Erik,
I don't agree with everything you're saying here, but I for one appreciate
the candour and openness you're displaying in this discussion, not to
mention a willingness to act on ideas from the community. You've already
implemented what my suggestion was going to be (sticking the word "Beta"
On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Kevin Wayne Williams
wrote:
> The editor was able to change a 4 to a 5 in an existing table, that's true.
> Could that editor add a row? No. Add a column? No. Delete a row or a column?
> No. Are all of those operations part of the bare minimum feature set for
> "tab
Op 2013/08/01 0:00, Erik Moeller schreef:
It's the constant minimization of issues that's the most annoying, Erik.
Reading through your response, you'd think that I was some kind of picky
person with irrationally high expectations. Nothing could be further
from the truth.
If you had followed t
If we are going to discuss Minimal Viable Product, then we might want
to take note of the line in the Wikipedia article that says:
"The product is typically deployed to a subset of possible customers,
such as early adopters that are thought to be more forgiving, more
likely to give feedback, and a
Hey Kevin,
contrary to your belief (and in spite of your desire to blame me ;-),
I actually have a ton of respect for the opinions you've expressed
throughout the process, and for the level of detail and time you've
committed to it, including helping in a hands-on manner. I don't agree
with you on
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Kevin Wayne Williams <
kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com> wrote:
> If you had followed that, and understood that the Minimum Viable Product
> included cut-and-paste, table editing, and maybe the ability to
> successfully and completely edit the hundred or so most edited a
Op 2013/07/31 21:58, Erik Moeller schreef:
There's a reason every start-up on the planet follows the idea of the
Minimum Viable Product like a religion.
If you had followed that, and understood that the Minimum Viable Product
included cut-and-paste, table editing, and maybe the ability to
succe
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
> I mean, look at how Jimbo sold the VisualEditor to the press at the start
> of the roll-out:
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/10196578/Wikipedia-introduces-new-features-to-entice-editors.html
>
> ---o0o---
>
> “VisualEdito
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:28 PM, David Gerard wrote:
> On 31 July 2013 19:27, Erik Moeller wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:36 AM, David Gerard wrote:
>
> >> Erik, James - how did de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't?
>
> > I don't really agree with your framing - it's not about who's
> >
On 31 July 2013 19:27, Erik Moeller wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:36 AM, David Gerard wrote:
>> Erik, James - how did de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't?
> I don't really agree with your framing - it's not about who's
> convincing who, but being on a sustainable path to making VisualEdi
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:36 AM, David Gerard wrote:
> Certainly. However, it's the obvious question to ask, and a curious
> question to spend several paragraphs not answering.
>
> Erik, James - how did de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't?
Hi David,
I don't really agree with your framing - it'
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Amir E. Aharoni
wrote:
> God no. The whole idea of VE is to make people NOT have to remember
> CSS class names.
>
> If a template is a very common in a project, it should be a button
> with complete GUI in the VE's toolbar in that project. If a template
> is very
2013/7/31 Brad Jorsch (Anomie) :
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> wrote:
>> Quality like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One thing that I learned
>> today is that the Visual Editor will have functionality that only the more
>> accomplished editors will enter directly or
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Gerard Meijssen
wrote:
> Quality like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One thing that I learned
> today is that the Visual Editor will have functionality that only the more
> accomplished editors will enter directly or they will use templates. With
> VE these
On 31 July 2013 13:32, rupert THURNER wrote:
> Am 31.07.2013 15:07 schrieb "Risker" :
> >
> > On 31 July 2013 08:36, David Gerard wrote:
> >
> > > On 31 July 2013 10:59, rupert THURNER
> wrote:
> > >
> > > >> de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp?
> (I'm
> > > >> aski
Am 31.07.2013 15:07 schrieb "Risker" :
>
> On 31 July 2013 08:36, David Gerard wrote:
>
> > On 31 July 2013 10:59, rupert THURNER wrote:
> >
> > >> de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp?
(I'm
> > >> asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a
>
Hoi,
Quality like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One thing that I learned
today is that the Visual Editor will have functionality that only the more
accomplished editors will enter directly or they will use templates. With
VE these templates are redundant.
From my perspective, the future wi
On 07/31/2013 10:52 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
> I think it would be helpful, if possible, to give some guesstimates of
> this, i.e.: how longer a wait it would cost us to reach some rank of
> quality if the deployment was downscaled; or, what would be the
> "deadline" for feedback on aspects
Erik Moeller, 31/07/2013 07:28:
We can't just work through a
mountain of feedback in a waterfall development model and hope that
all our assumptions about how to fix this or that complex issue will
work out in practice.
+1
Also, such an important feature cannot be based on biased feedback from
On 31 July 2013 08:36, David Gerard wrote:
> On 31 July 2013 10:59, rupert THURNER wrote:
>
> >> de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? (I'm
> >> asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a
> >> subjective one, please explain how de:wp convince
On 31 July 2013 10:59, rupert THURNER wrote:
>> de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? (I'm
>> asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a
>> subjective one, please explain how de:wp convinced you when en:wp
>> hasn't.)
> Hi David, i am editing
Thanks Erik for the helpful attitude.
Out of curiosity (not sure if this was discussed in more detail before -
apologies for that), is it indeed true that Visual Editor is significantly
slower than the regular editor (it feels like that to me, but might be my
computer playing tricks on me), and is
Am 30.07.2013 20:14 schrieb "David Gerard" :
>
> On 30 July 2013 17:03, Erik Moeller wrote:
>
> >If the overwhelming community sentiment
> > is that the cost of continuous improvement with a large scale user
> > base is larger than the benefit (as it was on dewiki), we'll switch
> > back (or to a
On 31 July 2013 06:28, Erik Moeller wrote:
Thanks. So, how did de:wp convince you when en:wp didn't? I notice you
didn't address that point at all.
- d.
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On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:13 AM, David Gerard wrote:
> de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? (I'm
> asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a
> subjective one, please explain how de:wp convinced you when en:wp
> hasn't.)
Hey David,
to me,
It is absolutely true that the power users can't directly speak for
the new users or anons.
That said, it would be unusual (though not impossible) if 85% of one
group held an opinion without a large fraction of other related
communities also sharing that view. If the WMF or someone else wants
to
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 2:27 PM, David Gerard wrote:
> OK - so why were those people listened to on de:wp? What happened
> there that they convinced you?
>
If you're replying to me... this is why I said I wasn't speaking for the VE
team. I didn't make that call. :)
Steven
__
On 30 July 2013 22:27, David Gerard wrote:
> On 30 July 2013 21:47, Steven Walling wrote:
>> Why should a consensus of any arbitrary number of power editors be allowed
>> to define the defaults for all editors, including anonymous and
> OK - so why were those people listened to on de:wp? What h
Dear Steven, I think I understand what you mean, and I am concerned about a
certain conservatism among the editors, too. Some editors complain all the
time anyway. But when 87% reject such a software feature I suppose they
cannot be all wrong (by the way, I am one of this huge majority). There are
On 30 July 2013 21:47, Steven Walling wrote:
> Why should a consensus of any arbitrary number of power editors be allowed
> to define the defaults for all editors, including anonymous and
OK - so why were those people listened to on de:wp? What happened
there that they convinced you?
- d.
__
> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:13 AM, David Gerard wrote:
>
>> de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? (I'm
>> asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a
>> subjective one, please explain how de:wp convinced you when en:wp
>> hasn't.)
>>
>
> [Speak
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:13 AM, David Gerard wrote:
> de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? (I'm
> asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a
> subjective one, please explain how de:wp convinced you when en:wp
> hasn't.)
>
[Speaking persona
On 30 July 2013 14:13, David Gerard wrote:
> On 30 July 2013 17:03, Erik Moeller wrote:
>
> >If the overwhelming community sentiment
> > is that the cost of continuous improvement with a large scale user
> > base is larger than the benefit (as it was on dewiki), we'll switch
> > back (or to a co
On 30 July 2013 17:03, Erik Moeller wrote:
>If the overwhelming community sentiment
> is that the cost of continuous improvement with a large scale user
> base is larger than the benefit (as it was on dewiki), we'll switch
> back (or to a compromise), and use a more rigid set of acceptance
> crit
Hey Tomasz,
this is a good way to start a new thread here, so let me respond.
We've done the following with regard to the VE beta so far:
- We've overall slowed down the beta rollout schedule;
- We've excluded nlwiki from the phase 2 beta rollout;
- We've switched dewiki back to opt-in;
- We've o
I don't speak German, but with the aid of Google Translate, I think
one can get a decent gist of the results.
Firstly, let me note that this German "Umfragen" process is structured
largely as a vote. Some participants added short explanatory
statements, but it is not a discussion forum so one sh
Can somebody summarize the concerns raised in that RfC?
Best regards,
Bence
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 2:36 AM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski wrote:
> Hi,
> there is a famous quote on courage by Winston Churchill, a British Prime
> Minister, who once wisely said: "Courage is what it takes to stand up and
>
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