In a message dated 4/21/2004 11:36:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Note that the New Living translation is just that, a translation, not a paraphrase. Do not confuse this with the Living Bible which was a paraphrase. I have listed a bunch of translations below:
Amen.
In a message dated 4/27/2004 8:05:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Bill wrote > When you insinuate that I have diminished faith or repentance, or the power of sin and death, or human depravity, David, you simply misunderstand me. These things are all real, profoundly rea
Bill: This post is a KEEPER! Lance
- Original Message -
From:
Wm. Taylor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: April 27, 2004 09:24
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Bill wrote
>When you insinuate that I have diminished
faith or repentance, or the power
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 11:50
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:45:33 -0400 "David
Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
<
then you r
ed here I will try to get
something out on Calvin, and my affinity to him. I'm going to call it a
night.
Bill
- Original Message -
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 1:45 PM
Subject: RE: [Trut
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:45:33 -0400 "David
Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
<
then you responded with faith, repentance,
obedience,
worship, confession, and
love..>>
did Bill say this, or, that
this occurred?
even so, what does it have to
do with [anyone's] salvation?
G ~
Bill wrote:
> When I say "us all" I mean us all -- all humanity,
> not just all Christians.
That's what I thought you meant! Wow!
Bill wrote:
> I'll tell you in a nutshell what has happened to me
> that has yet to happen to you. I have apprehended the
> effects of the Enlightenment upon my th
Sherrie wrote:
> Your reply to this appalls me.
Sorry.
Sherrie wrote:
> You say you think you can think of worse losses.
> I can't. I've lost a child.
Sorry. I did not mean to minimize such a loss, but only to point out
that there are worse things than a young child leaving us and going to
h
an eternal Hell. Perhaps that is what David thought.
Izzy
Sherrie, I believe/KNOW that your child is SO wonderfully with Jesus!!! Oh
that JOY!!!Izzy
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 6:39 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Hi David,
Below is the entire sentence Bill sent.
You
tion!"
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From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wm. Taylor
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004
3:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Wm. Taylor
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004
3:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvini
My friend lost a child and it was a horrible thing to get over. She now says that she thinks of it as her child is not in her past but is in her future! Laura
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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 9:35 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Bill,
Thank you.
OTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Hi David,
Below is the entire sentence Bill sent.
Your reply to this appalls me.
You say you think you can think of worse losses. I can't. I've lost a
child.
You say you are getting a little nervous when you hear such superlatives
being
throw
available.
http://www.giantcompany.com
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004
7:16 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
No, I am not
referring to you as a blithering idiot. That description i
to him the same thing his
successors did. We will misunderstand him, then distort his views beyond
recognition.
- Original Message -
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:04 AM
Subj
will misunderstand him, then distort his views beyond
recognition.
- Original Message -
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:04 AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Calvinism
> Bill wrote:> > I believe
: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
> Hi David,
> Below is the entire sentence Bill sent.
> Your reply to this appalls me.
> You say you think you can think of worse losses. I can't.
2, 2004 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
> Hi David,
> Below is the entire sentence Bill sent.
> Your reply to this appalls me.
> You say you think you can think of worse losses. I can't. I've lost a
child.
> You say you are getting a little nervous when you
Hi David,
Below is the entire sentence Bill sent.
Your reply to this appalls me.
You say you think you can think of worse losses. I cant. Ive lost a child.
You say you are getting a little nervous when you hear such superlatives being
thrown around.
You say such usually indicates excessive emo
sage -
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:04 AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
> Bill wrote:
> > I believe this passage does mean that all receive
> > the gift of life and that this gift is a
Bill wrote:
> I believe this passage does mean that all receive
> the gift of life and that this gift is automatically
> afforded to us all whether or not we put our trust
> and faith in Christ.
Wow! Bill, you sure do know how to shock me. I'm listening, but I'm on
the edge of my seat! This
n the lake
which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
- Original Message -----
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 9:01
PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Cal
which is the second death."
- Original Message -
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 9:01
PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Calvinism
> Jonathan wrote:> > The passage makes no sense if &
4/21, Judy:
>Actually progressive
sanctification should be considered normal Christian
living.
why?
G ~ P
235
Jonathan wrote:
> The passage makes no sense if 'many' is not 'all'
> which is why some translations use 'all' instead
> of 'many'. Please give us your exegesis on this
> passage on how the many when referring to Adam is
> all of us, and how the many when referring to Christ
> is just some of
Thanks to everyone who has commented on the many and all translation. I find the posts interesting and informative. Laura
Judy Taylor wrote:
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Judy Taylor wrote:
a) A covenant by nature requires the
death of both parties.
DAVEH: I'm lost on this one, Judy. Would you be so kind as to
explain
why you believe such, please?
jt: I may not have expres
Jonathan wrote:
> Hope you don't mind me answering your questions as well.
Of course not. Welcome to the party! :-)
Jonathan wrote:
> 1) I do not hold to Calvin's concept of Limit Atonement.
I figured that out by now. :-)
Jonathan wrote:
> 2) I do not believe in universalism, that
> all
Hughes Jonathan wrote:
Another verse you will want to consider is 1
Corinthians 15:22: (KJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ
shall all be made alive.
Here the King James Version uses the word 'all' and the concept of from
death to life. Would we now say that in A
TTers, I thought I might submit this work for your
consideration. It takes into view several of the topics of today's discussion:
Predestination, Limited Atonement, The One and The Many. Please enjoy. Bill
Taylor
Re-Thinking Calvin's Horrible Decree
(c) 1998 W.
Thomas Taylor
John Calvin und
Clifton
Sent: Wednesday, April
21, 2004
6:14 PM
To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Calvinism
Jonathan:
I was not placing my experience above scripture. I was saying that You
are wrong, wrong, wrong! Many does not mean all. Many does not even
mean a majority. Many does not mean
PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Hi Jonathan, Terry, and all,
In the NT when polloi (many) is used in
reference to the saving work of Jesus Christ (see Mrk 10.45; 14.24; Rom
5.19; Heb 9.28), the Semitic inclusive sense is to be understood, i.e. Jesus
died for all (cf
.
Calvin did not teach a limited atonement; it was formulated after his death.
My apologies.
Jonathan
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Hughes
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004
6:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Hi
mensely. Aren't you the eat-the-meat-and-spit-out-the-bones guy. Lighten up.
- Original Message -
From: Kevin Deegan
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Why do you like such a Filthy mouth like Bono?"Wm. Taylor" &l
experience of who you think
should be made right with God.
Jonathan
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004
6:14 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Jonathan:
I was not placing my experience
esday, April 21, 2004 4:25
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Why do you like such a Filthy mouth like Bono?"Wm. Taylor"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Peace, brother.
- Original Message -
From:
Kevin Deegan
To: [EMAI
Why do you like such a Filthy mouth like Bono?"Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Peace, brother.
- Original Message -
From: Kevin Deegan
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
OOH Now I understand.
Peace, brother.
- Original Message -
From:
Kevin
Deegan
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 4:16
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
OOH Now I understand.
HN "The Many"
It was so unclear till now.
Poor ol Holy Sp
verse. In other words, Judy (in speaking of omissions), it's not just those
precious babes who need to be careful which translation they trust. We all do.
Bill
- Original Message -----
From: Hughes Jonathan
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:13 PM
Subject: R
n Christ" will be made alive. Maybe we need to do a study on
being "in Christ" involves, that is, what it is and what it
isn't.
judyt
Jonathan
-----Original
Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent:
an
-Original
Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Terry
Clifton
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 4:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
I don'y care if we are talking about pears and cumquats.
All are not right with God. Look around you. You will see.
Terry
From:
Hughes Jonathan
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:13
PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Hi
Terry,
The
'many' when referring to Adam is definitely all. Therefore, the 'many'
when referring to Christ must also be
FYI
The known texts fall in to one of two groups, the Majority or AlexandrianThe "Majority text" is a statistical construct of the plurality of extant Greek manuscripts.
The Majority of which are of the Authorized version type text
Hughes Jonathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Note that the New L
The object is Jesus Christ. But it is He who gave His commands & doctrine in the Holy Scriptures.
Jesus is the Object
The Scriptures are the instruction book!"Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The doctrine doesn't have to hold me, Judy. The object of my faith is Jesus Christ. He is the on
Judy, maybe you should shop off your right hand.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 3:02
PM
Subject: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
He won't be holding us in that day unless we
have been obedient and ser
uses
the word 'all' and the concept of from death to life. Would we now say
that in Adam all died but only a few will be made alive in
Christ?
Jonathan
-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry
CliftonSent: Wednesday, April
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Terry
Clifton
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 2:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Hey Judy:
I checked three versions and that wording was not in any of them. I
see a giant gap between "MAN
The doctrine doesn't have to hold me, Judy. The
object of my faith is Jesus Christ. He is the one who will hold us both in
that day. After all, it is not faith which saves us, but he in whom we have
faith.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: [EMAIL PRO
No wonder the first Adam gets more credit - this is
where most professing Christians live and it is very evident on TT where DavidM
was ridiculed and all but stoned for daring to speak of Sanctification
which was then termed "Christian Perfection" in the subject
line.
Judy, just a point of
For
further information on the NLT see the following link (a rather interesting
article which is quote critical):
http://www.bible-researcher.com/nlt.html
At
first it was to be a correction on the old Living Bible. They then chose
to write a full translation (not a paraphrase).
Jonath
Judy, I still don't get it. Whose words are these?
"The Lord knows
those who are his and let everyone who names the name of the Lord claim by
faith in their doctrine that the atonement covers
their iniquity?" (see 2 Timothy 2:9).
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
Committe of Baptists? Sigh. Please see below. It was
done by far more than a Baptist Committe.
The NLT Translation Committee
The Tyndale House website assures the reader that "all of the
Bible scholars and stylists involved in this work are evangelicals who accept
the Bible as the inspi
Hi
Terry,
The
'many' when referring to Adam is definitely all. Therefore, the 'many'
when referring to Christ must also be all. Otherwise we are playing with
apples and oranges. I am sure you would disagree if I said that many (but
not all, just some) became sinners through Adam. The
Hey Judy:
I checked three versions and that wording was not in any of them. I
see a giant gap between "MANY" and "ALL". One word change changes the
whole message.
Thanks for telling me where he got his info, 'Cause I knew it wasn't in
my Bibles.
Terry
Judy Taylor wrote:
Terry
27;s sentence.
Jonathan Hughes
Supervisor of Application Support
Kingsway Financial
905-629-7888 x. 2471
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Terry
Clifton
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hey Judy, what have I missed? From where does this
quote originate: "The Lord
knows those who are his and let everyone who names the name of the Lord claim
by faith in their doctrine that the atonement covers
their iniquity?" (see 2 Timothy 2:9).
Bill
- Original Message -
Fr
Note
that the New Living translation is just that, a translation, not a
paraphrase. Do not confuse this with the Living Bible which was a
paraphrase. I have listed a bunch of translations
below:
The
KJV (far from a "majority text" in our day and age) is as
follows:
12
\o/ !HALALU Yah!
\o/
Greetings Jonathan et al in the Matchless Name of YahShua
!
- Original Message -
From: Hughes Jonathan
Sent: 04/21/2004 12:49 PM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
This
is not my sentence. This is a direct quote from Romans. This is
Paul's sen
Hi
Terry,
This
is not my sentence. This is a direct quote from Romans. This is
Paul's sentence.
Jonathan Hughes Supervisor of Application Support Kingsway Financial 905-629-7888
x. 2471
-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terr
Jonathan Hughes wrote:
Yes, Adam’s
one sin brought condemnation upon everyone, but Christ’s one act of
righteousness makes all people right in God’s sight and gives them life.
You are making no sense to me whatsoever.
All people are not
right in God's sight. Most of
g misrepresented!
I wish I could write more but I really must get back to work.
Peace and joy,
Jonathan Hughes
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 9:05 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthT
but
everything that is included in the first Adam is taken up and made righteous in
the Second.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Jonathan Hughes
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 6:34
AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Hi
Judy,
Lance wrote:
> No person from the first to the last is excluded
> from that which is accomplished in the second Adam,
> Jesus. Some have referred to this as a "double movement":
> God toward man and man toward God. Both take place
> in the God/Man.
I don't think I have much of a problem with t
Two thumbs up!
- Original Message -
From:
Jonathan Hughes
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 6:34
AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Hi
Judy,
Please consider the
following quotes:
When Adam sinned, sin
entered
Hi Judy,
Please consider the following quotes:
When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire
human race. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone,
for everyone sinned. Yes, people sinned even before the law was given.
And though there was no law to break, since it had not
On Izzy's question re: good books, can you list
your favorites over the last couple of years? Who and what do you read?
Blessings, Lance
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: April 21, 2004 07:02
Subject: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
No person from the first to the last is excluded
from that which is accomplished in the second Adam, Jesus. Some have referred to
this as a "double movement" : God toward man and man toward God.Both take place
in the God/Man.You two (DM & JT) perhaps along with others on TT are saying:
This
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:31:13 -0400 "David
Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:I believe that Jesus .. reveal[s] ..the
nature of God concerning how he administers forgiveness.
But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law
muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.."
[JC re
Lance wrote:
> God's forgiveness ... is unconditional
I agree with the idea that God could forgive unconditionally if he
wanted to. In other words, God has the power and ability to forgive
unconditionally. The real question is whether or not He does. I do not
think he does. I believe that Jesu
In a message dated 4/20/2004 8:35:43 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Jonathan Hughes wrote:
Hi Terry,
Why would something that only God can give (forgiveness) be dependent on something humans can only give (repentance)? Why make God dependent and restricted by humanki
Terry, You’re SO right on! J Izzy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 7:35
AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Jonathan Hughes wrote:
Hi Terry,
Why would something that
Judy Taylor wrote:
a) A covenant by nature requires the death
of both parties.
DAVEH: I'm lost on this one, Judy. Would you be so kind as to explain
why you believe such, please?
--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you
Jonathan Hughes wrote:
Hi Terry,
Why would
something that only God can give
(forgiveness) be dependent on something humans can only give
(repentance)? Why make God dependent and restricted by humankind?
God is overly capable of forgiving without repentance. If we say
oth
Terry Clifton
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 8:21
AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
Lance Muir wrote:
God's covenant, through Abraham (with all of HK) is
indeed unilateral (not bilateral). God's forgiveness & love through the
Incarnate, obedient Isra
Lance Muir wrote:
God's covenant, through Abraham
(with all of HK) is indeed unilateral (not bilateral). God's
forgiveness & love through the Incarnate, obedient Israelite Jesus
is unconditional and inclusiveness (not exclusive).These (F&L)
preceed repentance.
-
God's covenant, through Abraham (with all of HK) is
indeed unilateral (not bilateral). God's forgiveness & love through the
Incarnate, obedient Israelite Jesus is unconditional and inclusiveness (not
exclusive).These (F&L) preceed repentance. Though I have several times
found myself consigne
9, 2004 15:07
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Calvinism
David Miller wrote:
Lance wrote:
... I appreciate Calvin. He is, I believe, one of
Christianity's important men of God. Have you read
him? Do you "know" the content of his work? If you
do please substantiate your apparent
David Miller wrote:
Lance wrote:
... I appreciate Calvin. He is, I believe, one of
Christianity's important men of God. Have you read
him? Do you "know" the content of his work? If you
do please substantiate your apparent dislike of
him/his work. If you don't then please refrai
In a message dated 4/19/2004 12:40:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Under Calvinism, man has no power to do what is right or to do what is
wrong. Under Calvinism, man is what God has made him. It is a form of
fatalism that has no place in the life of a believer who would s
David: (Genuinely) Thanks for the response on Judy's & your behalf. Though a
rather gross charicature of JC it is yet a widely held understanding of his
views. No, I wouldn't wish to engage in a protracted discussion at this
time. I await replies on earlier matters from you. Thereafter, perhaps.
Bl
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 12:40:27 -0400 "David
Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:>I meant to give you some actual quotes that
bother me,
>but the phone is ringing
...
who's on the line, Izzy's
cat?
G ~ P
235
DAVEH wrote:
> Wow!!! So whether or not (as Kevin is questioning) Jeff
> understood the pastor's reply correctly, there are actually
> Christians who believe God created people specifically
> to burn in hell to glorify Him. (Have I got that right,
> DavidM?)
Yes, that is correct. The Calvi
David Miller wrote:
> DAVEH wrote:
> > I may be misunderstanding you, Dean.Are you saying
> > God created mortal beings specifically for the purpose
> > of being burned in hell to glorify Himself??? That
> > to me seems to portray him as a dictatorial tyrant,
> > and I would find it hard to
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