Scott Swabey - Lafinboy Productions wrote:
The building codes analogy is one I often use myself, but as pointed out
already, it does fall flat when asked for the governing bodies that are
policing the web.
When faced with a client/agency/designer that doesn't (want to/need to)
understand the
Hi!
In our project we need to give a reasonably book-alike presentation of
printed book pages on the web. We've managed to rather accurately style
xml resources but for one minor (?) exception. We cannot find a way to
give an arbitrary element the characteristics of the html br element.
I
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 3:40 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
On 12/5/05, Ric Jude Raftis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The
HiYou want a line break? How about fiddling with the element's white-space attribute..HTHJamesOn 12/6/05, Torgny Rasmark
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi!In our project we need to give a reasonably book-alike presentation of
printed book pages on the web. We've managed to rather accurately stylexml
Torgny Rasmark wrote:
We cannot find a way to give an arbitrary element the characteristics of the html
br element.
CSS 2.1, section 12.2 [1] states:
| Authors may include newlines in the generated content by writing
| the \A escape sequence in one of the strings after the 'content'
|
Donna,in another thread, someone essentially asked "why code like this", in trying to convince a friend. I don't think he's getting very good answers but at any rate, it made me think of a "problem" I'm having and I've decided to make a new thread. I've noticed that responses to your similar
Hi Andreas,
None of the general public cares about whether our sites are AAA compliant,
whether they follow any standards or guidelines or not. What they want is a
site that works.
True and so they should have.
If you buy a washing machine and it tells you This washing machine follows
Artemis,
If you're moving to Firefox then you can install the 'HMTL Tidy'
extension the list have informed you of, this hopefully will help when
hand-coding in the followingopen source software I'm
recommending:
Notepad++
http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/uk/site.htm
Download
Bob wrote:
I've noticed that
responses to your similar "dilemma" have been quite
exhaustive.
Bob,
It may of helped you but I'm doubtful it has convinced
Donna?
That would be a better discussion - why with so much evidence to the
contrary, can the list not convince Donna to fight the PR
Hi Seona
I guess one reason you have had no replies is that the page does
not validate. This may not be the cause of the problem, but it's
a starting point (I'm not blaming, just observing)
For the rest, it's difficult (read: time-consuming) to go through
a 21kB CSS file to find what may
Alex James wrote:
That would be a better discussion - why with so much evidence to the contrary, can the list not convince Donna to fight the PR agency?
I don't actually think it's a fight she wants to have or necessarily
should undertake. Donna didn't ask us to bolster her up; she asked
Dear All,
Let you know why this problem is coming. Actually I am
a bit busy with my work, if not I would have sent the
cause.
Regards,
Malla
--- Ben Wong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's because the code is being executed before the
tags with the
matching ids are created.
On 12/6/05, Chris
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
But if that comparison is inaccurate or outright misleading ...
...
I'm not sure if getting a contract because of FUD is the right way to go.
Which is why careful licence must be applied to the analogies used.
Explaining something in terms that the listener can relate
Now that is a pearl Mark! Is it copyrightLOL.
Regards,
Ric
Mark Harris wrote:
You can lead a client to knowledge, but you can't make them think!
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See
On 06/12/2005, at 5:32 PM, Donna Jones wrote:
Thanks again for your kind note and understanding.
and, very timely, Roger Johansson at 456 Berea st has covered the
same topic today -
Ten reasons to learn and use web standards
[http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200512/
You are absolutely correct Andreas. Bit the same as an Australian
Safety Standard, or Certificate of Electrical Compliance and the myriad
of other bits of pieces of terminology and standards that we live with
every day. But if we don't educate the public, how will they ever
learn. The tag
Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Donna Jones said:
A non-profit that i've maintained the website for for 8 years or so has
recently...hired a PR firm.
Why do the PR firm think they should maintain the site and not you?
Have they put forward any compelling reasons why they are better
On 12/6/05, Torgny Rasmark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In our project we need to give a reasonably book-alike presentation of
printed book pages on the web. We've managed to rather accurately style
xml resources but for one minor (?) exception. We cannot find a way to
give an arbitrary element
Also make sure you look at css drop down examples at www.alistapart.com
. I think there's stuff about using position:relative or z-index to get
it going right.
Buddy
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bert Doorn
Sent: Tuesday, December
I thought of a number of points relating to this standards issue...
The icons by w3c and others are meaningless and are a problem. They
need to have meaning to the reader. The average web visitor doesn't
even know that the W3C exists, let alone that they make recommendations
or determine
If a search page were to only have one piece of Javascript attached to
it (more specifically to the body-onload event) :
document.F.Q.focus();
Should this be placed in a separate JavaScript file in order to make it
more manageable, or just declared inline?
Stephen
Separation separation separation!
Use the DOM an onload function and some unobtrusive javascript. I'm
my experience you will always want to add more javascript. Keep
behavour layer separate.
Richard
DonkeyMagic: Website design development
http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk
On 12/6/05, Stephen
Hi Barry not sure if this would be what you were after but i have just
published an article about creating a DOM pagejump menu that works on
all modern browsers and degrades back to a list of links if there is
no javascript support.
http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk/index.php?story=67. Thought it that
If I wanted new windows in my house I'd buy from the BS Standard compliant company every time, wouldn't you ?
The thing is though,if I click on the BS Standard logo it can't prove to me that the company is actually compliant , however in our industry, we as web designers can use our W3C logos
I am currently working on a liquid format for my site.
Just doing up the header at the moment. It is ok in FF but IE6 is not happy
with it. I have yet to check with other browsers so the focus in on these 2
browsers at the moment.
In FF I have no issues with things going whacky when I hover on
That is a nice script Richard. I have spent a while trying to get this one
to work, I am sure its something obvious sigh
http://www.compassdesigns.net/4corners/NASCAR_Champions.html
Its only breaking in IE so its good old Microsoft again somewhere!
Barrie North
Compass Design
The other problem with the validation logos is that they don't always
mean that the page is valid. In my experience, a large number of sites
with these logos don't serve valid code and fail the test that they link
to.
I think that this analog with the construction world is not really
Lachain,
I sort of get it but...
Below are a couple of real world (my world, anyway) javascripts,
could you re-do them as per Good, then I would have an example for
reference that I could closely relate to.
These connected to a linked JS in the head:
1. a href=http://www.fotografics.it;
Donna Jones wrote:
...but, yes, back to my problem child non-profit. It may be time to
let it go, it is hard to see them get a poor website and pay a fair
amount of money for it ... it is also hard to validate myself and get
them to know that i do know what i'm doing, at least tons more than
Robert O'Neill wrote:
If I wanted new windows in my house I'd buy from the BS Standard
compliant company every time, wouldn't you ?
Well I dunno? I am in Canada and I am assuming this might be the same
as the Canadian Standards Association (CSA). In North America BS stands
for
Thanks for the advice, guys. I'll have a look into it all and see what
I can do. Or maybe I'll just try and convince my boss that it's not too
long before we completely redesign the site, so we should just wait and
redo it properly then. ;)
Cheers,
Seona.
On 07/12/2005, at 4:13 AM, Jay Gilmore wrote:
I don't really have a problem with the W3C logos per se, except we
cannot expect them to have any impact on anyone other than the
already converted. If you are placing them there as some hope to
convince a business owner to switch to you because
Position:absolute;
... in the right place of course
Barrie North
Compass Design
www.compassdesigns.net
~Professional, affordable web design~
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Barrie North
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:45 PM
To:
Here are some excellent resources
1. http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/
2. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dropdowns/ (original version)
3. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/taminglists/
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
have you ever seen a house with a huge sign on it: This
house is standards compliant?
No, but washing machines, fridges and cars are all now displaying
stickers that advise of their efficiency in terms of an industry
and government agreed star rating
Peter Williams wrote:
From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
have you ever seen a house with a huge sign on it: This
house is standards compliant?
No, but washing machines, fridges and cars are all now displaying
stickers that advise of their efficiency in terms of an industry
and
On 12/6/05, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards
would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue
companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and
customers realize that getting it wrong
Christian Montoya wrote:
On 12/6/05, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards
would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue
companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and
customers
Peter Williams wrote:
1 star for content to markup ratio
1 star for validation of markup and css
These two should be able to be automated, just like the w3c validator.
1 star for accessibility
1 star for semantic markup
1 star for ? suggestions from the audience required.
These three
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Peter Williams wrote:
1 star for content to markup ratio
1 star for validation of markup and css
Let the market regulate itself. Let standards-compliant markup sites
take over because of their benefits actually manifesting themselves
(easier to maintain,
IMO the way forward is not to let others fight your fights (disabled vs
bad site owners) but to pick up the glove and fight back yourself...
together with others.
I think Lea's idea about a badge is not bad. I came to think of the
Dogme Manifesto (wonder why) and maybe something in that
Stephen Stagg:
A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility
standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled
people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible
sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it
wrong will cost them, I'm sure that
Ok. let's just take a step back and put this all in perspective:
We already have a rating system with A - AAA conformence and the pretty
badges to go with it.
In Australia we have HREOC, and we know there's been a successful test case,
which was widely publicised.
Who really pays attention to
Personally, I don't think the logos Do It - they are too techie and
Joe Average doesn't see what they mean.
i like the approach of this site that uses
text links(footer) in the overal style of the site
http://www.monc.se/work/
**
The
The whole deal about putting buttons on websites we make for clients is
in my humble opinion quite retarded. You're directing traffic straight
out of your clients website and to a page where they go Wha? All of a
sudden you lost the user. Put those damn buttons on your own webpage if
you
Bob Schwartz wrote:
Below are a couple of real world (my world, anyway) javascripts, could
you re-do them as per Good, then I would have an example for
reference that I could closely relate to.
These connected to a linked JS in the head:
1. a href=http://www.fotografics.it;
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa
Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2005 10:15 AM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
We work this way because it's best
I think there is still a mentality of any of those awards/certified/compliant buttons just being a click stealer.Remember those web award badges you could stick on your site with pride in the early 90's - until you realised that it was only there to get users to click off your site?
I believe the
On 07/12/2005, at 9:14 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote:
We already have a rating system with A - AAA conformence and the
pretty
badges to go with it.
It probably is 'just another button scheme' (hey, it was 6:30 in the
morning!) but the concept was for Joe Average to start seeing these
similar
From: Herrod, Lisa
Who really pays attention to the badges?
Are the badges useful? really? surely an accessibility page
on the site is more informative and helpful/useful/clear
to those who are interested.
We work this way because it's best practice and the right
thing to do; it's
From: Vincent Johansen
The whole deal about putting buttons on websites we make for
clients is in my humble opinion quite retarded. You're
directing traffic straight out of your clients website
I'm not sure I'd word it quite that way, but I agree that
sending visitors away isn't a good
From: Andreas Boehmer
From: Herrod, Lisa
surely you're not doing it for the elephant stamp?
Could not have put it better.
Agreed, but wasn't this all started by someone wanting a way
to communicate the goodness of standards compliant sites to
a lay audience?
Wouldn't a scheme like that
From: Patrick H. Lauke
But the question remains: who awards these stars? Self-accreditation
would obviously be futile. And who monitors that stars are rightly
awarded, and not used by sites that don't meet the criteria? Hey, if
there's full-time jobs being created here, I'm in...
It has
So, given that the W3C buttons enforce compliancy by returning errors if the
page isn't valid, what's wrong with them again?
I actually sport mine with some pride and have had several visitors comment
on the fact. Sure, some of their comments have been along the lines of what
are they for? and
Paul Noone wrote:
So, given that the W3C buttons enforce compliancy by returning errors if the
page isn't valid, what's wrong with them again?
WCAG buttons don't link to any validator. And, of course, accessibility
cannot be checked in any satisfactory way without *human* testing (let
me
Lea de Groot wrote:
http://www.energyrating.gov.au/con3.html
Ugly stickers; Very effective program.
From http://www.energyrating.gov.au/background.html
Manufacturers who produce / import appliances for the Australian market
are required to submit their products to an approved testing
Patrick's got a good point ... but isn't this conversation just about at its
end?
We seem to have two camps: those for and those against.
How much more do we need to talk about this stuff???
R
- Original Message -
From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Ah yes, I downloaded Notepad++ the day before yesterday. Definitely a
step up from mdiPad! I also downloaded the HTML-Kit editor, but it's
going to take me awhile to get use to it (still trying to get use to
Quanta Plus when I play in Ubuntu). Someone here also suggested
StyleMaster, which I
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