Re: [WISPA] FCC Releases New Rules on 4.9 GHz
Kevin, does this mean we could see increased power in some of our 4.9-5.2 Redline backhauls in the future? On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Kevin Suitor ksui...@redlinecommunications.com wrote: John, a) Primary status assigned for fixed links for both access and backhaul b) Increase of power to Part-15 levels Further changes expected based upon the request for comments: a) coordination rules b) raster / frequency plan allowed Cheers, Kevin -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 12:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Releases New Rules on 4.9 GHz How is this different than what we already had in 4.9 GHz? Thank you, John Scrivner PS. I would watch the presentation if you can forward me a link. On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Kevin Suitor ksui...@redlinecommunications.com wrote: All, Thought this might be of interest since there have been many threads on this in the past months. By the way, Redline offers Part-90 approved AN-80i solutions for this band. If you missed it, we ran a public webinar yesterday on public safety applications. Hit me off-list and I will point you to the archive of the webinar. Best Regards, Kevin Redline Communications Inc. Kevin Suitor Vice President, Marketing Business Development 302 Town Centre Blvd. Markham, ON L3R 0E8 CANADA o: +1 905.948.2299 f: +1 647.723.0451 m: +1 416.508.1252 Skype: ksuitor e-mail: ksui...@redlinecommunications.com Web: www.redlinecommunications.com Advancing Broadband Wireless - Putting WiMAX in Motion P Think green before printing this email WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- John M. McDowell Boonlink Communications 307 Grand Ave NW Fort Payne, AL 35967 256.844.9932 j...@boonlink.com www.boonlink.com This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy, re-transmit, or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received the message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail j...@boonlink.com, and delete the message. E-mail communication is highly susceptible to spoofing, spamming, and other tampering, some of which may be harmful to your computer. If you are concerned about the authenticity of the message or the source, please contact the sender directly. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Releases New Rules on 4.9 GHz
Yes for 4.9 GHz for Public Safety, it means we are now free to change the keying to match the new regulations. It won't affect the 5.2 GHz UNNI power rules with DFSII. Hope this helps. Kevin -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John McDowell Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Releases New Rules on 4.9 GHz Kevin, does this mean we could see increased power in some of our 4.9-5.2 Redline backhauls in the future? On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Kevin Suitor ksui...@redlinecommunications.com wrote: John, a) Primary status assigned for fixed links for both access and backhaul b) Increase of power to Part-15 levels Further changes expected based upon the request for comments: a) coordination rules b) raster / frequency plan allowed Cheers, Kevin -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 12:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Releases New Rules on 4.9 GHz How is this different than what we already had in 4.9 GHz? Thank you, John Scrivner PS. I would watch the presentation if you can forward me a link. On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Kevin Suitor ksui...@redlinecommunications.com wrote: All, Thought this might be of interest since there have been many threads on this in the past months. By the way, Redline offers Part-90 approved AN-80i solutions for this band. If you missed it, we ran a public webinar yesterday on public safety applications. Hit me off-list and I will point you to the archive of the webinar. Best Regards, Kevin Redline Communications Inc. Kevin Suitor Vice President, Marketing Business Development 302 Town Centre Blvd. Markham, ON L3R 0E8 CANADA o: +1 905.948.2299 f: +1 647.723.0451 m: +1 416.508.1252 Skype: ksuitor e-mail: ksui...@redlinecommunications.com Web: www.redlinecommunications.com Advancing Broadband Wireless - Putting WiMAX in Motion P Think green before printing this email WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- John M. McDowell Boonlink Communications 307 Grand Ave NW Fort Payne, AL 35967 256.844.9932 j...@boonlink.com www.boonlink.com This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy, re-transmit, or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received the message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail j...@boonlink.com, and delete the message. E-mail communication is highly susceptible to spoofing, spamming, and other tampering, some of which may be harmful to your computer. If you are concerned about the authenticity of the message or the source, please contact the sender directly. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http
Re: [WISPA] fcc logo
It means that the device has been tested and will not interfere with other electronics with spurious emissions and such. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of jp Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 2:52 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] fcc logo What exactly does the FCC logo (captial F, capital C, lowercase C inside the big C) mean on a piece of electronics? I've got a circuit board here (not a radio, but a networking device) with the FCC logo on it and am wondering how to find out it's certification information if that's important. Does it mean it's been certified and should be able to be found in the FCC equipment authorization search by it's maker's grantee code? Does it mean it meets fcc standards but isn't necessarily filed with the FCC? -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC to put Free Wireless web access on table?
If they pay me enough I'll do it despite objections from the wireless industry and some consumer groups. Nothing like a big middle finger to the WISPs of the USA. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From Wall Street Journal today: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122809560499668087.html ³Outgoing Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin is pushing for action in December on a plan to offer free, pornography-free wireless Internet service to all Americans, despite objections from the wireless industry and some consumer groups.² I know its been knocked down before, but every time it comes up, it sparks conversation. -d WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC to put Free Wireless web access on table?
Who gets what in return? insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:16 AM Subject: [WISPA] FCC to put Free Wireless web access on table? From Wall Street Journal today: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122809560499668087.html ³Outgoing Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin is pushing for action in December on a plan to offer free, pornography-free wireless Internet service to all Americans, despite objections from the wireless industry and some consumer groups.² I know its been knocked down before, but every time it comes up, it sparks conversation. -d WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC to put Free Wireless web access on table?
If Google would start a partnership program where service providers could offer a free Internet service in exchange for a revenue split with Google for ads inserted into web content streams then we would have a viable option for delivering free Internet. Google has the technology to make this work. I know from my experiences with my Google Adsense account for search that Google makes money from ads and is willing to share in that system. All they need to do is offer a network / affiliate arrangement just like the broadcast networks / local affiliates do with television and radio. Internet can work the same way if the planets align properly. I do not mind giving Internet away to everyone as long as we all share in the upside. I have a feeling that greed will kill this idea though. Everybody wants their piece of the pie to be the largest. Until Google understands the amount of time and money required to properly operate a network I fear they will not value our contributions fairly. We are the stepchildren of broadband. I hope we do not all turn into pumpkins at midnight at the Free Internet Ball. Scriv On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:16 AM, Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From Wall Street Journal today: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122809560499668087.html ³Outgoing Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin is pushing for action in December on a plan to offer free, pornography-free wireless Internet service to all Americans, despite objections from the wireless industry and some consumer groups.² I know its been knocked down before, but every time it comes up, it sparks conversation. -d WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC to put Free Wireless web access on table?
FCC chairman Kevin Martin gets a lot of free publicity for a goal that can't be met by an legitimate wireless business. As far as I'm concerned, it's nothing more than blatant political posturing. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who gets what in return? insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:16 AM Subject: [WISPA] FCC to put Free Wireless web access on table? From Wall Street Journal today: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122809560499668087.html ³Outgoing Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin is pushing for action in December on a plan to offer free, pornography-free wireless Internet service to all Americans, despite objections from the wireless industry and some consumer groups.² I know its been knocked down before, but every time it comes up, it sparks conversation. -d WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs WISPs - Do you know where your customers are? For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC to put Free Wireless web access on table?
100% political pandering. Let's continue work on getting Internet of any sort to all of America, first. That's not gonna happen for free. On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 12:20:44PM -0500, Josh Luthman wrote: If they pay me enough I'll do it despite objections from the wireless industry and some consumer groups. Nothing like a big middle finger to the WISPs of the USA. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Drew Lentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From Wall Street Journal today: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122809560499668087.html ³Outgoing Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin is pushing for action in December on a plan to offer free, pornography-free wireless Internet service to all Americans, despite objections from the wireless industry and some consumer groups.² I know its been knocked down before, but every time it comes up, it sparks conversation. -d WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC licensing
Travis Johnson wrote: What is the required notification distance on 18ghz licensing? I have a tower with 18ghz links, and just found a new tower that went up about 20 miles away with 18ghz and yet I never received notification. Is there a certain distance that they don't notify? Did you do all the licensing yourself? Most smaller operators tend to just let someone else handle the paperwork; if you go that route, chances are that firm, not you, got any licensing notifications. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC licensing
I have always received notifications via USPS in the past (even just a week ago for another company doing some 18ghz stuff in my area). Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: Travis Johnson wrote: What is the "required" notification distance on 18ghz licensing? I have a tower with 18ghz links, and just found a new tower that went up about 20 miles away with 18ghz and yet I never received notification. Is there a certain distance that they don't notify? Did you do all the licensing yourself? Most smaller operators tend to just let someone else handle the paperwork; if you go that route, chances are that firm, not you, got any licensing notifications. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC licensing
They might not be licensed. Go past the transmitter site, get the gps coordinates and enter them into the FCC search site and see what comes up Wouldn't be the first unlicensed licensed link I have seen -B- Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 14:18:47 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC licensing WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC licensing
Did you confirm whether the user actually licensed their gear that they installed? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC licensing I have always received notifications via USPS in the past (even just a week ago for another company doing some 18ghz stuff in my area). Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: Travis Johnson wrote: What is the required notification distance on 18ghz licensing? I have a tower with 18ghz links, and just found a new tower that went up about 20 miles away with 18ghz and yet I never received notification. Is there a certain distance that they don't notify? Did you do all the licensing yourself? Most smaller operators tend to just let someone else handle the paperwork; if you go that route, chances are that firm, not you, got any licensing notifications. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC licensing
Is there allot of this going on? John Buwa Michiana Wireless - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 6:23:45 PM GMT -05:00 Columbia Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC licensing Did you confirm whether the user actually licensed their gear that they installed? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC licensing I have always received notifications via USPS in the past (even just a week ago for another company doing some 18ghz stuff in my area). Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: Travis Johnson wrote: What is the required notification distance on 18ghz licensing? I have a tower with 18ghz links, and just found a new tower that went up about 20 miles away with 18ghz and yet I never received notification. Is there a certain distance that they don't notify? Did you do all the licensing yourself? Most smaller operators tend to just let someone else handle the paperwork; if you go that route, chances are that firm, not you, got any licensing notifications. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC licensing
I'd argue probably not a lot. (Due to potential fines from the FCC if reported). But I'd argue it would be likely to occur more frequently, now that Licesned equipment has come down so much in price, and becomming more mainstream use, and newbies might feel compelled to perform RD, before putting up the licensing cash. (even though there are experimental licensing options, thats timely). Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC licensing Is there allot of this going on? John Buwa Michiana Wireless - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 6:23:45 PM GMT -05:00 Columbia Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC licensing Did you confirm whether the user actually licensed their gear that they installed? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC licensing I have always received notifications via USPS in the past (even just a week ago for another company doing some 18ghz stuff in my area). Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: Travis Johnson wrote: What is the required notification distance on 18ghz licensing? I have a tower with 18ghz links, and just found a new tower that went up about 20 miles away with 18ghz and yet I never received notification. Is there a certain distance that they don't notify? Did you do all the licensing yourself? Most smaller operators tend to just let someone else handle the paperwork; if you go that route, chances are that firm, not you, got any licensing notifications. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [FCC Committee] Raining on the whitespaces parade
Marlon, Good luck with your individual White Space filing. I urge everyone who believes they have a better, a more constructive or a more practical idea than WISPA's filing to go to the FCC website and make an individual filing with the FCC immediately. Here's the link to file http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/Upload?hot_docket=1009000856|04-186|TV+White+SpacesSend=Continue It's important to file by next Tuesday, October 28th because that's the last day that the FCC is legally allowed to take Comments before they vote at their November 4th meeting. Of course for those of you who believe that the WISPA filing IS good and that it DESERVES your support, you can go to the above link and simply say I am a WISP and I support WISPA's position. It's as easy as that. Thank you. We appreciate everyones help. Jack Unger Chair - WISPA FCC Committee Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, As a member of the FCC committee and a long term DC participant (first went there as a WISP in 2001 or 2002) I feel I have to point out some critical flaws in our proposals. I said much of this at the committee level but to no avail. First, let me say this though. The filing is masterful. It's a GREAT document. My heartburn has nothing to do with the document it's self or the hard work that's gone into it. My heartburn is content based. Well, most of it is anyway. I have a problem with WISPA changing it's stance from unlicensed to licensed lite without having consulted with the membership on this issue. Our last team came back from DC and told us what our new position was. That's NOT what I help found WISPA for. I could have just stayed with a couple of the other associations that I've been a part of and been man handled like that. Lest anyone take this the wrong way, I happen to LIKE the licensed lite concept. I just don't like having a committee that will make a major change without discussion before hand. If there was discussion that said we were going to move from unlicensed to licensed lite and I missed it then I missed it. I know there had been discussion about the idea but nothing voted on by anyone when it came to an official stance. Not the way to run this railroad in my, not so, humble opinion. Now, to the whitespaces issue. I have MAJOR problems with the stance on adjacent channels. We give up 3 for 1 every time a TV channel, or microphone etc. fires up in our area. A TV station goes live and we don't loose the channel that they are on, we loose it and 2 on each side. This means that in any market that has as little as 1/3rd of the channels in use by licensed operators (TV stations AND mics) will be totally useless for us. Why not simply set the out of band emissions standards high enough that we CAN use adjacent channels? I begged for that language, it satisfies both us and the broadcasters. I know it's not technically possible today. So what? Just tonight as I was working on an AP I saw a customer connected at the 18meg speed with a signal level of -96. Who'd have imagined that would be possible just a couple of year ago? Next, I HATE geolocation as the only mechanism. I use circles on a map. I know how inaccurate they really are. They also change dramatically as the technology changes. When I started my WISP in 2000 a 15 mile cell size was the max. And if we got anywhere near 1 meg with a 4 watt EIRP system that also amped the receive signal by 14ish dB we were oh so happy. Now I can go even further than that and get 2 to 3 megs with NO amp and an eirp of 1 watt or so. Same exact CPE units that were in place when we pulled the AP'd ap system out. Actual signal measurement is really the only way to accurately determine interference issues. Well, OK, I guess one could just put a large enough exclusion zone around the broadcasters to make sure that there is no interference. Unfortunately that also means we end up with even less market potential. Here is my idea for whitespaces. This is what I'll be personally filing. I'll fine tune it and likely add some ideas that slip my mind right now. I'm still more than a bit miffed that there wasn't even a vote on our filing (I know I'm whining, but I'm well and truly pissed). Geolocation should be used until such time as a sensing mechanism can be found that will work. Lets be honest here guys. NO one knows IF the FCC will even allow white spaces use let alone with a sensing system. Just how much R and D do you think was put into this project in this economy? Sensing works great on $60 WiFi cards for God's sake! (Listen before talk, CSMAK.) It'll work for TV channels as well. It'll just take a little more time and effort. Set a high standard, one that will protect the licensed users and then let the market go to work on the problem. Once sales opportunities actually exist people will start working on ways to make
Re: [WISPA] [FCC Committee] ****Plea for TV Whitespaces Comments!****
As one of the active FCC committee members doing this work, I would like to point out some important things that have taken place in the last few weeks. The WISPA Licensed-Lite proposal has gained support in full or a large part by the following organizations and brought them to the table to talk with us: MSTV, - They represent ABC (and Disney), CBS, NBC (and General Electric), FOX and PBS. They also represent many of the wireless microphone users. This group has huge influence at the FCC and in congress. FiberTower Sprint T-Mobile Rural Telecommunications Group CompTel The momentum is as high as ever been for our organization. The media is going to start using the buzz word Licensed-Lite. If all WISP's could at least file comments to the FCC that say I am Joe WISP and I support the WISPA Licensed-Lite proposal that would make a big difference. We need to keep the momentum going, numbers and voices count. Not only as an industry organization, but as independent operators. PLEASE FILE COMMENTS WITH THE FCC. Time is running out before the meetings and the commissioners minds get made up. They need time to formulate their own thoughts and position on the topic. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rick Harnish Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 11:32 AM To: 'WISPA General List'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Motorola Canopy User Group' Cc: 'WISPA Board Members List'; 'WISPA's FCC Committee' Subject: [FCC Committee] Plea for TV Whitespaces Comments! Wispa Members and List Users, Yesterday, WISPA filed our Ex Parte Comments for FCC Docket 04-186, Unlicensed Operation in the TV Broadcast Bands Additional Spectrum for unlicensed devices below 900 MHz and in the 3 GHz band. The submission can be found at http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdfid_documen t=6520176838. Please review our comments first. Jack Unger, Steve Coran of Rini/Coran and the entire FCC Committee spent hours lobbying, discussing, researching and writing these comments which encourage unlicensed use of the TV Whitespaces which will be opened up in Feb. 2009 due to the Digital TV transition. We owe all of these people many thanks and it is our responsibility to support their efforts by submitting our support through individual comments. While reviewing the comments on the FCC website this morning, it became apparent to me that there is stiff competition from the AV industry against this proposal. I reviewed nearly 300 comments from people all over the US in opposition to this FCC proposal. I did see several which supported the use of these bands for Wireless Broadband but we are heavily outnumbered. There are currently over 30,000 comments filed under this docket. Others see how important this is, our industry needs to understand it as well. It is my responsibility to all of the WISP operators to encourage each of you to file your comments in full support of the WISPA Ex Parte Comments or at least partial support with clarification if you oppose some part of our comments. I will be filing my comments as soon as I finish this email. This is a huge opportunity for each of us to help educate the FCC commissioners on the importance of opening up this valuable spectrum to unlicensed (light licensed) operation for wireless broadband. You can review all comments at http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/websql/prod/ecfs/comsrch_v2.hts?ws_mode=ret rieve_listid_proceeding=04-186. Please go to http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/Upload?hot_docket=1009000856|04-186|TV+White+S pacesSend=Continue to file your comments today. The deadline is quickly approaching with the FCC Commissioners set to publicize the rules for these bands on November 4th. It is essential that you take 5-10 minutes out of your busy schedule today or tomorrow to write and file your comments. Rick Harnish President WISPA WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Form 477 Reminder
Please define broadband. I am waiting for this very eagerly -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Harnish Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 6:18 PM To: 'WISPA General List'; 'WISPA General List'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] FCC Form 477 Reminder Importance: High This is a reminder that Form 477 filing is due on Sept 2, 2008. The instructions can be found at http://www.fcc.gov/Forms/Form477/477instr.pdf and the form can be downloaded at http://www.fcc.gov/formpage.html. All Broadband providers are mandated by law to fill out this form twice a year. Respectively, Rick Harnish President WISPA WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Form 477 Reminder
http://www.fcc.gov/broadband/broadband_data_faq.html Hope this helps George Jason Hodge wrote: Please define broadband. I am waiting for this very eagerly -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Harnish Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 6:18 PM To: 'WISPA General List'; 'WISPA General List'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] FCC Form 477 Reminder Importance: High This is a reminder that Form 477 filing is due on Sept 2, 2008. The instructions can be found at http://www.fcc.gov/Forms/Form477/477instr.pdf and the form can be downloaded at http://www.fcc.gov/formpage.html. All Broadband providers are mandated by law to fill out this form twice a year. Respectively, Rick Harnish President WISPA WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Form 477 Reminder
Used to be 200 kbps and above. But now everybody has to file. - Original Message - From: Jason Hodge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 1:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Form 477 Reminder Please define broadband. I am waiting for this very eagerly -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Harnish Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 6:18 PM To: 'WISPA General List'; 'WISPA General List'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] FCC Form 477 Reminder Importance: High This is a reminder that Form 477 filing is due on Sept 2, 2008. The instructions can be found at http://www.fcc.gov/Forms/Form477/477instr.pdf and the form can be downloaded at http://www.fcc.gov/formpage.html. All Broadband providers are mandated by law to fill out this form twice a year. Respectively, Rick Harnish President WISPA WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Form 477 Reminder
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: Used to be 200 kbps and above. But now everybody has to file. More specifically, according to the FCC: SNIP A broadband connection is a line (or wireless channel) that terminates at an end-user location and enables the end user to receive information from and/or send information to the Internet at information transfer rates exceeding 200 kilobits per second (kbps) in at least one direction. /SNIP See http://www.fcc.gov/broadband/broadband_data_faq.html for more detail. -- *Butch Evans*Professional Network Consultation * *Network Engineering*MikroTik RouterOS * *573-276-2879 *ImageStream * *http://www.butchevans.com/ *StarOS and MORE * *http://blog.butchevans.com/*Wired or wireless Networks* *Mikrotik Certified Consultant *Professional Technical Trainer* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Form 477 Reminder
Submitted mine yesterday! On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Rick Harnish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is a reminder that Form 477 filing is due on Sept 2, 2008. The instructions can be found at http://www.fcc.gov/Forms/Form477/477instr.pdf and the form can be downloaded at http://www.fcc.gov/formpage.html. All Broadband providers are mandated by law to fill out this form twice a year. Respectively, Rick Harnish President WISPA WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- John M. McDowell Boonlink Communications 307 Grand Ave NW Fort Payne, AL 35967 256.844.9932 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.boonlink.com This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy, re-transmit, or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received the message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and delete the message. E-mail communication is highly susceptible to spoofing, spamming, and other tampering, some of which may be harmful to your computer. If you are concerned about the authenticity of the message or the source, please contact the sender directly. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC geographic search
Normally I give it some lats and longs and a radius and it kickes out all the licenses in that area. I use it to find coordinates of mountain top comm sites. Lately it has been broken. - Original Message - From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 2:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC geographic search Chuck, What exactly are you having problems with? Any FCC ULS searches have been a crap shoot for me. Much of the time I find that for any queries to work well, you need to be as simple as possible. It seems that if you give it more complex conditions to filter down the results, it gets funky if it works at all. Hit me off list and I may be able to help do it outside their web site. I can download their databases and use the GIS tools which is sometimes easier. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:08 PM To: WISPA General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] FCC geographic search Anyone else having trouble using the FCC geographic search feature? I called tech support and they said there were known issues. But nothing further. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC ULC
* Jerry Richardson wrote, On 8/12/2008 11:55 AM: How accurate is the FCC ULC? I am searching by call sign for grandfathered earth stations and all four of the call signs come back not found. It's not in there except a reference to the grandfathered PDF. The International Bureau is where the FSSes are dealt with. Leon Jerry Richardson VP Operations 925-260-4119 P Please consider the environment before printing this email WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC ULC
Thank you __ Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leon D. Zetekoff, NCE Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 8:59 AM To: WISPA General List Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC ULC * Jerry Richardson wrote, On 8/12/2008 11:55 AM: How accurate is the FCC ULC? I am searching by call sign for grandfathered earth stations and all four of the call signs come back not found. It's not in there except a reference to the grandfathered PDF. The International Bureau is where the FSSes are dealt with. Leon Jerry Richardson VP Operations 925-260-4119 P Please consider the environment before printing this email WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC ULC
Jerry Richardson wrote: Thank you Link for the international bureau search page: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/General_Menu_Reports/ -- Charles Wyble (818) 280 - 7059 http://charlesnw.blogspot.com CTO Known Element Enterprises / SoCal WiFI project WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC geographic search
Chuck, What exactly are you having problems with? Any FCC ULS searches have been a crap shoot for me. Much of the time I find that for any queries to work well, you need to be as simple as possible. It seems that if you give it more complex conditions to filter down the results, it gets funky if it works at all. Hit me off list and I may be able to help do it outside their web site. I can download their databases and use the GIS tools which is sometimes easier. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:08 PM To: WISPA General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] FCC geographic search Anyone else having trouble using the FCC geographic search feature? I called tech support and they said there were known issues. But nothing further. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC geographic search
Brian Webster wrote: Chuck, What exactly are you having problems with? Any FCC ULS searches have been a crap shoot for me. Much of the time I find that for any queries to work well, you need to be as simple as possible. It seems that if you give it more complex conditions to filter down the results, it gets funky if it works at all. Hit me off list and I may be able to help do it outside their web site. I can download their databases and use the GIS tools which is sometimes easier. Ah yes. The GIS data sets are awesome. I have been playing around with them. I'll probably be doing some blog posts on the subject soon. I'm thinking of taking LA County base parcel data, then overlaying it with the FCC Antenna Structure Registration data as well as various other FCC data bits, and throwing in economic/population density data and wigle.net data as well. I love getting the data my tax dollars are working so hard to obtain. :) -- Charles Wyble (818) 280 - 7059 http://charlesnw.blogspot.com CTO Known Element Enterprises / SoCal WiFI project WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC geographic search
http://wireless.fcc.gov/uls/index.htm?job=alerts#71 Seems like there is always some sort of technical difficulties there. I enjoy getting pdf reports from ULS that are generated with the following footer: ReportMill Evaluation. Call 214.513.1636 for license :) Brian Webster wrote: Chuck, What exactly are you having problems with? Any FCC ULS searches have been a crap shoot for me. Much of the time I find that for any queries to work well, you need to be as simple as possible. It seems that if you give it more complex conditions to filter down the results, it gets funky if it works at all. Hit me off list and I may be able to help do it outside their web site. I can download their databases and use the GIS tools which is sometimes easier. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:08 PM To: WISPA General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] FCC geographic search Anyone else having trouble using the FCC geographic search feature? I called tech support and they said there were known issues. But nothing further. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Randy Cosby Vice President InfoWest, Inc office: 435-773-6071 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
As an ISP, you have to keep up with the Joneses. The reason why dial-up has died, is because companies began to engineer their web applications for the up to 1 meg service of DSL and cable (20 times faster than dialup). With cable at 15+ megs, DSL available at 10 - 15 megs, and new fiber plants offering 50 megs, even 1 meg service is starting to be the dial-up of today. I would much rather pressure industry to develop faster technologies before I need them than be forced by my customers to get faster equipment when we haven't been pressuring industry. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative WISPs need to be able to deploy 10 megabit plus pipes to the home. No they don't. WISPs need to deploy 10mbps pipes to homes in order to compete equally with Cable Cos and RBOCs. I serve many neighborhoods today, with 900Mhz inteference haven, and they are glad I'm there. 30% of America still does not use broadband. I'm sure they'll be thrilled with their new abilty to ahve always on Email and basic Web just like today's broadband users were 5 years ago. But there are many applications that 20Mhz will solve. I agree, giving an additional 20Mhz will not solve the world's wireless broadband problems, but every bit helps, and 20Mhz helps alot. People's 25 Mhz 3650 now becomes 45Mhz, when they combine 2155 with 3650. Manufactureres need to build multi-band radios, bit that apears to be no problem, based on current tri-band plaus radios on the market today. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative What equipment lets me have 1 GB of throughput on a single site in only 20 MHz of available frequency? WISPs need to be able to deploy 10 megabit plus pipes to the home. A single user then chews up most of your 3.5 or 7 MHz channel. I know physics comes into play. I know government policy comes into play. I know money comes into play. The above is what we should be striving for. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Tony, the average Wisp is NOT a cellular company and cannot invest 50K per AP and 800 per CPE. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike I do not agree with this at all. Most WISP are used to using 20Mhz 802.11 devices which are VERY frequency inefficient. With 20Mhz and a radio designed to make the most use of the spectrum could easily create channels using 3.5Mhz or 7Mhz in size plus channel reuse and polarizations. I could have well over 1Gb per cell site with users in the 2-3000 range. 802.22 is working on a protocol that is perfect for WISP and can make use of any spectrum very efficiently. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Hopefully he's not referring to the 20 MHz they're trying to make for free access there. 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:56 PM Subject: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative http://telephonyonline.com/external.html?q=http://www.pcworld.com/businessce nter/article/147485/fcc_member_lessig_unveil_us_broadband_initiative.html Looks like this could be the start of a good thing. The mention freeing up more spectrum for wireless. Sincerely, Scottie Arnett --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
When will we see your equipment? -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike - You really need to read the full 802.22 spec :) There is A LOT more than just channel bonding that make 802.22 good. - 6Mhz is more than enough for all WISPs needs when it's used correctly, again (I know) not 802.11 - 3.65Mhz is just in the startup Wimax was first to hit the street but this will be changing. So Demarc will have a 3.65Ghz base unit and CPE with our own MAC base on top of the Atheros radio that takes full advantage of the 50Mhz. So the costs for the base and CPE will not be much higher than 2.4Ghz is now :) This also will help 900Mhz. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:19 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative 802.22 sounds good if the channel bonding makes it through to the end and is usable. THAT would be wonderful. If not, 6 MHz isn't going to get us very far in terms of delivering real throughput to any significant number of users. Price always comes into play and if we're looking at $10k APs and $800 CPE like we are for 3.65, again, that won't fly with a typical WISP. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative I clearly understand this, where did you get $50k per AP and $800 per CPE?? Wimax? I would not care if a WISP had the money of a cellular company, these prices would not make scenes in either case. On top of this, cost of the equipment was not the point, but I am fully aware this makes a differences in a WISP business. My point is simply to the quote 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. Which is 100% wrong 20Mhz here and there will make a HUGE difference to WISP as long as you have cost effective equipment to deploy in these frequencies ranges. My prediction is over the next 18-36 months is any WISP that is going to say in the business will start to migrate fully over to 3.65Ghz and depending on what happens with white space, which is the holy grail for WISP if we can get 802.22 as the standard like ATSC is for digital TV, start looking at it for the best WISP solutions for most of the country. Comments Welcome! :) Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 10:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Tony, the average Wisp is NOT a cellular company and cannot invest 50K per AP and 800 per CPE. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike I do not agree with this at all. Most WISP are used to using 20Mhz 802.11 devices which are VERY frequency inefficient. With 20Mhz and a radio designed to make the most use of the spectrum could easily create channels using 3.5Mhz or 7Mhz in size plus channel reuse and polarizations. I could have well over 1Gb per cell site with users in the 2-3000 range. 802.22 is working on a protocol that is perfect for WISP and can make use of any spectrum very efficiently. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Hopefully he's not referring to the 20 MHz they're trying to make for free access there. 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
I couldn't find a page that had this spec spelled out, and I'm sure once I do see it, it'll be way too dry to keep my focus for more than 20 seconds. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike - You really need to read the full 802.22 spec :) There is A LOT more than just channel bonding that make 802.22 good. - 6Mhz is more than enough for all WISPs needs when it's used correctly, again (I know) not 802.11 - 3.65Mhz is just in the startup Wimax was first to hit the street but this will be changing. So Demarc will have a 3.65Ghz base unit and CPE with our own MAC base on top of the Atheros radio that takes full advantage of the 50Mhz. So the costs for the base and CPE will not be much higher than 2.4Ghz is now :) This also will help 900Mhz. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:19 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative 802.22 sounds good if the channel bonding makes it through to the end and is usable. THAT would be wonderful. If not, 6 MHz isn't going to get us very far in terms of delivering real throughput to any significant number of users. Price always comes into play and if we're looking at $10k APs and $800 CPE like we are for 3.65, again, that won't fly with a typical WISP. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative I clearly understand this, where did you get $50k per AP and $800 per CPE?? Wimax? I would not care if a WISP had the money of a cellular company, these prices would not make scenes in either case. On top of this, cost of the equipment was not the point, but I am fully aware this makes a differences in a WISP business. My point is simply to the quote 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. Which is 100% wrong 20Mhz here and there will make a HUGE difference to WISP as long as you have cost effective equipment to deploy in these frequencies ranges. My prediction is over the next 18-36 months is any WISP that is going to say in the business will start to migrate fully over to 3.65Ghz and depending on what happens with white space, which is the holy grail for WISP if we can get 802.22 as the standard like ATSC is for digital TV, start looking at it for the best WISP solutions for most of the country. Comments Welcome! :) Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 10:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Tony, the average Wisp is NOT a cellular company and cannot invest 50K per AP and 800 per CPE. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike I do not agree with this at all. Most WISP are used to using 20Mhz 802.11 devices which are VERY frequency inefficient. With 20Mhz and a radio designed to make the most use of the spectrum could easily create channels using 3.5Mhz or 7Mhz in size plus channel reuse and polarizations. I could have well over 1Gb per cell site with users in the 2-3000 range. 802.22 is working on a protocol that is perfect for WISP and can make use of any spectrum very efficiently. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Hopefully he's not referring to the 20 MHz they're trying to make for free access there. 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
Mike It is a bit too early to say right now, once the MAC is done we will have a better idea. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 8:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative When will we see your equipment? -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike - You really need to read the full 802.22 spec :) There is A LOT more than just channel bonding that make 802.22 good. - 6Mhz is more than enough for all WISPs needs when it's used correctly, again (I know) not 802.11 - 3.65Mhz is just in the startup Wimax was first to hit the street but this will be changing. So Demarc will have a 3.65Ghz base unit and CPE with our own MAC base on top of the Atheros radio that takes full advantage of the 50Mhz. So the costs for the base and CPE will not be much higher than 2.4Ghz is now :) This also will help 900Mhz. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:19 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative 802.22 sounds good if the channel bonding makes it through to the end and is usable. THAT would be wonderful. If not, 6 MHz isn't going to get us very far in terms of delivering real throughput to any significant number of users. Price always comes into play and if we're looking at $10k APs and $800 CPE like we are for 3.65, again, that won't fly with a typical WISP. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative I clearly understand this, where did you get $50k per AP and $800 per CPE?? Wimax? I would not care if a WISP had the money of a cellular company, these prices would not make scenes in either case. On top of this, cost of the equipment was not the point, but I am fully aware this makes a differences in a WISP business. My point is simply to the quote 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. Which is 100% wrong 20Mhz here and there will make a HUGE difference to WISP as long as you have cost effective equipment to deploy in these frequencies ranges. My prediction is over the next 18-36 months is any WISP that is going to say in the business will start to migrate fully over to 3.65Ghz and depending on what happens with white space, which is the holy grail for WISP if we can get 802.22 as the standard like ATSC is for digital TV, start looking at it for the best WISP solutions for most of the country. Comments Welcome! :) Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 10:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Tony, the average Wisp is NOT a cellular company and cannot invest 50K per AP and 800 per CPE. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike I do not agree with this at all. Most WISP are used to using 20Mhz 802.11 devices which are VERY frequency inefficient. With 20Mhz and a radio designed to make the most use of the spectrum could easily create channels using 3.5Mhz or 7Mhz in size plus channel reuse and polarizations. I could have well over 1Gb per cell site with users in the 2-3000 range. 802.22 is working on a protocol that is perfect for WISP and can make use of any spectrum very efficiently. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
Tony, Real throughput requires that much per sector. That is incorrect. It requires that much per sector when the sector is a wide beam PtMP sector, and when there is tons of interference because the band is shared by many. If one provider controls 20Mhz, spectrum reuse can be engineered very easilly. That is the big scare here. If a maga comapny (the only ones largest enough to win Auctions) was to be granted 20Mhz of spectrum for broadband, it will enable a huge amount of services to be offered. A real threat to existing WISPs as far as competition goes. And being forced to give 20% of it away for free is worse. The 20% that they chose to give it to free to, will likely be the person that sends in a competitive bid from you the pre-existing local WISP. If they can't beat you, give it away to put the pressaure on you, after all tehy are just meeting their auction requirements, that they have to do any way. why not kill two birds with one stone. PtMP are not the only applications. A little GPS sync, and many PTP connections can work from a single location, enabling expansion of one's network very easilly. I can see it now... a 4 port starOS box (mesh radio) with 4 PtP stars, each 5 mhz, enabling 10 mbps minimum per sector, more than the typical PtMP sector my network had when it started 6 years ago. Wireless networks aren;t going to stay 100% wireless transport networks. Fiber is going to start to be available at more and more street corners (figure of speach). Start combineing 3650, 2155, 700Mhz, licensed technology, and all togeather bit by bit, it grows to be a large amount. I'd kill to get 20Mhz more spectrum at some of my cell sites. I ahve cell sites where 5.8Ghz gives me 180 degrees before I run out of spectrum. I could get 90 degrees more with another 20Mhz. Its all about mix and matching. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative I clearly understand this, where did you get $50k per AP and $800 per CPE?? Wimax? I would not care if a WISP had the money of a cellular company, these prices would not make scenes in either case. On top of this, cost of the equipment was not the point, but I am fully aware this makes a differences in a WISP business. My point is simply to the quote 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. Which is 100% wrong 20Mhz here and there will make a HUGE difference to WISP as long as you have cost effective equipment to deploy in these frequencies ranges. My prediction is over the next 18-36 months is any WISP that is going to say in the business will start to migrate fully over to 3.65Ghz and depending on what happens with white space, which is the holy grail for WISP if we can get 802.22 as the standard like ATSC is for digital TV, start looking at it for the best WISP solutions for most of the country. Comments Welcome! :) Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 10:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Tony, the average Wisp is NOT a cellular company and cannot invest 50K per AP and 800 per CPE. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike I do not agree with this at all. Most WISP are used to using 20Mhz 802.11 devices which are VERY frequency inefficient. With 20Mhz and a radio designed to make the most use of the spectrum could easily create channels using 3.5Mhz or 7Mhz in size plus channel reuse and polarizations. I could have well over 1Gb per cell site with users in the 2-3000 range. 802.22 is working on a protocol that is perfect for WISP and can make use of any spectrum very efficiently. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Hopefully he's not referring to the 20 MHz they're trying to make for free access there. 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
WISPs need to be able to deploy 10 megabit plus pipes to the home. No they don't. WISPs need to deploy 10mbps pipes to homes in order to compete equally with Cable Cos and RBOCs. I serve many neighborhoods today, with 900Mhz inteference haven, and they are glad I'm there. 30% of America still does not use broadband. I'm sure they'll be thrilled with their new abilty to ahve always on Email and basic Web just like today's broadband users were 5 years ago. But there are many applications that 20Mhz will solve. I agree, giving an additional 20Mhz will not solve the world's wireless broadband problems, but every bit helps, and 20Mhz helps alot. People's 25 Mhz 3650 now becomes 45Mhz, when they combine 2155 with 3650. Manufactureres need to build multi-band radios, bit that apears to be no problem, based on current tri-band plaus radios on the market today. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative What equipment lets me have 1 GB of throughput on a single site in only 20 MHz of available frequency? WISPs need to be able to deploy 10 megabit plus pipes to the home. A single user then chews up most of your 3.5 or 7 MHz channel. I know physics comes into play. I know government policy comes into play. I know money comes into play. The above is what we should be striving for. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Tony, the average Wisp is NOT a cellular company and cannot invest 50K per AP and 800 per CPE. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike I do not agree with this at all. Most WISP are used to using 20Mhz 802.11 devices which are VERY frequency inefficient. With 20Mhz and a radio designed to make the most use of the spectrum could easily create channels using 3.5Mhz or 7Mhz in size plus channel reuse and polarizations. I could have well over 1Gb per cell site with users in the 2-3000 range. 802.22 is working on a protocol that is perfect for WISP and can make use of any spectrum very efficiently. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Hopefully he's not referring to the 20 MHz they're trying to make for free access there. 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:56 PM Subject: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative http://telephonyonline.com/external.html?q=http://www.pcworld.com/businessce nter/article/147485/fcc_member_lessig_unveil_us_broadband_initiative.html Looks like this could be the start of a good thing. The mention freeing up more spectrum for wireless. Sincerely, Scottie Arnett --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
Tom DeReggi wrote: WISPs need to be able to deploy 10 megabit plus pipes to the home. People's 25 Mhz 3650 now becomes 45Mhz, when they combine 2155 with 3650. What is 2155? This is the second mention I have seen of it (both are on this thread). Google doesn't turn up much at a quick glance. Thanks! Charles Wyble WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
Tom You are still thinking like an 802.11 only protocol :) I can see you have your mind set, once things get closer to having real product then this would be a more valuable thread, until then! Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 2:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Tony, Real throughput requires that much per sector. That is incorrect. It requires that much per sector when the sector is a wide beam PtMP sector, and when there is tons of interference because the band is shared by many. If one provider controls 20Mhz, spectrum reuse can be engineered very easily. That is the big scare here. If a maga company (the only ones largest enough to win Auctions) was to be granted 20Mhz of spectrum for broadband, it will enable a huge amount of services to be offered. A real threat to existing WISPs as far as competition goes. And being forced to give 20% of it away for free is worse. The 20% that they chose to give it to free to, will likely be the person that sends in a competitive bid from you the pre-existing local WISP. If they can't beat you, give it away to put the pressaure on you, after all tehy are just meeting their auction requirements, that they have to do any way. why not kill two birds with one stone. PtMP are not the only applications. A little GPS sync, and many PTP connections can work from a single location, enabling expansion of one's network very easilly. I can see it now... a 4 port starOS box (mesh radio) with 4 PtP stars, each 5 mhz, enabling 10 mbps minimum per sector, more than the typical PtMP sector my network had when it started 6 years ago. Wireless networks aren;t going to stay 100% wireless transport networks. Fiber is going to start to be available at more and more street corners (figure of speach). Start combineing 3650, 2155, 700Mhz, licensed technology, and all togeather bit by bit, it grows to be a large amount. I'd kill to get 20Mhz more spectrum at some of my cell sites. I ahve cell sites where 5.8Ghz gives me 180 degrees before I run out of spectrum. I could get 90 degrees more with another 20Mhz. Its all about mix and matching. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative I clearly understand this, where did you get $50k per AP and $800 per CPE?? Wimax? I would not care if a WISP had the money of a cellular company, these prices would not make scenes in either case. On top of this, cost of the equipment was not the point, but I am fully aware this makes a differences in a WISP business. My point is simply to the quote 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. Which is 100% wrong 20Mhz here and there will make a HUGE difference to WISP as long as you have cost effective equipment to deploy in these frequencies ranges. My prediction is over the next 18-36 months is any WISP that is going to say in the business will start to migrate fully over to 3.65Ghz and depending on what happens with white space, which is the holy grail for WISP if we can get 802.22 as the standard like ATSC is for digital TV, start looking at it for the best WISP solutions for most of the country. Comments Welcome! :) Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 10:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Tony, the average Wisp is NOT a cellular company and cannot invest 50K per AP and 800 per CPE. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike I do not agree with this at all. Most WISP are used to using 20Mhz 802.11 devices which are VERY frequency inefficient. With 20Mhz and a radio designed to make the most use of the spectrum could easily create channels using 3.5Mhz or 7Mhz in size plus channel reuse and polarizations. I could have well over 1Gb per cell site with users in the 2-3000 range. 802.22 is working on a protocol that is perfect for WISP and can make use of any
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
What equipment lets me have 1 GB of throughput on a single site in only 20 MHz of available frequency? WISPs need to be able to deploy 10 megabit plus pipes to the home. A single user then chews up most of your 3.5 or 7 MHz channel. I know physics comes into play. I know government policy comes into play. I know money comes into play. The above is what we should be striving for. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Tony, the average Wisp is NOT a cellular company and cannot invest 50K per AP and 800 per CPE. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike I do not agree with this at all. Most WISP are used to using 20Mhz 802.11 devices which are VERY frequency inefficient. With 20Mhz and a radio designed to make the most use of the spectrum could easily create channels using 3.5Mhz or 7Mhz in size plus channel reuse and polarizations. I could have well over 1Gb per cell site with users in the 2-3000 range. 802.22 is working on a protocol that is perfect for WISP and can make use of any spectrum very efficiently. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Hopefully he's not referring to the 20 MHz they're trying to make for free access there. 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:56 PM Subject: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative http://telephonyonline.com/external.html?q=http://www.pcworld.com/businessce nter/article/147485/fcc_member_lessig_unveil_us_broadband_initiative.html Looks like this could be the start of a good thing. The mention freeing up more spectrum for wireless. Sincerely, Scottie Arnett --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
802.22 sounds good if the channel bonding makes it through to the end and is usable. THAT would be wonderful. If not, 6 MHz isn't going to get us very far in terms of delivering real throughput to any significant number of users. Price always comes into play and if we're looking at $10k APs and $800 CPE like we are for 3.65, again, that won't fly with a typical WISP. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative I clearly understand this, where did you get $50k per AP and $800 per CPE?? Wimax? I would not care if a WISP had the money of a cellular company, these prices would not make scenes in either case. On top of this, cost of the equipment was not the point, but I am fully aware this makes a differences in a WISP business. My point is simply to the quote 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. Which is 100% wrong 20Mhz here and there will make a HUGE difference to WISP as long as you have cost effective equipment to deploy in these frequencies ranges. My prediction is over the next 18-36 months is any WISP that is going to say in the business will start to migrate fully over to 3.65Ghz and depending on what happens with white space, which is the holy grail for WISP if we can get 802.22 as the standard like ATSC is for digital TV, start looking at it for the best WISP solutions for most of the country. Comments Welcome! :) Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 10:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Tony, the average Wisp is NOT a cellular company and cannot invest 50K per AP and 800 per CPE. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike I do not agree with this at all. Most WISP are used to using 20Mhz 802.11 devices which are VERY frequency inefficient. With 20Mhz and a radio designed to make the most use of the spectrum could easily create channels using 3.5Mhz or 7Mhz in size plus channel reuse and polarizations. I could have well over 1Gb per cell site with users in the 2-3000 range. 802.22 is working on a protocol that is perfect for WISP and can make use of any spectrum very efficiently. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Hopefully he's not referring to the 20 MHz they're trying to make for free access there. 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:56 PM Subject: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative http://telephonyonline.com/external.html?q=http://www.pcworld.com/businessce nter/article/147485/fcc_member_lessig_unveil_us_broadband_initiative.html Looks like this could be the start of a good thing. The mention freeing up more spectrum for wireless. Sincerely, Scottie Arnett --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
Mike - It's not just a single antenna on one channel, I am talking about channel reuse. Again need to stop thinking 802.11 - It is possible to have 50Mb-60Mb real data in a 70Mb/7Mhz channel with the right MAC and PHY and in real deployments. - The only reason a single user could use all the bandwidth is because the protocol does not have a dynamic polling algorithm, again not 802.11 :) Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative What equipment lets me have 1 GB of throughput on a single site in only 20 MHz of available frequency? WISPs need to be able to deploy 10 megabit plus pipes to the home. A single user then chews up most of your 3.5 or 7 MHz channel. I know physics comes into play. I know government policy comes into play. I know money comes into play. The above is what we should be striving for. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Tony, the average Wisp is NOT a cellular company and cannot invest 50K per AP and 800 per CPE. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike I do not agree with this at all. Most WISP are used to using 20Mhz 802.11 devices which are VERY frequency inefficient. With 20Mhz and a radio designed to make the most use of the spectrum could easily create channels using 3.5Mhz or 7Mhz in size plus channel reuse and polarizations. I could have well over 1Gb per cell site with users in the 2-3000 range. 802.22 is working on a protocol that is perfect for WISP and can make use of any spectrum very efficiently. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Hopefully he's not referring to the 20 MHz they're trying to make for free access there. 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:56 PM Subject: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative http://telephonyonline.com/external.html?q=http://www.pcworld.com/businessce nter/article/147485/fcc_member_lessig_unveil_us_broadband_initiative.html Looks like this could be the start of a good thing. The mention freeing up more spectrum for wireless. Sincerely, Scottie Arnett --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
Mike - You really need to read the full 802.22 spec :) There is A LOT more than just channel bonding that make 802.22 good. - 6Mhz is more than enough for all WISPs needs when it's used correctly, again (I know) not 802.11 - 3.65Mhz is just in the startup Wimax was first to hit the street but this will be changing. So Demarc will have a 3.65Ghz base unit and CPE with our own MAC base on top of the Atheros radio that takes full advantage of the 50Mhz. So the costs for the base and CPE will not be much higher than 2.4Ghz is now :) This also will help 900Mhz. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 5:19 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative 802.22 sounds good if the channel bonding makes it through to the end and is usable. THAT would be wonderful. If not, 6 MHz isn't going to get us very far in terms of delivering real throughput to any significant number of users. Price always comes into play and if we're looking at $10k APs and $800 CPE like we are for 3.65, again, that won't fly with a typical WISP. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative I clearly understand this, where did you get $50k per AP and $800 per CPE?? Wimax? I would not care if a WISP had the money of a cellular company, these prices would not make scenes in either case. On top of this, cost of the equipment was not the point, but I am fully aware this makes a differences in a WISP business. My point is simply to the quote 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. Which is 100% wrong 20Mhz here and there will make a HUGE difference to WISP as long as you have cost effective equipment to deploy in these frequencies ranges. My prediction is over the next 18-36 months is any WISP that is going to say in the business will start to migrate fully over to 3.65Ghz and depending on what happens with white space, which is the holy grail for WISP if we can get 802.22 as the standard like ATSC is for digital TV, start looking at it for the best WISP solutions for most of the country. Comments Welcome! :) Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 10:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Tony, the average Wisp is NOT a cellular company and cannot invest 50K per AP and 800 per CPE. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike I do not agree with this at all. Most WISP are used to using 20Mhz 802.11 devices which are VERY frequency inefficient. With 20Mhz and a radio designed to make the most use of the spectrum could easily create channels using 3.5Mhz or 7Mhz in size plus channel reuse and polarizations. I could have well over 1Gb per cell site with users in the 2-3000 range. 802.22 is working on a protocol that is perfect for WISP and can make use of any spectrum very efficiently. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Hopefully he's not referring to the 20 MHz they're trying to make for free access there. 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:56 PM Subject: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative http://telephonyonline.com/external.html?q=http://www.pcworld.com/businessce nter/article/147485/fcc_member_lessig_unveil_us_broadband_initiative.html Looks
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
The problem, here Tony, is that the MAC's and PHY that accomlishes this kind of performance isn't built into chipsets that are mass produced like consumer chipsets are. Even I'm going to end up with Atheros based 3.6 ghz products, because nothing else currently makes any sense at all, dollar wise. And with prices like that, there is simpluy NO way to market to consumers. The performance levels ou're talking about will never be sold for numbers less than what I said and Mike seconded. And with the trends in currency value we're seeing, it's very doubtful it will ever reach that low. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike - It's not just a single antenna on one channel, I am talking about channel reuse. Again need to stop thinking 802.11 - It is possible to have 50Mb-60Mb real data in a 70Mb/7Mhz channel with the right MAC and PHY and in real deployments. - The only reason a single user could use all the bandwidth is because the protocol does not have a dynamic polling algorithm, again not 802.11 :) Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
Personally, I really wonder if it is possible to have 10 bits/HZ that a 60 Mbps channel in 6 MHz would have. 8VSB of HDTV was pretty advanced when it was originally proffered as a standard. It does 19.2 Mbps in a 6 MHz channel. Or approx 3 bits / Hz. That seems to be the upper limit of many systems these days. To triple this with any kind of realistic C/I ration will be a wondrous method of modulation. No doubt you could do it with 2048QAM with 1 KW behind it, but that is not reality AFAIK. If this modulation exists, please point me toward a reference work so I can become less ignorant. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative The problem, here Tony, is that the MAC's and PHY that accomlishes this kind of performance isn't built into chipsets that are mass produced like consumer chipsets are. Even I'm going to end up with Atheros based 3.6 ghz products, because nothing else currently makes any sense at all, dollar wise. And with prices like that, there is simpluy NO way to market to consumers. The performance levels ou're talking about will never be sold for numbers less than what I said and Mike seconded. And with the trends in currency value we're seeing, it's very doubtful it will ever reach that low. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike - It's not just a single antenna on one channel, I am talking about channel reuse. Again need to stop thinking 802.11 - It is possible to have 50Mb-60Mb real data in a 70Mb/7Mhz channel with the right MAC and PHY and in real deployments. - The only reason a single user could use all the bandwidth is because the protocol does not have a dynamic polling algorithm, again not 802.11 :) Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
Never say never. My first cell phone (a 3 watt Uniden bag phone) cost me over $1000.00. It may take time but the price levels will come down. It won't happen right away but it will happen. You can't have relatively protected spectrum and still have a throw away consumer priced piece of gear. This will be gear you can expect a longer life span and thus be able to spread your ROI over more time. While the prices may be more than you are used to spending, with the spectrum and longer life span you might also find it easier to finance the same equipment. This is how carriers like cell phone companies, cable operators and phone companies have done it time and time again. We can't get stuck in the same current thought paradigm when looking at whitespace plans.. This may require a step back, deep breath and try to look at things fresh. I can't tell you how many times in my 18 years of wireless I thought things could not be done or the public would never use features like that. I have been wrong many times. What I have learned is that we need to keep an open mind. Change will come and sometimes things happen we never would have imagined. I remember reading in a magazine as a kid about cellular mobile phones and it requiring all these new towers and frequency re-use. I thought to myself that it would cost way too much money to build all the towers and that they would never make moneyboy was I wrong... Think positive and think we can make this work! Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 11:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative The problem, here Tony, is that the MAC's and PHY that accomlishes this kind of performance isn't built into chipsets that are mass produced like consumer chipsets are. Even I'm going to end up with Atheros based 3.6 ghz products, because nothing else currently makes any sense at all, dollar wise. And with prices like that, there is simpluy NO way to market to consumers. The performance levels ou're talking about will never be sold for numbers less than what I said and Mike seconded. And with the trends in currency value we're seeing, it's very doubtful it will ever reach that low. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike - It's not just a single antenna on one channel, I am talking about channel reuse. Again need to stop thinking 802.11 - It is possible to have 50Mb-60Mb real data in a 70Mb/7Mhz channel with the right MAC and PHY and in real deployments. - The only reason a single user could use all the bandwidth is because the protocol does not have a dynamic polling algorithm, again not 802.11 :) Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
I agree with you 100% right now they are not and I should make the point that what I am talking about is what will be coming down the line in the next 18-24 months. I understand most WISP are in the here and now :) But with this said things are in the works. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 11:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative The problem, here Tony, is that the MAC's and PHY that accomlishes this kind of performance isn't built into chipsets that are mass produced like consumer chipsets are. Even I'm going to end up with Atheros based 3.6 ghz products, because nothing else currently makes any sense at all, dollar wise. And with prices like that, there is simpluy NO way to market to consumers. The performance levels ou're talking about will never be sold for numbers less than what I said and Mike seconded. And with the trends in currency value we're seeing, it's very doubtful it will ever reach that low. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike - It's not just a single antenna on one channel, I am talking about channel reuse. Again need to stop thinking 802.11 - It is possible to have 50Mb-60Mb real data in a 70Mb/7Mhz channel with the right MAC and PHY and in real deployments. - The only reason a single user could use all the bandwidth is because the protocol does not have a dynamic polling algorithm, again not 802.11 :) Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
Crap this was a typo should have been 10Mhz channel. Also right now 802.16m and LTE are doing 5bits/Hertz that has happen in field tests. Most of what I am talking about is OFDMA, MIMO with some type of advanced antenna system. I have seen test of AAS that are very cost effective it's just a matter of getting this all into a single package to be cost effective. Point is as these chipsets start to hit mass market we can start finding ways of using them :) Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 11:10 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Personally, I really wonder if it is possible to have 10 bits/HZ that a 60 Mbps channel in 6 MHz would have. 8VSB of HDTV was pretty advanced when it was originally proffered as a standard. It does 19.2 Mbps in a 6 MHz channel. Or approx 3 bits / Hz. That seems to be the upper limit of many systems these days. To triple this with any kind of realistic C/I ration will be a wondrous method of modulation. No doubt you could do it with 2048QAM with 1 KW behind it, but that is not reality AFAIK. If this modulation exists, please point me toward a reference work so I can become less ignorant. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative The problem, here Tony, is that the MAC's and PHY that accomlishes this kind of performance isn't built into chipsets that are mass produced like consumer chipsets are. Even I'm going to end up with Atheros based 3.6 ghz products, because nothing else currently makes any sense at all, dollar wise. And with prices like that, there is simpluy NO way to market to consumers. The performance levels ou're talking about will never be sold for numbers less than what I said and Mike seconded. And with the trends in currency value we're seeing, it's very doubtful it will ever reach that low. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike - It's not just a single antenna on one channel, I am talking about channel reuse. Again need to stop thinking 802.11 - It is possible to have 50Mb-60Mb real data in a 70Mb/7Mhz channel with the right MAC and PHY and in real deployments. - The only reason a single user could use all the bandwidth is because the protocol does not have a dynamic polling algorithm, again not 802.11 :) Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
Tony, the average Wisp is NOT a cellular company and cannot invest 50K per AP and 800 per CPE. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Mike I do not agree with this at all. Most WISP are used to using 20Mhz 802.11 devices which are VERY frequency inefficient. With 20Mhz and a radio designed to make the most use of the spectrum could easily create channels using 3.5Mhz or 7Mhz in size plus channel reuse and polarizations. I could have well over 1Gb per cell site with users in the 2-3000 range. 802.22 is working on a protocol that is perfect for WISP and can make use of any spectrum very efficiently. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Hopefully he's not referring to the 20 MHz they're trying to make for free access there. 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:56 PM Subject: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative http://telephonyonline.com/external.html?q=http://www.pcworld.com/businessce nter/article/147485/fcc_member_lessig_unveil_us_broadband_initiative.html Looks like this could be the start of a good thing. The mention freeing up more spectrum for wireless. Sincerely, Scottie Arnett --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
Mike I do not agree with this at all. Most WISP are used to using 20Mhz 802.11 devices which are VERY frequency inefficient. With 20Mhz and a radio designed to make the most use of the spectrum could easily create channels using 3.5Mhz or 7Mhz in size plus channel reuse and polarizations. I could have well over 1Gb per cell site with users in the 2-3000 range. 802.22 is working on a protocol that is perfect for WISP and can make use of any spectrum very efficiently. Sincerely, Tony Morella Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008 http://www.demarctech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative Hopefully he's not referring to the 20 MHz they're trying to make for free access there. 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:56 PM Subject: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative http://telephonyonline.com/external.html?q=http://www.pcworld.com/businessce nter/article/147485/fcc_member_lessig_unveil_us_broadband_initiative.html Looks like this could be the start of a good thing. The mention freeing up more spectrum for wireless. Sincerely, Scottie Arnett --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative
Hopefully he's not referring to the 20 MHz they're trying to make for free access there. 20 MHz here and there just isn't going to work for broadband. Real throughput requires that much per sector. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:56 PM Subject: [WISPA] FCC Member, Lessig Unveil U.S. Broadband Initiative http://telephonyonline.com/external.html?q=http://www.pcworld.com/businessce nter/article/147485/fcc_member_lessig_unveil_us_broadband_initiative.html Looks like this could be the start of a good thing. The mention freeing up more spectrum for wireless. Sincerely, Scottie Arnett --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC chief's free broadband plan delayed
The FCC wants to put you out of business by getting someone to provide internet for free to your customers. With FRIENDS like that, who needs enemies? insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 7:24 AM Subject: [WISPA] FCC chief's free broadband plan delayed http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080606/ap_on_hi_te/free_broadband WASHINGTON - A plan by the nation's top telecommunications regulator to provide free wireless high-speed Internet service hit a snag this week over concerns about possible interference and a proposed censoring feature that upset free speech advocates. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
I would argue that this issue would be something best under the jurisdiction of Federal Courts, not the FCC or States. Any service that is provided to a consumer for use in Multiple States, makes it overly encumbersome for the provider or consumer to have to address it legally with MULTIPLE State Courts. Not that I am saying that their is any Legal support for my above comments. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Larry Yunker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Whether it is the job of the FCC to ensure fairness with regards to telecommunications contracts is yet to be determined. Traditionally, STATE COURTS have resolved contractual disputes. However, in 2005, a cell carrier named SunCom filed a petition with the FCC asking the FCC to declare that early termination fees fall under rate charged doctrine and therefore fall under the exclusive jurisdiction of the FCC (thus blocking STATE COURTS from rendering decisions against the cell carrier). The FCC has held comment on the issue and was thought to be getting close to a ruling on the issue when SunCom suddenly and unexpectedly SETTLED their case (March 21, 2008) with their client(s) and dropped the petition for the declaratory ruling. The net effect is that the FCC hasn't decided whether early termination fees as a contractual issue are strictly a FEDERAL issue to be decided by the FCC or if they are a traditional common law issue to be decided at the state level. The meetings later this month may shed some further light on how ETF's will be adjudicated in the future. It certainly appears that the FCC is moving towards regulation of the marketplace. Don't take my comments to be weighing in favor of FCC regulation of this issue. I believe that state courts could certainly resolve these disputes just as well as the FCC (albeit inconsistently across state lines). Common law contract law as well as consumer protection statutes would address many of the concerns that have been raised with regards to early termination fees. The problem that we have today is that many state federal courts have placed litigation regarding early termination fees on hold UNTIL the FCC declares whether or not they are going to completely preempt the field of telecommunication termination fees. This indecision by the FCC has held up litigation for up to three years in state and federal courts. The main thing that we need right now is definitive action of some sort so that subscribers have rights either in state court or before the FCC and so that PROVIDERS have some sense of direction with regards to their obligations or limitations under common law and regulatory regimes. - Larry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:12 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Larry Yunker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Travis, I agree wholeheartedly that a customer should be held to the terms of a contract and certainly should be responsible for reading and accepting the terms of the agreement. The issue is that some contracts are designed to penalize rather than recoup costs. Again... So? It is not the job of government to ensure that everything a customer chooses to do is made fair for him. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
reform contracts when the contracts try to impose penalties I'd also argue, that the opposite sometimes also occurs. That the Courts will often dismiss judgements when Penalties are not clearly defined in a contract upfront. If one can clearly define upfront, a penalty, that would appropriately reflect the losses the provider would likely incur on early termination, and get the apposing party to agree that those losses are accurate, then it constitutes a mutual concensus and understanding which is the foundation of every contract. Its understandable that in many cases exact losses are not easilly proven, and estimated losses could be used, if their was a sound basis for estimating those losses. Without that in advance, a court would likely require proof of exact losses. I've seen similar cases related to things like Employee Non-Competes or Subscription based Clubs like Health Spas. What I find occurs, is that if repercussions (penalties) or any restriction is put in a contract that is OVERLY RESTRICTIVE, that it would often be thrown out of court as unreasonable and uninforceable, or reduced to the level that would allow it to be inforceable. Actually many contracts specifically add the text if any part of this contract is deamed to be uninforceable restrictions will be reduced to the level that will allow them to be reasonable and inforcable. The best chance is to set a restriction in a contact that are fair and to the minimal level appropriate to effectively solve the mutually pre-agreed purpose. Because then there is no basis to ask for the contract to be allowed to be breached, and likely allowed to be inforceable. If a reasonable contract was not ever allowed to be inforcable, no one would ever take the time to write one in the first place. Any contract that has terms within it that are illegal, are not enforcible. Today, I see so many contracts that have illegal non-inforcable clauses within them. Today, oFten, I see the purpose of a contract to be just to determine who assumes the burden of proof (cost) to prove the contract one way or the other. For example, Credit Bureaus are one of the biggest rackets today to help sellers. A credit Bureau is not required to make judgement on the legality of the vendor that made the claim to a personal credit report, just that their is an agreement in place. Thus the consumer often need to pay the cost to disprove, to clear their name, or be leveraged to pay an amount they do not legally owe to restore their good name. Its all about cost and leverage today, not the law. Which I persaonlly think is sad. What we need, is government legislation, that reduces the cost to consumers, to enforce contract terms, and reduce the costs to providers, to fight fraudualent consumer claims. So we can make decissions based on the law, and not on the hassle/cost incurred to inforce the law. As long as there are Credit Reporting Agencies, and Credit Reporting Agencies' models are to first (priority) represent the Providers and Vendors, and only consumers and buyers secondly, these are battles that will be fault behind the scenes, with very little respect to what the law actually is. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Larry Yunker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes The problem lies in the common belief that one can draft a contract which imposes a penalty for breach of contract. While courts often allow some measure of liquidated damages they generally will not protect a drafting party by enforcing a penalty clause. So, if you were challenged by a customer when trying to enforce an early termination fee of $1000.00 on a 2 year term internet service agreement, you would have to show that you would likely loose $1000.00 in expenses and ascertainable future revenues. For example: If you charge $50.00 per month for internet, you could probably show $1000.00 in potential loss over the two year term but remember that the amount of loss diminishes the further into that term that you get. BUT... Now look at your example of a $10,000 termination fee. No court would enforce a $10,000 termination fee for $50/month internet because it would clearly be a penalty. Worst case if you paid $1000.00 for the CPE, $500 for the install, and lost $1200 in future revenues, you would still only have lost $2700.00 total. So the court would cap you at $2700.00 worth of liquidated damages. I know that everyone would like to think that there is an absolute freedom to put anything you want into a contract, but it's simply not true. Courts reform contracts when the contracts try to impose penalties. The policy reason for doing disallowing penalties is to promote freedom of contract. In that sometimes it's better for competition
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Sounds like you and your militia buddies better go do sumptin' 'bout it. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes That's really a non-response to the issue. As a WISP, I travel the public roads, does this make me a regulated industry? Of course not. I am still bound by the rules of the road, however. But just driving the public highway does not obligate me to buy a car for the cop when his breaks, out of my pocket, because I was the closest person at hand when his broke down, or hand him the keys because mine is faster and more capable. Nor does it obligate me to feed him, buy him donuts, nor does it mean I can be required to file his papers for him or launder his uniform. Nor does it give the federal government the right to set my wages, because I use public facilities. This we're already a regulated industry, stop fighting and accept extinction argument is specious, and we all know it. I just can't figure who it is that wants it and has cowed everyone else into silence. We do NOT need the FCC to tell us how to manage data flow on our networks, how to charge for our services, nor control what content passes through, nor be prohibited from passing through our networks. Nor do we need to be doing THEIR work for them for free, just because they get a whim to ask for it. WE SHOULD BE PROACTIVE IN DEFENDING OURSELVES. I just can't figure out why or how the only supposed representative of WISP's is seemingly unable to make one single official statement in opposition to any mandate or regulatory fiat. I said a long time ago that these things would come back to bite us, if we did not take a defensive stand.When CALEA first came onto the horizon, we got all kinds of pleasant sounding words about how they just needed help with law enforcement. The last word on the standard was that either you rebuild your network to conform or else you're dead. Even if it means complete redesign of how your network functions. Of course, that was specifically denied at the first, with vague statements about how they do not intend to mandate network design, etc. Now even the WISPA people are on that bandwagon, and even have gone along with mandated network design or equipment. The question I have is... AT WHAT POINT WILL WISPA defend us? Ever? It seems they're the cheerleaders for regulation, not our defenders. It seems it takes around 2 to 3 trips to DC and they come back all starry eyed and delusional about the nature of the MONSTER they are so charmed by. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 2 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes We ARE regulated now. Just try to go on some other non part 15 frequency or start running power on ULS freqs. You will discover very quickly how regulated you are. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
What does this have to do with militia?This is plain old business sense talking. There's a very observable business history, and we're all businessmen. Nothing I've said is in any way strange or even not well known. I'd just like to know what on earth people think they're going to get in the short run that's worth all of us vanishing. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 2 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 6:57 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Sounds like you and your militia buddies better go do sumptin' 'bout it. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes That's really a non-response to the issue. As a WISP, I travel the public roads, does this make me a regulated industry? Of course not. I am still bound by the rules of the road, however. But just driving the public highway does not obligate me to buy a car for the cop when his breaks, out of my pocket, because I was the closest person at hand when his broke down, or hand him the keys because mine is faster and more capable. Nor does it obligate me to feed him, buy him donuts, nor does it mean I can be required to file his papers for him or launder his uniform. Nor does it give the federal government the right to set my wages, because I use public facilities. This we're already a regulated industry, stop fighting and accept extinction argument is specious, and we all know it. I just can't figure who it is that wants it and has cowed everyone else into silence. We do NOT need the FCC to tell us how to manage data flow on our networks, how to charge for our services, nor control what content passes through, nor be prohibited from passing through our networks. Nor do we need to be doing THEIR work for them for free, just because they get a whim to ask for it. WE SHOULD BE PROACTIVE IN DEFENDING OURSELVES. I just can't figure out why or how the only supposed representative of WISP's is seemingly unable to make one single official statement in opposition to any mandate or regulatory fiat. I said a long time ago that these things would come back to bite us, if we did not take a defensive stand.When CALEA first came onto the horizon, we got all kinds of pleasant sounding words about how they just needed help with law enforcement. The last word on the standard was that either you rebuild your network to conform or else you're dead. Even if it means complete redesign of how your network functions. Of course, that was specifically denied at the first, with vague statements about how they do not intend to mandate network design, etc. Now even the WISPA people are on that bandwagon, and even have gone along with mandated network design or equipment. The question I have is... AT WHAT POINT WILL WISPA defend us? Ever? It seems they're the cheerleaders for regulation, not our defenders. It seems it takes around 2 to 3 trips to DC and they come back all starry eyed and delusional about the nature of the MONSTER they are so charmed by. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 2 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes We ARE regulated now. Just try to go on some other non part 15 frequency or start running power on ULS freqs. You will discover very quickly how regulated you are. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
I have a $275 install and I still have people not paying their bills. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Blair Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Well, our cheapest install has always been $200 and I just raised it to $250. Prices go up from there. We also have a 1 month ROI on our installs. (install fee + 1st month service pays for the install) We also do not do contracts... everything is month to month. While the price of the install can be a barrier, it also screens out a lot of those who will not pay their monthly bill. Travis Johnson wrote: Exactly... which will pretty much stop our installs... cable, DSL and WiMAX providers will continue to do free installs. Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Well lets say we can't charge early termination anymore, We are back to charging $300/install and paying $400 for a cellphone. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 11:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] FCC changes This could turn in to something it shouldn't really fast... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/30/AR2008053002 776.html We charge 100% of the remaining contract because we are eating the cost on the equipment and rolling a truck (for both installation and pickup). Now they want to regulate how much we can charge for early termination. :( Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
The government should not restrict a company's ability to charge an early termination fee. Consumers are offered a lower startup price and lower monthly price because they commit to being a customer for a specified amount of time. If the government MUST get involved, perhaps require an option for service without an early termination penalty, which most companies offer... It's called paying full price for the phone or installation. Free cell phones actually cost the company a couple hundred dollars. When I install fixed wireless customers for my company, their committal to my company for a specified amount of time allows me to charge less for a startup fee because I know I'll make that money up in monthly fees over time. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 10:51 PM Subject: [WISPA] FCC changes This could turn in to something it shouldn't really fast... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/30/AR2008053002776.html We charge 100% of the remaining contract because we are eating the cost on the equipment and rolling a truck (for both installation and pickup). Now they want to regulate how much we can charge for early termination. :( Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
A lot of phones I have seen are starting to standardize on USB, which they should have done 10 years ago. My Motorola Nextel, my friend's Asian Windows Mobile Sprint, and another friend's Palm Sprint all use USB. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes I personally would love to see this pass FCC. Large companies have a huge advantage over Small providers, because Money is cheap to them, so they CAN fincance gears, and do the give aways. I'd like it to be more painful for them to give it away. I hate this perception that Equipment should be free. What would likely occur though is that the large companies would just add a second line item lease fee, and say OK Cancel, but its your phone, so continue paying the lease for a phone that you can't use. Personally I think the bigger racket is unique connector concept, where every new Phone model has a different charger connector. Not only is it not portable between providers, but its not portable to new models within the same provider. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Frank Crawford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Travis, Put a different name on it like Equipment removal fee and drive on. Frank - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 8:51 PM Subject: [WISPA] FCC changes This could turn in to something it shouldn't really fast... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/30/AR2008053002776.html We charge 100% of the remaining contract because we are eating the cost on the equipment and rolling a truck (for both installation and pickup). Now they want to regulate how much we can charge for early termination. :( Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
I still don't get it. If you specifically stated the early termination fee in the contract and provide a well defined SLA and what will happen if you do not provide that SLA to the customer, then what is to be argued? If the contract says there is a $1000 termination fee or a $10,000 termination fee, it should not matter. When you both sign your name to the contract, you have both agreed to all terms IN that contract. It is what is left out of the contract that should be dealt with in court. As per this discussion, the Internet in most part is still unregulated. Just because the FCC rules it on the cell carriers (which I think is still not right), it should not be passed on to ISP's until the Internet is a fully regulated industry that falls under their control. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Larry Yunker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:12:14 -0400 Whether it is the job of the FCC to ensure fairness with regards to telecommunications contracts is yet to be determined. Traditionally, STATE COURTS have resolved contractual disputes. However, in 2005, a cell carrier named SunCom filed a petition with the FCC asking the FCC to declare that early termination fees fall under rate charged doctrine and therefore fall under the exclusive jurisdiction of the FCC (thus blocking STATE COURTS from rendering decisions against the cell carrier). The FCC has held comment on the issue and was thought to be getting close to a ruling on the issue when SunCom suddenly and unexpectedly SETTLED their case (March 21, 2008) with their client(s) and dropped the petition for the declaratory ruling. The net effect is that the FCC hasn't decided whether early termination fees as a contractual issue are strictly a FEDERAL issue to be decided by the FCC or if they are a traditional common law issue to be decided at the state level. The meetings later this month may shed some further light on how ETF's will be adjudicated in the future. It certainly appears that the FCC is moving towards regulation of the marketplace. Don't take my comments to be weighing in favor of FCC regulation of this issue. I believe that state courts could certainly resolve these disputes just as well as the FCC (albeit inconsistently across state lines). Common law contract law as well as consumer protection statutes would address many of the concerns that have been raised with regards to early termination fees. The problem that we have today is that many state federal courts have placed litigation regarding early termination fees on hold UNTIL the FCC declares whether or not they are going to completely preempt the field of telecommunication termination fees. This indecision by the FCC has held up litigation for up to three years in state and federal courts. The main thing that we need right now is definitive action of some sort so that subscribers have rights either in state court or before the FCC and so that PROVIDERS have some sense of direction with regards to their obligations or limitations under common law and regulatory regimes. - Larry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:12 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Larry Yunker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Travis, I agree wholeheartedly that a customer should be held to the terms of a contract and certainly should be responsible for reading and accepting the terms of the agreement. The issue is that some contracts are designed to penalize rather than recoup costs. Again... So? It is not the job of government to ensure that everything a customer chooses to do is made fair for him. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
That last part about being full regulated should be fought to our last breath.It's our only means of survival. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes . Just because the FCC rules it on the cell carriers (which I think is still not right), it should not be passed on to ISP's until the Internet is a fully regulated industry that falls under their control. Scottie WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Originally the telcos were unregulated. You had Bell, Gray, Home and others. Market forces started to help settle who the larger players were but there were still farmer lines in the 1960s that were unregulated. All farmer lines that combined to become ILECs did pretty good. Regulation was very good in that instance. Regulation (part-15 rules) is the only way we exist now. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes That last part about being full regulated should be fought to our last breath.It's our only means of survival. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes . Just because the FCC rules it on the cell carriers (which I think is still not right), it should not be passed on to ISP's until the Internet is a fully regulated industry that falls under their control. Scottie WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
You make my case for me. If ISP's become fully regulated there will only be the telcos. Thanks for agreeing. Our survival DEPENDS on not being 'regulated'. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 2 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:32 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Originally the telcos were unregulated. You had Bell, Gray, Home and others. Market forces started to help settle who the larger players were but there were still farmer lines in the 1960s that were unregulated. All farmer lines that combined to become ILECs did pretty good. Regulation was very good in that instance. Regulation (part-15 rules) is the only way we exist now. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes That last part about being full regulated should be fought to our last breath.It's our only means of survival. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes . Just because the FCC rules it on the cell carriers (which I think is still not right), it should not be passed on to ISP's until the Internet is a fully regulated industry that falls under their control. Scottie WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
We ARE regulated now. Just try to go on some other non part 15 frequency or start running power on ULS freqs. You will discover very quickly how regulated you are. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes You make my case for me. If ISP's become fully regulated there will only be the telcos. Thanks for agreeing. Our survival DEPENDS on not being 'regulated'. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 2 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:32 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Originally the telcos were unregulated. You had Bell, Gray, Home and others. Market forces started to help settle who the larger players were but there were still farmer lines in the 1960s that were unregulated. All farmer lines that combined to become ILECs did pretty good. Regulation was very good in that instance. Regulation (part-15 rules) is the only way we exist now. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes That last part about being full regulated should be fought to our last breath.It's our only means of survival. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes . Just because the FCC rules it on the cell carriers (which I think is still not right), it should not be passed on to ISP's until the Internet is a fully regulated industry that falls under their control. Scottie WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
The problem lies in the common belief that one can draft a contract which imposes a penalty for breach of contract. While courts often allow some measure of liquidated damages they generally will not protect a drafting party by enforcing a penalty clause. So, if you were challenged by a customer when trying to enforce an early termination fee of $1000.00 on a 2 year term internet service agreement, you would have to show that you would likely loose $1000.00 in expenses and ascertainable future revenues. For example: If you charge $50.00 per month for internet, you could probably show $1000.00 in potential loss over the two year term but remember that the amount of loss diminishes the further into that term that you get. BUT... Now look at your example of a $10,000 termination fee. No court would enforce a $10,000 termination fee for $50/month internet because it would clearly be a penalty. Worst case if you paid $1000.00 for the CPE, $500 for the install, and lost $1200 in future revenues, you would still only have lost $2700.00 total. So the court would cap you at $2700.00 worth of liquidated damages. I know that everyone would like to think that there is an absolute freedom to put anything you want into a contract, but it's simply not true. Courts reform contracts when the contracts try to impose penalties. The policy reason for doing disallowing penalties is to promote freedom of contract. In that sometimes it's better for competition, the economy, and the marketplace for parties to be able to BREACH their contractual agreements. Therefore we want to allow breaches to occur when it would economically make sense to leave the contract or break its terms. Let's face it... if you could ALWAYS write a big penalty into every contract, NO ONE would ever be able to willingly break a contract. - Larry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scottie Arnett Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes I still don't get it. If you specifically stated the early termination fee in the contract and provide a well defined SLA and what will happen if you do not provide that SLA to the customer, then what is to be argued? If the contract says there is a $1000 termination fee or a $10,000 termination fee, it should not matter. When you both sign your name to the contract, you have both agreed to all terms IN that contract. It is what is left out of the contract that should be dealt with in court. As per this discussion, the Internet in most part is still unregulated. Just because the FCC rules it on the cell carriers (which I think is still not right), it should not be passed on to ISP's until the Internet is a fully regulated industry that falls under their control. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Larry Yunker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 01:12:14 -0400 Whether it is the job of the FCC to ensure fairness with regards to telecommunications contracts is yet to be determined. Traditionally, STATE COURTS have resolved contractual disputes. However, in 2005, a cell carrier named SunCom filed a petition with the FCC asking the FCC to declare that early termination fees fall under rate charged doctrine and therefore fall under the exclusive jurisdiction of the FCC (thus blocking STATE COURTS from rendering decisions against the cell carrier). The FCC has held comment on the issue and was thought to be getting close to a ruling on the issue when SunCom suddenly and unexpectedly SETTLED their case (March 21, 2008) with their client(s) and dropped the petition for the declaratory ruling. The net effect is that the FCC hasn't decided whether early termination fees as a contractual issue are strictly a FEDERAL issue to be decided by the FCC or if they are a traditional common law issue to be decided at the state level. The meetings later this month may shed some further light on how ETF's will be adjudicated in the future. It certainly appears that the FCC is moving towards regulation of the marketplace. Don't take my comments to be weighing in favor of FCC regulation of this issue. I believe that state courts could certainly resolve these disputes just as well as the FCC (albeit inconsistently across state lines). Common law contract law as well as consumer protection statutes would address many of the concerns that have been raised with regards to early termination fees. The problem that we have today is that many state federal courts have placed litigation regarding early termination fees on hold UNTIL the FCC declares whether or not they are going to completely preempt the field of telecommunication termination fees. This indecision by the FCC has held up litigation for up to three years in state and federal courts. The main thing that we need right now is definitive action of some sort so
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
If ISP's become fully regulated there will only be the telcos. Thanks for agreeing. Our survival DEPENDS on not being 'regulated'. Billions of dollars in government handouts without having to do any real work? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. I wanna be a telco! :) David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
I AM a telco and want to know where the handouts come from. Real work? Plowing fiber through solid rock so I can earn $13.50/month providing basic service, I guess that isn't real work, right? BTW, show me where any tax dollars are used to support the telcos. That one has always eluded me too. - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes If ISP's become fully regulated there will only be the telcos. Thanks for agreeing. Our survival DEPENDS on not being 'regulated'. Billions of dollars in government handouts without having to do any real work? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. I wanna be a telco! :) David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Chuck, maybe you can shed some light on a thought I had here. With most of my telco contracts, there is not an early termination fee involved. Instead, I am contractually obligated to pay for the remainder of the contract, or in other instances something like 50-70% of the remainder if I stop the service before the end of the contracted period. Is that an FCC requirement that telcos handle early termination that way, or just a standard industry practice? Anyone do that in the WISP world? Randy Chuck McCown - 2 wrote: I AM a telco and want to know where the handouts come from. Real work? Plowing fiber through solid rock so I can earn $13.50/month providing basic service, I guess that isn't real work, right? BTW, show me where any tax dollars are used to support the telcos. That one has always eluded me too. - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes If ISP's become fully regulated there will only be the telcos. Thanks for agreeing. Our survival DEPENDS on not being 'regulated'. Billions of dollars in government handouts without having to do any real work? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. I wanna be a telco! :) David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Randy Cosby Vice President InfoWest, Inc office: 435-773-6071 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
The only thing we have to do is to stick to the tariff. And the tariff must be approved. Normally the FCC and NECA and the state regulators attempt to enforce fairness in tariffs. However things like leased lines (for backbone connections) are frequently unregulated and the telcos are free to use market forces to make their deals. So, no it is not a requirement that I know that anyone in this business has to charge early termination fees. I would guess that they are the most often discounted portions of the bills that there are. - Original Message - From: Randy Cosby [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Chuck, maybe you can shed some light on a thought I had here. With most of my telco contracts, there is not an early termination fee involved. Instead, I am contractually obligated to pay for the remainder of the contract, or in other instances something like 50-70% of the remainder if I stop the service before the end of the contracted period. Is that an FCC requirement that telcos handle early termination that way, or just a standard industry practice? Anyone do that in the WISP world? Randy Chuck McCown - 2 wrote: I AM a telco and want to know where the handouts come from. Real work? Plowing fiber through solid rock so I can earn $13.50/month providing basic service, I guess that isn't real work, right? BTW, show me where any tax dollars are used to support the telcos. That one has always eluded me too. - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes If ISP's become fully regulated there will only be the telcos. Thanks for agreeing. Our survival DEPENDS on not being 'regulated'. Billions of dollars in government handouts without having to do any real work? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. I wanna be a telco! :) David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Randy Cosby Vice President InfoWest, Inc office: 435-773-6071 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
This could turn in to something it shouldn't really fast... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/30/AR2008053002776.html I agree that this could be a real issue. But one thing that really irks me though is the under handed(in my opinion) use of auto renewing contracts. After the contract is up it should just switch to month to month service. This is likely what has opened this can of worms. I know of a few people that are screaming about that. They switch there telco circuits to a new provider. They sign like a 2 year term. After 2 years 4 months they figure the contract is up so they switch again. They get nailed on early termination because it auto renewed for another 2 years 4 months earlier. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
That's really a non-response to the issue. As a WISP, I travel the public roads, does this make me a regulated industry? Of course not. I am still bound by the rules of the road, however. But just driving the public highway does not obligate me to buy a car for the cop when his breaks, out of my pocket, because I was the closest person at hand when his broke down, or hand him the keys because mine is faster and more capable. Nor does it obligate me to feed him, buy him donuts, nor does it mean I can be required to file his papers for him or launder his uniform. Nor does it give the federal government the right to set my wages, because I use public facilities. This we're already a regulated industry, stop fighting and accept extinction argument is specious, and we all know it. I just can't figure who it is that wants it and has cowed everyone else into silence. We do NOT need the FCC to tell us how to manage data flow on our networks, how to charge for our services, nor control what content passes through, nor be prohibited from passing through our networks. Nor do we need to be doing THEIR work for them for free, just because they get a whim to ask for it. WE SHOULD BE PROACTIVE IN DEFENDING OURSELVES. I just can't figure out why or how the only supposed representative of WISP's is seemingly unable to make one single official statement in opposition to any mandate or regulatory fiat. I said a long time ago that these things would come back to bite us, if we did not take a defensive stand.When CALEA first came onto the horizon, we got all kinds of pleasant sounding words about how they just needed help with law enforcement. The last word on the standard was that either you rebuild your network to conform or else you're dead. Even if it means complete redesign of how your network functions. Of course, that was specifically denied at the first, with vague statements about how they do not intend to mandate network design, etc. Now even the WISPA people are on that bandwagon, and even have gone along with mandated network design or equipment. The question I have is... AT WHAT POINT WILL WISPA defend us? Ever?It seems they're the cheerleaders for regulation, not our defenders. It seems it takes around 2 to 3 trips to DC and they come back all starry eyed and delusional about the nature of the MONSTER they are so charmed by. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 2 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes We ARE regulated now. Just try to go on some other non part 15 frequency or start running power on ULS freqs. You will discover very quickly how regulated you are. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Yep, I got nailed by this once myself. - Original Message - From: Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes This could turn in to something it shouldn't really fast... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/30/AR2008053002776.html I agree that this could be a real issue. But one thing that really irks me though is the under handed(in my opinion) use of auto renewing contracts. After the contract is up it should just switch to month to month service. This is likely what has opened this can of worms. I know of a few people that are screaming about that. They switch there telco circuits to a new provider. They sign like a 2 year term. After 2 years 4 months they figure the contract is up so they switch again. They get nailed on early termination because it auto renewed for another 2 years 4 months earlier. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
I agree that the auto-renew trick is a concern, but I think that cellular service is where this all started. Changes in availability, reliability, packages, and competition in the cellular market has also lead to much of the push for early termination fee (ETF) reform. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, land-line phone rates are tariffed services. Cellular is NOT subject to tariffs and is VERY loosely regulated with regards to quality issues. With the mergers of Cingular and ATT and Nextel and Sprint, roughly half of all cell phone users in the U.S. have had some sort of merger affect their service, billing, or network over the past five years. Some changes have been good, some bad, but the net effect is that these changes may have spurred many customers to look elsewhere for service. From the consumer's prospective, ETF's stand in the way of customer choice. From the prospective of a service provider we all understand the need to recoup our investment and we understand the cost of losing a customer, hopefully the regulators will see this potential loss to the provider before issuing any preemptory rules regarding EFT's. - Larry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 5:27 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes This could turn in to something it shouldn't really fast... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/30/AR2008053002 776.html I agree that this could be a real issue. But one thing that really irks me though is the under handed(in my opinion) use of auto renewing contracts. After the contract is up it should just switch to month to month service. This is likely what has opened this can of worms. I know of a few people that are screaming about that. They switch there telco circuits to a new provider. They sign like a 2 year term. After 2 years 4 months they figure the contract is up so they switch again. They get nailed on early termination because it auto renewed for another 2 years 4 months earlier. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
- Original Message - From: Larry Yunker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes With the mergers of Cingular and ATT and Nextel and Sprint, roughly half of all cell phone users in the U.S. have had some sort of merger affect their service, billing, or network over the past five years. Some changes have been good, some bad, but the net effect is that these changes may have spurred many customers to look elsewhere for service. I have to second that. It takes my cell provider AT LEAST 3 months to get my billing and choices correct after ANY change in service. It wasn't always this way, either. But, they had a rather famous merger a while back and each time they improve they get worse. And what's worse? You can ask the exact same question on 4 different days, to 4 different CSR's and get 3 different answers + an I don't know. I've chosen them for technical reasons, but if customer service was the deciding factor, I'd have changed a LONG time ago. insert witty tagline here WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Larry Yunker wrote: but I think that cellular service is where this all started. Changes in availability, reliability, packages, and competition in the cellular market has also lead to much of the push for early termination fee (ETF) reform. There was a point in time when T Mobile was turning on in our area. We got hooked up with them for a bit. They offered big commissions, 150-175 to sign up new customers. If there was a phone to be given, we would buy the phone. I'm pretty certain they paid the company we dealt with quite abit more. So I can see the cell companies reasoning behind wanting to collect early termination fees from the subscriber. They're upfront cost are substantial. I also understand in the TV world, they pay a size able install and commission, but if the customer defaults and quits early, they back charge the sales installation vendor. Somewhere the customer has to pay or nobody is going to make any money, or be profitable. Can you imagine what will happen to the industry, if contracts where no longer an issue and the cell companies ran aggressive marketing campaigns to lure away each others customers? People switching carriers a couple times a year could cause financial hovak with the market. Churn hurts. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
I think the FCC should drop it and let capitalism take its course. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John J. Thomas Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:01 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Let's talk about this for a minute. When I signed up for my $24.95 DSL, ATT *gave* me a free DSL modem- if the rules change, that won't be able to happen anymore. If you, as a WISP say here are your options 1. Pay $299 install, and the client can do whatever they want 2. Pay $49 install and a *lease* fee of $22 per month, and the WISP owns the equipment How will you lose? John Thomas -Original Message- From: Scottie Arnett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 02:58 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes I agree Travis. This will hurt. The FCC seems to be overstepping their boundaries alot the last few months on many issues, and this is another area I think they should stay out of. Just my 2 cents. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:40:04 -0600 Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
When it is a regulation of common resources, like cellular spectrum, they have to attempt to enforce fairness and foster competition. Problem is when they craft a fix for cell or ILEC or IXC and it spills over into other areas they regulate. - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:35 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes I think the FCC should drop it and let capitalism take its course. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John J. Thomas Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:01 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Let's talk about this for a minute. When I signed up for my $24.95 DSL, ATT *gave* me a free DSL modem- if the rules change, that won't be able to happen anymore. If you, as a WISP say here are your options 1. Pay $299 install, and the client can do whatever they want 2. Pay $49 install and a *lease* fee of $22 per month, and the WISP owns the equipment How will you lose? John Thomas -Original Message- From: Scottie Arnett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 02:58 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes I agree Travis. This will hurt. The FCC seems to be overstepping their boundaries alot the last few months on many issues, and this is another area I think they should stay out of. Just my 2 cents. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:40:04 -0600 Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Ever since I started 4 yrs ago I have done $199 install and $35 a month. Last month I switched to $209 install and $35 a month (to help cover gas). I own the gear and go get it if they cancel. Brian John J. Thomas wrote: Let's talk about this for a minute. When I signed up for my $24.95 DSL, ATT *gave* me a free DSL modem- if the rules change, that won't be able to happen anymore. If you, as a WISP say here are your options 1. Pay $299 install, and the client can do whatever they want 2. Pay $49 install and a *lease* fee of $22 per month, and the WISP owns the equipment How will you lose? John Thomas -Original Message- From: Scottie Arnett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 02:58 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes I agree Travis. This will "hurt." The FCC seems to be overstepping their boundaries alot the last few months on many issues, and this is another area I think they should stay out of. Just my 2 cents. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:40:04 -0600 Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
That will still happen. We give many free installs and $49 installs. We have to to compete with Qwest and Comcast. I also provide a free DSL modem to all DSL customers. Depends on your scale and competition. Why would ATT not provide a free DSL modem? - Original Message - From: John J. Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 11:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Let's talk about this for a minute. When I signed up for my $24.95 DSL, ATT *gave* me a free DSL modem- if the rules change, that won't be able to happen anymore. If you, as a WISP say here are your options 1. Pay $299 install, and the client can do whatever they want 2. Pay $49 install and a *lease* fee of $22 per month, and the WISP owns the equipment How will you lose? John Thomas -Original Message- From: Scottie Arnett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 02:58 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes I agree Travis. This will hurt. The FCC seems to be overstepping their boundaries alot the last few months on many issues, and this is another area I think they should stay out of. Just my 2 cents. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:40:04 -0600 Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
I think that the FCC has a bona fide reason for addressing the early termination fee issue. The underlying concern is that early termination fees often do not reflect the true cost incurred by the contracting provider as a result of the subscriber's breach of contract. In reality, an early termination fee should be prorated over the course of the contract such that at the beginning of the contract term, the cost includes the full cost of equipment, installation, and acquisition which has been lost due to that customer. Whereas, as the subscriber nears the end of his term, there should be very little cost remaining to be recovered. The problems that arise are these: (1) Early termination fees are often too low to cover the full cost of the equipment/installation, so companies average-out losses by cost-shifting. For example assume Customer A and Customer B both sign up for 2 year terms with a $200.00 early termination fee and each received equipment and installation worth $350.00. Customer A drops in month 1, so the Service Provider loses its entire $350.00 investment. Customer B drops in month 23 so the Service Provider has recouped most 95% of its $350.00 investment. The Service Provider loses $150.00 on Customer A but gains roughly $182.00 by overcharging Customer B. This system shifts the cost burden from those who drop early to those who drop late. (2) Customers are usually not made aware of the costs of the equipment and installation that they are receiving as part of their package deal. If customer's understood that their neat new Razor phone actually costs $350.00, they might opt to keep their old phone longer or they might not buy at all. Similarly in the broadband arena, if the DSL subscriber understood that the DSL/Wireless router costs $100 and the DSLAM port costs $200, they might think twice before signing up for 2 years at $20.00 a month. (3) Providers lose some of their incentive to maintain quality service and/or customer service when they know that their clients are under an oppressive contract which limits their ability to choose an alternative provider. For example: If a provider knows that their customer is on a 2 year term with a $200.00 early termination fee and that provider charges the customer $40.00 per month for service, the provider has very little incentive to respond to the customer during the last 5 months of the contract. During that period, the provider stands to gain more from the early termination than they do through the subscription fees! Potential Solutions to these problems: (1)Require disclosure and option to pay actual installation, equipment, and acquisition fees in lieu of early termination fees. (2)Require that cancellation fees reflect the actual cost of installation, equipment, and acquisition fees. (This one is pretty idealistic. providers will almost always eat some cost and pass it along through subscription fees). (3)Require proration of early termination fees so that the cost-shifting described above CANNOT OCCUR. (4)Allow/Encourage/Require? competing providers to buy-out the prorated balance of any early termination fee for a new customer that wants to switch to that new provider. Often the cost of buying out a prorated balance will be less than the cost of new customer acquisition, so it would be a win-win for the new provider and the new customer. (5)Encourage interoperability of equipment between providers or provide some realistic secondary market for customer equipment so that costs of switching carriers could be mitigated. Make locking phones and/or CPE illegal wherever the customer owns the equipment. (6)Provide a mechanism for regulation of minimum standards of service, if a provider cannot meet the minimum standard of service then a customer should be released from his contract without penalty and the equipment should be returned to the provider. a.This idea could be established in the cell phone industry by recording a baseline of coverage within the first 30 days of new service and comparing changes in coverage to that first 30 day baseline. If the coverage drops significantly from the baseline then the customer would have a basis for dropping without penalty. In the fixed wireless business, this process could be more difficult due to the uncertainty of outside interference, but the concept remains the same. Set a baseline, set a minimum threshold and create a procedure for testing against that threshold. Well that's my two cents worth. hopefully some of these ideas make it through to the powers-that-be in D.C. Larry Yunker, J.D. Network Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 11:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] FCC changes This could turn in to something it shouldn't really fast...
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Or really, the consumer could just read the contract before they sign it. Problem solved. ;) Travis Microserv Larry Yunker wrote: I think that the FCC has a bona fide reason for addressing the early termination fee issue. The underlying concern is that early termination fees often do not reflect the true cost incurred by the contracting provider as a result of the subscriber's breach of contract. In reality, an early termination fee should be prorated over the course of the contract such that at the beginning of the contract term, the cost includes the full cost of equipment, installation, and acquisition which has been lost due to that customer. Whereas, as the subscriber nears the end of his term, there should be very little cost remaining to be recovered. The problems that arise are these: (1) Early termination fees are often too low to cover the full cost of the equipment/installation, so companies average-out losses by cost-shifting. For example assume Customer A and Customer B both sign up for 2 year terms with a $200.00 early termination fee and each received equipment and installation worth $350.00. Customer A drops in month 1, so the Service Provider loses its entire $350.00 investment. Customer B drops in month 23 so the Service Provider has recouped most 95% of its $350.00 investment. The Service Provider loses $150.00 on Customer A but gains roughly $182.00 by overcharging Customer B. This system shifts the cost burden from those who drop early to those who drop late. (2) Customers are usually not made aware of the costs of the equipment and installation that they are receiving as part of their package deal. If customer's understood that their neat new Razor phone actually costs $350.00, they might opt to keep their old phone longer or they might not buy at all. Similarly in the broadband arena, if the DSL subscriber understood that the DSL/Wireless router costs $100 and the DSLAM port costs $200, they might think twice before signing up for 2 years at $20.00 a month. (3) Providers lose some of their incentive to maintain quality service and/or customer service when they know that their clients are under an oppressive contract which limits their ability to choose an alternative provider. For example: If a provider knows that their customer is on a 2 year term with a $200.00 early termination fee and that provider charges the customer $40.00 per month for service, the provider has very little incentive to respond to the customer during the last 5 months of the contract. During that period, the provider stands to gain more from the early termination than they do through the subscription fees! Potential Solutions to these problems: (1)Require disclosure and option to pay actual installation, equipment, and acquisition fees in lieu of early termination fees. (2)Require that cancellation fees reflect the actual cost of installation, equipment, and acquisition fees. (This one is pretty idealistic. providers will almost always eat some cost and pass it along through subscription fees). (3)Require proration of early termination fees so that the cost-shifting described above CANNOT OCCUR. (4)Allow/Encourage/Require? competing providers to buy-out the prorated balance of any early termination fee for a new customer that wants to switch to that new provider. Often the cost of buying out a prorated balance will be less than the cost of new customer acquisition, so it would be a win-win for the new provider and the new customer. (5)Encourage interoperability of equipment between providers or provide some realistic secondary market for customer equipment so that costs of switching carriers could be mitigated. Make locking phones and/or CPE illegal wherever the customer owns the equipment. (6)Provide a mechanism for regulation of minimum standards of service, if a provider cannot meet the minimum standard of service then a customer should be released from his contract without penalty and the equipment should be returned to the provider. a.This idea could be established in the cell phone industry by recording a baseline of coverage within the first 30 days of new service and comparing changes in coverage to that first 30 day baseline. If the coverage drops significantly from the baseline then the customer would have a basis for dropping without penalty. In the fixed wireless business, this process could be more difficult due to the uncertainty of outside interference, but the concept remains the same. Set a baseline, set a minimum threshold and create a procedure for testing against that threshold. Well that's my two cents worth. hopefully some of these ideas make it through to the powers-that-be in D.C. Larry Yunker, J.D. Network Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
For us, the issue is the pickup and de-installation of the equipment. We have customers 2+ hours drive away from our office. If they sign up and pay $49 for install (we already lose $50 for the time to install it), and only keep it for a month, then I have lost several hundred dollars on that customer by rolling a truck TWICE, setting up billing, contract time, installer time, etc. and there is no way to recover those costs. Travis Microserv John J. Thomas wrote: Let's talk about this for a minute. When I signed up for my $24.95 DSL, ATT *gave* me a free DSL modem- if the rules change, that won't be able to happen anymore. If you, as a WISP say here are your options 1. Pay $299 install, and the client can do whatever they want 2. Pay $49 install and a *lease* fee of $22 per month, and the WISP owns the equipment How will you lose? John Thomas -Original Message- From: Scottie Arnett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 02:58 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes I agree Travis. This will "hurt." The FCC seems to be overstepping their boundaries alot the last few months on many issues, and this is another area I think they should stay out of. Just my 2 cents. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:40:04 -0600 Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Travis, I agree wholeheartedly that a customer should be held to the terms of a contract and certainly should be responsible for reading and accepting the terms of the agreement. The issue is that some contracts are designed to penalize rather than recoup costs. The measure of a breach of contract is always supposed to be the loss on that individual contract not a penalty to help cover the costs lost on other contracts. (i.e. the cost shifting discussed below). Absent some showing of fraud or similar abuse, there are no penalties recognized at law in contracts. So, to the extent that a termination fee is imposed to penalize an unwilling party to the contract, the fee is invalid. - Larry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Or really, the consumer could just read the contract before they sign it. Problem solved. ;) Travis Microserv Larry Yunker wrote: I think that the FCC has a bona fide reason for addressing the early termination fee issue. The underlying concern is that early termination fees often do not reflect the true cost incurred by the contracting provider as a result of the subscriber's breach of contract. In reality, an early termination fee should be prorated over the course of the contract such that at the beginning of the contract term, the cost includes the full cost of equipment, installation, and acquisition which has been lost due to that customer. Whereas, as the subscriber nears the end of his term, there should be very little cost remaining to be recovered. The problems that arise are these: (1) Early termination fees are often too low to cover the full cost of the equipment/installation, so companies average-out losses by cost-shifting. For example assume Customer A and Customer B both sign up for 2 year terms with a $200.00 early termination fee and each received equipment and installation worth $350.00. Customer A drops in month 1, so the Service Provider loses its entire $350.00 investment. Customer B drops in month 23 so the Service Provider has recouped most 95% of its $350.00 investment. The Service Provider loses $150.00 on Customer A but gains roughly $182.00 by overcharging Customer B. This system shifts the cost burden from those who drop early to those who drop late. (2) Customers are usually not made aware of the costs of the equipment and installation that they are receiving as part of their package deal. If customer's understood that their neat new Razor phone actually costs $350.00, they might opt to keep their old phone longer or they might not buy at all. Similarly in the broadband arena, if the DSL subscriber understood that the DSL/Wireless router costs $100 and the DSLAM port costs $200, they might think twice before signing up for 2 years at $20.00 a month. (3) Providers lose some of their incentive to maintain quality service and/or customer service when they know that their clients are under an oppressive contract which limits their ability to choose an alternative provider. For example: If a provider knows that their customer is on a 2 year term with a $200.00 early termination fee and that provider charges the customer $40.00 per month for service, the provider has very little incentive to respond to the customer during the last 5 months of the contract. During that period, the provider stands to gain more from the early termination than they do through the subscription fees! Potential Solutions to these problems: (1)Require disclosure and option to pay actual installation, equipment, and acquisition fees in lieu of early termination fees. (2)Require that cancellation fees reflect the actual cost of installation, equipment, and acquisition fees. (This one is pretty idealistic. providers will almost always eat some cost and pass it along through subscription fees). (3)Require proration of early termination fees so that the cost-shifting described above CANNOT OCCUR. (4)Allow/Encourage/Require? competing providers to buy-out the prorated balance of any early termination fee for a new customer that wants to switch to that new provider. Often the cost of buying out a prorated balance will be less than the cost of new customer acquisition, so it would be a win-win for the new provider and the new customer. (5)Encourage interoperability of equipment between providers or provide some realistic secondary market for customer equipment so that costs of switching carriers could be mitigated. Make locking phones and/or CPE illegal wherever the customer owns the equipment. (6)Provide a mechanism for regulation of minimum standards of service, if a provider cannot meet the minimum standard of service then a customer should be released from his contract without penalty
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Larry Yunker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes I think that the FCC has a bona fide reason for addressing the early termination fee issue. The underlying concern is that early termination fees often do not reflect the true cost incurred by the contracting provider as a result of the subscriber's breach of contract. I can only answer... So? It is not the FCC's job to ensure that profits are not made. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Larry Yunker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Travis, I agree wholeheartedly that a customer should be held to the terms of a contract and certainly should be responsible for reading and accepting the terms of the agreement. The issue is that some contracts are designed to penalize rather than recoup costs. Again... So? It is not the job of government to ensure that everything a customer chooses to do is made fair for him. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Whether it is the job of the FCC to ensure fairness with regards to telecommunications contracts is yet to be determined. Traditionally, STATE COURTS have resolved contractual disputes. However, in 2005, a cell carrier named SunCom filed a petition with the FCC asking the FCC to declare that early termination fees fall under rate charged doctrine and therefore fall under the exclusive jurisdiction of the FCC (thus blocking STATE COURTS from rendering decisions against the cell carrier). The FCC has held comment on the issue and was thought to be getting close to a ruling on the issue when SunCom suddenly and unexpectedly SETTLED their case (March 21, 2008) with their client(s) and dropped the petition for the declaratory ruling. The net effect is that the FCC hasn't decided whether early termination fees as a contractual issue are strictly a FEDERAL issue to be decided by the FCC or if they are a traditional common law issue to be decided at the state level. The meetings later this month may shed some further light on how ETF's will be adjudicated in the future. It certainly appears that the FCC is moving towards regulation of the marketplace. Don't take my comments to be weighing in favor of FCC regulation of this issue. I believe that state courts could certainly resolve these disputes just as well as the FCC (albeit inconsistently across state lines). Common law contract law as well as consumer protection statutes would address many of the concerns that have been raised with regards to early termination fees. The problem that we have today is that many state federal courts have placed litigation regarding early termination fees on hold UNTIL the FCC declares whether or not they are going to completely preempt the field of telecommunication termination fees. This indecision by the FCC has held up litigation for up to three years in state and federal courts. The main thing that we need right now is definitive action of some sort so that subscribers have rights either in state court or before the FCC and so that PROVIDERS have some sense of direction with regards to their obligations or limitations under common law and regulatory regimes. - Larry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:12 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Larry Yunker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Travis, I agree wholeheartedly that a customer should be held to the terms of a contract and certainly should be responsible for reading and accepting the terms of the agreement. The issue is that some contracts are designed to penalize rather than recoup costs. Again... So? It is not the job of government to ensure that everything a customer chooses to do is made fair for him. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Well lets say we can't charge early termination anymore, We are back to charging $300/install and paying $400 for a cellphone. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 11:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] FCC changes This could turn in to something it shouldn't really fast... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/30/AR2008053002 776.html We charge 100% of the remaining contract because we are eating the cost on the equipment and rolling a truck (for both installation and pickup). Now they want to regulate how much we can charge for early termination. :( Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Exactly... which will pretty much stop our installs... cable, DSL and WiMAX providers will continue to do free installs. Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Well lets say we can't charge early termination anymore, We are back to charging $300/install and paying $400 for a cellphone. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 11:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] FCC changes This could turn in to something it shouldn't really fast... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/30/AR2008053002 776.html We charge 100% of the remaining contract because we are eating the cost on the equipment and rolling a truck (for both installation and pickup). Now they want to regulate how much we can charge for early termination. :( Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Well, our cheapest install has always been $200 and I just raised it to $250. Prices go up from there. We also have a 1 month ROI on our installs. (install fee + 1st month service pays for the install) We also do not do contracts... everything is month to month. While the price of the install can be a barrier, it also screens out a lot of those who will not pay their monthly bill. Travis Johnson wrote: Exactly... which will pretty much stop our installs... cable, DSL and WiMAX providers will continue to do free installs. Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Well lets say we can't charge early termination anymore, We are back to charging $300/install and paying $400 for a cellphone. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 11:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] FCC changes This could turn in to something it shouldn't really fast... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/30/AR2008053002 776.html We charge 100% of the remaining contract because we are eating the cost on the equipment and rolling a truck (for both installation and pickup). Now they want to regulate how much we can charge for early termination. :( Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Hi, For whatever it's worth, we have often followed the cell companies in many ways (not intentionally, it just seems to work out that way). We are often on towers close to their towers, we often follow the same backhaul paths that they use, etc. We also followed their activation/billing practices starting about 5 years ago. We charge a small install fee (usually $99) and then make the customer sign at least a 1 year contract, with benefits for 2 and 3 year contracts. We then make a profit on the customer the very first month and every month afterwards, and have them in a contract (which makes the customer worth something if you ever look at selling). Customers not in a contract are worth about 50% less because they could easily switch during or after the sale of the business. We did 160 installs in April, so we must be doing something right. This FCC thing could cause a lot of companies problems because it would completely upset the current business model. How many people will sign up for cell service if they have to buy a $300 cell phone? The days of the "free" phone will be gone. Travis Microserv Blair Davis wrote: Well, our cheapest install has always been $200 and I just raised it to $250. Prices go up from there. We also have a 1 month ROI on our installs. (install fee + 1st month service pays for the install) We also do not do contracts... everything is month to month. While the price of the install can be a barrier, it also screens out a lot of those who will not pay their monthly bill. Travis Johnson wrote: Exactly... which will pretty much stop our installs... cable, DSL and WiMAX providers will continue to do free installs. Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Well lets say we can't charge early termination anymore, We are back to charging $300/install and paying $400 for a cellphone. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 11:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] FCC changes This could turn in to something it shouldn't really fast... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/30/AR2008053002 776.html We charge 100% of the remaining contract because we are eating the cost on the equipment and rolling a truck (for both installation and pickup). Now they want to regulate how much we can charge for early termination. :( Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
I'm sure you are much larger than I! If I can ask, in that same time period, April, how many disconnects (for non-payment) and quits did you have? I've made it a point to avoid churn and most often only loose a user when cable or DSL comes into his area with their $14.95 a month deal... Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, For whatever it's worth, we have often followed the cell companies in many ways (not intentionally, it just seems to work out that way). We are often on towers close to their towers, we often follow the same backhaul paths that they use, etc. We also followed their activation/billing practices starting about 5 years ago. We charge a small install fee (usually $99) and then make the customer sign at least a 1 year contract, with benefits for 2 and 3 year contracts. We then make a profit on the customer the very first month and every month afterwards, and have them in a contract (which makes the customer worth something if you ever look at selling). Customers not in a contract are worth about 50% less because they could easily switch during or after the sale of the business. We did 160 installs in April, so we must be doing something right. This FCC thing could cause a lot of companies problems because it would completely upset the current business model. How many people will sign up for cell service if they have to buy a $300 cell phone? The days of the free phone will be gone. Travis Microserv Blair Davis wrote: Well, our cheapest install has always been $200 and I just raised it to $250. Prices go up from there. We also have a 1 month ROI on our installs. (install fee + 1st month service pays for the install) We also do not do contracts... everything is month to month. While the price of the install can be a barrier, it also screens out a lot of those who will not pay their monthly bill. Travis Johnson wrote: Exactly... which will pretty much stop our installs... cable, DSL and WiMAX providers will continue to do free installs. Travis Microserv Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Well lets say we can't charge early termination anymore, We are back to charging $300/install and paying $400 for a cellphone. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 11:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] FCC changes This could turn in to something it shouldn't really fast... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/30/AR2008053002 776.html We charge 100% of the remaining contract because we are eating the cost on the equipment and rolling a truck (for both installation and pickup). Now they want to regulate how much we can charge for early termination. :( Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
I agree Travis. This will hurt. The FCC seems to be overstepping their boundaries alot the last few months on many issues, and this is another area I think they should stay out of. Just my 2 cents. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:40:04 -0600 Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Travis, Put a different name on it like Equipment removal fee and drive on. Frank - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 8:51 PM Subject: [WISPA] FCC changes This could turn in to something it shouldn't really fast... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/30/AR2008053002776.html We charge 100% of the remaining contract because we are eating the cost on the equipment and rolling a truck (for both installation and pickup). Now they want to regulate how much we can charge for early termination. :( Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
I personally would love to see this pass FCC. Large companies have a huge advantage over Small providers, because Money is cheap to them, so they CAN fincance gears, and do the give aways. I'd like it to be more painful for them to give it away. I hate this perception that Equipment should be free. What would likely occur though is that the large companies would just add a second line item lease fee, and say OK Cancel, but its your phone, so continue paying the lease for a phone that you can't use. Personally I think the bigger racket is unique connector concept, where every new Phone model has a different charger connector. Not only is it not portable between providers, but its not portable to new models within the same provider. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Frank Crawford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes Travis, Put a different name on it like Equipment removal fee and drive on. Frank - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 8:51 PM Subject: [WISPA] FCC changes This could turn in to something it shouldn't really fast... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/30/AR2008053002776.html We charge 100% of the remaining contract because we are eating the cost on the equipment and rolling a truck (for both installation and pickup). Now they want to regulate how much we can charge for early termination. :( Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Did we learn nothing from my last outburst?We can't say the FCC is overstepping it's bounds, that's just radical conspiracy style politics, remember? And if we tell the FCC it has overstepped it's bounds, the poor souls we send to DC will just be twisting in the wind, red-faced at our redneck-ish non-compliance. Or, perhaps I was right.Give an inch, they take a mile and we get NADA in return. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes I agree Travis. This will hurt. The FCC seems to be overstepping their boundaries alot the last few months on many issues, and this is another area I think they should stay out of. Just my 2 cents. Scottie WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC changes
Let's talk about this for a minute. When I signed up for my $24.95 DSL, ATT *gave* me a free DSL modem- if the rules change, that won't be able to happen anymore. If you, as a WISP say here are your options 1. Pay $299 install, and the client can do whatever they want 2. Pay $49 install and a *lease* fee of $22 per month, and the WISP owns the equipment How will you lose? John Thomas -Original Message- From: Scottie Arnett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 02:58 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC changes I agree Travis. This will hurt. The FCC seems to be overstepping their boundaries alot the last few months on many issues, and this is another area I think they should stay out of. Just my 2 cents. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:40:04 -0600 Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach
There is two paths to take young kirk.
Wise one is to avoid that path altogether.
Confucius say better to consult your cpa than your lawyer
{BONG}
Kurt Fankhauser wrote:
Or perhaps you are one of those that doesn't believe the govt has the
right
to impose an imcome tax...
I don't know if you are aware of this but there is no law requiring you to
pay income tax, have you ever read any of the U.S. code? Why do you think
they want to pass a federal sales tax so bad, cause all this is coming out
on the internet and people are starting to stop paying the income tax. Just
type income tax on Youtube.
Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 2
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 12:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA]FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach
While at it, bill the IRS for your time in filling out their data requests
which they will use against you.
Ditto the census bureau, you must be really steamed when they roll around...
Or perhaps you are one of those that doesn't believe the govt has the right
to impose an imcome tax...
I feel godwins law about to be invoked. Tinfoil hats anyone...
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Re: [WISPA] FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach
That was what Wesley Snipes thought... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 1:27 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach Or perhaps you are one of those that doesn't believe the govt has the right to impose an imcome tax... I don't know if you are aware of this but there is no law requiring you to pay income tax, have you ever read any of the U.S. code? Why do you think they want to pass a federal sales tax so bad, cause all this is coming out on the internet and people are starting to stop paying the income tax. Just type income tax on Youtube. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 2 Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 12:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA]FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach While at it, bill the IRS for your time in filling out their data requests which they will use against you. Ditto the census bureau, you must be really steamed when they roll around... Or perhaps you are one of those that doesn't believe the govt has the right to impose an imcome tax... I feel godwins law about to be invoked. Tinfoil hats anyone... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach
Compensation yes, I'm not convinced it's always just. I have a particular problem when property is taken from one private citizen to be given to another (redevelopment). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 2 Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 12:47 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA]FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach without just compensation It is taken every day of the week. And we always provide just compensation - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA]FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach ...nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. I don't consider that negotiable. Just wanted to be clear with you about what part I referred to. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 2 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA]FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach I think you should re-read the constitution. Interstate commerce, eminent domain. I can come (as a public utility) and TAKE your property. Read it. 5th amendment. (not just for pleading the fifth). (And I have done this in the past when forced into it). You want to use the commons of the nation, prepare to be regulated. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA]FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach Below. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA]FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach Hold your horses there a bit, the FCC is tasked to produce the highest and best use for the public commonly held electromagnetic spectrum. This is accomplished by mandating we work for free? I'm sorry, Did you not read the Consitution? My time, my labor, my work, my intellectual property, my money, etc, ARE NEVER TO BE TAKEN. They have a stewardship and are trying to do their job. And? We exist due to the relaxation of their modulation regulations and the fact they continually elbow the hams off their turf. This is covered by the legal doctrine of the commons. I can remember when spread spectrum was not allowed (not too long ago). I can remember when the ISM bands were created. The FCC is our friend, whether or not you believe it. Friend? NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! If you ever think that, you have become a comfortable slave. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach
Sigh, I'm glad you are the moderator Rick. Ron Wallace Hahnron, Inc. 220 S. Jackson Dt. Addison, MI 49220 Phone: (517)547-8410 Mobile: (517)605-4542 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Rick Harnish [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 04:16 PM To: ''WISPA General List'' Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach It looks like Mark from Neofast is back disguised as muddyfrogwater. How fun is this? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 4:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach Im going to repost a response I made privately, leaving off the other person... I want to be clear what's really bothering me lately. == Maybe I should be more clear. I fail to see why I should have to conduct even 1 minute's free labor... The results of which are going to result absolutely NO benefit to me, and then we'll all get to see some politicians claim credit for the spread of broadband, even though that spread has been solely the result of some of us working our butts off, and risking our own money and 12 hour days. I can find absolutely no reason to think that ANY of us are going to benefit from this. T he only people who could possibly benefit, would be the Qwest's and the Clearwires of the world, who have publicly financed expansion research done for them. I doubt any of us, save a handful who cover large areas, could benefit at all. I know I make my expansions based on on-the-ground efforts, going to door to door and finding out who has broadband, who doesn't and then figuring out how to fill the gaps, some of which are as small as a housing development with 10 houses in it. This will never be figured out by the FCC or any agency. I'm DOING the work that needs to be done. Why on earth should I do free labor while doing it? But I'll bet that on a more macro scale, all we do is provide the directions for bigger guys deciding what towns or cities to deploy in without spending a dime in research. I know I buy a lot of $140 (and climbing) tanks of diesel to find areas not covered and then cover them, and then go to door to door to sign up people. I have perhaps 20,000 peo ple in my targeted market, which covers everything from farms and vineyards to forested mountains, and it's an hour and a half to drive across from the farthest customers now, and in a fe months it's going to be close to two hours. So, why on earth should I then be required to expend more time and effort and possibly money, just to tell someone else where to go for free? Perhaps I'm just irked because the heavy hand of both state and federal govenrments is coming down on a lot of what we do - I may soon need a contractor's license and AND hire a licensed electrician... to be a WISP, of all things. If that's the case, my customers will become unserved. And there is NOBODY in my corner fighting this either federally or at the state level. Rather, every organization I've uncovered is just nodding and smiling like some lobotomized sheep. - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 1 :19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach I agree, I would also like to know the position of WISPA. It looks like another great way for some company to make extra income off of my already short bottom line. The current reporting is a pain but can be completed in an hour or so. I am not privileged to have GIS software and data setting around for all my data to interface with. Besides in my area the census track is larger then the ZIP's. So they will get less exact data. Steve Barnes Executive Manager PCS-WIN RCWiFi Wireless Internet Service (765)584-2288 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 3:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA]FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach I'm curious to know WISPA's official position on this is. Looking back in the archives, I see little discussion about this, but the only way this information is going to be obtained, is if ISP's are required to determine the location of each census unit and then plot on maps of the census unit each customer and count them up. At this moment, I have no idea what a census unit is, how it is determined, or even how to find out that information, much less plot hundreds of customers spread over thousands of square miles. Frankly, I haven't the time. Unless software exists to automate this, this is going to be rather man-hour intensive for anyone with more than 20 broadband customers. Is WISPA going to lobby
Re: [WISPA] FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach
I don't know if you are aware of this but there is no law requiring you to pay income tax, have you ever read any of the U.S. code? Why do you think they want to pass a federal sales tax so bad, cause all this is coming out on the internet and people are starting to stop paying the income tax. Just type income tax on Youtube. That is why Wesley Snipes is going to jail for 3 years... On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or perhaps you are one of those that doesn't believe the govt has the right to impose an imcome tax... I don't know if you are aware of this but there is no law requiring you to pay income tax, have you ever read any of the U.S. code? Why do you think they want to pass a federal sales tax so bad, cause all this is coming out on the internet and people are starting to stop paying the income tax. Just type income tax on Youtube. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 2 Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 12:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA]FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach While at it, bill the IRS for your time in filling out their data requests which they will use against you. Ditto the census bureau, you must be really steamed when they roll around... Or perhaps you are one of those that doesn't believe the govt has the right to impose an imcome tax... I feel godwins law about to be invoked. Tinfoil hats anyone... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Victoria Proffer CEO St. Louis Broadband Visit us @ www.StLBroadband.com 314-974-5600 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach
Your wrong, Wesley Snipes is going to jail for 3 years because a JURY felt he should. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Victoria Proffer Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 10:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach I don't know if you are aware of this but there is no law requiring you to pay income tax, have you ever read any of the U.S. code? Why do you think they want to pass a federal sales tax so bad, cause all this is coming out on the internet and people are starting to stop paying the income tax. Just type income tax on Youtube. That is why Wesley Snipes is going to jail for 3 years... On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or perhaps you are one of those that doesn't believe the govt has the right to impose an imcome tax... I don't know if you are aware of this but there is no law requiring you to pay income tax, have you ever read any of the U.S. code? Why do you think they want to pass a federal sales tax so bad, cause all this is coming out on the internet and people are starting to stop paying the income tax. Just type income tax on Youtube. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 2 Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 12:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA]FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach While at it, bill the IRS for your time in filling out their data requests which they will use against you. Ditto the census bureau, you must be really steamed when they roll around... Or perhaps you are one of those that doesn't believe the govt has the right to impose an imcome tax... I feel godwins law about to be invoked. Tinfoil hats anyone... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Victoria Proffer CEO St. Louis Broadband Visit us @ www.StLBroadband.com 314-974-5600 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach
Then The JURY members were uneducated boobs... a little reading and it is very evident he should not be in jail.part of the scare tactic the IRS uses every yearsad but true If one wanted to read more http://www.originalintent.org/ Chuck Moses -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser Sent: May 19, 2008 10:45 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach Your wrong, Wesley Snipes is going to jail for 3 years because a JURY felt he should. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Victoria Proffer Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 10:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach I don't know if you are aware of this but there is no law requiring you to pay income tax, have you ever read any of the U.S. code? Why do you think they want to pass a federal sales tax so bad, cause all this is coming out on the internet and people are starting to stop paying the income tax. Just type income tax on Youtube. That is why Wesley Snipes is going to jail for 3 years... On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or perhaps you are one of those that doesn't believe the govt has the right to impose an imcome tax... I don't know if you are aware of this but there is no law requiring you to pay income tax, have you ever read any of the U.S. code? Why do you think they want to pass a federal sales tax so bad, cause all this is coming out on the internet and people are starting to stop paying the income tax. Just type income tax on Youtube. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 2 Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 12:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA]FCC approves new method for tracking broadband's reach While at it, bill the IRS for your time in filling out their data requests which they will use against you. Ditto the census bureau, you must be really steamed when they roll around... Or perhaps you are one of those that doesn't believe the govt has the right to impose an imcome tax... I feel godwins law about to be invoked. Tinfoil hats anyone... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Victoria Proffer CEO St. Louis Broadband Visit us @ www.StLBroadband.com 314-974-5600 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ __ NOD32 3110 (20080519) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
