Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
Vortex is a great list.. but I think it has outgrown the email list format. I propose moving the list to a modern web forum based product. Modern forums allow embedded HTML/multimedia, moderation, yellow-card/red-card infractions, personal messaging, email protection, full searching, plus all the other features of web over email. talk-polywell.org has a decent forum, but LENR is still marginalized and off-topic. I would be happy to host vortex in any format on my site (ecatplanet.net) and would also be willing to transfer ownership or the domain name to something owned by the vort collective.. There are a number of fascinating writers out there who's work doesn't have a forum for ongoing discussion. (Frank, Axil, Horrace, to name a few.) Web based forums can have unlimited categories that are easily searched for a particular author or subject. This may be inviting too much off-topic discussion, but I've been thinking about this for a while.. - Brad
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
+1 I would live to see this list migrate to a forum for reasons already mentioned by Brad
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
I'm a newcomer but my two cents is that it's fine as is and serves an entirely different purpose than a forum. Its form is suitable for its purpose.
RE: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
OK, I ante'd up, so the rest of you out there need to help support this forum... RE: On the topic that Horace brings up re: moving all non-technical postings to the other vortex list... I couldn't agree more... I've posted several times in the past month or two to get voluntary action to limit repetitive opinions, in an attempt to increase the signal-to-noise. I would have expected to get better compliance from adults, but perhaps I was mistaken... This group was NOT formed as a general discussion group As Horace stated, there are way too many postings, which means people who have a life and other responsibilities and obligations can't hope to keep up. As a result, GOOD technical discussion is hampered, and there's a high probability that important exchanges are not taking place because one feels overwhelmed at the sheer volume of unread posts, and thus, begins to skip some due to lack of time to read them. The worst contributors know who they are... please make a conscious effort to INCREASE the SNR. Very SHORT postings about interesting (non-technical) happenings are ok, but if you can't say it in one or two sentences, then put in on vortex-B. Happy Holidays to All, -Mark --- You sent a payment Transaction ID: 3HH21245VN7788700 Dear Mark Iverson, You sent a payment for $20.00 USD to William Beaty. Please note that it may take a little while for this payment to appear in the Recent Activity list on your Account Overview. View the details of this transaction online --- Instructions on how to subscribe. I couldn't find instructions on how to subscribe to the 'B' list, but it's probably the same as vortex-l except there's a 'b' after vortex: i.e., vortexb-l-requ...@eskimo.com Vortex-L subscription instructions: To subscribe, send a *blank* message to: vortex-l-requ...@eskimo.com Put the single word subscribe in the subject line of the header. No quotes around subscribe, of course. You will get an automatic greeting message in response. Once subscribed, send your email to vortex-L@eskimo.com. To unsubscribe, send a *blank* message to: vortex-l-requ...@eskimo.com Put the single word unsubscribe in the subject line of the header. No quotes around unsubscribe, of course.
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
The mailing list format is fine. I'm completely opposed to web-based forums for discussing sensitive topics. With an e-mail based discussion list, each participant keeps a copy of the discussions. A web-based forum can be taken down very easily. Web-based forums are subject to hacking and manipulation. I have personally witnessed this. Web-based forums require more hardware, more software, more administration and more bandwidth. They are easier to monitor. They are easier to censor. Web-based forums quickly become small oligarchies where cabals impose their dictatorship. Also, web-based forums can inject malware, and web sites can be blocked. Lots of people may be reading Vortex e-mails from work; if Vortex moves to a web-based forum, some of them may no longer be able to participate due to IT policies in effect at their workplaces. -- Berke Durak
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
Regarding the matter of: RE: On the topic that Horace brings up re: moving all non-technical postings to the other vortex list... I presume this is in reference to vortex-b. Unfortunately, vortex-b is set up as a no-holds bar forum where anything goes. Long ago I stopped subscribing to b because what goes on there disgusts me. Anybody can join b and not fear being removed simply because there are no rules. It's turned into a place where people argue for the sake of arguing. It's a dumping ground which allows trolls to continue to feed on their habit of attacking others. IMO, It would be a disgrace to place useful informative off topic issues on b. That's why conscientious members on this list tend to place the prefix OT in front of the subject line - let people know this post is off topic but that it might be of interest to many anyway Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
Also, mobile accessibility of web-based forums is poor. Like all complex web applications, they won't work uniformly well accross different browsers, esp. embedded ones. And e-mail has mechanisms for authentication. You can sign your messages with your private key using GPG, the signature will be distributed to the members of the mailing list along with your message without interfering with normal operation. You can't do this with a web-based forum. Using e-mail, you can also privately mesage members of the list without the administrator of the mailing list knowing it. With a web-based forum, the mail address of members generally remains hidden, and users have to go through the private message system of the forum, allowing the admins or hackers to spy on, disrupt or modify private messages exchanged between users. For a mailing list where topics as sensitive as cold fusion are discussed, this is totally inappropriate. -- Berke Durak
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
I suggest that a blog be created by whomever wants to, to discuss things related to Rossi. Personally, I like email format, and the fact vortex-l has over 15 years of archives. I prefer to post here. On Dec 19, 2011, at 8:38 AM, ecat builder wrote: Vortex is a great list.. but I think it has outgrown the email list format. I propose moving the list to a modern web forum based product. Modern forums allow embedded HTML/multimedia, moderation, yellow-card/red-card infractions, personal messaging, email protection, full searching, plus all the other features of web over email. talk-polywell.org has a decent forum, but LENR is still marginalized and off-topic. I would be happy to host vortex in any format on my site (ecatplanet.net) and would also be willing to transfer ownership or the domain name to something owned by the vort collective.. There are a number of fascinating writers out there who's work doesn't have a forum for ongoing discussion. (Frank, Axil, Horrace, to name a few.) Web based forums can have unlimited categories that are easily searched for a particular author or subject. This may be inviting too much off-topic discussion, but I've been thinking about this for a while.. - Brad Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
I presume this is in reference to vortex-b. Unfortunately, vortex-b is set up as a no-holds bar forum where anything goes. Long ago I stopped subscribing to b because what goes on there disgusts me. Anybody can join b and not fear being removed simply because there are no rules. It's turned into a place where people argue for the sake of arguing. It's a dumping ground which allows trolls to continue to feed on their habit of attacking others. IMO, It would be a disgrace to place useful informative off topic issues on b. Your 'b' must be different from the one I subscribe to. I haven't seen a post there in months, aside from the test I just did. I don't know if the topic should be moved there, but the place is not a sleazy barroom, it's more like an abandoned village meeting hall.
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
From Bek: Your 'b' must be different from the one I subscribe to. No, it's the same one. I haven't seen a post there in months, aside from the test I just did. Yes, and why do you suppose that is so? It's called the scorched earth syndrome. Things got so bad that most, myself included, simply subscribed out of b. I suspect the trolls are still however. They are still subscribed to b, abiding their time, waiting to pounce. Particularly the infamous Grok persona. It's possible that you are fairly recent vortex member. It's possible you do not recall some of his acrid contributions of grok, before Mr. Beaty kicked him out of the regular vortex group after insulting Storms, among other transgressions. IMO, b still radioactive, and is likely to remain radioactive for a long time to come. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
For what it's worth I prefer Vortex as it is and has been. Ron --On Monday, December 19, 2011 9:38 AM -0800 ecat builder ecatbuil...@gmail.com wrote: Vortex is a great list.. but I think it has outgrown the email list format. I propose moving the list to a modern web forum based product. Modern forums allow embedded HTML/multimedia, moderation, yellow-card/red-card infractions, personal messaging, email protection, full searching, plus all the other features of web over email. talk-polywell.org has a decent forum, but LENR is still marginalized and off-topic. I would be happy to host vortex in any format on my site (ecatplanet.net) and would also be willing to transfer ownership or the domain name to something owned by the vort collective.. There are a number of fascinating writers out there who's work doesn't have a forum for ongoing discussion. (Frank, Axil, Horrace, to name a few.) Web based forums can have unlimited categories that are easily searched for a particular author or subject. This may be inviting too much off-topic discussion, but I've been thinking about this for a while.. - Brad
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
It's called the scorched earth syndrome. Things got so bad that most, myself included, simply subscribed out of b. I suspect the trolls are still however. They are still subscribed to b, abiding their time, waiting to pounce. If everybody feels that way, 'b' will never be used. It could at least be tried out if anybody thinks his posts are more appropriate there than here. And if the trolls want to make trouble, they can do it here as well as there. Bill Beatty can ban them from there as well as from here.
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
Particularly the infamous Grok persona. He's there still. He calls it Vortex purgatory. T
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
From Bek: It's called the scorched earth syndrome. Things got so bad that most, myself included, simply subscribed out of b. I suspect the trolls are still however. They are still subscribed to b, abiding their time, waiting to pounce. If everybody feels that way, 'b' will never be used. It could at least be tried out if anybody thinks his posts are more appropriate there than here. And if the trolls want to make trouble, they can do it here as well as there. Bill Beatty can ban them from there as well as from here. To be honest, I don't know how others feel about vortex-b. I'm giving you my personal assessment and experience of what happened to b. As such, I have no desire to participate there. Others may disagree with my opinion on the matter. It is, however, incorrect to say that trolls would be kicked out of B, just as they have been kicked out of vortex proper. That does not appear to be the purpose of B. B is a no-holds bar discussion (argument for the sake of argument) group. As Mr. Beaty has felt inclined to kick trolls out of vortex proper (most likely due to bad behavior), they are allowed to say and do whatever they want to do over at B. IOW, the same rules don't apply over at B. At least that has been my assessment of the purpose of B. However, Mr. Beaty may disagree. Bill has the final say on the matter. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
Horace we are discussing a technology and a device which may totally alter the future pathway of the human race, how this technology has been suppressed and is still being attempted to be suppressed on this forum by those that make silly claims like there are no working LENR devices in any laboratory anywhere and there are no peer reviewed LENR papers despite considerable peer reviewed papers and clear statements by NASA, SPAWAR and other researchers to the contrary. I would suggest this would be expected to increase the volume of posts. How are the donations made? On 12/19/2011 9:58 AM, Horace Heffner wrote: First, let me say we should all keep in mind at year end contributing the suggested $10 donation for vortex-l operation. The main purpose of this post is to bring up the issue of possibly routing all non-technical material relating to the Rossi E-cat to vortex-B. The technical content of this list has been highly diluted, and the posting rate greatly expanded. Many of the posts are now more appropriate for tweeting than for posting on a scientific discussion list. The Rossi fraud-no-fraud issue is a dead horse that has been beaten to death, worse than beaten, pulverized. The discussion has degenerated to name calling and comparisons to antifeminism and racism. We have to remember the reason this list was created in the first place: http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html A few years ago the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup was increasingly becoming a battleground for the two types. Those who reasoned that we must study cold fusion because there is some evidence that it is real were constantly attacked by those who believe we must reject cold fusion because there is little evidence for it. And vice versa. Particularly shameful was the amount of hostility including sneering ridicule, emotional arguments, arrogant self-blindness, and great use of the low, unscientific techniques outlined in ZEN AND THE ART OF DEBUNKERY. (See http://amasci.com/weird/wclose.html) Rule 2 is found here: http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html#rules 2. NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. Pathological Skepticism is banned (see the link.) The tone here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! The problem is what is reasonable to discuss on this list It is rather like: what is pornography? You know it when you see it. Personally I think the following are OK, even if about Rossi, if discussed in a respectful and scientific fashion: 1. News developments (after all this is a news list), including news reports, new papers, announcements, etc. 2. Experiment reports 3. Theory and theory papers 4. Related history of the field The problem is much discussion of Rossi has become repetitive, devoid of technical content, and virulent. The problem is throwing out the bath water and not the baby. What is needed is common sense and self restraint. Given that is missing to a large extent at the moment, some remedy is needed. We are losing members and/or meaningful member participation. The posting volume is too high to keep up, at least for me. I only read about half of what is posted, if that. I think something should be done. Anyone else feel the same? Suggestions or comments are requested. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
Well worded and couldn't agree more. On Dec 18, 2011 6:29 PM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: First, let me say we should all keep in mind at year end contributing the suggested $10 donation for vortex-l operation. The main purpose of this post is to bring up the issue of possibly routing all non-technical material relating to the Rossi E-cat to vortex-B. The technical content of this list has been highly diluted, and the posting rate greatly expanded. Many of the posts are now more appropriate for tweeting than for posting on a scientific discussion list. The Rossi fraud-no-fraud issue is a dead horse that has been beaten to death, worse than beaten, pulverized. The discussion has degenerated to name calling and comparisons to antifeminism and racism. We have to remember the reason this list was created in the first place: http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.**html http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html A few years ago the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup was increasingly becoming a battleground for the two types. Those who reasoned that we must study cold fusion because there is some evidence that it is real were constantly attacked by those who believe we must reject cold fusion because there is little evidence for it. And vice versa. Particularly shameful was the amount of hostility including sneering ridicule, emotional arguments, arrogant self-blindness, and great use of the low, unscientific techniques outlined in ZEN AND THE ART OF DEBUNKERY. (See http://amasci.com/weird/**wclose.htmlhttp://amasci.com/weird/wclose.html ) Rule 2 is found here: http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/**weird/wvort.html#ruleshttp://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html#rules 2. NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. Pathological Skepticism is banned (see the link.) The tone here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! The problem is what is reasonable to discuss on this list It is rather like: what is pornography? You know it when you see it. Personally I think the following are OK, even if about Rossi, if discussed in a respectful and scientific fashion: 1. News developments (after all this is a news list), including news reports, new papers, announcements, etc. 2. Experiment reports 3. Theory and theory papers 4. Related history of the field The problem is much discussion of Rossi has become repetitive, devoid of technical content, and virulent. The problem is throwing out the bath water and not the baby. What is needed is common sense and self restraint. Given that is missing to a large extent at the moment, some remedy is needed. We are losing members and/or meaningful member participation. The posting volume is too high to keep up, at least for me. I only read about half of what is posted, if that. I think something should be done. Anyone else feel the same? Suggestions or comments are requested. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~**hheffner/http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:44 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: [snip] How are the donations made? http://amasci.com/weird/wvort.html Being an old fogey I snail mail mine to: William J. Beaty 6632 Corson Ave S Seattle, WA 98108 206-543-6195 USA I think there is a way using Paypal, but I don't know what it is. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
I think there is a way using Paypal, but I don't know what it is. For the oversears of us would be nice to have it... mic
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
Hey,Bill, Do you have a Paypal account? It's time for Vorts to ante up. T On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: I think there is a way using Paypal, but I don't know what it is. For the oversears of us would be nice to have it... mic
Re: [Vo]:CALL FOR REDIRECT OF SOME TOPICS OR DISCUSSIONS TO VORTEX-B
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011, Terry Blanton wrote: Hey,Bill, Do you have a Paypal account? It's time for Vorts to ante up. Yep, on paypal it's just my normal email: billb()amasci dotcom (figure out obfuscation) Recent news: Me being insulted by William Shatner on ca-only History channel show Nov 2011 :) William Shatner's Weird or What: Medical Mysteries: SLI Electric humans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neYxvtqH8QMt=0m13s Human lungs as VandeGraaff generators: an electricity disease? http://amasci.com/static/e-disease.html But Shatner did get it half-right. You're supposed to blow your breath towards a foil-leaf electrometer, or the $2 FET electrometer at http://amasci.com/emotor/chargdet.html Lethal speculation: victims with body-charging in hospitals might ignite anesthetic gas, or spark fabrics in oxy tent, even if their body is grounded by medical monitors ...if their breath can charge up distant surfaces. (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. Beatyhttp://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ beaty, chem washington edu Research Engineer billb, amasci com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 206-543-6195Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700
