Struts2, Shale, Seam, pure JSF - what to use?
Hello list, the last days I've read a lot about web frameworks in java. And the more I read, the more questions I have. Just writing this down, maybe someone has some thoughts that can help me. My problem is simple, or lets say it should be simple: What webframework is a good choice to start a new web application? After all, JSF seams to be popular, it is supported by big vendors and it is a standard. My problem with JSF is that its way too basic in my eyes. It does not give me best practices, its just there and says: use me. But it does not give me an idea how it is used best. But maybe I missed that. My feeling is that its a core technology like jsp ... someone should build a framework with it ... I am missing this framework around JSF that does speed up development. Is shale meant to be this framework? It matured a lot since I last looked at it. But for me, it looks like its not really accepted - maybe I am wrong. Is shale what I am searching for? There is JBoss Seam. I don't want to use jboss AS and not sure if its the best choice.. I looked at struts2 and it feels like it could be what I searched for. There is good documentation, many examples, an maven archetype, lots of users and the possibility to use third party technologies like freemarker. But my problem is that I am not sure if its not better to use JSF to be compatible with future technologies. There are a lot of ajax-components for example, and we can wait that a lot of third party libraries and tools will be available... Is there a simple answer? Regards, Piero - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts2, Shale, Seam, pure JSF - what to use?
It isn't an either/or question. You can use JSF actions, components, and configuration in a Struts 2 app, using the Struts 2 JSF Plugin. If you prefer an action-centric design, but want to use JSF components, then it is worth looking into. If you want a pure JSF approach, especially if you have your eye on the JSF tools, then MyFaces or Shale would be worth looking at. See also: http://cwiki.apache.org/WW/javaserver-faces.html Don On 12/19/06, Piero Sartini [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello list, the last days I've read a lot about web frameworks in java. And the more I read, the more questions I have. Just writing this down, maybe someone has some thoughts that can help me. My problem is simple, or lets say it should be simple: What webframework is a good choice to start a new web application? After all, JSF seams to be popular, it is supported by big vendors and it is a standard. My problem with JSF is that its way too basic in my eyes. It does not give me best practices, its just there and says: use me. But it does not give me an idea how it is used best. But maybe I missed that. My feeling is that its a core technology like jsp ... someone should build a framework with it ... I am missing this framework around JSF that does speed up development. Is shale meant to be this framework? It matured a lot since I last looked at it. But for me, it looks like its not really accepted - maybe I am wrong. Is shale what I am searching for? There is JBoss Seam. I don't want to use jboss AS and not sure if its the best choice.. I looked at struts2 and it feels like it could be what I searched for. There is good documentation, many examples, an maven archetype, lots of users and the possibility to use third party technologies like freemarker. But my problem is that I am not sure if its not better to use JSF to be compatible with future technologies. There are a lot of ajax-components for example, and we can wait that a lot of third party libraries and tools will be available... Is there a simple answer? Regards, Piero - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts2, Shale, Seam, pure JSF - what to use?
Hi there, May I ask a corollary question in this context. What is the current status of Shale, is it build on top of SUN's JSF Ref. Implementation or MyFaces or Can I just use any JSF distro with Shale. Thanks for your replies in advance, regards robin On 12/19/06, Don Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It isn't an either/or question. You can use JSF actions, components, and configuration in a Struts 2 app, using the Struts 2 JSF Plugin. If you prefer an action-centric design, but want to use JSF components, then it is worth looking into. If you want a pure JSF approach, especially if you have your eye on the JSF tools, then MyFaces or Shale would be worth looking at. See also: http://cwiki.apache.org/WW/javaserver-faces.html Don On 12/19/06, Piero Sartini [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello list, the last days I've read a lot about web frameworks in java. And the more I read, the more questions I have. Just writing this down, maybe someone has some thoughts that can help me. My problem is simple, or lets say it should be simple: What webframework is a good choice to start a new web application? After all, JSF seams to be popular, it is supported by big vendors and it is a standard. My problem with JSF is that its way too basic in my eyes. It does not give me best practices, its just there and says: use me. But it does not give me an idea how it is used best. But maybe I missed that. My feeling is that its a core technology like jsp ... someone should build a framework with it ... I am missing this framework around JSF that does speed up development. Is shale meant to be this framework? It matured a lot since I last looked at it. But for me, it looks like its not really accepted - maybe I am wrong. Is shale what I am searching for? There is JBoss Seam. I don't want to use jboss AS and not sure if its the best choice.. I looked at struts2 and it feels like it could be what I searched for. There is good documentation, many examples, an maven archetype, lots of users and the possibility to use third party technologies like freemarker. But my problem is that I am not sure if its not better to use JSF to be compatible with future technologies. There are a lot of ajax-components for example, and we can wait that a lot of third party libraries and tools will be available... Is there a simple answer? Regards, Piero - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts2, Shale, Seam, pure JSF - what to use?
The roadmap has info pertaining to this thread. http://struts.apache.org/roadmap.html -Original Message- From: robin bajaj [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 6:04 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts2, Shale, Seam, pure JSF - what to use? Hi there, May I ask a corollary question in this context. What is the current status of Shale, is it build on top of SUN's JSF Ref. Implementation or MyFaces or Can I just use any JSF distro with Shale. Thanks for your replies in advance, regards robin On 12/19/06, Don Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It isn't an either/or question. You can use JSF actions, components, and configuration in a Struts 2 app, using the Struts 2 JSF Plugin. If you prefer an action-centric design, but want to use JSF components, then it is worth looking into. If you want a pure JSF approach, especially if you have your eye on the JSF tools, then MyFaces or Shale would be worth looking at. See also: http://cwiki.apache.org/WW/javaserver-faces.html Don On 12/19/06, Piero Sartini [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello list, the last days I've read a lot about web frameworks in java. And the more I read, the more questions I have. Just writing this down, maybe someone has some thoughts that can help me. My problem is simple, or lets say it should be simple: What webframework is a good choice to start a new web application? After all, JSF seams to be popular, it is supported by big vendors and it is a standard. My problem with JSF is that its way too basic in my eyes. It does not give me best practices, its just there and says: use me. But it does not give me an idea how it is used best. But maybe I missed that. My feeling is that its a core technology like jsp ... someone should build a framework with it ... I am missing this framework around JSF that does speed up development. Is shale meant to be this framework? It matured a lot since I last looked at it. But for me, it looks like its not really accepted - maybe I am wrong. Is shale what I am searching for? There is JBoss Seam. I don't want to use jboss AS and not sure if its the best choice.. I looked at struts2 and it feels like it could be what I searched for. There is good documentation, many examples, an maven archetype, lots of users and the possibility to use third party technologies like freemarker. But my problem is that I am not sure if its not better to use JSF to be compatible with future technologies. There are a lot of ajax-components for example, and we can wait that a lot of third party libraries and tools will be available... Is there a simple answer? Regards, Piero - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts2, Shale, Seam, pure JSF - what to use?
Off topic, but AFAIK, Shale doesn't depend on any specific JSF implementation. It's goal is to fill in the gaps in the JSF spec/framework for the user. Don On 12/19/06, robin bajaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi there, May I ask a corollary question in this context. What is the current status of Shale, is it build on top of SUN's JSF Ref. Implementation or MyFaces or Can I just use any JSF distro with Shale. Thanks for your replies in advance, regards robin On 12/19/06, Don Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It isn't an either/or question. You can use JSF actions, components, and configuration in a Struts 2 app, using the Struts 2 JSF Plugin. If you prefer an action-centric design, but want to use JSF components, then it is worth looking into. If you want a pure JSF approach, especially if you have your eye on the JSF tools, then MyFaces or Shale would be worth looking at. See also: http://cwiki.apache.org/WW/javaserver-faces.html Don On 12/19/06, Piero Sartini [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello list, the last days I've read a lot about web frameworks in java. And the more I read, the more questions I have. Just writing this down, maybe someone has some thoughts that can help me. My problem is simple, or lets say it should be simple: What webframework is a good choice to start a new web application? After all, JSF seams to be popular, it is supported by big vendors and it is a standard. My problem with JSF is that its way too basic in my eyes. It does not give me best practices, its just there and says: use me. But it does not give me an idea how it is used best. But maybe I missed that. My feeling is that its a core technology like jsp ... someone should build a framework with it ... I am missing this framework around JSF that does speed up development. Is shale meant to be this framework? It matured a lot since I last looked at it. But for me, it looks like its not really accepted - maybe I am wrong. Is shale what I am searching for? There is JBoss Seam. I don't want to use jboss AS and not sure if its the best choice.. I looked at struts2 and it feels like it could be what I searched for. There is good documentation, many examples, an maven archetype, lots of users and the possibility to use third party technologies like freemarker. But my problem is that I am not sure if its not better to use JSF to be compatible with future technologies. There are a lot of ajax-components for example, and we can wait that a lot of third party libraries and tools will be available... Is there a simple answer? Regards, Piero - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts2, Shale, Seam, pure JSF - what to use?
I should add, it therefore would be possible to run Struts 2, Shale, and JSF in the same application. :) Don On 12/19/06, Don Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Off topic, but AFAIK, Shale doesn't depend on any specific JSF implementation. It's goal is to fill in the gaps in the JSF spec/framework for the user. Don On 12/19/06, robin bajaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi there, May I ask a corollary question in this context. What is the current status of Shale, is it build on top of SUN's JSF Ref. Implementation or MyFaces or Can I just use any JSF distro with Shale. Thanks for your replies in advance, regards robin On 12/19/06, Don Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It isn't an either/or question. You can use JSF actions, components, and configuration in a Struts 2 app, using the Struts 2 JSF Plugin. If you prefer an action-centric design, but want to use JSF components, then it is worth looking into. If you want a pure JSF approach, especially if you have your eye on the JSF tools, then MyFaces or Shale would be worth looking at. See also: http://cwiki.apache.org/WW/javaserver-faces.html Don On 12/19/06, Piero Sartini [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello list, the last days I've read a lot about web frameworks in java. And the more I read, the more questions I have. Just writing this down, maybe someone has some thoughts that can help me. My problem is simple, or lets say it should be simple: What webframework is a good choice to start a new web application? After all, JSF seams to be popular, it is supported by big vendors and it is a standard. My problem with JSF is that its way too basic in my eyes. It does not give me best practices, its just there and says: use me. But it does not give me an idea how it is used best. But maybe I missed that. My feeling is that its a core technology like jsp ... someone should build a framework with it ... I am missing this framework around JSF that does speed up development. Is shale meant to be this framework? It matured a lot since I last looked at it. But for me, it looks like its not really accepted - maybe I am wrong. Is shale what I am searching for? There is JBoss Seam. I don't want to use jboss AS and not sure if its the best choice.. I looked at struts2 and it feels like it could be what I searched for. There is good documentation, many examples, an maven archetype, lots of users and the possibility to use third party technologies like freemarker. But my problem is that I am not sure if its not better to use JSF to be compatible with future technologies. There are a lot of ajax-components for example, and we can wait that a lot of third party libraries and tools will be available... Is there a simple answer? Regards, Piero - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts2, Shale, Seam, pure JSF - what to use?
On 12/19/06, Don Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It isn't an either/or question. You can use JSF actions, components, and configuration in a Struts 2 app, using the Struts 2 JSF Plugin. If you prefer an action-centric design, but want to use JSF components, then it is worth looking into. If you want a pure JSF approach, especially if you have your eye on the JSF tools, then MyFaces or Shale would be worth looking at. See also: http://cwiki.apache.org/WW/javaserver-faces.html As Don mentions, you can use JSF components with Struts2 pretty easily, and that can be a good avenue if you primarily want JSF for the visual components part, and don't need/want the managed beans and lifecycle controller parts. If a framework on top of JSF is what you are after (which is a reasonable thing for an application developer to want -- JSF focuses on the component APIs and the foundations for application needs), you can definitely look towards Shale[1] (we're putting the finishing touches on what we hope will be a GA release) or Seam[2] (just released 1.1 ). If you like tooling assistance around your development efforts, you might also want to take a look at what support your favorite IDE provides. If you happen to be in the NetBeans camp, the Visual Web Pack plugin is totally focused around visual drag-and-drop, and includes a built in framework with a lot of similarity to the view controller function in Shale, plus there is pretty nice non-visual support for straight JSF coding (including code generation for CRUD apps). You'll also see great support for JSF in Oracle's JDeveloper, and basic but getting there support in Eclipse. I can't speak to Idea's support for JSF, but wouldn't be surprised if it is comparable. Don Craig [1] http://shale.apache.org/ [2] http://jboss.com/products/seam/ On 12/19/06, Piero Sartini [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello list, the last days I've read a lot about web frameworks in java. And the more I read, the more questions I have. Just writing this down, maybe someone has some thoughts that can help me. My problem is simple, or lets say it should be simple: What webframework is a good choice to start a new web application? After all, JSF seams to be popular, it is supported by big vendors and it is a standard. My problem with JSF is that its way too basic in my eyes. It does not give me best practices, its just there and says: use me. But it does not give me an idea how it is used best. But maybe I missed that. My feeling is that its a core technology like jsp ... someone should build a framework with it ... I am missing this framework around JSF that does speed up development. Is shale meant to be this framework? It matured a lot since I last looked at it. But for me, it looks like its not really accepted - maybe I am wrong. Is shale what I am searching for? There is JBoss Seam. I don't want to use jboss AS and not sure if its the best choice.. I looked at struts2 and it feels like it could be what I searched for. There is good documentation, many examples, an maven archetype, lots of users and the possibility to use third party technologies like freemarker. But my problem is that I am not sure if its not better to use JSF to be compatible with future technologies. There are a lot of ajax-components for example, and we can wait that a lot of third party libraries and tools will be available... Is there a simple answer? Regards, Piero - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts2, Shale, Seam, pure JSF - what to use?
On 12/19/06, Piero Sartini [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello list, the last days I've read a lot about web frameworks in java. And the more I read, the more questions I have. Just writing this down, maybe someone has some thoughts that can help me. My problem is simple, or lets say it should be simple: What webframework is a good choice to start a new web application? For a small application, you might not need a framework at all. You can do quite a bit with plain old JSP and JSTL, especially if you are using something like DreamMaker as an IDE. But, as applications grow from five to fifteen to fifty pages, we've found that a MVC framework makes applications easier to maintain. After all, JSF seams to be popular, it is supported by big vendors and it is a standard. As Don mentioned, the JSF plugin lets you use JSF components with Struts 2, so it's not an either/or decision. Just as an aside, the latest IDEA is finally shipping with the Struts Assistant plugin enabled, as well as the Google Web Toolkit Studio, and the Seam plugin, among others. Open source and plugin architectures are making big vendors less relevant. (After all, who's the Time Person of the Year? You. (and you! and you!). * http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/16/time.you.tm/index.html My problem with JSF is that its way too basic in my eyes. It does not give me best practices, its just there and says: use me. But it does not give me an idea how it is used best. But maybe I missed that. My feeling is that its a core technology like jsp ... someone should build a framework with it ... I am missing this framework around JSF that does speed up development. Is shale meant to be this framework? It matured a lot since I last looked at it. But for me, it looks like its not really accepted - maybe I am wrong. Is shale what I am searching for? JSF is considered a MVC framework, just as ASP.NET is a MVC framework. These frameworks are component-centric. You build pages by assembling components, and the components can each fire their own actions to obtain and maintain state. Frameworks like Struts and Spring MVC are action-centric. You build actions that obtain and maintain state, and then use pages to present the state. Component-based frameworks tend to appeal to people who like to use an IDE to build a visual representation of the page, and then use glue code to paste the components together. Action-based frameworks tend to appeal to people who like to hand-code pages and normalize code. There is JBoss Seam. I don't want to use jboss AS and not sure if its the best choice.. Seam has been getting some good press on the MyFaces user list. Some people say that it overcomes several blind spots of the JSF framework. * http://mail-archive.com/users%40myfaces.apache.org/msg31585.html I looked at struts2 and it feels like it could be what I searched for. There is good documentation, many examples, an maven archetype, lots of users and the possibility to use third party technologies like freemarker. But my problem is that I am not sure if its not better to use JSF to be compatible with future technologies. There are a lot of ajax-components for example, and we can wait that a lot of third party libraries and tools will be available... It's interesting to note that Ajax caused quite a stir for both JSF and ASP.NET. The underling technology does not play well with AJAX. Both frameworks have solutions now, but retrofitting those frameworks for Ajax was a lot of work. Meanwhile, frameworks like Struts are able to use AJAX out of the box, with zero changes. Struts 2 is making AJAX even easier to use, but it was never hard to begin with. As Scotty said (or will say), The fancier the plumbing, the easier it is to gum up the works. :) Is there a simple answer? The truth is that web applications are still way too much work to create and maintain, which is why we continue to look for better solutions. The simplest answer I know is to pick a use case from your application and implement it using each solution under consideration. It doesn't have to be a big use case, maybe just a search form that brings back a list. The important thing is to try it yourself, and choose what works best for you. In fact, I'm doing that myself, right now. My team is evaluating Ajax solutions. We have a simple example application that demonstrates our architecture. I'm about to code the front-end in the Google Web Toolkit, to see how it goes. Film at 11. -- HTH, Ted. * http://www.husted.com/struts/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts2, Shale, Seam, pure JSF - what to use?
JSF is considered a MVC framework, just as ASP.NET is a MVC framework. These frameworks are component-centric. You build pages by assembling components, and the components can each fire their own actions to obtain and maintain state. Frameworks like Struts and Spring MVC are action-centric. You build actions that obtain and maintain state, and then use pages to present the state. Component-based frameworks tend to appeal to people who like to use an IDE to build a visual representation of the page, and then use glue code to paste the components together. Action-based frameworks tend to appeal to people who like to hand-code pages and normalize code. This is my main problem I think. Not sure if I should use an action based framework or go with JSF. Don't care about an IDE Designer - but I do care about what will be in 2 years and if my application will be easy to maintain and easy to extend for an even longer time. Everything you read out there is about JSF, and that it will be the future. Spring2 has the possibility to use it. But it overlaps functionality .. so its not the best solution in my eyes. The simplest answer I know is to pick a use case from your application and implement it using each solution under consideration. It doesn't have to be a big use case, maybe just a search form that brings back a list. The important thing is to try it yourself, and choose what works best for you. I really hoped to get an answer like: Go for this technology, its the best thing you can do right now Since it seems that it's not that easy, I will do what you suggested .. just try out myself and see what fits my need :-) Thanks for your long answer! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts2, Shale, Seam, pure JSF - what to use?
As Don mentions, you can use JSF components with Struts2 pretty easily, and that can be a good avenue if you primarily want JSF for the visual components part, and don't need/want the managed beans and lifecycle controller parts. If a framework on top of JSF is what you are after (which is a reasonable thing for an application developer to want -- JSF focuses on the component APIs and the foundations for application needs), you can definitely look towards Shale[1] (we're putting the finishing touches on what we hope will be a GA release) or Seam[2] (just released 1.1 ). Thanks, I will have a closer look at Shale and Seam. A framework on top of JSF sounds like what I am searching for. After reading this post of you, I am not sure if struts2 is what I want. - http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-devm=115090201630610w=2 If you like tooling assistance around your development efforts, you might also want to take a look at what support your favorite IDE provides. If you happen to be in the NetBeans camp, the Visual Web Pack plugin is totally focused around visual drag-and-drop, and includes a built in framework with a lot of similarity to the view controller function in Shale, plus there is pretty nice non-visual support for straight JSF coding (including code generation for CRUD apps). You'll also see great support for JSF in Oracle's JDeveloper, and basic but getting there support in Eclipse. I can't speak to Idea's support for JSF, but wouldn't be surprised if it is comparable. In the NetBeans camp and I know the VWP. Unfortunately it does not fit in my project, mainly because of missing templates. We discussed that on nbusers a few days ago ;-) Piero - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
