Re: [WISPA] Done loving this thread
Business plans based upon credit or federal subsidy seem to be a risky proposition right now. We want nothing to do with USF funds, period. Our business model and expense/debt/overhead is prepared to weather just about anything except federal nastiness. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:09 PM Subject: [WISPA] Done loving this thread True, ATT and the department of defense were best buddies. I remember HVAC systems in the TD-2 microwave systems that kept heaters and airconditioners running all year long so they could simply mix the air to get the temp they wanted. Gold plated system. But it was a good system. Part of the justification for divestiture and deregulation was that the majority of America (using ATT) had bought and paid for the system several times over so it really was a quazi public property. So they did a reverse privatization. And now we all have the system we have. I like it better than back in the old Ma Bell days. If Western Electric didn't make it, you didn't need it. So it got broke up and competition was supposed to flourish etc etc. They are still experimenting. Part of the problem is that the S in USF is still defined as POTS on copper. Our company is personally sponsoring a bill in our legislature that expands that to broadband. Look for an FCC ruling in November that may change the rules for all of us. - Original Message - From: Blake Bowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF I am an avid ATT long lines historian. ATT made lots of federal money. Cost plus. Thats how most of it worked. I own some of the big ATT junctions that included fall out shelters, blast doors, etc, as well as many repeater sites. Those sites were built on tarrifs, that called for their construction in that manner. Cost plus. Where ATT really made their money is buying lots of what went into those sites from their subsidiaries. Cost plus. Don't take your organs to heaven, heaven knows we need them down here! Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. - Original Message - From: jp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF I don't know about local stuff, but what I read about the history of ATT Longlines is that it must have been heavily government funded for federal defense and communications interests. Here is one example http://long-lines.net/places-routes/Lyons_NE/index.html They must have been either richer than the feds or federally funded to be able to build their infrastructure to the high standards needed to survive nuclear war. If you think someone is milking the government a little with a small community homeland security radio project, ATT had the whole milk processing plant metaphorically speaking. If the feds didn't build it, surely they rebuilt it to their standards with fat contracts to a monopoly provider. I have personally built and tested many analog phones for the federal government that sold for $1000 each in some cases; the company I was working for that had this contract had bid against ATT to get it. If the phones cost that much, I can't imagine that the services cost. Now RUS is financing Crossroads, a mostly redundant and unnecesary cellular network meant to benefit the ILECs who are not verizon. On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 10:11:27AM -0600, Chuck McCown wrote: The phone system was not developed by tax dollars. It was developed by guys like Art Brothers who hand built miles of open wire pole lines by himself. He later got loans from the REA (later to become the RUS) to improve his system. A program that serves as a profit center for the us government. You all should be thanking the RUS for making your income tax bill lower through money that flows from that program to the general fund. Do you really think Ma Bell was not profitable and had to be supported by taxes? When I think of blue chip stock, I think of the old ATT. How was the phone system developed by tax dollars? 120 years ago there was a boom in telecommunications with in some cases multiple LECs in the same city. Government regulation stepped in to create the monopoly and to tax it. But they did not build the bell system or any of the independents. - Original Message - From: RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF Chuck, so your definition of a tax is if you are forced to pay? Keeping in mind that the phone system was developed as a public utility by tax dollars that we
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount
There must be some sort of tolerance. Units work between 48 and 55v? Something to that affect. -Cameron -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 4:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount Iirc alvarion vl are 55 vdc Gino -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:42 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount Yes, the first place to start is to determine the Alvarion specs. 1) Max power or amperage draw from the Alvarion VLs, and 2) min and max Voltage tolerance. I don;t have that answer for you. But please share it, when you find out :-) The general rule is, you can make a combine POE system to serve identical distances as standalone POE systems. But you still ahve to do the math for stnadalone POE system. For example, You can take a 48V POE up 500 feet easilly, to deliver JUST POWER. But data will never go that high. If you had to serve height beyond Ethernet POE specs, you'd then need to do the Power extraction up in a NEMA box on the tower. Again, we did not do it with Alvarion, but the way we did it was We took standard standalone POE injectors (ones without integrated PS). Valemount Injectors that are black, square, one led, and sell for about $5-$7. This allowed us to have circuit board connecting both Ether jacks for reliability. These models allowed a wiretie to fit between the PS jack and the CAT5 plug, so it could be asilly secured and easilly individually untied in the field. We put one extra one inline for hot spare. Now, we were doing 24v, so You need to confirm the injectors that you selected allowed voltage level for Alvarion. I know the little white half moons, can do 48V no problem. If the standard 802.11 pin-out isn;t what Alvarion uses, then compensate with the pin-out of the Plug crimping on. We then laid them side by side mounted flat to a plywood strip. We actually just screwed the Strip to the rack, because we cut it to reach 19 rack. It could also be glued to a Nema Box back, with construction plywood roof glue. We cut the height of the strip about 6 inches, so we had 2 inched on top and bottom to Staple patch cable in place, with it still having room to unplug. IN one case we used screw in eye hooks, and then just strapped the cable to the eye hook for strain relief. We then took standard two strand wire and soldered the round plugs to them (the kind that the standard POE required). We then took two of those standard screw down DC bus bars (can be ordered from any electrician or electronic store) with like 8-12 screws on thems, and labeled them - and +. Then of course screwed down the wires to them. (Just as easilly we could have soldered the eight wires togeather, so all the cables were like a 8 cable bundled single unit.) We then Used a thicker guage wire, I think it was 16-18 guage and ran that from the Bud Bar to our dedicated power supply. (Many power supply types available). Whether it works is just doing the math of cable Voltage loss, and how much amperage the cable can take. See AWG chart attached. Also see POE calculater at http://www.demarctech.com/techsupport/poecalculate.htm Its importnat to remember that the Voltage loss is different based on the amperage that is occuring at the time, so you don;t want to over power voltage to compensate for the loss, to the extent that an inactive radio would be delviered voltage greater than the radio could accept. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Cameron Kilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount All of your questions Tom are important and have taken those into consideration. Right now, I just want to figure out if anybody has done it and how. We have made a POE system that puts out 48volt and it works on the bench with VL units, but when there is a significant cable run it stops working, I guess the important thing to find out is what is the minimum and maximum voltage that can be sent to a Alvarion VL or B radio? -Cameron -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Randy Cosby Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount I have got to put a plug in for the SuperRMS. We just installed our second unit. Just a great box for doing DC power control (or AC if you want). Pricey, but very flexibile and powerful. Also has temperature, voltage measurent, alarm contact monitoring, USB port with camera drivers, alert and relay scripting, linux shell and on and on http://www.remotemonitoringsystems.ca/rms2/ Tom DeReggi wrote: There are
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount
Yes, the normal float voltage for flooded cell batts is 2.25 VPC. For a 48 Volt battery that is 24 cells x 2.25 = 54 volts. Some folks charge at 55 volts. Then during discharge, some consider 1.8 VPC to be the lower limit. 24 x 1. = 43.2 volts. I personally like 44 volts as the lower limit. So equipment designed to operate from a -48 volt supply is designed to span those limits at a minimum. Most would probably exceed that range by a volt or two on each end. - Original Message - From: Cameron Kilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 6:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount There must be some sort of tolerance. Units work between 48 and 55v? Something to that affect. -Cameron -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 4:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount Iirc alvarion vl are 55 vdc Gino -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:42 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount Yes, the first place to start is to determine the Alvarion specs. 1) Max power or amperage draw from the Alvarion VLs, and 2) min and max Voltage tolerance. I don;t have that answer for you. But please share it, when you find out :-) The general rule is, you can make a combine POE system to serve identical distances as standalone POE systems. But you still ahve to do the math for stnadalone POE system. For example, You can take a 48V POE up 500 feet easilly, to deliver JUST POWER. But data will never go that high. If you had to serve height beyond Ethernet POE specs, you'd then need to do the Power extraction up in a NEMA box on the tower. Again, we did not do it with Alvarion, but the way we did it was We took standard standalone POE injectors (ones without integrated PS). Valemount Injectors that are black, square, one led, and sell for about $5-$7. This allowed us to have circuit board connecting both Ether jacks for reliability. These models allowed a wiretie to fit between the PS jack and the CAT5 plug, so it could be asilly secured and easilly individually untied in the field. We put one extra one inline for hot spare. Now, we were doing 24v, so You need to confirm the injectors that you selected allowed voltage level for Alvarion. I know the little white half moons, can do 48V no problem. If the standard 802.11 pin-out isn;t what Alvarion uses, then compensate with the pin-out of the Plug crimping on. We then laid them side by side mounted flat to a plywood strip. We actually just screwed the Strip to the rack, because we cut it to reach 19 rack. It could also be glued to a Nema Box back, with construction plywood roof glue. We cut the height of the strip about 6 inches, so we had 2 inched on top and bottom to Staple patch cable in place, with it still having room to unplug. IN one case we used screw in eye hooks, and then just strapped the cable to the eye hook for strain relief. We then took standard two strand wire and soldered the round plugs to them (the kind that the standard POE required). We then took two of those standard screw down DC bus bars (can be ordered from any electrician or electronic store) with like 8-12 screws on thems, and labeled them - and +. Then of course screwed down the wires to them. (Just as easilly we could have soldered the eight wires togeather, so all the cables were like a 8 cable bundled single unit.) We then Used a thicker guage wire, I think it was 16-18 guage and ran that from the Bud Bar to our dedicated power supply. (Many power supply types available). Whether it works is just doing the math of cable Voltage loss, and how much amperage the cable can take. See AWG chart attached. Also see POE calculater at http://www.demarctech.com/techsupport/poecalculate.htm Its importnat to remember that the Voltage loss is different based on the amperage that is occuring at the time, so you don;t want to over power voltage to compensate for the loss, to the extent that an inactive radio would be delviered voltage greater than the radio could accept. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Cameron Kilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount All of your questions Tom are important and have taken those into consideration. Right now, I just want to figure out if anybody has done it and how. We have made a POE system that puts out 48volt and it works on the bench with VL units, but when there is a significant cable run it stops working, I guess the important thing to find out is what is
Re: [WISPA] OT: For the phone guys.
Check with your state PUC. Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:15 AM Subject: [WISPA] OT: For the phone guys. We started out as a dial-up ISP and still have some dial-up customers. My question: is it right for a telco to charge termination fees on truck side channelized T1's? These are not PRI's. I have saw termination fees on data lines, but not on channelized. This one telco in particular charges me $212/mth just for termination fees. The telco in the next county over does not charge me this, nor do a couple of other telcos that I priced with that are surrounding this one telco. I have complained but it has not done any good. Just want to know if I am getting screwed or not, lol. Scottie Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Alianza Press Release
http://www.wispa.org/?p=286 Rick Harnish General Manager - Midwest Region Great American Broadband 260-827-2482 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] ISPs in US
Mario Pommier wrote: It's an interesting objective, actually. Here's the scenario. I'm looking for the number of ISPs in the US (small to medium ISPs, not Verizon and Time Warner and the like) who have 50 or more business customers. Maybe this kind of definition helps. Wisps, cable, dsl are all good. Any ISP who offers services to businesses. Honestly, that doesn't really narrow it down much - that would eliminate the very smallest outfits, but that's it. Again, what are you actually looking to do with the number once you have it? With that, we may be able to find an alternate source of information that will help you accomplish, um, whatever you're trying to accomplish. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] ISPs in US
It's an interesting objective, actually. Here's the scenario. I'm looking for the number of ISPs in the US (small to medium ISPs, not Verizon and Time Warner and the like) who have 50 or more business customers. Maybe this kind of definition helps. Wisps, cable, dsl are all good. Any ISP who offers services to businesses. Mario David E. Smith wrote: Tom DeReggi wrote: There had been numerous counts in excess of 7000, and some counts as high as 10,000. That was before we were counting WISPs. I have no idea where this is recorded factually. Heck, before you can even count ISPs you have to define ISP. Depending on how picky you want to get, folks using services like Speakeasy's Netshare (basically, you get service from Speakeasy, resell it, they do the billing, you do the tech support) might be considered as people operating an ISP. WISPs? Cable? DSL? Dial-up? It just gets more confusing from there. Anybody have a ballpark number for the amount if ISP's in the United States? Or a site I can go find this out? Thanks. What are you hoping to do with the information? If we can narrow the question down a bit, maybe we can find a better way to answer it. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alianza Press Release
Uh oh, looks like Alianza is on the up and up too... What is DBC up to now? 20,000 subs or so? On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Rick Harnish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.wispa.org/?p=286 Rick Harnish General Manager - Midwest Region Great American Broadband 260-827-2482 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- John M. McDowell Boonlink Communications 307 Grand Ave NW Fort Payne, AL 35967 256.844.9932 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.boonlink.com This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy, re-transmit, or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received the message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and delete the message. E-mail communication is highly susceptible to spoofing, spamming, and other tampering, some of which may be harmful to your computer. If you are concerned about the authenticity of the message or the source, please contact the sender directly. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] MT DOMs
Hey Travis, Did you get one of these in and try it yet? Thanks, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:40 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT DOMs Yes. Thanks. I found another unit, but it was more expensive for smaller size. Travis Microserv Brad Belton wrote: http://www.memory.com/item.asp?item=TS1GSDOM22V This is what you're looking for, right? Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 9:30 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT DOMs I did a search for sata dom and found one or two. They are out there, but I haven't purchased yet. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:03 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] MT DOMs Hi, We have used a lot of the PQI DOM (Disk on Module) units for our Mikrotik installations in x86 systems. However, some of the newer systemboards don't even have IDE on them, only SATA. Does anyone know a good source for the same type of module, but in a SATA form factor? thanks, Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF!!!!
Yikes! No fun. - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF I'll put it this way, at one telco I know, a disgruntled accountant called the State AG office and made a claim of cross subsidizes. The financial crimes division threw the general manager up against the wall in front of his board of directors and hand cuffed him and hauled him away. 2 years later the investigation was done and nothing was amiss. Do you think I want to risk doing the perp walk? - Original Message - From: Cliff LeBoeuf [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF Chuck...WE may not cross subsidize, but I bet it would be hard convince all of us that others don't. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF!!!!
Splitting hairs Chuck. If it's government mandated collections it's a tax. If it's government mandated expenditure it's a subsidy. grin I'm not saying it doesn't have it's place. Heck I'd love to get what Century Tel gets out here! If I could find a way to do so I'd do what I could to get in front of that revenue stream. Do you consult on such things? marlon - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:29 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF Hold your horses there Marlon... the government pays... the government pays for USF??? No, it is industry supported. 100% of the revenue comes from telecommunications companies and is returned to telecommunications companies. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:57 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF Just because the government will pay for it in no way makes it a good idea :-). Chuck is good at working the system as it exists for his industry. I can't fault him (too much) for that. I wish I were in a similar situation. My frustration isn't that USF exists as much as it is that USF is being used to give my competitor a government backed competitive advantage. A huge one at that. marlon - Original Message - From: Blake Bowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF Chucks business knowledge has proven to be right on so far, I suspect you don't have a clue about the situation and therefore posted mindless babble Don't take your organs to heaven, heaven knows we need them down here! Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. - Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF If you are running a hundred miles of fiber for 30 people you are not right in the head... Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: It is a cost recovery mechanism. I got audited by USAC this year to prove that the USF we receive is to cover the costs of providing the service. But think how expensive it is to run a hundred miles of fiber and put in a class 5 switch to serve 30 or 50 customers. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF!!!!
Nope, but I know plenty of consultants. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF Splitting hairs Chuck. If it's government mandated collections it's a tax. If it's government mandated expenditure it's a subsidy. grin I'm not saying it doesn't have it's place. Heck I'd love to get what Century Tel gets out here! If I could find a way to do so I'd do what I could to get in front of that revenue stream. Do you consult on such things? marlon - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:29 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF Hold your horses there Marlon... the government pays... the government pays for USF??? No, it is industry supported. 100% of the revenue comes from telecommunications companies and is returned to telecommunications companies. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:57 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF Just because the government will pay for it in no way makes it a good idea :-). Chuck is good at working the system as it exists for his industry. I can't fault him (too much) for that. I wish I were in a similar situation. My frustration isn't that USF exists as much as it is that USF is being used to give my competitor a government backed competitive advantage. A huge one at that. marlon - Original Message - From: Blake Bowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF Chucks business knowledge has proven to be right on so far, I suspect you don't have a clue about the situation and therefore posted mindless babble Don't take your organs to heaven, heaven knows we need them down here! Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. - Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF If you are running a hundred miles of fiber for 30 people you are not right in the head... Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: It is a cost recovery mechanism. I got audited by USAC this year to prove that the USF we receive is to cover the costs of providing the service. But think how expensive it is to run a hundred miles of fiber and put in a class 5 switch to serve 30 or 50 customers. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Done loving this thread
Good point. (Except, as pointed out by others, USF isn't based on credit or federal subsidy, its a program funded by Americans, mandated by the feds). Yes, business models reliant on credit clearly are models in risk in the nearby future. However, I'd argue because of that, that businesses capable of operating on credit today would be wise to utilize that credit option while its here to use. Cash is starting to be a more charished asset in short supply. Who knows how long credit lines will be in tact? I'm aware of numerous companies and individuals that have had $30-40,000 empty credit lines dropped to Zero over night, after the recent Fannie/Freddie bailout fiascos going public. It will be interesting to see how this all effects the financial market, even from just implications of the fear effect. It could go either way. It could make lenders tougher, or it could have lenders looking for more lucrative investments (wireless) other than realestate. Although, it will probably just make lending options tougher, considering the average borrower often relies on real estate to secure its borrowing. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 2:44 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Done loving this thread Business plans based upon credit or federal subsidy seem to be a risky proposition right now. We want nothing to do with USF funds, period. Our business model and expense/debt/overhead is prepared to weather just about anything except federal nastiness. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:09 PM Subject: [WISPA] Done loving this thread True, ATT and the department of defense were best buddies. I remember HVAC systems in the TD-2 microwave systems that kept heaters and airconditioners running all year long so they could simply mix the air to get the temp they wanted. Gold plated system. But it was a good system. Part of the justification for divestiture and deregulation was that the majority of America (using ATT) had bought and paid for the system several times over so it really was a quazi public property. So they did a reverse privatization. And now we all have the system we have. I like it better than back in the old Ma Bell days. If Western Electric didn't make it, you didn't need it. So it got broke up and competition was supposed to flourish etc etc. They are still experimenting. Part of the problem is that the S in USF is still defined as POTS on copper. Our company is personally sponsoring a bill in our legislature that expands that to broadband. Look for an FCC ruling in November that may change the rules for all of us. - Original Message - From: Blake Bowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF I am an avid ATT long lines historian. ATT made lots of federal money. Cost plus. Thats how most of it worked. I own some of the big ATT junctions that included fall out shelters, blast doors, etc, as well as many repeater sites. Those sites were built on tarrifs, that called for their construction in that manner. Cost plus. Where ATT really made their money is buying lots of what went into those sites from their subsidiaries. Cost plus. Don't take your organs to heaven, heaven knows we need them down here! Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. - Original Message - From: jp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF I don't know about local stuff, but what I read about the history of ATT Longlines is that it must have been heavily government funded for federal defense and communications interests. Here is one example http://long-lines.net/places-routes/Lyons_NE/index.html They must have been either richer than the feds or federally funded to be able to build their infrastructure to the high standards needed to survive nuclear war. If you think someone is milking the government a little with a small community homeland security radio project, ATT had the whole milk processing plant metaphorically speaking. If the feds didn't build it, surely they rebuilt it to their standards with fat contracts to a monopoly provider. I have personally built and tested many analog phones for the federal government that sold for $1000 each in some cases; the company I was working for that had this contract had bid against ATT to get it. If the phones cost that much, I can't imagine that the services cost. Now RUS is financing Crossroads, a mostly redundant
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount
Chuck, Interesting info, regarding VPC. As you proved, there is a logic to minimum range should be designed for. But the question is also, what was designed as the Maximum? Many products have fuses that peak at a specific level, to protect from over voltage damage. For example, WRAP boards that blew the fuse at 21volts, or older WAR2 boards blowing with non-regulated 24v supplies, when as much as 29v overvoltage was sent. If Alvarion is powered at 55v as Gino stated, it would be running near the maximum threshold of your minimum spec for 48v. So what is Alvarion's max, before it blows? It could be a factor of what level of surge/fuse protection the combined POE system on the ground needs, to adequately protect the on tower radios. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount Yes, the normal float voltage for flooded cell batts is 2.25 VPC. For a 48 Volt battery that is 24 cells x 2.25 = 54 volts. Some folks charge at 55 volts. Then during discharge, some consider 1.8 VPC to be the lower limit. 24 x 1. = 43.2 volts. I personally like 44 volts as the lower limit. So equipment designed to operate from a -48 volt supply is designed to span those limits at a minimum. Most would probably exceed that range by a volt or two on each end. - Original Message - From: Cameron Kilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 6:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount There must be some sort of tolerance. Units work between 48 and 55v? Something to that affect. -Cameron -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 4:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount Iirc alvarion vl are 55 vdc Gino -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:42 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Rackmount Yes, the first place to start is to determine the Alvarion specs. 1) Max power or amperage draw from the Alvarion VLs, and 2) min and max Voltage tolerance. I don;t have that answer for you. But please share it, when you find out :-) The general rule is, you can make a combine POE system to serve identical distances as standalone POE systems. But you still ahve to do the math for stnadalone POE system. For example, You can take a 48V POE up 500 feet easilly, to deliver JUST POWER. But data will never go that high. If you had to serve height beyond Ethernet POE specs, you'd then need to do the Power extraction up in a NEMA box on the tower. Again, we did not do it with Alvarion, but the way we did it was We took standard standalone POE injectors (ones without integrated PS). Valemount Injectors that are black, square, one led, and sell for about $5-$7. This allowed us to have circuit board connecting both Ether jacks for reliability. These models allowed a wiretie to fit between the PS jack and the CAT5 plug, so it could be asilly secured and easilly individually untied in the field. We put one extra one inline for hot spare. Now, we were doing 24v, so You need to confirm the injectors that you selected allowed voltage level for Alvarion. I know the little white half moons, can do 48V no problem. If the standard 802.11 pin-out isn;t what Alvarion uses, then compensate with the pin-out of the Plug crimping on. We then laid them side by side mounted flat to a plywood strip. We actually just screwed the Strip to the rack, because we cut it to reach 19 rack. It could also be glued to a Nema Box back, with construction plywood roof glue. We cut the height of the strip about 6 inches, so we had 2 inched on top and bottom to Staple patch cable in place, with it still having room to unplug. IN one case we used screw in eye hooks, and then just strapped the cable to the eye hook for strain relief. We then took standard two strand wire and soldered the round plugs to them (the kind that the standard POE required). We then took two of those standard screw down DC bus bars (can be ordered from any electrician or electronic store) with like 8-12 screws on thems, and labeled them - and +. Then of course screwed down the wires to them. (Just as easilly we could have soldered the eight wires togeather, so all the cables were like a 8 cable bundled single unit.) We then Used a thicker guage wire, I think it was 16-18 guage and ran that from the Bud Bar to our dedicated power supply. (Many power supply types available). Whether it works is just doing the math of cable Voltage loss, and how much amperage the cable can
Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF!!!!
Cool. Any of them able to work with a small WISP that has a HUGE coverage zone? Much of which is too expensive to get to at this time Feel free to have a couple call me if they think there is a way to make this fly. I might not like the programs but I'm no fool either :-) Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF Nope, but I know plenty of consultants. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF Splitting hairs Chuck. If it's government mandated collections it's a tax. If it's government mandated expenditure it's a subsidy. grin I'm not saying it doesn't have it's place. Heck I'd love to get what Century Tel gets out here! If I could find a way to do so I'd do what I could to get in front of that revenue stream. Do you consult on such things? marlon - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:29 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF Hold your horses there Marlon... the government pays... the government pays for USF??? No, it is industry supported. 100% of the revenue comes from telecommunications companies and is returned to telecommunications companies. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 8:57 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF Just because the government will pay for it in no way makes it a good idea :-). Chuck is good at working the system as it exists for his industry. I can't fault him (too much) for that. I wish I were in a similar situation. My frustration isn't that USF exists as much as it is that USF is being used to give my competitor a government backed competitive advantage. A huge one at that. marlon - Original Message - From: Blake Bowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF Chucks business knowledge has proven to be right on so far, I suspect you don't have a clue about the situation and therefore posted mindless babble Don't take your organs to heaven, heaven knows we need them down here! Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. - Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] gotta love USF If you are running a hundred miles of fiber for 30 people you are not right in the head... Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: It is a cost recovery mechanism. I got audited by USAC this year to prove that the USF we receive is to cover the costs of providing the service. But think how expensive it is to run a hundred miles of fiber and put in a class 5 switch to serve 30 or 50 customers. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Done loving this thread
It seems like easy math to me, pay a small usf fee for each of your subscribers, do a whole lot of accounting and paper work filing (probably mind boggling), and collect a big chunk of change, paid for by those New York City folks. Isn't that the way it works? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] USF Changes
So it got broke up and competition was supposed to flourish etc etc. They are still experimenting. Part of the problem is that the S in USF is still defined as POTS on copper. Our company is personally sponsoring a bill in our legislature that expands that to broadband. Look for an FCC ruling in November that may change the rules for all of us. Where can we find more info on this? Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] USF Changes
A judge ordered the FCC to issue a decision on the intercarrier compensation reform. Not sure the docket number, but they have to issue something in November. There is a date certain. They can decide to not change anything. Or they can decide to radically reform the whole works. If they do too much you will see ripples throughout the whole telecommunications industry. - Original Message - From: Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 8:20 PM Subject: [WISPA] USF Changes So it got broke up and competition was supposed to flourish etc etc. They are still experimenting. Part of the problem is that the S in USF is still defined as POTS on copper. Our company is personally sponsoring a bill in our legislature that expands that to broadband. Look for an FCC ruling in November that may change the rules for all of us. Where can we find more info on this? Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
