Re: [Vo]: Fwd: MAHG at TeslaTech convention
John Berry wrote: On 8/31/06, *Jones Beene* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This message came form Terry Holmes: snip His presentation pretty much consisted of the 2005 Naudin results with photos from the web site from last summer--complete with the Van Nostrand [incorrect!} quotes implying that the energy of combination of hydrogen was 90,000 time greater than the energy of disassociation (?!). Bill Lyne believes much the same. Does that mean that it is theoretically possible to run an engine on the hydrogen / oxygen produced by an electrolyze, and run the electrolyze on the alternator? Several people have asserted that this is possible, I'm still waiting for someone to demonstrate this. I could heat my house, and by selling the surplus electricity to the utility afford A C. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
Re: [Vo]: Steorm
Wesley Bruce wrote: Your overlooking the problem of patents. The patent will not be allowed if the theory is disputed and it gets worse if there is no theory at Patents are intended to protect applications. The discussion about the Steorm machine caused me to recall a patent for a permanent magnetic mechanical motor. As I recall the patentee's names were Jines, and Jines. My friend had plans to build a working prototype, but AFAIK, he has yet to get the job done. The part of the mechanism that involved shielding the magnet with Mu metal is similar. I am mystified at the amount of bandwidth which has been expended over this matter. I realize that if the principals are fraudulent then only independent replication and testing will definitively answer the question. However, IMHO, if the motor can power a device for an extended period of time, that's a pretty good indication that it is performing as promised. OTOH, I recall a man who build a F E circuit which worked by microwave radiation from a near by source. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
Re: [Vo]: Aether and free energy, etc
Terry Blanton wrote: String theory is dead. Hum, There is a physics professor Dr. Gates. I listened to him lecture on the matter. He believes that String Theory is very much alive. I intend to send him an email with Dale Pond's URL and my comment that Keely's work reminds me of String Theory. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
RE: [Vo]: OT: Oersted
Harry Veeder wrote: This might be an example of why credentials matter when a significant discovery is made. Maybe Romagnosi was ignored because his was viewed as an amateur?? It's from histories such as this one that I have finally come to the conclusion that really original discoveries are rarely attributed to the right people. I have quite a list of similar incidents, but I won't bore you Vorts with all of them. This particular historical error originates from typical French arrogance. The great Charles de Coulomb had proven mathematically that electricity and magnetism could not affect one another. This suppressed any notion that they might for some time, and any results to the contrary were ignored. Remember that Oersted's rediscovery of this principle occured after Coulomb was dead. Even the brilliant Ampère seems to have been diverted from discovering the reverse effect by Coulomb's reputation, though he had coils of wire and magnets right there on his work bench. Instead, the credit went to Faraday, although apparently William Henry made the discovery slightly before Faraday, but did not publish it. For a short period during that time you could actually be arrested in France for publishing anything suggesting electromagnetic induction, I suppose to protect Coulomb's reputation. Similarly, when Davy discovered chlorine, you could be arrested in France for publishing anything claiming that chlorine is an element, as this contradicted Lavoisier. On the other hand, maybe the whole thing could be attributed to the fact that Italian scientists just can't get no respect. Rhigi constructed the Van de Graaff generator a couple of hundred years before Van de Graaff. Olinto de Pretto published E=mc^2 a year or two before Einstein and so on. But really, I think that humans just can't accept the truth until they are ready. M. ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web!
[Vo]:
Original Message Subject: Substantiating From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Date:Fri, September 1, 2006 10:27 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Good Day, Even here in South Africa I got to read in The Mercury, Has he found the Holy Grail of science? re. scientist Sean Mc Carthy co. Steorm that placed ad. in Economist. The point I wish to make is there is a similarity between energy discovered that reputedly used in Atlantis before sinking below ocean floor, presumably as result of these same energy forces having caused break up in earth's structure, as also referred to by The Speeping Prophet. In relation to above I wish to substantiate by copying following extract from www.crystalinks.com Atlantean Crystals Theories about Atlantis mention the extensive use of crystals by Atlanteans. Crystals varied in patterns or grid - sizes - color combinations - and tones. Crystals follow harmonic frequencies and could be used with an instrument that looks like a tuning fork. They received power from a variety of sources, including the Sun, the Earth's energy grid system, or from each other. Atlanteans allegedly harnessed the energies of the pyramids, using crystals to that end. As we have the Great Pyramid at the center of the planet linked to the grid matrix that creates our reality, so, too, did the Atlanteans. Their pyramid allegedly sunk to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean which is a metaphor about returning to the collective unconsciousness or source of creation. Just as we have major and minor grid points of energy on the planet - so did the Atlanteans. Grids point are often marked by pyramids. The Atlanteans used this energy, combined with crystals, to transmit energy from one pyramid to another. Depending on the tilt of the Earth's axis at a particular time of the year, one pyramid would function to intensify and transmit energies to other pyramids which would then act as receiving devices and would disperse energy as it was needed. The opposite would apply when that pyramid was at an unfocusable point to their celestial alignment, when other pyramids would be used as transmiters. It was an intricate matrix crystal grid system. Uses of Crystals - Healing, childbirth, crossing over - Meditation, awakening, increasing psychic abilities - Increasing mental capacity and clarity of thought - Science and technology - Dematerialization - teleportation - telekinesis - Magnetic force fields - Libraries - storing records and other knowledge, much like a computer - Botany and agriculture - Weather Control - Huge crystal tower power generators - Communication - Crystals have the ability to transfer energy, to retain it, to maintain its intensity, to focus and transmit it over great distance to similar receivers as are equal or comparable to the transmitter. The larger stones, called Fire Crystals, were the central receiving and broadcasting stations, while others acted as receivers for individual cities, buildings, vehicles and homes. On a higher spiritual level, rooms made of crystals were places where the Initiates left their bodies in the Final Transcendence, often never to return. Edgar Cayce One of the most detailed descriptions of the Atlantean use of a mysterious instrument called the Great Crystal was given by Edgar Cayce, who mentioned it many times. The crystal, he said was housed in a special building oval in shape, with a dome that could be rolled back, exposing the Crystal to the light of the sun, moon and stars at the most favorable time. The interior of the building was lined with non-conducting metal or stone, similar to asbestos or bakelite, a thermosetting plastic. The Crystal itself, the Tuaoi Stone, or Firestone, was huge in size, cylindrical in length, and prismatic in shape, cut with six sides. Atop the crystal was a moveable capstone, used to both concentrate incoming rays of energy, and to direct currents to various parts of the Atlantean countryside. It appears that the Crystal gathered solar, lunar, stellar, atmospheric and Earth energies as well as unknown elemental forces and concentrated these at a specific point, located between the top of the Crystal and the bottom of the capstone. The energy was used for various purposes. In the beginning it was used as purely a spiritual tool by initiates who could handle the great energy. The early Atlanteans were peaceful people. As they developed more physical material bodies, they used the crystal to rejuvenate their bodies and were able to live hundreds of years while maintaining a youthful appearance. Later the Great Crystal was put to other uses. Currents of energy were transmitted throughout the land, like radio waves, and powered by these, crafts and vehicles traversed the land, through the sky and under the sea at the speed of sound. By utilization of other currents originating
[Vo]: Steorn: MP3 interview with Sean McCarthy
Here's an interview with Steorn, done by the Steornwatch website guy Steornwatch show, interview with Steorn http://tinyurl.com/od2zz A few highlights: - They already tried to do it quietly. Several scientists in Europe, UK, and Ireland have already fully analyzed the invention. But they all refused to go on record withtheir results or their names. - They've used it to directly lift weights. But they haven't hooked up the device to a generator because it doesn't mean anything. - They're *certain* that the route they've taken is the only way that the technology could get out; that professional physicsts *have* to test it and track down the energy source, or at least validate that it works. (Hmm. They don't think that direct empirical evidence does anything? That they could make a bunch of working models and give them away? Or start selling kits and DVDs, like the Levitron toy? But then, in the UK if you make your discovery public before the patent is issued, the patent is ruined. In the USA you have a 1-year grace period.) - They think that when it's validated, lots of other companies will jump in with much better patents: that it's not the discoverer who makes the big bucks, it's the second guy. So they just want to make some bucks from their own patents and step aside. - They think the easiest application will be phones and laptops (!!!) and they intend to patent and sell licences for those apps., and not charge fees for other applications (like generators in villiages for 3rd-world countries.) It's because major power plants take 6 years from the dr - Someone published their home addresses online. Someone (blogger?) was hanging around outside and scared Sean's family, and when approached the person ran off. (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: [Vo]: Aether and free energy, etc
On 9/1/06, thomas malloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hum, There is a physics professor Dr. Gates. I listened to him lecture on the matter. He believes that String Theory is very much alive. I intend to send him an email with Dale Pond's URL and my comment that Keely's work reminds me of String Theory. There are over 10^400 different string theories and not one is falsifiable. Let's just say string theory is in the CCU until the LHC is built and operating in about one year. Terry
Re: [Vo]:
On 9/1/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Communication - Crystals have the ability to transfer energy, to retain it, to maintain its intensity, to focus and transmit it over great distance to similar receivers as are equal or comparable to the transmitter. And are often used in heterodyne mixers to extract information from electromagnetic radiation. Terry
Re: [Vo]:
I get what you mean with regard to the peepshow comment, yes it would be nice if when practical he closed the loop or did something to make it more final.What would you have had him do in the case of Mizuno though? (I haven't looked much or at all at the replication in question)As for the MAHG I can't seem to find the group, if you can locate either the post or the group that would be great.He ran a dummy load test which came to the correct figure, I find it hard to believe that 20 COP times can become underunity, 10 times maybe he's out by an order of magnitude somehow but I can't see how he can be that far out so I'd love to see that post. On 9/1/06, Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, Naudin is not hoaxing - closer to needing a lesson in measuring P-in. BTW - when in the past has Naudin been proven correct, *with independent replication,* on any OU experiment ? I think it would be wise to question every conclusion he has made. Most are lacking. Read George Holtz's post on the 20x power measurement error made by Naudin. It is on the MAHG forum. Don't get me wrong - I admire the effort put in by Naudin and his skill as a builder of a wide assortment of unfinished and *promising* experiments - but his refusal to admit obvious errors and to correct the errors online - as with the MEG and MAHGis irresponsible. And then the biggest objection is that he leaves everything in acliff-hanging state- why can't hepush forward and finish what he has started if there is a hint of OU - as with Mizuno? His M.O over at least a dozen experimentsis to show a provocativeglimpse of what could be OU, with a well constructed experiment BUT thento abruptly and without explanation - move onto the next glimpse. Peep show science ! ... not there is anything wrong with drama... or peep shows for that matter g Jones - Original Message - From: John Berry To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: MAHG at TeslaTech convention Unless your accusing Naudin of hoaxing it what do you mean no proof!?!20+ COP, that's pretty straight forward!And personally I wouldn't question Naudin, he has proven himself numerous times over many years. That doesn't mean the Hydrogen recombination theory is correct, maybe it is a way to tap vacuum energy (strikes me Aspden might agree having read some of his stuff the other day) and maybe it isn't but how do you know that recombination of hydrogen can't lead to tapping vacuum energy under the right conditions? Build it and prove him wrong.Actually the only thing puzzling me is why more than a year after a successful reproducible 20+ COP FE machine which is relatively straight forward to replicate there is no obvious sign of them showing up for sale anytime soon, Ok it creates heat not electricity and even if we assume that turning heat into electricity is bothersome enough to discourage it as the primary energy source for homes why not a really efficient heater? Tempted to build one myself if someone can suggest an efficient low cost way to turn heat into electricity, anyone know where to get Sterling engines that can do about 1kw? Steam Turbine? On 9/1/06, Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- John Berry wrote: Bill Lyne believes much the same [basicmisunderstanding of hydrogen chemistry -in theexplanation]A google search for Thorsten Ludwig, President of theGerman Association for Space Energy (GASE), indicates that he resides in Berlin, Germany and is aspokesperson for alternative energy innovations inEurope.Recently completing a PhD, his doctoral thesis was onthe Casimir Effect and zero point energy. He has participated in the Casimir Force colloquia overseasand is apparently an inspiring speaker with somecredentials.. making his inane repetition at this conference -of obvious and glaring fundamental mistakes in the original Naudin/Moller writeup - all the moremysterious...This does not necessarily mean that they haven't foundexcess energy[yet there is still little real prooffor that] - it only means there is more high level ignorance in the field than there should be. Onesuspects another mail order PhD - ala Bearden.Repetition of a flawed experiment proves more aboutthe repeater than the original premise.Jones
Re: [Vo]:
Seriously? I mistakenly use Sterling instead of Stirling and you see fit to remark, but Harriet posts some very hard to entertain (even if your open minded) new age stuff about Atlantis and crystals somehow relating to a magnetic perpetual motion machines and you decide to contribute? On 9/1/06, Terry Blanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/1/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Communication - Crystals have the ability to transfer energy, to retain it, to maintain its intensity, to focus and transmit it over great distance to similar receivers as are equal or comparable to the transmitter.And are often used in heterodyne mixers to extract information from electromagnetic radiation.Terry
Re: [Vo]: Steorn
Dr. Zimmerman was kind enough to post an interesting STEORN article, which quotes McCarthy, on the YAHOO Hydrino Discussion group. See: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2331264,00.html http://tinyurl.com/ztfys TITLE: Inventor keeps his perpetual motion machine under a cloak of invisibility Of particular interest to me was the implications stated in the following paragraph: > Dr White, an atomic physicist at University > College Dublin, had a straightforward question: > Why not publish your results in a peer review > journal and go and collect your Nobel prize > when you are vindicated? He added: If he is > right, he will have solved the riddle of the > Universe and brought peace to the Middle East. ...which amused the hell out of me. What "peer review" publication would dare publish what appears to be on the surface a perpetual motion contraption? And then Dr. White says the device (if true) would bring "peace to the Middle East." If this contraption turned out to be the genuine article the last thing it would bring is "peace to the Middle East." Quite the opposite would occur, as propped up governments begin to topple as internal strife and revolution run rampant through most of the oil dominated regimes. The additional political instability in the middle east would also likely drag plenty of other world governments into disarray for quite a tumultuous time before things eventually settled back to some form of sanity. This is not to say that I believe the STEORM device is the genuine article. At present I really don't know. It just pisses me off that we have an "atomic physicist", whom one would assume is in a position of authority and/or knowledge spout things that when one thinks about it in a little more depth are pretty ridiculous and naïve. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]: Fwd: MAHG at TeslaTech convention
Of course there are those that claim that, but this isn't about seperation and recombination of H2 and O but of H and H.On 9/1/06, thomas malloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:John Berry wrote: On 8/31/06, *Jones Beene* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This message came form Terry Holmes: snip His presentation pretty much consisted of the 2005 Naudin results with photos from the web site from last summer--complete with the Van Nostrand [incorrect!} quotes implying that the energy of combination ofhydrogen was 90,000 time greater than the energy of disassociation(?!). Bill Lyne believes much the same.Does that mean that it is theoretically possible to run an engine on the hydrogen / oxygen produced by an electrolyze, and run the electrolyze onthe alternator? Several people have asserted that this is possible, I'mstill waiting for someone to demonstrate this. I could heat my house, and by selling the surplus electricity to the utility afford A C.--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
Re: [Vo]: Steorm
OTOH, I recall a man who build a F E circuit which worked by microwaveradiation from a near by source.Who?On 9/1/06, thomas malloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wesley Bruce wrote: Your overlooking the problem of patents. The patent will not be allowed if the theory is disputed and it gets worse if there is no theory atPatents are intended to protect applications. The discussion about the Steorm machine caused me to recall a patent fora permanent magnetic mechanical motor. As I recall the patentee's nameswere Jines, and Jines. My friend had plans to build a working prototype, but AFAIK, he has yet to get the job done. The part of the mechanismthat involved shielding the magnet with Mu metal is similar.I am mystified at the amount of bandwidth which has been expended overthis matter. I realize that if the principals are fraudulent then only independent replication and testing will definitively answer thequestion. However, IMHO, if the motor can power a device for anextended period of time, that's a pretty good indication that it is performing as promised.OTOH, I recall a man who build a F E circuit which worked by microwaveradiation from a near by source.--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
Re: [Vo]:
On 9/1/06, John Berry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seriously? I mistakenly use Sterling instead of Stirling and you see fit to remark, but Harriet posts some very hard to entertain (even if your open minded) new age stuff about Atlantis and crystals somehow relating to a magnetic perpetual motion machines and you decide to contribute? Hmmm; so, I gather you do not see the humor in my comment, eh? Terri
Re: [Vo]:
Neither you in mine.I was wondering if it was a joke but couldn't be bothered trying to figure of if anything called a heterodyne mixer might just exist, it sound like vaguely plausible if obscure technobabble. And papers have been accepted with just such bogus technobabble of course, what, you mean you don't understand it?On 9/2/06, Terry Blanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On 9/1/06, John Berry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seriously? I mistakenly use Sterling instead of Stirling and you see fit to remark, but Harriet posts some very hard to entertain (even if your open minded) new age stuff about Atlantis and crystals somehow relating to a magnetic perpetual motion machines and you decide to contribute?Hmmm; so, I gather you do not see the humor in my comment, eh?Terri
[Vo]: Re: MAHG/ Naudin
- Original Message - From: John Berry As for the MAHG I can't seem to find the group, if you can locate either the post or the group that would be great. It is a Yahoo Group: aH-gen http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aH-gen/ The archives are public, search for messages from George Holz. Apologies to George, whose name I often misspell... as well as my own on occasion. (the'holtz in Helmholtz and others in science - is the problem and my spell checker cannot remember that) He ran a dummy load test which came to the correct figure, I find it hard to believe that 20 COP times can become underunity, 10 times maybe he's out by an order of magnitude somehow but I can't see how he can be that far out so I'd love to see that post. Basically it gets down to using a 5% duty factor (reciprocal of 20, of course) and multiplying this by both the volts and amps instead of only volts - (amps is an absolute value in this case) which fools you into thinking that you are using 20 times less power than you are. The mistake was picked up by others as well but Naudin never acknowledged it. It is not that simple, however, and there is the possibility that there could be OU in the range of COP of 2.5 according to the initial experiments, which were done correctly. I talked to Moller personally (thanks to VOIP) - and he is in denial, as well, about Naudin's gaff and his failure to rectify that - or about the other egregious error in the write-up: mistaking cal for Cal... This kind of error keeps getting repeated over and over... apparently even by German PhDs g ... not that there's anything wrong with the German higher educational system On 9/1/06, Jones Beene wrote: No, Naudin is not hoaxing - closer to needing a lesson in measuring P-in. Read George Holtz's post on the 20x power measurement error made by Naudin. It is on the MAHG forum.
[Vo]: Challenges are popular.
Don't know if this has been posted before:http://www.relativitychallenge.comSR has been invalidated plenty based on logic and experiment, now the math finally gets what's coming to it.
Re: [Vo]: Challenges are popular.
Title: Re: [Vo]: Challenges are popular. Great link. I can appreciate the difference the author makes between complete and incomplete coordinate systems. Harry John Berry wrote: Don't know if this has been posted before: http://www.relativitychallenge.com SR has been invalidated plenty based on logic and experiment, now the math finally gets what's coming to it.
[Vo]: OT: pi
The mathematically inclined might like to study this. http://members.ispwest.com/r-logan/narrative.html The possibility of squaring the circle was proven impossible in the late 1800's. The quest to the square the circle, like the quest for free energy, is now considered the domain of cranks and quacks...but... you never know... Harry
Re: [Vo]: Challenges are popular.
At 02:50 am 02/09/2006 +1200, you wrote: Don't know if this has been posted before: http://www.relativitychallenge.com Interesting - Looks good to me. Frank
[Vo]: Electrolyzed hydrogen at half the cost
Vorts, Will this technique also work for (generating via electrolysis ), hydrogen peroxide? http://www.stifflerscientific.com/ Thanks. Colin
Re: [Vo]: OT: pi
This guy revisits the ancient problem of squaring the circle and shows that it is possible to square the circle _exactly_ and not just approximately. In the late 19th century pi was shown not to be an _algebraic_ number. He does not challenge that proof. What he has done is invalidate the assumption that the aforementioned proof demonstrates the impossibility of squaring the circle. His does this by showing that pi is a _composite_ and a _constructible_ number. Unlike the proof of Fermat's last theorem, this is a proof that can be followed without the need to know tons of higher math. Harry See: http://members.ispwest.com/r-logan/math.html quotes: Many mathematicians believe that, because the number pi is transcendental and not algebraic, and cannot be expressed in any form other than that of an unending decimal or as the limit of an infinite sequence, it cannot be constructed as a line segment by any method whatsoever. The fact that a structure could exist, providing insight into this matter, is nowhere to be acknowledged. We are taught in high school geometry class that if the altitude be drawn to the hypotenuse of a right triangle, each leg is the mean proportional between the whole hypotenuse and the adjacent segment. This then is the essence of what I call the pi/phi structure...
[Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
Suppose you stumbled across the same thing that Steorm did. Apparently those guys aren't aquainted with the history of FE fiascos. (For example, what will they do when the burglaries start, or the anonymous death threats are phoned in against their families?)So, knowing what you know, what would you do differently? (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
RE: [Vo]: Electrolyzed hydrogen at half the cost
Colin! If you are asking about the CRE approach (?), the answer is Yes, but!, CRE does have some limitations and those rap around the difference in AC and DC. As most will agree a capacitor is great for passing AC yet is a great storage device for DC. The CRE uses a capacitor in series with the charging (power source) to the electrolyzer and as such you will see the normal charge, discharge curve of the cap. Yet, during the electrolysis process when one stops the current flow by removing the source, the action in the cell does not stop, it will continue for some time (depending on plate type, spacing and if AC or DC is being applied). The original CRE's used a relay and switched about 0.25 Hz, the current versions use MOSFets and run 600 Hz. Solid state CRE's run at 50% +/-20%(depends on electrolyte) and on average show 135-180% over the sane input using filtered DC. The limitation's) is (are) proper selection and matching of cell structure (plate spacing and material), electrolyte, desired gas output and capacitor size and switch frequency. For high production cells it is not uncommon that you could be using 1 Farad or more, yet with split cell construction (where produced gas is combined) you could obtain the same output with say 5 smaller units with each having 1uf cap at a freq of 15,895 Hz. Please don't confuse what is stated as being some magic number tied to any other way out claim or idea, the figure I am stating are from working systems of various configuration which have different construction parms. Backing up some, the AC/DC diff comes into play in that the cell sustains evolution when power is removed, that in effect is the same as a reduced resistance when the pulses are passed through the cell. Should the pulse freq be below the cutoff point of the self sustained evolution (due to ion build up) then production will drop off sharply. Currently the StifflerScientifc lab had a simple yet effective CRE running that gets around the ion cloud around the electrodes. This is seem in a normal cell as the current rises at the start to a max point, then declines to the operational point. The new CRE allows the production to stay at it highest point by switching between a special electrode configuration. CRE makes use of both the AC component and the DC (may will regurgitate over this statement) yet it is proven by many systems on the market today that pulsing does indeed work better (for a number of reasons) than steady state DC (NO Stanley Meyer theory here). Sorry for a simple answer being so long,yet I have worked with many CRE designs and they are worth looking into.
Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
On 9/1/06, William Beaty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Suppose you stumbled across the same thing that Steorm did. I'd do exactly what Paul Sprain did. Once you get the patent, publish enough information on the web that anyone with a little engineering experience could replicate the device. Then have a bevy of lawyers ready to sue anyone who tries to sell one. Terry
Re: [Vo]: Aether and free energy, etc
Terry Blanton wrote: On 9/1/06, thomas malloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hum, There is a physics professor Dr. Gates. I listened to him lecture on the matter. He believes that String Theory is very much alive. I intend to send him an email with Dale Pond's URL and my comment that Keely's work reminds me of String Theory. There are over 10^400 different string theories and not one is falsifiable. Let's just say string theory is in the CCU until the LHC is built and operating in about one year. Terry Is the number of string theories inversely proportional to the size of a pin's head? Harry
Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
On Fri, 1 Sep 2006, William Beaty wrote: So, knowing what you know, what would you do differently? Me, I'd firmly decide that already some better people than I had utterly failed to find a way to make any money off such a discovery. It's just too big. By having a family who could receive death-threats, I couldn't touch it even in order to distribute the information for free. (Also, I know that you can't simply publish the plans, since that's been done many times before, and the few people who actually try building a device will do something wrong, and fail.) So I'd become Johnny Overunity-seed, and also devote a few years of my life to spreading a memetic virus. First, I'd suddenly vanish. Go underground. Then I'd work my way across the country, going from friend to friend, carrying a working prototype. My goal would be to teach people to build copies that actually work. My second goal would be to convince each person to go and teach several friends to make working copies... and have them try to convince those other people to do the same. Each person would become a teacher who had promised to go out and create more teachers. This would be the equivalent of lighting a fire NOT with a single match, but while strolling along across the world and flinging matches left and right. Here's some lunatic ravings from 1999: Lighting a fire http://amasci.com/freenrg/spred1.txt Also: The prometheus game http://amasci.com/freenrg/prometh.html Rules for FE inventors http://amasci.com/weird/rules1.html (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
No disrespect in any way, BUT are not the attorneys the ones making the money here? If you have enough money to take this approach then why bother in the first place. I have been on this earth for 69 years now and have seen business and honesty go from a hand shake or a persons word to having each vowel and syllable written in a contractual document that is of little value in that you will get sued ANYWAY! If I had given up the old belief and way life once was I would not be working today and I would not be driving what I am and my attorney a Lincoln. I would be on vacation and not in the lab while my attorney sends a sub (wet behind the ears) to defend a patent when he/she can't even understand what science is, let alone defend it.
RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
Simple There are those that believe in the MIB's and those that are MIB's that say they do not exist and the whole idea of suppression is CRAP! You will not make Billions of dollars from any FE device, Period! Once you find a key to the door the rest of the collective of minds will jump in with the control mongers a centralists and take over. You will not be allowed to disrupt a world economy and qusi stability by upsetting the apple cart. It takes little research to find where raids, no knocks, etc., has destroyed many aspiring business for one reason or another. So what do you do? You sell it to the Pink Bunny and run.. But wait? That is immoral, against mankind, just plain selfish, stupid, greedy? Yet it is a fact you can either go to the bank with or to the grave.
RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
In regard to the spreading of plans, it is true that few people will bother to build anything BUT I am unaware of any real Free energy device out there, in the big wide world that actually works. Almost without exception, such claims are vague as to critical details and disappointing as to demonstrations. If I find a free energy electrical device, I will measure its performance by DC ONLY, no AC. There will be no questions about reactive power!
RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
William Beaty wrote: Suppose you stumbled across the same thing that Steorm did. Apparently those guys aren't aquainted with the history of FE fiascos. (For example, what will they do when the burglaries start, or the anonymous death threats are phoned in against their families?) These things happened to Stan Pons and a few others, but I think such harassment is exceedingly rare, and nothing to worry about. As far as I know, all of the harassment against cold fusion researchers has come from other cold fusion researchers, and from people who do not believe the effect exists. I have never heard of anyone who is afraid it might be real and who is trying to stop it. Perhaps that is a secret motivation but I very much doubt it. Leading opponents at places like the Scientific American, Nature, Time magazine and elsewhere have repeatedly asserted that they are dead certain it is pathological nonsense, fraud, lunacy, etc. I am sure they are telling the truth about their own feelings. They also say they have read no papers about cold fusion, and I am sure that is true too. The people at Hydrodynamics -- along with several experts and I -- are convinced that their device produces anomalous excess heat. None of us has any reason to doubt that based on extensive experiments. However, the company gave up trying to convince people of that fact many years ago, because it was more trouble than it is worth. Since the excess heat is only 10% ~ 15% it has no financial significance or practical use. As far as I know, no one ever threatened them or the people who are working on similar devices 30 years ago. The world ignores such claims. If I found something like this, I would do exactly what I have done all along. I would publish as much detailed information about it as I can lay hands on at LENR-CANR.org, and I would encourage others to replicate. Whether this will ever have a positive effect or not I cannot say, but it seems like the most practical plan for people who have no money and no access to mainstream media. I have been doing this for some time, and hundreds of thousands of people have downloaded the papers, including many at national laboratories, universities, oil companies and other corporations. Apparently, many people take cold fusion seriously enough to read these papers. (I doubt anyone reads them for fun.) I have never once been threatened or harassed by anyone other than a few cold fusion researchers. These few are childish, ill tempered, ill mannered, and undoubtedly they are their Own Worst Enemies. They have made more trouble for me, and for themselves, than the folks at the APS and the Scientific American. The Steorm plans seem excessively complicated and time-consuming to me. Assuming they have something real and it can be demonstrated on a small scale who, I cannot imagine why they are going to all this trouble. If they could make a dozen prototypes and give four or five to me, or to Bill Beaty for that matter, we could probably convince the whole world in a few months. The Steorm people, in common with many cold fusion researchers, seem to be very anxious to convince mainstream skeptics that their claims are real. They are determined to publish papers in leading journals such as Nature, which is (literally) the last place on earth that will accept these claims. I have never understood why these researchers want to do this. There are millions of friendly people out there who are convinced cold fusion is real, and you only want to know more about it. Many of these people are probably influential and if the cold fusion researchers would only reach out to them they could probably get very substantial financial and moral support. Yet instead of reaching out to these potential friends, many cold fusion researchers concentrate obsessively on trying to convince their enemies! I find their behavior incomprehensible. - Jed
RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
Willis Jenkin wrote: There are those that believe in the MIB's and those that are MIB's that say they do not exist and the whole idea of suppression is CRAP! Cold fusion is the only 100% certified definitely-does-exists anomalous form of energy. I am dead center in the cold fusion business. So I am pretty sure I would have heard from these MIB by now, or someone such as Fleischmann, Storms or Mizuno would have heard from them. So far, the only people who have attacked us are other cold fusion researchers, and the people at Scientific American who have never read a paper and know nothing about the claims. You will not make Billions of dollars from any FE device, Period! Of course you could. It would be hard to avoid making billions. You will not be allowed to disrupt a world economy and qusi stability by upsetting the apple cart. That's silly. Starting in 1979, Bill Gates and a handful of scruffy microcomputer designers upset the apple cart and nearly put IBM out of business. Starting in 1908, Henry Ford knocked the US passenger railroads on to the ropes, stealing a large part of their business in 10 or 20 years. They were the largest, most powerful, most ruthless corporations in the world. Around 1960 companies like Toyota and Honda brought Japanese prototype cars to the US and could barely drive them across the country, they were so badly made and so ill-equipped for the US market. Now, Ford and GM are teetering on the verge of oblivion, and if they survive another 10 years it will be because Toyota decides it would be politically advantageous to sell them advanced automotive technology, rather than simply pushing them out of business. Small businesses have put big ones out of business over and over again throughout the history of commerce. Believe me, I have been watching over-unity inventors for many years. Some I know are real, such as a cold fusion people and the ones at Hydrodynamics. The rest are probably fooling themselves. In every case, most of their troubles have been and continue to be caused by themselves. I do not have the slightest doubt these people are their own worst enemies, and if they had only acted with a modicum of common sense and business acumen 12 years ago, they would be as rich as Bill Gates is. The academic scientists act this way because they appear to be really and truly uninterested in money. They honestly think the only way to succeed is to publish in Nature. (Many of them oppose the idea of publishing papers on the Internet.) The others who act really squirrely are probably either crazy or scam artists. - Jed
RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
Jed sez: ... > The Steorm people, in common with many cold fusion > researchers, seem to be very anxious to convince > mainstream skeptics that their claims are real. > They are determined to publish papers in leading > journals such as Nature, which is (literally) the last > place on earth that will accept these claims. I have > never understood why these researchers want to do this. > There are millions of friendly people out there who > are convinced cold fusion is real, and you only want to > know more about it. Many of these people are probably > influential and if the cold fusion researchers would > only reach out to them they could probably get very > substantial financial and moral support. Yet instead > of reaching out to these potential friends, many cold > fusion researchers concentrate obsessively on trying > to convince their enemies! I find their behavior > incomprehensible. > > - Jed > Jed, on a slightly lighter note, I one may find the underlying reasons for such incomprehensible behavior as portrayed quite brilliantly (and most humorously) by John Carradine, who played Dr. Bernardo, the mad sex research scientist in Woody Allen's classic 1972 Fantasy Film "Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex, * But Were Afraid to Ask." See: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068555/ In one of the mini skits Dr. Bernardo confronts Woody with a personal ultimatum: "They all thought I was mad! Well I'll show them! I'll show them all!" Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
Knowing what Steorn apparently know I would do pretty much what Steorn has done.Knowing what I know first I would pick friends and tell them everything, have them work with me in the workshop to replicate everything, they would know everything I would know. After having about 20 such people trained I would build as many as I possibly could and make a list of people in the alternative energy field to send devices to, each with the instruction to test, verify and hopefully replicate and then to pass it another scientist. I would also give a bunch of devices to everyday people to use, and perhaps one or two to (semi?) famous people.I would then try and get this on the evening news somehow with a similtanious launch on the web, full details including a video of me building the device from scratch in front of their eyes, full instructions to replicate. And have everyone with the device also make videos and load them on youtube.If I was a millionaire I would covertly get a few tens of thousand made and give them away freely to nearby public along with ensuring I was ready to sell a bunch more. (as well as doing a number of the things listed above) I would also buy some advertising time on TV to ensure it gets on TV.Now if only the energy cartel would be so good as to give us the same advanced warning...On 9/2/06, Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: William Beaty wrote:Suppose you stumbled across the same thing that Steormdid.Apparently those guys aren't aquainted with the history of FEfiascos.(For example, what will they do when the burglaries start, or the anonymous death threats are phoned in against their families?)These things happened to Stan Pons and a few others, but I think suchharassment is exceedingly rare, and nothing to worry about. As far as I know, all of the harassment against cold fusion researchers hascome from other cold fusion researchers, and from people who do notbelieve the effect exists. I have never heard of anyone who is afraidit might be real and who is trying to stop it. Perhaps that is a secret motivation but I very much doubt it. Leading opponents atplaces like the Scientific American, Nature, Time magazine andelsewhere have repeatedly asserted that they are dead certain it ispathological nonsense, fraud, lunacy, etc. I am sure they are telling the truth about their own feelings. They also say they have read nopapers about cold fusion, and I am sure that is true too.The people at Hydrodynamics -- along with several experts and I --are convinced that their device produces anomalous excess heat. None of us has any reason to doubt that based on extensive experiments.However, the company gave up trying to convince people of that factmany years ago, because it was more trouble than it is worth. Sincethe excess heat is only 10% ~ 15% it has no financial significance or practical use. As far as I know, no one ever threatened them or thepeople who are working on similar devices 30 years ago. The worldignores such claims.If I found something like this, I would do exactly what I have done all along. I would publish as much detailed information about it as Ican lay hands on at LENR-CANR.org, and I would encourage others toreplicate. Whether this will ever have a positive effect or not Icannot say, but it seems like the most practical plan for people who have no money and no access to mainstream media.I have been doing this for some time, and hundreds of thousands ofpeople have downloaded the papers, including many at nationallaboratories, universities, oil companies and other corporations. Apparently, many people take cold fusion seriously enough to readthese papers. (I doubt anyone reads them for fun.) I have never oncebeen threatened or harassed by anyone other than a few cold fusionresearchers. These few are childish, ill tempered, ill mannered, and undoubtedly they are their Own Worst Enemies. They have made moretrouble for me, and for themselves, than the folks at the APS and theScientific American.The Steorm plans seem excessively complicated and time-consuming to me. Assuming they have something real and it can be demonstrated on asmall scale who, I cannot imagine why they are going to all thistrouble. If they could make a dozen prototypes and give four or fiveto me, or to Bill Beaty for that matter, we could probably convince the whole world in a few months.The Steorm people, in common with many cold fusion researchers, seemto be very anxious to convince mainstream skeptics that their claimsare real. They are determined to publish papers in leading journals such as Nature, which is (literally) the last place on earth thatwill accept these claims. I have never understood why theseresearchers want to do this. There are millions of friendly peopleout there who are convinced cold fusion is real, and you only want to know more about it. Many of these people are probably influential andif the cold fusion researchers would only reach out to them theycould probably get very substantial
Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
Schopenhauer on the three stages of truth: First, ridicule; Second, vigorous opposition; Third, acceptance as self-evident. Swami Vivekananda: Each work has to pass through these stagesridicule, opposition, and then acceptance. Those who think ahead of their time are sure to be misunderstood.
Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
I to this day remember how I revolted against my German born grandfather that told me, Son I have been there, I have made the mistakes, maybe not all, but enough to help you get a good footing in life with little danger and a possible good ending. God! how I hated hearing that. I was young and did deeply believe that youth had the answers and the old ways were of little meaning in my day and age. So wrong was I. Comparing Gates to the energy industry is folly at best, it has no meaning, like is an Apple an Orange? I no longer let myself tangle in long debates, not that much has changed over the last 150 years. Okay, great technology, great standard of living, great medical care and so on, BUT! gentleman my mind sees that a fully 90% of what we have today came from the 1800's, we only refined the ideas and build the means to implement what was then conceived. Today's discoveries pale in respect to the foundation on which we have built. Hard to take?, maybe for some, but those with a open view will agree, at least in mind yet not in print. What OU (hate this acronym) or FE (hate this to) device is indeed out there that in any way can even hope to put the smallest of dents in the energy industry as it exist today? Really, what? MIB's or no MIB's, you are NOT going to be allowed to introduce ANY new source of energy to replace the current, (unless you allow for another 100 years for its phase in). PLEASE see the basics, NEW 1sq meter device produces 100kWhr with no fuel required. So what do we do with the energy service industry?, the production, support and scientific staff now employed by the existing infrastructure? Do we all chip in and put them on ware fare? I am going far to far here, but a little thought on the chain reaction says it will not happen even if it should.
Re: [Vo]: Electrolyzed hydrogen at half the cost
Hi Willis Yes thanks, the CRE, but on re-reading it just now they seem to be using too high a voltage. 12 volts onto a two plate cell? (That may be only a single test cell?..but..) http://www.stifflerscientific.com/ On that CRE circuit diagram it looks as if it will be pulsating saw-tooth DC. Are you in touch with them? They mention that they are conducting a number of experiments and promised a paper, due out now. It might help to clarify. Colin - Original Message - From: Willis Jenkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 5:37 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Electrolyzed hydrogen at half the cost Colin! If you are asking about the CRE approach (?), the answer is Yes, but!, CRE does have some limitations and those rap around the difference in AC and DC. As most will agree a capacitor is great for passing AC yet is a great storage device for DC. The CRE uses a capacitor in series with the charging (power source) to the electrolyzer and as such you will see the normal charge, discharge curve of the cap. Yet, during the electrolysis process when one stops the current flow by removing the source, the action in the cell does not stop, it will continue for some time (depending on plate type, spacing and if AC or DC is being applied). The original CRE's used a relay and switched about 0.25 Hz, the current versions use MOSFets and run 600 Hz. Solid state CRE's run at 50% +/-20%(depends on electrolyte) and on average show 135-180% over the sane input using filtered DC. The limitation's) is (are) proper selection and matching of cell structure (plate spacing and material), electrolyte, desired gas output and capacitor size and switch frequency. For high production cells it is not uncommon that you could be using 1 Farad or more, yet with split cell construction (where produced gas is combined) you could obtain the same output with say 5 smaller units with each having 1uf cap at a freq of 15,895 Hz. Please don't confuse what is stated as being some magic number tied to any other way out claim or idea, the figure I am stating are from working systems of various configuration which have different construction parms. Backing up some, the AC/DC diff comes into play in that the cell sustains evolution when power is removed, that in effect is the same as a reduced resistance when the pulses are passed through the cell. Should the pulse freq be below the cutoff point of the self sustained evolution (due to ion build up) then production will drop off sharply. Currently the StifflerScientifc lab had a simple yet effective CRE running that gets around the ion cloud around the electrodes. This is seem in a normal cell as the current rises at the start to a max point, then declines to the operational point. The new CRE allows the production to stay at it highest point by switching between a special electrode configuration. CRE makes use of both the AC component and the DC (may will regurgitate over this statement) yet it is proven by many systems on the market today that pulsing does indeed work better (for a number of reasons) than steady state DC (NO Stanley Meyer theory here). Sorry for a simple answer being so long,yet I have worked with many CRE designs and they are worth looking into.
Re: [Vo]: Electrolyzed hydrogen at half the cost
Willis, wouldn't the first thing to do- being to set the voltage into the endothermic region? And then adjust all the variables [one at a time] from that point? The voltage utilized was over 12 volts Ok. here it is. I found the reasoning for why that was done :-)) (to answer my own question) I was assuming a low resistance liquid, but now I note the electrolyte was water, not acid, salt or hydroxide. No solutions, just plain water. Very interesting. QUOTE: *Note I have found through many hours of experimentation that there is one and only one way to determine cell efficiency and that is to measure the actual production gas volume. It does not suffice to measure consumed power withing the cell. The consumed power is a valid parameter in overall efficiency, yet you need to measure gas output as you vary test parameters. When you find a maximum point of gas production, then compare cell power (input) with output. This is a critical fact when you are working with pulsed cells snipUNQUOTE The other sections of this web site are equally interesting. Incidently Willis, I ordered a set of those same graphite rods from graphitestore.com. They were very accomodating to my small order, and I thank you sir for that recommendation :) Cheers, Colin - Original Message - From: Colin Quinney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 9:10 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Electrolyzed hydrogen at half the cost Hi Willis Yes thanks, the CRE, but on re-reading it just now they seem to be using too high a voltage. 12 volts onto a two plate cell? (That may be only a single test cell?..but..) http://www.stifflerscientific.com/ On that CRE circuit diagram it looks as if it will be pulsating saw-tooth DC. Are you in touch with them? They mention that they are conducting a number of experiments and promised a paper, due out now. It might help to clarify. Colin - Original Message - From: Willis Jenkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 5:37 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Electrolyzed hydrogen at half the cost Colin! If you are asking about the CRE approach (?), the answer is Yes, but!, CRE does have some limitations and those rap around the difference in AC and DC. As most will agree a capacitor is great for passing AC yet is a great storage device for DC. The CRE uses a capacitor in series with the charging (power source) to the electrolyzer and as such you will see the normal charge, discharge curve of the cap. Yet, during the electrolysis process when one stops the current flow by removing the source, the action in the cell does not stop, it will continue for some time (depending on plate type, spacing and if AC or DC is being applied). The original CRE's used a relay and switched about 0.25 Hz, the current versions use MOSFets and run 600 Hz. Solid state CRE's run at 50% +/-20%(depends on electrolyte) and on average show 135-180% over the sane input using filtered DC. The limitation's) is (are) proper selection and matching of cell structure (plate spacing and material), electrolyte, desired gas output and capacitor size and switch frequency. For high production cells it is not uncommon that you could be using 1 Farad or more, yet with split cell construction (where produced gas is combined) you could obtain the same output with say 5 smaller units with each having 1uf cap at a freq of 15,895 Hz. Please don't confuse what is stated as being some magic number tied to any other way out claim or idea, the figure I am stating are from working systems of various configuration which have different construction parms. Backing up some, the AC/DC diff comes into play in that the cell sustains evolution when power is removed, that in effect is the same as a reduced resistance when the pulses are passed through the cell. Should the pulse freq be below the cutoff point of the self sustained evolution (due to ion build up) then production will drop off sharply. Currently the StifflerScientifc lab had a simple yet effective CRE running that gets around the ion cloud around the electrodes. This is seem in a normal cell as the current rises at the start to a max point, then declines to the operational point. The new CRE allows the production to stay at it highest point by switching between a special electrode configuration. CRE makes use of both the AC component and the DC (may will regurgitate over this statement) yet it is proven by many systems on the market today that pulsing does indeed work better (for a number of reasons) than steady state DC (NO Stanley Meyer theory here). Sorry for a simple answer being so long,yet I have worked with many CRE designs and they are worth looking into.
RE: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
Zell, Chris wrote: The problem with the examples you cite are that the industries that were overcome DID NOT see it coming- and so did not suppress the competition accordingly. Incorrect. In the examples I gave, everyone saw it coming, but they underestimated the extent of the changes. In the case of CF and free energy, ALL establishment scientists and industry leaders see nothing coming, because they have read nothing and they are 100% certain it is physically impossible, like a person jumping from the earth to the moon. IBM thought the future lay in hardware and Bill Gates knew differently. IBM made the most successful personal computer in history, and they tried to make a PC operating system but failed. They underestimated Gates, Dell and the others. US car companies did not foresee the decades long threat from Japan. They did not foresee they would lose. Everyone could see that VW and the Japanese were coming into the U.S. market. In the case of free energy, a dramatic discovery could get an inventor killed . . . I doubt it, but that can easily be prevented, by going 100% public and distributing thousands of copies of the plans via the Internet. There is no point to killing someone when there is no secret because thousands of people know about it. On the contrary, killing the inventor will only excite interest in the field. This happened when Gene was killed, even though his murder had nothing to do with MIB. With only a little excess energy reported from Cold Fusion, it isn't taken seriously (yet). It will not be taken seriously until it is far too late to prevent it from spreading to ten-thousand labs. As I said, the way things stand now, there is no chance an oil company exec or high official will become alarmed because they are all perfectly certain that CF is pathological nonsense. It has never crossed their minds that they might be wrong. Believe me, I have talked to these people, including Huizenga, Taubes, Park, and many others. They are as sure that CF and all other OU claims are physically impossible as I am certain that Newton's laws are correct (to the first approximation anyway), or -- to take a more controversial example -- as certain as I am that Darwinian evolution occured. I could no more convince them to look seriously at a paper by Storms, McKubre or Iwamura than a Creationist could convince me to look seriously at religion-based arguments. Such things are simply off the radar screen. Not worth a glance. Not logical arguments in any sense. You might a! s well try to convince me that 2 + 2 = 5. (Neo-Lamarkian theories are interesting and plausible, or at least scientific and refutable, but I think they are wrong.) I am sure that is how opponents all feel toward cold fusion. That is what they say, and I have no reason to doubt it. When Ralph Nader emerged as a sudden threat, GM sent out investigators against him. He was not making a technical claim that every scientist considers preposterous. He was making claims about cars that all of the auto manufacturers knew to be correct. That situation couldn't be more different. - Jed
Re: [Vo]: If you were Steorm, what would YOU do?
In reply to Willis Jenkin's message of Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:23:43 -0700: Hi, [snip] So what do we do with the energy service industry?, the production, support and scientific staff now employed by the existing infrastructure? Do we all chip in and put them on ware fare? I am going far to far here, but a little thought on the chain reaction says it will not happen even if it should. Production of new devices, conversion of existing ones, total recycling of all waste along with a total redesign and rebuilding of all industries and restoration of nature are going to create far more jobs than those eliminated. Not to mention those flowing forward from the opening up of the Solar system. Furthermore, with FE, all rocks automatically become potential sources of raw materials. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
