date:20120718

ChemE wrote:

"Is a hydrogen pinch equivalent to a bubble collapse in the Leclair
cavitation fusion?  

  Two glasses of wine led me to that conclusion."

 

That first line sounds like what would happen to you and your lady in a hot
tub after those two glasses of wine!

LoL

-Mark Iverson

 

From: Chemical Engineer [mailto:cheme...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 7:28 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

 

Is a hydrogen pinch equivalent to a bubble collapse in the Leclair
cavitation fusion?  Two glasses of wine led me to that conclusion.

RE: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

The following is all speculation, but I think it's pretty clear what when
down.

 

Due to Stremmenos' connections to the Greek govt, DGT obtained their funding
from the govt  --  Better to make deal with most desperate partner so one
doesn't have to give up much ownership - it's all about leverage.  However,
like any deal with the govt, there are major strings attached.  And one of
the strings was a deadline since the dire nature of the financial situation
made it very difficult for the govt connection to supply funds for very
long. Shit hits the fan:  Rossi wants a divorce!  And DGT is left with E-Cat
reactors which were not reliable and would go quiescent - definitely NOT
ready for commercialization -- so DGT needed to stall the govt while they
tried to solve the problems. "Just give us some more $ and some time, and
we'll hire the scientists and engineers and fix the problems ourselves!"
OK, DGT bought themselves another 6 months. This would also explain why they
were playing nice with Rossi even after the divorce - hoping they could
patch things up.  But this split, and the realization that Rossi would not
come back, was the extreme pressure causing DGT to take a peek at Rossi's
secret sauce.   More time goes by, DGT stalls with fancy mockup of a
finished unit to show they're almost there, but in reality, they are still
not ready for commercialization.  More time goes by. unrest in Greece
escalates. govt throws a hardball and DGT is given an ultimatum.  This
latest letter is DGT's threat back that they will simply pack up the lab and
move to another country if funding is stopped.  Also would explain why
Stremmenos abandoned DGT. in his mind, he had to select a side, and in his
estimation, Rossi was not quite as ugly as DGT/Greece.  

 

Who's got the leverage now, Greek govt or DGT?  Well, if DGT shows something
significant at ICCF, then Greek govt will kiss A$$, and DGT will probably be
staying in Greece.  Unless, someone makes them an offer they can't refuse!
J  This is way too exciting!!  The movie rights alone are worth millions.

 

-Mark  

 

 

From: Chemical Engineer [mailto:cheme...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 5:07 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

 

Just tell Defkalion to setup a US Company of which the Greek company will be
a subsidiary, call Stephen Chu and apply to the US Dept of Energy for a
$1.6B loan guarantee for independent green power production in California
(equivalent to 40, $40M license agreements).  Spend at least 5% of that loan
to lobby for more government money.  Defkalion's money woes will be solved
and the loan comes with a free Fisker Karma and an A123 fire breathing
battery pack(possibly LENR boosted) - I could not resist.

On Wednesday, July 18, 2012, Jed Rothwell wrote:

Jojo Jaro  > wrote:

 

My conclusion is:  This company is getting ready to abscond.  Correct me if
I'm wrong and argue from facts, not opinion.  I am willing to be wrong about
this.

 

No one outside the company can know whether you are right or wrong. None of
us has any facts to go on. You are speculating. Guessing, in other words. It
is perfectly okay to do that, but you should not confuse guessing with
arguing from facts.

 

I agree this makes them look bad. But appearances are not facts.

 

There is nothing wrong with you reaching a conclusion based on guesswork and
appearances. People often do that. They are often forced to do that,
especially in business, warfare and love. You have to be careful and
remember that you might be wrong. The oldest and best technique in warfare
is to give a false impression and deceive the enemy into reaching a
conclusion based on appearances rather than actual facts. See, for example,
Sun Tzu, "The Art of War." That was written circa 256 BC. It is just as
valid and useful today as it ever was.

 

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

What you have is a resonant cavity, with phonons. The compression will be
done by mechanic waves, coupled with EM waves. The infrared waves are 4
order of magnitude bigger than the cavity. So, you could have quite a few
billion of atoms in phase due the relatively large infrared waves.

2012/7/19 Eric Walker 

>
> I take back that thought about violent collapse of the walls.  Maybe the
> collapse would be violent; or maybe it would be gradual, occurring as the
> walls soften and current passes through as a result of superconductivity (I
> was thinking DC, but it might be AC).  If the collapse was gradual, you
> would get a steady increase in pressure.  You might also get some
> interesting things happening with the frequency of the resonant light.
>
> Eric
>
>


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

I wrote:

But when it appears, you would get a z-pinch effect, as happens in a
> lightening rod, and the walls of the containing wire would violently
> collapse in on the cavity.  What happens to a lightening rod is fairly
> dramatic:
>
>
> http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/images/content/about/Fig_3_crushed_rod_final.jpg
>

I take back that thought about violent collapse of the walls.  Maybe the
collapse would be violent; or maybe it would be gradual, occurring as the
walls soften and current passes through as a result of superconductivity (I
was thinking DC, but it might be AC).  If the collapse was gradual, you
would get a steady increase in pressure.  You might also get some
interesting things happening with the frequency of the resonant light.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

I think the smallest CNT cannot do it, but a small cavity of 0.8nm within a
lattice, with a few dozens of H can do it. 10 million bars is not out of
the realm o chemical energy if you synchronize the movement a few
hundreds of Ni atoms, to compress that cavity.

2012/7/19 Eric Walker 

>
> Some back-of-the-envelope calculations would help to know whether this is
> within the realms of possibility or of fantasy.  I'm still sifting through
> the math.
>
> Eric
>
>


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

I rather believe in you! Not Rossi :)

2012/7/19 Chemical Engineer 

> Ok, I am off by the normal amount that Rossi is, and people still believe
> him!
>
>
>
-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

Ok, I am off by the normal amount that Rossi is, and people still believe
him!

On Wednesday, July 18, 2012, Daniel Rocha wrote:

> For hot fusion, what is needed is 100 million K! 20K is only 2eV. It
> doesn't even ionize H properly.
>
> 2012/7/19 Chemical Engineer  'cvml', 'cheme...@gmail.com');>>
>
>> Bubbles feel the heat
>>
>> Mar 3, 2005
>>
>> Physicists have seen a region of plasma in a single-bubble
>> sonoluminescence experiment for the first time. They have also found that
>> the temperature inside the bubble can reach up to 20,000 K (D Flannigan and
>> K Suslick 2005 *Nature* *434*52).
>>
>> 20,000 K seems pretty hot to me. I was hoping you had come up with grand
>> unification theory of cold fusion...
>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com  'danieldi...@gmail.com');>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 12:39 PM, David Roberson  wrote:

 Interesting idea.  Are you thinking of the protons being ejected from the
> CNT like toothpaste as the outer surface is compressed?
>
> I assume you are referring to the large current as being a large time
> changing current instead of a DC one.
>

I'm thinking of a long, narrow, hollow nickel wire that is closed off at
the ends, which are in contact with surrounding substrate. Following are
images of sintered nickel, for example.  These are probably larger than
what I am thinking of, which might be contained within such structures.

http://www.pall.com/images/Microelectronics/mic_fg_nick_fig8.gif
http://www2.electronicproducts.com/images2/f43molte0301.gif
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnt/2012/396269.fig.001.jpg

The wire in this instance would be packed with hydrogen.  The ambient
infrared in the substrate would be upshifted when it enters the cavity of
the hollow wire to a frequency that is sufficient for ionization of the
hydrogen.  Perhaps superconductivity is brought about in the walls through
resonant or lasing light.  Perhaps the heat of the resonance weakens the
walls, and the structural integrity of the wire starts to
become compromised.  Some of this is just my imagination filling in the
details, like you would if you were preparing the scene for a movie.

In a very short period of time, something induces a strong current.
 Perhaps a current is nearly unavoidable if superconductivity has been
brought about.  In an electrolytic cell, it's clear where the current might
come from.  In an ambient experiment involving zeolites, it's unclear where
the current would come from.  But when it appears, you would get a z-pinch
effect, as happens in a lightening rod, and the walls of the containing
wire would violently collapse in on the cavity.  What happens to a
lightening rod is fairly dramatic:

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/images/content/about/Fig_3_crushed_rod_final.jpg

I have no opinion on metallic hydrogen, although the thought is an
interesting one.  In order to have it, I think you would need the right
combination of temperature and pressure.  I am thinking that the
temperature would be very high (from the EUV or x-ray lasing) and a strong
pressure brought about through the loading and then the collapse of the
wire.  I believe fusion can occur throughout a broad continuum of pressures
and temperatures, and that if you don't have enough pressure, you can
increase the temperature.  I read somewhere that the pressure in a tokamak
is quite low.  So these are two parameters that we can play around with and
adjust to get the results we like.

The protons would react with themselves and with the walls of the
containing wire.  The bulk of the energy would come from the proton-proton
chain.

Some back-of-the-envelope calculations would help to know whether this is
within the realms of possibility or of fantasy.  I'm still sifting through
the math.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

For hot fusion, what is needed is 100 million K! 20K is only 2eV. It
doesn't even ionize H properly.

2012/7/19 Chemical Engineer 

> Bubbles feel the heat
>
> Mar 3, 2005
>
> Physicists have seen a region of plasma in a single-bubble
> sonoluminescence experiment for the first time. They have also found that
> the temperature inside the bubble can reach up to 20,000 K (D Flannigan and
> K Suslick 2005 *Nature* *434*52).
>
> 20,000 K seems pretty hot to me. I was hoping you had come up with grand
> unification theory of cold fusion...
>
>>
>>


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:principles of DGTG 's technology


That would be a good plan to end up with helium 4.  The binding energy released 
once you get to that element is enormous.

The proton-proton reaction does not leave me with too much concern since the 
strong nuclear force is far dominate over the coulomb force.  The only reason 
that I see for a problem with the proton-proton reaction is that this 
combination might not be capable of holding together long enough for the weak 
force to have time to perform its conversion of one of the protons into a 
neutron by beta plus decay.  Obviously it works within stellar domains.  The 2 
nucleon combination of hydrogen 2 is stable so the other 2 possible 
combinations must decay into it if they have time.  The fact that deuterium is 
stable proves that it is the lowest energy combination of the three which is a 
good thing since it would decay otherwise.

I agree we are stuck with those nasty 511 keV gammas if the beta plus decay 
occurs.  I believe that Dr. Storms avoids that problem by allowing an electron 
to be captured by one of the protons just as the fusion event occurs but I do 
not understand how that would pan out.  It certainly would be advantageous from 
a shielding point of view to have his electron very close by during the process 
as the coulomb barrier would vanish entirely if the electron becomes space 
coherent with one of the protons.

Unfortunately, the proton capture by a nickel atom will generally result in the 
beta plus decay mechanism as the unstable copper atoms decay.  If you pick the 
nickel isotopes carefully, that can be avoided.  That is why Rossi talks of 
using Ni62 and Ni64 in his fuel mix.

I was not aware that the sun did not give up gammas as it would seem that the 
enormous activity in its outer atmosphere would generate some of them by 
itself.  I suspect that most of the fusion within the sun does occur near the 
center due to the extreme pressure and temperature expected there.  We do 
receive a large number of neutrinos from the beta plus decays that are 
expected.  Any 511 keV gammas would most likely be lost far inside the sun but 
they would have to exist I think.

It is an excellent idea to review the one really good model that we have which 
is the sun in your search for the ideal reaction.

Dave



-Original Message-
From: Eric Walker 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:52 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:principles of DGTG 's technology


On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 1:14 PM, David Roberson  wrote:



Are you considering an additional fusion reaction to follow up on the initial 
one discussed to use the hydrogen fuel more efficiently?  If there is anyway to 
end up with helium 4, that problem would vaporize.




That's right -- I'm thinking the proton-proton chain would carry all the way to 
4He.  It would require passage through the mysterious diproton reaction, and we 
would have to suffer the 511 keV gammas somehow (perhaps they end up being 
useful or critical in some way).  But the reaction would result in helium at 
the end of it, just like the sun, although I'm not thinking anywhere near full 
conversion of the hydrogen would occur.



I assume there would also be some proton capture with the surrounding substrate 
and with impurities.  Proton capture is generally pretty clean, I think.



An interesting point is that no gammas are given off by the sun.  The current 
explanation is that the fusion occurs in the core and that the gammas will have 
been dissipated by the time they reach the outer layers, where fusion is 
understood to not take place.  But I wonder how many explanations of this sort 
go back to a hallway conversation somewhere in 1940, where the people talking 
decided to follow up with further research, but they never did, and no one came 
up with a better explanation, so the origins of the existing explanation were 
forgotten and the understanding took on an air of fact.


Eric

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

Bubbles feel the heat

Mar 3, 2005

Physicists have seen a region of plasma in a single-bubble sonoluminescence
experiment for the first time. They have also found that the temperature
inside the bubble can reach up to 20,000 K (D Flannigan and K Suslick 2005 *
Nature* *434*52).

20,000 K seems pretty hot to me. I was hoping you had come up with grand
unification theory of cold fusion...

On Wednesday, July 18, 2012, Daniel Rocha wrote:

> Cavitation is common in very turbulent streams, there are indeed some
> reasonable qualitative explanations for it.
>
>
> http://www.turbulence-online.com/Publications/Journal_Papers/Papers/AG78.pdf
>
>
> Sonofusion is a bit different. It might involve the high pressures, not
> sure how high. But the temperature is nowhere near the needed for hot
> fusion.
>
> 2012/7/18 Chemical Engineer  'cvml', 'cheme...@gmail.com');>>
>
>> Leclair claims it is the collapsing of the bubbles (created in his case
>> by cavitation from an impeller or laser) that triggers the fusion so I
>> think the end result is the same as in sonofusion.  I think we should all
>> share the nobel prize, next problem?
>>
>> --
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com  'danieldi...@gmail.com');>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

Cavitation is common in very turbulent streams, there are indeed some
reasonable qualitative explanations for it.

http://www.turbulence-online.com/Publications/Journal_Papers/Papers/AG78.pdf


Sonofusion is a bit different. It might involve the high pressures, not
sure how high. But the temperature is nowhere near the needed for hot
fusion.

2012/7/18 Chemical Engineer 

> Leclair claims it is the collapsing of the bubbles (created in his case by
> cavitation from an impeller or laser) that triggers the fusion so I think
> the end result is the same as in sonofusion.  I think we should all share
> the nobel prize, next problem?
>
> --
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:principles of DGTG 's technology

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 1:14 PM, David Roberson  wrote:

 Are you considering an additional fusion reaction to follow up on the
> initial one discussed to use the hydrogen fuel more efficiently?  If there
> is anyway to end up with helium 4, that problem would vaporize.
>

That's right -- I'm thinking the proton-proton chain would carry all the
way to 4He.  It would require passage through the mysterious diproton
reaction, and we would have to suffer the 511 keV gammas somehow (perhaps
they end up being useful or critical in some way).  But the reaction would
result in helium at the end of it, just like the sun, although I'm not
thinking anywhere near full conversion of the hydrogen would occur.

I assume there would also be some proton capture with the surrounding
substrate and with impurities.  Proton capture is generally pretty clean, I
think.

An interesting point is that no gammas are given off by the sun.  The
current explanation is that the fusion occurs in the core and that the
gammas will have been dissipated by the time they reach the outer layers,
where fusion is understood to not take place.  But I wonder how many
explanations of this sort go back to a hallway conversation somewhere in
1940, where the people talking decided to follow up with further research,
but they never did, and no one came up with a better explanation, so the
origins of the existing explanation were forgotten and the understanding
took on an air of fact.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

Leclair claims it is the collapsing of the bubbles (created in his case by
cavitation from an impeller or laser) that triggers the fusion so I think
the end result is the same as in sonofusion.  I think we should all share
the nobel prize, next problem?

On Wednesday, July 18, 2012, Daniel Rocha wrote:

> Not sure about Leclair. In that case, the excess power could be due to a
> reduced resistance of the liquid. Cavitation creates bubbles of vapor that
> might decrease the shear of the flux layers in the pipes.
>
> I think it is more likely to be related to sonofusion:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusi_Taleyarkhan
>
>
>
> 2012/7/18 Chemical Engineer  'cvml', 'cheme...@gmail.com');>>
>
>> Is a hydrogen pinch equivalent to a bubble collapse in the Leclair
>> cavitation fusion?  Two glasses of wine led me to that conclusion.
>>
>>
>>
> --
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com  'danieldi...@gmail.com');>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

Not sure about Leclair. In that case, the excess power could be due to a
reduced resistance of the liquid. Cavitation creates bubbles of vapor that
might decrease the shear of the flux layers in the pipes.

I think it is more likely to be related to sonofusion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusi_Taleyarkhan



2012/7/18 Chemical Engineer 

> Is a hydrogen pinch equivalent to a bubble collapse in the Leclair
> cavitation fusion?  Two glasses of wine led me to that conclusion.
>
>
>
-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

They are still busy deciding on the electric car's future...

On Wednesday, July 18, 2012, Terry Blanton wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Craig Brown 
> >
> wrote:
> > How much longer can this continue until there is some proper 3rd party
> > validation.
>
> Until Standard Oil of NJ approves.  :-)
>
> T
>
>

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

Is a hydrogen pinch equivalent to a bubble collapse in the Leclair
cavitation fusion?  Two glasses of wine led me to that conclusion.

On Wednesday, July 18, 2012, Daniel Rocha wrote:

> Yes, for the 1st question. To the second question, there is nothing
> against it, but a a pinch is rare occurrence, so, it is unlike that they
> will happen all close to each other.
>
> Small clusters are in general less bound than lattices. Metallic hydrogen
> is less bound. So, after you form these nano clusters, it is likely that
> they will evaporate, decompose. If a cluster of 4 hydrogen detach, it will
> collapse and fuse. Note the following: part of the vaporizing of the
> metallic hydrogen fuses. This is  what is called *heat-after-death*. It
> lasts until the metallic hydrogen is vaporized. When it ends, you have to
> create more metallic hydrogen by turning whatever the device.
>
> 2012/7/18 David Roberson  'dlrober...@aol.com');>>
>
>>  You mention small spots of superconductivity.  Does that suggest that
>> each tiny metallic hydrogen group must maintain its conductivity separate
>> from the others?  Why are they not able to contact each other to result in
>> much lower overall resistance?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>  -Original Message-
>> From: Daniel Rocha > 'danieldi...@gmail.com');>>
>> To: vortex-l > 'vortex-l@eskimo.com');>>
>> Sent: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:51 am
>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression
>>
>> This is an interesting thing, which I also thought about some time ago, I
>> also think z-pinch is involved. Even more, the extreme pressure could cause
>> the formation of metallic hydrogen, an allotrope of hydrogen, (diamond and
>> graphite are allotropes of carbon) ich is conjectured to be superconductive
>> up to 700K.
>>
>>  So, that fall in resistance could be explained by small spots of
>> superconductivity. Takahashi's TSC can be seen a kind of a cluster of
>> metallic hydrogen. TSC itself collapses and causes CF.
>>
>>  Note that in none of this there is new physics. Metallic hydrogen is
>> conventionally used to explain Jupiter's intense magnetic field. Metallic
>> Hydrogen is conjectured to be a superconductor at room temperature since
>> the 60's. It's stability at null pressure can be simulated by molecular
>> orbital calculations. TSC's is relatively simple molecule.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com  'danieldi...@gmail.com');>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

*Metallic hydrogen is even less stable than usual metallic bounds.


2012/7/18 Daniel Rocha 

> *Metallic hydrogen is less bound.
>
> --
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

Yes, for the 1st question. To the second question, there is nothing against
it, but a a pinch is rare occurrence, so, it is unlike that they will
happen all close to each other.

Small clusters are in general less bound than lattices. Metallic hydrogen
is less bound. So, after you form these nano clusters, it is likely that
they will evaporate, decompose. If a cluster of 4 hydrogen detach, it will
collapse and fuse. Note the following: part of the vaporizing of the
metallic hydrogen fuses. This is  what is called *heat-after-death*. It
lasts until the metallic hydrogen is vaporized. When it ends, you have to
create more metallic hydrogen by turning whatever the device.

2012/7/18 David Roberson 

> You mention small spots of superconductivity.  Does that suggest that each
> tiny metallic hydrogen group must maintain its conductivity separate from
> the others?  Why are they not able to contact each other to result in much
> lower overall resistance?
>
> Dave
>
>
>  -Original Message-
> From: Daniel Rocha 
> To: vortex-l 
> Sent: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:51 am
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression
>
> This is an interesting thing, which I also thought about some time ago, I
> also think z-pinch is involved. Even more, the extreme pressure could cause
> the formation of metallic hydrogen, an allotrope of hydrogen, (diamond and
> graphite are allotropes of carbon) ich is conjectured to be superconductive
> up to 700K.
>
>  So, that fall in resistance could be explained by small spots of
> superconductivity. Takahashi's TSC can be seen a kind of a cluster of
> metallic hydrogen. TSC itself collapses and causes CF.
>
>  Note that in none of this there is new physics. Metallic hydrogen is
> conventionally used to explain Jupiter's intense magnetic field. Metallic
> Hydrogen is conjectured to be a superconductor at room temperature since
> the 60's. It's stability at null pressure can be simulated by molecular
> orbital calculations. TSC's is relatively simple molecule.
>



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

2012-07-18 Thread Terry Blanton

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Craig Brown  wrote:
> How much longer can this continue until there is some proper 3rd party
> validation.

Until Standard Oil of NJ approves.  :-)

T

RE: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

2012-07-18 Thread Craig Brown

How much longer can this continue until there is some proper 3rd party validation.

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)
From: David Roberson 
Date: Thu, July 19, 2012 10:03 am
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com

 I have to question their earlier statements that they have hundreds of investors in as many countries.  Why do they not have sufficient funds if this is true?  Something is rotten in the state of "(fill in the state)".  Someone correct me if I have their statement mixed up with another entity.    Dave-Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell  To: vortex-l  Sent: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)   Frank Acland  wrote:  Jed, on your point 2 -- to me they seem not be saying they base their claims on the cold fusion experiments of others. They said "NASA, US Navy, publicly traded companies from America, Canada, Germany and England and universities abroad have visited us and have turned their attention to our achievements."    Ah. You are quite right. I misunderstood. They are not trying to invoke or borrow NASA's own experiments to bolster their legitimacy. The translation is difficult. It is probably done by machine.   Let me move the goal posts elsewhere, but restate the general idea. We must wait for them to publish an independent evaluation from NASA or the U.S. Navy or what-have-you. Until they do that, I think it is unwise for them to invoke these organizations, or use their visits as a means to claim legitimacy.   Perhaps they mean they have shown the results to the Greek government and they are disappointed in the response.  From this rather poor translation, it seems that DGT are saying that they have got the attention of important visitors -- but they can't get investments operating out of Greece.I see. But as I said, it is not reasonable to expect an investment from the Greek government, if that is what they had in mind. Greece is in a severe economic crisis, as everyone knows.   - Jed

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

Just tell Defkalion to setup a US Company of which the Greek company will
be a subsidiary, call Stephen Chu and apply to the US Dept of Energy for a
$1.6B loan guarantee for independent green power production in California
(equivalent to 40, $40M license agreements).  Spend at least 5% of that
loan to lobby for more government money.  Defkalion's money woes will be
solved and the loan comes with a free Fisker Karma and an A123 fire
breathing battery pack(possibly LENR boosted) - I could not resist.

On Wednesday, July 18, 2012, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Jojo Jaro  'jth...@hotmail.com');>> wrote:
>
> My conclusion is:  This company is getting ready to abscond.  Correct me
>> if I'm wrong and argue from facts, not opinion.  I am willing to be wrong
>> about this.
>>
>
> No one outside the company can know whether you are right or wrong. None
> of us has any facts to go on. You are speculating. Guessing, in other
> words. It is perfectly okay to do that, but you should not confuse guessing
> with arguing from facts.
>
> I agree this makes them look bad. But appearances are not facts.
>
> There is nothing wrong with you reaching a conclusion based on guesswork
> and appearances. People often do that. They are often forced to do that,
> especially in business, warfare and love. You have to be careful and
> remember that you might be wrong. The oldest and best technique in warfare
> is to give a false impression and deceive the enemy into reaching a
> conclusion based on appearances rather than actual facts. See, for example,
> Sun Tzu, "The Art of War." That was written circa 256 BC. It is just as
> valid and useful today as it ever was.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

I have to question their earlier statements that they have hundreds of 
investors in as many countries.  Why do they not have sufficient funds if this 
is true?  Something is rotten in the state of "(fill in the state)".  Someone 
correct me if I have their statement mixed up with another entity. 

Dave

-Original Message-
From: Jed Rothwell 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 6:53 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

Frank Acland  wrote:

Jed, on your point 2 -- to me they seem not be saying they base their claims on 
the cold fusion experiments of others. They said "NASA, US Navy, publicly 
traded companies from America, Canada, Germany and England and universities 
abroad have visited us and have turned their attention to our achievements." 

Ah. You are quite right. I misunderstood. They are not trying to invoke or 
borrow NASA's own experiments to bolster their legitimacy. The translation is 
difficult. It is probably done by machine.

Let me move the goal posts elsewhere, but restate the general idea. We must 
wait for them to publish an independent evaluation from NASA or the U.S. Navy 
or what-have-you. Until they do that, I think it is unwise for them to invoke 
these organizations, or use their visits as a means to claim legitimacy.

Perhaps they mean they have shown the results to the Greek government and they 
are disappointed in the response.

>From this rather poor translation, it seems that DGT are saying that they have 
>got the attention of important visitors -- but they can't get investments 
>operating out of Greece.

I see. But as I said, it is not reasonable to expect an investment from the 
Greek government, if that is what they had in mind. Greece is in a severe 
economic crisis, as everyone knows.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

Jojo Jaro  wrote:

My conclusion is:  This company is getting ready to abscond.  Correct me if
> I'm wrong and argue from facts, not opinion.  I am willing to be wrong
> about this.
>

No one outside the company can know whether you are right or wrong. None of
us has any facts to go on. You are speculating. Guessing, in other words.
It is perfectly okay to do that, but you should not confuse guessing with
arguing from facts.

I agree this makes them look bad. But appearances are not facts.

There is nothing wrong with you reaching a conclusion based on guesswork
and appearances. People often do that. They are often forced to do that,
especially in business, warfare and love. You have to be careful and
remember that you might be wrong. The oldest and best technique in warfare
is to give a false impression and deceive the enemy into reaching a
conclusion based on appearances rather than actual facts. See, for example,
Sun Tzu, "The Art of War." That was written circa 256 BC. It is just as
valid and useful today as it ever was.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

Frank Acland  wrote:

Jed, on your point 2 -- to me they seem not be saying they base their
> claims on the cold fusion experiments of others. They said "NASA, US Navy,
> publicly traded companies from America, Canada, Germany and England and
> universities abroad* have visited us and have turned their attention to
> our achievements." *

Ah. You are quite right. I misunderstood. They are not trying to invoke or
borrow NASA's own experiments to bolster their legitimacy. The translation
is difficult. It is probably done by machine.

Let me move the goal posts elsewhere, but restate the general idea. We must
wait for them to publish an independent evaluation from NASA or the U.S.
Navy or what-have-you. Until they do that, I think it is unwise for them to
invoke these organizations, or use their visits as a means to claim
legitimacy.

Perhaps they mean they have shown the results to the Greek government and
they are disappointed in the response.

>From this rather poor translation, it seems that DGT are saying that they
> have got the attention of important visitors -- but they can't get
> investments operating out of Greece.
>

I see. But as I said, it is not reasonable to expect an investment from the
Greek government, if that is what they had in mind. Greece is in a severe
economic crisis, as everyone knows.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

2012-07-18 Thread Frank Acland

Jed, on your point 2 -- to me they seem not be saying they base their
claims on the cold fusion experiments of others. They said "NASA, US Navy,
publicly traded companies from America, Canada, Germany and England and
universities abroad* have visited us and have turned their attention to our
achievements." *
*
*
>From this rather poor translation, it seems that DGT are saying that they
have got the attention of important visitors -- but they can't get
investments operating out of Greece.

Best,

Frank

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Akira Shirakawa  wrote:
>
>>
>> To put it bluntly, it looks like a last call for potential investors,
>> implicitly urging them to hurry and take advantage of this opportunity
>> before DGTG will go elsewhere.
>
>
> This statement gives me a bad impression as well, for two reasons:
>
> 1. The letter seems to be saying the Greek government should subsidize
> them or they will leave.  It says, ". . . while not receiving any
> government support on our efforts, so far on our vision Greece was
> first." It is hard to imagine the Greek government is in a position to
> subsidize anything at the moment. Certainly not a controversial claim such
> as cold fusion! If their business plan is predicated on getting help from
> the Greek government I think it will fail.
>
> 2. They are invoking cold fusion experiments at "NASA, US Navy, publicly
> traded companies from America" as proof of their own claims. The
> experiments at NASA, the Navy and elsewhere are very different from those
> claimed by Defkalion. I am willing to give Defkalion the benefit of the
> doubt because I know that cold fusion exists, but they will have to publish
> independent proof of their claims before I will have confidence that this
> particular version of cold fusion is real, and not experimental error.
>
> Their claims are reportedly quite different from Rossi's. So Defkalion
> cannot even invoke Rossi's tests as proof. Those tests were very poorly
> done, in any case. Rossi's tests would be a weak reed even if Defkalion
> claimed they have an exact copy of his reactor.
>
> - Jed
>
>


-- 
Frank Acland
Publisher, E-Cat World 
Author, The Secret Power Beneath

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

2012-07-18 Thread Jojo Jaro

If DGT really had a reactor that is close to commercialization; that produce 
commercial level power and temps, don't you think people will rush to 
license their technology.


What happened to those groups that tested the reactor.  Why aren't they 
rushing to invest?  Xanthoulis' statement seems to indicate that nobody is 
investing, which does not make sense if they have something close to 
commercialization.


My conclusion is:  This company is getting ready to abscond.  Correct me if 
I'm wrong and argue from facts, not opinion.  I am willing to be wrong about 
this.



Jojo



- Original Message - 
From: "Akira Shirakawa" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)



On 2012-07-18 23:01, Andre Blum wrote:

according to http://lenrnews.eu/?p=113, DGTG is considering to leave
Greece.

Source is unclear and we are used to better English from Xanthoulis.
Maybe this is a translation by someone from a Greek letter.


Wording aside (it appears it's a translation from Greek), the content of 
this email doesn't really seem to come from a company reportedly almost 
ready to commercialize a revolutionary product, does it?


To put it bluntly, it looks like a last call for potential investors, 
implicitly urging them to hurry and take advantage of this opportunity 
before DGTG will go elsewhere. Incidentally, this is a known investment 
scam tactic, often used as a last move before the scammer disappears into 
oblivion.


This doesn't look good at all and probably will make many wonder if DGTG 
have been bluffing all along about their status and their upcoming 
products, or in other words, that Stremmenos and Rossi were right about 
them.


In my opinion this email is highly damaging for DGTG.
Its authenticity should be verified as soon as possible.
Its authors should also take full responsibility for it, if it's a fake.

Cheers,
S.A.

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

Akira Shirakawa  wrote:

>
> To put it bluntly, it looks like a last call for potential investors,
> implicitly urging them to hurry and take advantage of this opportunity
> before DGTG will go elsewhere.

This statement gives me a bad impression as well, for two reasons:

1. The letter seems to be saying the Greek government should subsidize them
or they will leave.  It says, ". . . while not receiving any government
support on our efforts, so far on our vision Greece was first." It is hard
to imagine the Greek government is in a position to subsidize anything at
the moment. Certainly not a controversial claim such as cold fusion! If
their business plan is predicated on getting help from the Greek government
I think it will fail.

2. They are invoking cold fusion experiments at "NASA, US Navy, publicly
traded companies from America" as proof of their own claims. The
experiments at NASA, the Navy and elsewhere are very different from those
claimed by Defkalion. I am willing to give Defkalion the benefit of the
doubt because I know that cold fusion exists, but they will have to publish
independent proof of their claims before I will have confidence that this
particular version of cold fusion is real, and not experimental error.

Their claims are reportedly quite different from Rossi's. So Defkalion
cannot even invoke Rossi's tests as proof. Those tests were very poorly
done, in any case. Rossi's tests would be a weak reed even if Defkalion
claimed they have an exact copy of his reactor.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

2012-07-18 Thread Randy Wuller

Seems to me, Peter Gluck may be the one to ask.  

- Original Message - 
From: "Akira Shirakawa" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

On 2012-07-18 23:01, Andre Blum wrote:

according to http://lenrnews.eu/?p=113, DGTG is considering to leave
Greece.

Source is unclear and we are used to better English from Xanthoulis.
Maybe this is a translation by someone from a Greek letter.

Wording aside (it appears it's a translation from Greek), the content of 
this email doesn't really seem to come from a company reportedly almost 
ready to commercialize a revolutionary product, does it?

To put it bluntly, it looks like a last call for potential investors, 
implicitly urging them to hurry and take advantage of this opportunity 
before DGTG will go elsewhere. Incidentally, this is a known investment 
scam tactic, often used as a last move before the scammer disappears 
into oblivion.

This doesn't look good at all and probably will make many wonder if DGTG 
have been bluffing all along about their status and their upcoming 
products, or in other words, that Stremmenos and Rossi were right about 
them.

In my opinion this email is highly damaging for DGTG.
Its authenticity should be verified as soon as possible.
Its authors should also take full responsibility for it, if it's a fake.

Cheers,
S.A.

Re: [Vo]:principles of DGTG 's technology

2012-07-18 Thread Guenter Wildgruber

Jed,
...This is a nuclear reactor...

we do not differ by much.

This (non)-demonstration would show how far they are wrt regulations.
Not far, I guess.
The regulatory procedures are quite different in say 100 countries, 30 of them 
maybe akin to 'first world'.
Who does it?
DGTG?
Probably not, up to now and not in tthe forseeable future.

The licensees?
Probably not, as long as they do not have deep knowledge. Which nearly by 
definition they cannot have.
40mio for 300k Hyperions is some real money.

Please understand my proposal as provocative.
DGT could do the presentation somewhere outside in an empty fabrication hall. 

This would be not all that exotic.

Promoting a device, which is claimed to be inherently save, must be 
demonstrated somehow.
How is ist done in the REAL world?
I honestly do not know. 
This is a boostrap-problem.

Peter Gluck advanced the issue considerably, but quite some mysteries remain. 

And he is an honest man, whom I respect a lot.

Is some vague association to WL-theory sufficient to please the doubters?
I doubt that.
There have been eg attempts to stop the CERN-LHC-Higgs-Boson experiment, 
because of the risk that black holes might be generated. The orthodox 
scientific community finally prevailed, because their theory seemed sound 
enough.
Orthodoxy 99.x% vs doubters 0.x%.

Now with LENR this is different: This is a 1%-issue against the 99% orthodoxy.

Does anybody believe that a contested issue like that conquers the world market 
in a storm?
I dont.

This is a complicated 'tri'alectic between practice-theory- society in the 
works.

DGTG has to go into the offensive here, if they have something substantial, 
with some quirks like (from Peter)

...
Radiation measurements:The experimental situation is excellent: no
dangerous radiation!
However, there is some radiation emitted. I have seen a lot of measurements
performed both with NaI spectrometer and Geiger Muller counter and all confirm
that a somewhat higher level appears only at triggering. The gammas have a
relatively low energy, 50-300 keV. The maximum levels are under those
internationally admissible.Is this a proof that the W-L mechanism (gammas
converted to IR photons - is true and at work? We will see it soon.
...

Well. They cannot, but they must have SOME theory! 

This is up to the scientific community to decide, which cannot decide if the 
process is nondisclosed and therefore cannot be not understood/ reproduced. F/P 
reloaded.
Every society must have an underlying belief, which, in our case is the 
scientific method, which is deeply challenged by LENR.
Unresolved.

A tricky situation.

(please note: my arguments are probabilistic, not yes-no. There are black swans 
out there. But riding one of those rare creatures is a difficult issue indeed.) 

Guenter

 Von: Jed Rothwell 
An: "vortex-l@eskimo.com"  
Gesendet: 23:34 Dienstag, 17.Juli 2012
Betreff: Re: [Vo]:principles of DGTG 's technology

Guenter Wildgruber  wrote:

The simplest thing would be to show  a working Hyperion during the two days. 
not disclosing anything.
>It would be  easy to set up such a demonstration, because their claimed COP is 
>above any doubt, and this is not a milliwatt isue!
>Just make coffee or tea with the Hyperion...
>THIS would be a demonstration! 
>
>Physical!

I do not think any first-world government would allow a demonstration of this 
nature in a conference hall. I do not think the device has not been tested by 
the Korean version of UL or by any government safety agency yet. In the modern 
world, you cannot just run a kilowatt-scale power reactor in front of a group 
of people in a public space. This is not 1850.

This is a nuclear reactor. It will have to be carefully, extensively tested 
before it can be used in public. It will be tested in fully equipped 
laboratories first. Even if it was a new kind of combustion reactor you could 
not set it up and run it in front of a crowd of people without first getting a 
license and inspection. You can't even run a conventional boiler in an 
apartment building basement without that!

Modern life is filled with red tape. Everywhere you turn there are rules and 
regulations about every last little thing. Read history, and you will see the 
wisdom of this. Life is safer and better thanks to all these rules. But the 
rules are aggravating.

Your expectations are highly unrealistic.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

2012-07-18 Thread Akira Shirakawa


On 2012-07-18 23:01, Andre Blum wrote:

according to http://lenrnews.eu/?p=113, DGTG is considering to leave
Greece.

Source is unclear and we are used to better English from Xanthoulis.
Maybe this is a translation by someone from a Greek letter.


Wording aside (it appears it's a translation from Greek), the content of 
this email doesn't really seem to come from a company reportedly almost 
ready to commercialize a revolutionary product, does it?


To put it bluntly, it looks like a last call for potential investors, 
implicitly urging them to hurry and take advantage of this opportunity 
before DGTG will go elsewhere. Incidentally, this is a known investment 
scam tactic, often used as a last move before the scammer disappears 
into oblivion.


This doesn't look good at all and probably will make many wonder if DGTG 
have been bluffing all along about their status and their upcoming 
products, or in other words, that Stremmenos and Rossi were right about 
them.


In my opinion this email is highly damaging for DGTG.
Its authenticity should be verified as soon as possible.
Its authors should also take full responsibility for it, if it's a fake.

Cheers,
S.A.

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

Randy Wuller  wrote:

> In any event, the current notion of austerity is nonsense and is tied to a
> tired and outdated concept that money is real or has some intrinsic real
> value which it doesn't.  Austerity = Stupidity . . .

I know little about economics, but I agree. It seems to me that money is a
counter, like a poker chip, and you should make as much as you need, except
when that causes excessive inflation.

In general I am suspicious of any social or economic policy that it
grounded in the notion that people are not suffering enough, or that we
need more misery to improve the situation. I have read a lot of history and
looked carefully at the world. I have met many people in different walks of
life, in different countries. I have never noted that ordinary people seem
too well off, too healthy, well educated or too happy for their own good.
Most people struggle to live a decent life with what I consider
few luxuries. I do not see how it could help to make life even more
restricted and less secure for ordinary people.

I also deplore the attitude that wealth is bad for you -- or bad for other
people, is how it usually goes. As I said in the book: "I despise the
notion that poverty is ennobling, or that people want material things
because they are greedy or decadent. Everyone on earth who wants a car
should have a car. Or a dozen cars, a home movie theater, and a Jacuzzi.
Cars are made of iron, and we have unlimited amounts of iron in the solar
system."

Paul Krugman is probably the most prominent economist who says that
austerity is a bad idea, and we should go with the Keynes approach. I will
grant that many conservative economists disagree, and I am not a bit
qualified to judge, but Krugman's book "The Return of Depression
Economics" sounds right to me. We need to increase demand. The book
concludes with some eloquent paragraphs:

". . . The quintessential economic sentence is supposed to be 'There is no
free lunch'; it says that there are limited resources, that to have more of
one thing you must accept less of another, that there is no gain without
pain. Depression economics, however, is the study of situations where there
is a free lunch, if we can only figure out how to get our hands on it,
because there are unemployed resources that could be put to work. The true
scarcity in Keynes’s world—and ours—was therefore not of resources, or even
of virtue, but of understanding.

We will not achieve the understanding we need, however, unless we are
willing to think clearly about our problems and to follow those thoughts
wherever they lead. Some people say that our economic problems are
structural, with no quick cure available; but I believe that the
only structural obstacles to world prosperity are the obsolete doctrines
that clutter the minds of men."

- Jed

[Vo]:defkalion considering to leave Greece (?)

2012-07-18 Thread Andre Blum


according to http://lenrnews.eu/?p=113, DGTG is considering to leave Greece.

Source is unclear and we are used to better English from Xanthoulis. 
Maybe this is a translation by someone from a Greek letter.


Andre

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression


You mention small spots of superconductivity.  Does that suggest that each tiny 
metallic hydrogen group must maintain its conductivity separate from the 
others?  Why are they not able to contact each other to result in much lower 
overall resistance?

Dave



-Original Message-
From: Daniel Rocha 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:51 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression


This is an interesting thing, which I also thought about some time ago, I also 
think z-pinch is involved. Even more, the extreme pressure could cause the 
formation of metallic hydrogen, an allotrope of hydrogen, (diamond and graphite 
are allotropes of carbon) ich is conjectured to be superconductive up to 700K. 


So, that fall in resistance could be explained by small spots of 
superconductivity. Takahashi's TSC can be seen a kind of a cluster of metallic 
hydrogen. TSC itself collapses and causes CF.


Note that in none of this there is new physics. Metallic hydrogen is 
conventionally used to explain Jupiter's intense magnetic field. Metallic 
Hydrogen is conjectured to be a superconductor at room temperature since the 
60's. It's stability at null pressure can be simulated by molecular orbital 
calculations. TSC's is relatively simple molecule.

Re: [Vo]:principles of DGTG 's technology


The proton-proton reaction is fundamental to the way stars such as the sun 
operate since most of the material drawn together from the space nearby is raw 
hydrogen with no neutrons.  It is interesting to notice that there is a lack of 
neutrons available in the initial stages.  Your point is well taken.

The proton-proton fusion process does release a significant number of neutrinos 
and of course the 511 keV gammas when the positrons find a mating electron.  
Rossi and the others tend to downplay the emission of these gammas and thus it 
is not clear that they constitute a real problem.  And of course we have been 
searching very hard to find a process that does not release strong gammas and 
this would fit that requirement as long as we overlook the 511 keV ones.

Has anyone calculated the usage of hydrogen that would be required to meet the 
net energy needed for the 6 months of usage if only the proton-proton fusion 
process is available?  My immediate concern is that far too much energy would 
get away in the neutrinos, but I have not done the math yet.

Are you considering an additional fusion reaction to follow up on the initial 
one discussed to use the hydrogen fuel more efficiently?  If there is anyway to 
end up with helium 4, that problem would vaporize.

Dave


-Original Message-
From: Eric Walker 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:01 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:principles of DGTG 's technology


On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 5:38 PM,  wrote:


Never mind.  Entirely my mistake.

I totally forgot to include gammas released during the neutron captures.
These can be significant.



No worries.  I think the neutron capture reactions will result in 
characteristic radiation that you would be able to detect and trace back to the 
reactants, assuming the gammas were not halted by some mechanism.


I think the lack of expected radiation is the reason for the proposed "heavy 
electron patches," which are understood to intercept gammas.  Many people do 
not like them; I personally don't mind working with the assumption that gammas 
are present at some point or in some form, although I don't have a strong 
opinion about what might happen to them -- e.g., whether they are dealt with in 
the way that Widom and Larsen describe.  I also see the possibility of there 
being no gammas whatsoever.  Having no knowledge or expertise in this area, 
it's obviously not something on which I would try to assert an opinion.


I'm personally starting to take a liking to the proton-proton chain as 
something to explore in connection with LENR.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton%E2%80%93proton_chain_reaction


There are three attractive things about it.  First, it is entirely aneutronic.  
Second, it is not well-understood.  To quote the Wikipedia article: "Even so, 
it was unclear how proton–proton fusion might proceed, because the most obvious 
product, helium-2 (diproton), is unstable and immediately dissociates back into 
a pair of protons."  Obviously it proceeds; it's just that we don't understand 
how it proceeds.  So there are some basic unknowns about the conditions under 
which it is possible.  A third reason that I like it is that it is an important 
way that fusion occurs in nature; as such, it embodies an energetically optimal 
way of dealing with the forces involved.


Humans up to now have taken some rather ugly approaches to nuclear energy.  We 
have bombarded heavy, radioactive elements with dangerous neutrons.  Or we have 
used a radioactive isotope of hydrogen in order to make possible a form of 
fusion that will spit out neutrons.  Or we have come up with huge contraptions 
that inject neutrons into a hot plasma that is being irradiated with microwaves 
of various frequencies.  Perhaps we lack imagination of the right kind -- we're 
thinking that it's impossible to get the combination of temperature and 
pressure that would be needed for something like the proton-proton chain, so we 
resort to complex, Rube Goldberg contraptions.  We've been trying to brute 
force our way into fusion.


Eric

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

No! That pressure is still too low to achieve fusion. You'd need 10^4 more.
That's what is required to achieve the metallic hydrogen, stable and
superconductive at room temperature, up to ~700K. The TSC is a self
compressive molecule of hydrogen, in tetrahedral form. It self compresses
until it fuses. Since it is neutral, it might go towards any other nearby
nuclei and fuse with it.

 I conjecture that it is the minimal atom cluster of metallic hydrogen.

2012/7/18 David Roberson 

> I must be confused about the process.  Daniel, are you suggesting that the
> pressure of 10 million bars is going to cause the hydrogen within the
> tube to fuse?  I was thinking more of the case where the fusion was with a
> nickel atom.  Perhaps it is hydrogen fusing with hydrogen within the CNT.
> I am still clinging to the original idea that nickel is converted to copper
> which may be wrong.
>
> Dave
>
>

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression


I must be confused about the process.  Daniel, are you suggesting that the 
pressure of 10 million bars is going to cause the hydrogen within the tube to 
fuse?  I was thinking more of the case where the fusion was with a nickel atom. 
 Perhaps it is hydrogen fusing with hydrogen within the CNT.  I am still 
clinging to the original idea that nickel is converted to copper which may be 
wrong.

Dave



-Original Message-
From: Daniel Rocha 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 3:49 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression


No, not like a toothpaste, nothing expelled. Compress,  as an extremely strong 
anvil, a pressure of 10 million bar. Such pressure is only possible in planets 
with higher masses than Neptune.  It really doesn't matter if it is continuous 
or not. For the purpose of the collapse, which should be measured in 
attoseconds, the current is continuous.


2012/7/18 David Roberson 

Interesting idea.  Are you thinking of the protons being ejected from the CNT 
like toothpaste as the outer surface is compressed?
 
I assume you are referring to the large current as being a large time changing 
current instead of a DC one.
 
Dave

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

No, not like a toothpaste, nothing expelled. Compress,  as an extremely
strong anvil, a pressure of 10 million bar. Such pressure is only possible
in planets with higher masses than Neptune.  It really doesn't matter if it
is continuous or not. For the purpose of the collapse, which should be
measured in attoseconds, the current is continuous.

2012/7/18 David Roberson 

> Interesting idea.  Are you thinking of the protons being ejected from the
> CNT like toothpaste as the outer surface is compressed?
>
> I assume you are referring to the large current as being a large time
> changing current instead of a DC one.
>
> Dave
>

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression


Interesting idea.  Are you thinking of the protons being ejected from the CNT 
like toothpaste as the outer surface is compressed?

I assume you are referring to the large current as being a large time changing 
current instead of a DC one.

Dave



-Original Message-
From: Eric Walker 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:01 am
Subject: [Vo]:z-pinch compression


In an earlier post I speculated on the possibility of a current of electrons 
flowing along a hollow, superconducting wire inducing a current of protons 
within the wire (via Lenz's law, although I did not know that this was what I 
was invoking).  I have since read descriptions to the effect that the magnetic 
field at the center of a hollow wire with current flowing along it will be 
zero.  Another complexity is that there are two types of superconductors -- in 
type I superconductors, magnetic fields are expelled (the superconductor is 
diamagnetic); in type II superconductors, the ones that reach higher 
temperatures, there is an effect called the paramagnetic Meissner effect, which 
causes a superconductor to be permeable to magnetism within limits of field 
strength.  It is not clear from this detail how the feasibility of such a 
current of protons would be affected, but the possibility of zero magnetic 
field is a strike against it.


There are, however, two other effects that can be considered -- the theta-pinch 
and z-pinch effects.  Theta-pinch confinement of a plasma comes about when 
current flows around the circumference of the confining volume. One individual 
speculated on the possibility of using theta-pinch confinement of a plasma to 
generate D+T fusion:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thet_pinch.png
http://lofi.forum.physorg.com/Fusion-By-Large-Linear-Theta-Pinch_18508.html


That does not obviously lend itself to the kinds of geometries we might 
speculate to exist in the nuclear active environment.  However, there is also 
the z-pinch effect, which appears to have been used to crush cans:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Z_pinch.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics)#Crushing_cans_with_the_pinch_effect


I wonder whether a large enough current could cause a current carrying nanowire 
to implode, compressing the contents as it does.


Eric

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

2012-07-18 Thread OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson

> In any event, the current notion of austerity is nonsense and is tied to
> a tired and outdated concept that money is real or has some intrinsic
> real value which it doesn't.  Austerity = Stupidity and I think every so
> often we as a society have to go through stretches of it before we
> remember that basic truth.

I agree.

This concept called "velocity", I seem to recall that it was described
as the "multiplier effect", this from the macroeconomic course I took
back in college.



Eventually we'll need to vote out those in power who continue to
follow a quaint ideology that believes in maintaining the value of
"currency" as a fixed resource is the only way to run an economy. I
think this is a patently absurd concept to maintain in today's
increasingly automated high-tech world. In fact we don't maintain
fixed amounts of money in today modern economy anyway. "Money supply"
is constantly being manipulated. Any belief that we always have a
fixed sum of money flowing through the economy is an incredibly
inaccurate one.

We currently have in the United States several vocal super
conservative political groups vying for absolute power. They are
trying to put the kibosh on all sorts of government spending programs.
Many have bought into a carefully manufactured fear that basically
states: We as a society can no longer afford to pay for all sorts of
valuable government services. They fear that to continue to fund these
programs will eventually result in rampant inflation which of course
will devalue the accumulate wealth everyone's pocket book both rich
and poor, but ESPECIALLY the accumulated wealth in the rich man's
pocket book.

It is exactly on this front where the struggle for the control of
"money supply" needs to be better understood and better managed. Many
conservatives fear that if the government simply went ahead and
printed up more money instead of issuing additional government bonds
that will "pay" for such services, such "fiscal irresponsibility" will
eventually result in massive amounts of inflation that would ravage
the economy. However, what few Grok is the fact that experiencing the
"ravages" of inflation is exactly equivalent to experiencing the
ravages of taxation. The point being: you can either be taxed in
hopefully a reasonably equitable many - or we can all experience the
ravages of inflation which is essentially being levied a flat-tax
against everyone both rich and por. Either way, we all end up paying
for necessary valuable government services.

OTOH, if we refuse to pay for these programs, which is the mantra of
many super conservative organizations, we will essentially throw off
massive numbers of people back into the unemployment line making them
unproductive and an added burden to society. More of society begins to
lose access to necessary services whether those services are for
adequate health care, or to maintaining the health of our nation's
infrastructure, such as roads and bridges.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that we currently have a number of
conservative groups who are not willing to look any farther than the
notion of protecting the accumulated value of their own bank accounts.
They have bought into the illusion that maintaining a constant fixed
value for money is the most important "resource" to manage in their
lives. They have bought into the illusion that managing the "resource"
of money (as perceive in the form of a fixed limited resource) is far
more important than trying to help better manage any other "resource".
A real irony in all of this is the fact that the manufacture of goods
and services is ultimately what's responsible for giving VALUE to what
has been accumulated in all of private bank accounts both rich and
poor.



Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

[Vo]:Report on ILENRS-12

See:

http://coldfusionnow.org/cold-fusion-symposium-at-williamsburg-lenrs-12-1-3-july-2012/

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

Much of our quality of life in the developed world has been enchanced
tremendously due to fossil fuel usage:

Fossil fuels, such as coal, natural gas, and oil, were not used as a source
of energy until the latter half of the 19th century. Prior to that, wind
and water power were used for industrial mills.

As the industrial revolution progressed, steam engines were used to drive
boats and factories, making the use of coal necessary. Widespread use of
electricity for lighting was not needed until the transmission of
electricity and the light bulb were made practical late in the 19th
century. Coal power was the main form used by these early plants.

Oil was used to power steam engines, but it wasn't until the 20th century
and the invention of the internal combustion engine that its demand soared.
After the 1950s, oil became the world's foremost fuel. The automobile and
power plants in the United States created an enormous need for petroleum
fuel. This demand has only increased to the present day.

LENR will drive energy costs to a minimum and further increase the quality
of life for all humans.  Sure, lots of change in industry, governments and
tax structures to support governments, etc. but humans thrive on change and
development.   Look where we have gone with the silicon-based
microprocessor in the past 40 years.  All culminating inFacebook?

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Alain Sepeda wrote:

> I hope so, and I feel that today energy cost is felt as a master parameter.
>
> It is just that it seems that it is only 10% of the produced good value...
>
> It is just a confilt between what my eyes see, and what the consensus
> seems to be... In that domain my intuition is not good enough to have a
> safe opinion...
>
> anyway it will make a shock of productivity, and as many say here, will
> create new organization, goods, services, that maybe will have more impact.
> One of them is simply food, water, education, ...
>
>
> 2012/7/18 Jed Rothwell 
>
>> Alain Sepeda  wrote:
>>
>>  It will be important shock, but not so huge. at most 10%
>>>
>>> of course you can expect that the technology will become even cheaper,
>>> but even if LENR get to zero, the turbines, cooling and alike will stay as
>>> expensive (and I have under estimated their cost).
>>>
>>
>> I suggest you read my book, chapters 14 and 15 especially. I show why
>> cold fusion will probably reduce electric power costs by two-thirds
>> quickly, and why eventually it will reduce all energy costs -- including
>> equipment costs -- by orders of magnitude.
>>
>> To summarize: when one component in a system falls in price, the other
>> components also soon become cheaper. Cheap microcomputers spurred the
>> development of cheap hard disks and printers.
>>
>> I may be wrong about that, but I consulted with experts and thought about
>> it carefully. I did not reach that conclusion in week or two. More like
>> several years after reading lots of books.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

2012-07-18 Thread Alain Sepeda

I hope so, and I feel that today energy cost is felt as a master parameter.

It is just that it seems that it is only 10% of the produced good value...

It is just a confilt between what my eyes see, and what the consensus seems
to be... In that domain my intuition is not good enough to have a safe
opinion...

anyway it will make a shock of productivity, and as many say here, will
create new organization, goods, services, that maybe will have more impact.
One of them is simply food, water, education, ...

2012/7/18 Jed Rothwell 

> Alain Sepeda  wrote:
>
> It will be important shock, but not so huge. at most 10%
>>
>> of course you can expect that the technology will become even cheaper,
>> but even if LENR get to zero, the turbines, cooling and alike will stay as
>> expensive (and I have under estimated their cost).
>>
>
> I suggest you read my book, chapters 14 and 15 especially. I show why cold
> fusion will probably reduce electric power costs by two-thirds quickly, and
> why eventually it will reduce all energy costs -- including equipment costs
> -- by orders of magnitude.
>
> To summarize: when one component in a system falls in price, the other
> components also soon become cheaper. Cheap microcomputers spurred the
> development of cheap hard disks and printers.
>
> I may be wrong about that, but I consulted with experts and thought about
> it carefully. I did not reach that conclusion in week or two. More like
> several years after reading lots of books.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

2012-07-18 Thread Randy Wuller

Deflation is a concept based on the money supply, as it chases goods and 
services.


If the money supply is constant and the goods and services chased increase, 
prices deflate.  If the money supply is constant and the goods and services 
decrease, prices inflate.


If you change the money supply (which happens today) any alternative is 
possible, so even with increasing goods and services, inflation can happen 
if the money supply is increased enough. The real problem today with the 
money supply is the slow down in the velocity of money which in effect 
changes the supply, decreasing it.  The risk adjusted return today (seen as 
very poor) is causing a significant reduction in the money supply and 
productivity.


The important thing is productivity, how many goods and services can be 
produced with the same effort, cold fusion will take many of the limiters 
off productivity.  Of course part of our problem today is the real lack of 
need of human effort which will simply become worse with cold fusion.  Since 
we want to give money to people for their effort, when it isn't needed one 
has to wonder how we will allocate money to them (and thus their ability to 
participate in the allocation of the productivity).


But by far the biggest impact today of cold fusion would be to change the 
concept of risk adjusted return.  If you think things are going to improve, 
you are less risk averse, spend and invest more often and in effect increase 
the velocity of the money supply.  This stimulates productivity throughout 
the economy decreases the possibility of a deflationary spiral and 
recession/depression.


In any event, the current notion of austerity is nonsense and is tied to a 
tired and outdated concept that money is real or has some intrinsic real 
value which it doesn't.  Austerity = Stupidity and I think every so often we 
as a society have to go through stretches of it before we remember that 
basic truth.


Ransom


- Original Message - 
From: "Harry Veeder" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots


Long term deflation?

Harry

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 12:23 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint  
wrote:

Alain wrote:

“since energy is $5-7Tn and GDP is $70Tn, the potential saving on energy 
is

around 10%”

“maybe I miss the point?”

Did you consider the following???



Energy is to economies as physics is to science… it is FUNDAMENTAL, and
everything is built on top of it.  A significant change to a fundamental
will propagate to anything built using that fundamental.



*If* LENR is able to deliver very cheap energy, then the cost of ALL
PRODUCTS AND SERVICES will also go down… manufacturing requires ENERGY,
moving those manufactured products to the end consumer (i.e.,
transportation) requires ENERGY (gas/diesel).  If competition is allowed 
to

take its course, the cost of nearly everything will come down.  But the
ramifications of this are much more complex, and the reality of how this
would affect different aspects of life are hard to predict… my attitude at
this point is that much disruption will happen in the short term, but long
term the average person will be much better off… we are the most adaptable
species on the planet, and we will adapt; economies will adapt; financial
markets will adapt…

-Mark



From: alain.coetm...@gmail.com [mailto:alain.coetm...@gmail.com] On Behalf
Of Alain Sepeda
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 8:02 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots



just to guive data
I've made some quick computation
http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27&p=1139#p1139

since energy is $5-7Tn and GDP is $70Tn, the potential saving on energy is
around 10%,
that you can interpret as productivity increase.
The replacement of world energy source is estimated around 15% of GDP, 
that

can easily be self-financed by the saving.
Energy is not free, but few maintenance, ridiculous matter, and some
investment.

It will be important shock, but not so huge. at most 10%

of course you can expect that the technology will become even cheaper, but
even if LENR get to zero, the turbines, cooling and alike will stay as
expensive (and I have under estimated their cost).
Some gain might came from the side-effect of LENR, like fewer pollution,
longer autonomy, sociological consequence of easier access to food, water,
health, heat... maybe is it there the biggest potential of productivity
gain.

Now I'm less enthusiast, yet it will very good, energy does not seems to 
be

so important... 10% only.

maybe I miss the point?

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

In order to keep the flame of capitalism burning the deflation will
need to be counteracted with inflationary measures.
Harry

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Harry Veeder  wrote:
> The flame of capitalism will be extinguished by sustained deflation.
> harry
>
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Harry Veeder  wrote:
>> Long term deflation?
>>
>> Harry
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 12:23 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint  
>> wrote:
>>> Alain wrote:
>>>
>>> “since energy is $5-7Tn and GDP is $70Tn, the potential saving on energy is
>>> around 10%”
>>>
>>> “maybe I miss the point?”
>>>
>>> Did you consider the following???
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Energy is to economies as physics is to science… it is FUNDAMENTAL, and
>>> everything is built on top of it.  A significant change to a fundamental
>>> will propagate to anything built using that fundamental.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *If* LENR is able to deliver very cheap energy, then the cost of ALL
>>> PRODUCTS AND SERVICES will also go down… manufacturing requires ENERGY,
>>> moving those manufactured products to the end consumer (i.e.,
>>> transportation) requires ENERGY (gas/diesel).  If competition is allowed to
>>> take its course, the cost of nearly everything will come down.  But the
>>> ramifications of this are much more complex, and the reality of how this
>>> would affect different aspects of life are hard to predict… my attitude at
>>> this point is that much disruption will happen in the short term, but long
>>> term the average person will be much better off… we are the most adaptable
>>> species on the planet, and we will adapt; economies will adapt; financial
>>> markets will adapt…
>>>
>>> -Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: alain.coetm...@gmail.com [mailto:alain.coetm...@gmail.com] On Behalf
>>> Of Alain Sepeda
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 8:02 AM
>>> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> just to guive data
>>> I've made some quick computation
>>> http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27&p=1139#p1139
>>>
>>> since energy is $5-7Tn and GDP is $70Tn, the potential saving on energy is
>>> around 10%,
>>> that you can interpret as productivity increase.
>>> The replacement of world energy source is estimated around 15% of GDP, that
>>> can easily be self-financed by the saving.
>>> Energy is not free, but few maintenance, ridiculous matter, and some
>>> investment.
>>>
>>> It will be important shock, but not so huge. at most 10%
>>>
>>> of course you can expect that the technology will become even cheaper, but
>>> even if LENR get to zero, the turbines, cooling and alike will stay as
>>> expensive (and I have under estimated their cost).
>>> Some gain might came from the side-effect of LENR, like fewer pollution,
>>> longer autonomy, sociological consequence of easier access to food, water,
>>> health, heat... maybe is it there the biggest potential of productivity
>>> gain.
>>>
>>> Now I'm less enthusiast, yet it will very good, energy does not seems to be
>>> so important... 10% only.
>>>
>>> maybe I miss the point?

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

In order to keep the flame of capitalism burning the deflation will
need to be counteracted with inflationary measures.
Harry

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Harry Veeder  wrote:
> The flame of capitalism will be extinguished by sustained deflation.
> harry
>
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Harry Veeder  wrote:
>> Long term deflation?
>>
>> Harry
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 12:23 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint  
>> wrote:
>>> Alain wrote:
>>>
>>> “since energy is $5-7Tn and GDP is $70Tn, the potential saving on energy is
>>> around 10%”
>>>
>>> “maybe I miss the point?”
>>>
>>> Did you consider the following???
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Energy is to economies as physics is to science… it is FUNDAMENTAL, and
>>> everything is built on top of it.  A significant change to a fundamental
>>> will propagate to anything built using that fundamental.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *If* LENR is able to deliver very cheap energy, then the cost of ALL
>>> PRODUCTS AND SERVICES will also go down… manufacturing requires ENERGY,
>>> moving those manufactured products to the end consumer (i.e.,
>>> transportation) requires ENERGY (gas/diesel).  If competition is allowed to
>>> take its course, the cost of nearly everything will come down.  But the
>>> ramifications of this are much more complex, and the reality of how this
>>> would affect different aspects of life are hard to predict… my attitude at
>>> this point is that much disruption will happen in the short term, but long
>>> term the average person will be much better off… we are the most adaptable
>>> species on the planet, and we will adapt; economies will adapt; financial
>>> markets will adapt…
>>>
>>> -Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: alain.coetm...@gmail.com [mailto:alain.coetm...@gmail.com] On Behalf
>>> Of Alain Sepeda
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 8:02 AM
>>> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> just to guive data
>>> I've made some quick computation
>>> http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27&p=1139#p1139
>>>
>>> since energy is $5-7Tn and GDP is $70Tn, the potential saving on energy is
>>> around 10%,
>>> that you can interpret as productivity increase.
>>> The replacement of world energy source is estimated around 15% of GDP, that
>>> can easily be self-financed by the saving.
>>> Energy is not free, but few maintenance, ridiculous matter, and some
>>> investment.
>>>
>>> It will be important shock, but not so huge. at most 10%
>>>
>>> of course you can expect that the technology will become even cheaper, but
>>> even if LENR get to zero, the turbines, cooling and alike will stay as
>>> expensive (and I have under estimated their cost).
>>> Some gain might came from the side-effect of LENR, like fewer pollution,
>>> longer autonomy, sociological consequence of easier access to food, water,
>>> health, heat... maybe is it there the biggest potential of productivity
>>> gain.
>>>
>>> Now I'm less enthusiast, yet it will very good, energy does not seems to be
>>> so important... 10% only.
>>>
>>> maybe I miss the point?

Re: [Vo]:Stand-by power generators tied into house wiring

2012-07-18 Thread Terry Blanton

Tell your sister she can back feed the power panel with a double plug
extension cord.  Be sure to open all the breakers first, especially
the main.  Wired generators should have an interlock between the gen
and the main to avoid back feeding the distribution transformer and
possibility killing a lineman.

With the main open, she will only power one of the two phases in her
split phase panel; so, she should look for an outlet which is fed from
the side of the panel she wishes to reverse power.

T

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

The flame of capitalism will be extinguished by sustained deflation.
harry

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Harry Veeder  wrote:
> Long term deflation?
>
> Harry
>
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 12:23 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint  
> wrote:
>> Alain wrote:
>>
>> “since energy is $5-7Tn and GDP is $70Tn, the potential saving on energy is
>> around 10%”
>>
>> “maybe I miss the point?”
>>
>> Did you consider the following???
>>
>>
>>
>> Energy is to economies as physics is to science… it is FUNDAMENTAL, and
>> everything is built on top of it.  A significant change to a fundamental
>> will propagate to anything built using that fundamental.
>>
>>
>>
>> *If* LENR is able to deliver very cheap energy, then the cost of ALL
>> PRODUCTS AND SERVICES will also go down… manufacturing requires ENERGY,
>> moving those manufactured products to the end consumer (i.e.,
>> transportation) requires ENERGY (gas/diesel).  If competition is allowed to
>> take its course, the cost of nearly everything will come down.  But the
>> ramifications of this are much more complex, and the reality of how this
>> would affect different aspects of life are hard to predict… my attitude at
>> this point is that much disruption will happen in the short term, but long
>> term the average person will be much better off… we are the most adaptable
>> species on the planet, and we will adapt; economies will adapt; financial
>> markets will adapt…
>>
>> -Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> From: alain.coetm...@gmail.com [mailto:alain.coetm...@gmail.com] On Behalf
>> Of Alain Sepeda
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 8:02 AM
>> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots
>>
>>
>>
>> just to guive data
>> I've made some quick computation
>> http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27&p=1139#p1139
>>
>> since energy is $5-7Tn and GDP is $70Tn, the potential saving on energy is
>> around 10%,
>> that you can interpret as productivity increase.
>> The replacement of world energy source is estimated around 15% of GDP, that
>> can easily be self-financed by the saving.
>> Energy is not free, but few maintenance, ridiculous matter, and some
>> investment.
>>
>> It will be important shock, but not so huge. at most 10%
>>
>> of course you can expect that the technology will become even cheaper, but
>> even if LENR get to zero, the turbines, cooling and alike will stay as
>> expensive (and I have under estimated their cost).
>> Some gain might came from the side-effect of LENR, like fewer pollution,
>> longer autonomy, sociological consequence of easier access to food, water,
>> health, heat... maybe is it there the biggest potential of productivity
>> gain.
>>
>> Now I'm less enthusiast, yet it will very good, energy does not seems to be
>> so important... 10% only.
>>
>> maybe I miss the point?

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

Long term deflation?

Harry

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 12:23 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint  wrote:
> Alain wrote:
>
> “since energy is $5-7Tn and GDP is $70Tn, the potential saving on energy is
> around 10%”
>
> “maybe I miss the point?”
>
> Did you consider the following???
>
>
>
> Energy is to economies as physics is to science… it is FUNDAMENTAL, and
> everything is built on top of it.  A significant change to a fundamental
> will propagate to anything built using that fundamental.
>
>
>
> *If* LENR is able to deliver very cheap energy, then the cost of ALL
> PRODUCTS AND SERVICES will also go down… manufacturing requires ENERGY,
> moving those manufactured products to the end consumer (i.e.,
> transportation) requires ENERGY (gas/diesel).  If competition is allowed to
> take its course, the cost of nearly everything will come down.  But the
> ramifications of this are much more complex, and the reality of how this
> would affect different aspects of life are hard to predict… my attitude at
> this point is that much disruption will happen in the short term, but long
> term the average person will be much better off… we are the most adaptable
> species on the planet, and we will adapt; economies will adapt; financial
> markets will adapt…
>
> -Mark
>
>
>
> From: alain.coetm...@gmail.com [mailto:alain.coetm...@gmail.com] On Behalf
> Of Alain Sepeda
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 8:02 AM
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots
>
>
>
> just to guive data
> I've made some quick computation
> http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27&p=1139#p1139
>
> since energy is $5-7Tn and GDP is $70Tn, the potential saving on energy is
> around 10%,
> that you can interpret as productivity increase.
> The replacement of world energy source is estimated around 15% of GDP, that
> can easily be self-financed by the saving.
> Energy is not free, but few maintenance, ridiculous matter, and some
> investment.
>
> It will be important shock, but not so huge. at most 10%
>
> of course you can expect that the technology will become even cheaper, but
> even if LENR get to zero, the turbines, cooling and alike will stay as
> expensive (and I have under estimated their cost).
> Some gain might came from the side-effect of LENR, like fewer pollution,
> longer autonomy, sociological consequence of easier access to food, water,
> health, heat... maybe is it there the biggest potential of productivity
> gain.
>
> Now I'm less enthusiast, yet it will very good, energy does not seems to be
> so important... 10% only.
>
> maybe I miss the point?

[Vo]:CNBC-60 Minutes- CF- Feedback via Facebook

2012-07-18 Thread Ron Kita

Greetings Vortex,

IF anyone wished to leave a comment on CNBC Facebook concerning  the Cold
Fusion Program:
http://www.facebook.com/cnbcsmart

Ron Kita, Chiralex
I have posted  a few comments on an update.

Re: [Vo]:OT: TIME Magazine - "Roswell Really Happened, Says Former CIA Agent"

2012-07-18 Thread LORENHEYER

The word 'Alien' is based on 'Our' (as in humankind) inability to deal with 
the 'fact'  that 'Evolution' has occurred over the past 10 million years or 
so, that lead us to our current more developed intelligence capacity and/or 
characteristics,,, from a far less developed and/or primitive beginning.

  By accepting this 
well-documented 'fact', you can begin to understand what occurred in the 
evolutionary process in other civilizations in other star systems over a period 
of 
Millions, 10's of millions, 100's of millions, and/or billions of years. It 
is this very thing that causes 'ourkind' extreme difficulty. Those 
extremely highly evolved/developed civilizations that are currently operating 
up 
In-Space in the absolute, are very scary looking, even frightening... but they 
are also involved in what I now refer to as a God Process (you can forget 
The God Problem, because problems are strictly reserved for individuals like 
us you know,  down here on good 'old earth)   

 Indeed, not only would I say that this happening w/o our knowledge, 
BUT, I've also detyermined that this planet and/or star system  that 'we' 
currently reside on or in,  was produced.  Just think about it, there are 
civilizations so very capable that yuo & I tend to refer to them as God, and 
for 
all intents & purposes that is "exactly" what they are!... If you don't think 
so, then you likely never  will.  (Oh well, such as life)   
   One 
thing for sure... The Technology that we know very little to nothing about 
is the difference between life & death, mortality & imortality, fact from 
fiction, fantasy from reality, mickey mouse from supreme being, etc, etc.. The 
sooner 'We' can begin to accept these 'facts' as I have tried to state them, 
hopefully w/o squashing too many over inflated heads, then the sooner 'We' 
can get started building a "Real" future... one where 'We' actually exist 
and/or can partake in the building of stars/worlds that don't yet exist (I 
just can't wait!).  

   Just the R&D alone of this whole complete 'other' system, will 
be an adventure the likes of which every Scientist Engineer & Physicist  
would give their soul (there's no real loss there, actually) to be apart of.. 
It's a given!.

RE: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

Alain wrote:

"since energy is $5-7Tn and GDP is $70Tn, the potential saving on energy is
around 10%"

"maybe I miss the point?"

Did you consider the following???

 

Energy is to economies as physics is to science. it is FUNDAMENTAL, and
everything is built on top of it.  A significant change to a fundamental
will propagate to anything built using that fundamental.

 

*If* LENR is able to deliver very cheap energy, then the cost of ALL
PRODUCTS AND SERVICES will also go down. manufacturing requires ENERGY,
moving those manufactured products to the end consumer (i.e.,
transportation) requires ENERGY (gas/diesel).  If competition is allowed to
take its course, the cost of nearly everything will come down.  But the
ramifications of this are much more complex, and the reality of how this
would affect different aspects of life are hard to predict. my attitude at
this point is that much disruption will happen in the short term, but long
term the average person will be much better off. we are the most adaptable
species on the planet, and we will adapt; economies will adapt; financial
markets will adapt.  

-Mark

 

From: alain.coetm...@gmail.com [mailto:alain.coetm...@gmail.com] On Behalf
Of Alain Sepeda
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 8:02 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

 

just to guive data
I've made some quick computation
http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=3

&t=27&p=1139#p1139

since energy is $5-7Tn and GDP is $70Tn, the potential saving on energy is
around 10%,
that you can interpret as productivity increase.
The replacement of world energy source is estimated around 15% of GDP, that
can easily be self-financed by the saving.
Energy is not free, but few maintenance, ridiculous matter, and some
investment.

It will be important shock, but not so huge. at most 10%

of course you can expect that the technology will become even cheaper, but
even if LENR get to zero, the turbines, cooling and alike will stay as
expensive (and I have under estimated their cost).
Some gain might came from the side-effect of LENR, like fewer pollution,
longer autonomy, sociological consequence of easier access to food, water,
health, heat... maybe is it there the biggest potential of productivity
gain.

Now I'm less enthusiast, yet it will very good, energy does not seems to be
so important... 10% only.

maybe I miss the point?

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

LENR will create lots of new products and create industries where there are
none today.

Money is just a vehicle for goods and services to change hands and as long
as capitalism remains that won't change.

Just cooling off the oceans and removing CO2 from the atmosphere will be
one new industry...

Retooling all of industry with LENR heaters and Boilers will create an
unbelievable amount of work for the next 20+ years



On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> These plutocrats will strongly resist their fall from power; maintaining
> their position is their agenda. And how can economics functions without
> money? I will all be interesting to watch.
>
>
> Cheers:   Axil
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 10:16 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson <
> svj.orionwo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ah! It's soapbox time! Let me step on top of mine!
>>
>> I suspect that if the prospects of robotics and LENR, or one of the
>> LENR cousins, pans out in the near future the concept of what money
>> represents to individuals, companies, and government circles will also
>> have to evolve with the times. Perhaps dramatically so.
>>
>> For thousands of years, as the concept of money and currency evolved
>> in our world it has all too often been used (I'd say abused) in
>> efforts to amass wealth along with the vestiges of power that go along
>> with it by small elite groups of individuals who are more adept than
>> the average person at amassing such artifacts. IMHO, the single most
>> egregious problem "money" has created in our society is the fact that
>> people attribute "wealth" and "power" to pieces of coins or paper
>> currency. Because they perceive "wealth" and "power" as linked to
>> pieces of coins and paper currency they have done a very good job of
>> keeping these commodities scarce, artificially so, which in turn keeps
>> such artifacts constantly in high demand. (Think of the monopoly De
>> Beers has artificially created over the diamond trade.)
>>
>> I think most of us have gotten the concept of money turned half-assed
>> backwards. Too many of us forget the fact that money in truth only
>> represents potential wealth & power. We forget is the fact that money
>> is only worth something when it is actively being used in transactions
>> between interested parties in order to purchase and/or exchange
>> artifacts of wealth & power among interested parties. When money is
>> not actively being used in such a manner, when money is sitting around
>> in a person's wallet, it has absolutely no value in itself. Granted,
>> few of this belief that... considering the number of individuals that
>> can a make a living as self-employed pickpockets in the world, but
>> that is the truth.
>>
>> If something as disruptive as LENR were suddenly to come along and
>> cause many of societies' products and services such as energy, food,
>> the basic products associated with survival and a means to a decent
>> living to become ubiquitous it will wreak havoc with a small group of
>> individuals who have made a very good living at controlling the supply
>> of coins and paper currency that historically had always been used to
>> control the scarcity of these articles. Their "services" will no
>> longer be needed.
>>
>> IMHO, LENR will not only be responsible for a huge paradigm shift in
>> the redistribution of energy, it will also be largely responsible for
>> the redistribution of political power back into the hands of
>> individuals and their respective local communities.
>>
>> My virtual 2 cents.
>>
>> Regards
>> Steven Vincent Johnson
>> www.OrionWorks.com
>> www.zazzle.com/orionworks
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots


I do not think this message went through . . .

Axil Axil mailto:janap...@gmail.com>> wrote:

   LENR will kill jobs by the millions. The LENR production factory
   will be completely automated. Only robots will populate these places.


True.

   The sales of products will be done on Amazon.com.


I doubt that. I think most cold fusion devices will be built into other 
products, such as automobiles. Others will be distributed by HVAC 
installers and electricians. Decades later, when the technology is 
miniaturized, I predict it will be built into things like laptop 
computers, washing machines or toasters. I do not think there will be a 
large market for stand-alone cold fusion devices in the first world. 
Perhaps in the third world heaters and generators may sell, but in the 
first world you need to tie a generator into the house wiring, so you 
need an electrician.


In my book, chapter 20, I look at total U.S. employment in the energy 
sector. It is not as big as you might think. It is mostly people in gas 
stations. As I point out, many of them are likely to go to other retail 
employment because gas stations function as convenience stores, which we 
will still need. There are roughly 250,000 people directly employed in 
oil extraction and coal mining. There are many others these days 
employed in the wind and solar energy business. They will all lose their 
jobs within a few years after cold fusion commercialization begins.


The B.L.S. quotes the industry group AWEA saying there are 85,000 people 
employed in wind power:


http://www.bls.gov/green/wind_energy/

This is an interesting essay. I estimate we will need at most few 
thousand people in the factories that make cold fusion devices, but for 
the first few decades we will need an army of researchers to develop the 
technology and rapidly improve it. Possibly 50,000 to 100,000 highly 
paid people. Billions of dollars.


Semiconductor R&D and fabrication plant construction runs around $50 
billion a year worldwide. That is a lot of high-paid employment. Cold 
fusion will require similar levels of R&D starting now, continuing for 
as long as we use cold fusion as a source of energy. Whether that is 
hundreds of years or thousands of years, I am sure there will still be 
plenty of research needed as far into the future as imagination can 
reach. After all, combustion and other conventional sources still demand 
billion-dollar levels of R&D. They will until we shut down the last 
combustion generator and internal combustion engine.



Alain Sepeda mailto:alain.sep...@gmail.com>> wrote:

   LENR will not kill jobs by itself, and robots will be even more
   needed for more expensive energy sources like wind turbines... that
   is not specific to LENR.


There will be no market for wind turbines once cold fusion is developed. 
It will immediately bankrupt all alternatives sources such as wind and 
solar. Following that it will bankrupt conventional sources such as coal 
and oil, and finally hydroelectric (the cheapest present source).


   The more expensive it is, the more the automation is needed.


Cold fusion will be orders of magnitude cheaper than any other source of 
energy. However, it can only be manufactured by high tech, robotic 
production lines. It resembles a Ni-Cad battery or a solar PV cell in 
that respect.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

Alain Sepeda  wrote:

It will be important shock, but not so huge. at most 10%
>
> of course you can expect that the technology will become even cheaper, but
> even if LENR get to zero, the turbines, cooling and alike will stay as
> expensive (and I have under estimated their cost).
>

I suggest you read my book, chapters 14 and 15 especially. I show why cold
fusion will probably reduce electric power costs by two-thirds quickly, and
why eventually it will reduce all energy costs -- including equipment costs
-- by orders of magnitude.

To summarize: when one component in a system falls in price, the other
components also soon become cheaper. Cheap microcomputers spurred the
development of cheap hard disks and printers.

I may be wrong about that, but I consulted with experts and thought about
it carefully. I did not reach that conclusion in week or two. More like
several years after reading lots of books.

- Jed

[Vo]:Stand-by power generators tied into house wiring

For those unfamiliar with backup generators let me explain this comment ".
. . in the first world you need to tie a generator into the house wiring,
so you need an electrician." You do not actually need to do this, but it is
a good idea. It is easier and cheaper than it used to be.

My sister lives in the middle of nowhere in Virginia. After the recent
derecho, she discovered her 3 kW portable emergency generator was not
working. The power was still out a week later. She borrowed a generator
from a friend. It was not tied into the house wiring, so it was of limited
value. She could not run the pump or air conditioner. They had no water or
washing machine. It got old after a few days. She plans to get a 5 kW
generator and tie it into the distribution panel, with a manual switch.
This is the trend nowadays for people living in the country where the power
often fails.

You can get an 8 kW generator powered by natural gas with an automatic
switch for $2,400. That is much cheaper than they used to be. Go to a site
such as Lowes.com and look up:

Centurion by Generac Power Systems 8000 Watts (LP)/7000 Watts (NG) Standby
Generator with Automatic Transfer Switch

I believe that price includes installation.

Here is a 20 kW unit for $4,600:

Centurion by Generac Power Systems 2 Watts (LP)/18000 Watts (NG)
Standby Generator with Automatic Transfer Switch

This is safer and better than having a stand-alone gasoline powered unit
chugging away in the yard.

These units are not designed for full time operation, but similar devices
for remote locations such as cabins in the wilderness are designed for 24/7
operation. They are not much more expensive. A first-generation cold fusion
generator will resemble one of these. I assume it will also have some means
to capture waste heat, for co-generation space heating in winter. I have no
idea what the cost will be for the first few thousand units. They would
sell like hotcakes at a price. $250,000 each would be no barrier. After
things settle down and competition begins, there is no reason why they
should cost much more than today's stand-by generator. Maybe $5,000 to
$15,000 depending on capacity.

Many decades from now, most machines will be self-powered with cold fusion
and thermoelectric devices. There will be no house wiring. At least, there
will be no copper wires with enough electricity to drive an appliance as
large as a refrigerator or toaster. There may be low-powered control wires,
similar to today's ethernet wiring or a USB wire. They will be used to turn
on something like an overhead light, or to have various appliances and fire
and burglar alarms coordinate with one another, or report their status
on-line.

By the way, I doubt we will ever see refrigerators reporting that you need
to buy more milk, as predicted a few years ago. That's kind of silly. It is
too much computer and sensor power for a single application of limited
value. I do expect that instead of this, household robots will be smart
enough to open the refrigerator and see that you are low on milk.
Eventually they will be smart enough to buy milk, and have it delivered by
the grocery store delivery-bot.

By the way, I used to have a 3 kW generator. I gave it to a friend in the
construction biz, and bought a $100 car-battery inverter that produces 1.2
kW. My lights and refrigerator are now so efficient I no longer need as
much backup power. I confirmed that 1.2 kW is enough for the emergency sump
pump under the house, which I can connect to with a long industrial
extension cord.

It looks like this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Bright-PW1100-12-Inverter-1100/dp/B000NIG2FG/ref=sr_1_5

That takes up much less space than a gasoline generator. It sits in the
closet indoors. You do not have to store gasoline. Just connect to the car
battery and let the car engine idle. Granted, I wouldn't want to connect it
in a driving rain. I think there is a way to connect it inside the Prius,
in the back cargo section, on the right. I have not tried that yet. I have
used it only once during a 6-hour blackout. It probably saved ~$100 worth
of groceries in the fridge. It was nice having lights in the kitchen and
living room, and Internet access. I tied it into the Geo Metro battery
because there it is, easy to find, red to red, black to black and Bob's
your uncle. Simpler than cranking up a gasoline generator.

You can get a portable ~2 kW gasoline generator for $700:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_28153-24212-0057930_4294747146__

50 lbs. Kind of pricey.

Here is a 1 kW unit that weights 28 lbs, also pricey:

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-EF1000iS-4-Stroke-Generator-Compliant/dp/product-description/B002RWK9LY

$800!

You can see why an inverter is a better deal, especially for occasional use.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

2012-07-18 Thread Alain Sepeda

just to guive data
I've made some quick computation
http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27&p=1139#p1139

since energy is $5-7Tn and GDP is $70Tn, the potential saving on energy is
around 10%,
that you can interpret as productivity increase.
The replacement of world energy source is estimated around 15% of GDP, that
can easily be self-financed by the saving.
Energy is not free, but few maintenance, ridiculous matter, and some
investment.

It will be important shock, but not so huge. at most 10%

of course you can expect that the technology will become even cheaper, but
even if LENR get to zero, the turbines, cooling and alike will stay as
expensive (and I have under estimated their cost).
Some gain might came from the side-effect of LENR, like fewer pollution,
longer autonomy, sociological consequence of easier access to food, water,
health, heat... maybe is it there the biggest potential of productivity
gain.

Now I'm less enthusiast, yet it will very good, energy does not seems to be
so important... 10% only.


maybe I miss the point?

2012/7/18 OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson 

> Ah! It's soapbox time! Let me step on top of mine!
>
> I suspect that if the prospects of robotics and LENR, or one of the
> LENR cousins, pans out in the near future the concept of what money
> represents to individuals, companies, and government circles will also
> have to evolve with the times. Perhaps dramatically so.
>
> For thousands of years, as the concept of money and currency evolved
> in our world it has all too often been used (I'd say abused) in
> efforts to amass wealth along with the vestiges of power that go along
> with it by small elite groups of individuals who are more adept than
> the average person at amassing such artifacts. IMHO, the single most
> egregious problem "money" has created in our society is the fact that
> people attribute "wealth" and "power" to pieces of coins or paper
> currency. Because they perceive "wealth" and "power" as linked to
> pieces of coins and paper currency they have done a very good job of
> keeping these commodities scarce, artificially so, which in turn keeps
> such artifacts constantly in high demand. (Think of the monopoly De
> Beers has artificially created over the diamond trade.)
>
> I think most of us have gotten the concept of money turned half-assed
> backwards. Too many of us forget the fact that money in truth only
> represents potential wealth & power. We forget is the fact that money
> is only worth something when it is actively being used in transactions
> between interested parties in order to purchase and/or exchange
> artifacts of wealth & power among interested parties. When money is
> not actively being used in such a manner, when money is sitting around
> in a person's wallet, it has absolutely no value in itself. Granted,
> few of this belief that... considering the number of individuals that
> can a make a living as self-employed pickpockets in the world, but
> that is the truth.
>
> If something as disruptive as LENR were suddenly to come along and
> cause many of societies' products and services such as energy, food,
> the basic products associated with survival and a means to a decent
> living to become ubiquitous it will wreak havoc with a small group of
> individuals who have made a very good living at controlling the supply
> of coins and paper currency that historically had always been used to
> control the scarcity of these articles. Their "services" will no
> longer be needed.
>
> IMHO, LENR will not only be responsible for a huge paradigm shift in
> the redistribution of energy, it will also be largely responsible for
> the redistribution of political power back into the hands of
> individuals and their respective local communities.
>
> My virtual 2 cents.
>
> Regards
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> www.zazzle.com/orionworks
>
>

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

This is an interesting thing, which I also thought about some time ago, I
also think z-pinch is involved. Even more, the extreme pressure could cause
the formation of metallic hydrogen, an allotrope of hydrogen, (diamond and
graphite are allotropes of carbon) ich is conjectured to be superconductive
up to 700K.

So, that fall in resistance could be explained by small spots of
superconductivity. Takahashi's TSC can be seen a kind of a cluster of
metallic hydrogen. TSC itself collapses and causes CF.

Note that in none of this there is new physics. Metallic hydrogen is
conventionally used to explain Jupiter's intense magnetic field. Metallic
Hydrogen is conjectured to be a superconductor at room temperature since
the 60's. It's stability at null pressure can be simulated by molecular
orbital calculations. TSC's is relatively simple molecule.

Re: [Vo]:CNBC and Advertisements for Cold Fusion- Hot Again

2012-07-18 Thread Axil Axil

There was nothing there to awaken the sleeping giant.


Cheers:   Axil


On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 10:16 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:

> Yep, it was a rerun of the April 2009 program with a 10 second ‘update’
> made at the end of the segment…. The ‘update’ was (paraphrasing):
>
> “Dr. Duncan and 8 scientists at the University of Missouri are working to
> understand the processes involved.”
>
> -Mark
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Chemical Engineer [mailto:cheme...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 18, 2012 6:44 AM
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:CNBC and Advertisements for Cold Fusion- Hot Again
>
> ** **
>
> Did anybody watch this last night?
>
> ** **
>
> Was it just a rehatch or any new stuff?
>
> ** **
>
> Or did everyone sign an NDA and can't say anything...
>
> ** **
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> 
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Ron Kita  wrote:
> > I live in Pennsylvania...and  they are showing 9PM on the 17th.
>
> http://www.cnbc.com/id/40795923/
>
>
> 
>
> ** **
>

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

2012-07-18 Thread Axil Axil

These plutocrats will strongly resist their fall from power; maintaining
their position is their agenda. And how can economics functions without
money? I will all be interesting to watch.


Cheers:   Axil

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 10:16 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson <
svj.orionwo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ah! It's soapbox time! Let me step on top of mine!
>
> I suspect that if the prospects of robotics and LENR, or one of the
> LENR cousins, pans out in the near future the concept of what money
> represents to individuals, companies, and government circles will also
> have to evolve with the times. Perhaps dramatically so.
>
> For thousands of years, as the concept of money and currency evolved
> in our world it has all too often been used (I'd say abused) in
> efforts to amass wealth along with the vestiges of power that go along
> with it by small elite groups of individuals who are more adept than
> the average person at amassing such artifacts. IMHO, the single most
> egregious problem "money" has created in our society is the fact that
> people attribute "wealth" and "power" to pieces of coins or paper
> currency. Because they perceive "wealth" and "power" as linked to
> pieces of coins and paper currency they have done a very good job of
> keeping these commodities scarce, artificially so, which in turn keeps
> such artifacts constantly in high demand. (Think of the monopoly De
> Beers has artificially created over the diamond trade.)
>
> I think most of us have gotten the concept of money turned half-assed
> backwards. Too many of us forget the fact that money in truth only
> represents potential wealth & power. We forget is the fact that money
> is only worth something when it is actively being used in transactions
> between interested parties in order to purchase and/or exchange
> artifacts of wealth & power among interested parties. When money is
> not actively being used in such a manner, when money is sitting around
> in a person's wallet, it has absolutely no value in itself. Granted,
> few of this belief that... considering the number of individuals that
> can a make a living as self-employed pickpockets in the world, but
> that is the truth.
>
> If something as disruptive as LENR were suddenly to come along and
> cause many of societies' products and services such as energy, food,
> the basic products associated with survival and a means to a decent
> living to become ubiquitous it will wreak havoc with a small group of
> individuals who have made a very good living at controlling the supply
> of coins and paper currency that historically had always been used to
> control the scarcity of these articles. Their "services" will no
> longer be needed.
>
> IMHO, LENR will not only be responsible for a huge paradigm shift in
> the redistribution of energy, it will also be largely responsible for
> the redistribution of political power back into the hands of
> individuals and their respective local communities.
>
> My virtual 2 cents.
>
> Regards
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> www.zazzle.com/orionworks
>
>

RE: [Vo]:CNBC and Advertisements for Cold Fusion- Hot Again

Yep, it was a rerun of the April 2009 program with a 10 second 'update' made
at the end of the segment.. The 'update' was (paraphrasing):

"Dr. Duncan and 8 scientists at the University of Missouri are working to
understand the processes involved."

-Mark

 

From: Chemical Engineer [mailto:cheme...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 6:44 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:CNBC and Advertisements for Cold Fusion- Hot Again

 

Did anybody watch this last night?

 

Was it just a rehatch or any new stuff?

 

Or did everyone sign an NDA and can't say anything...

 

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Terry Blanton  wrote:



On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Ron Kita  wrote:
> I live in Pennsylvania...and  they are showing 9PM on the 17th.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/40795923/

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

2012-07-18 Thread OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson

Ah! It's soapbox time! Let me step on top of mine!

I suspect that if the prospects of robotics and LENR, or one of the
LENR cousins, pans out in the near future the concept of what money
represents to individuals, companies, and government circles will also
have to evolve with the times. Perhaps dramatically so.

For thousands of years, as the concept of money and currency evolved
in our world it has all too often been used (I'd say abused) in
efforts to amass wealth along with the vestiges of power that go along
with it by small elite groups of individuals who are more adept than
the average person at amassing such artifacts. IMHO, the single most
egregious problem "money" has created in our society is the fact that
people attribute "wealth" and "power" to pieces of coins or paper
currency. Because they perceive "wealth" and "power" as linked to
pieces of coins and paper currency they have done a very good job of
keeping these commodities scarce, artificially so, which in turn keeps
such artifacts constantly in high demand. (Think of the monopoly De
Beers has artificially created over the diamond trade.)

I think most of us have gotten the concept of money turned half-assed
backwards. Too many of us forget the fact that money in truth only
represents potential wealth & power. We forget is the fact that money
is only worth something when it is actively being used in transactions
between interested parties in order to purchase and/or exchange
artifacts of wealth & power among interested parties. When money is
not actively being used in such a manner, when money is sitting around
in a person's wallet, it has absolutely no value in itself. Granted,
few of this belief that... considering the number of individuals that
can a make a living as self-employed pickpockets in the world, but
that is the truth.

If something as disruptive as LENR were suddenly to come along and
cause many of societies' products and services such as energy, food,
the basic products associated with survival and a means to a decent
living to become ubiquitous it will wreak havoc with a small group of
individuals who have made a very good living at controlling the supply
of coins and paper currency that historically had always been used to
control the scarcity of these articles. Their "services" will no
longer be needed.

IMHO, LENR will not only be responsible for a huge paradigm shift in
the redistribution of energy, it will also be largely responsible for
the redistribution of political power back into the hands of
individuals and their respective local communities.

My virtual 2 cents.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

Axil Axil  wrote:

LENR will kill jobs by the millions. The LENR production factory will be
> completely automated. Only robots will populate these places.
>

True.

> The sales of products will be done on Amazon.com.
>

I doubt that. I think most cold fusion devices will be built into other
products, such as automobiles. Others will be distributed by HVAC
installers and electricians. Decades later, when the technology is
miniaturized, I predict it will be built into things like laptop computers,
washing machines or toasters. I do not think there will be a large market
for stand-alone cold fusion devices in the first world. Perhaps in the
third world heaters and generators may sell, but in the first world you
need to tie a generator into the house wiring, so you need an electrician.

In my book, chapter 20, I look at total U.S. employment in the energy
sector. It is not as big as you might think. It is mostly people in gas
stations. As I point out, many of them are likely to go to other retail
employment because gas stations function as convenience stores, which we
will still need. There are roughly 250,000 people directly employed in oil
extraction and coal mining. There are many others these days employed in
the wind and solar energy business. They will all lose their jobs within a
few years after cold fusion commercialization begins.

The B.L.S. quotes the industry group AWEA saying there are 85,000 people
employed in wind power:

http://www.bls.gov/green/wind_energy/

This is an interesting essay. I estimate we will need at most few thousand
people in the factories that make cold fusion devices, but for the first
few decades we will need an army of researchers to develop the technology
and rapidly improve it. Possibly 50,000 to 100,000 highly paid people.
Billions of dollars.

Semiconductor R&D and fabrication plant construction runs around $50
billion a year worldwide. That is a lot of high-paid employment. Cold
fusion will require similar levels of R&D starting now, continuing for as
long as we use cold fusion as a source of energy. Whether that is hundreds
of years or thousands of years, I am sure there will still be plenty of
research needed as far into the future as imagination can reach. After all,
combustion and other conventional sources still demand billion-dollar
levels of R&D. They will until we shut down the last combustion generator
and internal combustion engine.

Alain Sepeda  wrote:

LENR will not kill jobs by itself, and robots will be even more needed for
> more expensive energy sources like wind turbines... that is not specific to
> LENR.
>

There will be no market for wind turbines once cold fusion is developed. It
will immediately bankrupt all alternatives sources such as wind and solar.
Following that it will bankrupt conventional sources such as coal and oil,
and finally hydroelectric (the cheapest present source).

> The more expensive it is, the more the automation is needed.
>

Cold fusion will be orders of magnitude cheaper than any other source of
energy. However, it can only be manufactured by high tech, robotic
production lines. It resembles a Ni-Cad battery or a solar PV cell in that
respect.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:z-pinch compression

2012-07-18 Thread pagnucco

Eric,

Yes, that happens.  So do various other wire deformations. See -

"Stability of Metal Nanowires at Ultrahigh Current Densities"
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0411058

The authors have other papers on the topic.  You can find them by clicking
on their names.

I am also interested in how much "z-pinching" an electron's, or a proton's
wave function experiences.  They should become somewhat more concentrated
and narrowly bullet-shaped.  If this waveform shaping is significant,
maybe the overlap between head-on colliding electron and proton wave
functions would be large enough to increase the chances of neutron
formation.  Both are propelled into each other in exactly opposite
directions by their coulomb fields and by the magnetic field.  It is wave
function overlap that allow protons in nuclei to capture muons and inner
shell electrons.

-- Lou Pagnucco

Eric Walker wrote;
> [...]
> I wonder whether a large enough current could cause a current carrying
> nanowire to implode, compressing the contents as it does.
>
> Eric
>

Re: [Vo]:CNBC and Advertisements for Cold Fusion- Hot Again

Did anybody watch this last night?

Was it just a rehatch or any new stuff?

Or did everyone sign an NDA and can't say anything...

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Terry Blanton  wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Ron Kita  wrote:
> > I live in Pennsylvania...and  they are showing 9PM on the 17th.
>
> http://www.cnbc.com/id/40795923/
>
> ABOUT THE SHOW
> “60 Minutes on CNBC” takes you a step further into hard hitting
> investigative reports, interviews, profiles, and features stories that have
> made "60 Minutes" required viewing for millions. CNBC brings you the latest
> on these classic stories with updates and never before seen footage of
> these award winning business news stories. The program is produced for CNBC
> by CBS News Productions.
> SCIENTIFIC BREAKTHROUGHS - *Tuesday, July 17th 9p | 12a ET*
> Cold Fusion Is Hot Again
> A report on cold fusion - nuclear energy like that which powers the sun,
> but made at room temperatures on a tabletop, which in 1989, was presented
> as a revolutionary new source of energy that promised to be cheap,
> limitless and clean but was quickly dismissed as junk science. Today,
> scientists believe that cold fusion, now most often called low temperature
> fusion or a nuclear effect, could lead to monumental breakthroughs in
> energy production.
>
> 
>
> Now, if you believe the ad, the show will first air at 12:00am Eastern and
> again at 9pm the same day.  However, it would not surprise me if the
> nitwits who wrote the ad really meant 12pm (24:00 hrs) on the 17th also
> meaning 12am (00:00 hrs) on the 18th.  The clue is that they listed the 9pm
> airing first.
>
>
> T
>

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

LENR will make jobs mostly uneeded. That's simple. You can have a closed
structure to make crops and get you food for free. If you want any luxury,
just some freelance will make the required money.

Re: [Vo]:Harping on the Right Things!

2012-07-18 Thread Jojo Jaro

Sorry.  Double Post.  I did not mean to repost this since I've already said it.

This is the BS of this retrograde Mailing System.  If this were a forum, I 
could have simply edited the post or deleted it.  This email explaining that I 
double posted should have been unneccesary.


Jojo

Re: [Vo]:Harping on the Right Things!

2012-07-18 Thread Jojo Jaro

Understood.  You have the right to be wrong.  :-)


One thing you can do to convince yourself.  See if you can find a glow plug for 
any purpose that looks like what you saw in those pictures.  See if you can 
find a glow plug with a white heating end.

$100 says you can't find a glow plug that looks like the one pictured. If you 
accept my challenged and I loose, I'll pay you when I get back to the states.  
But If I win, you can order stuff for me that I need for my gen2 reactor and 
ship it to me.

Deal?


Jojo


PS. Like I said, I became intimiately familiar with different kinds of glow 
plugs but I've never seen one like those pictured.





  - Original Message - 
  From: Terry Blanton 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 10:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Harping on the Right Things!





  On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Jojo Jaro  wrote:

I believe you are mistaken.  The round white end is the insulating ceramic. 
 If you look closely, you can barely see the protruding electrode.  The ground 
electrode can not be clearly seen.  Either it can not be seen in this picture 
due to its angle or it has been cut off.




  You are entitled to your opinion and I will defend to the death your right to 
have it.  I just disagree!


  :-)


  T

[Vo]:z-pinch compression