Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
I laughed when I saw these last three posts a while ago... you are absolutely right, but alas, it is too amusing to let go die yet...
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
Why are you beating this dead horse, and why are you name-dropping me? This is old news, we all know that Leah's allegations have no merit, and nothing new has happened related to it. I lost interest in it forever ago.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
"I don't think it fair to say that Leah is innocent. Even if she happens to be right about the reason, the way she deals with the situation and the way she communicates with people (her emails for example), that's not acceptable social behavior." @Mampir What about the way some of the folks responded to Leah? Is that acceptable social behavior? Why does it seem like you're giving them a pass? Shouldn't the way they communicate be called into question as well? I think so, especially the responses (and some of them have been in this forum) that focus on Leah's gender either by misgendering her or otherwise calling her gender into question. I think the organizations involved should investigate further and come to some resolution on this issue with Leah and the trans person in question BEFORE we conclude whether the way Leah and others communicated is acceptable social behavior. @Onpon4, what do you think?
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
Offtopic (crashing servers): If we crack Microsoft/NSA, we can destroy almost all non-free software on PCs. Then we can crash the Microsoft server and Windows will be almost destroyed. Maybe, the same with Google and Android.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
In regards to your first paragraph, nobody's servers should be crashed. We have no real evidence to either support or refute Leah's claims, firstly. There are good reasons to suspect one way or the other, but the victim hasn't come forward and all we have from the accused parties are a few stock-standard corporate responses from the FSF. Nothing of any substance either way. EVEN IF there were, though, the simple fact is that crashing servers will only hurt the software freedom community. If this were Google or some other super-high-traffic website, then your point might make sense (although I still don't believe crashing anyone's servers is ethical). But, in all reality, very few people will be inconvenienced by an outage on any one of these sites. It would just mean some people might not read what these websites have to offer. That's a reduced chance of somebody finding the path to ethical computing- and so both continuing to sacrifice their freedom and empower enemies of freedom with cash and users. As regards your second paragraph, Trisquel 8.0 will almost certainly be released at some point. The developer is time-poor currently, and so there is a long delay, but there's no inherent reason why that should break the project. I believe some changes should be made (using Debian as a base, in particular), but Trisquel is doing just fine. If the time delay is of concern, there are other free distros available and the option of donating time or money will always be available.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
How about you invest your energy in learning or doing something that may be of any real interest or pleasure?
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
Do we need to permanently crash and delete all files fprm Trisquel and FSF server? Or we can do this with Libreboot. The Trisquel 8.0 is never be released and Trisquel project will be broken?
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
Oh no doubt, I wish it wasn't true but sadly it must be. Hopefully someone or something will cause her to change otherwise libreboot may get forked in the future...
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
"I don't see what's wrong with asking if a baby is a boy or a girl." It's not "wrong", but when people ask that question they tend to assume that there is an either/ or answer (sometimes the true answer is "no"), and that the answer says something important about who that baby will grow up to be. In an ideal world it wouldn't, because, as you rightly point out, "gender is mostly a social construction." Again, I highly recommend this video as an introduction to the range of issues involved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJv1QWdofEE
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
I don't think it fair to say that Leah is innocent. Even if she happens to be right about the reason, the way she deals with the situation and the way she communicates with people (her emails for example), that's not acceptable social behavior.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
I don't see what's wrong with asking if a baby is a boy or a girl. However, toys should not be gendered. Lego for example is sometimes seen as a boys toy but it has always been advertised for both boys and girls (although they have had various "girly" ranges in recent years). Gendering toys is wrong because mostly it's sexist: it has been shown that girls get body image issues from an early age due to Disney Princess "girly" pink range. In reality, gender is mostly a social construction.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
You're probably thinking of some term ("cis-normative", I think?) that some
people use to complain that not being transgender or "queer" is seen as or
implied to be the normal thing. Things like asking if a baby is a boy or a
girl, or assuming that someone that looks like a boy likes boy toys, or
having different aisles for boys' toys and girls' toys.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
As far as we know, the person LR is claiming to advocate for does not want to be publicly named or drawn into this controversy. Could you please remove your doxxing comment mYself? If not, could the mods please do it?
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
Thanks for the spelling correction and the clarification on the use of cisgender. I think I have heard queer rights activists say "cis-normal" in informal speech, but you're probably right, in that this would defeat the point of "cisgender". Good to see people are paying close attention to the details.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
"I thought it was just "cis."" It's cisgender, or cis for short: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender Calling it "cis normal" implies that being cisgendered is normal and that (by extension) transgendered is not, so I don't think that's the right term to use.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
Do people really say "cys-normal?" I thought it was just "cis."
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
> […] harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe No, it was apparently her friend, Lisa Marie Maginnis, as pointed out at https://libreboot.org/contrib/.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
Worth reading : http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
"Ruben was named by LR as someone engaging in discrimination" Nope. Once again it's important to keep things in the context of what is being claimed. On https://libreboot.org/gnu/ Leah doesn't say exactly what each of the named people are claimed to have actually done, and just lumps everyone in together. But she does provide a clue in http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00053.html In particular where she says "...was being harassed by another employee who was transphobic. Her fellow co-worker sided with him..." Let's look at this: "...harassed by another employee..." Another. As is: One. And then: "...her fellow co-worker sided with him..." Given this we can say that this is Rubén because there are two sysadmins (going off the FSF's staff page) but only one Outreach and Communication Coordinator (Stephen.) So, "sided with him." There must have been an accusation or something in order for someone to "take a side." So, although she doesn't exactly say what was said and leaves that up to our imaginations, one *possible* explanation that would fit the claims that Leah has made and that would present everyone in the best possible light would be: 1. Stephen says something. Exactly what is not known. 2. The employee in question takes this as being some sort of transphobic statement or something. Whether or not it actually was or not or how it was intended we'll never know, since we do not know what was said nor the person's intent and will probably never know. 3. The employee raises it as an issue. Rubén takes Stephen's side, perhaps saying something like "Hold on, that's not what that means" or "That's not what Stephen meant." Or not his intent. Or whatever. And so now, "her fellow co-worker sided with him", as Leah has claimed. In closing, while we'll probably never know who actually said what and what they intended by saying it, this series of *possible* events does fit with what Leah is claiming given the available information, and we can imagine a possible scenario where it was a simple misunderstanding/miscommunication that escalated and went into overeaction and where Rubén is "guilty" of nothing more than trying to defuse the situation. And perhaps it really wasn't what Stephen meant. We'll probably never know. And remember that in no case has Leah Rowe actually accused Rubén himself of doing anything, only that he sided with the person that was supposedly doing it which, although we'll never probably never know exactly what was said, could have been nothing more than, as I said, trying to say that that wasn't what was meant in whatever it was that Stephen supposedly said.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
Don't feed the troll.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
I think it's also worth pointing out that although Ruben was named by LR as someone engaging in discrimination against a trans FSF employee, he was her co-worker at the FSF, not her employer, which was the FSF itself.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
Woah there mangeur de nuage, you have missed the point. Let me explain clearly: 1) a transgender person is a person who, for whatever reason, feels they are a different gender from the one that goes with their biological sex. A person whose gender identity and biological sex are the same is referred to as "cys-normal". 2) a transgender women, despite being born with a man's sexual organs (or sometimes intersex organs), feels that they are a woman, and prefers to be referred to using the female pronouns (in English: she, her etc). 3) referring to a transgender women using male pronouns (in English: he, him etc) is called "misgendering", and is as disrespectful as calling a cys-normal man "she" or "her". If you want to understand these issues and the science that goes with them, I highly recommend this lecture by Harriet Hall: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJv1QWdofEE As well as being just plain rude, mouthing off at and misgendering trans people is the last thing that will help de-escalate the LibreBoot situation.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
I can't after someone replies (made a screenshot), only a mod can (I think) (if mods wants to waist time go fore it I don't mind) LW is a man who consider itself has a woman, this concept is new to me and honestly, I don't care about it. I only care about work and free software, libreboot is under gpl that's what matters. The internet has given us a wonderful tool of anonymity between us, it has removed ridicules barriers. We have the chance to work with less bullshit. Why would a person want to say publicly this kind of private life and then ask everyone to not mention it, plus anyone can say anything that can't be verified. I could do the same thing and explain one of the horrible things that happened in my life and ask to never say x word because it makes me sad. But I don't. I have grown up and understood that I need to adapt to the world, to learn from it and it's not by putting more barriers with other people that I can achieve that, we can only achieve that by building bridges. In one way you can interpret what I say that I am making a barrier, by refusing to acknowledges is desires. And I'll shall respond that he is the one who imposes me that condition, sure it's not a specific hard condition but I could say that after the fiasco that he maid, he has lost all my respect and I'll shall not agree with him until he comes to reasons. And it's also an bad way of doing because it will ultimately make him agree and piss him off witch brings to nowhere. So what do we do ? Do I make the first move ? do you do it ? does he make it ? But why did this all happened in the first place ? Because someone wanted to identify to X and then someone else used it online to justify X. Do you think this is ethical ? using gender (or whatever) has a mean to shame and slander with no proof the FSF ? who only cares about everyones freedom ? and I'm only unfortunately adding oil to the fire because I just want to speak without bullshit. Do you think this is also normal that I have to think at the exact words to not offend someone ? This has bean discussed already discussed by Marshall B. Rosenberg in his very nice book "non-violent communication" I agree with most of the book but I can't stand the fact that I can't say a specific word without having a rain of shitstorm happening. Do you understand what I am trying to say. I don't what to be mean to people, because it's not my thing and it leads to nowhere. But when I (and others) wright something I don't want to have the trouble of adding unnecessary terms or changing them just because a small group of people will be sad. I think this is silly, it's tiring and it brings more problems that it solves (especially in the French language).
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
t3g calm down please :) You reaction is I think exaggerated. When you read what LW has wrote it's completely wrong from the beginning. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036.html You don't act like a child when this sort of thing happens you don't go all berserk and say "fuck you, fuck this and fuck the world". He is only burning bridges himself it's not the FSF fault. He hasn't given any proof of anything. We won't have more of any thing except if the said fired person desires to speak (private life seems to be at risk). https://twitter.com/ladyaeva/status/777203687596916736 He even ask for refund from all the donation he made to the FSF https://libreboot.org/gnu/ https://sealion.club/file/f226e8f2d46d1fb028136b01601e45dc0ec2eb2b6f7d4549d9c71e306349998b.png Like Abjectio posted RMS and the FSF has made is point. Everything is all finished nothing to see it was never because of discriminatory reasons.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
> He hasn't given any proof of anything. Leah is a woman. This is well known. Correct this please.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
And notice that the target was quietly changed. Originally libreboot.org/gnu claimed "a transgender employee at the FSF was being harassed" but here in this thread t3g has quietly turned that into Leah Rowe. Some facts: 1. Leah is not and has never been employed by the FSF. Their list of employees can be found at http://www.fsf.org/about/staff-and-board. Feel free to check the Internet Archive's Wayback machine for history to confirm. And so, the "transgender employee at the FSF was being harassed" could not have been Leah Rowe. 2. Leah has never made any claim that she herself was harassed by Rubén. From what we can tell, Leah made the decision to remove libreboot from the GNU Project because of this other person being supposedly being harassed in a show of solidarity, not because she herself was. It's important to keep things straight over what people claim and avoid mixing things around.
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
Ehhh t3g : Don't you believe these statements? http://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00052.html
Re: [Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
What are trying to achieve with this new thread? Pouring more oil into the fire? Shouldn't we first wait for the facts? The list of facts we have at hand so far is: - Libreboot left the GNU project - There are many wild accusations from many parties out there Anything else is just pure speculation. Why should the Trisquel project be shut down? Because of (so far unproven) accusations? I don't think so...
[Trisquel-users] If Rubén harassed Libreboot's Leah Rowe, he should be fired and Trisquel shut down
If Rubén is breaking any workplaces discriminatory laws, he should be gone and all funding should be pulled from Trisquel. In return, to send a message, the Trisquel project should be shut down as well. This could be a good thing as it will encourage another free software alternative to Ubuntu and get some fresh blood in the FLOSS scene. Rubén has broken promises and taken way too long to release Trisquel 8 and at this point, it may not happen. Especially if he is taken to court for harassing a transgender employee.
