Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[Oliver Keyes]

(personal capacity)

Also, how would this be *done*? I mean, our current interaction with
Facebook, to my knowledge, consists of "they retrieve our data". They're
free to do so; it's CC-BY-SA. The only realistic way of restricting them
would have pretty serious implications for other reusers.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[JP Béland]

"Wikimedia should stay far away from this crowd and its "initiatives". Maybe
in the future we should even get more distance between them (Facebook,
Google, etc.) and us."

And how that would bring us closer to our vision to have all humans
have access to knowledge?

JP Béland

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[Leinonen Teemu]

Hei, 

I kind of sympathize with Jens' points. Mr. Zuckerberg, and especially Facebook 
as a business, are not necessary in a perfect synchrony with the mission and 
vision of the Wikimedia / Wikipedia movement. Even if this is the case we may 
ask does it still make sense for us to collaborate with their initiative? Would 
it advantage our very own mission and vision?

I also think that we are all people, also Mr. Zuckerberg, and people have 
different sides. I interpret that in the internet.org a group of *people*, 
working for big corporations, have seen a possibility to do something *good* 
that is same time in the interests of their businesses. I think we often forget 
that also in big corporation there are people, individuals who do choices. I do 
not see in here any hidden agendas or wrong doing. I see people trying to do 
something good.

Like GerardM pointed out, the internet.org may help us to get knowledge for 
people who otherwise would not have access to the Wikipedia. I do not see that 
this would move us somehow to the "dark side", especially when the *people* in 
the internet.org are not necessary evil. 

With the fact that the Wikimedia foundation is financially sustainable, we also 
have a great position to negotiate with the internet.org people. I actually 
think that they need more Wikimedia / Wikipedia than we need them. Still, I 
think collaboration with them could advance our mission.

Best regards, 

- Teemu

On 27.8.2013, at 9.32, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:

> Hoi,
> Jens, I am sorry there is nothing in what you say that has a bearing on
> what the aim is of the Wikimedia Foundation. Our aim is to get
> information/knowledge to every person in the world. The people that may be
> reached by this initiative are the ones we do not reach.
> 
> When we can reach them through something like a Wikipedia ZERO approach,
> this would be awesome never mind if Facebook et al make money out of it.
> The NSA et al have a reach that includes us all. Nothing is likely to
> change at that. It is however beside the point. The point is that we may
> reach more people and consequently do a better job at what our aim is.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
> 
> 
> On 26 August 2013 23:58, Jens Best  wrote:
> 
>> The internet Mr. Zuggerberg wants was nothing to do with the ideas of free
>> knowledge, online collaboration and open source as it is provided and
>> promoted by Wikimedia.
>> 
>> Don't believe the Hype. Even and especially if it is Hype 2.0.
>> 
>> Just because the Silicon Valley billionaires got caught with sleeping with
>> the NSA suddenly they push an "open internet for the world"-Idea to
>> distract everybody from the dark roots.
>> 
>> Wikimedia should stay far away from this crowd and its "initiatives". Maybe
>> in the future we should even get more distance between them (Facebook,
>> Google, etc.) and us.
>> 
>> Jens
>> 
>> 2013/8/26 Gerard Meijssen 
>> 
>>> Hoi,
>>> For your information ... an interview with Mr Zuggerberg... In my opinion
>>> there is an opportunity as he is looking for dense information.. we are
>>> really good at that :)
>>> Thanks,
>>> Gerard
>>> 
>>> http://www.wired.com/business/2013/08/mark-zuckerberg-internet-org/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 23 August 2013 14:38, Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada >>> wrote:
>>> 
 Looks like NSA has bought some new hard drives and needs moar data.
 
 
 2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen 
 
> Hoi,
> But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to
>> be
 seen
> by many more people, they do us a service.
> 
> In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first
>> of
 all
> about getting the knowledge out there.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
> 
> 
> On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best  wrote:
> 
>> Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel,
 they
>> don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So,
> actually,
>> Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make
>> their
 next
>> moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and
>> with
> whom
>> they really cooperate.
>> 
>> It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web
 between
>> Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they
>> speak
>>> of
>> freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just
>> because
> they
>> use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
>> 
>> Jens
>> 
>> 2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart 
>> 
>>> Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
 I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold
>>> for
> now.
 Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how
 would
 internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and
>> effort
 to
> be
 involved?
>>> 
>>> If what I fear becomes real, th

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Jens, I am sorry there is nothing in what you say that has a bearing on
what the aim is of the Wikimedia Foundation. Our aim is to get
information/knowledge to every person in the world. The people that may be
reached by this initiative are the ones we do not reach.

When we can reach them through something like a Wikipedia ZERO approach,
this would be awesome never mind if Facebook et al make money out of it.
The NSA et al have a reach that includes us all. Nothing is likely to
change at that. It is however beside the point. The point is that we may
reach more people and consequently do a better job at what our aim is.
Thanks,
 GerardM


On 26 August 2013 23:58, Jens Best  wrote:

> The internet Mr. Zuggerberg wants was nothing to do with the ideas of free
> knowledge, online collaboration and open source as it is provided and
> promoted by Wikimedia.
>
> Don't believe the Hype. Even and especially if it is Hype 2.0.
>
> Just because the Silicon Valley billionaires got caught with sleeping with
> the NSA suddenly they push an "open internet for the world"-Idea to
> distract everybody from the dark roots.
>
> Wikimedia should stay far away from this crowd and its "initiatives". Maybe
> in the future we should even get more distance between them (Facebook,
> Google, etc.) and us.
>
> Jens
>
> 2013/8/26 Gerard Meijssen 
>
> > Hoi,
> > For your information ... an interview with Mr Zuggerberg... In my opinion
> > there is an opportunity as he is looking for dense information.. we are
> > really good at that :)
> > Thanks,
> >  Gerard
> >
> > http://www.wired.com/business/2013/08/mark-zuckerberg-internet-org/
> >
> >
> > On 23 August 2013 14:38, Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada  > >wrote:
> >
> > > Looks like NSA has bought some new hard drives and needs moar data.
> > >
> > >
> > > 2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen 
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to
> be
> > > seen
> > > > by many more people, they do us a service.
> > > >
> > > > In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first
> of
> > > all
> > > > about getting the knowledge out there.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >   GerardM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel,
> > > they
> > > > > don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So,
> > > > actually,
> > > > > Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make
> their
> > > next
> > > > > moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and
> with
> > > > whom
> > > > > they really cooperate.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web
> > > between
> > > > > Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they
> speak
> > of
> > > > > freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just
> because
> > > > they
> > > > > use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jens
> > > > >
> > > > > 2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart 
> > > > >
> > > > > > Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
> > > > > > > I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold
> > for
> > > > now.
> > > > > > > Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how
> > > would
> > > > > > > internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and
> effort
> > > to
> > > > be
> > > > > > > involved?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our
> movement
> > > > joins
> > > > > > such a dishonest project.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and
> > > adapt
> > > > > > their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a
> > > > dilemma.
> > > > > > A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content
> (tactical
> > > > move)
> > > > > > and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet
> > > > > > (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already
> have
> > > done
> > > > > > it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic
> in
> > > such
> > > > > > situations ;)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If they really want to help to give a neutral access to
> internet...
> > > > then
> > > > > > this is really a dream we should be part of!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But, this is all about speculations...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my
> > > > hears.
> > > > > > But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete
> > projects.
> > > > > > That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction
> > > they
> > > > > > will make the next moves.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Emmanuel
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> > > > > > * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> > > > > > * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> > > > > > * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
> > > > >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[Jens Best]

The internet Mr. Zuggerberg wants was nothing to do with the ideas of free
knowledge, online collaboration and open source as it is provided and
promoted by Wikimedia.

Don't believe the Hype. Even and especially if it is Hype 2.0.

Just because the Silicon Valley billionaires got caught with sleeping with
the NSA suddenly they push an "open internet for the world"-Idea to
distract everybody from the dark roots.

Wikimedia should stay far away from this crowd and its "initiatives". Maybe
in the future we should even get more distance between them (Facebook,
Google, etc.) and us.

Jens

2013/8/26 Gerard Meijssen 

> Hoi,
> For your information ... an interview with Mr Zuggerberg... In my opinion
> there is an opportunity as he is looking for dense information.. we are
> really good at that :)
> Thanks,
>  Gerard
>
> http://www.wired.com/business/2013/08/mark-zuckerberg-internet-org/
>
>
> On 23 August 2013 14:38, Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada  >wrote:
>
> > Looks like NSA has bought some new hard drives and needs moar data.
> >
> >
> > 2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen 
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be
> > seen
> > > by many more people, they do us a service.
> > >
> > > In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first of
> > all
> > > about getting the knowledge out there.
> > > Thanks,
> > >   GerardM
> > >
> > >
> > > On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel,
> > they
> > > > don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So,
> > > actually,
> > > > Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their
> > next
> > > > moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with
> > > whom
> > > > they really cooperate.
> > > >
> > > > It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web
> > between
> > > > Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak
> of
> > > > freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because
> > > they
> > > > use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
> > > >
> > > > Jens
> > > >
> > > > 2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart 
> > > >
> > > > > Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
> > > > > > I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold
> for
> > > now.
> > > > > > Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how
> > would
> > > > > > internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort
> > to
> > > be
> > > > > > involved?
> > > > >
> > > > > If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement
> > > joins
> > > > > such a dishonest project.
> > > > >
> > > > > If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and
> > adapt
> > > > > their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a
> > > dilemma.
> > > > > A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical
> > > move)
> > > > > and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet
> > > > > (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have
> > done
> > > > > it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in
> > such
> > > > > situations ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet...
> > > then
> > > > > this is really a dream we should be part of!
> > > > >
> > > > > But, this is all about speculations...
> > > > >
> > > > > I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my
> > > hears.
> > > > > But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete
> projects.
> > > > > That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction
> > they
> > > > > will make the next moves.
> > > > >
> > > > > Emmanuel
> > > > > --
> > > > > Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> > > > > * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> > > > > * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> > > > > * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
> > > > >
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >  ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > --
> > > > Jens Best
> > > > Präsidium
> > > > Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> > > > web: http://www.wikimedia.de
> > > > mail: jens.best @wikimedia.de
> > > >
> > > > Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> e.V.
> > > > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> > > > Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
> > > > anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
> > > > Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > > Wikimedia-l@li

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[Ziko van Dijk]

Hear, hear.
Ziko

2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen 

> Hoi,
> But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be seen
> by many more people, they do us a service.
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
For your information ... an interview with Mr Zuggerberg... In my opinion
there is an opportunity as he is looking for dense information.. we are
really good at that :)
Thanks,
 Gerard

http://www.wired.com/business/2013/08/mark-zuckerberg-internet-org/


On 23 August 2013 14:38, Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada wrote:

> Looks like NSA has bought some new hard drives and needs moar data.
>
>
> 2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen 
>
> > Hoi,
> > But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be
> seen
> > by many more people, they do us a service.
> >
> > In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first of
> all
> > about getting the knowledge out there.
> > Thanks,
> >   GerardM
> >
> >
> > On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best  wrote:
> >
> > > Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel,
> they
> > > don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So,
> > actually,
> > > Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their
> next
> > > moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with
> > whom
> > > they really cooperate.
> > >
> > > It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web
> between
> > > Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak of
> > > freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because
> > they
> > > use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
> > >
> > > Jens
> > >
> > > 2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart 
> > >
> > > > Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
> > > > > I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for
> > now.
> > > > > Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how
> would
> > > > > internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort
> to
> > be
> > > > > involved?
> > > >
> > > > If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement
> > joins
> > > > such a dishonest project.
> > > >
> > > > If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and
> adapt
> > > > their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a
> > dilemma.
> > > > A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical
> > move)
> > > > and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet
> > > > (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have
> done
> > > > it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in
> such
> > > > situations ;)
> > > >
> > > > If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet...
> > then
> > > > this is really a dream we should be part of!
> > > >
> > > > But, this is all about speculations...
> > > >
> > > > I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my
> > hears.
> > > > But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects.
> > > > That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction
> they
> > > > will make the next moves.
> > > >
> > > > Emmanuel
> > > > --
> > > > Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> > > > * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> > > > * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> > > > * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > --
> > > Jens Best
> > > Präsidium
> > > Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> > > web: http://www.wikimedia.de
> > > mail: jens.best @wikimedia.de
> > >
> > > Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
> > > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> > > Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
> > > anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
> > > Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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<

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[Emilio J . Rodríguez-Posada]

Looks like NSA has bought some new hard drives and needs moar data.


2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen 

> Hoi,
> But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be seen
> by many more people, they do us a service.
>
> In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first of all
> about getting the knowledge out there.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
>
> On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best  wrote:
>
> > Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel, they
> > don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So,
> actually,
> > Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their next
> > moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with
> whom
> > they really cooperate.
> >
> > It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web between
> > Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak of
> > freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because
> they
> > use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
> >
> > Jens
> >
> > 2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart 
> >
> > > Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
> > > > I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for
> now.
> > > > Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would
> > > > internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to
> be
> > > > involved?
> > >
> > > If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement
> joins
> > > such a dishonest project.
> > >
> > > If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and adapt
> > > their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a
> dilemma.
> > > A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical
> move)
> > > and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet
> > > (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have done
> > > it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in such
> > > situations ;)
> > >
> > > If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet...
> then
> > > this is really a dream we should be part of!
> > >
> > > But, this is all about speculations...
> > >
> > > I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my
> hears.
> > > But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects.
> > > That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction they
> > > will make the next moves.
> > >
> > > Emmanuel
> > > --
> > > Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> > > * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> > > * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> > > * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Jens Best
> > Präsidium
> > Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> > web: http://www.wikimedia.de
> > mail: jens.best @wikimedia.de
> >
> > Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
> > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> > Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
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> > Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
But when they provide the infrastructure that allows our content to be seen
by many more people, they do us a service.

In the end it is what we are about. Last thing I heard we were first of all
about getting the knowledge out there.
Thanks,
  GerardM


On 23 August 2013 12:14, Jens Best  wrote:

> Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel, they
> don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So, actually,
> Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their next
> moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with whom
> they really cooperate.
>
> It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web between
> Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak of
> freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because they
> use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.
>
> Jens
>
> 2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart 
>
> > Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
> > > I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now.
> > > Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would
> > > internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be
> > > involved?
> >
> > If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement joins
> > such a dishonest project.
> >
> > If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and adapt
> > their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a dilemma.
> > A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical move)
> > and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet
> > (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have done
> > it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in such
> > situations ;)
> >
> > If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet... then
> > this is really a dream we should be part of!
> >
> > But, this is all about speculations...
> >
> > I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my hears.
> > But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects.
> > That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction they
> > will make the next moves.
> >
> > Emmanuel
> > --
> > Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> > * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> > * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> > * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
> >
> > ___
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> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Jens Best
> Präsidium
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> web: http://www.wikimedia.de
> mail: jens.best @wikimedia.de
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
> anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
> Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[Jens Best]

Nothing good comes with people like Mark Zuckerberg or Peter Thiel, they
don't share our vision of a *really* free and open internet. So, actually,
Emmanuel, I couldn't care less which direction they gonna make their next
moves. It will all be a disguise of what they really attempt and with whom
they really cooperate.

It's time to realize that there isn't a shared vision of the web between
Silicon Valley and Wikimedia. Their words are empty. When they speak of
freedom, they speak of the freedom of money and control. Just because they
use the word "internet" they don't speak of the same thing we do.

Jens

2013/8/23 Emmanuel Engelhart 

> Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
> > I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now.
> > Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would
> > internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be
> > involved?
>
> If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement joins
> such a dishonest project.
>
> If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and adapt
> their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a dilemma.
> A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical move)
> and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet
> (strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have done
> it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in such
> situations ;)
>
> If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet... then
> this is really a dream we should be part of!
>
> But, this is all about speculations...
>
> I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my hears.
> But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects.
> That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction they
> will make the next moves.
>
> Emmanuel
> --
> Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
>
> ___
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> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>



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Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
web: http://www.wikimedia.de
mail: jens.best @wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[Emmanuel Engelhart]

Le 23/08/2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa a écrit :
> I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now.
> Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would
> internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be
> involved?

If what I fear becomes real, then I would be sad that our movement joins
such a dishonest project.

If they want to give access to a subset of Internet services and adapt
their communication (honesty about the product), then we face a dilemma.
A dilemna between our wish to give access to our content (tactical move)
and the one of having a free, neutral and un-clustered Internet
(strategical view)... Big discussions in view, but we already have done
it with Wikipedia zero and I know the WMF tends to be pragmatic in such
situations ;)

If they really want to help to give a neutral access to internet... then
this is really a dream we should be part of!

But, this is all about speculations...

I just wanted to explain why this launch doesn't sound well to my hears.
But I know nothing about their real intentions and concrete projects.
That's why, it's IMO urgent to wait... and see in which direction they
will make the next moves.

Emmanuel
-- 
Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
* Web: http://www.kiwix.org
* Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
* more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[David Gerard]

On 23 August 2013 10:28, Jens Best  wrote:

> I would suggest to keep distance to this wannabe-NGO which more or less
> only exists to serve the interests of commercial players which mostly do *
> not* stand for a free and open web.
> internet.org is nothing what will serve the ideas and ideals of an internet
> as it is represented also by Wikimedia. Don't believe the hype.


I concur. Dig this:
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/13/08/what-internetorgs-stirring-video-cut-from-the-kennedy-speech-it-quotes/278896/

Whatever these people are doing doesn't actually appear to be much to
do with what we're doing.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[Jens Best]

I would suggest to keep distance to this wannabe-NGO which more or less
only exists to serve the interests of commercial players which mostly do *
not* stand for a free and open web.

internet.org is nothing what will serve the ideas and ideals of an internet
as it is represented also by Wikimedia. Don't believe the hype.

Best regards

Jens Best


2013/8/23 Gerard Meijssen 

> Hoi,
>
> All we need to do is what we already do: make our content available for
> free. When we are really in their face that we bring neutral information to
> everyone, everywhere how and why will they deny us?
>
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
>
> On 23 August 2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa  wrote:
>
> > Emmanuel,
> >
> > I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now.
> > Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would
> > internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be
> > involved?
> >
> > --Kul
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:49 AM, Emmanuel Engelhart  > >wrote:
> >
> > > I'm maybe too pessimistic, but I would be really surprised if this
> > > project, at any time, really helps to provide an access (neutral) to
> the
> > > Internet.
> > >
> > > More probable: They will try to give a free/cheap access to a set of
> > > their online services and so one do the same like AOL or MSN have tried
> > > to do 15 years ago.
> > >
> > > ... or like we do with Wikipedia zero... but, to the contrary to this
> > > alliance, Wikimedia has never claimed that they wanted to give access
> to
> > > the Internet.
> > >
> > > So, IMO, this whole story about internet.org stinks.
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oFXCXQpJXI
> > >
> > > Emmanuel
> > >
> > > Le 23/08/2013 10:25, Leinonen Teemu a écrit :
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Have you noticed the new internet.org initiative by Facebook,
> Samsung,
> > > Nokia, Qualcomm, Ericsson and MediaTek?
> > > >
> > > > "Internet.org is a global partnership between technology leaders,
> > > nonprofits, local communities and experts who are working together to
> > bring
> > > the internet to the two thirds of the world’s population that doesn’t
> > have
> > > it".[1, 2]
> > > >
> > > > Would it make sense for the WMF's Wikipedia Zero program to
> collaborate
> > > with this?
> > > >
> > > > Any comments?
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > >   - Teemu
> > > >
> > > > [1] http://www.internet.org
> > > > [2]
> > >
> >
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/technology/facebook-leads-an-effort-to-lower-barriers-to-internet-access.html
> > >
> > > --
> > > Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> > > * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> > > * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> > > * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Kul Wadhwa
> > Head of Mobile
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
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--
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Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
web: http://www.wikimedia.de
mail: jens.best @wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
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Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,

All we need to do is what we already do: make our content available for
free. When we are really in their face that we bring neutral information to
everyone, everywhere how and why will they deny us?

Thanks,
  GerardM


On 23 August 2013 10:59, Kul Wadhwa  wrote:

> Emmanuel,
>
> I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now.
> Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would
> internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be
> involved?
>
> --Kul
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:49 AM, Emmanuel Engelhart  >wrote:
>
> > I'm maybe too pessimistic, but I would be really surprised if this
> > project, at any time, really helps to provide an access (neutral) to the
> > Internet.
> >
> > More probable: They will try to give a free/cheap access to a set of
> > their online services and so one do the same like AOL or MSN have tried
> > to do 15 years ago.
> >
> > ... or like we do with Wikipedia zero... but, to the contrary to this
> > alliance, Wikimedia has never claimed that they wanted to give access to
> > the Internet.
> >
> > So, IMO, this whole story about internet.org stinks.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oFXCXQpJXI
> >
> > Emmanuel
> >
> > Le 23/08/2013 10:25, Leinonen Teemu a écrit :
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Have you noticed the new internet.org initiative by Facebook, Samsung,
> > Nokia, Qualcomm, Ericsson and MediaTek?
> > >
> > > "Internet.org is a global partnership between technology leaders,
> > nonprofits, local communities and experts who are working together to
> bring
> > the internet to the two thirds of the world’s population that doesn’t
> have
> > it".[1, 2]
> > >
> > > Would it make sense for the WMF's Wikipedia Zero program to collaborate
> > with this?
> > >
> > > Any comments?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > >   - Teemu
> > >
> > > [1] http://www.internet.org
> > > [2]
> >
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/technology/facebook-leads-an-effort-to-lower-barriers-to-internet-access.html
> >
> > --
> > Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> > * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> > * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> > * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Kul Wadhwa
> Head of Mobile
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[Kul Wadhwa]

Emmanuel,

I have my concerns as well so we're watching how things unfold for now.
Perhaps to add to Teemu's question (If I could be so bold) how would
internet.org need to evolve to make it worth our time and effort to be
involved?

--Kul


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:49 AM, Emmanuel Engelhart wrote:

> I'm maybe too pessimistic, but I would be really surprised if this
> project, at any time, really helps to provide an access (neutral) to the
> Internet.
>
> More probable: They will try to give a free/cheap access to a set of
> their online services and so one do the same like AOL or MSN have tried
> to do 15 years ago.
>
> ... or like we do with Wikipedia zero... but, to the contrary to this
> alliance, Wikimedia has never claimed that they wanted to give access to
> the Internet.
>
> So, IMO, this whole story about internet.org stinks.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oFXCXQpJXI
>
> Emmanuel
>
> Le 23/08/2013 10:25, Leinonen Teemu a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > Have you noticed the new internet.org initiative by Facebook, Samsung,
> Nokia, Qualcomm, Ericsson and MediaTek?
> >
> > "Internet.org is a global partnership between technology leaders,
> nonprofits, local communities and experts who are working together to bring
> the internet to the two thirds of the world’s population that doesn’t have
> it".[1, 2]
> >
> > Would it make sense for the WMF's Wikipedia Zero program to collaborate
> with this?
> >
> > Any comments?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >   - Teemu
> >
> > [1] http://www.internet.org
> > [2]
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/technology/facebook-leads-an-effort-to-lower-barriers-to-internet-access.html
>
> --
> Kiwix - Wikipedia Offline & more
> * Web: http://www.kiwix.org
> * Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
> * more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication
>
> ___
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Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet.org and Wikipedia Zero ?

[Emmanuel Engelhart]

I'm maybe too pessimistic, but I would be really surprised if this
project, at any time, really helps to provide an access (neutral) to the
Internet.

More probable: They will try to give a free/cheap access to a set of
their online services and so one do the same like AOL or MSN have tried
to do 15 years ago.

... or like we do with Wikipedia zero... but, to the contrary to this
alliance, Wikimedia has never claimed that they wanted to give access to
the Internet.

So, IMO, this whole story about internet.org stinks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oFXCXQpJXI

Emmanuel

Le 23/08/2013 10:25, Leinonen Teemu a écrit :
> Hi, 
> 
> Have you noticed the new internet.org initiative by Facebook, Samsung, Nokia, 
> Qualcomm, Ericsson and MediaTek? 
> 
> "Internet.org is a global partnership between technology leaders, nonprofits, 
> local communities and experts who are working together to bring the internet 
> to the two thirds of the world’s population that doesn’t have it".[1, 2] 
> 
> Would it make sense for the WMF's Wikipedia Zero program to collaborate with 
> this? 
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> Best regards, 
> 
>   - Teemu 
> 
> [1] http://www.internet.org
> [2] 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/technology/facebook-leads-an-effort-to-lower-barriers-to-internet-access.html

-- 
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* Web: http://www.kiwix.org
* Twitter: https://twitter.com/KiwixOffline
* more: http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Communication

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