comments below
-- Original message -- From: Judith H Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 12:13:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I have been a little surprised at the resistance of some to the idea that God is obligated to a particular course of acti
Sorry, Dean, but you lost me on this one. I understand what you said. I do not understand why you said it -- given the apparent context into which your comments are placed.
I guess I should say, you're welcome !!
jd
- Original Message -
From: Lance Muir
To: TruthTal
First, I will fashion a response to your question, but later today -- just to be fair to the response.
Secondly, in response to the notion that God's nature of God obligates Him to specific activity, you give me a discussion on the fact that God resists sin. You obviously see in my thinki
I take it that you disagree with what I said !!?? :-)
Let me try it again. God = the inter-personal relatingship of the Father, Son and Spirit. Part of this "immanent domain" is love as in "God is love" ... an observation of His ontology. If "love" is an action expressed towards oth
Creation can therefore be a loving extension of this Holy Communion, illustrative of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit's desire to bring others into the mutual indwelling which IS his eternal nature.
And one more thing where you say "creation can therefore be ..," I would say "creation is
We have gone from "horsepucky" [a most disgusting consideration] to Oh. ...Never mind. If there is more to say -- I am listening. You know that, right?
Debbie Sawczak was concerned about my use of "obligated" in its various forms, fearing a stumbling block scenario. Obviously, I h
--- to be righteous is to keep God's law. cd
Romans 3:28 tells us that to be righteous is to be justified by a faith that is substituted for our right actions. How does that square with your statement above?
Romans 4: 14 tells us " for if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is m
--- to be righteous is to keep God's law. cd
Romans 3:28 tells us that to be righteous is to be justified by a faith that is substituted for our right actions. How does that square with your statement above?
Romans 4: 14 tells us " for if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is m
We are saved by faith in exchanged for [personal] righteous (Romans 3:28).
who's faith .. ours or someone elses?
" .in whom we approach God with boldness and confidence through the faithfulness of him (cf. Eph 3.12).
There isn't a weak link in that chain that provides salvation. C
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/5/2006 2:29:57 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] An open letter to Dean -- jd
--- to be righteous is to keep God's law. cd
Romans 3:28 tells us that to be righteous is to be justified
--- to be righteous is to keep God's law. Christ makes us righteous by grace to cleanse our lawlessness- cd
***cd: I added some of what I original wrote above as I feel you are taking my words out of context John.Please don't do that again.***
First, what are you talking about?
Se
Huh. Apparently I wrote that damn "open letter to Dean" a few hours too soon.
Thanks for being honest.
Talk to you later.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cd:Respectfully John- I agree with this but we are speaking about a
Actually, the subject line is a little misleading but that seems to be what we do here best.
Anyway, the T.V. hit series, Lost, just might be a spiritual tale about Purgatory.
Most of my Catholic friends think this is the case.
A little over 90% of all $100 bills in circulation in thi
sometimes hard to believe, my friend. Good thing fellowship is not left up to fellows like me (at times.)
jd
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
fellowship, in Christ, is already eternal, a key doctrinal essential
On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 22:50:51 +
Never thought of it from that angle. An absolutely excellent point.
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
..foundational to our eternal security
On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 21:12:12 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
fellowship, in Christ, is already eternal, a key
Yes. One can't detract from our salvation and the Other won't !!
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
isn't it interesting, such fellowship's both human & divine?
On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 05:10:25 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Never thought of it from that an
My first wife is the only who comes to mind.
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
do you know anyone who has been temporarily involved in fellowship with God?
On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 05:23:51 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Yes. One can't detract from our
Well -- me. Three churches and one seminary. I decided to do something vocationally different after awhile !!
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
..how about permanently involved with JC, then excommunicated?
On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 22:30:01 -0700 [EMAIL PROT
And you know what -- I am still involved with JC ..
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Well -- me. Three churches and one seminary. I decided to do something vocationally different after awhile !!
-- Original message -- From: [E
Commandment keeping in I John is given definition several times within that lbrief epistle: love God and the brethren. Righteousness does not come by the law. We only "work our our salvation" because it is God at work in us both to will and to work. Our personal righteousness cannot accompli
Thanks for the waste of time
jd
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/5/2006 5:46:21 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] An open letter to Dean -- jd
---. to be righteous is to keep God's law - Christ makes us righteous by
I share this from the pen of another:
has anyone here read the > corrie ten boom story? there is one point in the story where she is in the nazi > concentration camp and she is talking about the infestation of fleas and how > miserable the fleas were, biting everybody. they also had smuggled s
Amen to all that the Canadian Pastor has said.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
DH/CD: DH engaged in an exchange with Iz to which CD took exception BIG TIME. Threats were actually made. I saw it as much ado about nothing. DH did not m
An interesting historical summary.
jd
From: "Joe Gill" [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > If you were taught (as many Pentecostalists are) that the Spirit's history in the modern church started at Azusa Street, you were, to be blunt, taught very wrong. Pentecostalism had a history before Azusa, just
True growth requires walking in holiness. DM
Is this "holiness" always apparent to others?
jd
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Lance, Dean's prayer for more patience is not any point for your perspective. Asking for MORE patience
A great proof-text, Dean. Maybe your salvation is based upon what you do, but mine is definitely not. There are those who will be judged by what they do -- that is for sure, BUT not all of us will be so judged.
I John 1:7 tells us this: If we walk in the Light two things happen - we
You have done two things with this post. First, you have made it clear that we are no longer discussing anything -- accusing those who do not agree with you as calling Christ a liar - a lie in and of itself!!!
Secondly, because of your predilection to works and your
In Gal 3:26-27, the attire is Jesus. Why do you ask?
jd
-- Original message -- From: Judith H Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
What would you call "the garments of salvation" JD?
I would say this is the attire you must arrive at the wedding feast in - that is, if you exp
Your tone was not my objection.
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: Dean Moore
Sent: 2/5/2006 5:50:53 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness (jd 2 cd)
Huh. Apparently I wrote that damn "open letter to Dea
Dean, are you not aware that most are disfellowshipped because of what they think and not what they do?
jd
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cd writes:
those who walk in Holiness-why would they be excommunicated?
||
1Jo 1:6 If we say that
Darkness , in this passage, is NOT sin, Dean because "sin" in this passage is something you possess and to deny this makes you a liar -- verse 8 of I John 1 tells us this.
I gve you an exegetical preview and you give me your static opinion with no regard to the exegetical. Obviously
In I John 1:6-8 , neither "darkness" nor "light " is a reference to sin or the lack thereof. There is a second post coming through. I thought I mailed it but somehow, it wound up in the subject bar of Yahoo search !!! Go figure.
jd
- Original Message -
From:
To: Trut
lol. I am in the twilight zone, out here in California. INo one is going to believe what happened as relates to my posts.
Suffice it to say that I will the two posts again. Disregard this thing.
jd
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Darkness , in
. That isa great proof-text, Dean [referring to I John 1:6]. Maybe your salvation is based upon what you do, but mine is definitely not. There are those who will be judged by what they do -- that is for sure, BUT not all of us will be so judged.
I John 1:7 tells us this: If we
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Darkness , in this passage, is NOT sin, Dean because "sin" in this passage is something you possess and to deny this makes you a liar -- verse 8 of I John 1 tells us this.
I gave you an exegetical preview and
Who said anything about wedding garments?
But here is what the text says " -- as many of you as have been immersed into Christ have put on Christ."
-- Original message -- From: Judith H Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I don't think so JD
Gal 3:26,27 "being baptized into
Why have you changed subjects? Do you agree that Paul speaks of being clothed with Christ as we immerse ourselves into Him? I actually do not think the Gal passage is speaking of water baptism except as it symbolizes our immersion into Christ.
jd
-- Original message --
Actually, Dean, I have no reason to talk to someone who claims I make Jesus a liar. You can go straight to if you think that such opens my heart to what you have to say.
Obviously, this moderator thing went to your head.
You deceived me into thinking that we were having a dialogue.
Yes, and if she will send me her address, I will mail her a beautiful set of towels !!
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"all they have done is gotten wet" Judith H Taylor: You have one great, if unintentional, sense of humour.
-
Thanks for this, G !!! Gives me something to think about when I get back from dinner. What is the source? Looks like something I need to add to collection of books.
jd
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"By identifying YHWH as both the creator of the
I will add this poetic pastoral note: one is no more in the dark than when his eyes are closed.
Book release in July !!
jd
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
..ftr, 'perhaps '[one's] own priorities (dead set on contra-biblical concerns)' qualifies
Something of interest for the student disciple:
http://www.thepaulpage.com/Summary.html
jd
And, yet, you have ignored most of the biblical arguments sent your way. If I have not addressed a truly biblical consideration, repost. Just keep in mind that your surmisings and "logical" deductions are not necessarily a function of truth.
And, Dean, if you cannot preach hope and salvati
Are you going to stop insisting that I call Jesus a liar?
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
John stop implying that others should go to hell by stating"You can go straight..." and keep your discussions on a non-personal level. This is
By the way -- this is your first warning to me.
-- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
John stop implying that others should go to hell by stating"You can go straight..." and keep your discussions on a non-personal level. This is the second w
And what am I allowed to say in response to this drival:
I realize you are going to take this hard but out of caring for your souls I will continue on by saying you do not teach/preach the Christian Gospel.
Please enlighten us.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Taylo
And he says he has no sin is a liar - I John 1:8
- Original Message -
From: Lance Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/7/2006 6:48:49 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness (jd 2 cd)
"words Christ spoke", "words Bible says" = TRUTH ?? ACTUALLY Dean, it is the int
I am not challenging your orders to me as a moderator.
I am addressing you as a member of TT who took the time to insist that I called my Lord a liar. Are you going to continue accusing me of speaking evil of Christ? I think this to be a fair question.
jd
-- Original m
Dean says this:
a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
This next passage
But the text says "Let us make man(kind) in our image, MALE AND FEMALE created He them."
jd
- Original Message -
From: Lance Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/7/2006 8:52:54 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God Male?
CLARIFICATION PLEASE, DEAN: Are you saying (meaning) th
This time it is John, not Lance, Dean. And verse 8 is in the PRESENT TENSE, not the past. "If you say YOU ARE HAVING not sin, you are a liar. "
And in very 7, the blood of Christ "keeps on cleansing." Present time or past?
And the Heberw writer speaks of the sacrifice FOR SIN to be
Then don't complain when I defend my self or accuse you of same.
John
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/7/2006 8:27:39 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dean the man
I am not challenging your orders to me as a moderator.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Lance wrote:Yes Dean, they do. And that MEANING would be..?
cd: You are asking for my interpretation but to do so could take from or add to the words Christ gave and I am m
So your logic trumps Gen 1:27 " So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created he him; MALE AND FEMALE created He them." Is there something about this you disagree with? Do you not know that the word for "man" is better translated "mankind?"
jd
- Origin
-- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
- Original Message -
From: Debbie Sawczak
To: 'Lance Muir'
Sent: February 07, 2006 10:25
Subject: what they are doing
ironically, is creating God in Adam's image.
D
--No virus found in t
I have preached this for years, Dean No one I know is the lest bit confused. Apparently you think that you have to keep all 613 of the commandments and I think that such a claim is afalse gospel.
Your message is not Good News to anyone who is a sinner and Christ died for that sinner -
I pastored a church in the north state. We brought in a "guest" speaker and I asked that he housed with a particular family. They were poor folk but neat and clean. Very involved in the work of the church. But she refused to open her doors to this minister and his wife !! After some dis
We have been told again and again that all we have to do is read the text -- forget about interpretations; that interpretations are no more than someone adding to the Word. So, here is "law." We are to obey the "law" or go to hell (ps, sorry) . So which is it, Judy. Do we interpret or
And to think that we here on TT own most of the rough draft !!
-- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From 'Henny Youngman's Giant Book of Jokes' "Take My God, Please" (co-authored by Judith H Taylor and Dean Moore).
- Original Message --
David writes: But if we walk in the light AS HE IS IN THE LIGHT (walk as Jesus Christ himself walked... without sinning), we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin (not SINS, but SIN, the condition in which we find ourselves).
John respon
And I think this comment to be juxtaposed to Gary's: if you pursue something that is greater than yourself, when you "catch" it, it consumes you !!
I in you, you in me, they in us !! In this consumption, there is a blurr for some between relationship and blessing. Mr G explains the di
Suppose, if you will, that the Ist letter of John is couched in the gnostic controversy. Is it possible that God chose the words for this letter (providentially speaking , of course) with such forethought as to find this letter having application for all time -- that these words hav
Dean -- are you going to micro-manage all our discussions? I am interested in Lances point of view on this and want to see more - from Lance and DM an DH.
DM -- is this the purpose of the Moderator - to micro-manage our discussion and decide when a particualr discussion needs to "move a
We don't accept Webster for Greek definition. Let's get that right.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
FWIW Bill, I'd suggest that we leave Dean, DM, JT and perhaps even DH, to Amen one another on this issue. You are correct that the
Keep on ignoring Gen 1:27 , Dean.
There is no sex with God. He is neither male or female in a sexual sort of way. And why is the masculine used? Ever heard of "cultural demands?" Since God is not an "it," since He is a person, we must use either maculine or feminine. The culture of
Filthy illustration .
jd
- Original Message -
From: Lance Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/8/2006 11:34:58 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness (jd 2 cd)
Originality not being your strong suit Dean, you are to be commended on parroting Judy's perpetual jibe. As
hEY, dEAN,
- Original Message -
From: Lance Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/8/2006 11:55:37 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God female?
IFO would leave the discussion right there (full stop). Bill may do whatever he wishes.
cd:I agree with you Lance. If I we
hEY,
- Original Message -
From: Lance Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/8/2006 11:55:37 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God female?
IFO would leave the discussion right there (full stop). Bill may do whatever he wishes.
cd:I agree with you Lance. If I were him
hEY, dEAN,
- Original Message -
From: Lance Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/8/2006 11:55:37 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God female?
IFO would leave the discussion right there (full stop). Bill may do whatever he wishes.
cd:I agree with you Lance. If I wer
Hey, Dean, why don't you try to find the answer to this deeply theological question in Adam Clark. I have read more theology than you have read comic books, and I have never seen this ridicualous discussion entertained. This is simply bizarre - bordering on blasphemy.
Hello DavH O' buddy how are you today-aren't you glad our God isn't feminine so the earth won't be flooded once a month
You all must be so proud. I mean, how intellectual can one get? Perhaps this is an example of things to come around here (?) I hope not.
jd
cd: This makes no sense at all to me John-The culture decided what God is?Can they now decide he is a women? What if they decide He is a calf?
Good move, Dean !!! Don't deal with the arugment presentedclaiming ignorace of my intent. And what faith should I have in further explanation in
John I am speaking in English-The Bible I am using is in English. Is yours cd
Hope. My study bibles are all greek, Dean. You know what that is, don't you? The same language of first century writers -- Greek !!
If you think a translation by the hands of a bunch of ex-RCC types
Your question concerning me is disingenuous at best. We have had several off line exhanges in which I made clear the issue. Your question in the public forum reveals a lot about your character as relates to your sense of integrity.
jd
- Original Message -
From: David
I wrote no more irresponsiblby than you when speaking of Bonhoeffer or Dean when prestending to know of Karl Barth. There is not a wit's worth of difference. Plus, I thought the very style of my response might seem familiar to Dean - a style he uses quite often.
Your quote, by the way ,
The culture gave us the language of a masculine God, David. I am surprised you made the same intellectual mistake as Dean.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Dean rightly understood that your premise was that the Jewish CULTURE > a
Did he write a greek lexicon??
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > JD wrote: > > We don't accept Webster for Greek definition. > > Let's get that right. > > Why not? Noah Webster was a much better Greek scholar than you, John. > Webster mas
Of course they should.
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Everyone has their own moderating style. Let's give Dean a chance and see what he does with the list. Nothing is wrong with him encouraging threads that are profitable and d
Once again, this time it is John, not Lance !! Using your example below, do you know the difference between the Hebrew text and the English translation of that text? God "inspired" the Hebrew text, Dean, not the English translation of that text.
That is clearly and obvioiusly what I am
I do not fully agree with this piece, but it brought to my mind the reminder that maturity and maturing result in a reduction in the number of right and wrong choices.
When we speak of the freedom FROM choice, how much of the above has to do with this evolution?
jd
i believe tha
Were you asking a question or just making one of your cute little comments?
You are right about one thing - all you have is "just your thinking." You certainly don't have ANY scripture.
If versions are "inspired," they all are and in whatever language.
jd
- Original Messa
I know that DH can more than hold his own with Dean, but allow me. I Pet 1:17 addresses the impartiality of God, not the equality of man.
jd
-- Original message -- From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Here is a clearer verse DavH:
1Pe 1:17DAVEH: If that's you
David, your comment below is but the first of several paragraphs addressed to me in your effort to defend perfectionism as you understand it. I am going to give my response some serous thought.
But I do want to address this paragraph before leaving -- something I can do without having to
What does pistis mean?
-- Original message -- From: Judith H Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
WRONG!!! JDS - God inspired all of it; the Holy Spirit did not expire after Moses penned the
Pentateuch and God is a FATHER all the way through the Bible. Father in Hebrew means Fathe
I thought Dean was saying that all men are born equal. That, of course, is not true. Some are way more stupid than others, growing up without understanding nor the ability to comprehend the deeper things of life. God loves them all, of course, but that does not make then "equal."
jd
-
To argue that God's grace applies to all is not the same thing as saying that all "were born equal." Perhaps the difference between the two of you , on this point, is due to an equality from birth !!
Dean cannot give you a scripture for obvious reasons.
jd
-- Original messa
a great paragraph of thought, for a number of reasons. The very last thought expressed, is a good example. One simply cannot understand the Christ without understanding Israel.
jd
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"By identifying YHWH as both the cre
No. And I thought you said that all men were BORN equal. And I Pet 1:17 is still talking about the impartiality of God not the equality of man.
- Original Message -
From: Dave Hansen
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/9/2006 12:37:58 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Interestin
So Judy now thinks that if she doesn't believe it, it an't true.
jd
-- Original message -- From: Judith H Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I saw the denial in the last paragraph but then you go into all this relational business about communion
with creation and perichor
I.Q., culture, social statis, educational opportunities, geneaologies, ethnicity, religion and the child's government.
After birth, all of the above plus life's experiences.
jd
If God's love is not big enough to take all that into consideration when He jusges for the intentions of the hear
One reasoned excuse after another.
- Original Message -
From: Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/9/2006 12:06:40 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness (jd 2 cd)
Dean insists > To have a masculine quality is to be a male.
Dean, are you willing to put y
Like I said :
I.Q., culture, social statis, educational opportunities, geneaologies, ethnicity, religion and the child's government.
After birth, all of the above plus life's experiences.
If God's love is not big enough to take all that into consideration when He jusges for the intentions
We agree.
No Judy believes that "a man without understanding is like the beasts that perish" and you can take that to the bank
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 15:57:25 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
So Judy now thinks that if she doesn't believe it, it an't true.
jd
-- Origin
I read an aritcle by NT Wright this morning in which he spoke of the "beginning" of understanding. And in conversation with Bill Taylor, recently, he commented on just how wonderful it was that our knowledge of science (specifically) put us in a better postioin, as theologians, some of what
Not to mention the fact that the "spirit of the anti-Christ" is rooted in a misunderstanding as relates to the eternity and divine nature of the Incarnate One.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The term "Anti-Christ" is a buzz word f
Yet, it is perfectly clear that some [bizarre] doctrinal comments are not the result of the direction of the Spirit and need no refutation. There is proverbial commentary that directs us away from wasting effort against the nonsensical..
jd
-- Original message -- From
Funny. I just don't see David as ever having been young. :-)
jd
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > You guys are just upset you didn't get ahold of me when I was young and > ignorant. Maybe if you had encountered me when I was 8, you coul
In the biblical concept of the church
I see an avenue for continuing revelation, and if not revelation, certainly interpretation or understanding. If you will, it is in the counsel of many that our understanding of the biblical text is expanded and/or confirmed. How important, it
It appears there are two judges -- The Judge and The Impostor. If judgment has to do with bringing ppl into the relationship [and such is the only judgment presented to the modern day saint] , the judgment is easily assessed. Drive them [the ppl] away and the judgment is not of God. "Impost
Ah, the Good News -- and it is so different from the Old Law !! Wow!!
You have no idea which is Old Testament and which is New Testament. You do not see the Cross as that which ends the Law through fulfillment and Begins the administration of Grace apart from Law (there has always been grace
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