Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Daniel Rocha]

So now, settlers are hippies. It might actually explain why you see
yourself (or whoever group you feel belonging to) to feel threatened. When
you are a willing immigrant, you do more to overcome difficulties. This is
obvious. The old ones become lazy and xenophobic.


2015-09-19 15:24 GMT-03:00 James Bowery :

> [image: Boxbe]  This message is eligible
> for Automatic Cleanup! (jabow...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule
> 
> | More info
> 
>
> What zombie talk!  That which doesn't exist cannot be destroyed but it
> can, of course, destroy that which does exist and therefore justice
> dictates that it should be destroyed despite it not existing.
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[James Bowery]

The world is threatened when the likes of Norman Borlaug are replaced by
immigrants from India, that his green revolution created despite his
warnings about the need for birth control, and then proceed to take over
key positions in the Iowa government, where Borlaug was from, that make
decisions directing funding away from workable technologies for the green
revolution and toward fellow immigrants from India who are given plumb jobs
pursing unworkable technologies that are given empty awards in the name of
Norman Borlaug.

And, yes, that happened right here in Shenandoah, IA, not a mile from where
I type this.

But you don't care about the world.

You care about your moral vanity.

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 2:02 PM, Daniel Rocha  wrote:

> So now, settlers are hippies. It might actually explain why you see
> yourself (or whoever group you feel belonging to) to feel threatened. When
> you are a willing immigrant, you do more to overcome difficulties. This is
> obvious. The old ones become lazy and xenophobic.
>
>
> 2015-09-19 15:24 GMT-03:00 James Bowery :
>
>> [image: Boxbe]  This message is eligible
>> for Automatic Cleanup! (jabow...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule
>> 
>> | More info
>> 
>>
>> What zombie talk!  That which doesn't exist cannot be destroyed but it
>> can, of course, destroy that which does exist and therefore justice
>> dictates that it should be destroyed despite it not existing.
>>
>>
>>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lennart Thornros]

James,
I think I have some experience in the issues about culture or not in the
US.
I think you are missing the point.
I agree with you about that the feds has done no good for the US. Just the
opposite. We still expand the influence from the feds over the states. I
agree about the little info produced regarding some bad events, while
others have a constant media attention.
However, when you characterize the US culture I am at loss. The problem is
that there is no culture. The settler culture that once where a common base
is no longer relevant. Now we agree to having a million cultures and we
keep them separated. Cannot even have a common language. (Try to live in
Austria and not speak German).
I have seen both Europe and the US about equal time as an adult. I would
not even be able to describe any culture that is national culture in the
US. I do not even think there could be. The problem as I see it is that we
try fuse together all under a federal agenda and make an artificial culture
as Daniel says rules implemented on the middle class. (Which pay dearly for
that and has done since WWll.)
Yes, there needs to be birth control but not imposed by outsiders but from
realization.
The law you copied above is certainly a great example of laws that make no
sense, have no way to be enforced and is unclear as unclear can be.
For a long time I have had as an example another stupid law in California.
'You cannot smoke in the car if any passenger is under the age of 15'.
Impossible to enforce, makes no good, has no impact. I mean a simple law -
' you must not smoke inside cars' I could understand but when you need to
see the birth certificate of others before you know that you break the law.
Your defense of the actors is not understandable.
I am not much of a fan to Donald Trump and think his motto is stupid but in
this case, the one who called the police or initiated it - 'You are fired'.

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 12:15 PM, James Bowery  wrote:

> The world is threatened when the likes of Norman Borlaug are replaced by
> immigrants from India, that his green revolution created despite his
> warnings about the need for birth control, and then proceed to take over
> key positions in the Iowa government, where Borlaug was from, that make
> decisions directing funding away from workable technologies for the green
> revolution and toward fellow immigrants from India who are given plumb jobs
> pursing unworkable technologies that are given empty awards in the name of
> Norman Borlaug.
>
> And, yes, that happened right here in Shenandoah, IA, not a mile from
> where I type this.
>
> But you don't care about the world.
>
> You care about your moral vanity.
>
> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 2:02 PM, Daniel Rocha 
> wrote:
>
>> So now, settlers are hippies. It might actually explain why you see
>> yourself (or whoever group you feel belonging to) to feel threatened. When
>> you are a willing immigrant, you do more to overcome difficulties. This is
>> obvious. The old ones become lazy and xenophobic.
>>
>>
>> 2015-09-19 15:24 GMT-03:00 James Bowery :
>>
>>> [image: Boxbe]  This message is
>>> eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (jabow...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule
>>> 
>>> | More info
>>> 
>>>
>>> What zombie talk!  That which doesn't exist cannot be destroyed but it
>>> can, of course, destroy that which does exist and therefore justice
>>> dictates that it should be destroyed despite it not existing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Daniel Rocha]

US is primarily made by immigrants, which was occupied by murdering the
original cultures. Also, many of those "immigrants" were brought against
their own will. So, it is illogical to think of anything as "american
culture". Even more so because the organizational basis of US it is that it
should be diverse, at least in terms of laws. Thus, US is characterized as
a federation.

I see that american culture, even looking from a foreign country, is no
culture at all. It is at most a standard laid upon the upper middle classes
and repeated over and over by the local media as it were true. So, there is
not even a target to menace. Even more the boyin question is certainly
potentially helping the quality of life of people who live in US, as many
immigrants of brown skin,  than over 99% of those with "native" stock.

2015-09-19 14:53 GMT-03:00 James Bowery :

> 60 million children of pioneer US stock do not exist due to the real
> increase in cost of family formation imposed on the baby boom generation,
> and that demographic vacum is being filled by foreigners hostile to the
> culture that founded the US -- all as a result of US Federal government
> policies.
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[James Bowery]

What zombie talk!  That which doesn't exist cannot be destroyed but it can,
of course, destroy that which does exist and therefore justice dictates
that it should be destroyed despite it not existing.

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Daniel Rocha  wrote:

> US is primarily made by immigrants, which was occupied by murdering the
> original cultures. Also, many of those "immigrants" were brought against
> their own will. So, it is illogical to think of anything as "american
> culture". Even more so because the organizational basis of US it is that it
> should be diverse, at least in terms of laws. Thus, US is characterized as
> a federation.
>
> I see that american culture, even looking from a foreign country, is no
> culture at all. It is at most a standard laid upon the upper middle classes
> and repeated over and over by the local media as it were true. So, there is
> not even a target to menace. Even more the boyin question is certainly
> potentially helping the quality of life of people who live in US, as many
> immigrants of brown skin,  than over 99% of those with "native" stock.
>
> 2015-09-19 14:53 GMT-03:00 James Bowery :
>
>> 60 million children of pioneer US stock do not exist due to the real
>> increase in cost of family formation imposed on the baby boom generation,
>> and that demographic vacum is being filled by foreigners hostile to the
>> culture that founded the US -- all as a result of US Federal government
>> policies.
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[James Bowery]

The US is a settler culture, not an immigrant culture.

A settler culture has a primary relationship with nature and secondary
relationship with society.  The loss of this culture is what is destroying
science and technology and replacing it with theocracy as evidenced, not
only by the treatment of theory as superior to experiment, but by the loss
of fundamental technical advances ever since the Immigration and
Nationality Act of 1965 initiated the replacement of the Nation of Settlers
with the Nation of Immigrants.

The notion that this replacement is "justified" by some version of history
in which the Settlers were responsible for various social injustices is
puerile.  If there is a need for justice, let's address that forthrightly
by, for example, turning lands and sovereignty back over to the descendants
of Amerindian tribes and by reparations for slavery -- not this
interminable mealy mouthed mass hysteria rationalizing whatever happens to
be fashionable.

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 1:24 PM, James Bowery  wrote:

> What zombie talk!  That which doesn't exist cannot be destroyed but it
> can, of course, destroy that which does exist and therefore justice
> dictates that it should be destroyed despite it not existing.
>
> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Daniel Rocha 
> wrote:
>
>> US is primarily made by immigrants, which was occupied by murdering the
>> original cultures. Also, many of those "immigrants" were brought against
>> their own will. So, it is illogical to think of anything as "american
>> culture". Even more so because the organizational basis of US it is that it
>> should be diverse, at least in terms of laws. Thus, US is characterized as
>> a federation.
>>
>> I see that american culture, even looking from a foreign country, is no
>> culture at all. It is at most a standard laid upon the upper middle classes
>> and repeated over and over by the local media as it were true. So, there is
>> not even a target to menace. Even more the boyin question is certainly
>> potentially helping the quality of life of people who live in US, as many
>> immigrants of brown skin,  than over 99% of those with "native" stock.
>>
>> 2015-09-19 14:53 GMT-03:00 James Bowery :
>>
>>> 60 million children of pioneer US stock do not exist due to the real
>>> increase in cost of family formation imposed on the baby boom generation,
>>> and that demographic vacum is being filled by foreigners hostile to the
>>> culture that founded the US -- all as a result of US Federal government
>>> policies.
>>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Daniel Rocha]

James, have you stop beating your wife? Yes or No?

2015-09-19 1:16 GMT-03:00 James Bowery :

> [image: Boxbe]  This message is eligible
> for Automatic Cleanup! (jabow...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule
> 
> | More info
> 
>
> What physical precautions did they take that indicates they thought it was
> a bomb rather than a hoax device?
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Daniel Rocha]

But, I think not being outraged by this kind of situation must be a sign of
a mental illness. Of course, someone may be very busy with something else
and not bother with this.

2015-09-19 14:00 GMT-03:00 James Bowery :

> [image: Boxbe]  This message is eligible
> for Automatic Cleanup! (jabow...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule
> 
> | More info
> 
>
> Your logic is as flawless as the rest of the "outrage".
>
> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 2:06 AM, Daniel Rocha 
> wrote:
>
>> James, have you stop beating your wife? Yes or No?
>>
>> 2015-09-19 1:16 GMT-03:00 James Bowery :
>>
>>> [image: Boxbe]  This message is
>>> eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (jabow...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule
>>> 
>>> | More info
>>> 
>>>
>>> What physical precautions did they take that indicates they thought it
>>> was a bomb rather than a hoax device?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[James Bowery]

The "outrage" is certainly normative.  But then so is mental illness during
mass hysteria.

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 12:36 PM, Daniel Rocha 
wrote:

> But, I think not being outraged by this kind of situation must be a sign
> of a mental illness. Of course, someone may be very busy with something
> else and not bother with this.
>
> 2015-09-19 14:00 GMT-03:00 James Bowery :
>
>> [image: Boxbe]  This message is eligible
>> for Automatic Cleanup! (jabow...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule
>> 
>> | More info
>> 
>>
>> Your logic is as flawless as the rest of the "outrage".
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 2:06 AM, Daniel Rocha 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> James, have you stop beating your wife? Yes or No?
>>>
>>> 2015-09-19 1:16 GMT-03:00 James Bowery :
>>>
 [image: Boxbe]  This message is
 eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (jabow...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule
 
 | More info
 

 What physical precautions did they take that indicates they thought it
 was a bomb rather than a hoax device?



>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Daniel Rocha]

It is normative because feeling compassion for this case is the usual. I am
not sure how things are in the US for this case, but I didn't need any push
of media, other than reading a headline, to feel sorry. Not feeling
anything is psychopathy.

2015-09-19 14:38 GMT-03:00 James Bowery :

> The "outrage" is certainly normative.  But then so is mental illness
> during mass hysteria.
>
>
>
-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[James Bowery]

60 million children of pioneer US stock do not exist due to the real
increase in cost of family formation imposed on the baby boom generation,
and that demographic vacum is being filled by foreigners hostile to the
culture that founded the US -- all as a result of US Federal government
policies.  How many movies about that genocide have been made?   Clue:  Not
even as many as movies as there are about the communist exterminations of
close to the same amount that took place decades earlier and much further
away -- less than ten total.

People are hardly aware of the communist exterminations let alone what the
US government did to its own founding people -- who were supposed to be
sovereign as a people.

200+ movies have been made about the Holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis as
old as the commnist genocides and people are all about "compassion" for
Jews.

Sure it is "natural" to react with "compassion" to images that are
projected directly to our visual cortex and not even given the distance of
a story teller's oration -- bypassing our critical faculties.

That kind of "compassion" is, when invoked by mass media, mass hysteria.
People like you have no place in public life.

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Daniel Rocha 
wrote:

> It is normative because feeling compassion for this case is the usual. I
> am not sure how things are in the US for this case, but I didn't need any
> push of media, other than reading a headline, to feel sorry. Not feeling
> anything is psychopathy.
>
> 2015-09-19 14:38 GMT-03:00 James Bowery :
>
>> The "outrage" is certainly normative.  But then so is mental illness
>> during mass hysteria.
>>
>>
>>
> --
> Daniel Rocha - RJ
> danieldi...@gmail.com
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[James Bowery]

Your logic is as flawless as the rest of the "outrage".

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 2:06 AM, Daniel Rocha  wrote:

> James, have you stop beating your wife? Yes or No?
>
> 2015-09-19 1:16 GMT-03:00 James Bowery :
>
>> [image: Boxbe]  This message is eligible
>> for Automatic Cleanup! (jabow...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule
>> 
>> | More info
>> 
>>
>> What physical precautions did they take that indicates they thought it
>> was a bomb rather than a hoax device?
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[leaking pen]

They never claimed they thought it was a bomb. They KNEW it wasnt a bomb.
They claim to have thought that he was trying to pass it off as a bomb to
scare people. (which is even more assinine)

On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> The Ahmed Mohamed case has swept the Internet. I hope the kid gets a
> normal life back. Anyway, I would like to point out something about this
> that clicked in my mind regarding cold fusion.
>
> This is a technical high school, specializing in engineering. The first
> teacher he showed it to saw it was a clock. I expect there are dozens of
> other teachers there who would instantly recognize it is a clock. So, when
> suspicion arose, and the kid and his clock were sent the principal's
> office, the principal should have called in one of the engineering teachers
> and asked "what is this?" The misunderstanding would have been cleared up
> instantly. Instead, the principal called the police. As you see from the
> news accounts the police knew nothing about electronics or bombs.
>
> Decades ago, when a technical questions arose, technical experts were
> called in, and the public accepted their judgement. There were laws that
> all children have to be inoculated against infectious disease. No one
> questioned these laws. An "anti-vaxer" movement in the 1950s, when the
> polio vaccine had just been developed, would have been unthinkable. All
> adults back then understood how dangerous polio is.
>
> Perhaps respect for authority and for expertise was too high back then.
> There were cases of that. But I think the pendulum has swung too far the
> other way. The tragedy of cold fusion is not that experts were wrong, but
> rather that experts were ignored. Decision makers ignored the scientific
> literature and did not listen to experts who had actually performed
> experiments. They turned instead to science journalists, then to ordinary
> journalists, to scientists who had no knowledge of the subject and who had
> read nothing, and finally, to anonymous people at Wikipedia who name
> themselves after comic book characters.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> The story includes one of the most stupid quotes from a police department
> spokesperson I have ever read:
>
> “We have no information that he claimed it was a bomb,” McLellan said. “He
> kept maintaining it was a clock, but there was no broader explanation.”
>
>
> Asked what broader explanation the boy could have given, the spokesman
> explained:
>
>
> “It could reasonably be mistaken as a device if left in a bathroom or
> under a car. The concern was, what was this thing built for? Do we take him
> into custody?”
>
>
> Broad?!? Call it broad or narrow, *the gadget was a clock*, and that was
> the one and only explanation, for crying out loud.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

James Bowery  wrote:

> The linked analysis posits that Ahmed's clock started out as another
> clock, rather than a box of parts . . .
>
Yes, that is what Ahmed said. He put together clock electronics with a new
LCD driver and power supply. It took him 20 minutes.


, and Ahmed can be said to have repackaged rather than "invented" a wholly
> new clock, but acknowledges that "none of us were there and knows what
> happened."
>
Actually, anyone who is paying attention to what the kid said knows what
happened. He said exactly what he did and how he did it. He already talks
like an engineer. Even talking about the interrogation, he uses more
technically accurate words and better grammar and diction than the idiot
policemen who arrested him.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

leaking pen  wrote:


> They never claimed they thought it was a bomb. They KNEW it wasnt a bomb.
> They claim to have thought that he was trying to pass it off as a bomb to
> scare people. (which is even more assinine)
>

I believe that was their fall back position. At first they said it was a
bomb. They demanded he confess to that. Then they said it was a fake bomb
and they demanded he confess to that, as well.

Making a fake bomb is a crime in Texas.

This does not look remotely like a bomb to me, but the policeman said it
looks like a "movie bomb."

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

James Bowery  wrote:

The real reason the police were called in:
>

[ref. fake bomb statute]

No, that is not the reason. The police were called in because the teacher
and principal thought it was a real bomb. That is what they accused the kid
of having.

You need to read the published accounts carefully.

Later they said it was because of that statute.

That statute would not apply in any case, because he never said or
insinuated it was a bomb, and anyone with knowledge of electronics who
glances at it can see it is not a bomb.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[James Bowery]

Ahmed Mohamed, His Clock, and the Curious Turn of Events

164

Posted by timothy  on Friday September 18,
2015 @03:48PM from the but-don't-make-a-pop-tart-gun dept.
New submitter poity  writes:After the news
first broke of the 9th grader getting cuffed

for
scaring school officials with what turned out to be a digital clock, Ahmed
Mohamed has experienced a surge of popular support — hailed as a genius and
a hero
,
with college scholarships, internship offers, and even an invitation to the
White House

by
President Obama himself. Now, amid rumors of possible racial discrimination
lawsuits against the school and local police, some people have begun to
more deeply scrutinize the details of the case, especially on the tech side
with regard to the homemade clock in question
.
Recently, a writer at the creative site Artvoice posted a remarkable
analysis of Ahmed's clock project
,
which raises new questions about the case and the manner in which people
and the media alike have reacted.The linked analysis posits that Ahmed's
clock started out as another clock, rather than a box of parts, and Ahmed
can be said to have repackaged rather than "invented" a wholly new clock,
but acknowledges that "none of us were there and knows what happened."
Twitter Facebook LinkedIn
Google+



On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Lawrence de Bivort 
wrote:

> Good thing Sailer isn't hallucinating or mind-reading here!
>
> Hmm. His dad ran for Sudanese president. How suspicious!
>
> Hmmm. Kid builds a clock and this means he is…demonizing the West!
>
>
> On Sep 18, 2015, at 12:31 PM, James Bowery  wrote:
>
> Keep providing payoffs in terms of moral authority and social status for
> this kind of behavior and you are going to keep getting more of it:
>
>
> Steve Sailer: I’m sure you’ve heard about the Sudanese Muslim immigrant
> kid in Texas who was arrested for bringing his home made electronic clock
> to school where Islamophobes worried that it was a time bomb beeping in his
> backpack. A reader points out that the kid’s dad is a publicity hound who
> routinely returns to Sudan to run for President and engages in other PR
> stunts
>
> S Sailer: If Ahmed were so smart, he’d know the difference between
> creating a circuit and stripping the guts from a manufactured clock. His
> dad helped him “make” this, and dad helped to make this “project” look as
> questionable as possible, within the realm of plausible deniability.
> Whatever agenda he’s advancing, it just further demonizes western society,
> and reminds us all to be guilty for how racist we all are.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Jed Rothwell 
> wrote:
>
>> Eric Walker  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Probably not.  But just in case, I will not bring something that looks
>>> vaguely like a bomb to my place of work.
>>>
>>
>> What if your place of work is a high school dedicated to teaching
>> engineering?!? I cannot think of a more appropriate thing to bring than an
>> electronics project. No one on the staff there would have thought this is a
>> bomb. It will not look "vaguely like a bomb" to them.
>>
>> This is like saying you should not bring a hammer to a construction site.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Alain Sepeda]

this devices does not look like a bomb.
too complex.
To be honest it does not even look like a clock, too complex.
It look like a single board computer of 1980 generation with LCD display.
This is probably what it is with modern controllers. The kid need some
years in electronic engineering school and better tools, before he can make
something small enough to look like a clock. He is at the level I was at
his age.

if someone with notion of electronics says that it looks like a bomb, I
remove even his bachelor of science immediately.

bomb is either much simpler, or you see specific devices to protect from
disarming, like captors, fake wires.
moreover you need a load.

moreover someone who make a fakebomb, and say it is not a bomb have no
intent deceive.

it is simple incompetence, nothing else to say.

this is in fact racist mixed with stupidity , incompetence, incapacity to
recognise it's own stupidity and mistakes, and as we see often, initial
stupidity is transmited in the group , kept by general incapaciity to
recognised own errors, and supported by general racism.

this is great, and memorable story.
digging a little you will probably see it is an example of groupthink.

probably there was many people able to see it was a clock, but some mind
guards probably was too dominant and frightened the weaker.


2015-09-17 23:24 GMT+02:00 Blaze Spinnaker :

> Any reasonably cautious person would say this thing looks like a hoax
> bomb:
> http://www.wired.com/2015/09/heres-bomb-clock-got-ahmed-mohamed-arrested/
>
>
> Making something that LOOKS LIKE A BOMB is a felony.  It's akin to
> shouting fire in a crowded theatre.  Again, I think the teachers over
> reacted a little, but I think it fell within a not so completely unexpected
> range of reasonable reactions.
>
> The only thing they screwed up on was letting the kid get photographed.
> He's 14.  There's no reason this needed to go on the internet and
> permanently harm him.
>
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Blaze Spinnaker  > wrote:
>
>> I will say one thing - the one thing I think everyone completely missed
>> was that there should not have been a picture of the kid in handcuffs and
>> it should have been handled much more discretely.The over reaction can
>> be excused, but it should have been done very very quietly.   That can not
>> be pardoned and I wish everyone would focus more on that so future
>> educators wouldn't make the same mistake.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Blaze Spinnaker <
>> blazespinna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> lol.   I love the outrage!   Such drama.   However simple reality is no
>>> one, and I mean no one, knows the facts on the ground.   Was it an
>>> overreaction?   Sure, most likely, but perhaps there is more to this than
>>> meets the eye.  Maybe the kid was spouting islamic stuff.
>>>
>>> Remember columbine, people.   Think of all the people who blame the
>>> teachers there for not doing anything.
>>>
>>> How about more support for our educators, here, they are caught in a
>>> very very hard spot - between over reacting and under reacting.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Bob Cook 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I think that the value system of the so called scientists and
 journalists that were involved in the P-F discrediting episode is
 inconsistent with what Jed implies they possessed--in other words scientist
 and journalist values.

 It seems to me they had values of capitalists and money grubbers and
 little, if any, scientist and journalist values.  Their values were to
 cover up nature's real face and spread false ideas.  They were not at
 fault.  They were simply acting in their best interests and according to
 their values. Lies and propaganda were appropriate actions based on their
 values.  And the acceptance of such values has not decreased in the
 corporate world and independent scientific community, but it has increased
 with time IMHO.

 They were vassals of the "science kings" and did not want to kill the
 goose that gave them their golden eggs.

 I think this undesirable value system is a political issue that should
 be addressed--the sooner the better for civilization.  Gay marriage does
 not hold a candle to the importance of this issue in my mind, yet it seems
 to get more attention in the press and by politicians--what a travesty.
 Again it is consistent with journalist and political values unfortunately.

 Bob Cook

 - Original Message -
 *From:* Jed Rothwell 
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
 *Sent:* Thursday, September 17, 2015 6:58 AM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

 Alain Sepeda  wrote:


> The problem of cold fusion was incompetence of the particle and plasma
> physicist in 

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lawrence de Bivort]

Good thing Sailer isn't hallucinating or mind-reading here!

Hmm. His dad ran for Sudanese president. How suspicious!

Hmmm. Kid builds a clock and this means he is…demonizing the West!  


On Sep 18, 2015, at 12:31 PM, James Bowery  wrote:

> Keep providing payoffs in terms of moral authority and social status for this 
> kind of behavior and you are going to keep getting more of it:
> 
> 
> Steve Sailer: I’m sure you’ve heard about the Sudanese Muslim immigrant kid 
> in Texas who was arrested for bringing his home made electronic clock to 
> school where Islamophobes worried that it was a time bomb beeping in his 
> backpack. A reader points out that the kid’s dad is a publicity hound who 
> routinely returns to Sudan to run for President and engages in other PR stunts
> 
> S Sailer: If Ahmed were so smart, he’d know the difference between creating a 
> circuit and stripping the guts from a manufactured clock. His dad helped him 
> “make” this, and dad helped to make this “project” look as questionable as 
> possible, within the realm of plausible deniability. Whatever agenda he’s 
> advancing, it just further demonizes western society, and reminds us all to 
> be guilty for how racist we all are.
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> Eric Walker  wrote:
>  
> Probably not.  But just in case, I will not bring something that looks 
> vaguely like a bomb to my place of work.
> 
> What if your place of work is a high school dedicated to teaching 
> engineering?!? I cannot think of a more appropriate thing to bring than an 
> electronics project. No one on the staff there would have thought this is a 
> bomb. It will not look "vaguely like a bomb" to them.
> 
> This is like saying you should not bring a hammer to a construction site.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

S. Sailer said:


> His dad helped him “make” this, and dad helped to make this “project” look
> as questionable as possible, within the realm of plausible deniability.
>

In this case "as questionable as possible" means "not even slightly
questionable to anyone who knows the first thing about electronics."

The notion that this would scare people who teach engineering for a living
is . . . ignorant. The only people who say this are science illiterates.

Also, I doubt that his dad had anything to do with it.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

Eric Walker  wrote:


> Probably not.  But just in case, I will not bring something that looks
> vaguely like a bomb to my place of work.
>

What if your place of work is a high school dedicated to teaching
engineering?!? I cannot think of a more appropriate thing to bring than an
electronics project. No one on the staff there would have thought this is a
bomb. It will not look "vaguely like a bomb" to them.

This is like saying you should not bring a hammer to a construction site.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[James Bowery]

Keep providing payoffs in terms of moral authority and social status for
this kind of behavior and you are going to keep getting more of it:


Steve Sailer: I’m sure you’ve heard about the Sudanese Muslim immigrant kid
in Texas who was arrested for bringing his home made electronic clock to
school where Islamophobes worried that it was a time bomb beeping in his
backpack. A reader points out that the kid’s dad is a publicity hound who
routinely returns to Sudan to run for President and engages in other PR
stunts

S Sailer: If Ahmed were so smart, he’d know the difference between creating
a circuit and stripping the guts from a manufactured clock. His dad helped
him “make” this, and dad helped to make this “project” look as questionable
as possible, within the realm of plausible deniability. Whatever agenda
he’s advancing, it just further demonizes western society, and reminds us
all to be guilty for how racist we all are.



On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Eric Walker  wrote:
>
>
>> Probably not.  But just in case, I will not bring something that looks
>> vaguely like a bomb to my place of work.
>>
>
> What if your place of work is a high school dedicated to teaching
> engineering?!? I cannot think of a more appropriate thing to bring than an
> electronics project. No one on the staff there would have thought this is a
> bomb. It will not look "vaguely like a bomb" to them.
>
> This is like saying you should not bring a hammer to a construction site.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[James Bowery]

What physical precautions did they take that indicates they thought it was
a bomb rather than a hoax device?



On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> James Bowery  wrote:
>
> The real reason the police were called in:
>>
>
> [ref. fake bomb statute]
>
> No, that is not the reason. The police were called in because the teacher
> and principal thought it was a real bomb. That is what they accused the kid
> of having.
>
> You need to read the published accounts carefully.
>
> Later they said it was because of that statute.
>
> That statute would not apply in any case, because he never said or
> insinuated it was a bomb, and anyone with knowledge of electronics who
> glances at it can see it is not a bomb.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Eric Walker]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Lawrence de Bivort 
wrote:

Let's say that the kid's clock looked like a Hollywood bomb.
>

Yes, let's acknowledge this simple point, for our own credibility.  Let's
go further for the sake of completeness -- it's missing the explosives.

The kid gets accosted by school personnel. So far so good. But instead of
> handcuffing him, belittling him, calling the cops, and suspending him,
> intelligent school personnel would have looked at the clock seen that it
> was no bomb, warned the kid to not pretend it was a bomb, and sent him off
> to class. End of story.
>

Not the end of story.  Will the kid try to put explosives in it in a week
or two and come back to school?  Probably not.  Maybe.

You don't think islamophonia and racism didn't have a major role to play in
> what actually happened? Please.
>

I haven't argued there was no islamophobia.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Eric Walker]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:26 AM, Alain Sepeda 
wrote:

if someone with notion of electronics says that it looks like a bomb, I
> remove even his bachelor of science immediately.
>

You and Jed have both missed the point.  The skill that went into the thing
has nothing to do with what is of concern.  The intention is what is of
concern.  What does a young kid who brought such a thing to a school intend
to do?  Perhaps the intention was harmless, or perhaps it was other than
harmless.  Now the school administration has a situation to sort out. The
thing looked like a stage prop from Mission Impossible.  It does not look
like an accurate prop, or a finished prop.  But it definitely looks like
the makings of a Hollywood briefcase bomb.  Anyone who argues against this
only discredits himself, greatly.  The kid said it was just a clock.  He
may have discredited himself in the process, perhaps escalating things.

In an earlier time, this might have just been a harmless electronics
project.  In this time, there are additional considerations to be taken
into account.  None of this is to say that there was no racism in the
incident.  But ignore Mohamed's race and religion for a moment, and the
concerns remain.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Alain Sepeda]

since bomb squad was not called, since they kept the bomb witrh the
policemen, and did not evacuate the zone, it is clear they never believed
it was a bomb.

if they did not believed it was a bomb but arrested the kid, 
why?

now it is more clear, and at least you cannot accuse an technology
professor of being so incompetent, and policemen so stupid.

it is more classic.
it least they did not shoot him.

2015-09-18 15:48 GMT+02:00 Lennart Thornros :

> Hello Guys ,
> I like this discussion.
> The real solution is to make the definition; what is a fake bomb?
> How does it look?
> Goes it sound?
> Any significant thing that gives away that this is a bomb?
> Blaze says , "It is a felony to make a fake bomb".
> Anything can be considered looking as a bomb.
> Conclusion; we are all felons and will soon be in prison.
>
>
> Best Regards ,
> Lennart Thornros
>
> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
> lenn...@thornros.com
> +1 916 436 1899
> 202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648
>
> “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 6:24 AM, Eric Walker 
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:26 AM, Alain Sepeda 
>> wrote:
>>
>> if someone with notion of electronics says that it looks like a bomb, I
>>> remove even his bachelor of science immediately.
>>>
>>
>> You and Jed have both missed the point.  The skill that went into the
>> thing has nothing to do with what is of concern.  The intention is what is
>> of concern.  What does a young kid who brought such a thing to a school
>> intend to do?  Perhaps the intention was harmless, or perhaps it was other
>> than harmless.  Now the school administration has a situation to sort out.
>> The thing looked like a stage prop from Mission Impossible.  It does not
>> look like an accurate prop, or a finished prop.  But it definitely looks
>> like the makings of a Hollywood briefcase bomb.  Anyone who argues against
>> this only discredits himself, greatly.  The kid said it was just a clock.
>> He may have discredited himself in the process, perhaps escalating things.
>>
>> In an earlier time, this might have just been a harmless electronics
>> project.  In this time, there are additional considerations to be taken
>> into account.  None of this is to say that there was no racism in the
>> incident.  But ignore Mohamed's race and religion for a moment, and the
>> concerns remain.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

Eric Walker  wrote:


> You and Jed have both missed the point.  The skill that went into the
> thing has nothing to do with what is of concern.  The intention is what is
> of concern.  What does a young kid who brought such a thing to a school
> intend to do?
>

He clearly stated that he intended to show it to a teacher, and that is
what he did! How can there be any confusion?



>   Perhaps the intention was harmless, or perhaps it was other than
> harmless.  Now the school administration has a situation to sort out.
>

No, this is a technical school chock full of teachers who could glance at
the device and instantly "sort it out." Any one of them could have told the
administrator "that's a clock -- nothing to worry about." The administrator
should have had enough sense to call in one at the start.

It is like feeling ill when you are in a hospital surrounded by doctors. If
you think you may have a problem, there are hundreds of experts right there
who can help. So you need not call 911.

The kid clearly did not intend too fool anyone with a fake bomb, because
you cannot fool people who teach engineering for a living.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lennart Thornros]

Hello Guys ,
I like this discussion.
The real solution is to make the definition; what is a fake bomb?
How does it look?
Goes it sound?
Any significant thing that gives away that this is a bomb?
Blaze says , "It is a felony to make a fake bomb".
Anything can be considered looking as a bomb.
Conclusion; we are all felons and will soon be in prison.


Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 6:24 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:26 AM, Alain Sepeda 
> wrote:
>
> if someone with notion of electronics says that it looks like a bomb, I
>> remove even his bachelor of science immediately.
>>
>
> You and Jed have both missed the point.  The skill that went into the
> thing has nothing to do with what is of concern.  The intention is what is
> of concern.  What does a young kid who brought such a thing to a school
> intend to do?  Perhaps the intention was harmless, or perhaps it was other
> than harmless.  Now the school administration has a situation to sort out.
> The thing looked like a stage prop from Mission Impossible.  It does not
> look like an accurate prop, or a finished prop.  But it definitely looks
> like the makings of a Hollywood briefcase bomb.  Anyone who argues against
> this only discredits himself, greatly.  The kid said it was just a clock.
> He may have discredited himself in the process, perhaps escalating things.
>
> In an earlier time, this might have just been a harmless electronics
> project.  In this time, there are additional considerations to be taken
> into account.  None of this is to say that there was no racism in the
> incident.  But ignore Mohamed's race and religion for a moment, and the
> concerns remain.
>
> Eric
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lawrence de Bivort]

Let's say that the kid's clock looked like a Hollywood bomb. The kid gets 
accosted by school personnel. So far so good. But instead of handcuffing him, 
belittling him, calling the cops, and suspending him, intelligent school 
personnel would have looked at the clock seen that it was no bomb, warned the 
kid to not pretend it was a bomb, and sent him off to class. End of story. 

You don't think islamophonia and racism didn't have a major role to play in 
what actually happened? Please. 

Too many Americans have proven themselves easy to scare, and the bigots have 
stepped in and taken advantage of this. 

The result is a country in which irrationality and irrational behavior is 
excused by claiming fear. We see this in our foreign policy; we see it in the 
instance of a kid with his 
clock-that-to-some-think-looks-like-a-Hollywood-bomb-but-isn't. 

Cheers,
Larry


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 18, 2015, at 7:24 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:26 AM, Alain Sepeda  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> if someone with notion of electronics says that it looks like a bomb, I 
>> remove even his bachelor of science immediately.
> 
> You and Jed have both missed the point.  The skill that went into the thing 
> has nothing to do with what is of concern.  The intention is what is of 
> concern.  What does a young kid who brought such a thing to a school intend 
> to do?  Perhaps the intention was harmless, or perhaps it was other than 
> harmless.  Now the school administration has a situation to sort out. The 
> thing looked like a stage prop from Mission Impossible.  It does not look 
> like an accurate prop, or a finished prop.  But it definitely looks like the 
> makings of a Hollywood briefcase bomb.  Anyone who argues against this only 
> discredits himself, greatly.  The kid said it was just a clock.  He may have 
> discredited himself in the process, perhaps escalating things.
> 
> In an earlier time, this might have just been a harmless electronics project. 
>  In this time, there are additional considerations to be taken into account.  
> None of this is to say that there was no racism in the incident.  But ignore 
> Mohamed's race and religion for a moment, and the concerns remain.
> 
> Eric
> 

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Alain Sepeda]

oops, not LCD, but LED... no LCD affordable at my time.

2015-09-18 9:26 GMT+02:00 Alain Sepeda :

> this devices does not look like a bomb.
> too complex.
> To be honest it does not even look like a clock, too complex.
> It look like a single board computer of 1980 generation with LCD display.
> This is probably what it is with modern controllers. The kid need some
> years in electronic engineering school and better tools, before he can make
> something small enough to look like a clock. He is at the level I was at
> his age.
>
> if someone with notion of electronics says that it looks like a bomb, I
> remove even his bachelor of science immediately.
>
> bomb is either much simpler, or you see specific devices to protect from
> disarming, like captors, fake wires.
> moreover you need a load.
>
> moreover someone who make a fakebomb, and say it is not a bomb have no
> intent deceive.
>
> it is simple incompetence, nothing else to say.
>
> this is in fact racist mixed with stupidity , incompetence, incapacity to
> recognise it's own stupidity and mistakes, and as we see often, initial
> stupidity is transmited in the group , kept by general incapaciity to
> recognised own errors, and supported by general racism.
>
> this is great, and memorable story.
> digging a little you will probably see it is an example of groupthink.
>
> probably there was many people able to see it was a clock, but some mind
> guards probably was too dominant and frightened the weaker.
>
>
> 2015-09-17 23:24 GMT+02:00 Blaze Spinnaker :
>
>> Any reasonably cautious person would say this thing looks like a hoax
>> bomb:
>> http://www.wired.com/2015/09/heres-bomb-clock-got-ahmed-mohamed-arrested/
>>
>>
>> Making something that LOOKS LIKE A BOMB is a felony.  It's akin to
>> shouting fire in a crowded theatre.  Again, I think the teachers over
>> reacted a little, but I think it fell within a not so completely unexpected
>> range of reasonable reactions.
>>
>> The only thing they screwed up on was letting the kid get photographed.
>> He's 14.  There's no reason this needed to go on the internet and
>> permanently harm him.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Blaze Spinnaker <
>> blazespinna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I will say one thing - the one thing I think everyone completely missed
>>> was that there should not have been a picture of the kid in handcuffs and
>>> it should have been handled much more discretely.The over reaction can
>>> be excused, but it should have been done very very quietly.   That can not
>>> be pardoned and I wish everyone would focus more on that so future
>>> educators wouldn't make the same mistake.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Blaze Spinnaker <
>>> blazespinna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 lol.   I love the outrage!   Such drama.   However simple reality is no
 one, and I mean no one, knows the facts on the ground.   Was it an
 overreaction?   Sure, most likely, but perhaps there is more to this than
 meets the eye.  Maybe the kid was spouting islamic stuff.

 Remember columbine, people.   Think of all the people who blame the
 teachers there for not doing anything.

 How about more support for our educators, here, they are caught in a
 very very hard spot - between over reacting and under reacting.

 On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Bob Cook 
 wrote:

> I think that the value system of the so called scientists and
> journalists that were involved in the P-F discrediting episode is
> inconsistent with what Jed implies they possessed--in other words 
> scientist
> and journalist values.
>
> It seems to me they had values of capitalists and money grubbers and
> little, if any, scientist and journalist values.  Their values were to
> cover up nature's real face and spread false ideas.  They were not at
> fault.  They were simply acting in their best interests and according to
> their values. Lies and propaganda were appropriate actions based on their
> values.  And the acceptance of such values has not decreased in the
> corporate world and independent scientific community, but it has increased
> with time IMHO.
>
> They were vassals of the "science kings" and did not want to kill the
> goose that gave them their golden eggs.
>
> I think this undesirable value system is a political issue that should
> be addressed--the sooner the better for civilization.  Gay marriage does
> not hold a candle to the importance of this issue in my mind, yet it seems
> to get more attention in the press and by politicians--what a travesty.
> Again it is consistent with journalist and political values unfortunately.
>
> Bob Cook
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Jed Rothwell 
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Eric Walker]

You seem intent on distorting my position.  You give the impression of
being naive.  I want school administrators asking those questions.  I don't
want them reacting the way the ones in Texas did.

Eric


On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 9:22 AM, Lawrence de Bivort 
wrote:

> So anyone's "concerns" are grounds enough for breaking the law? For
> unbridled bigotry?  Remember the mainstay of our legal system, "innocent
> until proven guilty?"  Or does your fear justify tearing up our
> Constitution?
>
> Gee. I have concerns about bigots and sadists masquerading as police
> officers. Most officers are decent, caring people. But some aren't.  And
> polygamists! Oh oh. And people who believe that vaccines cause autism.
> Yikes!
>
> I have concerns about a lot of things and people. But I don't call for
> their persecution because "maybe" my "concerns" might happen.
>
> A bomb, after all, is a bomb whether it looks like one or not.
>
> You, Eric, COULD hide your gun in your lunch pail, or in your brief case,
> or the frame of your bike, or truck of your car…. probably not. Maybe.
>
> Believe me -- I see the nuances. They are the same nuances that cloaked
> bigotry throughout the ages. Anti-Christian bigotry during the roman
> empire, anti-Celtish, anti-Irish, anti-immigrant, anti-native peoples,
> anti-black, anti-Jewish, anti-intellectual, anti-"gook," anti-women,
> anti-Arab, anti-Muslim….it is a long list, but at its heart these "nuances"
> are there to justify anti-"anyone not exactly like me."
>
> Lawry
>
>
>
> On Sep 18, 2015, at 9:28 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Lawrence de Bivort 
> wrote:
>
> Well, hell, Eric.
>> Will YOU build a bomb next week and kill people?  Probably not. Maybe.
>>
>
> Probably not.  But just in case, I will not bring something that looks
> vaguely like a bomb to my place of work.  Nor will I bring something that
> looks vaguely like a gun to work.  Because I am aware it might raise
> concerns.
>
> People are unable to see the nuance in this case.  I'm done trying to make
> any further points.
>
> Eric
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lawrence de Bivort]

So anyone's "concerns" are grounds enough for breaking the law? For unbridled 
bigotry?  Remember the mainstay of our legal system, "innocent until proven 
guilty?"  Or does your fear justify tearing up our Constitution?

Gee. I have concerns about bigots and sadists masquerading as police officers. 
Most officers are decent, caring people. But some aren't.  And polygamists! Oh 
oh. And people who believe that vaccines cause autism. Yikes!

I have concerns about a lot of things and people. But I don't call for their 
persecution because "maybe" my "concerns" might happen.

A bomb, after all, is a bomb whether it looks like one or not.

You, Eric, COULD hide your gun in your lunch pail, or in your brief case, or 
the frame of your bike, or truck of your car…. probably not. Maybe.

Believe me -- I see the nuances. They are the same nuances that cloaked bigotry 
throughout the ages. Anti-Christian bigotry during the roman empire, 
anti-Celtish, anti-Irish, anti-immigrant, anti-native peoples, anti-black, 
anti-Jewish, anti-intellectual, anti-"gook," anti-women, anti-Arab, 
anti-Muslim….it is a long list, but at its heart these "nuances" are there to 
justify anti-"anyone not exactly like me."

Lawry



On Sep 18, 2015, at 9:28 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Lawrence de Bivort  
> wrote:
> 
> Well, hell, Eric. 
> Will YOU build a bomb next week and kill people?  Probably not. Maybe. 
> 
> Probably not.  But just in case, I will not bring something that looks 
> vaguely like a bomb to my place of work.  Nor will I bring something that 
> looks vaguely like a gun to work.  Because I am aware it might raise concerns.
> 
> People are unable to see the nuance in this case.  I'm done trying to make 
> any further points.
> 
> Eric
> 

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lennart Thornros]

Larry,
I agree with you. There is a constant fear for doing what one think is
logical and instead give in to fear. Thus creating stupid, non-enforceable
laws, which needs exemptions and support laws to cover the loopholes and
then we have this situation when we do not allow LENR (as an example) as it
might effect someones position for tenure.
Columbine, yes we all agree we need no more of that. The reasons why it
happened is of course the target for a discussion with no finality (one
party has stopped giving info). My point is that to stop the next incident
new laws and different measures of generic nature will have no impact on
the outcome. It requires logical and straight forward thinking people with
personal courage to act to do that. Something, which is very hard to foster
or demand.

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Lawrence de Bivort 
wrote:

> The biggest tragedy is that adults have failed to learn an important
> lesson--don't pander to your fears, don't embrace your bigotry, and don't
> throw our laws (against false arrest, and the right of adolescents to have
> their parents present when they are being interrogated) for example) and
> racial profiling.
>
> A bomb can be hidden in a thick school book. Let's ban school books in
> schools  They are probably not a bomb. Maybe, though!!!
>
>
> Blaming Ahmed for not learning lessons is blaming the victim for what was
> done to him.
>
>
>
> On Sep 18, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson <
> orionwo...@charter.net> wrote:
>
> Ahmed gets his revenge in TIME Magazine:
>> http://time.com/4038305/ahmed-mohamed-clock-mit/?xid=newsletter-brief
>
>
> The biggest tragedy is that Ahmed appears to have failed to learn an
> important lesson in the incident -- don't bring something that looks
> vaguely like a bomb to school.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Eric Walker]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson <
orionwo...@charter.net> wrote:
>
> I disagree. The concerns would have vanished, if not had been greatly
> reduced.
>
You guys appear to be forgetting the Columbine high school massacre.

Eric

RE: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson]

Ahmed gets his revenge in TIME Magazine:

 

http://time.com/4038305/ahmed-mohamed-clock-mit/?xid=newsletter-brief

 

Excerpt:

 

But during the press conference, Mohamed explained what he really wants to do: 
go to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology for collage. In the meantime, 
he added, "I'm thinking about transferring from McArthur to any different 
school."

 

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

OrionWorks.com

zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Eric Walker]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson <
orionwo...@charter.net> wrote:

Ahmed gets his revenge in TIME Magazine:
> http://time.com/4038305/ahmed-mohamed-clock-mit/?xid=newsletter-brief


The biggest tragedy is that Ahmed appears to have failed to learn an
important lesson in the incident -- don't bring something that looks
vaguely like a bomb to school.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lawrence de Bivort]

Well, hell, Eric. 
Will YOU build a bomb next week and kill people?  Probably not. Maybe. 

Maybe!  This is mere hysteria. Maybe. 
If we arrest people and harass them on the grounds of potential 'maybe's, then 
everyone should be locked up right away. 

Oh, wait. Maybe the police are maybe going to turn out to be bombers, too. And 
the jailers. So the police should lock up the police too. Because of "maybe."

Maybe your Cheerios have been poisoned. After all, it could be true. Let's 
arrest the clerk who rang your Cheerios up. Because, maybe, he is in on it. 

Of course, probably not. But maybe in your world, "maybe" is sufficient. 

Cheers,
Lawry

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 18, 2015, at 8:45 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Lawrence de Bivort  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Let's say that the kid's clock looked like a Hollywood bomb.
> 
> Yes, let's acknowledge this simple point, for our own credibility.  Let's go 
> further for the sake of completeness -- it's missing the explosives.
> 
>> The kid gets accosted by school personnel. So far so good. But instead of 
>> handcuffing him, belittling him, calling the cops, and suspending him, 
>> intelligent school personnel would have looked at the clock seen that it was 
>> no bomb, warned the kid to not pretend it was a bomb, and sent him off to 
>> class. End of story.
> 
> Not the end of story.  Will the kid try to put explosives in it in a week or 
> two and come back to school?  Probably not.  Maybe.
> 
>> You don't think islamophonia and racism didn't have a major role to play in 
>> what actually happened? Please. 
> 
> I haven't argued there was no islamophobia.
> 
> Eric
> 

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Daniel Rocha]

That's a case of xenophobia. Just that. Ahmed=arab=terrorist

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lawrence de Bivort]

The biggest tragedy is that adults have failed to learn an important 
lesson--don't pander to your fears, don't embrace your bigotry, and don't throw 
our laws (against false arrest, and the right of adolescents to have their 
parents present when they are being interrogated) for example) and racial 
profiling.

A bomb can be hidden in a thick school book. Let's ban school books in 
schools  They are probably not a bomb. Maybe, though!!!


Blaming Ahmed for not learning lessons is blaming the victim for what was done 
to him.


On Sep 18, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson 
>  wrote:
> 
> Ahmed gets his revenge in TIME Magazine:
> http://time.com/4038305/ahmed-mohamed-clock-mit/?xid=newsletter-brief
> 
> The biggest tragedy is that Ahmed appears to have failed to learn an 
> important lesson in the incident -- don't bring something that looks vaguely 
> like a bomb to school.
> 
> Eric
>  

RE: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson]

>From Eric

 

>  But ignore Mohamed's race and religion for a moment, and the concerns remain.

 

I disagree. The concerns would have vanished, if not had been greatly reduced.

 

>From my POV it appears that the argument you are making, as well as the school 
>administrator's POV, were NOT ignoring Mohamed's race and religion. If Ahmed's 
>skin had been white and his name, Arnold, I seriously doubt this regrettable 
>fiasco would have even raised to a fleeting level of amused interest in the 
>high school cafeteria among fellow nerds.

 

Well... maybe not if a Caucasian looking Ahmed had turned around and said to 
the teacher, "All be back." ;-)

 

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

OrionWorks.com

zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Eric Walker]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Lawrence de Bivort 
wrote:

Well, hell, Eric.
> Will YOU build a bomb next week and kill people?  Probably not. Maybe.
>

Probably not.  But just in case, I will not bring something that looks
vaguely like a bomb to my place of work.  Nor will I bring something that
looks vaguely like a gun to work.  Because I am aware it might raise
concerns.

People are unable to see the nuance in this case.  I'm done trying to make
any further points.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lawrence de Bivort]

I don't forget it. I was directly affected by it.

Nor do I forget the atmosphere of bullying that the Columbine principal and 
coaches fostered in the school, and how the students-turned-killers were the 
standing target of that bullying.

When will people learn that when people are mistreated, some of them will fight 
back?


On Sep 18, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:

> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson 
>  wrote: 
> 
> I disagree. The concerns would have vanished, if not had been greatly reduced.
> 
> You guys appear to be forgetting the Columbine high school massacre.
> 
> Eric
> 

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lawrence de Bivort]

" I don't want them reacting the way the ones in Texas did."

Thank you for this, Eric.

To react differently, people have to change their thinking, abandon their 
emotional and cognitive scarring from the past, eschew their bigotries, 
challenge their own assumptions and the assertions of "leaders" who prey on 
their fears.  Is it naive to suggest these requirements? 

Perhaps. But if this can't be done by those with authority, then truly our 
country is in perilous condition.

I retain the hope that as we have demonstrated in the past (e.g. 
JapaneseAmerican WWII internment, cigarette smoking, women suffrage, awareness 
of environmental damage caused by human activity) that we Americans, like 
peoples elsewhere, have the ability to discern even deeply embedded social and 
political and mental mistakes and correct our course.  

Is this naive? Perhaps.

But I would prefer to pursue a naive course of action -- no matter how small 
the odds of success are--than to accept passively a deep situation that clearly 
harms our society, endangers our kids future, and limits the manifestation of 
human qualities and aspirations.

Lawry




On Sep 18, 2015, at 10:45 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:

>  I don't want them reacting the way the ones in Texas did.

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Alain Sepeda]

on the kid story, this is not new, and Bruce Schneier explain well that it
is security theater, and that there is serious way to manage security.
I advise to read Beyond Fear
https://www.schneier.com/books/beyond_fear/
great book, as all his books on cryptography are.

I remember of a case of some big advertising panel for a movie, with
blinking LIGN that was accused of frightening people...



on experts, even if i'm the first to moan on academics (not on scientists,
and sometime nor fairly) I follow the position of beaudette in Excess Heat
http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.edu.cn/lenr%20home%20page/acrobat/BeaudetteCexcessheat.pdf#page=35

The problem of cold fusion was incompetence of the particle and plasma
physicist in calorimetry.

These people were in fact not totally incompetent, just not enough to
understanf Fleischmann and trust calorimetry, but too much to be modest
and not to imagine artifacts from their armchair.

more generally i see a great problem, around pathological skepticism on
anything, as much as scaremongering and pseudo medicines, as more and more
people are enough educated to beigin to understand scientific conceptsz,
but not enough to understand their own limits.

I see that in cryptography, where experts, except an expreme minority, are
aware that they have to use known and standard scheme and implementation,
because designing it yourself is too dangerous.
Modesty is something you have when you are totally incompetent, or enough
experienced.
unexperience mid-competent people can be fooled easily.

this is today most of the population, on most of questions.

another point, even worst , and which even, explain the distrust for
authorities, is that we name as "experts" sometime people who are not.
Physicist were said expert in LENr, while only chemist and material
physicist should be allowed to talk on that subject.

worst of all, full science domain may be run by people whose competence are
exaggerated, and whose modesty facing to the uncertainty is insufficient.

more generally I see a problem of modesty, which is a characteristic of
experience, and anticorelated with education.

2015-09-17 2:57 GMT+02:00 Jed Rothwell :

> The Ahmed Mohamed case has swept the Internet. I hope the kid gets a
> normal life back. Anyway, I would like to point out something about this
> that clicked in my mind regarding cold fusion.
>
> This is a technical high school, specializing in engineering. The first
> teacher he showed it to saw it was a clock. I expect there are dozens of
> other teachers there who would instantly recognize it is a clock. So, when
> suspicion arose, and the kid and his clock were sent the principal's
> office, the principal should have called in one of the engineering teachers
> and asked "what is this?" The misunderstanding would have been cleared up
> instantly. Instead, the principal called the police. As you see from the
> news accounts the police knew nothing about electronics or bombs.
>
> Decades ago, when a technical questions arose, technical experts were
> called in, and the public accepted their judgement. There were laws that
> all children have to be inoculated against infectious disease. No one
> questioned these laws. An "anti-vaxer" movement in the 1950s, when the
> polio vaccine had just been developed, would have been unthinkable. All
> adults back then understood how dangerous polio is.
>
> Perhaps respect for authority and for expertise was too high back then.
> There were cases of that. But I think the pendulum has swung too far the
> other way. The tragedy of cold fusion is not that experts were wrong, but
> rather that experts were ignored. Decision makers ignored the scientific
> literature and did not listen to experts who had actually performed
> experiments. They turned instead to science journalists, then to ordinary
> journalists, to scientists who had no knowledge of the subject and who had
> read nothing, and finally, to anonymous people at Wikipedia who name
> themselves after comic book characters.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> The story includes one of the most stupid quotes from a police department
> spokesperson I have ever read:
>
> “We have no information that he claimed it was a bomb,” McLellan said. “He
> kept maintaining it was a clock, but there was no broader explanation.”
>
>
> Asked what broader explanation the boy could have given, the spokesman
> explained:
>
>
> “It could reasonably be mistaken as a device if left in a bathroom or
> under a car. The concern was, what was this thing built for? Do we take him
> into custody?”
>
>
> Broad?!? Call it broad or narrow, *the gadget was a clock*, and that was
> the one and only explanation, for crying out loud.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Blaze Spinnaker]

lol.   I love the outrage!   Such drama.   However simple reality is no
one, and I mean no one, knows the facts on the ground.   Was it an
overreaction?   Sure, most likely, but perhaps there is more to this than
meets the eye.  Maybe the kid was spouting islamic stuff.

Remember columbine, people.   Think of all the people who blame the
teachers there for not doing anything.

How about more support for our educators, here, they are caught in a very
very hard spot - between over reacting and under reacting.

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Bob Cook  wrote:

> I think that the value system of the so called scientists and journalists
> that were involved in the P-F discrediting episode is inconsistent with
> what Jed implies they possessed--in other words scientist and journalist
> values.
>
> It seems to me they had values of capitalists and money grubbers and
> little, if any, scientist and journalist values.  Their values were to
> cover up nature's real face and spread false ideas.  They were not at
> fault.  They were simply acting in their best interests and according to
> their values. Lies and propaganda were appropriate actions based on their
> values.  And the acceptance of such values has not decreased in the
> corporate world and independent scientific community, but it has increased
> with time IMHO.
>
> They were vassals of the "science kings" and did not want to kill the
> goose that gave them their golden eggs.
>
> I think this undesirable value system is a political issue that should be
> addressed--the sooner the better for civilization.  Gay marriage does not
> hold a candle to the importance of this issue in my mind, yet it seems to
> get more attention in the press and by politicians--what a travesty.  Again
> it is consistent with journalist and political values unfortunately.
>
> Bob Cook
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Jed Rothwell 
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 17, 2015 6:58 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts
>
> Alain Sepeda  wrote:
>
>
>> The problem of cold fusion was incompetence of the particle and plasma
>> physicist in calorimetry.
>>
>> These people were in fact not totally incompetent, just not enough to
>> understanf Fleischmann and trust calorimetry, but too much to be modest
>> and not to imagine artifacts from their armchair.
>>
>
> I agree.
>
> I think there was plenty of blame to go around: it was not only the fault
> of the science journalists or the physicists. However, I think a larger
> share of the blame goes to science journalists and especially the editors
> of Nature magazine. In an academic dispute you will find scientists lining
> up on both sides, including incompetent scientists to pontificate about
> things outside their own expertise. A journal such as Nature or Scientific
> American should make an effort to present both sides of the dispute. That
> did not happen with cold fusion.
>
> As Mike Melich says, to this day, the US is letting the editors of Nature
> decide our energy policy.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Bob Cook]

I think that the value system of the so called scientists and journalists that 
were involved in the P-F discrediting episode is inconsistent with what Jed 
implies they possessed--in other words scientist and journalist values. 

It seems to me they had values of capitalists and money grubbers and little, if 
any, scientist and journalist values.  Their values were to cover up nature's 
real face and spread false ideas.  They were not at fault.  They were simply 
acting in their best interests and according to their values. Lies and 
propaganda were appropriate actions based on their values.  And the acceptance 
of such values has not decreased in the corporate world and independent 
scientific community, but it has increased with time IMHO. 

They were vassals of the "science kings" and did not want to kill the goose 
that gave them their golden eggs.

I think this undesirable value system is a political issue that should be 
addressed--the sooner the better for civilization.  Gay marriage does not hold 
a candle to the importance of this issue in my mind, yet it seems to get more 
attention in the press and by politicians--what a travesty.  Again it is 
consistent with journalist and political values unfortunately.

Bob Cook
  - Original Message - 
  From: Jed Rothwell 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 6:58 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts


  Alain Sepeda  wrote:

The problem of cold fusion was incompetence of the particle and plasma 
physicist in calorimetry.


These people were in fact not totally incompetent, just not enough to 
understanf Fleischmann and trust calorimetry, but too much to be modest and 
not to imagine artifacts from their armchair.


  I agree.


  I think there was plenty of blame to go around: it was not only the fault of 
the science journalists or the physicists. However, I think a larger share of 
the blame goes to science journalists and especially the editors of Nature 
magazine. In an academic dispute you will find scientists lining up on both 
sides, including incompetent scientists to pontificate about things outside 
their own expertise. A journal such as Nature or Scientific American should 
make an effort to present both sides of the dispute. That did not happen with 
cold fusion.


  As Mike Melich says, to this day, the US is letting the editors of Nature 
decide our energy policy.


  - Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Blaze Spinnaker]

I will say one thing - the one thing I think everyone completely missed was
that there should not have been a picture of the kid in handcuffs and it
should have been handled much more discretely.The over reaction can be
excused, but it should have been done very very quietly.   That can not be
pardoned and I wish everyone would focus more on that so future educators
wouldn't make the same mistake.

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Blaze Spinnaker 
wrote:

> lol.   I love the outrage!   Such drama.   However simple reality is no
> one, and I mean no one, knows the facts on the ground.   Was it an
> overreaction?   Sure, most likely, but perhaps there is more to this than
> meets the eye.  Maybe the kid was spouting islamic stuff.
>
> Remember columbine, people.   Think of all the people who blame the
> teachers there for not doing anything.
>
> How about more support for our educators, here, they are caught in a very
> very hard spot - between over reacting and under reacting.
>
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Bob Cook  wrote:
>
>> I think that the value system of the so called scientists and journalists
>> that were involved in the P-F discrediting episode is inconsistent with
>> what Jed implies they possessed--in other words scientist and journalist
>> values.
>>
>> It seems to me they had values of capitalists and money grubbers and
>> little, if any, scientist and journalist values.  Their values were to
>> cover up nature's real face and spread false ideas.  They were not at
>> fault.  They were simply acting in their best interests and according to
>> their values. Lies and propaganda were appropriate actions based on their
>> values.  And the acceptance of such values has not decreased in the
>> corporate world and independent scientific community, but it has increased
>> with time IMHO.
>>
>> They were vassals of the "science kings" and did not want to kill the
>> goose that gave them their golden eggs.
>>
>> I think this undesirable value system is a political issue that should be
>> addressed--the sooner the better for civilization.  Gay marriage does not
>> hold a candle to the importance of this issue in my mind, yet it seems to
>> get more attention in the press and by politicians--what a travesty.  Again
>> it is consistent with journalist and political values unfortunately.
>>
>> Bob Cook
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> *From:* Jed Rothwell 
>> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 17, 2015 6:58 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts
>>
>> Alain Sepeda  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The problem of cold fusion was incompetence of the particle and plasma
>>> physicist in calorimetry.
>>>
>>> These people were in fact not totally incompetent, just not enough to
>>> understanf Fleischmann and trust calorimetry, but too much to be modest
>>> and not to imagine artifacts from their armchair.
>>>
>>
>> I agree.
>>
>> I think there was plenty of blame to go around: it was not only the fault
>> of the science journalists or the physicists. However, I think a larger
>> share of the blame goes to science journalists and especially the editors
>> of Nature magazine. In an academic dispute you will find scientists lining
>> up on both sides, including incompetent scientists to pontificate about
>> things outside their own expertise. A journal such as Nature or Scientific
>> American should make an effort to present both sides of the dispute. That
>> did not happen with cold fusion.
>>
>> As Mike Melich says, to this day, the US is letting the editors of Nature
>> decide our energy policy.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>

RE: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Chris Zell]

It is sad for me to consider that the freedom to pursue science on your own in 
the US is mostly gone.  Not even adults can purchase chemicals, laboratory 
glassware may be flat out illegal in some areas and having any sort of home lab 
can put you in legal jeopardy.  

It's also stunning to observe the wreckage of US foreign policy, as it leaves 
behind huge problems for its vassals to manage.  After decades of neutrality, 
they nearly have Sweden convinced to join NATO and Japan is giving up legal 
pacifism.  It's disgusting.

RE: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson]

>From Lennart:

 

> Personally I see no reason for the law either against heroin

> (they will abuse it anyhow)

 

This Off Topic conversion is about to get a lot more off topic, and I don't 
care! ;-)

 

I like what you said, Lennart. I generally agree with your premise. 

 

IMO, we should stop outlawing mind altering drugs like Heroin, crack, LSD, 
etc... I would go much further than that and suggest we actually get into the 
business of licensing companies to manufacture these products using safe 
sanitary standards. We should "sell" to those who want it, or need it. As 
horrifying as that may sound to some, the point I'm trying to make is: If we 
really want to end the war on the drug cartels we need to set up carefully 
government regulated business that sell the product at minimal profit in order 
to drive these highly profitable unregulated "illegal" business 
out-of-business. How much federal funding would be saved by getting rid of all 
the surveillance equipment, personnel, and prisons just to grab a few dramatic 
highly publicized headlines of having just grabbed a major kingpin who had been 
on the run for years. Everybody knows that when it comes to the illegal 
importation of drugs into the US, using a sieve would probably be better 
butterfly net than all the drug enforcement equipment and personnel currently 
employed.

 

Unfortunately, law enforcement, itself, has become a huge thriving business. It 
has no interest in stamping out its customer base. Granted, it will 
occasionally parade out a few scape goats every now and grab a few impressive 
headlines. But then it's back to business as usual with its hand out for more 
funding.

 

I realize I would probably end up being assassinated by some right wind 
religious fanatic by saying this by if I was unwillingly forced into a 
government position to end the war on drugs I'd get us into the business of 
licensing it and selling it ourselves in order to undercut the "competition". 
Mandatory on each product would be big fat warning labels that say if you take 
this particular drug for so many times in the following period of time you will 
get addicted. Don't kid yourself. You will get hooked. Therefore, we highly 
recommend you don't take this drug. If you return the drug to us unused and 
unaltered, we will refund your money after we make double sure you didn't find 
a way to dilute the contents in order to sell it to customers yourself at a 
"discount." But if you feel you must take it we would prefer you purchase this 
dangerous drug from us for substantially less than buying if at inflated prices 
down in the alley. Why buy a product from an organization where you wouldn't 
have much recourse to complain if the product doesn't meet standards. Finally, 
when you eventually get addicted (and don't kid yourself, you will get 
addicted) and if you want to kick the habit we have drug rehabilitation 
facilities waiting to get you off the habit. 

 

I would also make sure all the drug profits would be plowed back into drug 
education in order to show, graphically - no holds barred, all the horrible 
things that happen to a drug user who purchases this product after he has 
gotten addicted. The profits would also go to fund drug rehabilitation and 
support facilities & groups for kicking the habit.

 

Granted, I realize this "government" program could itself become "addicted" to 
its own self-preservation. In this world, nothing is perfect. We will simply 
have to watch the program very carefully. But as the old saying goes. Keep your 
friends close to you, but keep your enemies even closer. I can't think of a 
better way of keeping my enemy closer to me than by beating them at their own 
game by undercutting their profit margin.

 

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

OrionWorks.com

zazzle.com/orionworks

 

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

Alain Sepeda  wrote:


> The problem of cold fusion was incompetence of the particle and plasma
> physicist in calorimetry.
>
> These people were in fact not totally incompetent, just not enough to
> understanf Fleischmann and trust calorimetry, but too much to be modest
> and not to imagine artifacts from their armchair.
>

I agree.

I think there was plenty of blame to go around: it was not only the fault
of the science journalists or the physicists. However, I think a larger
share of the blame goes to science journalists and especially the editors
of Nature magazine. In an academic dispute you will find scientists lining
up on both sides, including incompetent scientists to pontificate about
things outside their own expertise. A journal such as Nature or Scientific
American should make an effort to present both sides of the dispute. That
did not happen with cold fusion.

As Mike Melich says, to this day, the US is letting the editors of Nature
decide our energy policy.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

Eric Walker  wrote:


> I don't think it's so simple.  One of these devices is the thing that
> Ahmed Mohamed brought to school, and two of are what a Hollywood villain
> might use to blow up a building:
>

In an ordinary middle school or high school perhaps it would not be so
simple. But this is a technical school with a staff trained in science and
electronics! Any one of them could have glanced at the gadget and seen it
was a clock. Even I can tell, and I am no expert in electronics or
explosives.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Eric Walker]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 6:53 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

But this is a technical school with a staff trained in science and
> electronics! Any one of them could have glanced at the gadget and seen it
> was a clock. Even I can tell, and I am no expert in electronics or
> explosives.
>

It's obviously a clock.  But it looks a lot like a clock designed to look
like a bomb.  I suspect that was intentional.  Mohamed might of thought it
was cool, like something from Mission Impossible.  I definitely would at
his age.

You have a kid that brings something that looks like the beginnings of a
stage prop for Mission Impossible to school.  There's about an 80 percent
chance the kid knew that it looked like a stage prop from Mission
Impossible, despite assurances that it's just a clock.  Make him a white
kid from a family of atheists instead of a brown Muslim kid.  These
questions come up regardless:

   - What's he going to do with the thing?  Is it just a cool prop?
   - Is he going to pull a prank with it?
   - Is it the precursor of something worse?

Coming from Colorado, where we had the Columbine massacre, my feeling is
that you keep an eye on this kind of thing.  The school showed
exceptionally bad judgment in how it handled this situation, and the mayor
of the city set the stage with his Islamophobia.  But Mohamed showed poor
judgment in bringing the thing to school as well.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

Eric Walker  wrote:

It's obviously a clock.  But it looks a lot like a clock designed to look
> like a bomb.
>

Not to me, it doesn't. Where is the explosive? Where is something that
looks even a little like an explosive?



>   I suspect that was intentional.
>

I see no resemblance to a bomb, so I do not see how it could be
intentional. It would obviously not be intentional if I made it.



> You have a kid that brings something that looks like the beginnings of a
> stage prop for Mission Impossible to school.
>

It looks like an electronics project to me. But you are missing a key
point. This is not just any school. It is a specialized engineering school
staff by people who know all about electronics. These are the last people
you could fool into thinking it is a bomb.

You cannot fool experts with a crude fake or a stage prop. On a few of
occasions I have met people who claimed they could speak Japanese, when
they only knew a few phrases. I spoke to them in Japanese. It took me only
a few seconds to establish that they were faking it.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

Bob Cook  wrote:


> It seems to me they had values of capitalists and money grubbers and
> little, if any, scientist and journalist values.
>

I do not think capitalism had much to do with it. This was typical academic
politics. It was a turf war over theory and who gets to define "fusion."
Academic politics tend to be vicious. Rivals often demolish people's
reputations in the press, or try to fire them or have their funding cut
under false pretenses. Read about Rusi Taleyarkhan and bubble fusion, or
what happened to Townes when he invented the laser. When Robert Park vowed
to "root out and fire" anyone in the government who applies for grant to do
cold fusion or even talks about cold fusion, the assembled crowd at the APS
cheered him. In any other industry there would have been a appalled
silence, but in academic science it is normal to go around destroying
people's lives because they disagree with you, or to protect your turf.

In a dispute about programming, such as the Mac versus PC, suppose you
decide the Mac platform is better. You put your money and your development
efforts into the Mac. You do not publish articles in trade magazines
implying that PC developers are engaged in fraud; you don't call them
criminals and lunatics the way Robert Park does; you don't campaign to have
them deported; and you don't promise a crowd at a trade show that you will
"root out and fire" anyone who attends a PC trade show. This sort of thing
only happens in academia.

Money did enter into it in one sense. The people at MIT plasma fusion
program were worried about funding being cut. Plasma fusion has nothing to
do with capitalism. It is a 60-year-old government project, with no
participation at all by capitalists or industry, other than the industrial
companies that manufacture the equipment.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

I wrote:


> This sort of thing only happens in academia.
>

I mean, compared to programming. There are politics, backbiting, betrayal,
dirty tactics and so on everywhere, in every line of work. But some
industries are more prone to these things than others. Show business and
academic science have gutter-level ethics.

I do not know why. Happenstance? Perhaps Woodrow Wilson understood since he
was the president of Princeton U. He said, "academic politics are vicious
precisely because the stakes are so small." He also complained about the
"personal intensity" of academic fights.

Academic scientists themselves have the notion that they are high-minded
and above politics, and that they are especially fair and open-minded to
new ideas. In fact, it is just the opposite. This is not surprising. You
see the same pattern of delusion in other institutions. For example,
samurai ethics in Edo-period Japan emphasized the need for loyalty and
obedience to the clan and the feudal lord (daimyo). They obsessed about
this because samurai were constantly plotting against one another and
trying to undermine or overthrow whoever was in charge. There were
practically no rules. There were no elections or procedures that guaranteed
an orderly transition from one leader to another. It was a free-for-all
every time someone died or was pushed out, similar to what happens in a
Mafia gang when a Godfather dies. If loyalty had actually been commonplace
no one would have noticed it, any more than fish notice water.

Many scientists have described an incident that supposedly took place when
a powerful, middle-aged researcher stood up after presentation and said, "I
have long believed X to be true, but this presentation by our young PhD
colleague has convinced me I am wrong." He was met with a storm of
applause. This is held up as typical noble scientific behavior. In point of
fact, the reason why this is so often quoted and the reason why there was
such applause is because you do not see this happen but once in a lifetime.
In any other line of work, when someone produces an improved product,
everyone in the industry follows whether they like it or not. In recent
years, hundreds of fast food executives must have stood up in meetings and
said, "Chiptole has hot marketing and popular products, so we better follow
their lead." No one applauds these executives or thinks this is
extraordinary. On the contrary, if they did not say that they would be
fired -- and rightfully so.

Peter Hagelstein masterfully described the true nature of modern science
and the contrast to what I would call the Walt Disney version:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Hagelsteinontheoryan.pdf

In "The Origins of Scientific Thought" Giorgio de Santillana described
another reason why institutions sometimes depart from their own ethical
foundations, and yet when they do this they trumpet those same ethics all
the more vociferously:

. . . The failure of imagination explains, among other things, why men
became so reactionary-minded, even when they thought they were entertaining
the most lofty and liberal ideals. Something like that was to occur again
in the American South. When Aristotle, the great master of ethics, said
that slavery is a fact of nature, and that we shall need slaves so long as
the shuttle will not run in the loom by itself, he had registered one of
those great mental blocks which foretell the end of a cycle. And this leads
us to what is obviously crucial, the lack of an applied science [in ancient
Greece].


Pure science is always a hazardous and unfinished affair, stretching out
its structures in perilous balance over the unknown. It does not suit men’s
whims or comfort their fears. In order to be accepted by a tough-minded
society, it must produce unquestionable and stunning results, as happened
with Newton’s laws. Otherwise, it will be told to lay off and not disturb
people’s minds unnecessarily. Men like Galileo, when they dare to speak
openly, will be reproved. It happened at the freest moment of Greek thought
with Anaxagoras; it happened again in a different context with Aristarchus
and his Copernican suggestion. Much has been said of a “loss of nerve” in
Greek speculation after 300 b.c. The expression may not be accurate, but it
circumscribes something that certainly took place: an inflection away from
certain lines of research, a lack of aggressiveness, a kind of settling
down.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lennart Thornros]

I am just flabbergasted. "Making something that LOOKS LIKE A BOMB is a
felony".. I do not say it is not I am just wondering:
1. How to enforce that (if I build one and do not show it to someone who
report me and then destroy the fake bomb and someone reports me after that
am I going to be convicted?)
2. Whom is being protected? (People that do not know how a bomb looks like
are not protected.)
3. Just promote bomb maker to hide their bombs. (I guess it is OK to build
a bomb if it does not look like a bomb (I realize there is another laws
that makes it a felony to activate it .)
I wonder if theaters need a permit to make props that look like bombs?

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 2:47 PM, MJ  wrote:

>
> He could move to Poland. They teach how to make realistic fake bombs
> in electronic magazines:
>
> http://elportal.pl/portfolio-item/219/
>
> MJ
>
>
>
> On 17-Sep-15 18:24, Blaze Spinnaker wrote:
>
>> Any reasonably cautious person would say this thing looks like a hoax
>> bomb:
>> http://www.wired.com/2015/09/heres-bomb-clock-got-ahmed-mohamed-arrested/
>>
>> Making something that LOOKS LIKE A BOMB is a felony.  It's akin to
>> shouting fire in a crowded theatre.  Again, I think the teachers over
>> reacted a little, but I think it fell within a not so completely unexpected
>> range of reasonable reactions.
>>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Blaze Spinnaker]

laugh:
http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-wozniak-in-jail-fake-bomb-2011-10

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 2:24 PM, Blaze Spinnaker 
wrote:

> Any reasonably cautious person would say this thing looks like a hoax
> bomb:
> http://www.wired.com/2015/09/heres-bomb-clock-got-ahmed-mohamed-arrested/
>
>
> Making something that LOOKS LIKE A BOMB is a felony.  It's akin to
> shouting fire in a crowded theatre.  Again, I think the teachers over
> reacted a little, but I think it fell within a not so completely unexpected
> range of reasonable reactions.
>
> The only thing they screwed up on was letting the kid get photographed.
> He's 14.  There's no reason this needed to go on the internet and
> permanently harm him.
>
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Blaze Spinnaker  > wrote:
>
>> I will say one thing - the one thing I think everyone completely missed
>> was that there should not have been a picture of the kid in handcuffs and
>> it should have been handled much more discretely.The over reaction can
>> be excused, but it should have been done very very quietly.   That can not
>> be pardoned and I wish everyone would focus more on that so future
>> educators wouldn't make the same mistake.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Blaze Spinnaker <
>> blazespinna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> lol.   I love the outrage!   Such drama.   However simple reality is no
>>> one, and I mean no one, knows the facts on the ground.   Was it an
>>> overreaction?   Sure, most likely, but perhaps there is more to this than
>>> meets the eye.  Maybe the kid was spouting islamic stuff.
>>>
>>> Remember columbine, people.   Think of all the people who blame the
>>> teachers there for not doing anything.
>>>
>>> How about more support for our educators, here, they are caught in a
>>> very very hard spot - between over reacting and under reacting.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Bob Cook 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I think that the value system of the so called scientists and
 journalists that were involved in the P-F discrediting episode is
 inconsistent with what Jed implies they possessed--in other words scientist
 and journalist values.

 It seems to me they had values of capitalists and money grubbers and
 little, if any, scientist and journalist values.  Their values were to
 cover up nature's real face and spread false ideas.  They were not at
 fault.  They were simply acting in their best interests and according to
 their values. Lies and propaganda were appropriate actions based on their
 values.  And the acceptance of such values has not decreased in the
 corporate world and independent scientific community, but it has increased
 with time IMHO.

 They were vassals of the "science kings" and did not want to kill the
 goose that gave them their golden eggs.

 I think this undesirable value system is a political issue that should
 be addressed--the sooner the better for civilization.  Gay marriage does
 not hold a candle to the importance of this issue in my mind, yet it seems
 to get more attention in the press and by politicians--what a travesty.
 Again it is consistent with journalist and political values unfortunately.

 Bob Cook

 - Original Message -
 *From:* Jed Rothwell 
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
 *Sent:* Thursday, September 17, 2015 6:58 AM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

 Alain Sepeda  wrote:


> The problem of cold fusion was incompetence of the particle and plasma
> physicist in calorimetry.
>
> These people were in fact not totally incompetent, just not enough to
> understanf Fleischmann and trust calorimetry, but too much to be 
> modest
> and not to imagine artifacts from their armchair.
>

 I agree.

 I think there was plenty of blame to go around: it was not only the
 fault of the science journalists or the physicists. However, I think a
 larger share of the blame goes to science journalists and especially the
 editors of Nature magazine. In an academic dispute you will find scientists
 lining up on both sides, including incompetent scientists to pontificate
 about things outside their own expertise. A journal such as Nature or
 Scientific American should make an effort to present both sides of the
 dispute. That did not happen with cold fusion.

 As Mike Melich says, to this day, the US is letting the editors of
 Nature decide our energy policy.

 - Jed


>>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[MJ]

He could move to Poland. They teach how to make realistic fake 
bombs in electronic magazines:


http://elportal.pl/portfolio-item/219/

MJ


On 17-Sep-15 18:24, Blaze Spinnaker wrote:
Any reasonably cautious person would say this thing looks like a hoax 
bomb: 
http://www.wired.com/2015/09/heres-bomb-clock-got-ahmed-mohamed-arrested/


Making something that LOOKS LIKE A BOMB is a felony.  It's akin to 
shouting fire in a crowded theatre.  Again, I think the teachers over 
reacted a little, but I think it fell within a not so completely 
unexpected range of reasonable reactions.

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Blaze Spinnaker]

Any reasonably cautious person would say this thing looks like a hoax bomb:
 http://www.wired.com/2015/09/heres-bomb-clock-got-ahmed-mohamed-arrested/


Making something that LOOKS LIKE A BOMB is a felony.  It's akin to shouting
fire in a crowded theatre.  Again, I think the teachers over reacted a
little, but I think it fell within a not so completely unexpected range of
reasonable reactions.

The only thing they screwed up on was letting the kid get photographed.
He's 14.  There's no reason this needed to go on the internet and
permanently harm him.

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Blaze Spinnaker 
wrote:

> I will say one thing - the one thing I think everyone completely missed
> was that there should not have been a picture of the kid in handcuffs and
> it should have been handled much more discretely.The over reaction can
> be excused, but it should have been done very very quietly.   That can not
> be pardoned and I wish everyone would focus more on that so future
> educators wouldn't make the same mistake.
>
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Blaze Spinnaker  > wrote:
>
>> lol.   I love the outrage!   Such drama.   However simple reality is no
>> one, and I mean no one, knows the facts on the ground.   Was it an
>> overreaction?   Sure, most likely, but perhaps there is more to this than
>> meets the eye.  Maybe the kid was spouting islamic stuff.
>>
>> Remember columbine, people.   Think of all the people who blame the
>> teachers there for not doing anything.
>>
>> How about more support for our educators, here, they are caught in a very
>> very hard spot - between over reacting and under reacting.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Bob Cook 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think that the value system of the so called scientists and
>>> journalists that were involved in the P-F discrediting episode is
>>> inconsistent with what Jed implies they possessed--in other words scientist
>>> and journalist values.
>>>
>>> It seems to me they had values of capitalists and money grubbers and
>>> little, if any, scientist and journalist values.  Their values were to
>>> cover up nature's real face and spread false ideas.  They were not at
>>> fault.  They were simply acting in their best interests and according to
>>> their values. Lies and propaganda were appropriate actions based on their
>>> values.  And the acceptance of such values has not decreased in the
>>> corporate world and independent scientific community, but it has increased
>>> with time IMHO.
>>>
>>> They were vassals of the "science kings" and did not want to kill the
>>> goose that gave them their golden eggs.
>>>
>>> I think this undesirable value system is a political issue that should
>>> be addressed--the sooner the better for civilization.  Gay marriage does
>>> not hold a candle to the importance of this issue in my mind, yet it seems
>>> to get more attention in the press and by politicians--what a travesty.
>>> Again it is consistent with journalist and political values unfortunately.
>>>
>>> Bob Cook
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> *From:* Jed Rothwell 
>>> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 17, 2015 6:58 AM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts
>>>
>>> Alain Sepeda  wrote:
>>>
>>>
 The problem of cold fusion was incompetence of the particle and plasma
 physicist in calorimetry.

 These people were in fact not totally incompetent, just not enough to
 understanf Fleischmann and trust calorimetry, but too much to be modest
 and not to imagine artifacts from their armchair.

>>>
>>> I agree.
>>>
>>> I think there was plenty of blame to go around: it was not only the
>>> fault of the science journalists or the physicists. However, I think a
>>> larger share of the blame goes to science journalists and especially the
>>> editors of Nature magazine. In an academic dispute you will find scientists
>>> lining up on both sides, including incompetent scientists to pontificate
>>> about things outside their own expertise. A journal such as Nature or
>>> Scientific American should make an effort to present both sides of the
>>> dispute. That did not happen with cold fusion.
>>>
>>> As Mike Melich says, to this day, the US is letting the editors of
>>> Nature decide our energy policy.
>>>
>>> - Jed
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

Lennart Thornros  wrote:

I am just flabbergasted. "Making something that LOOKS LIKE A BOMB is a
> felony".. I do not say it is not I am just wondering:
> 1. How to enforce that (if I build one and do not show it to someone who
> report me and then destroy the fake bomb and someone reports me after that
> am I going to be convicted?)
>

Hey! The police explained this. Here is what they said:

We have no information that he claimed it was a bomb.He kept maintaining it
was a clock, but there was no broader explanation … It could reasonably be
mistaken as a device if left in a bathroom or under a car. The concern was,
what was this thing built for? Do we take him into custody?


They had no information, but if he put it under a car, someone might think
it is a bomb. Plus, as Arthur Clarke showed, if he put it on the moon,
someone might think it is proof that an advanced civilization visited.

So it all a matter of context, you see. In this case, imaginary context,
because he did not actually put it under a car or in a bathroom. But the
police office imagined him doing that, so that's proof he is guilty.

He is still suspended from school, by the way. Still guilty in the eyes of
the School Officials, if not the Law.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lennart Thornros]

argument

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 9:34 PM, Lennart Thornros 
wrote:

> That is anything but a reply to what I said. I do not disagree with you in
> what happens. It just solidify my argumanet.
>
> Best Regards ,
> Lennart Thornros
>
> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
> lenn...@thornros.com
> +1 916 436 1899
> 202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648
>
> “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM
>
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 7:31 PM, Jed Rothwell 
> wrote:
>
>> Lennart Thornros  wrote:
>>
>> I am just flabbergasted. "Making something that LOOKS LIKE A BOMB is a
>>> felony".. I do not say it is not I am just wondering:
>>> 1. How to enforce that (if I build one and do not show it to someone who
>>> report me and then destroy the fake bomb and someone reports me after that
>>> am I going to be convicted?)
>>>
>>
>> Hey! The police explained this. Here is what they said:
>>
>> We have no information that he claimed it was a bomb.He kept maintaining
>> it was a clock, but there was no broader explanation … It could reasonably
>> be mistaken as a device if left in a bathroom or under a car. The concern
>> was, what was this thing built for? Do we take him into custody?
>>
>>
>> They had no information, but if he put it under a car, someone might
>> think it is a bomb. Plus, as Arthur Clarke showed, if he put it on the
>> moon, someone might think it is proof that an advanced civilization visited.
>>
>> So it all a matter of context, you see. In this case, imaginary context,
>> because he did not actually put it under a car or in a bathroom. But the
>> police office imagined him doing that, so that's proof he is guilty.
>>
>> He is still suspended from school, by the way. Still guilty in the eyes
>> of the School Officials, if not the Law.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lennart Thornros]

Jed,
Read what you just wrote,
This is those authorities, you think we should respect, in action.
Where I grow up there was no laws that we should be inoculated.
I think you are confusing technical expertise and authorities.
There is no problem with technical expertise. However, when you bring in
the principal it all becomes law and order and there is always a law
nowadays. . . .
I am glad we have the same opinion. Now just get the names right.

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> The Ahmed Mohamed case has swept the Internet. I hope the kid gets a
> normal life back. Anyway, I would like to point out something about this
> that clicked in my mind regarding cold fusion.
>
> This is a technical high school, specializing in engineering. The first
> teacher he showed it to saw it was a clock. I expect there are dozens of
> other teachers there who would instantly recognize it is a clock. So, when
> suspicion arose, and the kid and his clock were sent the principal's
> office, the principal should have called in one of the engineering teachers
> and asked "what is this?" The misunderstanding would have been cleared up
> instantly. Instead, the principal called the police. As you see from the
> news accounts the police knew nothing about electronics or bombs.
>
> Decades ago, when a technical questions arose, technical experts were
> called in, and the public accepted their judgement. There were laws that
> all children have to be inoculated against infectious disease. No one
> questioned these laws. An "anti-vaxer" movement in the 1950s, when the
> polio vaccine had just been developed, would have been unthinkable. All
> adults back then understood how dangerous polio is.
>
> Perhaps respect for authority and for expertise was too high back then.
> There were cases of that. But I think the pendulum has swung too far the
> other way. The tragedy of cold fusion is not that experts were wrong, but
> rather that experts were ignored. Decision makers ignored the scientific
> literature and did not listen to experts who had actually performed
> experiments. They turned instead to science journalists, then to ordinary
> journalists, to scientists who had no knowledge of the subject and who had
> read nothing, and finally, to anonymous people at Wikipedia who name
> themselves after comic book characters.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> The story includes one of the most stupid quotes from a police department
> spokesperson I have ever read:
>
> “We have no information that he claimed it was a bomb,” McLellan said. “He
> kept maintaining it was a clock, but there was no broader explanation.”
>
>
> Asked what broader explanation the boy could have given, the spokesman
> explained:
>
>
> “It could reasonably be mistaken as a device if left in a bathroom or
> under a car. The concern was, what was this thing built for? Do we take him
> into custody?”
>
>
> Broad?!? Call it broad or narrow, *the gadget was a clock*, and that was
> the one and only explanation, for crying out loud.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

Lennart Thornros  wrote:

Where I grow up there was no laws that we should be inoculated.
>

I do not know where you grew up, but in the U.S. the first law mandating
vaccinations was passed in 1855, and vaccinations become mandatory for
public school attendance in 1922. Education was compulsory; home schooling
was not allowed, and most people went to public schools, so this was
tantamount to mandating vaccinations.

http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/government-regulation

After the improved Sabin oral polio vaccine was licensed in 1962, the
government told everyone to get one. All adults and children lined up at
designated schools and other institutions and took it. No questions asked.
In my opinion no questions should have been asked; this was the right thing
to do.

(What I distinctly remember about this was that we reached the head of the
line, they gave me a sugar cube and I thought, "What, no shot? That's a
relief!")

Some people nowadays do not even inoculate against tetanus, which is as
prevalent now as it ever was, because it does not need a human host. This
is playing with fire. If a baby or child gets a severe case of this disease
it will horrible. I think parents should be forced to inoculate, except
when there is a valid medical reason not to. I don't care about the
parents' rights; I care about the children's rights.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson]

Lennart,

 

I realize English is not your native language. I try my best to afford you 
generous leeway when I can't parse your English grammar. After all, I don't 
know your native language. That said, I must confess that in this circumstance 
I don't quite understand what the point was that you were trying to make.

 

Here's my point. If the high school boy who brought in his science project had 
not looked like a Muslim, this regrettable chain of unfortunate events never 
would have become news. Authority based on suspicion and fear took over and 
never asked for technical help. For crying out loud, the student brought his 
home made digital clock to school to show his classmates and teachers what he 
had built with his own brain and hands. As far as we can tell he never behaved 
in a secretive way when he brought his home project to school. Would a 
terrorist have revealed to his teacher what he had built? [Glad you liked it, 
sir. Excuse me now while I go take it somewhere secretive where I can arm it.] 
I would have hoped that those in authority would have recognized the simple 
behavior of bringing a project to school to impress a teacher. Unfortunately, 
authority overwhelmed with prejudice took over. Technical help never had a 
chance to weigh in. What a friggin fiasco.

 

I'm glad he gets to show his science project off at the White House. You can 
bet Ahmed's  visit will make news. 

 

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

OrionWorks.com

zazzle.com/orionworks

 

 

From: Lennart Thornros [mailto:lenn...@thornros.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 8:21 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

 

Jed,

Read what you just wrote,

This is those authorities, you think we should respect, in action.

Where I grow up there was no laws that we should be inoculated.

I think you are confusing technical expertise and authorities.

There is no problem with technical expertise. However, when you bring in the 
principal it all becomes law and order and there is always a law nowadays. . . .

I am glad we have the same opinion. Now just get the names right.




Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

 

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com   

lenn...@thornros.com  
+1 916 436 1899

202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648

 

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to 
excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

 

On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Jed Rothwell  > wrote:

The Ahmed Mohamed case has swept the Internet. I hope the kid gets a normal 
life back. Anyway, I would like to point out something about this that clicked 
in my mind regarding cold fusion.

This is a technical high school, specializing in engineering. The first teacher 
he showed it to saw it was a clock. I expect there are dozens of other teachers 
there who would instantly recognize it is a clock. So, when suspicion arose, 
and the kid and his clock were sent the principal's office, the principal 
should have called in one of the engineering teachers and asked "what is this?" 
The misunderstanding would have been cleared up instantly. Instead, the 
principal called the police. As you see from the news accounts the police knew 
nothing about electronics or bombs.

 

Decades ago, when a technical questions arose, technical experts were called 
in, and the public accepted their judgement. There were laws that all children 
have to be inoculated against infectious disease. No one questioned these laws. 
An "anti-vaxer" movement in the 1950s, when the polio vaccine had just been 
developed, would have been unthinkable. All adults back then understood how 
dangerous polio is.

 

Perhaps respect for authority and for expertise was too high back then. There 
were cases of that. But I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way. 
The tragedy of cold fusion is not that experts were wrong, but rather that 
experts were ignored. Decision makers ignored the scientific literature and did 
not listen to experts who had actually performed experiments. They turned 
instead to science journalists, then to ordinary journalists, to scientists who 
had no knowledge of the subject and who had read nothing, and finally, to 
anonymous people at Wikipedia who name themselves after comic book characters.

 

- - - - - - - - - - -


The story includes one of the most stupid quotes from a police department 
spokesperson I have ever read:

“We have no information that he claimed it was a bomb,” McLellan said. “He kept 
maintaining it was a clock, but there was no broader explanation.”

 

Asked what broader explanation the boy could have given, the spokesman 
explained:

 

“It could reasonably be mistaken as a device if left in a bathroom or under a 
car. The concern was, what was this thing built for? Do we take him into 
custody?”

[Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

The Ahmed Mohamed case has swept the Internet. I hope the kid gets a normal
life back. Anyway, I would like to point out something about this that
clicked in my mind regarding cold fusion.

This is a technical high school, specializing in engineering. The first
teacher he showed it to saw it was a clock. I expect there are dozens of
other teachers there who would instantly recognize it is a clock. So, when
suspicion arose, and the kid and his clock were sent the principal's
office, the principal should have called in one of the engineering teachers
and asked "what is this?" The misunderstanding would have been cleared up
instantly. Instead, the principal called the police. As you see from the
news accounts the police knew nothing about electronics or bombs.

Decades ago, when a technical questions arose, technical experts were
called in, and the public accepted their judgement. There were laws that
all children have to be inoculated against infectious disease. No one
questioned these laws. An "anti-vaxer" movement in the 1950s, when the
polio vaccine had just been developed, would have been unthinkable. All
adults back then understood how dangerous polio is.

Perhaps respect for authority and for expertise was too high back then.
There were cases of that. But I think the pendulum has swung too far the
other way. The tragedy of cold fusion is not that experts were wrong, but
rather that experts were ignored. Decision makers ignored the scientific
literature and did not listen to experts who had actually performed
experiments. They turned instead to science journalists, then to ordinary
journalists, to scientists who had no knowledge of the subject and who had
read nothing, and finally, to anonymous people at Wikipedia who name
themselves after comic book characters.

- - - - - - - - - - -

The story includes one of the most stupid quotes from a police department
spokesperson I have ever read:

“We have no information that he claimed it was a bomb,” McLellan said. “He
kept maintaining it was a clock, but there was no broader explanation.”


Asked what broader explanation the boy could have given, the spokesman
explained:


“It could reasonably be mistaken as a device if left in a bathroom or under
a car. The concern was, what was this thing built for? Do we take him into
custody?”


Broad?!? Call it broad or narrow, *the gadget was a clock*, and that was
the one and only explanation, for crying out loud.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lennart Thornros]

Thank you steven. I do need some support and perhaps I should take some
extra time to  check the message.

I tried to be sarcastic. I  agree with what you say/
I disagree with that this is because we have too few laws.
On the contrary - because the many laws and the many add ons to cover
specific situation we are in such an impossible situation.
We cannot read the laws - they are written in a way that they are hard to
understand. Contrary to me trying to clarify my my poor language skills -
theer is nobody to ask for clarification.
In addition when a law is abused (they all are) then the lawmakers design a
new law that cover this loop hole. Unfortunately this cover often hit other
situation it was not intended to hit.
Now we have a bunch of lawyers and they like it because they can argue
about what it meant and what it says verbatim and the money flies in to
their coffer.
The more people we we hire and the more hierarchy we implement - the more
laws we have to have. I am sure all of us break the law every day.
Sometimes fully aware and sometimes with no clue that we broke the law.
Laws does not solve any problems. The more detailed they are the harder to
implement / enforce.
I am not making any statements following any official party. The political
parties I know about are as useless all of them. Donald Trump and Hilary
Clinton do I need to say more.

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 6:57 PM, Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson <
orionwo...@charter.net> wrote:

> Lennart,
>
>
>
> I realize English is not your native language. I try my best to afford you
> generous leeway when I can't parse your English grammar. After all, I don't
> know your native language. That said, I must confess that in this
> circumstance I don't quite understand what the point was that you were
> trying to make.
>
>
>
> Here's my point. If the high school boy who brought in his science project
> had not looked like a Muslim, this regrettable chain of unfortunate events
> never would have become news. Authority based on suspicion and fear took
> over and never asked for technical help. For crying out loud, the student
> brought his home made digital clock to school to show his classmates and
> teachers what he had built with his own brain and hands. As far as we can
> tell he never behaved in a secretive way when he brought his home project
> to school. Would a terrorist have revealed to his teacher what he had
> built? [Glad you liked it, sir. Excuse me now while I go take it somewhere
> secretive where I can arm it.] I would have hoped that those in authority
> would have recognized the simple behavior of bringing a project to school
> to impress a teacher. Unfortunately, authority overwhelmed with prejudice
> took over. Technical help never had a chance to weigh in. What a friggin
> fiasco.
>
>
>
> I'm glad he gets to show his science project off at the White House. You
> can bet Ahmed's  visit will make news.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Steven Vincent Johnson
>
> OrionWorks.com
>
> zazzle.com/orionworks
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lennart Thornros [mailto:lenn...@thornros.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 16, 2015 8:21 PM
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts
>
>
>
> Jed,
>
> Read what you just wrote,
>
> This is those authorities, you think we should respect, in action.
>
> Where I grow up there was no laws that we should be inoculated.
>
> I think you are confusing technical expertise and authorities.
>
> There is no problem with technical expertise. However, when you bring in
> the principal it all becomes law and order and there is always a law
> nowadays. . . .
>
> I am glad we have the same opinion. Now just get the names right.
>
>
> Best Regards ,
> Lennart Thornros
>
>
>
> www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
>
> lenn...@thornros.com
> +1 916 436 1899
>
> 202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648
>
>
>
> “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
> commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Jed Rothwell 
> wrote:
>
> The Ahmed Mohamed case has swept the Internet. I hope the kid gets a
> normal life back. Anyway, I would like to point out something about this
> that clicked in my mind regarding cold fusion.
>
> This is a technical high school, specializing in engineering. The first
> teacher he showed it to saw it was a clock. I expect there are dozens of
> other teachers there who would instantly recognize it is a clock. So, when
> suspicion arose, and the kid and his clock were sent the principal's
> office, the principal should have called in one of the engineering teachers
> and asked "what is 

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Lennart Thornros]

Hello Jed,
In Sweden, where I grow up in the 50-is (not the 1850-is).
It was less laws and more freedom I guess.
However, this is not about polio vaccine.
your arguments can be had about heroine also - just the other way around.
Laws does not make the difference, Just punish people breaking the law for
other reasons than the initial thought was.
The real lawbreakers they do not get impacted by the laws. They do not
benefit either.
Personally I see no reason for the law either against heroin (they will
abuse it anyhow) or for the vaccine (you do not believe in it - it will not
work - just cause disharmony).
I liked your example and you avoided that. Good example of how we are ruled
by incompetent bureaucrats.

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 6:50 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Lennart Thornros  wrote:
>
> Where I grow up there was no laws that we should be inoculated.
>>
>
> I do not know where you grew up, but in the U.S. the first law mandating
> vaccinations was passed in 1855, and vaccinations become mandatory for
> public school attendance in 1922. Education was compulsory; home schooling
> was not allowed, and most people went to public schools, so this was
> tantamount to mandating vaccinations.
>
> http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/government-regulation
>
> After the improved Sabin oral polio vaccine was licensed in 1962, the
> government told everyone to get one. All adults and children lined up at
> designated schools and other institutions and took it. No questions asked.
> In my opinion no questions should have been asked; this was the right thing
> to do.
>
> (What I distinctly remember about this was that we reached the head of the
> line, they gave me a sugar cube and I thought, "What, no shot? That's a
> relief!")
>
> Some people nowadays do not even inoculate against tetanus, which is as
> prevalent now as it ever was, because it does not need a human host. This
> is playing with fire. If a baby or child gets a severe case of this disease
> it will horrible. I think parents should be forced to inoculate, except
> when there is a valid medical reason not to. I don't care about the
> parents' rights; I care about the children's rights.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Eric Walker]

On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 7:59 PM, a.ashfield  wrote:


> I would place the primary blame on the school.  A technical school and no
> one there can tell the difference between a clock and a bomb?  Really?
>

I don't think it's so simple.  One of these devices is the thing that Ahmed
Mohamed brought to school, and two of are what a Hollywood villain might
use to blow up a building:

http://cdn.instructables.com/FC1/ZLW8/GLL4ZND0/FC1ZLW8GLL4ZND0.LARGE.jpg
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/Ahmed-Clock-Irving-PD-575x429.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-z7g0BU8Xilc/Uza3aGsmkNI/K3w/pdJ7oqunZ-k/s1600/defusable+clock+bioweapon+bomb+prop.jpg

The teacher that saw Mohamed's clock thought that he should avoid showing
it to other people; I assume that is because he or she grasped the
potential for a scare.  Also, when I was Mohamed's age, there is a 100
percent chance that I would have thought that it would be cool to have a
clock that looks kind of like a bomb, in a kind of ornery way.

Even without the benefit of hindsight, was it likely that Mohamed had
brought a bomb to school?  No.  But there was an outside possibility, and
there are a lot of kids at a school.  A risk-based assessment immediately
indicates that you will want to take a lot of care in the matter.  Was it
necessary to arrest Mohamed given what people were able to glean from
looking at the thing?  Hard to say, but I'm guessing probably not.

I feel the case is partially an unfortunate confluence of circumstances and
partially a result of poor judgment and communication on the part of
faculty.  But that does not mean that they did not have a situation on
their hands to sort out, given what information they had.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[a.ashfield]

Jed,
I would place the primary blame on the school.  A technical school and 
no one there can tell the difference between a clock and a bomb?  Really?
All the teachers involved must really dumb if they couldn't tell there 
was no explosive present, even the non technical ones.


I disagree that the journalists are the problem.  I have first hand 
knowledge of DOE and other government organizations and it was the PhD 
physicists who were the most ignorant and dogmatic when it came to AGW 
and LENR.  The journalists know they don't know and ask an "expert."


It seems to me the upcoming generation lacks technical common sense - 
something  I also blame the educational system and culture for.
Doing what authority wants without question is dangerous too.   You 
never know what idiotic scheme they might come up with.  It might be 
lets start another stupid war in the Middle East this time and you must 
serve.   Forget about the US deposing Iran's Prime Minister and 
inserting a dictator, or Iraq or Libya.  The current refugee disaster is 
almost entirely America's fault.  I have no reason to trust authority 
anymore.

I've just listened to most of the GOP presidential debate.  God help us.

Re: [Vo]:The Ahmed Mohamed case and distrust of experts

[Jed Rothwell]

a.ashfield  wrote:

>
> I would place the primary blame on the school.


Me too, but I think it was an administrator.



>   A technical school and no one there can tell the difference between a
> clock and a bomb?  Really?
>

Reports say that at least one teacher saw it said it was interesting, and
left it at that. Evidently the principal and the police did not call in an
engineering teacher. I doubt that first teacher or the others were aware of
what was going on. Why wouldn't they have stopped it?



> It seems to me the upcoming generation lacks technical common sense -
> something  I also blame the educational system and culture for.
>

Plus technology itself is to blame. In the 1960s, ordinary machines such as
clocks and Volkswagen distributors were easy to understand. You could see
the mechanical parts, and see how they worked together. Nowadays everything
is a computerized black box. It works better, but it teaches less.

- Jed