this was not the case. But in other cases the number of ops does affect
the number of Q's on 160m.

Just my opinion. Other than that, very interesting information...

Ray,
N6VR

On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Milt -- N5IA n...@zia-connection.com
wrote:

 Good evening all.

 The K1N final numbers are in.

 I also received some further statistics from Bernd, DF3CB, which 
 slightly change the order of the standings.

 I received come comments about propagation differences.  The following 
 are, IMHO, the relevant factors.

 DX is DX no matter what band, but in particular on 160 Meters the 
 farther you are from the majority of the contacts, the more difficult 
 the possibility of large amounts of QSOs.
 Proximity to major ham population areas is the top contributor to the 
 leading Q counts.

 It does not matter, IMHO, if the DXpedition is 2-man, 25-man, or 
 anywhere in between, there is typically only one station and one 
 operator at a time on Topband.  They do not do both modes 
 simultaneously on Topband.  In this aspsect all DXpeditions are equal.

 Timing with the sunspot cycle is the next limiting factor.  The 
 reduction of the size and intensity of the polar ovals with low 
 sunspots greatly assists the long, opposite side of the planet paths.

 Those operations that take place at or near the equator are always 
 affected by QRN.

 IMHO the operations at 5A7A, K5D, K1N, R1MVW, HK0NA, TS7C,and TX5K did 
 an extremely good job and were able to take advantage of the proximity 
 to major population areas.  They had to have a good station and great 
 operators, and had to be on the ground long enough to take make the 
 large amount of Qs.

 But, and again IMHO, the operations at VP6DX, T32C, and ZL8X are 
 OUTSTANDING because they had to overcome the big one;  DISTANCE, for 
 nearly 100% of their Qs.

 Now to separate those three just a bit.

 ZL8X did 4,206 Qs with a crew of 14 operators and 18 days of operation.

 T32C did 4,985 Qs with a crew of 41 operators and 32 days of operation.

 VP6DX did 6,671 Qs with a crew of 13 operators and 17 days of operation.

 In all cases subtract at a minimum two days from the operation total 
 to apply to the 160 M operations.

 Enjoy, and look for the upcoming web site by Bernd, DF3CB, with all 
 the details and breakdowns of all the DXpeditions.

 73 de Milt, N5IA

 
 ===

 #1

 5A7A, Libya, near Tripoli, with the entire European continent less 
 than
 4,000 KM distant.

   CW  SSB  RTTYPSK   Total
 160 M   6344 928  283   987653
 
 ===

 #2

 K5D, Desecheo, Caribbean, with the entire USA and most of Canada less 
 than
 5,600 KM distant.

   SSB  CWRTTY Total
160 M   19835213 0 7196
 
 ===

 #3

 VP6DX, Ducie Atoll, from the middle of the south Pacific in the 
 southern hemisphere summer.  There was strong QRN and somewhat shorter 
 nights (operating periods on Topband).

 ZL = 5,400+ KM;  VK = 8,000 to 11,700 KM;  KH6 = 5,800+ KM; JA = 
 11,900+ KM; west coast of South America = 5,000+ KM; Rio de Janeiro = 
 8,100 KM; San Diego, USA = 6,400 KM; NYC, USA = 8,900 KM; and in EU -- 
 Madrid = 14,200 KM; London = 14,400 KM;  Berlin = 15,200 KM;  Rome = 
 15,690 KM; Moscow = 16,100 KM

Re: Topband: K1N 5000q's on 160

[JC]

I think propagation should be taken in consideration on 160, nowadays has
been hard to work Europe form Florida, I don't remember propagation so
difficult like the one we are experiencing during this second peak if the
solar cycle.

K1N results on 160 m are just fantastic.

Regards
JC
N4IS



-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Milt --
N5IA
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2015 11:45 PM
To: TopBand List
Subject: Topband: K1N 5000q's on 160

With a bit of time on my hands, and using some information and links sent to
me by persons responding to my post earlier today, I have compiled the
following list of All Time Topband DXpedition leaders for total 160 Meter
Qs.

The following list of 7 DXpeditions are head and shoulders above the rest of
the pack, so far as I have been able to discover in the records.

Most other major DXpedtions list total Topband Qs in the 2,500 to 3,500
range.  Very interesting.

Enjoy, and if anyone has further information, please forward it to me. 
Thanks, and have a great, leisurely weekend now that you don't have to
pursue K1N.

73 de Milt, N5IA


===

#1

5A7A, Libya, near Tripoli, with the entire European continent less than
4,000 KM distant.

   CW  SSB  RTTYPSK   Total
160 M   6344 928  283   987653

===

#2

K5D, Desecheo, Caribbean, with the entire USA and most of Canada less than
5,600 KM distant.

   SSB  CWRTTY Total
160 M   19835213 0 7196

===

#3

VP6DX, Ducie Atoll, from the middle of the south Pacific in the southern
hemisphere summer.
There was strong QRN and somewhat shorter nights (operating periods on
Topband).

ZL = 5,400+ KM;  VK = 8,000 to 11,700 KM;  KH6 = 5,800+ KM;  JA = 11,900+
KM; west coast of South America = 5,000+ KM;  Rio de Janeiro = 8,100 KM; San
Diego, USA = 6,400 KM;  NYC, USA = 8,900 KM; and in EU -- Madrid = 14,200
KM;  London = 14,400 KM;  Berlin = 15,200 KM; Rome = 15,690 KM;  Moscow =
16,100 KM;  Athens = 16,600 KM.

CWSSBRTTY Total
160 M 5097 1574  06671

===

#4

K1N, Navassa, Carribean, with the entire USA and most of Canada less than
5,600 KM distant.

CWSSB   RTTYTotal
160 M5399005399plus what is worked the 
last night, 15 Feb 15.

==

#5

T32C, Kiritimati Island, from near the center of the Pacific Ocean, 200 KM
north of the Equator.

ZL = 5,100+ KM;  VK = 6,200 to 10,000 KM;  KH6 = 1,900+ KM;  JA = 7,400+ KM;
west coast of South America = 8,500+ KM;  Rio de Janeiro = 12,600 KM; San
Diego, USA = 5,400 KM;  NYC, USA = 9,300 KM; and in EU -- Madrid = 14,600
KM;  London = 13,700 KM;  Berlin = 13,900 KM; Rome = 15,050 KM;  Moscow =
13,460 KM;  Athens = 15,580 KM.

  SSBCWPSKRTTYPSK63FTotal
160 M   91735734   449 414984

==

#6

HK0NA, Malpelo, off SW coast of Central America, with the entire USA and
most of Canada less than 7,000 KM distant.

   SSBCWRTTY Total
160 M8024138 04940

==

#7

TX5K, Clipperton Island, off SW coast of Mexico, with the entire USA and
most of Canada less than 6,000 KM distant.

   SSB CWRTTY   Total
160 M4233662  0  4085





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Re: Topband: CQWW160 Remote receiver rule

[JC]

It will be soon enough that we will be having the conversation about not
only remote operation but robotic QSO making software.  

Is is really and truly a RADIO CONTEST if you cannot possibly make a radio
QSO without using the Internet?  I know some people who I actually think
believe what we are doing in these reflectors is radio...  (I already know
all the justifications comparing the WWW communications system to a six foot
headphone cable located at your own station.). What do you think?

Enjoy it while you can.

Stan


You are right!. The sadness is causing the emotion Tom mentioned, however
the real issue is the trade we are facing with RHR, the trade between value
and cost!

Work hard to setup a remote station and work a rare DX has a lot of value,
You can be proud of it and the technology is always welcome and part of our
DNA.

What is not acceptable is to transform HAM Radio  into a business and charge
by the minute like ATT. Verizon or any other carrier that provide
communication per dollar amount.

That is not Ham Radio, it is a trade from VALUE to COST. 

For all the guys using RHR the pride is measured in dollar per minute, it
means the cost of a QSO matters.  Next step would be  to set up a call
center in India to provide you with all services at once. Select the DX you
what you and  pay at the end.

All about money and commercial interest to transform what is bounding un
together . the value and proud to make it. 

Why bother is it is getting  to QSL / QSL cost for minute? Share what ? you
r wallet?

Nobody is helping Ham with restriction to get into de air. It just about
money!

When you look at your wall you can see the value of your work. Does not
matter what it cost. Don't let it change!

My two cents

JC
N4IS


 


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Re: Topband: K levels and skew path on 160

[JC]

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
donov...@starpower.net
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 3:28 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Cc: n...@comcast.net

Because the southern magnetic pole is just off the coast of Antarctica and
directly south of Australia, the SSW long path crosses through the auroral
belt and this long path is significantly affected by geomagnetic activity. 

From 2300-2330Z (the most likely times for southeast Asia long path in
eastern USA evening) the grey line crosses Uruguay, so the long path to
southeast Asia is likely to be SSE or possibly SE. Because the southern
magnetic pole is on the opposite side of Antarctica, the SSE long path is
much less affected by geomagnetic conditions than the 1145-1300Z SSW long
path. 


Frank

Your observations match my observations since 2009 when I started to work
with Horizontal polarized receiver antenna for 80/160. 2010 and 2011 the
SSE/SSW path was open most of the days. Peter (XU7ACY) was very active and I
heard  him from October to March over 60 days out of 180 days on 160m, and
every single day on 80m at the same operating time you mentioned.

I did try to correlate the openings with K and AL and it is not directly
related. The only index for magnetic storm that was correlated was Dst.  Dst
index is an index of magnetic activity derived from a network of
near-equatorial geomagnetic observatories that measures the intensity of the
globally symmetrical equatorial electrojet (the ring current).
I started to follow Dst because Alan Melia G3NYK long wave propagation page.
Alan noticed the LF  ( 500KHz) propagation could be good after few days of
Dst above zero, it means low activity of magnetic storm.

K, AL and Dst and all related with solar wind speed, predictions are
available from Colorado and Kyoto.

http://lasp.colorado.edu/space_weather/dsttemerin/dsttemerin.html


http://wdc.kugi.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dst_realtime/presentmonth/index.html

The Dst can be useful when is positive for 5 or more days, indicating good
condition possibility. Activity is more important than possibility, without
activity propagation does not matter. So when a flare or CME hit the
magnetic ring, two things happen, first there is a very good improvement on
the propagation for few hours followed by a depression and degradation of
propagation, that depression last for several days and a good recovery can
take over a week. After the impact the attenuation is high above normal and
the impact on 160m is significate, but not much on 80m.

After a good success with HWF in Florida, some friends in South America, and
Brazil started to use the HWF for long path. I get very serious trying to
understand the physics behind 50% openings on LP and I collect data from
previous QSO on 80 and 160m when directive RX antenna systems was used. 

For my surprise all opening on the South Hemisphere long path were actually
NNW NNE. That result indicate that the actual signal SSE SSW  get refracted
at the equator region and travel inside the darkness. 

Robert DU7ET was a good example of this kind of propagation long path , we
had QSO's every month from Jan to July 2013. For me all openings were SSW
but from my friends on Brazil the path was NNW. 

Based on the observations my conclusion (still a work in progress) is that
the signal does not reach the south pole auroral belt. It's run along the
equator, That s why I am calling this propagation mode TELP , Trans
Equatorial Long Path.

Carl K9LA did a nice paper with the ray traces from my location to XU7 , and
at 40 degree there is a refraction  bending SSW signal to W. It can explain
the same bending for reflated signals NNW to W from Brazil.

Dst also can show how bad the propagation was Dec 2014 to middle Jan 2015.
Ove several years the Dst  was in between 0 and -20 but during the last two
month Dst was between -20 and -40 with very deeps near -100.

I would say that TELP I open on 80m almost every day, we just don't have
much activity to understand it better.

Regards
JC
N4IS




- Original Message -

From: Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com
To: Steven R Daniel, D.D.S. n...@comcast.net, topband@contesting.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 7:21:00 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: K levels and skew path on 160 

I was rereading the article by Cary Oler and Ted Cohen (N4XX), 
published in  1998, which provided a good primer for understanding, as 
much as we can,  propagation on Topband. In one section the impact of a 
high K index on the  auroral oval, and its subsequent impact on signals 
passing through the  oval,  was discussed. My question is does the K 
index, especially at higher  levels,  impact the SW or SSW skew path 
many of us were trying to use this morning  to  work Ken, XW4ZW? Any 
information or observations will be appreciated.
 Best,

Steve, 

From my location now, and when I was in Ohio, it was quite normal for any
signal passing near or through the north magnetic pole to never make

Re: Topband: Looking for 160m narrow beam RX advice - an interesting combination of ideas

[JC]

An array of loops is two loops for two directions.

Hi guys

The simple solution that is working very well since 2009 is the HWF. Why not
two  horizontal loaded loops end-fire.   Two identical horizontal loops see
the ground wave signal at the same way  Va=Vb  and because the 180 degree
out of phase  we have Va-Vb=0 .  A loaded loop has a cardioid patter and two
in phase , like the horizontal WF , have over 90 dB attenuation on vertical
polarized signals at the front lobe and at same time has 11.5 to 1332 dB
directivity for horizontal signals 

The main lobe is near 40 degree and  + - 20 degree for 3db, it means  deep
null from 90 degree plane, not only  from the side , also with a 5 to 8
degree difference in phase you can enjoy 20 to 40 F.B.

So the HWF can null the noise in all direction coming from ground wave,
simple as that. You can turn the HWF and aim to the DX with good directivity
like a 3  elements full size beam from 160, 80, 40 and 30m in one single
feed line.

The HWF needs to be at least 30 Ft. high for 80m and 60 Ft high for good
performance on 160m. Even on 40m and 30m the HWF offer the same noiseless
performance. 

I called noiseless because with 90 dB attenuation on ground wave, mainly man
made noise, the noise level during the day without propagation noise or sky
wave is below the noise floor of the receiver.

The challenger is to avoid any common mode noise pickup from the feed line,
the feed line is a vertical antenna and it will deteriorate the vertical
attenuation if you don't choke it, not that shield is our enemy for that.
Quad shield just increase the common mode noise problems.

I recorded some signals comparing a good RDF vertical HF, is my main antenna
for almost 10 years, I built on in 2006. The  results speak for itself, it
is a booring 10 minutes video and at the end  somebody started a huge
intentional QRM on top of the DX, unbelievable bad in all aspects. It is my
Drop box

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xqrtj86jout29ph/MVI_0075.MP4?dl=0

Another solution not so efficient because does not have directivity, but
works very well is the old K6STI loop 
http://www.angelfire.com/md/k3ky/page45.html

Same issue , you need to use unshielded twisted pair to feed the loop, no
shield !!! you don't what that on the feed line. 


73's
N4IS





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Re: Topband: Looking for 160m narrow beam RX advice - an interesting combination of ideas

[JC]

Hi Guys


I uploaded the video on YouTube on this link,  DropBox is not working.

http://youtu.be/dNBekvzlxgM




Hi guys

The simple solution that is working very well since 2009 is the HWF. Why not
two  horizontal loaded loops end-fire.   Two identical horizontal loops see
the ground wave signal at the same way  Va=Vb  and because the 180 degree
out of phase  we have Va-Vb=0 .  A loaded loop has a cardioid patter and two
in phase , like the horizontal WF , have over 90 dB attenuation on vertical
polarized signals at the front lobe and at same time has 11.5 to 1332 dB
directivity for horizontal signals 

The main lobe is near 40 degree and  + - 20 degree for 3db, it means  deep
null from 90 degree plane, not only  from the side , also with a 5 to 8
degree difference in phase you can enjoy 20 to 40 F.B.

So the HWF can null the noise in all direction coming from ground wave,
simple as that. You can turn the HWF and aim to the DX with good directivity
like a 3  elements full size beam from 160, 80, 40 and 30m in one single
feed line.

The HWF needs to be at least 30 Ft. high for 80m and 60 Ft high for good
performance on 160m. Even on 40m and 30m the HWF offer the same noiseless
performance. 

I called noiseless because with 90 dB attenuation on ground wave, mainly man
made noise, the noise level during the day without propagation noise or sky
wave is below the noise floor of the receiver.

The challenger is to avoid any common mode noise pickup from the feed line,
the feed line is a vertical antenna and it will deteriorate the vertical
attenuation if you don't choke it, not that shield is our enemy for that.
Quad shield just increase the common mode noise problems.

I recorded some signals comparing a good RDF vertical HF, is my main antenna
for almost 10 years, I built on in 2006. The  results speak for itself, it
is a booring 10 minutes video and at the end  somebody started a huge
intentional QRM on top of the DX, unbelievable bad in all aspects. It is my
Drop box

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xqrtj86jout29ph/MVI_0075.MP4?dl=0

Another solution not so efficient because does not have directivity, but
works very well is the old K6STI loop 
http://www.angelfire.com/md/k3ky/page45.html

Same issue , you need to use unshielded twisted pair to feed the loop, no
shield !!! you don't what that on the feed line. 


73's
N4IS





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Re: Topband: Looking for 160m narrow beam RX advice - an interesting combination of ideas

[JC]

 I am going to try to get a horizontal loop aimed at 70 degrees up  

Hi Rick

It is not recommended to tilt  and elevate the loop. There is two reasons it
improve the signal to noise ratio, First is the attenuation of the vertical
component at the same direction you are receiving the DX signal, Second is
the directivity for horizontal  signal. Her the first one is the most
important to kill local ground noise. I used to tune the HWF for best RDF,
but I've seen better results tuning it for max attenuation of the vertical
field. Since I did that I rarely use my vertical WF, including for signals
coming due north.
 
Horizontal signals get very attenuated near the ground, that's why you
should install the loops or the loop as high you can. Different from dipoles
the takeoff angle is the same for any height above ground. 

Long path propagation SSE SSW is the most interesting observation of
polarization coming horizontal polarized. Since I install the first HWF back
in 2009 I started to copy long path signals from South Asia in a daily base
during Fall and Winter. 6 month season. On 160m, the activity is a key
factor, like I heard Peter from HS0ZAI the only day he was active on 160m, I
can’t say the propagation is not open if there is no activity.  There have
been several reports of long path propagation this year on 160m , on 80 m is
it pretty common.

The HWF because the difference in polarization , the interaction with TX
antenna is 25 to 27  dB reduced. But not the same for low dipoles, elevated
radials or any other resonant wire or structure at the same band,, Remember
the HWF has the same performance  on 160 . 80. 40 and some good usability on
30m, However the gain is different, like 160m -50 dB,  80m -30 dB  , 40m -10
dB e almost some gain on 30m, these figures depend on the size of the HWF.
This also means the same preamp is not recommended for all bands, it needs
to be tuned and what I use is preamp tuned per band with the adequate gain.
Just few days ago I measure signal from two local broadcast in South
Caroline, Radio Martã aimed for Cuba, on 11.930 MHz  signal at the receiver
-13dBm (s9+60) and 13.820 MHz, -20 dBm , the preamp can/may  handle it but
these numbers can overload any receiver if you don't adjust the gain. Also
the IM or PIM became a problem ,  the product of 1890 can be very strong.  

Regards
JC
N4IS

 

-Original Message-
From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist [mailto:rich...@karlquist.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2015 2:36 PM
To: JC; 'topband'
Subject: Re: Topband: Looking for 160m narrow beam RX advice - an
interesting combination of ideas

On 1/8/2015 5:36 AM, JC wrote:

 An array of loops is two loops for two directions.

 Hi guys

 The simple solution that is working very well since 2009 is the HWF. Why
not
 two  horizontal loaded loops end-fire.   Two identical horizontal loops
see
 the ground wave signal at the same way  Va=Vb  and because the 180 
 degree

I have been modeling horizontal loops recently.  The idea is to reject
vertically polarized ground wave noise.  As far as I can tell, a horizontal
loop rejects vertically polarized noise from any direction.
As opposed to a dipole that receives vertically polarized signals from the
ends.  You can make the loop just about any size or shape and terminate the
side opposite the feed with a resistor of around 1000 ohms to get a cardioid
pattern.  There is a resonance when the perimeter of the loop is a half wave
long, so you need to stay somewhat below this length, which would be
something like 260 feet on 160 meters.
That's a huge loop.  The higher the loop and the bigger the loop, the more
signal you get (that is gross signal, not SNR).  You need to overcome your
preamp noise.

As JC says, these loops can be the building blocks of an array.

I am going to try to get a horizontal loop aimed at 70 degrees up for the
upcoming CQWW contests as a proof of concept.  In the recent SP, I tried a
horizontal dipole, but it was no better than the transmit vertical.  In the
past, dipoles have been good receiving antennas.  I am thinking it is a
matter of what direction the dominant noise is coming from as to whether
they work.  The loop doesn't have that issue.

Rick N6RK

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Topband: BROKEN DIPOLE

[JC]

Hi Alfeo



On top band we use a inverted L and on 80m a vertical with a parasite
reflector.We have the feeling that ous signal is strong enough 

I appreciate your effort on 160m, actually I am following you on you ban DX
expeditions for few years and one thing I noticed is the lack of signal on
160m. Let me do a constructive comment about this kind of TX antenna.

I don't know where this thing started. A low inverted V is a very poor TX
antenna, but the current is at the maximum high above ground, now if one leg
get broken and the fed line is heavy and also drops to the ground, you got a
broken antenna and someone called inverted L. IT IS A BROQUEN DIPOLE, IT
DOES NOT WORK. 

To be an inverted L' it needs a ground plane or a connection with the
ground, Elevated radial starts with 4 resonant radials , 3 does not work, 2
does not work and 1 does not work at all.

I've seen several DX expedition wasting a lot of time on TOP BAND calling a
broken dipole as inverted L. It needs a ground plane.

As an example, I remember two DX expedition on the same area South Africa
that had very poor performance on 160m using this broken dipole, and at the
same  time DJ7RJ was on 160m from a nearby country and his signal was always
good and easy to copy. Maybe  Willi have the secret TX antenna that's work.


73.s 
JC
N4IS


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Re: Topband: 9Q0HQ

[JC]

The flag, EWW, K9AY and others loaded loop antenna are indeed two
non-resonant phased vertical phased 180 degree resulting in a cardioid
pattern that provide directivity and a good F/B. When you have another
resonant element nearby the interaction changes the pattern,  depending on
the new resonant element acting as a director or a reflector the new pattern
can be very distorted, and it could be any shape. Any loaded loop RX antenna
near a resonant antenna has useless pattern and most of the time the signal
to noise ratio is the same on the flag or on the resonant antenna. 
 
Detuning fiscally the resonant antenna is a must to improve signal to noise
ratio. No free beef here.

Another factor is the feed line of the flag, Coax does not work well because
the common mode current outside the braid works like a vertical if no choked
properly, twisted pair unshielded is the only way to avoid use of chokes.

Horizontal flag does help but needs to be high above ground. 

Regards
JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Guido
Tedeschi
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 11:37 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: 9Q0HQ

John,
  the Diamond they used is quite similar to the Pemnant...
73 de Guido, ik2bcp

Il giorno 19/mar/2015, alle ore 15:39, j...@kk9a.com j...@kk9a.com ha
scritto:

 I am not sure what supplies that you have available in the Republic of 
 Congo. A Pennant should fit in your operating area. It is pretty easy 
 to build and it is not ground dependent.
 
 John KK9A
 
 
 To:topband@contesting.com
 Subject:Topband: 9Q0HQ
 From:alfeo...@tin.it alfeo...@tin.it
 Reply-to:alfeo...@tin.it alfeo...@tin.it
 
 
 Dear friends, we are doing our best effort on the low bands. Being at 
 the end of the rain season, there is a storm almost every day in the 
 afternoon.The soil here is very dark and moist, often we need to tune 
 the high band antennas as the resonance shifts according to water 
 content.On low bands the noise from static is high, 7 - 9 on 80 and 
 160. It is a little better when we are close to the sunrise.On top 
 band we use a inverted L and on 80m a vertical with a parasite 
 reflector.We have the feeling that ous signal is strong enough but the 
 major problem is our capability to cautch the signals out of the 
 noise. We used a DHDL for few days, no big help. Yesterday we change 
 with a Diamond, no better result. We still use the verticals on 
 receiving as it grants the better result in spite of the noise.I am 
 afraid that a beverage would not help us due to the soil propriety. 
 Also, there is no enough room to lay a 200m beverage.We are rather 
 limitaded in resources (wires, cables) as it  is no easy and fast to 
 find the stuff locally.I kindly ask for your suggestion to improve our 
 receiving capability.
 Best 73
 (sorry for my bad English!)
 Alfeo I1HJT 9Q0HQ crew
 
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Re: Topband: *****SPAM***** Re: Brave New World

[JC]

Eddy, Ham Radio is dead, extinct.  It has been replaced with Internet
Radio.


I'm sorry for you!. I'm alive, we are alive. Ham Radio is more exciting and
alive than ever. 700.000 licensed in US only.

Don't look in the mirror, just do what works for you. Ham Radio is an option
and a hobby based on each one individual interest.

I just worked my country # 278 o 160m since 2006, my first DXCC on 160 from
Brazil started in 1972 and worked my #100 in 1992. Do I trade the first 20
years to work 100 with the last 9 that I worked #278. Definitively not.

What I don't like about HRH is the commercial aspect of it, U$ /min air
time. The legality of it depends on the money behind each side. We can lose
our privileges with this precedent. It depends in how much money will in the
table. Best strategy is do not play it,  if you don't want to live with the
doubt to lose it.

Regards
JC
N4IS


 

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Re: Topband: verticals by the sea

[JC]

Mike

An Inverted V does have the same lobe horizontal and vertical but they are
90 degree apart, If you run EZENEC and change description option to Ver.
Hor. and Total field, you will see that at 0 degree Horizontal is maximum
and Vertical is zero, at 45 degree both fields are the same, and at 90
degree Horizontal is zero and Vertical is max. However close to good ground
the horizontal signals is attenuated so in practice the inverted V near the
see will radiate only vertical in the direction of the wire.

Better solution is a vertical with the radial inside the salt water., just
toss few feet of wire inside the water, more is always better, the
electrical contact with the salt water is the key point here. The wire will
break , keep adding some more every day. You can check the TX3A antenna
document from AA7JV,  it has an elegant using a T vertical vertical.

http://www.tx3a.com/equipment.html


73's
JC
N4IS
 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Smith VE9AA
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 11:18 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: verticals by the sea

Is there any advantage to using an inverted VEE by the sea?  Didn't I read
inverted VEEs had a lot of vertical polarization?

Reason I ask is I plan to do the IOTA contest on an Island in NB or NS and
have not yet decided on an antenna.

 

Thanks, 

Mike VE9AA

 

 

Mike, Coreen  Corey

Keswick Ridge, NB

 

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Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea

[JC]

Just two years  DU7ET worked WAS on 160m using an inverted V. Robert had a
good signal long path almost every day for six months. By the way , he told
me he will be active from DU7ET again starting is October.

73
JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
donov...@starpower.net
Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 1:19 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea

Hi Herb, 


Stew's two element inverted-V beam was 265 feet above sea level, a
spectacular location. The water tower is on the edge of a steep drop to the
ocean. 


73
Frank
W3LPL 


- Original Message -

From: Herbert Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 4:24:19 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Fw: verticals by the sea 

Didn't Stew Perry, W1BB have basically and inverted Vee with open wire
feeders at his famous Lighthouse QTH at Winthrop, MA? 

On 4/3/2015 12:48 PM, k1fz wrote: 
 
 
 
 Years ago there was someone using an inverted V and doing quite well 
 with DX. It was later found that he had a long vertical open wire feed 
 line that was thought to be acting as vertical antenna.
 
 73
 Bruce-K1FZ
 
 
 - Original Message - From: Mike Smith VE9AA 
 ve...@nbnet.nb.ca
 To: topband@contesting.com
 Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 10:17 AM
 Subject: Re: Topband: verticals by the sea
 
 
 Is there any advantage to using an inverted VEE by the sea? Didn't I 
 read inverted VEEs had a lot of vertical polarization?
 
 Reason I ask is I plan to do the IOTA contest on an Island in NB or 
 NS and have not yet decided on an antenna.
 
 
 
 Thanks,
 
 Mike VE9AA
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Re: Topband: [Bulk] Best wire antenna for roof top location

[JC]

Even with a 400 ft high building, a horizontal antenna a fraction of wave
over the roof can be very disappointing.

Tom is 100% right, one of the best rood top signal on top band is from
9M2AX. Ross tested several antennas and the only one that worked well was
the inverted L. He has a tall fiberglass mast on top a water mast to keep
the vertical part of the L high above the roof top. Ross also used a sloper
for some time.

Ross can provide more details of his excellent top band antenna.

Best combination is a horizontal loaded  loop like a flag for RX or a Waller
Flag and the vertical inverted L for TX.

Regards
JC

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Re: Topband: Fwd: Re: [Bulk] alternative feedpoint capacitor

[JC]

I am using vacuum capacitor, you can find them on e-bay around $200. But I
have used small NPO capacitor in parallel for several years. With the right
material that can handle current on 1.8 MHz. Most ceramic capacitors, like
doorknobs can handle 3 RF Amperes on 3.5 MHz but only 1A on 1.8MHz.

The capacitor I used for several years with no failure is this 

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/cera-mite-564cc0gaa302el620j-capacitor-cera
mic-62pf-3-000v

62pf NPO 3KV, for 1200 PF you need 19 units in parallel, very important the
capacitor cannot touch each other, keep them at least 2 mm apart, or 80 mils
separation between them.  You can find them on DigiKey as well or other
vendors, at Eletronicsurplus  they cost U$ 1/each.

NPO is a must otherwise they will change capacitance with the temperature,
some 500pF capacitor can really change the tuning a lot. Three 170pf NPO in
parallel does a much better job them one 500ps that is not NPO.

My two cents

N4IS
JC

, 

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Re: Topband: Best wire antenna for roof top location.

[JC]

 All of us have tried separate small loop receive antennas, both passive
and active, with only marginal improvements. Noise cancelling antennas don't
work due to the myriad of noise sources in built-up areas. Short Beverages
are a waste of time as well.
Bottom line is it is hardly worth bothering. After you have worked the few
big guns in EU and the JAs, Aussies  and Russians on top band there is a
quantum leap to the rest of the world, all due to noise.
John 9V1VV 

Hi John 

I understand how  frustrating it is when you need to hear on the transmit
antenna. I started listening top-band back in 1970, I was able to work my
first DX in 1972 and it took me 20 years to work 100 countries. After moving
to a quiet location in 1990, I worked 9V1XQ in 1994 with 579 and using a
vertical with almost no radials, my back yard was 20 x 10 m...

The good news is that there is a solution for rooftop location. I have been
working on developing the  Horizontal  Waller Flag since 2009 and there are
two HWF in downtown Sao Paulo, Brazil. One at PY2XB and another at PY2AAZ. 

Fabio's location is PY2AAZ-15  - 23°35.12' S 46°40.16' W - GG66PJ99QM

Fred,  PY2XB, has several pictures on QRZ.com.

The Horizontal WF has two identical horizontal flags cancelling each other,
the rejection of manmade noise is above 40 db at the direction of maximum
gain. The antenna directive gain is excellent, 11,5 db RDF. But the power
gain is very low -55 db. There is over 20 db increase in SNR. 

The antenna already optimized and the amplifiers still have some option
under test, the final system will only be available next year. I am running
very late on my final tests. This season there is almost no signal to use,
it has been hard to hear Europe on 160m. Very poor conditions. 

Next year you can expect few articles on QST for those who want to build
them, if you google HWF N4IS or NX4D (http://nx4d10.wix.com/waller-flag)
you can find presentations and pdfs about the project. I will offer a
commercial optimized version next year.  Some DX expeditions will use the
HWF from roof top as well. 

With the HWF the  160, 80, 40 and 30m bands are quiet as 20m, it is a
difference experience.

Regards
JC





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Re: Topband: ADC Overload from MW transmitters

[JC]

<< What do we do with them?>>

We do what we are!  Gentlemen !giving always a good example.

 Even almost 40 year later worth reading W1BB.

W1BB>>
GENTLEMENT BAND!!??? ---Shall stress the importance of keeping this UNIQUE
band "The GENTLEMEN! Band", as its reputation has been for so many years,
just that ?? We're having sum "growing pains" with big influx of New-Comers,
who are not yet thoroughly steeped, (and maybe never will be), in the
tradition of the band, or cognizant of the advantages to themselves, and to
ALL, to keep it so!! SEEMS that each one of us who enjoys these unique
advantages, and the thrill of 160, should want to, individually, help to
keep it this way -- by contributing all the "input" in the direction we are
in - by welcoming, educating, befriending, exhibiting a good example, and
Wining the same support from these new-Comers. Meanwhile being sure of our
own motives, and the example we give is correct and right - to acknowledge
our own mistakes, and not make them twice. As "Gentlemen" of 160, shouldn't
we try to MINIMIZE the bickering between CW/PHONE, and to find ways to
cooperate with each other in eliminating friction and QRM??? By meticulously
RESPECTING the "Gentlemen's Agreement" that 1800-10 would be CW
--1810-25/SSB --1825-30 the "DX Window" 1830-1850/SSB and CW. Seems like
a really Gud set-up, especially for phone., since all other bands do not
have an exclusive phone segment!!! BUT we must remember that NO-ONE has any
"LEGAL" requirement to respect these Fys - this "Gents" partitioning,
because the "status" of the band --- it is really NOT an Amateur Band at
all!!! It is a Govt/Services (USCG/LORAN) band, wherein we Amateurs have the
PRIVILEGE only of operating there, IF we cause no QRM to the Govt Services.
For this reason it cannot be, and is not legally partitioned into PHONE/CW
segments. SO that, our only hope of "order" is in this so called
"Gentlemen's Agreement SOOOooo.! one MUST NOT tell either CW,AM,SSB stns to
"get the Hout of there". In the first place, it is the wrong approach
anyway! Secondly, each one had as much RIGHT to be ANYWHERE he wish' as
anyone else. It is a problem of educating to the advantages and winning
everyone's RESPECT for these frequencies! -- -- My experience over many
years, is that 99% of the 160m men are real good guys, ready & willing to
cooperate, for the good of all, IF they are treated fairly and with RESPECT.
We've run across only a few selfish, cantankerous and sour individuals, who
insist on their "Rights", regardless of how much it hurts the other 99% ---
One must exercise a LOT of restraint, patience, perseverance when this
happens, not to be "Touchy", or over sensitive, with these QRMers,
understanding that outside of the two or three "stinkers", the .problem in
mostly through ignorance carelessness, and not intentional. We have to
CONTINUALLY educate and help them and each other. REGARDING the two or three
"Stinkers", the INTENTIONAL QRMers, with their strings of dots/dashes on Fy,
swishes, modulated noises intentionally calling CQ on DX/Fys, In Window, etc
(See-QST/MAR p9, "Malicious QRM") Even here my experience is that "patience
has its reward". The BEST WAY to handle them is TO PAY NO ATTENTION
WHATSOEVER NOT EVEN MENTION it or them over the air. Me while, not
accomplishing their mission of causing trouble, annoying, or "Stirring Up A
Hornets Nest' they get tired and go away. -- The WORST thing to do is to
TAKE NOTICE of them, talk about them, call them names, retaliate, etc - this
is JUST what they are striving for To make acknowledgement of the trouble
they are causing, only makes a bad matter worse (This applies only to the
INTENTIONAL QRMers) (Others, it is helpful to acknowledge and try to help.)
One of those "Stinkers" on the West Coast has been caught and punished
severely. There'll be others surely, as we perfect means of detection and
"coping". Additionally, "Stinkerism" has its own reward!! Many New-Comers to
160 are heard to say what a difference and pleasure it is to operate on 160,
compared to HF bands. Let's keep it that way!! We can, with patience,
perseverance, tact and understanding. OK?? Comments??
<<

73's
JC
N4IS



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Re: Topband: SDR Mythbusters - ADC Overload myths debunked...

[JC]

Hi guys

I would like to add my 2 cents on this matter. If you not  good, or a very
good, RF engineer it is hard to understand what DDU/DUC radio do for you.
The most important thing, DDC/DUC  radios are not the same just because of
the DDC. Number of bits, jitter on the clock works like phase noise from LO.
What's in front of the ADC sets the performance as well the software and the
ADC

ADC overload only can be the limit when everything before the DDC can handle
more power than the ADC itself.  For the band you are listen. Most SDR
radios are using preamps to cover  1 to 50 MHz and guess what? Poor
performance on 160m. Example a common used T50-2 toroid barely can handle
20db IP3!!! 

Most of DDC uses the Linear Technologies LTC2208 16 bit.  Or similar DDC
with 16 bit.

http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/2208fc.pdf

These ADC devices overload near +10dBm , that's very high, its over +50db
IP3. However everything before that should be +50db better, and that is not
the case. I like the QS1R because does not have preamp and the LPF/BALUN is
quite good to handle strong signals. 

Another issue with DDC radios available nowadays is the lack of shield, they
looks like a computer board and that's it, performs like a computer board.
No good RF practice to protect the noise floor or common mode noise. Really
not ready for field use.

With all the new software development, construction and good RF design is
way behind. Lab tests on lab environment also does not tell the true value
of a radio. It gives you specific results for specific test conditions.

I believe DDC is the future, but we are not there yet.

Regards
JC
N4IS




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Re: Topband: Commond mode choke for Beverage

[JC]

Hi Filipe

Zero , you should use material #31  or #77 , The core you have is not good
for low bands.

JC
N4IS
-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Filipe
Lopes
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 8:46 AM
To: topBand <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Topband: Commond mode choke for Beverage

Hi guys,

I am about to add a common mode choke to isolate the antenna from its
feedline to each of my beverages and I only have FT240-61 ferrites. My
question is how many turns should I do on the ferrite using RG58 (all my
bevs are fed with RG58). Also should I put the choke near the 9:1 balun or
near my bev switching box?

Thanks in advance.

73's Filipe Lopes
CT1ILT - CR6K
F4VPX - TM3M
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Re: Topband: Commond mode choke for Beverage

[JC]

Hi Felipe

 

It works like a voltage divider where the impedance to ground should be lower 
as possible to give you more attenuation  like 1k/500ohms versus 1K/5 ohms 
divider. You should use the choke near a good ground before entering the 
station. If you switch box have a good ground it’s a good place to install  it.

More turns better, but it is limited by the diameter of the coaxial cable, like 
RG58/RG142 allows 12 to14 turns. RG213  only 8 turns.

 

Jim K9YC and a fantastic documentation about chokes. Please read this document 

 

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

 

You will be a specialist after reading this guide.

 

Regards

JC

N4IS

 

From: Filipe Lopes [mailto:ct1...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 9:52 AM
To: JC <n...@comcast.net>
Cc: topBand <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Commond mode choke for Beverage

 

Hello JC, 

 

Thanks for your answer.

 

I just ordered a few 2631803802 and 5943003801 from mouser.

 

With these ferrites I ask the same question, should I put the choke close to 
the 9:1 Balun or near the switching box and how many turns? some bevs have the 
feed point at +- 60m away from the switching box.

 




73's Filipe Lopes 

CT1ILT - CR6K

F4VPX - TM3M 

 

2015-10-12 15:40 GMT+02:00 JC <n...@comcast.net <mailto:n...@comcast.net> >:

Hi Filipe

Zero , you should use material #31  or #77 , The core you have is not good
for low bands.

JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com 
<mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com> ] On Behalf Of Filipe
Lopes
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 8:46 AM
To: topBand <topband@contesting.com <mailto:topband@contesting.com> >
Subject: Topband: Commond mode choke for Beverage

Hi guys,

I am about to add a common mode choke to isolate the antenna from its
feedline to each of my beverages and I only have FT240-61 ferrites. My
question is how many turns should I do on the ferrite using RG58 (all my
bevs are fed with RG58). Also should I put the choke near the 9:1 balun or
near my bev switching box?

Thanks in advance.

73's Filipe Lopes
CT1ILT - CR6K
F4VPX - TM3M

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Re: Topband: ADC Overload

[JC]

Hi Guys

It's well know the ability to copy weak signal near strong carriers. I run a
QS1R using HDSDR all the time shearing the same RX antenna with my IC7800.
In the last 10 years only once I worked a new country on 160 listening on
the SDR that I was not able to copy using the IC7800. David summer was
operating "simplex" from 4U1ITU once on 160m. and the pile up with US and
European station was very  "peculiar" on 1820.00. Everybody on the same
frequency. Yes the SDR is a better receiver but for practical reasons not
the more efficient radio to operate. 

Just have a driver problem with windows and you will find yourself hours
trying to find why the IP address does not match the SDR anymore or other
silly software things that takes hours to fix. 

I was not surprised to know from a good friend that some big contest
stations run DOS PC's!!

Here where the ADC overload gets complicated, when the ADC overload the
noise floor goes up for several seconds(or minutes), plus the pops. On low
bands all receiver antennas has different gain as you move up in frequency.
Like a Flag or beverage gain on 160m is low but the same antenna has  20 db
more gain on 10 MHz. Using the most common high pass filter to reduce AM BC
band bellow 1.8MHz infront a 20 db gain preamp, does not attenuate signals
from broadcast bands near 5 MHz, 7 MHz, 9 Mhz, 11 MHz, etc.  Endeed the
signal can be 40 dBm stronger than it should be in a vertical without
preamp. If the preamp is not tuned or have a band  pass filter after it ,the
problem of overload become a huge one, and you don't even know where the
overload  is coming from. AM BC reduces power during the night but
propagation brings strong signal from HF broadcast at night, specially near
SR and SS. It is not all the same during the day time or during the night.

If you check the top contest results you can find a good reason why the top
stations are using only few Radios models.

Regards
JC
N4IS 





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Re: Topband: Maunder minimum solar cycle in 2030?

[JC]

Thanks Bill

There is another video about Maunder minimum coming fast. As you can hear on
the video paid Scientist are paid to say so. 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MARk49q5FFY

73's
JC
N4IS
-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Tippett
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 3:17 PM
To: topband
Subject: Topband: Maunder minimum solar cycle in 2030?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3156594/Is-mini-ICE-AGE-way-S
cientists-warn-sun-sleep-2020-cause-temperatures-plummet.html
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Re: Topband: Fwd: ARRL Board meets next week - I'm looking for input

[JC]

Hi Larry

You right, I sent my comments to the board. The main rule I would like to
see implemented it the one in place, or  almost in place I should say it. 

All 160m QSL cards are verified by a certified 160m DXCC holder. QSO's
during day time are  rejected.

However LOTW does not have a simple software routine to check day time QSO's
on 160m and validate them. I reported several day time QSO's on 160m from
few PY's well know, but because the way LOTW works, if the QSO match on the
files when those QSO's was uploaded. It mean's validated!! ... and  as valid
the DXCC credit was  just few dollars away!! Without the same QSL
verification on/for the paper QSL!

I don't think the DXCC board will protect Ham Radio service when ARRL opened
the door for commercial use of ham radio frequencies paid U$ per minute. 

I see nothing wrong with the love to implement a remote station or a DX club
remote station.  I really love the technology that we built , it is part of
our DNA

BUT !! and here is the BUT , when we welcome HRH to commercialize air time
per dollar using our HAM RADIO privilege frequencies, we are in risk to lose
our entire ham radio privilege. It has nothing to do with remote operation
at all. It is about the nature of our service.

We are allowing the change of the nature of our service! When we do so. It
is just a matter of who pay more, it become a price negotiation of the air
waves usage . No love or passion anymore , just pure money talk.

Just to be aware there is real invasion of new HF services hungry for
broadband digital communication. Some future discussion will be only about
revenue and not about public safety, innovation, love for radio, all things
we care and hold us together for the last century.

Regards
JC
N4IS 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Larry
Burke
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 3:01 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Fwd: ARRL Board meets next week - I'm looking for
input

I am fascinated by the enforceability argument. There are a number
unenforceable DXCC rules. And they JUST ADDED A NEW ONE in January (For the
purpose of DXCC credit, all transmitters and receivers must be located
within a 500-meter diameter circle, excluding antennas). At some point it
really does come down to honor. Some folks have it, some folks don't. 

The recent rules tweaking was accompanied by lots of words about ethics,
with little clarification of what that word means. While it seems simple,
many are equating ethics with rules. They are not usually the same
thing. 

- Larry K5RK



-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of John
K9UWA
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 12:04 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Fwd: ARRL Board meets next week - I'm looking for
input

Although I agree with many who have posted to this thread I will only say
this. 

The ARRL can not create a DXCC rule that they have no ability to enforce. 

Other than some He Said She Said that Joe Doe's signal was coming from the
wrong direction so he wasn't transmitting from his home station. Even then
who is to say that Joe Doe wasn't off visiting some ham buddy on the other
side of the country? Then it is legal under current rules. And no one
complains about that type of operation. 

John k9uwa


John Goller, K9UWA  Jean Goller, N9PXF Antique Radio Restorations
k9...@arrl.net Visit our Web Site at:
http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
4836 Ranch Road
Leo, IN 46765
USA
1-260-637-6426

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Re: Topband: KD9SV-OK1RR relays ???

[JC]

 than the
noise on  80m or 40m. Guess which weak signal  may show up on that day,
Africa? VK0? That DX expedition you need for a new one... you bet. The other
95 % of the time, the NF has no SNR impact if the signal is 10db above the
noise floor, including the internal noise. The degradation is approximately
10% for a bad preamp and 1 % for a good preamp, it actually does not mean
anything. The preamp just reduces the damage of the noise problem on the
electronic circuit, it does not increase anything else, 10% reduction is, in
practice, the same as 1% or 0.1%. The gain I sonly important when you
cascade the preamp with the radio, the noise contribution of the radio will
be its NF divided by the gain the preamp in front of the radio. A radio with
a 20 db. NF, with a 20 db. gain preamp in front, will impact the NF of the
system by 20/20 = 1db, so, if your preamp has 2 db.  NF on 160m, the system
will have a 3 db. NF. The trick is that 95 % of the time you won't need the
preamp at all, it will only be needed in that 5% or 1% of the time to work
that weak signal from Africa for a new one on 160m.!!


6- Timing is a really huge problem and a sequencer is also a must. Here is a
very simple TX/RX antenna sequencer that I have been using for several years
that works very well. For CW the fix is very simple, use the sequencer
controlling your amplifier and preamp, and use a new design CW electronic
key that delays the dits and dots 30ms or more, 80ms to 100ms is a good
choice to work up to 25 wpm. That simple feature grounds the PTT and waits
all relays to bounce, after all is stable, it will start sending the CW key
to the radio. Also, most new CW circuits has tail delay to wait the CW kick
back. The small NEC AE2 relays or equivalent are fast enough and also very
small. The ideal relay is the G6K with 80 db. isolation at 2MHz

Douglas, my suggestion for you is that: use that out-put BNC after the
internal TR/RX relay, add two relays sequencer like the G3SEK bellow

http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/dx-book/sequencer/

Don’t mess with open frame relays not designed for RF, the lack of shield
you kill your RX performance. Use tin steel plated boxes, they are easy to
find on any food can, the aluminum enclosure does not cut magnetic field, it
also does not help to cut noise from switching power supply or PC monitors.
A shield and a good band pass filter will help you a lot .

Based on my experience with EWE FLAG's and WF in the last 10 years, I
recommend you to use no more than 10 db. gain preamp for single EWE, FLAG
and Beverage antennas (all are vertical RX antennas). For dual phased EWE,
FLAGS or vertical WF,  20 db. gain is enough (use the internal preamp only
during very quiet days). A NORTON preamp (K8ZOA) is the only preamp that I
recommend, it has low NF and high IP3.  For horizontal loops 20 db. gain is
enough, and for phased horizontal loops, like  HWF, a 40 db. gain preamp is
necessary. KD9SV has a new preamp with 40 db. gain and 1dB NF that I
recommend for phased horizontal loops.

Also try to use a delay CW electronic key like K1EL winkey (the new K16  IC
is just US$8) or any new design with delay and tail adjustment. Several
logging programs also have CW machine with delay feature.

My 20 cents.

N4IS
JC

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Douglas
Ruz (CO8DM)
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 8:42 AM
To: Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com; Charles Cu nningham
charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com; 'topBand List' topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: KD9SV-OK1RR relays ???

Tom and all members of the list thanks for your ideas and time .

I have a plan B:

I added a BNC female connector in the rear panel of my old Yaesu, FT747 (It
is an FT80C, the commercial version with metallic chassis) few months ago.

I was using that BNC to feed an SDR receiver using the same antenna.

If i add a SPDT switch also on the rear panel and RE-WIRE the BNC connection
i can get an RX port in my old radio and can connect an RX antenna...like
modern radios...Switch Pos A (main antenna at SO239)...Pos B (SO239 for TX
and BNC for RX)...i made few mods to my radio, so, i know it very well...

Maybe that will help...of course, i must add then an Front End Saver...still
need a fast relay !!!

Maybe the Plan A with a 5mS relay will be more easy...still need a fast
relay too !!!

73Douglas, CO8DM

No creo que haya alguna emoción más intensa para un inventor que ver alguna
de sus creaciones funcionando. Esa emoción hace que uno se olvide de comer,
de dormir, de todo. - Nikola Tesla
- Original Message -
From: Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com
To: Charles Cu nningham charlie-cunning...@nc.rr.com; 'topBand List' 
topband@contesting.com
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: KD9SV-OK1RR relays ???


 It seems to me that a very fast operating preamp protection circuit 
 could be constructed employing a good fast saturating NPN switching 
 transistor across the antenna path

Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[JC]

Art

I don't know where this coming from ,but the gain you need for a VWF modest
size is 20db for vertical polarization and for horizontal HWF you need 40db
on 160m, on 80m divide this by 2, you need only 20 dB  and on 40m 10 dB a
NORTON preamp is enough. All situations you need a band pass filter.

The WF change gain with high above ground but the RDF and  elevation angle
does not change, only the gain change, for 160m, changing the antenna height
120 ft. to 90 ft. the gain drops 2 dB, from 90 to 60 the gain drops 3 dB
more, and from 60 to 30 ft. 5 dB more, do for 160m HWF at 120ft the gain
drops 10 dB for a 30 ft. high HWF. 

KD9SV sells a preamplifier that I recommend, it is special designed for
WF's, check DXE page.

You can check some WF results on Doug page, NX4D. I heard over 295 countries
since 2006 using WF's, Doug heard over 300 and worked 295 on 160 since 2003,
both of us live in subdivisions and we use a 40 dB gain preamp with tuned
input and band pass filters after it.

http://nx4d10.wix.com/waller-flag

Detuning the tower or TX vertical antenna is  a " MUST " for VWF. Not a
problem for HWV. Inverter V also needs to be detuned in both cases. I
recommend don't waste your time if detuning is not on top of you to-do list.

Remove common node noise with chokes should be the second on the list,
Antenna and preamp is the last thing to get going.

Regards
JC
N4IS 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Arthur
Delibert
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 1:40 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag Question

The on-line materials about Waller Flags says that a modest size WF would
need about 40 dB of gain to boost the signal to a usable level.  One of the
postings says that cascading two preamps of 20 dB each seems to add extra
noise, and they talk about developmental work being done on a single preamp
of 40 dB.  

Is there now such a 40 dB preamp?  Is it made commercially?  Alternatively,
are there plans on-line somewhere?  Has someone actually used it in a
high-RF urban/suburban area, with multiple 50 kW AM BC stations?  With what
results?

Many thanks.

Art Delibert
KB3FJO
  
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[JC]

>>
At -140 dBm and 250 Hz noise bandwidth, the system would require a 1 dB
noise figure front end.  That's about 35 deg K noise temperature.
>>>
 
Tom is as usual 100% right, the RX system gain should be near 1 dB, it means
the preamp at 1.8 MHz should be .5 dB NF  the input filter and the feed line
< then .5 dB att. Together, not each. 
 

To  make things more complicated, when there is no atmospheric noise, like
we have in some winter days, the band noise can drop to 100K, and at that
point the gain of the WF and the NF of the system should be designed to  no
more than 3 dB deterioration  on signal to noise ratio, it means the 1 dB is
not enough, the solution for that is a bigger WF.

>>
Besides that, if the gain is so far negative the coaxial cable will easily
become more of an antenna than the thing we call an antenna.
<<

This is most common problem for all flag . EWE; WF and low gain antennas.
The only way to overcome this is using good quality twist par UNSHILDED
cable, or choke the cable as  much possible. If you know what you are doing.
However detuning any structure or antenna at the same frequency is a must,
it can deteriorate the directivity of the RX antenna to make it useless. No
free beef here.
>>

40 dB gain in front of a receiver is pure fantasy, unless the receiver is
dead as a door nail.
<<  

Tom,  I'm afraid I disagree but agree with some of  that, I am using a 43dB
gain preamp since 2010 with not a single failure yet, but I understand your
point. It is so delicate to implement that most of fellow that try it fail.
Even aluminum enclosure does not shield it enough, 40 dB gain is 10.000
voltage gain, it needs a dual shield with steel to cut magnetic field, the
feed lines must be decoupled over 80 dB, relays must be 100dB or more in
isolation, and much more details that I won't cover.

It is not a weekend project. 


Regards
JC
N4IS

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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[JC]

Andrew

Very interesting, that is my presentation, but my updated early terminated loop 
reference was from Harold H. Beverage patent applied 1938 and issue 1941 owned 
by RCA

U.S. Patent 2,247,743 Jul 1, 1941 Broadband Uni-directional Shortwave Antenna

http://www.google.com/patents/US2247743?dq=%22harold+h+beverage%22#PPA3,M1

Yes, the HWF is really a Beverage antenna. Hehehe.

Would you send me more information so I can update my History of the Flag 
antenna?

JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Ikin
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 5:53 PM
To: k...@myfairpoint.net; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

Bruce wrote on Sept 6.

Snip <
Check it out
http://www.qsl.net/k4fk/presentations/WF-receiver-antennas-SFDXAs.pdf  >

Bruce, ref to the link above there is a gap in the "History of the Flag 
Antenna" The earliest fef. to the Terminate loop  I have found is in Keen’s 
Wireless Direction Finding 1927 Ed. Page 75. Keen describes a two turn 
resistance terminated loop used by Societe Francaicse Radio-Electrique.  It 
resembles the K9AY and uses a similar operation to create a cardiode.

73

Andrew Ikin

G8LUG



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Re: Topband: [WARNING: A/V UNSCANNABLE]RE: Waller Flag Question

[JC]

Jim

The concept of horizontal dipole is just a name for a wire parallel to the
ground. If you change the description from TOTAL Field on EZENEC and use
Horizontal and Vertical field your results won't be the same. On low bands
Total Field is just one dimension. Horizontal and Vertical  makes all the
difference in propagation and signal to noise ratio.

JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 5:32 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: [WARNING: A/V UNSCANNABLE]RE: Waller Flag Question

On Mon,9/7/2015 1:05 PM, K1FZ-Bruce wrote:
> Thanks Jim,  There are new hams that do not know how horizontal 
> antennas patterns change over ground.

Right. In general, horizontally polarized antennas only care about height,
while vertically polarized antennas care SOME about height, but mostly about
soil conductivity. I gave a talk at Pacificon and to a couple of ham clubs
on this based on an extensive NEC modeling study. 
Slides are here.

http://k9yc.com/VertOrHorizontal-Slides.pdf

> On 160 meters, Usually, but nor always, higher is better up to 1/2 
> wavelength for low angle DX..
> Lousy soil, like low conductivity sand, dry desert soil, can put the 
> effective conducting ground much lower than the surface soil
>
> DX does not always come in at low angles. Antenna handbooks ARRL, and 
> Low Band DXing books are worth reading.

N6BV's Antenna Book statistical data for use with HFTA are an excellent
resource in that regard, but I think the data for 160M is interpolated from
data for higher frequencies. And yes, the ON4UN book is excellent on that
topic.

73, Jim K9YC
> 73
> Bruce-K1FZ
>
> www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
>
>
>   I saw that statement as well, which noted a gain of -53 dBi. My 
> NEC model, using Carlos's dimensions over lousy soil, computes -44 dBi 
> with a peak at 24 degrees.
> 73, Jim K9YC
> _
>
>
>
> _
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag

[JC]

Lee

Yes, this is confusing as it can get. Any passive component adds noise, any
active components adds noise. Power noise, and you only can add power noise
converting it in equivalent temperature in Kelvin degree.

The antenna itself is another confusing thing, any antenna has directivity
gain and power gain, when the efficiency in near 100% the power gain is the
same as directivity gain and most just say antenna gain, this assumes power
factor 1, no loss. 

EZENEC gain calculation for loops near ground is not perfect as well, If you
build a loop and measure the mv/m you find a surprised difference between
EZNEC power gain. Directivity gain is really RDF by definition so the HWF
and VWF has 11.5 directivity gain and let's say a very low power gain, the
system have losses.

The receiving systems starts at the preamp. Even if it's near the antenna,
far from the radio, or near the radio. The calculation is the same. 

The S meter in most analog radio measures the AGC, in SDR radios it can be
calibrates in dBm at the input of the preamp. That can be consider operator
preferences.

Power noise, power gain, voltage gain can be very confusing because the real
input or output impedance .

The discussion is really about the signal to noise ratio near the noise
floor of the receiver system. If you use you S meter at the input of the
preamp or after the preamp, it does not change the signal to noise ratio.

Small loops also have thermal noise itself and can be a limit factor as
well. 

>>
So in order to simply match the noise level of .446 uVolts with a signal you
need a signal impinging on this antenna that would produce 79 uVolts in an
antenna similar to the reference.
<<

I really don't understand you point can you elaborate it?


Regards
JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Lee K7TJR
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2015 4:01 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Waller Flag

I must be missing something.

The noise in a 50 ohm resistor is -174 dbm per root Hz at ambient temp.

Lets take 100Hz bandwidth for the receiver and the noise becomes -154 dbm or
.0045 uVolts

Lets add a PERFECT amplifier of 40 db. The noise output of the 40 db amp is
then -114 dbm or 0.446 uVolts

S-2 on a receiver with perfect S meter is .4 uVolts so the RX should set at
S-2 normally.

As I understand it the Waller antenna produces about -45 db of gain over
some reference.  (45 db Is 177 time voltage)


To me a signal of 79 uVolts is something over S-9 on a receiver. Would a
simple dipole or inverted Vee antenna with essentially no gain produce a
whopping signal from the same source. Of course it would pick up noise as
well but I would think it would not be of an equal S-9 level.

 

  Where did I go wrong in these figures. I must be astray somewhere.

 

Lee  K7TJR  OR

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Re: Topband: [WARNING: ATTACHMENT(S) MAY CONTAIN MALWARE]RE: Waller Flag Question

[JC]

I meant OFF and not ON for the internal preamp. I don't use internal preamp
ON.


The issue is most internal preamps are not designed for 160m, they need to
cover up to 50 MHz  Even the ICOM Norton preamp does not have the muscle to
handle the signals level on 160m. If you turn  <<  OFF >>  you internal
preamp and use a better preamp outside the radio with a good BPF or
pre-selector you will always  have the flexibility to adjust the system NF
reducing RF gain. But there is no way to improve NF, it is all about less
degradation of the signal to noise ratio.

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Topband: [WARNING: ATTACHMENT(S) MAY CONTAIN MALWARE]RE: Waller Flag Question

[JC]

>>
A 0.5 dB noise figure front end amplifier with NO other losses would produce
-149.5 dB MDS. That is the absolute maximum MDS sensitivity obtainable with
250 Hz BW and 0.5dB total input noise figure.
<<

Correct agree
>>

If we include the receiver's noise figure, 14.5 dBm gain would result is a
system composite noise figure of 3.44 dB. 
At someplace around 20-25 dB, you get into system limits. The improvement
from 30 dB to 40 dB is only 0.11 dB. No one will notice that.
>>

Agree when the signal is above noise floor

The issue is most internal preamps are not designed for 160m, they need to
cover up to 50 MHz  Even the ICOM Norton preamp does not have the muscle to
handle the signals level on 160m. If you turn on you internal preamp and use
a better preamp outside the radio with a good BPF or pre-selector you will
always  have the flexibility to adjust the system NF reducing RF gain. But
there is no way to improve NF it is all about less degradation of the signal
to noise ratio.

The low NF is required only when the propagation noise is very low, the
concept of degradation is based on human skills and vary from operator to
operator, Most of us can copy CW signal 3 db above noise, 2 db above noise
is hard to copy, and 0 db SNR is very hard  but some of us can compensate
that in their brain.

What I don't agree is that :

When the signal is at noise level. 3 db improvement on signal to noise ratio
can make a QSO possible, you can hear the DX early and for a long time
before it fade. 3 db degradation means 50% power noise and 50% signal power
noise. Near the MDS 3 db signal to noise is close to 3db NF improvement.

At this point the difference is copy or no copy. QSO or no QSO. Log the DX
or wait the next DX expedition.



<<
There is a point where inevitable system flaws make using an antenna with
such negative gain to require less than 1 dB NF impossible for "copy this
plan".  This is why Beazley's out-of-phase small horizontal elements were
mostly met with didn't work. The problem with models is we can build perfect
systems that we cannot repeat in the real world.
>>

Agree , the practical noise figure for the system is around 2 dB NF, The way
to drop the noise floor few db more is reducing the BW to 100 Hz or 50 Hz.
An EME experienced CW operator knows that some signals you can copy using 50
Hz and no copy with 100 Hz. It is that simple in real weak signal DX.

The MDS can be low as -157dbm for 50 Hz BW, and this is almost -s9,  if
using 6db for each S unit. There is a lot of dynamic range bellow s0.

3db makes a lot of difference, I fight for every .1 dBm I can get.

<<

Again my example of the small commercial loop I have. 

>>  

The HWF is not so small, for the WF300 (300 sq Ft.) I use 44 ft boom and
loops 24ft.x12ft.

However for a noise location there is  one ideal size, the trick is to drop
local manmade noise bellow or near  the MDS.  During the day the HWF looks
like a dummy load noiseless antenna. My system's uses different gain for
each band and tuned for a radios with 20 NF (no internal preamp on).

For noise locations the WF200 with 24 ft boom is a good choice.

Like I said , it's not a weekend project but can be done and it performs
very well. Polarization filter is a powerful tool for urban stations that
cannot be disregarded.

There is no commercial loop compatible or comparable to the HWF antenna, it
is a different ball game. 

The results worth the time and money to implement it.

It all a good debate and we agree in most of it. Or at least we agree we
disagree.

Regards
JC
N4IS
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Re: Topband: Waller Flag Question

[JC]

"" A similar observation was made 20 years ago by Brian Beezley, K6STI, in a
QST article titled "A Receiving Antenna that Rejects Local Noise" 
(September, 1995, page 33):  I've been looking around for something that
might work better than my present antenna, and I see good reports about the
Waller flag from people who are actually using it.  So I'll give it a try
and see how well the theory matches up with actual practice.  That's what
ham radio is all about -- no? >>>>

Here one of the last understood subject on radio and antenna work, most of
all paper about  antenna. RF and propagation on MF and low band are valid
only for vertical signals. 

For horizontal signal there is a major difference in the way Fields interact
with Matter. If are an Engineer or someone that wants to give a try I
recommend the book Electromagnetic Waves and Radiation Systems  Edward C
Jordan and Keith G Balmain  page 277 Chapter 9  and 372 Chapter 11 Antenna
fundaments.

There is no horizontal signal near the ground, there is no ground waive or
surface waive near the ground. So any or all manmade noise only can
propagate by vertical surface waive or ground waive. 

Increasing the directivity of the RX antenna you can increase signal do
noise ration my the same directivity gain. However is you turn the antenna
horizontal the attenuation on vertical propagated noises is huge!.

A low dipole on 160m,as example,  does not receive any horizontal signal!,
the only useful signal arrives vertical in the direction of the wire, same
case of beverage antenna. 

Check the excellent article by Kai KE4PT on QEX and QST about best high for
horizontal antennas. You will see that near the ground the attenuating is
severe near 4 decay's.

http://www.arrl.org/files/file/QEX_Next_Issue/May-Jun_2011/QEX_5_11_Siwiak.p
df

Using the antenna as polarization filter is the only solution to increase
signal do noise ratio in urban areas.

PY2XB lives downtown S Paulo, Fred is using WF for low bands and when he
detunes his inverted V the noise on the WF drops 2S unis on 80m. 

Tom is right about the 40 db gain, gain  means nothing, the NF of the system
is the only thing the matters.
Decrease your RF gain and increase the AF gain  that you will hear better
than most preamp's can help.

N4IS
JC



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Re: Topband: 160M EWE Problems

[JC]

Hi folks

I would like to add some comments to receiving antennas issue. Any resonant 
thing (wire, cable, rotor cable tower, TX antenna...) will interact with the RX 
antenna if they are in the same polarity, different polarity has 27 dB or more 
of isolation due the polarization itself.

The inverted L is easy to detune, just open the wire from the coaxial and check 
the noise on the EWE. The noise on the RX antenna needs to decrease one or 2 S 
units. However, it is possible you will not see any difference. The reason is 
that you may have another point where common noise is deteriorating the 
directivity of the RX antenna. If it work, just add a relay for detuning the 
Inv L during RX.

The integration with the inverted " L " TX antenna is the easy one do fix the 
others resonant "things" could be difficult to recognize. Example, if you have 
a low dipole or elevated radials, these "things" will destroy any directivity 
of nearby RX antennas, and nearby distance on 160m means 300ft or more, one 
wavelength. Rotor cable, VHF or other's 120ft feed lines could be resonant and 
a good reflector for noise and re-radiate them too.

Lack of good ground (or no ground at all) is receipt for failure on RX. Running 
the cables outside the tower and far from the ground is the preferred way to 
screw things up.

I am following every installation of my WF's and there is an issue very 
frequently found. It is bad connectors contact with the cable shield. Cold 
solder, no solder, little copper wire on the braid. One single point with a bad 
shield can ruin you RX system.

Doug Waller when he build the first WF was very disappointed with the results 
until he found a RCA connector with one RCA   ear not contacting the preamp 
input RCA female. Just one little gap in ear with no contact was enough to leak 
noise into the preamplifier input. After fixing the bad contact, the RX antenna 
started to work with good directivity. PL259 or a F connector with bad contact 
with the braid can cause several S units of noise.

Spending big money on the radio and do not care about the quality of the 
connectors used for RX is no sense.

Open frame relays (not coaxial relay), open contact switches, plastic boxes are 
the most common points to add noise and destroy the directivity pattern.

Running cable outside de tower and ground them at the base is not a very 
popular solution. It is hard to run the cables inside the tower they say. As a 
result RF is everywhere in the shack. No solution for that too.

I am just trying to help, there is no free beef regarding good RX systems.

73's
JC
N4IS





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Re: Topband: BOG near salt water

[JC]

"When you say "NOT work", you probably need to specifically list the diminished 
performance attribute due to more conductive media underneath."



The issue with horizontal wire and the ground is the fact that the reflected 
signal from the ground is 180 degree out of phase, (-1 in the formula) and with 
a good ground conductivity the current in the wire and the current in the 
ground will deeply cancel each  other. That’s why any horizontal wire very near 
the ground only receives along the wire and vertical polarized.

73's
JC

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Re: Topband: low band propagation at solar min

[JC]

"I assumed that this was normal propagation for 160 but I have never
observed anything consistently as good as it was in the 1980's.  Anyone else
found this to be true?  What was different about the solar minimum in that
decade?"

John.  I was in Brazil that time and I remember working several US station
using  100w and a low dipole during CQWW in May.

I have few observations on my records from last cycle hard to compare. 

Last solar minimum we have unprecedented opening throughout north pole. 

Several stations on Z18 was crossing the pole on 160m every night.

I remember one station on zone 18 working all US states in less than 30
days.

Long path, at least from Florida was unique I could work XU7ACY almost every
morning from October to March, but that was in 2010 , same long path
propagation on 2011. Zip , nada after 012.

2007, 2008 and 2007 where in the top 20 most spotless days list of last 150
years.

http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Sunspotless_days.JPG


My expectation is that cycle 25 should better than 24 for low bands. But
just my expectation without scientific reasons.

73's
JC
N4IS

 




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Re: Topband: best headphones for cw

[JC]

Some headphone can isolate noise very well. I like the Sennheiser HD280 , it
provide 36db isolation, but the best one I have is the MC5 from Etymotic ear
plug that can reach 42 db isolation. 

73'
JC
N4IS


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Re: Topband: Strange propagation

[JC]

>>>Which brings to mind another issue: 160m card checkers will disallow a
card if the DX QSO occurred in the middle of the day since the path would be
impossible.
Can't make that assumption, anymore.<<<


LOTW is responsible for 90% or more 160m DXCC confirmation and there is no
check on day light QSO on LOTW.

73's
JC
N4IS



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Re: Topband: Strange propagation

[JC]

<>

The issue is what you do and not what you say 

If all this new technology is do good , the HRH users should be proud of is
and PUBLISH, open publicly and announce proudly . 

""  I am a HRH user!!! ""

However that is far from reality,  the main business drive is privacy. HRH
warranty nobody will possibly know you are using this fantastic technology.

WHY?? Open the list of users, be proud of it! 

My 100 cents

N4IS
JC



-Original Message-
From: Herbert Schoenbohm <he...@vitelcom.net>
To: topband <topband@contesting.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 14, 2016 4:54 pm
Subject: Re: Topband: Strange propagation

Dave,  What will happen then is that the RHR gurus will just jack up the
rates to take the hams with deepest pockets. Additionally the laws of supply
will kick in and more RHR station and others will invest in this scheme to
put more stations on the air.  As this progresses the value of the entire
DXCC program will diminish. There must be some brakes put on this before is
is to late.  The other night I was thrilled to have an Italian station
calling me on 160 only to learn later he was actually on the mainland via an
RHR station.  Is this the way amateur radio is supposed to trend?


Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ

On 1/14/2016 5:28 PM, Dave Blaschke, w5un wrote:
> Look at the situation; There are just a few stateside RHR for rent 
> locations. As more and more "hams" begin to use these sites to work 
> DXpeditions, the queue length to access one of these sites will become  
> hopeless long. JUST A THOUGHT.
>
> Dave, W5UN
>
> On 1/14/2016 6:33 PM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote:
>> I have lost my amateur station in three major hurricanes over the 
>> years here, everything including radios (from water) and antennas. I 
>> have also rebuilt them a four different locations until I finally 
>> scrapped enough money together and bought a home next to a large salt 
>> pond. I have full remote station here but it only functions for 
>> contest operated by a cliff dweller in NYC who cares not for DXCC 
>> credit.  The problem with the US RHR deals is that it completely 
>> skews the process as far as the propagation differences across the 
>> fruited plan.  I would love to add to my DXCC totals as I close into 
>> the 300 mark.  USA stations can do this but is it ethical.  It sure 
>> makes money for a pay to play amateur radio scheme. But is it the way 
>> you want low band Dx-ing to become?  I hope not as you only will need 
>> a computer and an internet connection and everything else that used 
>> to a worthwhile effort is trashed.
>>
>> I remember a former 160 meter DX pioneer, Charles O'Brien who 
>> originally from Illinois used a 1/4 wave bent Marconi and 25 watts to 
>> work a G station.  This is what we are or what we used to be. RHR I 
>> am afraid is the end of an era were perseverance and not vast amounts 
>> of  QRO muscle and money decided who was on top. That is a shame and 
>> perhaps to some a disgrace as it really chances everything including 
>> the respect we have for those who did so much with so little.`
>>
>> Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ
>>
>> On 1/14/2016 12:43 AM, Dave Blaschke, w5un wrote:
>>> I will say this:
>>> operating a remote station (for money) owned and managed by someone 
>>> else will never be as satisfying as operating your own station, 
>>> built by your hands. But than again, if you have no station, and are 
>>> unable to build one up, what's your choice? I built (and rebuilt) a 
>>> beautiful station and antenna system here over the past fifteen 
>>> years, only to see much of it destroyed by storms in recent years.
>>> Now I am unable to rebuild anymore.
>>>
>>> Dave, W5UN
>>>
>>> On 1/14/2016 2:26 AM, Carl Luetzelschwab wrote:
>>>> Ed N1UR said "It seems non-trivial to me as to how to maintain 
>>>> these remote stations."
>>>>
>>>> My guess is it was someone using the Portland, OR station in the 
>>>> Remote Ham Radio network 
>>>> (http://www.remotehamradio.com/the-stations/). The stations are 
>>>> available for a price.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know whose actual station that is - but I'm sure it is 
>>>> someone's home station (just like all the others in the network).
>>>>
>>>> Carl K9LA
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>>>>
>>>
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>>
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>>
>
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Re: Topband: Am I the only one in step?

[JC]

> I'd like to think the CW-only ops can be cooperative too.

>>CW ops have ALWAYS had to bend over backwards during SSB contests. The
problem this year, as articulated in VE3ZI's post, is that there are/were
several DXpeditions out this weekend with operations on 160M that should
have been protected from QRM.
<<


I would like to say there gentlemen's on the band, ZF2AM, Thanks John !!! He
moved 2 KHz down from 1811.5 where ET7L was calling CQ listening up1, that
created a window clear enough for several USA and Europeans  stations to
work ET7L


ET7L was running 120W and a beverage towards US. The signal was amazing and
peaked 569  before their SR

So, there are plenty of gentlemen's on the band and the bad days with bad
propagation is over, we should have good propagation condition on 160m for
years to come.

73's
JC
N4IS


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Topband: #300 Small Lot DXCC

[JC]

Hi Top band lovers

Doug NX4D just reach a milestone on topband DX. #300 worked countries on
160m from 1/5 acre lot. Doug wants to motivate people about what is possible
with dedication and good practices.

>> 

 

2003 I set myself a goal to someday work 300 countries and 40 zones on 160m
from this 1/5 acre subdivision lot.  With Juan de Nova, that dream has just
come true. 

By offering my radio services as Emergency Communications Manager of "The
Springs" subdivision, I have been given permission to put up my antennas.
The tower is 82 feet and the WF RX antenna is 50 feet wide. 

I have lost most of three winter seasons due to power line and camper
trailer buzzes.  I am not saying it is easy, but hope this will be
encouragement to the Little Guns out there. 

73 / Doug / NX4D

 


>>>
(JC, I am not subscribed to Top Band Reflector.  Can you add this?)

 

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Re: Topband: Post contest season: TX antenna vs RX antenna cros-stalk. What do you do?

[JC]

>>I was wondering what people do besides the obvious 'kill the TX antenna
input during RX mode' ?<<

There are several reasons why it is necessary to detune the TX antenna
during RX, however disconnecting the center of the TX coax during RX on 160m
is a MUST. 

If you don't understand the problem you never implement the solution. Some
broadcast signal can reach -10 dbm or even 0 dbm. Most radios have very poor
isolation and pin 1 problem on both the RX input and TX input.

In order to open the center pin at the antenna feed point you need  a fast
vacuum relay to avoid hot switch. For an inverted L it will improve all RX
antennas removing re-radiation noise from the TX antenna.

Open the circuit between the transverter and the amplifier is a good idea.
You need a fast relay but it can be small.

Filters must be strong enough to hold at least 200w  with low insertion
loss.

The test to know if you have this problem is simple, disconnect the RX
antenna and use a 50ohms, shielded load to terminate the RX input. Tune on
the AM band and if you hear strong BC signals coming from you TX antenna
during RX with the RX port terminated with 50 ohms you have some homework to
do.

No carriers at all indicate that you have shield, grounding and choking in
good shape, if you hear strong AM signals means that you have isolation and
common node noise problems. If the BC signal can come in all QRN and other
noise sources also can come in and raise the noise floor of the receiver.

My station is quiet, I cannot detect any trace or light carrier doing the
test above. 

Regards
JC 
N4IS


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Topband: UN-REAL AND THE REAL WORLD 2016 FOR HAM RADIO

[JC]

Hi Folks

 

I have been working to improve my RX systems for several years. I ‘ve got
good results using good practice on grounding  shielding and detuning my TX
antennas.

 

I heard this several times from different hams, I need to update my system
to the REAL WORLD, my station is close to perfection ..  Well let me tell
what is happening when I am installing WF. I am personally involve on the
first 50 WF TOP-BEAM installations to make sure this thing about REAL WORLD
is part of my RX system.

 

With permission from PT9ZE let me explain what I found there . Zé Alfredo
lives in a farm, not any rural location. The farm is near Brazil Bolivia and
Paraguay border, the first city I hundreds of miles away.

 

Would you imagine a quieter place to install a HAM radio Station?

 

PT9ZE has an impressive station, 3 towers 120 ft. self-standing  500ft apart
, 1st 3 elements YAGI on 80m + 15m, 2nd 4 elements full size for 40m +15m  ,
both 70 ft. boom, 3rd  long 10m +6m.

 

We installed the WF on the tower #2 below the 10 m 7 elements. UNREAL
right!!

 

PT9ZE noise was very REAL due these REAL things.

 

1-  LG top line refrigerator, It uses a VFD motor and scream RF like
crazy.

2-  Siemens AC center unit. The noise sounds like  10 cw spark station
in contest.

3-  WiFi router 

4-  LED lamps

5-  UPS

6-  Cable/Satellite  TV box.

7-  Wall power supply for cellphone, computer and wireless telephone
extension.

 

And the list of noise devices we found goes on and on..

 

The station have an extensive ground system, all cables buried. Just
perfect. It was necessary to choke all those devices , I mean heavily choke
all wires in and out the devices.

 

Well …..welcome to REAL word, the ham radio practices from the last century,
unfortunately few years ago are no  longer enough or apply for REAL WROLD.

 

The REAL WORLD we live today brought the noise inside our homes. We need to
adapt fast if we want to keep enjoying radio.

 

Things I presented on the Webnair unfortunately is very real, grounding,
shielding using metal box, not aluminum that allows magnetic field through .
Run RX lines for receiving antenna inside metal conduit to avoid common mode
noise from inside and outside your hone.

 

One single connector with bad contact between coaxial braid and the PL259
was enough to allow s4 of noise into the receiver and this was after the
preamplifier.

 

I think the real world is here to stay and we need to review our best
practice for low band stations. 

 

A SWL AM/SSB portable radio to sniff the new source of noise is a very
important tool for the Real World.

 

 

73’s 

JC

N4IS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Topband: FW: UN-REAL AND THE REAL WORLD 2016 FOR HAM RADIO

[JC]

Hi Don

>>Because it's amplitude is time varying, aluminum or any other metal can 
>>provide an effective shield based on the skin effect principal (you just have 
>>to factor in the resistivity of the material and operating frequency to 
>>determine how thick the material must be to become an effective shield).<<

I think my preamplifier does not agree much with that. My PC LCD monitor screen 
was causing several noises I could hear on 160m and actually I could see them  
on the SDR waterfall. When I put the preamp inside a galvanized steel box all 
that crap coming from my PC and PC LCD monitor just vanished, the box was open 
in one side and not grounded.

The preamp was inside a TIM PLATE BOX used for EME shield with feedthrough 
capacitor and chokes, but the steel galvanized box improved the shield a lot.

1.8 MHz is quite a different band.

 

73’s

JC

N4IS

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Re: Topband: Comments on High Performance RX Antennas for a Small Lot (Webinar)

[JC]

Hi Rick

As I told in the webinar it is a  measured practical result, not a math
calculation.. I have a DDC SRD and several receiving antennas in a very
clean environment, only one TX antenna detuned, not other tower or Yagi etc.

I can switch from one receiving antenna to another and see  how much the
signal is above noise.

When you remove noise for every direction due RDF, increasing RDF the noise
floor decrease.

I can pick up a signal and measure db. above noise listening my TX vertical.
Then I switch to my vertical WF and the signal to noise ratio increase
average by 10 db., it has nothing to do with gain, just signal level against
noise level. Then I switch to my HWF and the SNR increase another 10 db.
from the  vertical WF , it is average 20 db. better them the same signal
against noise on my TX antenna.

That is observations and measurements since 2009. Any time I can detect a
improvement I stick with it, and try something else to get another new
improvement.  

Looking into my records and associating it with RDF, comparing with 5dB RDF
from a vertical TX antenna, I come up with average 1,5 to 2 db. increase on
SNR for each dB increase in RDF against a vertical TX.

I it a practical empirical result, you can try and check it by yourself.

Regards
JC



-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Richard
(Rick) Karlquist
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 12:38 AM
To: Topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Comments on High Performance RX Antennas for a Small Lot
(Webinar)

In this webinar, it was asserted (without explanation) that for every 1 dB
increase in RDF, you get 1.5 to 2.0 dB improvement in S/N ratio.  I've never
heard that before and don't even see how it makes sense.  Actually, I don't
even know how you can make generalizations like that unless you are
describing a theoretical QTH with uniform isotropic noise.  I'd like to
believe this is true.
Can someone educate me as to why I should believe this?

Rick N6RK
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Re: Topband: Comments on High Performance RX Antennas for a Small Lot (Webinar)

[JC]

Hi Frank

I agree with you. I'm near Fort Lauderdale in a city lot, directivity  from
my Vertical WF did help me a lot on 160, some rare DX like 4W6 was possible
only direct and using the vertical WF. 9M0 first time was also direct  using
the VWF but next year 9M4 was only possible to work using my HWF long path
SSW. 80 and 40m is very easy from here ,over 300 using only a R7 for TX on
40m and tuning my 160m TX antenna on 80m, not all the time, it is hard to
tune it.

The noise around me is increasing every year and I am not using my VWF
anymore, only the HWF( 11.5) dB RDF) due horizontal polarization the HWF
rejects most of the city noise. I tuned the HWF for maximum rejection of
vertical signal and the size is just big enough so I can hear some man made
noise, It is not tuned for maximum RDF(12 dB) or F/B. 

My average noise here during the day is  around -85dBm, a rural location
noise can be as low as -125 dBm, all 500 Hz BW. It is a 40 dBm  more noisy.

My 160m station is on my back yard, 150Ft x 50Ft , including the 64 radials
in between  25 Ft (70%) to 120 Ft (30%). Doug NX4D QTH is only 1/5 of an
acre for his WF and TX vertical. We are getting close to 300 countries on
160m, Doug is 298 and I'm 283 now.

Regards
JC

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
donov...@starpower.net
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 12:04 PM
To: Topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Comments on High Performance RX Antennas for a Small
Lot (Webinar)

Hi Tim, 


While RDF is helpful, nothing substitutes for devoting the effort to analyze
the detailed antenna pattern. RDF is especially useful in quiet rural areas
with very few homes and power lines and within several miles of our antenna,
but its insufficient for most of us. 



Very few of us live in an extremely quiet local RFI environment any more,
especially now that just one RFI generating electrical or electronic device
in a single home within a mile (or more) can suddenly ruin our previously
quiet RFI environment. Life was much easier when we only had to worry about
power line RFI. 


RFI caused by a high efficiency heating and air conditioning system in a
home a mile from my QTH caused me to install the 8-circle W8JI receiving
arrays at W3LPL to provide a much narrower main beam than I could achieve
with Beverage antennas. The 8-circle often provides a tremendous improvement
compared to my 580 foot Beverages which I still have and use. I don't have
adequate space for longer Beverages or arrays of phased Beverages. 


Most of us care more about narrowing the beamwidth of the main beam at
elevation angles below about 30 degrees while also inimizing RFI arriving at
all azimuths outside the main beam at low angles. RDF doesn't do that for
us, it optimizes over the entire hemisphere, often at the expense of better
RFI rejection at low angles. 


Better RFI rejection usually results in a different optimization than RDF
alone can provide. RDF provides a good starting point, but it doesn't
provide the complete answer for most of us. 


73
Frank
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Tim Shoppa" <tsho...@gmail.com>
To: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <rich...@karlquist.com>
Cc: Topband@contesting.com
Sent: Friday, March 4, 2016 2:59:34 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Comments on High Performance RX Antennas for a Small
Lot (Webinar) 

The RDF seems to be the best we have at the moment, for taking a
3-dimensional pattern and turning it into a single number. Of course the
details of the 3-dimensional pattern are lost. 

In addition to the quantitative RDF or S/N numbers, the qualitative change
in pattern as you move up the RDF is remarkable. We go from 

* no directivity
* a null in back with not much differentiation between forward and side
* increasing side rejection
* near-complete side rejection
* increasing rejection of directions near forward but not quite forward 

The 8-circle is mind-blowing. 

Tim N3QE 

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:37 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
rich...@karlquist.com> wrote: 

> In this webinar, it was asserted (without explanation) that for every 
> 1 dB increase in RDF, you get 1.5 to 2.0 dB improvement in S/N ratio. 
> I've never heard that before and don't even see how it makes sense. 
> Actually, I don't even know how you can make generalizations like that 
> unless you are describing a theoretical QTH with uniform isotropic 
> noise. I'd like to believe this is true.
> Can someone educate me as to why I should believe this? 
> 
> Rick N6RK
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> 
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Re: Topband: : RDF in the real-world

[JC]

>that a BOG antenna is a tuned circuit not a traveling wave antenna. <
 

Hi Bruce, I am missing something here, can you elaborate on that statement?

73
JC
N4IS

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Re: Topband: RDF in the real-world

[JC]

Hi Carl

Yes, the concept is assuming equal density noise spread uniform. However there 
air point everybody wants to hide. Vertical polarized antennas based on phasing 
elements does change directivity and does have interaction with others vertical 
elements. It is hard to measure it because you cannot turn the antenna for 
different directions to measure it.

The Bog is a travel wave antenna, and it is based on the difference in velocity 
on the ground and on the wire, it does not interact or deteriorate with other 
vertical structures like the flags. The SAL antenna is really a K9AY very 
complicated but same directivity and RDF, the TX antenna does deteriorate the 
pattern and you can’t see the same reduction in signal to noise ratio because 
the REAL RDF is no longer the same as the CALCULATED RDF. The BoG  performance 
is more predictable, like the beverages and the real RDF is close to calculated 
RDF.

Like you see in the diagram when I remove the detuning skirt from my TX 
antenna, with that tiny yellow jumper grounding the skirt, the radiation patter 
of my excellent VWF become useless without detuning the TX antenna.

The Webnair is limited to one hours and there are interesting aspects of each 
antenna that deserved more time to elaborate, maybe next time with dedicate one 
hour for each type of antenna.

The  idea was to quantity what directivity can do for you in practical DXing.

Regards
JC

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of K1FZ-Bruce
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 10:02 AM
To: Carl Luetzelschwab <carlluetzelsch...@gmail.com>; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: RDF in the real-world


I agree. There are times, especially in disturbed condx, when my BOG antennas 
are "head and shoulders" better than my other antennas. 
 
73
Bruce-K1FZ
www.qsl.net/k1fz/bogantennanotes.html
 
 
 

   I can't vouch for JC's numbers (his numbers may be QTH specific), but 
the concept is believable since the theoretical assumption of isotropic noise 
falls apart in the real-world. My BOG *at times* gives much more of an SNR 
improvement than the SAL-20 (using measurements on a calibrated S-meter) in 
spite of the small difference in RDF between the BOG and SAL-20. 

Carl K9LA
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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[JC]

SORRY am not getting into this PR..   PIXEL loop is a low RDF and LOW
performance receiving antenna, it is really snake oil.

I'm out of this discussion.

Regards

JC


>>
In tests, the Pixel magnetic loop provided at least 20 dB null off the
sides.  From my experience, that is much better "filtering" than what
would be had with a horizontal loop.   Of course it isn't all in the
antenna itself--a great deal of the success comes from the special preamp
designed for use with the antenna.
<<<
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Topband: WF300 vertical & horizontal noise and & magnetic loop

[JC]

Hi folks

 

The Waller Flag is a high performance antenna, however the station should be
well grounded. Using toroid chokes it is possible to know down common mode
noise.

 

N8PR is working hard to clean all the unwanted noise on his station here in
Fort Lauderdale. Pete station is very close to 50KW BC AM station. Lots of
choke still need to be installed, however the initial results are very
interesting.

 

Pete has a magnet loop and on the video I uploaded to YouTube shows some
competition between WF vertical and horizontal. 

 

One of the last layer of noise removed was common mode noise coming from the
rotor cable. Pete demonstrate on the video how the impact of a choke on the
rotor cable. If you have other strong noises you won't see the same result
because first you need to remove the top layer of common mode noise.

 

I hope you guys enjoy Pete's video. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4os4qcaT08

 

Regards

JC

N4IS

 

See you guys at Dayton.

 

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Re: Topband: VK0EK confirmation

[JC]

My two cents

Few weeks ago  I requested VK0EK QSL card using  Online QSL Request System
(OQRS), with a modest donation.

I checked LOTW and my confirmation was not there, I forgot to upload my log
update. buhhh !!

After I upload my log update I got the confirmation same day. Really nice
and fantastic fast!

The delay could be just  a QSL process issue.

Regards
JC
N4IS

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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[JC]

Correct link  for the pdf file, It has more slides not covered during the
time limited webinar 


http://wwrof.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/WWROF-WEBNAIR-RX-Antennas-for-a-
Small-Lot-.pdf


JC



-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of JC
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 10:36 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: The band sans noise

Hi Guys


The issue with noise is growing fast and the only way to improve signal to
noise ratio is more directivity and when possible filter the man made noise
with a horizontal loop.

My last presentation is available at www.wwrof.org   webinar archive.

http://wwrof.org/category/webinar-archive/

One single horizontal loop can make a difference between QSO and no QSO in
all bands. Even a not well implemented loop like the one below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRZyKrsF1CQ

For 160m you need the horizontal loop high as possible, more information on
my Webnair, the slides are also available here.


http://wwrof.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/WWROF-WEBNAIR-RX-Antennas-for-a-
Small-Lot-.pdf

I'm in a city lot, suburb of Ft Lauderdale Fl, VK0EK. 3D0A, C92, VP8's
FT4JA, and almost every active station on 160m are in my log, over 300
countries heard on 160m and #286 worked since 2006, and HWF since 2010.

Vertical polarization is not a solution for urban 160m stations to fight man
made noise.

Regards
JC
N4IS



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Re: Topband: The band sans noise

[JC]

Hi Guys


The issue with noise is growing fast and the only way to improve signal to
noise ratio is more directivity and when possible filter the man made noise
with a horizontal loop.

My last presentation is available at www.wwrof.org   webinar archive.

http://wwrof.org/category/webinar-archive/

One single horizontal loop can make a difference between QSO and no QSO in
all bands. Even a not well implemented loop like the one below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRZyKrsF1CQ

For 160m you need the horizontal loop high as possible, more information on
my Webnair, the slides are also available here.


http://wwrof.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/WWROF-WEBNAIR-RX-Antennas-for-a-
Small-Lot-.pdf

I'm in a city lot, suburb of Ft Lauderdale Fl, VK0EK. 3D0A, C92, VP8's
FT4JA, and almost every active station on 160m are in my log, over 300
countries heard on 160m and #286 worked since 2006, and HWF since 2010.

Vertical polarization is not a solution for urban 160m stations to fight man
made noise.

Regards
JC
N4IS



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Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

[JC]

Nowadays we have a huge amount of RF repeaters in use for several services,
like , Wi-Fi , LTE4, Data links. Microwave links, FM stations link, TV video
links. 

All these systems has a receiver and a transmitter. The intermediated
frequency used can be close to few MHz depending the services. Like video.
Our HF signal can become data in these system,. A lot of this system does
not have the quality necessary, price is always a sales point, so poor
shield is very common.

 SDR technology that provide long delays, and  with very bad IP3 front end
are very common used on these system.  

The long cables with not appropriate ground can become efficient antennas
for low bands, the common mode noise can get into the IF system and on the
receiver side and retransmitted on the transmitter side. 

My point is that atmospheric plasma loops may not be the only answer for
250ms echo's. It is most unlike due the small power used during the event
observed. Manmade echo are more likely to explain the echo.

73's
JC
N4IS



 repeaters, Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Shoppa
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 4:44 PM
To: on7eh <on...@skynet.be>
Cc: topBand List <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Echo on 160m yesterday morning

I have heard echoes of my own signal under some circumstances too. More
often on 80M but a couple times on 160M. Often in the hour before dawn.

These echoes were also heard on other stations within a few hundred miles,
especially ones to my north.

For the 160M echoes, some stations in W1 were nearly uncopyable on my
receive antenna (K9AY) because of the echo. The echo was very similar to a
dit length and very similar in strength.

Interestingly enough, if I went to listen on my transmit antenna (Vertical),
the echo completely went away.

Tim N3QE

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 4:32 AM, on7eh <on...@skynet.be> wrote:

> For the first time,
> I heard my echoes on topband, yesterday morning starting around 05 UTC.
> They lasted for at least 1 hour, with some OFF-periods in between.
> I had to quit at 06 UTC. (still 1 hour before surise)
>
> The echoes were loudest on the short Beverages (<60m long) heading N/S 
> and NE/SW and several dB lower on the NW/SE Beverage. (about 130m long).
> The Tx setup is modest with Elecraft K3/100 and inv L at 15m height, 
> sloping down to 11m.
>
> Only DX heard that morning was USA (typical condictions) so I wonder 
> what else does hearing echoes indicate?
>
>
> 73,
> Michel, ON7EH
>
>
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
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Re: Topband: greyline prop forecast

[JC]

<<
True grey line radio wave propagation rarely occurs on 160 meters and true
long path propagation even less. When it does the opening is usually only a
few minutes long. Instead it's usually a skewed path that includes RF signal
ducting in the E Valley/F layer propagation region.
>>>>


I'm afraid I disagree 100%  long path or SSE/SSW is very common on 160m and
almost daily on 80m. Some years long path are more intense, like 2010 I
heard and worked XU7ACY on 160 50 days between October and March, 2014 I
worked DU7ET every month from October to June!

When long path is open it stays open for one or two weeks every day, both
station should be inside gray zone and the peak is normally 30 minutes
before sunrise and after sunset , when there is more darkness the peak in
the middle of the darkness period, like W4ZV mentioned several times on his
papers.

80m and 40m the long path SSE SSW is almost every day near SS or SR during
DX season.

I had a web page on the interweb for 20 years concerning MF radio wave
propagation (300-3000 kHz).
>>>
Antenna polarization plays a large role in the success of a long haul DX
contact. As a medium frequency RF signal traverses our planets magnetic
lines of force in a perpendicular manner on high and mid latitude paths say
between W3 land and SM, higher angle horizontally polarized signals are more
readily absorbed then lower angle vertically polarized signals. On other
paths on the globe opposite results can be found, i.e. horizontally
polarized signals suffer less absorption on a propagation path between VK6
and W4.

<< 

again absolutely disagree, Long path on 160. 80 and 40m are mainly
horizontal polarized, I see that every day here in Florida using my
horizontal WF and comparing with my Vertical WF. It is observed and
documented in a daily base since 2009 when I started to use horizontal
polarization on 160m. A/B test is a fact not a proposed explanation of
ionosphere behavior.

73's
N4IS
JC

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Re: Topband: Modeling Transmit Antenna Affect on Rx Antenna Performance?

[JC]

My TX antenna is 60ft from my vertical WF and my horizontal WF is at the top
of my TX antenna.  I am using a Folded Unipole configuration, it is  a skirt
with 3 wires forming a cage.  The skirt detune the tower during RX and help
the TX with a huge broad band. 

In your case, just open the T disconnecting it from the coaxial cable using
a fast vacuum relay. This will to the same as my UNIPOLE.  Just keep the T
floating during RX.

73
JC
N4IS


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Re: Topband: Modeling Transmit Antenna Affect on Rx Antenna Performance?

[JC]

Your feedline is about 350 feet. That is (with RG213 -velocity 0,66-) close
to 1 wavelength. With 1 wavelength feedline, the TX antenna is floating when
the feedline is open in the shack.


I'm sorry to say that , but the concept is wrong, the TX antenna resonance
as structure has nothing to do with the impedance. Floating the element
makes it 1/4 element, keeping it connect it works like a 1/2 wave resonant
antenna.

I presemted some solutions on my Webnair at wwwrof, still available and you
can download the slides with extra information. Like PY2XB inverted V when
disconnected from the feed line drops the noise 2 S units on the RX antenna.

Changing the impedance you can notice a change in the noise but only few
dbs.

JC
N4IS

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Re: Topband: Modeling Transmit Antenna Affect on Rx Antenna Performance?

[JC]

Your feedline is about 350 feet. That is (with RG213 -velocity 0,66-) close
to 1 wavelength. With 1 wavelength feedline, the TX antenna is floating when
the feedline is open in the shack.

Just wrong once more. !! 

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Re: Topband: Hi Gain Preamps, Noise Figure Comparison (KD9SV 994 x5, W1FB, W7IUV preamps)

[JC]

Hi Don

Measuring noise figure below 1 db is a very complicated work. 

First you need to remove all common mode noise, your noise floor should be
better than  -135 dBm at least with a 40 db preamp connected to the radio
input and a 50 ohms load.

You need chokes everywhere and most important shield on 12V, RF in and RF
out. Check the AM band you hear carrier coming in , noise is also coming in.

 Second the NF is very different on 1.8 MHz , measurement near 10 Mhz, does
not tell you the right NF on low bands.

In order to have Noise Figure Uncertainty near .2db it is necessary a good
quality lab equipment, calibrated and two hours per measurement for each NF
reading. This assuming the temperature does no change during the test.


Your Noise Figure Uncertainty based on your video could be 5db or more.


73's
JC

N4IS

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Topband: DX Propagation long path is getting strong this season

[JC]

Hi topband lovers

 

Comments and an heads-up to watch for openings SSE/SSW on 160, 80, and 40m.

 

This DX season is starting somehow different from last ones. Two weeks ago a
heard BD7PUZ 569 for 15 minutes after my SR (22:30z) on 160m, signal coming
150 degree SSE. It was the first time I heard China on 160m in the evening.


 

The DSt index is unprecedented high near +20 for few days. DSt will plunge
again soon when we get hit by the arriving G1 magnetic storm coming. DSt
needs to be above +0 for several days for good possibility of long path,

 

http://lasp.colorado.edu/space_weather/dsttemerin/dsttemerin.html

 

 

This morning WL7E signal was stronger long path 210 degree, also it was the
first time I heard KL7 from 210 degree. Joe signal was 579, real a strong
signal ( horizontal polarized) , N4II also using a Waller Flag heard the
same from the Boca Ratoon DX Club.. Joe mentioned that he worked several
Europeans last week pointing antenna toward Australia, near 210 degree,
again the same SSW/SSE path.

 

I can say for sure it is difficult to understand why SSW/SSE direction for
almost everywhere you are in the north part planet. PY2RO is using a Waller
Flag and now he tell us how direction long path is arriving for stations
south of the equator.

 

December 2011 was the best long path propagation day I remember. It seems
that conditions is coming back. I hope more good long conditions is possible
this DX season. JA7QVI Tac also worked long path this morning but some QSB
and a quick shift towards west. Joe (WL7E) also reported poor condx to Japan
this morning, go figure!

 

We don't understand it ,but enjoy it for sure, Any comments on SSE/SSW are
welcome , this propagation mode is becoming more common.

 

73's

JC

N4IS

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: Long path propagation SSE/SSW

[JC]

Hi topband lovers

 

Comments and an heads-up to watch for openings SSE/SSW on 160, 80, and 40m.

 

This DX season is starting somehow different from last ones. Two weeks ago a
heard BD7PUZ 569 for 15 minutes after my SR (22:30z) on 160m, signal coming
150 degree SSE. It was the first time I heard China on 160m in the evening.


 

The DSt index is unprecedented high near +20 for few days. DSt will plunge
again soon when we get hit by the arriving G1 magnetic storm coming. DSt
needs to be above +0 for several days for good possibility of long path,

 

 <http://lasp.colorado.edu/space_weather/dsttemerin/dsttemerin.html>
http://lasp.colorado.edu/space_weather/dsttemerin/dsttemerin.html

 

 

This morning WL7E signal was stronger long path 210 degree, also it was the
first time I heard KL7 from 210 degree. Joe signal was 579, real a strong
signal ( horizontal polarized) , N4II also using a Waller Flag heard the
same from the Boca Ratoon DX Club.. Joe mentioned that he worked several
Europeans last week pointing antenna toward Australia, near 210 degree,
again the same SSW/SSE path.

 

I can say for sure it is difficult to understand why SSW/SSE direction for
almost everywhere you are in the north part planet. PY2RO is using a Waller
Flag and now he tell us how direction long path is arriving for stations
south of the equator.

 

December 2011 was the best long path propagation day I remember. It seems
that conditions is coming back. I hope more good long conditions is possible
this DX season. JA7QVI Tac also worked long path this morning but some QSB
and a quick shift towards west. Joe (WL7E) also reported poor condx to Japan
this morning, go figure!

 

We don't understand it ,but enjoy it for sure, Any comments on SSE/SSW are
welcome , this propagation mode is becoming more common.

 

73's

JC

N4IS

 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Bowtie Flags

[JC]

Hi Mark

Terminated loops are very old, the first patent belongs to Harold Beverage 

Harold Beverage invented wide band receiver antenna, loaded loop in 1941

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/
US2247743.pdf

Most variations of this kind of antennas like this was used by military
during WWII. Some commercial versions started to come up on the 60's, Tom
W8JI worked the first JA using a similar RX antenna with multiple loops
phased end fire.

You see, the loaded loop is a Beverage antenna too.

73
N4IS


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don Kirk
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:08 PM
To: Mark Connelly 
Cc: topband 
Subject: Re: Topband: Bowtie Flags

Hi Mark,

I had no idea a terminated bowtie previously existed, but does not surprise
me.

Thanks for posting.
Don

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Mark Connelly via Topband <
topband@contesting.com> wrote:

> As Nick undoubtedly knows, Bowtie antennas have been in use by medium 
> wave broadcast band DXers for some time now.
>
> One I tested here in 2010 is shown in this sketch:
> http://www.qsl.net/wa1ion/pictures1/bowtie_s_yarmouth.gif
>
> Some use a dual feedline scheme so the pattern can be reversed.  This 
> would be implemented by 16:1 transformers at each end if 50-75 ohm 
> coaxial cable is used or 9:1 transformers if using 90-150 ohm balanced 
> feed (CAT-5, speaker wire, two conductor zip / lamp cord, twisted pair 
> etc.) as recommended by Dallas Lankford and others.  In the balanced 
> feedline case, a 1.8:1 or 2:1 transformer (e.g. #73 binocular core 
> with 4 turns : 3 turns or 7 turns : 5 turns) is used in-shack to get 
> to unbalanced coaxial en route to the receiver / transceiver, RPA-1 or
similar amp, or phasing unit.
>
> Dual feedline split flag is another variant:
> http://www.qsl.net/wa1ion/pictures1/dual_feed_split_flag.gif
>
> Dual feedline antennas have a 4-pole 2-throw switch at the shack end 
> so either end can be switched to the receiver path and the opposite 
> end to a
> 250 or 500 ohm pot that facilitates in-shack null termination adjustment.
>
> Some people go with a single orientation antenna and put a preamp such 
> as the Wellbrook FLG100LN ( http://www.wellbrook.uk.com/FLG100LN-1 ) 
> right at the forward side.  This tends to overwhelm any feedline 
> pick-up (common-mode or otherwise) although common-mode choking is 
> still advisable near the antenna when longer runs (over 60m / 200 ft.) 
> of feedline are involved.
>
> In the case of a single orientation set-up, you then get to figure out 
> what termination end scheme is best.  These basically boil down to the 
> following options:
> (1) Fixed resistor in the 680-1200 ohm range either modelled / 
> guessed-at or determined by use of a potentiometer if it can somehow 
> be adjusted midway up the side of the antenna while monitoring a target
station to null.
> (2) "Vactrol" termination: a photoresistor adjusted by a DC voltage 
> applied on a control line from the shack: see page 9 of 
> http://www.durenberger.com/documents/PRESBT2016.pdf
> (3) Potentiometer adjusted by a motor drive: see 
> http://www.bamlog.com/ remotepotbox.htm
>
> My experience with the Bowtie I installed in 2010 was that it was 
> about
> 10-12 dB less sensitive than a Flag or Kaz Delta occupying the same 
> rectangular "box" of air space.
>
> Nulling off the back could be wider than that of a Flag but the 
> bandwidth at which the null stayed optimum at a particular terminating 
> resistance was not as wide as with the Flag (or its SuperLoop base-fed
variation:
> http://www.bamlog.com/superloop.htm ).
>
> Seeing that the MW broadcast band 530-1710 kHz has a greater max/min 
> frequency range ratio than the 1800-2000 kHz of 160m, issues that 
> might be problematic for broadcast DXers could matter a lot less on 160.
>
> Some of the perceived problems of low gain and null bandwidth could 
> easily have been cured by a combination of rigorous common-mode 
> choking as done on the Waller Flag ( 
> http://www.kkn.net/dayton2011/N4ISWallerFlag.pdf ) and high gain
at-antenna amplification.
>
> Mark Connelly, WA1ION
> South Yarmouth, MA
>
> <<
> Nick,?
>
> ?
> Although I did not measure it, the front to back, and front to side is 
> better, overall more quiet.
> ?
> It is receiving toward the Caribbean.?
> Europe, and USA stations, are lower in signal strength.
> ?
> Can often work?Caribbean and South American stations through a small 
> pile up when they are not working split.
> ?
> In my case it was a worth while change.
> ?
> The original plan was to be able to drive my car under it.
> ?
> 73
> Bruce-K1FZ
> ?
>
> On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 16:35:14 +, Nick Hall-Patch wrote:
>
> What specific improvements did you note when the Delta was raised Bruce?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nick
> VE7DXR
> >>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - 

Re: Topband: Bowtie Flags

[JC]

Sorry, the invention was in 1938 and the patent issued 1941

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of JC
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 6:28 PM
To: 'Don Kirk' <wd8...@gmail.com>; 'Mark Connelly' <markwa1...@aol.com>
Cc: 'topband' <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Bowtie Flags

Hi Mark

Terminated loops are very old, the first patent belongs to Harold Beverage 

Harold Beverage invented wide band receiver antenna, loaded loop in 1941

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/
US2247743.pdf

Most variations of this kind of antennas like this was used by military
during WWII. Some commercial versions started to come up on the 60's, Tom
W8JI worked the first JA using a similar RX antenna with multiple loops
phased end fire.

You see, the loaded loop is a Beverage antenna too.

73
N4IS


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don Kirk
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:08 PM
To: Mark Connelly <markwa1...@aol.com>
Cc: topband <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Bowtie Flags

Hi Mark,

I had no idea a terminated bowtie previously existed, but does not surprise
me.

Thanks for posting.
Don

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Mark Connelly via Topband <
topband@contesting.com> wrote:

> As Nick undoubtedly knows, Bowtie antennas have been in use by medium 
> wave broadcast band DXers for some time now.
>
> One I tested here in 2010 is shown in this sketch:
> http://www.qsl.net/wa1ion/pictures1/bowtie_s_yarmouth.gif
>
> Some use a dual feedline scheme so the pattern can be reversed.  This 
> would be implemented by 16:1 transformers at each end if 50-75 ohm 
> coaxial cable is used or 9:1 transformers if using 90-150 ohm balanced 
> feed (CAT-5, speaker wire, two conductor zip / lamp cord, twisted pair
> etc.) as recommended by Dallas Lankford and others.  In the balanced 
> feedline case, a 1.8:1 or 2:1 transformer (e.g. #73 binocular core 
> with 4 turns : 3 turns or 7 turns : 5 turns) is used in-shack to get 
> to unbalanced coaxial en route to the receiver / transceiver, RPA-1 or
similar amp, or phasing unit.
>
> Dual feedline split flag is another variant:
> http://www.qsl.net/wa1ion/pictures1/dual_feed_split_flag.gif
>
> Dual feedline antennas have a 4-pole 2-throw switch at the shack end 
> so either end can be switched to the receiver path and the opposite 
> end to a
> 250 or 500 ohm pot that facilitates in-shack null termination adjustment.
>
> Some people go with a single orientation antenna and put a preamp such 
> as the Wellbrook FLG100LN ( http://www.wellbrook.uk.com/FLG100LN-1 ) 
> right at the forward side.  This tends to overwhelm any feedline 
> pick-up (common-mode or otherwise) although common-mode choking is 
> still advisable near the antenna when longer runs (over 60m / 200 ft.) 
> of feedline are involved.
>
> In the case of a single orientation set-up, you then get to figure out 
> what termination end scheme is best.  These basically boil down to the 
> following options:
> (1) Fixed resistor in the 680-1200 ohm range either modelled / 
> guessed-at or determined by use of a potentiometer if it can somehow 
> be adjusted midway up the side of the antenna while monitoring a 
> target
station to null.
> (2) "Vactrol" termination: a photoresistor adjusted by a DC voltage 
> applied on a control line from the shack: see page 9 of 
> http://www.durenberger.com/documents/PRESBT2016.pdf
> (3) Potentiometer adjusted by a motor drive: see 
> http://www.bamlog.com/ remotepotbox.htm
>
> My experience with the Bowtie I installed in 2010 was that it was 
> about
> 10-12 dB less sensitive than a Flag or Kaz Delta occupying the same 
> rectangular "box" of air space.
>
> Nulling off the back could be wider than that of a Flag but the 
> bandwidth at which the null stayed optimum at a particular terminating 
> resistance was not as wide as with the Flag (or its SuperLoop base-fed
variation:
> http://www.bamlog.com/superloop.htm ).
>
> Seeing that the MW broadcast band 530-1710 kHz has a greater max/min 
> frequency range ratio than the 1800-2000 kHz of 160m, issues that 
> might be problematic for broadcast DXers could matter a lot less on 160.
>
> Some of the perceived problems of low gain and null bandwidth could 
> easily have been cured by a combination of rigorous common-mode 
> choking as done on the Waller Flag ( 
> http://www.kkn.net/dayton2011/N4ISWallerFlag.pdf ) and high gain
at-antenna amplification.
>
> Mark Connelly, WA1ION
> South Yarmouth, MA
>
> <<
> Nick,?
>
> ?
> Although I did not measure it, the front to back, and front to side is 
> better, over

Re: Topband: Twist a Flag into a Bowtie?

[JC]

Hi Nick

The wire will reduce loss on the transmission line given a better match and
phase. In practice you can see change on the SWR and front back. If you have
a good ground you probably won't see anything  changing.

Regards
JC

-Original Message-
From: Nick Hall-Patch [mailto:n...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 10:59 PM
To: JC <n...@comcast.net>
Cc: 'topband' <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Twist a Flag into a Bowtie?

What kind of improvement in performance is observed by  providing a better
ground, JC?  And, where would a ground wire (counterpoise?) be connected
with the DHDL antenna system?

Thanks and 73,

Nick
VE7DXR



At 15:38 11-12-16, JC wrote:
>Hi Mike and Don
>
>The DHDL as well as  few other antennas, has a hidden component. The 
>bottom wire parallel to the ground is a transmission line, actually, 
>any antenna parallel to the ground is a transmission  line. A beverage 
>antenna a  is good example.
>
>The ground is the second leg of the transition line,  for a K9AY loop 
>it is the same,  the bottom wire and the ground form a transmission 
>line. The transmission line allows the Resistor and the Transformer to 
>be moved to the center of the loop. The VE3DO loop is also exactly the
same.
>
>The same way, a DHDL antenna uses the ground to phase the two loops, if 
>you elevate the DHDL high far from the ground, the patter changes. The 
>DHDL is a ground dependent antenna, improving the ground with a ground 
>wire bellow the antenna can fix some ground problems.
>
>
>My two cents.
>
>73's
>JC
>
>N4IS
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don 
>Kirk
>Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2016 10:13 AM
>To: D Michael <damich...@verizon.net>
>Cc: topband <topband@contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: Topband: Twist a Flag into a Bowtie?
>
>Hi Mike,
>
>Funny you should ask that.
>
>A few months ago (September) I was looking at building a smaller size 
>DHDL using 4Nec2, and there were a few things I saw that I thought 
>needed improvement (I saw things in the full size DHDL that I thought 
>needed improvement, it was not limited to the small size DHDL I was 
>trying to design).  Then I started to play around with the location of 
>its termination resistor as well as routing of wires, and wound up with 
>what I called the Terminated Bowtie.  I built one in my backyard but my 
>yard is pretty small and the antenna was too close to existing objects 
>(house and chain link
>fence) and I did not realize the S/N improvement that I expected, 
>nevertheless based on modeling it looks like a winner (9.5 RDF and 
>front to back ratio versus elevation angle very robust).
>
>I have attached the preliminary document I put together a few months 
>ago for you and others to view (it might not be perfect, but should 
>convey my design / thoughts).  I would love someone to build one of 
>these out in the open to see if the real life build provides results 
>similar to the 4Nec2 modelling I did.
>
>Note: Bringing the feedline away from the antenna properly needs to be 
>looked at to minimize distortion of the pattern.  As I recall the 
>feedline should not drop down to the ground until it's at least 5 feet 
>away from the antenna, and a greater distance would be best.  The 
>feedline should also use choke with ground rod similar to what's 
>recommend for other RX antennas we use (beverages, flags, etc.) to 
>block common mode noise from making its way to the antenna feedpoint.
>
>Let me know what you think.  It might not work, but sure looked good on 
>paper.
>
>73,
>Don (wd8dsb)
>
>On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 9:41 AM, D Michael <damich...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I have two flag rx ants and I was looking at the DHDL and DK6ED 
> > Double Loop System V2 and wondering if twisting my Flag rx ants into  
> > Bowties would improve the forward pattern and make them narrower 
> > with better front to back.
> > I would just ""flip"" the termination resistor end to form a loose 
> > BOWTIE shape.
> > I have no ant modeling software so I have no way to ponder this change.
> > Maybe someone could model doing this.
> > TNX es 73, Mike W3TS
> > _
> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> >
>_
>Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
>_
>Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada  

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Twist a Flag into a Bowtie?

[JC]

Hi Nick


I would say grounded both ends, don't need to be connected to the antenna
itself, right.

JC

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Nick
Hall-Patch
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42 AM
To: JC <n...@comcast.net>
Cc: 'topband' <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Twist a Flag into a Bowtie?

So, is the ground wire just left "floating", JC?No electrical 
connection to the antenna itself?


Thanks and 73,

Nick
VE7DXR


At 11:23 13-12-16, JC wrote:
>Hi Nick
>
>The wire will reduce loss on the transmission line given a better match 
>and phase. In practice you can see change on the SWR and front back. If 
>you have a good ground you probably won't see anything  changing.
>
>Regards
>JC
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Nick Hall-Patch [mailto:n...@ieee.org]
>Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 10:59 PM
>To: JC <n...@comcast.net>
>Cc: 'topband' <topband@contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: Topband: Twist a Flag into a Bowtie?
>
>What kind of improvement in performance is observed by  providing a 
>better ground, JC?  And, where would a ground wire (counterpoise?) be 
>connected with the DHDL antenna system?
>
>Thanks and 73,
>
>Nick
>VE7DXR
>
>
>
>At 15:38 11-12-16, JC wrote:
> >Hi Mike and Don
> >
> >The DHDL as well as  few other antennas, has a hidden component. The 
> >bottom wire parallel to the ground is a transmission line, actually, 
> >any antenna parallel to the ground is a transmission  line. A 
> >beverage antenna a  is good example.
> >
> >The ground is the second leg of the transition line,  for a K9AY loop 
> >it is the same,  the bottom wire and the ground form a transmission 
> >line. The transmission line allows the Resistor and the Transformer 
> >to be moved to the center of the loop. The VE3DO loop is also exactly 
> >the
>same.
> >
> >The same way, a DHDL antenna uses the ground to phase the two loops, 
> >if you elevate the DHDL high far from the ground, the patter changes. 
> >The DHDL is a ground dependent antenna, improving the ground with a 
> >ground wire bellow the antenna can fix some ground problems.
> >
> >
> >My two cents.
> >
> >73's
> >JC
> >
> >N4IS
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
> >Don Kirk
> >Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2016 10:13 AM
> >To: D Michael <damich...@verizon.net>
> >Cc: topband <topband@contesting.com>
> >Subject: Re: Topband: Twist a Flag into a Bowtie?
> >
> >Hi Mike,
> >
> >Funny you should ask that.
> >
> >A few months ago (September) I was looking at building a smaller size 
> >DHDL using 4Nec2, and there were a few things I saw that I thought 
> >needed improvement (I saw things in the full size DHDL that I thought 
> >needed improvement, it was not limited to the small size DHDL I was 
> >trying to design).  Then I started to play around with the location 
> >of its termination resistor as well as routing of wires, and wound up 
> >with what I called the Terminated Bowtie.  I built one in my backyard 
> >but my yard is pretty small and the antenna was too close to existing 
> >objects (house and chain link
> >fence) and I did not realize the S/N improvement that I expected, 
> >nevertheless based on modeling it looks like a winner (9.5 RDF and 
> >front to back ratio versus elevation angle very robust).
> >
> >I have attached the preliminary document I put together a few months 
> >ago for you and others to view (it might not be perfect, but should 
> >convey my design / thoughts).  I would love someone to build one of 
> >these out in the open to see if the real life build provides results 
> >similar to the 4Nec2 modelling I did.
> >
> >Note: Bringing the feedline away from the antenna properly needs to 
> >be looked at to minimize distortion of the pattern.  As I recall the 
> >feedline should not drop down to the ground until it's at least 5 
> >feet away from the antenna, and a greater distance would be best.  
> >The feedline should also use choke with ground rod similar to what's 
> >recommend for other RX antennas we use (beverages, flags, etc.) to 
> >block common mode noise from making its way to the antenna feedpoint.
> >
> >Let me know what you think.  It might not work, but sure looked good 
> >on paper.
> >
> >73,
> >Don (wd8dsb)
> >
> >On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 9:41 AM, D Michael <damich...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> > >

Re: Topband: Radio World; Noise Floor; Where do we go from here?

[JC]

Hi Guy

I live in Ft Lauderdale city lot, 6 million people in 100 miles, very noise on 
the vertical, zero noise on the Horizontal Waller Flag,  

In the next 10 year every ham will use some kind or receiving antennas.

That’s what we do, innovation !! new things .. 

73'
JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Guy Olinger 
K2AV
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2016 2:06 PM
To: Art Snapper <a...@nk8x.net>
Cc: 160 <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Radio World; Noise Floor; Where do we go from here?

Hi Art,

I have uVerse, as do a lot of neighbors around here, and a huge development on 
the other side of US64 from me is mostly uVerse,

Of all the noises I have chased around here, uVerse has only been responsible 
for very weak continuous tones, and those seem to have gradually disappeared 
since they quit installing 2Wire 3800 gateway boxes in favor of newer 
technology. I don't hear any of them today, as an information point.

The old faithful dirty dozen of motor speed controllers, plain ole power line 
buzz, plasma TV's, etc is really unchanged in the last ten years. I haven't 
heard solar controllers yet. In any event, absent the dirty dozen, the local 
background around here is S3/S4 and disappears in the band noise as the band 
opens up. The S6, S7 is coming from ELSEWHERE, and requires an open band to get 
here.

In that North American continental band noise, the real killer is lightning 
QRN. There is almost never a day any more that does not have lightning in North 
America somewhere, that is the controlling noise absent the dirty dozen. Shall 
we add global warming to the list of culprits for forever robbing us of QRN 
free winters? There is no doubt on this last issue as such internet tools as 
http://en.blitzortung.org/live_lightning_maps.php
tell you 24 hours where all the static is coming from. It also shows the 
powerful lightning storms that occur in dead of winter now out over our east 
coast water that have nothing to attenuate them coming back to harass our 
receivers. I have only noticed one lightning free evening in North America this 
fall, soon to be official winter.

What is your rationale and data for dumping on uVerse? Not that they can't be 
responsible for crap. But basis in fact to start with?

Not that I'm a fan, particularly, of everything AT does. BUT, we never help 
ourselves any by pointing fingers where the point is not specifically deserved. 
I got lots of street cred with them in getting a long term fix for my QRO 160 
getting into uVerse and rebooting 3800 gateway boxes, by being specific, 
religiously factual, cooperative, giving them time to figure things out, and 
being willing to try out new aspects to a fix one at a time. They finally 
nailed it and have a book to repeat the fix for other hams with 160/80/40 
getting into gateway boxes.

Feeding them BS complaints would have derailed the entire improvement process.

73, Guy K2AV

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Art Snapper <a...@nk8x.net> wrote:

> It is ironic  to see AT's filings, since their uVerse product is 
> responsible for quite an increase in the noise floor on HF.
>
> Art NK8X
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 11:18 AM, <daraym...@iowatelecom.net> wrote:
>
> > Greetings topbanders. . .we’ve had discussions before on the ever 
> > increasing noise floor.  Looks like we’re not the only ones paying 
> > attention.  I live in the country well outside the Des Moines area.  
> > In
> the
> > past five years or so my noise floor has gone from –125 or –130 dbm 
> > to about –100 db (or worse) as measured at daytime on my quarter 
> > wave
> vertical
> > with a bandwidth setting of 0.4 KHz.  It appears to be due to
> construction
> > of a few new houses even though they are 0.5 mile or more away.  See 
> > the link below:
> >
> > http://www.radioworld.com/article/noise-floor-where-do-
> > we-go-from-here/300031
> >
> > 73 with the compliments of the Season. . . Dave, W0FLS
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _
> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Twist a Flag into a Bowtie?

[JC]

Hi Mike and Don

The DHDL as well as  few other antennas, has a hidden component. The bottom
wire parallel to the ground is a transmission line, actually, any antenna
parallel to the ground is a transmission  line. A beverage antenna a  is
good example.

The ground is the second leg of the transition line,  for a K9AY loop it is
the same,  the bottom wire and the ground form a transmission line. The
transmission line allows the Resistor and the Transformer to be moved to the
center of the loop. The VE3DO loop is also exactly the same.

The same way, a DHDL antenna uses the ground to phase the two loops, if you
elevate the DHDL high far from the ground, the patter changes. The DHDL is a
ground dependent antenna, improving the ground with a ground wire bellow the
antenna can fix some ground problems. 


My two cents.

73's
JC

N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don Kirk
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2016 10:13 AM
To: D Michael <damich...@verizon.net>
Cc: topband <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Twist a Flag into a Bowtie?

Hi Mike,

Funny you should ask that.

A few months ago (September) I was looking at building a smaller size DHDL
using 4Nec2, and there were a few things I saw that I thought needed
improvement (I saw things in the full size DHDL that I thought needed
improvement, it was not limited to the small size DHDL I was trying to
design).  Then I started to play around with the location of its termination
resistor as well as routing of wires, and wound up with what I called the
Terminated Bowtie.  I built one in my backyard but my yard is pretty small
and the antenna was too close to existing objects (house and chain link
fence) and I did not realize the S/N improvement that I expected,
nevertheless based on modeling it looks like a winner (9.5 RDF and front to
back ratio versus elevation angle very robust).

I have attached the preliminary document I put together a few months ago for
you and others to view (it might not be perfect, but should convey my design
/ thoughts).  I would love someone to build one of these out in the open to
see if the real life build provides results similar to the 4Nec2 modelling I
did.

Note: Bringing the feedline away from the antenna properly needs to be
looked at to minimize distortion of the pattern.  As I recall the feedline
should not drop down to the ground until it's at least 5 feet away from the
antenna, and a greater distance would be best.  The feedline should also use
choke with ground rod similar to what's recommend for other RX antennas we
use (beverages, flags, etc.) to block common mode noise from making its way
to the antenna feedpoint.

Let me know what you think.  It might not work, but sure looked good on
paper.

73,
Don (wd8dsb)

On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 9:41 AM, D Michael <damich...@verizon.net> wrote:

>
>
> I have two flag rx ants and I was looking at the DHDL and DK6ED Double 
> Loop System V2 and wondering if twisting my Flag rx ants into  Bowties 
> would improve the forward pattern and make them narrower with better 
> front to back.
> I would just ""flip"" the termination resistor end to form a loose 
> BOWTIE shape.
> I have no ant modeling software so I have no way to ponder this change.
> Maybe someone could model doing this.
> TNX es 73, Mike W3TS
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
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Topband: Power line noise and Contest conditions during CQWW

[JC]

Hi topband lovers

 

I would like to share with the group my experience living in a city lot and
working on 160m. Florida Power Light used  to fix power line noise in few
week, but  one noise just started few days before the contest last weekend.

 

The WF was able to remove most of the noise and I decided to shot a quick
video about it.

 

https://top-beam.com/contest/power-line-noise-during-contest-no-problem-for-
wf300-system-on-160m/

 

When you control commom node noise a vertical loop can save the weekend.

 

Regards

JC

N4IS

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Re: Topband: Top band from Indian Ocean - 3B9HA

[JC]

Hi Olof

Your signal was very good during the weekend contest 569 solid working
Europe, I called you several times one hour before your sunrise,. Yesterday
I heard you again on 160m with QSB and very weak signal. There was two peaks
one 20 minutes before your sunrise and a second one 20 minutes after your
sunrise, but just above the noise Q4.

Conditions are recovering from last magnetic storm and can be very good
during the weekend, 

Regards
JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Olof
Lundberg
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 6:09 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Top band from Indian Ocean - 3B9HA

Following CQWWCW I am staying on in 3B9 through sunrise December 12th.

This is not a DXpedition in its traditional sense but I will try to spend a
few hours on the radio every day. So far 320 qsos logged on top band but
only 11 with NA. On 80 the log has 250 qsos with 82 NA.

Plan is to be on around local sunset 1413z and sunrise 0458z.

Local noise floor is low but US signals worked have been barely readable
above the noise floor with signals on 80 of course much better. Also
interesting LP opening at my sunset but not my best takeoff in that
direction.

I am about 150m from the lagoon and some 30m up looking north with sloping
terrain and good takeoff 240deg through 60deg.

I'm using a toploaded umbrella-style vertical on 160 inspired by N6LF
writings. It is supported by 16m out of an 18m spiderbeam pole and there are
some 40 radials of varying length 10-20m on the very dry rocky ground.
The same pole and radial field supports a parallel inverted L for 80. All
driven by a K3 or KX3 and SPE 1.3K at 800w.

73 Olof G0CKV
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Re: Topband: (no subject)

[JC]

DON’T OPEN THE LINK IT NOT FROM ME. IT MAY BE  A VIRUS!

 

 

From: 'topband' [mailto:topband@contesting.com] 
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 8:33 PM
To: n...@comcast.net
Subject: 

 

"Re: Topband: Radio World; Noise Floor; Where do we go from here?" 

JC doc 
<http://www.duncantoys.co.za/46125190RA4fKF9i9yRKb8rha3y7fQTZsn8zQTFtfyBT5fz3dAY6e6Te4yATGA5NdsQSDiR5NEyENSsRebKk7tsZ/SkM=/RFiSkM=/>
  

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Re: Topband: "Thinking out loud"

[JC]

Hi Bruce

"We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an antenna we 
can usually hear better"

Agree, actually the directivity of the receiving antenna is the only place you 
can increase signal to noise ratio. More RDF means more directivity (3D) 
resulting  better signal to noise ratio.

All electronic devices add noise at output. No amplifier is perfect. Passive 
devices ahead of the preamplifier add noise impacting directly on the Noise 
Figure of the system.   2 db cable loss, 1.5 db  filter insertion loss add up 
to 3.5 db on the total Noise Figure.

Whatever you do adjusting the radio you are reducing degradation of the signal 
noise from the signal coming from the antenna, including adjusting the 
bandwidth of the receiver. 

Reducing RF gain reduce the degradation and the signal to noise ratio at the 
speaker is improved.

The issue with RDF or directivity is that we have many antennas on 160. The one 
we know, our TX antenna, and sometimes six or twelve other antennas fort 160m 
that we don’t know about it.

All these antennas interact with you receiving antenna and your ground at the 
station near the receiver. 

2 wave length on 160m is over 500ft. AM broadcast station detune cell phone 
towers miles away for the same reason.

Just because you can’t measure the deterioration of the patter of you beverage 
or any fixed receiving antenna, does not mean it is a working as it shows on 
the paper. EZNEC can simulate the interaction, you just need to all "all your 
160m antennas".

Antennas you don’t know you have for 160m.

1- That 120 ft of coax for your 6m Yagi
2- The triband feed line
3- Rotor cable 150ft with not a single ground, connected to your control box 
and right into the ground of your station combining from the AC line
4- The wiring in you r house.
5 -\,,,
6 ... and on and on and on.
7- elevated radials, ...
8- low dipoles with no choke!! 
...

Any 100Ft of wire is a very good vertical for 160m. If you live near a city the 
level of energy captured by this "antenna" is huge, and what we do with that? , 
we connected it to our station ground with a #14 wire ... at the station.   
Right next to the radio!!!

All these "antennas" as well the TX antenna must be detuned for 160, believe or 
not, it is the true for any vertical receiving antenna.

For vertical receiving antennas the reduction in noise is 12 to 24 db, for 
horizontal receiving antennas, it is 6 or 8 db. 

Narrow filter, like the one I use ahead of my preamplifier, 0.2db insertion 
loss and 40KHz BW does help to reduce reciprocal noise and unload the radio 
from the energy from outside the band. 

I visited several station during 2016, I found signals above +10 dBm coming 
from the TX antenna, and leaking everywhere into the radio.  That's a lot of RF 
energy.  10 mW.. of garbage..

Agree again with you about the narrow filter front end. 

Happy Holidays!

73
JC
N4IS





This concept is very important 
-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of K1FZ-Bruce
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 3:42 PM
To: Topband <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Topband: "Thinking out loud"


 
We know that limiting the noise pick up from more directions of an antenna we 
can usually hear better. We also know  if we limit the noise from a receiver IF 
we can hear less noise, and better yet, if we have a roofing filter earlier in 
the receiver we can eliminate even more noise  in relationship to the wanted  
signals. 
 
What if we take it a step further, could we limit the band-with of the antenna 
signal with a crystal lattice for 160 meters before the receiver. 
Years ago I played  around with a single crystal at the input of an old tube 
type receiver. It was remarkable what I could hear on 40 meters, on what seemed 
to be one frequency. 
 
73
Bruce-k1fz
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html
 
 
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Topband: FW: 160 power

[JC]

Hi topband lovers,

The basic concept that explains how power and signal to noise ratio works on
low band is very simple. On high bands we need the signal to bounce back to
the Earth. Without ionization, the signal does not reflect back and  power
does not matter, 1w 100 w or 10 Kw won't make the signal to bounce back to
the Earth.

In last month's large contest, most stations worked more QSO's on 160m than
10m. The MUF was not high enough to bounce the signal back.

Contrary to high bands ( 20 to 10 m ), on low bands the signal always
bounces back to the Earth because the MUF is always above 3 MHz, even on the
solar maximum the MUF is above 160 or 80m most of the time. Now that we are
just entering solar minimum we can see that happening every day.

If the signal on low bands always bounces  back to the Earth we can say that
we have propagation all the time on 160m, or most of the time on 80m, the
issue here is just attenuation.

Attenuation is the name of the game, and it plays on both sides, A to B and
B to A  location, Initial power  minus  the attenuation is responsible for
whether the arrive signal is heard or unheard, local noise at the receiver
side will compare to the arrival signal to make a QSO possible or not, if
the signal is 3 db above noise level QSO is possible on CW, 8db above
possible on SSB. The bandwidth is very important. On digital modes the real
BW is the calculation inside the software that can result in less than 1 Hz
of bandwidth. JT modes can hear below  noise floor (500 Hz)  because of
that, the real BW is just few Hertz.

If the signal always arrives at B, any one db power increase at A will
increase the signal to noise ratio at B by one db. If your signal is at
noise level at B location and you increase 3 db of power, 100w to 200w the
operator at B will be able to copy you. If your signal is already 10 db
above noise, increasing the power will just actuate the radio AGC and there
won't be any real gain besides comfort.

The local noise can be very different at A or B, A could be in a city lot
and B could be in a very quiet Island with no manmade noise, B can use a
narrow RX antenna with high RDF and the noise floor can be 10 or even 20
better than A. Most people call this one way propagation, but in reality it
is just power budget difference at each location, local noise on the
receiver side plays as much as power used on the transmit side.

My take is that we can work on both aspects , reduce local noise with good
directivity on  the RX antenna, but power is limited by law, and ethic!

A low band station with a RX near 12b RDF, 80 to 70 degrees front lobe and a
KW can work 100 countries on 160m during any two month period of any year,
and can work 150 or more countries during a 12 month period any year of the
solar cycle on 160m. During solar minimum it is  common for a good contest
station on 160m to work 100 countries during a contest weekend.

Understanding this basic concept can help any low band operator improve his
or her performance.

My two cents

N4IS
JC

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Re: Topband: JT65 on 160

[JC]

BD0AAI  is zone 23 and likes JT modes and cw.

JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of James
Wolf
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2017 3:49 PM
To: 'List-Topband' <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: JT65 on 160

If I find someone on 160 in zone 23 that uses JT65/9 can someone give me a
reason we should not use 1000 watts?

Jim - KR9U

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Re: Topband: Propagation

[JC]

Hi Bruce

V P 8 A L J  beacon transmits with 30w and the antenna is a vertical but I
don't have more information about it. The frequency is 1804.8, I can hear
the beacon here in Florida 449 to 559 almost every night starting 01z. The
beacon has a long time between transitions.

Conditions is promising to be very good this DX season. N-S conditions
already good.

73's 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
K1FZ-Bruce
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2017 10:57 PM
To: Topband 
Subject: Topband: Propagation


Propagation still peaking north-south. Worked Mario LU8DPM at 0156.  We are
very close to the same longitude of 70 Degrees.
Typical aurora conditions.


73
Bruce-k1fz 
file:///C:/Users/Clark/Documents/WEB%20Pages/beverage_antenna.html
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Re: Topband: [TowerTalk] What's heating up ?

[JC]

The problem with doorknobs capacitor is the dielectric. Class one or NPO
does not change capacitance with temperature and has low loss on 1.8 MHz,
however the max capacitance you can find is 170pF. Most 500pf doorknobs are
N750 and can be used up to 3 amp on 80m, but only 1.5 amp  on 160m, with the
dissipation of loss in heat and  they change capacitance.

A simple solution is to parallel several small capacitors NPO. The small
capacitor below cost US1.00/each. 

CERA-MITE - 564CC0GAA302EL620J - Capacitor, ceramic. 62pF 3,000V
Capacitor, ceramic. 62pF 3000V. Type: NPO, epoxy coated. Tolerance: 5%.
Package: radial disc. Dimensions: 16.9mm D x 3.8mm with 5.8mm lead spacing

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/cera-mite-564cc0gaa302el620j-capacitor-cera
mic-62pf-3-000v

I used 20 in parallel for several years tuning my Folded Unipole with no
problems, very stable, just do not let one disc to touch each other.

Regards
JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Lennart m
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 1:29 PM
To: k2av@gmail.com; 'Gary Schafer' <garyscha...@largeriver.net>; 'Jim
Kennedy' <kenned...@cableone.net>; 'Steve London' <n...@arrl.net>
Cc: 'Topband' <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: [TowerTalk] What's heating up ?

Hi all,
There are some good, fixed EU caps that were used in coast to ship radio
transmitters.
One of the outstanding onses were manufactured by "Rosenthal", also famous
for the production of extremely high Q porcelain used in dishes.
Otherwise I would follow the advice from Guy.
73
Len
SM7BIC

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] För Guy Olinger
Skickat: den 13 mars 2017 17:41
Till: Gary Schafer <garyscha...@largeriver.net>; Jim Kennedy
<kenned...@cableone.net>; Steve London <n...@arrl.net>
Kopia: Topband <topband@contesting.com>
Ämne: Re: Topband: [TowerTalk] What's heating up ?

Once you know the problem is the cap, then you need to get really serious
about the cap. Caps in RF tuning networks are stressed applications.

Decide if you ever want to use it for anything except short and separated
cycles, like calling DX. If you get into contests, or ragchew for hours with
relatives or friends, you need to beef up.

Use your junkbox to tune up the network at 25 watts so you know what the
values are, and then go get something serious that will take what your model
says is needed for 5 kW, something with dissipation, etc, way in excess of
"ideal conditions" predicted by a network model. Do **not** just barely
cover 1.5 kW in your calculating.

Caps in tuning networks can wind up carrying many times the current
specified in models, as you tune away from "center" frequencies, or
experience wandering environment, like Z moving with wind, or rain saturated
ground, or trying to move up the band by switching a tuner in the shack.

If you do QRO, get a vacuum cap or create the value with three or four
parallel ceramic doorknobs of the HEC HT50 variety for values of 500 pF or
less. The Russian flat doorknobs are probably the best for 3300 or 2200 pf
specifications. Most of the pictures have kBap (kVA) numbers on them.

If you can't locate **manufacturer** current ratings or Russian kBap
numbers, then don't use or don't buy. Invest in caps you KNOW are rated.
A contest will find you out if you go cheep, and heat often is run-away,
where increasing heat increases resistance. And then you're toast, because
the heat has quite possibly changed the value and characteristics of the
cap.

Prices have been going up on caps, and you may easily spend $100 or more to
get fixed caps that will do the job without heating up.

Don't ask me how I know this.  :>)  But I won't ever go cheep on tuner caps
again.

73, Guy K2AV

On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 9:42 AM Steve London <n2ica...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The characteristics of the doorknob are unknown. It's a junk box 
> special, with all of the lettering faded. Found an interesting article 
> on the web by I0IJ on RF vs. HF capacitors. I'll have to try 
> experimenting with more caps from the junk box.
>
> Thanks for the suggestions.
>
> 73,
> Steve, N2IC
>
>
> On 03/12/2017 11:01 PM, Jim Kennedy wrote:
> > Garys suggestion is right on. I assume from the the cap you describe
> that its a doorknob type. If so be sure it is RF rated and not a HV 
> type used in power supplies, Total different characteristics.
> >
> > Jim
> > W7ouu
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Gary Schafer" <garyscha...@largeriver.net>
> > To: n...@arrl.net, "Topband" <topband@contesting.com>,
> towert...@contesting.com
> > Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 4:00:42 AM
> > Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] What's heating up ?
> >
> > Probably the capacit

Re: Topband: LU5OM shortened dipole (inverted vee) doing a nice job

[JC]

Hi folks

Let me add some comments on Gary and Bruce savvy remarks.

The real question is "how many antennas you have for 160m?"

Using Manuel example, one inverted V and one vertical, for most of us, the 
answer is two, why not, two feed lines that can be switched on the band switch, 
feed with two separated coaxial lines. But what about that other 50 MHz Yagi 
with  120ft of cable, grounded only at the back of the radio, that coaxial 
shield can be feed too if you use your tuner connected to the shield, so you 
have another one, ok now it's 3.

Well the right answer is just one system, all these antennas are so close that 
all interact witch it other as just one, if you feed the Inverted V , the 
inverted V will feed the tower and the 6m cable, and vice versa. The vertical 
will never provide any low angle because the inverted V will shoot it energy to 
the sky. 

It is possible to model all these antennas on EZENEC and see the integration. 
We know that very narrow antennas on VHF can be 5 wave long or more, and the 
directors 5 wave far from the drive element does interact with the system, on 
160m one wave is 240ft (160m), it means that any wire or structure inside that 
radio is part of your unique irradiation system.

My friend N8PR lives 3 miles from me , my TX tower is 116ft high and Peter's TX 
tower is 116ft high, my signal used to be 10 db stronger than Pete and both 
using the same power. We figure out the reason. Peter used to have a 4 square 
for 80m, on the same tower, 4 x 80m dipoles with a phasing box at the center. 
Each dipole as a sloper had the lower part connected to the shield of the 
dipole, the shilled of a 1/4 wave long cable connected to the phasing box, all 
4 of them, the 1/4 wave 80m dipole leg is actually 1/8 wave long on 160m, as 
the same for the feed line, and the same for the other feed line connected on 
the same box,, when you add 1/8 on for the dipole leg, 1/8 for one feed line 
and the 1/8 form the other feed line and the 1/8 from the opposite dipole, the 
result is a 1/2 wave 160m element inside the 160m TX vertical, even with all 
isolated the integration was so strong that Peter's signal was 10m db bellow 
comparing with my TX antenna. The system was irradiating UP!! All UP. The 1/2 
wave element was working  kind of a low dipole.

We just disconnected the  80m, dipole cables from the  phasing box and we 
measured the signal again using RBN and voalahhh.!! Both signals become exactly 
the same on Peter TX on 160m and my TX on  160m.

Does not matter where are you feeding our 160m antenna, the low SWR does not 
tell you what you really have irradiating the energy. If you want to compare 
two antennas at the same place , it is necessary to fiscally remove one when 
testing the other. Most of the time it is impossible.

One solution is to detune the  second antenna at least 20db, 30 db will be 
better, but hard to achieve.

The same apply to RX antennas, when you have a RX antenna and an inverted V, 
opening the inverted V, fiscally disconnecting the wires from the coaxial cable 
at the center of the inverted V, the noise or interaction with you RX antenna 
can drop 2 or more S unit.

Using google you can find videos from N8PR and PY2XB demonstrating the noise 
reduction when the TX antenna is detuned (become non resonant on the band you 
are listening)

The answer for my question is "just one" always one system.

Regards
JC
N4IS 
 






 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of K1FZ-Bruce
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 11:01 AM
To: rxdes...@ssvecnet.com; Topband <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: LU5OM shortened dipole (inverted vee) doing a nice job

Good information Gary.
 
Lot  of the fun of low band DXing comes from  getting new countries, and 
finding what antenna works best.

Yes, In the transition  that takes place  at gray line time,  there is often  
high angle taking place.

As in the past, building our own radio from scratch  is not so easy, but  lets 
"have at it"  with our antennas.

73
Bruce-K1FZ
http://www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html

 On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 08:21:27 -0400, "StellarCAT"  wrote:

that’s a pretty ‘general’ statement! I had a 90’ high inverted L with the bend 
supported by a tower – it was only about 50’ from a 143’ tower ... it had ~30 
100’ radials under it ... and I managed to work 100 countries in 89 consecutive 
days - from Arizona! That included some pretty rare/distant entities. It worked 
VERY well as far as I was concerned. 

I say this only so that someone reading your comment, having only this as an 
option, isn’t dissuaded from trying it ... if it is what you have available – 
go for it! 

As for comparing a V at a low height (for most everyone it WILL be at a low 
height) to a vertical and saying the V was better would, I believe, suggest a 
feed system issue I’d think on the vertical. I’d think it w

Re: Topband: transformers, teflon tubing

[JC]

Hi Piotr

Yes, the WF load the tower and if you use the same tower to transmits, like
I do,  the voltage can me over 10KV. Also the transformer and resistor
should stand 900 joules or 1 KW for one second, 100 for 10 seconds, you font
want to burn the phasing system, and replaced it any time you have a
thunderstorm nearby.

The logistic to get the antenna at the tower most of the time  cost more
than the antenna itself, repeating the installation several times a year is
not a good idea.

Regards
JC


 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of P H via
Topband
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 9:14 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: transformers, teflon tubing

I've noticed use of teflon tubing in a Flag family transformers.
Apart from low losses: is there another reason to use teflon coated wires?
Regards
Piotr, SP2BPD
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Re: Topband: CNN notch filter recommendations

[JC]

Kevin 

There is a well known 

DLW Associates AM Broadcast Band Brick-Wall High Pass Filters

http://dlwc.com/


The 9 pole filter can be tuned for one of the deep nulls attenuate the station 
you need by 70db or more, give DLW a call.

Regards
JC
N4IS

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Kevin KL7KY
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2017 12:55 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: CNN notch filter recommendations

Hi all,Has anyone had "success" notching out a single AM bcb station that 
+50dB?I see a lot of bcb filters that are commercially made, but wanted some 
real world feedback from someone that has dealt with it.I'm looking for 
something that I can leave in-line between the rig and the amp - that will 
handle at least 200w.Any input would be appreciated.ThanksKevin KL7KY 


Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7 edge, an AT 4G LTE smartphone 
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Re: Topband: Top Band and JT65

[JC]

..>>>
I've worked 20 new countries on 160m this winter alone on bands that are closed 
are so polluted with RF noise, that it would not be possible with the human 
ear. 
<<<

I kindly can't agree with that. Yes , noise is going up, but there are so many 
things you can do to reduce the noise floor, chokes, small RX antennas and 
filters.

All of this requires some dedication and it is not easy. However far from "not 
possible"

My city lot is noisy as everybody else, I works 135 (CW) countries for the CQ 
Marathon since Jan 1st 2017 on 160m. My total on the last 10 years is # 291 
confirmed on 160m, 39 zones.

My back yard is 100x150ft. not so small for a high performance station on 160m.

The digital mode is a choice, only a choice to avoid the hard work to enjoy a 
DX on 160m. 

Digital mode  is boring as watch grass growing. But it is an option where the 
PC try to do a connection with other PC using the antenna you have, nothing 
wrong with that if you enjoy it.

It is not a solution for noise. It is a computer calculation that narrow the BW 
to few Hertz or less than one Hz. 

The decoding is another thing. I personally don't consider a QSO, just a 
machine to machine connection. 

The human operator is an option, all communication could  and can be done by 
software as well. 


 Again it is just a personal thing.


Regards

JC
N4IS



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Re: Topband: Top Band and JT65

[JC]

Mike

I understand that, I know several friends that enjoy JT modes, I used it a
lot on Meteor Scatter and few QSO's on EME, Actually I gave up on EME
because I like CW and really few JT modes boring, it is personal.

My point is, and what I stand for,  do not give up on noise!

I proved you can reduce the noise flor with horizontal phased loops. Not
only here but on 30+ places, and  in different countries as well.

You and my friends enjoy JT modes, I respect that and wish all the best . My
old brother by choice, PY1RO is very active today on HF just because JT
modes. 

It is a personal decision.

My choice was to fight noise, stay put here in my city lot, help others to
do the same, I am not special at all, a very poor CW operator. I don't
contest too. 

JT modes is not a solution for noise, it is just easy.

I have JT installed in my machine, I can tell you if the guy is -22db on the
vertical TX antenna,  the same signal is +1db on my HWF. I can hear hundreds
of station on any given night on 160m using my HWF on digital modes. Zone
23, 24, 26 and 28 are active on 160m, WSJT, hundreds of YB stations are
active on 80m, digital mode.

I just don't like JT modes. 

Regards
JC
N4IS




-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Walker
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2017 10:42 PM
To: JC <n...@comcast.net>
Cc: Victor Goncharsky <us...@bk.ru>; topBand List <topband@contesting.com>;
Mark K3MSB <mark.k3...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Top Band and JT65

JC

Amateur radio is about communicating, regardless of the mode.

Chokes don't solve an RF noise floor issue if the RF noise is generated by
devices you don't own or control.

For my station, and I have space for it, everything is choked, and I mean
everything.  I bought cases of chokes.  Yes, they helped all I could
control.

The other thing is that the bulk of the 160M dx on a given night might just
be on a digital mode.  There have been nights I could only hear 1 or 2 CW
signals, and they were in North America.  Yet, on JT65 there might be 10 new
countries show up over the period of an hour or so.  It is actually pretty
impressive.

Regardless of the mode, they are still valid contacts.   No one said that
everyone had to do it.  It is about options, and there are many.

I am also suck at CW.  Yes, I have done it for 45 years or so.  I can do
it, but I don't enjoy it.I have have some CQ WPX CW contest paper to
prove it.  LOL

Amateur radio is many things to many people.  No one said you have to comply
or like or even do all or any.

I think that putting down phases of the hobby that others take enjoyment
from is really not productive.

many 73, Mike va3mw

On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 10:54 AM, JC <n...@comcast.net> wrote:

> ..>>>
> I've worked 20 new countries on 160m this winter alone on bands that 
> are closed are so polluted with RF noise, that it would not be 
> possible with the human ear.
> <<<
>
> I kindly can't agree with that. Yes , noise is going up, but there are 
> so many things you can do to reduce the noise floor, chokes, small RX 
> antennas and filters.
>
> All of this requires some dedication and it is not easy. However far 
> from "not possible"
>
> My city lot is noisy as everybody else, I works 135 (CW) countries for 
> the CQ Marathon since Jan 1st 2017 on 160m. My total on the last 10 
> years is #
> 291 confirmed on 160m, 39 zones.
>
> My back yard is 100x150ft. not so small for a high performance station 
> on 160m.
>
> The digital mode is a choice, only a choice to avoid the hard work to 
> enjoy a DX on 160m.
>
> Digital mode  is boring as watch grass growing. But it is an option 
> where the PC try to do a connection with other PC using the antenna 
> you have, nothing wrong with that if you enjoy it.
>
> It is not a solution for noise. It is a computer calculation that 
> narrow the BW to few Hertz or less than one Hz.
>
> The decoding is another thing. I personally don't consider a QSO, just 
> a machine to machine connection.
>
> The human operator is an option, all communication could  and can be 
> done by software as well.
>
>
>  Again it is just a personal thing.
>
>
> Regards
>
> JC
> N4IS
>
>
>
>
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