Re: [Wikimedia-l] editor retention initiatives
On 26 August 2014 02:09, David Goodman dgge...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps the best way of doing this is the admittedly laborious method of personally communicating with new editors who seem promising and encouraging them and offering to help them continue. The key word in this is personally. It cannot be effectively done with wikilove messages , and certainly not with anything that looks like a template. Template welcomes are essentially in the same class as mail or web personalizedadvertisements. What works is to show that you actually read and appreciated what they are doing, to the extent you wanted to write something specific. I believe there is a software-facilitated way of doing this. You are quite right that the most effective way of retaining new editors who have good potential is for them to have some personalised contact and a sense of community, but you are right that it is time-consuming and it is also difficult to identify people who are a) new, b) have potential and c) are people that you personally are interested in helping. IMO the most likely way to help identify those people is to leverage the power of the WikiProjects (e.g. Birds, Military History, France, Mathematics...) to bring new users closer to communities-of-interest quickly. Erik Moller has spoken about this at Wikimania both this year and also a couple of years ago and I completely agree with him. Perhaps when a new user registers they can be asked to name a few things they're interested in (perhaps prompted from a list). This automagically connects them to the relevant Wikiproject and somehow tells the members of that wikiproject that a new user has just registered and expressed an interest in their topic. Proactive WikiProjects might set up some form of mentoring scheme, or welcoming committee, or 'tasks that newbies can do' list. It would be up to the WikiProject to work out the best ways to coordinate their work with newbies. Rather like the beginning of the academic year at a university - all the student clubs set up tables to compete to recruit new members :-) Yes - this requires software development and therefore needs to be put on a roadmap, budgeted for etc. etc. But, if we're talking about editor-retention and *personalised support, *I think it's high time that the WikiProjects receive some developer attention - in recognition of the fantastic work that they do in both coordinating the creation of good quality content and also in building a sense of community among editors (old and new). -Liam / Wittylama ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps regarding WMF-community disputes about deployments
Hoi, Actually the issue is no longer only that. It is also very much about how a subset of people high jack the conversation by their uncompromising stance. When they feel they might leave, I personally prefer it when they stop their posturing and decide either way. When they want to stay, they do not need to be welcomed, they are part of us. When they go, they are welcome and they can take with them everything we have in the sense of data and software. It is then for them to show that their proof is in their pudding. In the mean time WMF will continue to engage in best practices both technically and socially and when they cook something nice, what is on offer is there for the eating as well. As far as I am concerned, put up or shut up. It has been advertised widely that bugs will be squashed. It is also advertised widely that changes will be considered as long as they are reasonable and do not interfere with our prime directive. Again, it is about the readers not super users. Thanks, GerardM On 25 August 2014 11:16, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: The issue is not just that individual users may want to opt out, it's whether it should be activated by default for readers. There is also the matter of licensing information. I'm not aware of where thermonuclear was was threatened. There were, and continues to be, discussion about forking. MV is merely the latest occurrence of products with major problems being pushed into production and made default. That needs to be addressed, and the fact that the problems with MV happened after AFT5 and VE *and* after the creation of the Engineering Community Liaisons suggests deep, long-term problems with product development. I believe that Lila said that the Board wants her to transform WMF and I am glad that there seems to be agreement that Product will be an early subject of transformation. I have reservations about forking for reasons that I can explain if necessary. It would be a lot easier if WMF would transform itself, starting with Product, and Lila appears to intend to make this happen. I hope that the processes for Product will be democratic and consensus-based. Grantmaking has already demonstrated the effectiveness of community-based decision making with FDC and IEGCom, and I hope to see a similar model emerge for Product. If it doesn't, there is enough anger in the community, especially on DEWP, that a fork is possible. The community is smart enough collectively to figure out a way to make a fork happen, and some of us have been discussing the mechanics of how this would work. We could do it, but reforming WMF is preferable. I hope that Lila can and will do this. Internal transofmration is preferable to replacing WMF. Pine ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] editor retention initiatives
I have seen good results with the thank feature. It is easy to use and seems appreciated. When thanked users write to me in response, I have noticed that a specific and neutral I read your edits about xyz and appreciate them seems to be more likely to encourage more edits about xyz rather than a suggestion to do something else about xyz (such as joining a wiki project) Sent from my iPad On Aug 26, 2014, at 4:59 AM, Liam Wyatt liamwy...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 August 2014 02:09, David Goodman dgge...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps the best way of doing this is the admittedly laborious method of personally communicating with new editors who seem promising and encouraging them and offering to help them continue. The key word in this is personally. It cannot be effectively done with wikilove messages , and certainly not with anything that looks like a template. Template welcomes are essentially in the same class as mail or web personalizedadvertisements. What works is to show that you actually read and appreciated what they are doing, to the extent you wanted to write something specific. I believe there is a software-facilitated way of doing this. You are quite right that the most effective way of retaining new editors who have good potential is for them to have some personalised contact and a sense of community, but you are right that it is time-consuming and it is also difficult to identify people who are a) new, b) have potential and c) are people that you personally are interested in helping. IMO the most likely way to help identify those people is to leverage the power of the WikiProjects (e.g. Birds, Military History, France, Mathematics...) to bring new users closer to communities-of-interest quickly. Erik Moller has spoken about this at Wikimania both this year and also a couple of years ago and I completely agree with him. Perhaps when a new user registers they can be asked to name a few things they're interested in (perhaps prompted from a list). This automagically connects them to the relevant Wikiproject and somehow tells the members of that wikiproject that a new user has just registered and expressed an interest in their topic. Proactive WikiProjects might set up some form of mentoring scheme, or welcoming committee, or 'tasks that newbies can do' list. It would be up to the WikiProject to work out the best ways to coordinate their work with newbies. Rather like the beginning of the academic year at a university - all the student clubs set up tables to compete to recruit new members :-) Yes - this requires software development and therefore needs to be put on a roadmap, budgeted for etc. etc. But, if we're talking about editor-retention and *personalised support, *I think it's high time that the WikiProjects receive some developer attention - in recognition of the fantastic work that they do in both coordinating the creation of good quality content and also in building a sense of community among editors (old and new). -Liam / Wittylama ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] editor retention initiatives
I agree with this wholeheartedly. When I think back to when I was new on Wikipedia, pretty early on I got an honest-to-god personal message from someone to thank me for correcting a typo ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Lankiveildiff=5647166oldid=5629943 ). It made me feel like this was a community of nice people that I wanted to collaborate on things with, and was probably instrumental in me sticking around. The editor retention problem will not be solved with technological gizmos and doodads, nor with top-down solutions imposed from above. It will be solved with positive human contact and creating a collaborative community that people actually want to be a part of, rather than one that they put up with. Template welcomes and messages that have all the warmth of a form letter enclosed in a utility bill won't make a lasting improvement in the long run. The intention behind things like the thank button are great, but they should be seen as at most an enabler, rather than as the actual solution to our problems. Cheers, Craig On 26 August 2014 10:09, David Goodman dgge...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps the best way of doing this is the admittedly laborious method of personally communicating with new editors who seem promising and encouraging them and offering to help them continue. The key word in this is personally. It cannot be effectively done with wikilove messages , and certainly not with anything that looks like a template. Template welcomes are essentially in the same class as mail or web personalizedadvertisements. What works is to show that you actually read and appreciated what they are doing, to the extent you wanted to write something specific. On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Ilario Valdelli valde...@gmail.com wrote: Wikimedia ch is doing a big investment in supporting communities. There are three community liaisons (a third hired recently) to support the three national languages which are also within the biggest linguistic communities. Anyway there is not a unique solution to be adapted easily in user retention and recruiting because the world is varioius as it is the life. Regards Il 24/ago/2014 03:56 James Salsman jsals...@gmail.com ha scritto: Is there a list somewhere of all currently active Foundation initiatives for attracting and retaining active editors? I am only aware of the one project, Task Recommendations, to try to encourage editors who have made a few edits to make more, described starting at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JbZ1uWoKEgt=60m20s I am not worried about pageviews at all, given that the trend is as constant as it has ever been when mobile users are added in to the total. Sadly, the greater number of mobile users appears to be harming active editor numbers beyond their already dismal trend, so it would be nice to have an idea of exactly how much effort the Foundation is applying to its only strategic goal which it is not achieved, and has not ever achieved. I am amazed that so much more effort continues to be applied to the other goals, all of which have always been met through to the present. What does this state of affairs say about the Foundation leadership's ability to prioritize? Is there any evidence at all that anyone in the Foundation is interested in any kind of change which would make non-editors more inclined to edit, or empower editors with social factors which might provide more time, economic power, or other means to enable them to edit more? ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- David Goodman DGG at the enWP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
Re: [Wikimedia-l] editor retention initiatives
This is why the thanks mechanism needs to work for IP edits too. (I submit that the hazard that we might accidentally be nice to someone we didn't mean to is not a sufficient threat to block this.) On 26 August 2014 11:18, Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net wrote: I agree with this wholeheartedly. When I think back to when I was new on Wikipedia, pretty early on I got an honest-to-god personal message from someone to thank me for correcting a typo ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Lankiveildiff=5647166oldid=5629943 ). It made me feel like this was a community of nice people that I wanted to collaborate on things with, and was probably instrumental in me sticking around. The editor retention problem will not be solved with technological gizmos and doodads, nor with top-down solutions imposed from above. It will be solved with positive human contact and creating a collaborative community that people actually want to be a part of, rather than one that they put up with. Template welcomes and messages that have all the warmth of a form letter enclosed in a utility bill won't make a lasting improvement in the long run. The intention behind things like the thank button are great, but they should be seen as at most an enabler, rather than as the actual solution to our problems. Cheers, Craig On 26 August 2014 10:09, David Goodman dgge...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps the best way of doing this is the admittedly laborious method of personally communicating with new editors who seem promising and encouraging them and offering to help them continue. The key word in this is personally. It cannot be effectively done with wikilove messages , and certainly not with anything that looks like a template. Template welcomes are essentially in the same class as mail or web personalizedadvertisements. What works is to show that you actually read and appreciated what they are doing, to the extent you wanted to write something specific. On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Ilario Valdelli valde...@gmail.com wrote: Wikimedia ch is doing a big investment in supporting communities. There are three community liaisons (a third hired recently) to support the three national languages which are also within the biggest linguistic communities. Anyway there is not a unique solution to be adapted easily in user retention and recruiting because the world is varioius as it is the life. Regards Il 24/ago/2014 03:56 James Salsman jsals...@gmail.com ha scritto: Is there a list somewhere of all currently active Foundation initiatives for attracting and retaining active editors? I am only aware of the one project, Task Recommendations, to try to encourage editors who have made a few edits to make more, described starting at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JbZ1uWoKEgt=60m20s I am not worried about pageviews at all, given that the trend is as constant as it has ever been when mobile users are added in to the total. Sadly, the greater number of mobile users appears to be harming active editor numbers beyond their already dismal trend, so it would be nice to have an idea of exactly how much effort the Foundation is applying to its only strategic goal which it is not achieved, and has not ever achieved. I am amazed that so much more effort continues to be applied to the other goals, all of which have always been met through to the present. What does this state of affairs say about the Foundation leadership's ability to prioritize? Is there any evidence at all that anyone in the Foundation is interested in any kind of change which would make non-editors more inclined to edit, or empower editors with social factors which might provide more time, economic power, or other means to enable them to edit more? ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- David Goodman DGG at the enWP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] editor retention initiatives
I agree with Craig The Thank function is not only good to give to new editors but also as a measurement to what action is appreciated by new beginners I frequently get thanks from new one after I have complemented, wikiadjusted their articles (HELP is appreciated) I never get a Thanks for putting up templates, neither on articles or an editors discussions page To my surprise, I do getTthanks though, when I am tougher and removes an article and put the text on a subpage to the editor, followed by a message often almost harsh (fluffy text, unecyclopedic, no sources, unclear what is meant etc) (Any type of personal feedback relevant to the person action IS appreciated) My three key actions to new editors are HELP, fix their articles directly, wikify, put on categories, infoboxes find sources and images and do this within an hour of its creation and without putting on templates SHOW APPRECIATION when a number of good action is seen, put on a personal message of appreciation on the editors talkpage praising his/her knowledge and competence INVOLVE after a time a month or two of repeated good actions, get the person involved by asking issues in his/her expert ares, invite to a IRL meting with other experts in his/her area of interest So absolutely The editor retention problem will not be solved with technological gizmos and doodads, nor with top-down solutions imposed from above. it is with personal messages and contacts and appriecation of competence Anders Craig Franklin skrev 2014-08-26 12:18: I agree with this wholeheartedly. When I think back to when I was new on Wikipedia, pretty early on I got an honest-to-god personal message from someone to thank me for correcting a typo ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Lankiveildiff=5647166oldid=5629943 ). It made me feel like this was a community of nice people that I wanted to collaborate on things with, and was probably instrumental in me sticking around. The editor retention problem will not be solved with technological gizmos and doodads, nor with top-down solutions imposed from above. It will be solved with positive human contact and creating a collaborative community that people actually want to be a part of, rather than one that they put up with. Template welcomes and messages that have all the warmth of a form letter enclosed in a utility bill won't make a lasting improvement in the long run. The intention behind things like the thank button are great, but they should be seen as at most an enabler, rather than as the actual solution to our problems. Cheers, Craig On 26 August 2014 10:09, David Goodman dgge...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps the best way of doing this is the admittedly laborious method of personally communicating with new editors who seem promising and encouraging them and offering to help them continue. The key word in this is personally. It cannot be effectively done with wikilove messages , and certainly not with anything that looks like a template. Template welcomes are essentially in the same class as mail or web personalizedadvertisements. What works is to show that you actually read and appreciated what they are doing, to the extent you wanted to write something specific. On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Ilario Valdelli valde...@gmail.com wrote: Wikimedia ch is doing a big investment in supporting communities. There are three community liaisons (a third hired recently) to support the three national languages which are also within the biggest linguistic communities. Anyway there is not a unique solution to be adapted easily in user retention and recruiting because the world is varioius as it is the life. Regards Il 24/ago/2014 03:56 James Salsman jsals...@gmail.com ha scritto: Is there a list somewhere of all currently active Foundation initiatives for attracting and retaining active editors? I am only aware of the one project, Task Recommendations, to try to encourage editors who have made a few edits to make more, described starting at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JbZ1uWoKEgt=60m20s I am not worried about pageviews at all, given that the trend is as constant as it has ever been when mobile users are added in to the total. Sadly, the greater number of mobile users appears to be harming active editor numbers beyond their already dismal trend, so it would be nice to have an idea of exactly how much effort the Foundation is applying to its only strategic goal which it is not achieved, and has not ever achieved. I am amazed that so much more effort continues to be applied to the other goals, all of which have always been met through to the present. What does this state of affairs say about the Foundation leadership's ability to prioritize? Is there any evidence at all that anyone in the Foundation is interested in any kind of change which would make non-editors more inclined to edit, or empower editors with social factors which might provide more time,
Re: [Wikimedia-l] editor retention initiatives
The question here is about editor retention. Honestly we can say thank you or we can use a lot of emoticons but the problem is always the same. At the first error the thank you and the pink sweet world disappears. There is always someone in the other side who is so gentle like the elephants in the a store of crystal things. The biggest problem in my opinion is to continue selecting administrators considering only their technical point of view and never their community management capacities. Every time I meet someone who left the Wikimedia projects the problem is the same: a conflict and frequently some block which seems to be unclear and incorrect. Please introduce something that is able to associate the beautiful words to the beautiful actions. HELP APPRECIATE INVOLVE Are really good points and applied not only to the new editors but to all editors. On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Anders Wennersten m...@anderswennersten.se wrote: I agree with Craig The Thank function is not only good to give to new editors but also as a measurement to what action is appreciated by new beginners I frequently get thanks from new one after I have complemented, wikiadjusted their articles (HELP is appreciated) I never get a Thanks for putting up templates, neither on articles or an editors discussions page To my surprise, I do getTthanks though, when I am tougher and removes an article and put the text on a subpage to the editor, followed by a message often almost harsh (fluffy text, unecyclopedic, no sources, unclear what is meant etc) (Any type of personal feedback relevant to the person action IS appreciated) My three key actions to new editors are HELP, fix their articles directly, wikify, put on categories, infoboxes find sources and images and do this within an hour of its creation and without putting on templates SHOW APPRECIATION when a number of good action is seen, put on a personal message of appreciation on the editors talkpage praising his/her knowledge and competence INVOLVE after a time a month or two of repeated good actions, get the person involved by asking issues in his/her expert ares, invite to a IRL meting with other experts in his/her area of interest So absolutely The editor retention problem will not be solved with technological gizmos and doodads, nor with top-down solutions imposed from above. it is with personal messages and contacts and appriecation of competence Anders Craig Franklin skrev 2014-08-26 12:18: I agree with this wholeheartedly. When I think back to when I was new on Wikipedia, pretty early on I got an honest-to-god personal message from someone to thank me for correcting a typo ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk: Lankiveildiff=5647166oldid=5629943 ). It made me feel like this was a community of nice people that I wanted to collaborate on things with, and was probably instrumental in me sticking around. The editor retention problem will not be solved with technological gizmos and doodads, nor with top-down solutions imposed from above. It will be solved with positive human contact and creating a collaborative community that people actually want to be a part of, rather than one that they put up with. Template welcomes and messages that have all the warmth of a form letter enclosed in a utility bill won't make a lasting improvement in the long run. The intention behind things like the thank button are great, but they should be seen as at most an enabler, rather than as the actual solution to our problems. Cheers, Craig On 26 August 2014 10:09, David Goodman dgge...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps the best way of doing this is the admittedly laborious method of personally communicating with new editors who seem promising and encouraging them and offering to help them continue. The key word in this is personally. It cannot be effectively done with wikilove messages , and certainly not with anything that looks like a template. Template welcomes are essentially in the same class as mail or web personalizedadvertisements. What works is to show that you actually read and appreciated what they are doing, to the extent you wanted to write something specific. On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Ilario Valdelli valde...@gmail.com wrote: Wikimedia ch is doing a big investment in supporting communities. There are three community liaisons (a third hired recently) to support the three national languages which are also within the biggest linguistic communities. Anyway there is not a unique solution to be adapted easily in user retention and recruiting because the world is varioius as it is the life. Regards Il 24/ago/2014 03:56 James Salsman jsals...@gmail.com ha scritto: Is there a list somewhere of all currently active Foundation initiatives for attracting and retaining active editors? I am only aware of the one project, Task Recommendations, to try to
[Wikimedia-l] editor retention initiatives
David Goodman has this exactly right — new volunteers (as opposed to casual contributors) aren't made with templates of cookies or beer, they are generally made one at a time, with personal attention and personal assistance. Teahouse is one of the best ideas of the last five years, being a place where newcomers can go to ask specific questions. Mentoring programs is another very correct step. I'm currently working with a buddy who is getting into it. Wiki markup gunk isn't a big problem for him; he's about 40 years old and has been around html enough that it doesn't put him off. Footnoting he initially found difficult, but I taught him how to do it long form rather than using layout clogging templates, so that might have added an hour or two to the learning curve. Still: not that difficult and he already has the knack of it — and once you learn that, it's all very simple. I'm going to write him a couple thousand word email on linking today. That's all pretty self-evident. We had lunch yesterday and I explained to him the way that some topics which interest him (alternative medicine) are going to be battleground areas in which he really must be a master of NPOV; while other interests, relating to popular culture and sports, are less intense, with rawer and worse articles standing that need Tender Loving Care. He's enthusiastic about WP, and there is absolutely no substitute for that. That is the thing that is missing in college students doing class projects. My experience thus far with them is that they dive in at the 11th hour, do minimally decent work necessary to complete the assignment, ask zero questions, and then vanish. Serious, longterm editors are made one at a time, I think. It starts with personal attention. It requires someone to explain editing techniques and (just as importantly) WP culture and policies and tour-guiding them through all the policy pages and various backstage aspects of WP. It also involves something we have totally ignored so far: making sure they have something to do: assigning projects.You like this band? Dig up more sources, flesh it out. Oh, your grandpa was a pro athlete and already has a page? Dig up some news stories on his career... Write about his teammates... Hey, this article on the NFL championship game he played in is pretty terrible, why not see if you can make it better? Another unspoken problem is photo rights, which is (1) confusing to start with; (2) subject to one of the worst decisions ever, the choice to use free files rather than to make use of American fair use legal doctrine; (3) populated by anal retentive volunteers who delete first and ask questions never, engage only with templates, work too fast, and who in many cases I suspect take malicious joy in their work. I know that that was the aspect of WP that alienated me the worst as a newcomer. It still does. So, WMF sorts: remember that this is a slow process and that there are no magical software solutions. Creating new Very Active Editors takes motivated candidates and volunteers willing to take newcomers under their wings. Tim Davenport Corvallis, OR Carrite on WP /// Randy from Boise on WPO DAVID GOOMAN WROTE: Perhaps the best way of doing this is the admittedly laborious method of personally communicating with new editors who seem promising and encouraging them and offering to help them continue. The key word in this is personally. It cannot be effectively done with wikilove messages, and certainly not with anything that looks like a template. Template welcomes are essentially in the same class as mail or web personalizedadvertisements. What works is to show that you actually read and appreciated what they are doing, to the extent you wanted to write something specific. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Wikimedia engineering report, July 2014
Hi, The report covering Wikimedia engineering activities in July 2014 is now available. Wiki version: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Report/2014/July Blog version: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/ We're also proposing a shorter version of this report focusing on priority goals for this quarter: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Report/2014/July/summary Below is the HTML text of the report. As always, feedback is appreciated on the usefulness of the report and its summary, and on how to improve them. -- Major news in July include: - a recap of how the Operations team collaborated with the RIPE NCC https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/07/09/how-ripe-atlas-helped-wikipedia-users/ to measure the delivery of Wikimedia sites to users in Asia and elsewhere; - an analysis of the impact of the San Francisco data center https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/07/11/making-wikimedia-sites-faster/ on the speed of Wikimedia sites; - the launch of the new native Wikipedia app for iOS https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/07/31/official-wikipedia-app-available-on-ios-and-android/ ; - a first look at the content translation tool https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/07/16/first-look-at-the-content-translation-tool/ . *Note: We’re also providing a shorter and translatable version of this report https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/Report/2014/July/summary.* Engineering metrics in July: - 164 unique committers contributed patchsets of code to MediaWiki. - The total number ofunresolved commits https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#q,status:open+project:%255Emediawiki.*,n,z went from around 1575 to about 1642. - About 31 shell requests https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Shell_requestswere processed. Contents - Personnel https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Personnel - Work with us https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Work_with_us - Announcements https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Announcements - Technical Operations https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Technical_Operations - Features Engineering https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Features_Engineering - Editor retention: Editing tools https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/_Editing_tools - Services https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Services - Core Features https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Core_Features - Growth https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Growth - Mobile https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Mobile - Language Engineering https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Language_Engineering - Platform Engineering https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Platform_Engineering - MediaWiki Core https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#MediaWiki_Core - Release Engineering https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Release_Engineering - Multimedia https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Multimedia - Engineering Community Team https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Engineering_Community_Team - Analytics https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Analytics - Kiwix https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Kiwix - 10 Wikidata https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Wikidata - 11 Future https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/26/engineering-report-july-2014/#Future PersonnelWork with us https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Work_with_us Are you looking to work for Wikimedia? We have a lot of hiring coming up, and we really love talking to active community members about these roles. - VP of Engineering http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qSa9VfwQcs=9UL9Vfwtpage=Job%20Descriptionj=ods8Xfwu - Software Engineer – Front-end (VisualEditor) http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qSa9VfwQcs=9UL9Vfwtpage=Job%20Descriptionj=o8jyYfwH - Software Engineer – Services http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qSa9VfwQcs=9UL9Vfwtpage=Job%20Descriptionj=oAhYYfwx - Software Engineer – Front-end http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qSa9VfwQcs=9UL9Vfwtpage=Job%20Descriptionj=oxgWYfwr - Software Engineer – Maps Geo
[Wikimedia-l] personally communicating with new editors (was: Re: editor retention initiatives)
Hi, David Goodman wrote: Perhaps the best way of doing this is the admittedly laborious method of personally communicating with new editors who seem promising and encouraging them and offering to help them continue. The key word in this is personally. It cannot be effectively done with wikilove messages , and certainly not with anything that looks like a template. Template welcomes are essentially in the same class as mail or web personalizedadvertisements. What works is to show that you actually read and appreciated what they are doing, to the extent you wanted to write something specific. Thanks, I agree. I'm pretty passionate about making a difference in this area. I would personally go and start doing that /right now/, but the question remains open: Which activity should I engage in for all that to happen? - Look at recent edits and collaborate with new people? That's a most thankless item on this list, perhaps, as people edit more than anything else. - Look at newly created pages and collaborate on those with due care and attention to the new people? That'd be nice. (although imo the drafts process at English Wikipedia creates an unnecessary hierarchy -- I'd love to remain a peer and treat the newcomer as a source of wonderful knowledge, not as a reviewee or mentoree. For this reason, I might perhaps only do this to articles created in main namespace.) - I had written a script [2] which makes draft review things more personal by not using a template in review comments, but I couldn't figure out whom to approach to get it deployed, or how to prevent ugly [3] templates on talk pages of people who submitted a draft for review. - Reworking the welcome template into something else? Into what specifically? - There are other things I tried to do, such as leave simple short messages such as [4], but I have not been doing enough of them to figure out who likes them. - Many many examples, warning vandals for example, completely template thing, they get reborn as trolls, etc. see also [5]. But there is a need to not feed them still, i.e. put some effort into personal communication but not too much. - Figuring out how to provide IP contributors with more software, up to the point it's technically possible? ([1] lists some software limitations). - add your thought here How do I set priorities in such list? Where to start tackling the problem? svetlana [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Musings_about_unregistered_contributors [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gryllida/DraftsReview [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Artistintown [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:128.194.3.84 [5] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Clogged_talk_pages ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] personally communicating with new editors (was: Re: editor retention initiatives)
How about starting a campaign to grow and develop the community around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Snuggle ? *Edward Saperia* Conference Director Wikimania London http://www.wikimanialondon.org email e...@wikimanialondon.org • facebook http://www.facebook.com/edsaperia • twitter http://www.twitter.com/edsaperia • 07796955572 133-135 Bethnal Green Road, E2 7DG On 26 August 2014 13:03, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote: Hi, David Goodman wrote: Perhaps the best way of doing this is the admittedly laborious method of personally communicating with new editors who seem promising and encouraging them and offering to help them continue. The key word in this is personally. It cannot be effectively done with wikilove messages , and certainly not with anything that looks like a template. Template welcomes are essentially in the same class as mail or web personalizedadvertisements. What works is to show that you actually read and appreciated what they are doing, to the extent you wanted to write something specific. Thanks, I agree. I'm pretty passionate about making a difference in this area. I would personally go and start doing that /right now/, but the question remains open: Which activity should I engage in for all that to happen? - Look at recent edits and collaborate with new people? That's a most thankless item on this list, perhaps, as people edit more than anything else. - Look at newly created pages and collaborate on those with due care and attention to the new people? That'd be nice. (although imo the drafts process at English Wikipedia creates an unnecessary hierarchy -- I'd love to remain a peer and treat the newcomer as a source of wonderful knowledge, not as a reviewee or mentoree. For this reason, I might perhaps only do this to articles created in main namespace.) - I had written a script [2] which makes draft review things more personal by not using a template in review comments, but I couldn't figure out whom to approach to get it deployed, or how to prevent ugly [3] templates on talk pages of people who submitted a draft for review. - Reworking the welcome template into something else? Into what specifically? - There are other things I tried to do, such as leave simple short messages such as [4], but I have not been doing enough of them to figure out who likes them. - Many many examples, warning vandals for example, completely template thing, they get reborn as trolls, etc. see also [5]. But there is a need to not feed them still, i.e. put some effort into personal communication but not too much. - Figuring out how to provide IP contributors with more software, up to the point it's technically possible? ([1] lists some software limitations). - add your thought here How do I set priorities in such list? Where to start tackling the problem? svetlana [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Musings_about_unregistered_contributors [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gryllida/DraftsReview [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Artistintown [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:128.194.3.84 [5] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Clogged_talk_pages ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] editor retention initiatives
I too have seen some good results with the thank feature ( There are even better results when I write something specific.) I agree with Anders that the thank message is especially useful when sent to me, indicating that something I did was understood--in my case, usually that if I accepted or rescued an article the person is still around. Ideally I should follow it up with a real message. I But if it's in response to something like deletion, I am always unsure if it's genuine thanks, or meant in the opposite sense. One of the advantage in using real language is greater clarity. I still remember exactly some encouraging things said to me by experienced users in my first few months when I first came here 8 years ago; mot were not separate messages, but in the course of discussion. When difficulties arise, I recall them to encourage myself. I even read over my RfA from time to time. I completely agree with Liam that the way forward in many areas is with the Wikiprojects. They need further development, but I'm not sure how much of this requires additional software, rather than additional active participation. We should learn from the most successful, such as military history. (or chemistry or medicine) They're a self-organizing feature, with the advantage of not requiring funding or help from the foundation. Some have however on enWP become somewhat of a closed circle, immune to community views to the point of trying to maintain guidelines the community does not support .he remedy for this as for essentially everything else is increased participation. On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 7:58 AM, Ilario Valdelli valde...@gmail.com wrote: The question here is about editor retention. Honestly we can say thank you or we can use a lot of emoticons but the problem is always the same. At the first error the thank you and the pink sweet world disappears. There is always someone in the other side who is so gentle like the elephants in the a store of crystal things. The biggest problem in my opinion is to continue selecting administrators considering only their technical point of view and never their community management capacities. Every time I meet someone who left the Wikimedia projects the problem is the same: a conflict and frequently some block which seems to be unclear and incorrect. Please introduce something that is able to associate the beautiful words to the beautiful actions. HELP APPRECIATE INVOLVE Are really good points and applied not only to the new editors but to all editors. On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Anders Wennersten m...@anderswennersten.se wrote: I agree with Craig The Thank function is not only good to give to new editors but also as a measurement to what action is appreciated by new beginners I frequently get thanks from new one after I have complemented, wikiadjusted their articles (HELP is appreciated) I never get a Thanks for putting up templates, neither on articles or an editors discussions page To my surprise, I do getTthanks though, when I am tougher and removes an article and put the text on a subpage to the editor, followed by a message often almost harsh (fluffy text, unecyclopedic, no sources, unclear what is meant etc) (Any type of personal feedback relevant to the person action IS appreciated) My three key actions to new editors are HELP, fix their articles directly, wikify, put on categories, infoboxes find sources and images and do this within an hour of its creation and without putting on templates SHOW APPRECIATION when a number of good action is seen, put on a personal message of appreciation on the editors talkpage praising his/her knowledge and competence INVOLVE after a time a month or two of repeated good actions, get the person involved by asking issues in his/her expert ares, invite to a IRL meting with other experts in his/her area of interest So absolutely The editor retention problem will not be solved with technological gizmos and doodads, nor with top-down solutions imposed from above. it is with personal messages and contacts and appriecation of competence Anders Craig Franklin skrev 2014-08-26 12:18: I agree with this wholeheartedly. When I think back to when I was new on Wikipedia, pretty early on I got an honest-to-god personal message from someone to thank me for correcting a typo ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk: Lankiveildiff=5647166oldid=5629943 ). It made me feel like this was a community of nice people that I wanted to collaborate on things with, and was probably instrumental in me sticking around. The editor retention problem will not be solved with technological gizmos and doodads, nor with top-down solutions imposed from above. It will be solved with positive human contact and creating a collaborative community that people actually want to be a part of, rather than one that
Re: [Wikimedia-l] personally communicating with new editors (was: Re: editor retention initiatives)
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 5:03 AM, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote: - Look at newly created pages and collaborate on those with due care and attention to the new people? That'd be nice. (although imo the drafts process at English Wikipedia creates an unnecessary hierarchy -- I'd love to remain a peer and treat the newcomer as a source of wonderful knowledge, not as a reviewee or mentoree. For this reason, I might perhaps only do this to articles created in main namespace.) Take a look through WP:PAFC--you'll find lots of new people, and many of them getting burnt not just by rude comments but by waiting weeks for any comment at all. Quite a bit of gatekeeping is necessary there, however. There's more advertisements and copyvios than serious content coming in through that channel. I would prefer, however, that AfC head more toward quickly assessing that, and take on a more collaborative role beyond the most serious issues. The gatekeeping function would be a lot easier if the New Pages Feed tool was modified to work in this arena, but I'm told that there's been resistance to this idea from engineering. If that's true, and it may not be, it's a pity. Our automation for copyvio detection is also pathetic, I can catch more copyvios by pick a sentence, Google it than CorenBot and its kin identify automatically. Smarter technology there built into the right tool for the job would be extremely helpful, why are we throwing away the limited resource of experienced editor's time doing mechanical checks? - I had written a script [2] which makes draft review things more personal by not using a template in review comments, but I couldn't figure out whom to approach to get it deployed, or how to prevent ugly [3] templates on talk pages of people who submitted a draft for review. There are a couple folks to talk to, but they all follow WT:AFC, and I'd start there. But better would be to figure out how to integrate that work into Special:NewPagesFeed. However, while all of this is true, I think it's not the biggest problem. What is? Right now, there are around 2600 new editors waiting for a friendly word from anyone, and over 1000 of them have been waiting for three weeks or more. Endless waiting is not engaging. Any discussion which attempts to imagine we can help attract and hold new editors without finding a plausible, constructive solution to that backlog is missing the forest through the trees. Improved automation (Special:NewPagesFeed, copyright detection improvements), nicer wording, and so forth could both make the process more pleasant for experienced editors to participate in and focusing attention away from serious problems and onto engagement with editors with serious potential. There is room for technology to play a significant supporting role. The whole process of new articles from new editors needs a fresh look as well. 80% of those new editors are going to fail at what they are trying to do--their articles will get deleted. In most cases, no amount of help would have saved their particular article idea. It's a damn shame that Foundation policy the editing community prevents us from educating them before they invest quite a bit of work into articles that are doomed to failure, because I'm pretty sure that I put a good deal of work into something over a couple months and it all came to nothing is a recipe for whatever the opposite of editor retention is. And we need to face that fact straight in the eye and come to some sensible way of fixing it. --Joe -- Joe Decker www.joedecker.net ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] personally communicating with new editors (was: Re: editor retention initiatives)
I think, especially given that the Foundation has indicated some willingness to review their stance regarding such community initiatives, it's time to revisit the idea of a time-limited trial of restricting mainspace new page creation to autoconfirmed (and manually confirmed) editors. The concern there was that it would hurt in attracting new editors, but I think it'd be immensely helpful in doing so. The problems indicated on this thread are the exact ones this was intended to fix, from two angles. The first is that it will help to stem the tide of true garbage from editors who don't ever intend to be helpful. Copy-pasters, spammers, and vandals will probably largely be put off by that requirement rather than bothering to fulfill it. Right now, new page curators are spending so much time dealing with that crapflood that they just don't have time to personally engage those whose articles are deleted, especially when many of them just wanted to post an advertisement or JOHN U SUCK LULZ! and have no interest in anything else. The second benefit, though, allows us to take that time saved to focus on the good-faith but green new editor, who's maybe about to start writing a page about their friend's garage band. A lot of people have no idea that type of thing isn't accepted on Wikipedia, and really think they're being helpful by writing it. They might be the type who's willing to engage a bit, make a few helpful edits, get some contact with experienced editors, and realize that their article idea isn't going to fly. That's a great deal better than getting the Your article will be nuked from orbit, sorry message after they actually did put some time into learning markup and writing halfway decently. At the very least, they'll be funneled into a guided process instead, where they hopefully can be given more helpful feedback. At the very least, it's worth taking another look at the proposal to try it and use the trial period to gain useful data on its effects. On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 9:36 AM, Joe Decker joedec...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 5:03 AM, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote: - Look at newly created pages and collaborate on those with due care and attention to the new people? That'd be nice. (although imo the drafts process at English Wikipedia creates an unnecessary hierarchy -- I'd love to remain a peer and treat the newcomer as a source of wonderful knowledge, not as a reviewee or mentoree. For this reason, I might perhaps only do this to articles created in main namespace.) Take a look through WP:PAFC--you'll find lots of new people, and many of them getting burnt not just by rude comments but by waiting weeks for any comment at all. Quite a bit of gatekeeping is necessary there, however. There's more advertisements and copyvios than serious content coming in through that channel. I would prefer, however, that AfC head more toward quickly assessing that, and take on a more collaborative role beyond the most serious issues. The gatekeeping function would be a lot easier if the New Pages Feed tool was modified to work in this arena, but I'm told that there's been resistance to this idea from engineering. If that's true, and it may not be, it's a pity. Our automation for copyvio detection is also pathetic, I can catch more copyvios by pick a sentence, Google it than CorenBot and its kin identify automatically. Smarter technology there built into the right tool for the job would be extremely helpful, why are we throwing away the limited resource of experienced editor's time doing mechanical checks? - I had written a script [2] which makes draft review things more personal by not using a template in review comments, but I couldn't figure out whom to approach to get it deployed, or how to prevent ugly [3] templates on talk pages of people who submitted a draft for review. There are a couple folks to talk to, but they all follow WT:AFC, and I'd start there. But better would be to figure out how to integrate that work into Special:NewPagesFeed. However, while all of this is true, I think it's not the biggest problem. What is? Right now, there are around 2600 new editors waiting for a friendly word from anyone, and over 1000 of them have been waiting for three weeks or more. Endless waiting is not engaging. Any discussion which attempts to imagine we can help attract and hold new editors without finding a plausible, constructive solution to that backlog is missing the forest through the trees. Improved automation (Special:NewPagesFeed, copyright detection improvements), nicer wording, and so forth could both make the process more pleasant for experienced editors to participate in and focusing attention away from serious problems and onto engagement with editors with serious potential. There is room for technology to play a significant supporting role. The whole process of new articles from new
Re: [Wikimedia-l] New movement org?
how did you find them? (and that fast) Balazs 2014.08.23. 22:45, Richard Farmbrough rich...@farmbrough.co.uk ezt írta: Note that while it *is* a trademark issue, it isn't *just* a trademark issue. On 21 August 2014 18:44, Gregory Varnum gregory.var...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you Richard for bringing this to everyone's attention. So folks know, WMF Legal and the Affiliations Committee are investigating and will be reaching out to the group soon. Thanks! -greg aka varnent Wikimedia Affiliations Committee Vice Chair On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 1:13 PM, Richard Symonds richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: Thanks all! I have passed this over to WMF legal to deal with as it's a trademark issue. Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.* On 21 August 2014 17:31, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 August 2014 12:21, James Forrester jdforres...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 August 2014 09:13, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Richard, any links to where you found this information? The ever-excellent OpenCorporates has its entry: https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_mi/71656Y … leading to the official US state of Michigan's entry: http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/bcs_corp/dt_corp.asp?id_nbr=71656Y No information about the officers, sadly, just a filing office. Incorporation documents here: http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/bcs_corp/image.asp?FILE_TYPE=ELFFILE_NAME=D201408\2014224\E0091608.TIF President: Scott Perry Vice President: Ann Perry Secretary: Danielle Lewis Someone else can figure out how to copy/paste. Risker/Anne ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Landline (UK) 01780 757 250 Mobile (UK) 0798 1995 792 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] New movement org?
I edit OpenCorporates when I can. :-) On 26 Aug 2014 21:02, Balázs Viczián balazs.vicz...@wikimedia.hu wrote: how did you find them? (and that fast) Balazs 2014.08.23. 22:45, Richard Farmbrough rich...@farmbrough.co.uk ezt írta: Note that while it *is* a trademark issue, it isn't *just* a trademark issue. On 21 August 2014 18:44, Gregory Varnum gregory.var...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you Richard for bringing this to everyone's attention. So folks know, WMF Legal and the Affiliations Committee are investigating and will be reaching out to the group soon. Thanks! -greg aka varnent Wikimedia Affiliations Committee Vice Chair On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 1:13 PM, Richard Symonds richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: Thanks all! I have passed this over to WMF legal to deal with as it's a trademark issue. Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.* On 21 August 2014 17:31, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 August 2014 12:21, James Forrester jdforres...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 August 2014 09:13, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Richard, any links to where you found this information? The ever-excellent OpenCorporates has its entry: https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_mi/71656Y … leading to the official US state of Michigan's entry: http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/bcs_corp/dt_corp.asp?id_nbr=71656Y No information about the officers, sadly, just a filing office. Incorporation documents here: http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/bcs_corp/image.asp?FILE_TYPE=ELFFILE_NAME=D201408\2014224\E0091608.TIF President: Scott Perry Vice President: Ann Perry Secretary: Danielle Lewis Someone else can figure out how to copy/paste. Risker/Anne ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Landline (UK) 01780 757 250 Mobile (UK) 0798 1995 792 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] New movement org?
Hello, I'm not sure whether this is a case for the whole movement (and this list...) Kind regards Ziko 2014-08-26 22:03 GMT+02:00 Richard Symonds richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk: I edit OpenCorporates when I can. :-) On 26 Aug 2014 21:02, Balázs Viczián balazs.vicz...@wikimedia.hu wrote: how did you find them? (and that fast) Balazs 2014.08.23. 22:45, Richard Farmbrough rich...@farmbrough.co.uk ezt írta: Note that while it *is* a trademark issue, it isn't *just* a trademark issue. On 21 August 2014 18:44, Gregory Varnum gregory.var...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you Richard for bringing this to everyone's attention. So folks know, WMF Legal and the Affiliations Committee are investigating and will be reaching out to the group soon. Thanks! -greg aka varnent Wikimedia Affiliations Committee Vice Chair On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 1:13 PM, Richard Symonds richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: Thanks all! I have passed this over to WMF legal to deal with as it's a trademark issue. Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.* On 21 August 2014 17:31, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 August 2014 12:21, James Forrester jdforres...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 August 2014 09:13, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Richard, any links to where you found this information? The ever-excellent OpenCorporates has its entry: https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_mi/71656Y … leading to the official US state of Michigan's entry: http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/bcs_corp/dt_corp.asp?id_nbr=71656Y No information about the officers, sadly, just a filing office. Incorporation documents here: http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/bcs_corp/image.asp?FILE_TYPE=ELFFILE_NAME=D201408\2014224\E0091608.TIF President: Scott Perry Vice President: Ann Perry Secretary: Danielle Lewis Someone else can figure out how to copy/paste. Risker/Anne ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Landline (UK) 01780 757 250 Mobile (UK) 0798 1995 792 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
Re: [Wikimedia-l] New movement org?
It isn't. .. sorry for bringing it up! I consider it closed. :-) On 26 Aug 2014 22:12, Ziko van Dijk zvand...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I'm not sure whether this is a case for the whole movement (and this list...) Kind regards Ziko 2014-08-26 22:03 GMT+02:00 Richard Symonds richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk: I edit OpenCorporates when I can. :-) On 26 Aug 2014 21:02, Balázs Viczián balazs.vicz...@wikimedia.hu wrote: how did you find them? (and that fast) Balazs 2014.08.23. 22:45, Richard Farmbrough rich...@farmbrough.co.uk ezt írta: Note that while it *is* a trademark issue, it isn't *just* a trademark issue. On 21 August 2014 18:44, Gregory Varnum gregory.var...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you Richard for bringing this to everyone's attention. So folks know, WMF Legal and the Affiliations Committee are investigating and will be reaching out to the group soon. Thanks! -greg aka varnent Wikimedia Affiliations Committee Vice Chair On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 1:13 PM, Richard Symonds richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: Thanks all! I have passed this over to WMF legal to deal with as it's a trademark issue. Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.* On 21 August 2014 17:31, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 August 2014 12:21, James Forrester jdforres...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 August 2014 09:13, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Richard, any links to where you found this information? The ever-excellent OpenCorporates has its entry: https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_mi/71656Y … leading to the official US state of Michigan's entry: http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/bcs_corp/dt_corp.asp?id_nbr=71656Y No information about the officers, sadly, just a filing office. Incorporation documents here: http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/bcs_corp/image.asp?FILE_TYPE=ELFFILE_NAME=D201408\2014224\E0091608.TIF President: Scott Perry Vice President: Ann Perry Secretary: Danielle Lewis Someone else can figure out how to copy/paste. Risker/Anne ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe -- Landline (UK) 01780 757 250 Mobile (UK) 0798 1995 792 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l , mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
Re: [Wikimedia-l] personally communicating with new editors (was: Re: editor retention initiatives)
Re Todd Allen's remark about raising the threshold for article creation to auto confirmed: Copy-pasters, spammers, and vandals will probably largely be put off by that requirement rather than bothering to fulfill it is an interesting theory, the counter view is that vandals and other bad faith editors will do the minimum necessary to commit their damage, but a proportion of good faith editors will be lost if you make it more difficult for them. From my experiences in Wikimedia sites and elsewhere I find the latter theory much more convincing than the former. So i judge proposals such as ACTrial on the assumption that they would be a significantly greater deterrent to good editors than to bad ones. Of course I may be wrong, as might be those who disagree with me. This is one of those things where a controlled scientific test would be useful - another is the ongoing divide between those who think it important to template new editors and their articles as fast as possible in order that they know the flaws in their editing before they stop editing, and those like me who would like to slow down or better re channel the effort of templaters on the assumption that the faster they template the newbies the quicker the newbies will leave. It is very difficult to achieve consensus for change where large parts of the community work on diametrically opposed assumptions. Independent neutral research might make it easier to build consensus and better decisions. Regards Jonathan (WereSpielChequers) On 26 Aug 2014, at 17:06, wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org wrote: Copy-pasters, spammers, and vandals will probably largely be put off by that requirement rather than bothering to fulfill it ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] editor retention initiatives
I have coincidentally raised the question of fair-use images for living people at the Gender Gap Taskforce talk page. Perhaps this is something we shoudl take to the policy talk page? On 26 August 2014 14:24, Tim Davenport shoehu...@gmail.com wrote: David Goodman has this exactly right — new volunteers (as opposed to casual contributors) aren't made with templates of cookies or beer, they are generally made one at a time, with personal attention and personal assistance. Teahouse is one of the best ideas of the last five years, being a place where newcomers can go to ask specific questions. Mentoring programs is another very correct step. I'm currently working with a buddy who is getting into it. Wiki markup gunk isn't a big problem for him; he's about 40 years old and has been around html enough that it doesn't put him off. Footnoting he initially found difficult, but I taught him how to do it long form rather than using layout clogging templates, so that might have added an hour or two to the learning curve. Still: not that difficult and he already has the knack of it — and once you learn that, it's all very simple. I'm going to write him a couple thousand word email on linking today. That's all pretty self-evident. We had lunch yesterday and I explained to him the way that some topics which interest him (alternative medicine) are going to be battleground areas in which he really must be a master of NPOV; while other interests, relating to popular culture and sports, are less intense, with rawer and worse articles standing that need Tender Loving Care. He's enthusiastic about WP, and there is absolutely no substitute for that. That is the thing that is missing in college students doing class projects. My experience thus far with them is that they dive in at the 11th hour, do minimally decent work necessary to complete the assignment, ask zero questions, and then vanish. Serious, longterm editors are made one at a time, I think. It starts with personal attention. It requires someone to explain editing techniques and (just as importantly) WP culture and policies and tour-guiding them through all the policy pages and various backstage aspects of WP. It also involves something we have totally ignored so far: making sure they have something to do: assigning projects.You like this band? Dig up more sources, flesh it out. Oh, your grandpa was a pro athlete and already has a page? Dig up some news stories on his career... Write about his teammates... Hey, this article on the NFL championship game he played in is pretty terrible, why not see if you can make it better? Another unspoken problem is photo rights, which is (1) confusing to start with; (2) subject to one of the worst decisions ever, the choice to use free files rather than to make use of American fair use legal doctrine; (3) populated by anal retentive volunteers who delete first and ask questions never, engage only with templates, work too fast, and who in many cases I suspect take malicious joy in their work. I know that that was the aspect of WP that alienated me the worst as a newcomer. It still does. So, WMF sorts: remember that this is a slow process and that there are no magical software solutions. Creating new Very Active Editors takes motivated candidates and volunteers willing to take newcomers under their wings. Tim Davenport Corvallis, OR Carrite on WP /// Randy from Boise on WPO DAVID GOOMAN WROTE: Perhaps the best way of doing this is the admittedly laborious method of personally communicating with new editors who seem promising and encouraging them and offering to help them continue. The key word in this is personally. It cannot be effectively done with wikilove messages, and certainly not with anything that looks like a template. Template welcomes are essentially in the same class as mail or web personalizedadvertisements. What works is to show that you actually read and appreciated what they are doing, to the extent you wanted to write something specific. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Landline (UK) 01780 757 250 Mobile (UK) 0798 1995 792 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps regarding WMF-community disputes about deployments
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 10:35 PM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: If you take a look at the mobile experience in a desktop browser, you'll find it not so different from many redesigns - large, readable text, narrower measure, deliberately chosen typography, minimal clutter, easier access to footnotes, etc. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_Eliensis And the design community is taking notice: https://news.layervault.com/stories/31897-wikipedia-already-looks-great--just-add-m-on-desktop -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps regarding WMF-community disputes about deployments
On 27 August 2014 05:16, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: And the design community is taking notice: https://news.layervault.com/stories/31897-wikipedia-already-looks-great--just-add-m-on-desktop We already know the design community doesn't like the edit button. Was there any reason you thought we should pay attention to their opinion? -- geni ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps regarding WMF-community disputes about deployments
On 26 August 2014 09:39, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: First, I think it's worthwhile in these discussions - in a context of a project where consensus is important - to remember that there are actually many different perspectives on Media Viewer in the community. Even in German Wikipedia, 72 community members voted _against_ disabling Media Viewer Hey you are the one currently ignoring 664 German wikipedians. Thats not logically consistent with objecting to people ignoring smaller numbers. (more in absolute terms, incidentally, than voted for disabling it on English Wikipedia's RFC). You want en to stick a link in sitenotice and up the numbers? -- geni ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
