Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-31 Thread Florence Devouard
On 7/29/13 10:50 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Jan Ainali jan.ain...@wikimedia.se wrote: I have not read the vision statement as it is the production of knowledge that need be availible to every human being, but the consumption. Actually, having co-drafted the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Jul 30, 2013 3:49 AM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: On 07/29/2013 07:00 PM, David Gerard wrote: Are there any wikitext constructions that are actually going to be deprecated? I'm not privy to the architecture decisions, but I'm pretty sure that the absolute worst

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread David Gerard
On 30 July 2013 07:39, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: I can dream up horrors you can't even imagine. Consider a template consisting if two single quotes. For a demonstration, see http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Martijn_Hoekstra/Lovecraftian_horror2 D-: That's like a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread Peter Southwood
Beside being way more effort than it is worth, what is particularly Lovecraftian about that? Cheers, Peter - Original Message - From: Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:39 AM Subject: Re:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Jul 30, 2013 4:58 AM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: On 07/29/2013 10:02 PM, Rschen7754 wrote: If I'm reading this right, it *would* cause massive problems on the English Wikipedia Oh, it *would* if the syntax was just disabled outright! Now, if it were me that was in charge

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: Beside being way more effort than it is worth, what is particularly Lovecraftian about that? Cheers, Peter What's bad about it, is that the meaning of the transcluded content changes radically on the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread Brandon Harris
On Jul 29, 2013, at 11:39 PM, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: I can dream up horrors you can't even imagine. Consider a template consisting if two single quotes. For a demonstration, see http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Martijn_Hoekstra/Lovecraftian_horror2 IƤ!

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread Robert Rohde
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 1:06 AM, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: snip 4. Block the creation of new templates with deprecated syntax. Also block saving templates that were free of deprecated syntax would an edit introduce deprecated syntax. snip Strictly speaking this is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Robert Rohde raro...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 1:06 AM, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: snip 4. Block the creation of new templates with deprecated syntax. Also block saving templates that were free of deprecated syntax

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread Robert Rohde
When discussing issues like this. One should keep in mind that we don't really want to be in the business of solving hard problems simply by pushing the difficulties onto other people. Wikitext has some characteristics that make parsing it hard (some might say ridiculous). Changing wikitext

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread David Gerard
On 30 July 2013 09:06, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: 6. Announce a date from where on saving a page with a transcluded legacy template will be blocked. Expect public outcry. An important consideration that all developers must keep in mind is that though the current syntax

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Robert Rohde raro...@gmail.com wrote: When discussing issues like this. One should keep in mind that we don't really want to be in the business of solving hard problems simply by pushing the difficulties onto other people. Wikitext has some characteristics

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread Martijn Hoekstra
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 1:01 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 July 2013 09:06, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: 6. Announce a date from where on saving a page with a transcluded legacy template will be blocked. Expect public outcry. An important

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread James Forrester
On 30 July 2013 04:36, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 1:01 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 July 2013 09:06, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: 6. Announce a date from where on saving a page with a transcluded

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread Ziko van Dijk
It's interesting how an essentially social question (being welcoming to new people by a Visual editor) turns quickly into a debate on software. Ziko Ziko van Dijk voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland deputy

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread David Gerard
On 30 July 2013 15:44, Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl wrote: It's interesting how an essentially social question (being welcoming to new people by a Visual editor) turns quickly into a debate on software. .nl has yet to experience the software in question, and the social issues

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread James Forrester
On 30 July 2013 08:02, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 July 2013 15:44, Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl wrote: It's interesting how an essentially social question (being welcoming to new people by a Visual editor) turns quickly into a debate on software. .nl has yet to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-30 Thread Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:18 PM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: On 07/29/2013 11:10 PM, Risker wrote: which are used daily on hundreds of pages, and they serve a very important function. Yeah, but they are duct tape over weaknesses/flaws in wikimarkup, not a valuable feature.

[Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Ziko van Dijk
Dear friends, On German Wikipedia, our dear Superbass has contributed a short opinion piece on the principal resistance against the Visual Editor. I think that it should be withhold from you, and I hope that my translation transfers its wit. Ziko Let us not fool ourselves: The imperfection of the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 07/29/2013 03:30 PM, Ziko van Dijk wrote: On German Wikipedia, our dear Superbass has contributed a short opinion piece on the principal resistance against the Visual Editor. I think that it should be withhold from you, and I hope that my translation transfers its wit. My poor German

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Jan Ainali
2013/7/29 Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org Because if it's the latter, I'm really worried about the health of a community that would actively bemoan greater democratization of a project whose entire /raison d'etre/ was the democratization of knowledge. I have not read the vision statement

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Ziko van Dijk
Don't worry, Marc, Superbass uses irony and is pro VE. Ziko Ziko van Dijk voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland deputy chair Wikimedia Chapters Association Council Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland Postbus 167

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Erik Moeller
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Jan Ainali jan.ain...@wikimedia.se wrote: I have not read the vision statement as it is the production of knowledge that need be availible to every human being, but the consumption. Actually, having co-drafted the Vision Statement (it was drafted at the October

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Michael Snow
On 7/29/2013 1:50 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Jan Ainali jan.ain...@wikimedia.se wrote: I have not read the vision statement as it is the production of knowledge that need be availible to every human being, but the consumption. Actually, having co-drafted the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Jan Ainali
2013/7/29 Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com On 7/29/2013 1:50 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Jan Ainali jan.ain...@wikimedia.se wrote: I have not read the vision statement as it is the production of knowledge that need be availible to every human being, but the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Michael Snow
On 7/29/2013 2:44 PM, Jan Ainali wrote: 2013/7/29 Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com On 7/29/2013 1:50 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Jan Ainali jan.ain...@wikimedia.se wrote: I have not read the vision statement as it is the production of knowledge that need be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 07/29/2013 06:00 PM, Michael Snow wrote: achieving the sum of all human knowledge requires all humans to collaborate in it +1 This is particularly important as the quality of coverage decreases sharply as you stray further from the interests that coincide with the profile of current editors

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread David Gerard
On 29 July 2013 23:41, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: Nostalgia for the good old days of hand-spun wikitables with baroque hacked together syntax notwithstanding. MediaWiki wikitext should indeed be set on fire and put in a bin and fired into the sun, with any other horrible and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 07/29/2013 07:00 PM, David Gerard wrote: Are there any wikitext constructions that are actually going to be deprecated? I'm not privy to the architecture decisions, but I'm pretty sure that the absolute worst monstrosity is the possibility of opening markup in a (possibly deeply recursive

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Rschen7754
If I'm reading this right, it *would* cause massive problems on the English Wikipedia, with templates like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:S-start and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:S-end (170,303 transclusions). Thanks, Rschen7754 rschen7754.w...@gmail.com On Jul 29, 2013,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Erik Moeller
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:00 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: Are there any wikitext constructions that are actually going to be deprecated? We don't know yet. We try to support almost everything. In addition to the unbalanced templates that Marc mentions, there are templates that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 07/29/2013 10:02 PM, Rschen7754 wrote: If I'm reading this right, it *would* cause massive problems on the English Wikipedia Oh, it *would* if the syntax was just disabled outright! Now, if it were me that was in charge of fixing wiki markup, this is what I would do: (a) require that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Risker
Well, all I know is that we have a couple million instances of {{hat}} and {{hab}} unbalanced templates, which are used daily on hundreds of pages, and they serve a very important function. Risker On 29 July 2013 22:58, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: On 07/29/2013 10:02 PM,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 07/29/2013 11:10 PM, Risker wrote: which are used daily on hundreds of pages, and they serve a very important function. Yeah, but they are duct tape over weaknesses/flaws in wikimarkup, not a valuable feature. This revolves back to the difficulty in trying to pretend a talk page in

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Risker
On 29 July 2013 23:18, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: On 07/29/2013 11:10 PM, Risker wrote: which are used daily on hundreds of pages, and they serve a very important function. Yeah, but they are duct tape over weaknesses/flaws in wikimarkup, not a valuable feature. This

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread MZMcBride
Marc A. Pelletier wrote: On 07/29/2013 03:30 PM, Ziko van Dijk wrote: On German Wikipedia, our dear Superbass has contributed a short opinion piece on the principal resistance against the Visual Editor. I think that it should be withhold from you, and I hope that my translation transfers its

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

2013-07-29 Thread Rschen7754
But is subst:ing the code and then deleting the template the right solution for a template that is transcluded over 170,000 times? Overall, I find solutions to such problems that require extensive volunteer manpower to implement and remove functionality from the editor to be quite problematic.