RE: [WSG] Other character sets/languages
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dejan Kozina Sent: 20 February 2005 22:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Other character sets/languages More generally, inputing characters not native to my keyboard/OS is to me the most annoying part of it all (I routinely have to input central-european stuff by switching the keyboard layout, meaning I had to remember which key becomes which). If you have the luck to get your content already typed, copy/paste is much more error-proof than the alternatives. Then you might like these pickers - designed for non-native user input. (Note that the Latin diacritics picker probably includes most of what's needed for Vietnamese.) http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/pickers/ Richard Ishida W3C contact info: http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ W3C Internationalization: http://www.w3.org/International/ Publication blog: http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Other character sets/languages
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dejan Kozina
Sent: 21 February 2005 04:49
One thing I've just thought of. The final hurdle in letting the world
see vietnamese text is hoping that the visitor's browser has a font
capable of displaying the text. There is not much you can do if it
doesn't, but if it has one you should allow the browser to choose it
avoiding to declare a font-family for that part of the page.
Most likely, people who want to read (not look at) Vietnamese text will have
fonts that support the characters.
Note also that you can specify your prefered font in the CSS, but the
font-family property allows you to specify more than one font for fallback
support. For example, if you research the user base and discover that there are
two or three Unicode fonts in common use, you can include them all. In any
case you should always finish a font-family declaration with 'serif' or
'sans-serif' in this situation. Then if none of the fonts you indicated are on
the user's system, a font that they do have will be used.
eg. body { font-family: My preferred viet font, An alternative font,
sans-serif; ... }
hth
RI
Richard Ishida
W3C
contact info:
http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
W3C Internationalization:
http://www.w3.org/International/
Publication blog:
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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RE: [WSG] Other character sets/languages
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gene Falck Sent: 20 February 2005 04:26 OK, I understand about the BOM but this still leaves me wondering how to save properly. I usually code using Notepad which offers, from the Save As... menu choice, the Encoding options: ANSI Unicode Unicode big endian UTF-8 but no UTF-6 BOM. How can I be sure I am saving in the right way? People on the list may also find the following resource useful. It indicates how to save files in UTF-8 from a number of different editing environments. Setting encoding in web authoring applications http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-setting-encoding-in-application s Richard Ishida W3C contact info: http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ W3C Internationalization: http://www.w3.org/International/ Publication blog: http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] setAttribute not working on Firefox
G'day is there anything wonky with .setAttribute, sometimes not working in Firefox? According to the www.QuirksMode.org compatibility tables, attribute manipulation is a ... mess across browsers. It says however that Mozilla 1.75 supports SetAttribute0. Firefox 1.0 uses the Mozilla 1.75 engine so it should work. windowdiv.setAttribute(className,wclass); windowdiv.setAttribute(id,name); the classname is not being set any suggestions? Have you tried class instead of className? Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] setAttribute not working on Firefox
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:29:02 +1000, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: windowdiv.setAttribute(className,wclass); the classname is not being set windowdiv.className=wclass; works for me. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Other character sets/languages
Richard Ishida wrote: In any case you should always finish a font-family declaration with 'serif' or 'sans-serif' in this situation. Then if none of the fonts you indicated are on the user's system, a font that they do have will be used. Good point. Lesson learned: I really shouldn't write heady stuff before sunrise and a fair serving of coffee. What I had in mind was rather the case (admittedly rare, but happened to me) when a non-Unicode font has the same name as a Unicode one. The culprit in my case was Georgia with CE characters, back then when W2k was brand new. Made a website assuming every Georgia has the full set of Latin glyphs, while my customer had an Italian Win98 supplied with a Win-1252 Georgia... Still hate those empty squares. Researching the user base is something I find iffy anyway. Every once in a while there is a thread trying to find a safe sequence of fonts usable both on Windows and MacOS, and it ends up with a boatload of different typefaces, plus assorted arguments about display details. Directly asking a vietnamese designer might be more straightforward. Anyway, my suggestion should be more correctly amended to: 'use a generic font-family and let the browser help itself, rather than risk a miss trying to overdesign the appearance'. djn begin:vcard fn:Dejan Kozina n:Kozina;Dejan org:Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio adr:;;Dolina 346;Dolina;TS;I-34018;Italy email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:+39 348 7355 225 tel;fax:+39 040 228 436 tel;cell:+39 348 7355 225 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.kozina.com/ version:2.1 end:vcard
[WSG] standards compliant tutorial
I remember that when I was first writing web pages and going over the basic html tutorials a few months ago they taught me nothing about standards, doctypes, separation of style from content, and all that good stuff that makes my life so much easier now adays. My brother is tring to enter the land of web design now and as far as I know, he doesn't even now css exists. I'm familiar with w3schools, but I'm wondering if there are any better turtorials around for doing xhtml, css, ecmascript, and teach good web design habbits. -Alan Trick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: firefox bug?
Interesting, I thought I had replied to this. But no, it is no longer an issue. I just changed my margins on 'div#header p' into padding and now it is all good. Thanks for the help. Rosemary Norwood wrote: Is this still an issue? Looking in my FF 1.0 it's nicely up there against the top (I assume you mean the nav links back - login - privacy - contact us.) Rosemary Norwood Blackwork Web Intelligence ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards compliant tutorial
Alan Trick wrote: I remember that when I was first writing web pages and going over the basic html tutorials a few months ago they taught me nothing about standards, doctypes, separation of style from content, and all that good stuff that makes my life so much easier now adays. My brother is tring to enter the land of web design now and as far as I know, he doesn't even now css exists. I'm familiar with w3schools, but I'm wondering if there are any better turtorials around for doing xhtml, css, ecmascript, and teach good web design habbits. -Alan Trick I followed http://www.htmldog.com tutorials on xhtml and css. There was a bit about doctype etc. -- Mvh/Regards Lennart Fylling http://lennart-fylling.com web design consultancy -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21.02.2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Centre DIV Vertically? Any compliant methods?
Title: Centre DIV Vertically? Any compliant methods? Hi Everyone, I wondered if anyone has a solution on how to centre a DIV vertically. I found this information, http://www.quirksmode.org/css/centering.html but its uses a table. And I dont want to use a table as I am conforming to WAI AAA. Anyone know any methods to centre vertically using standard code??? Cheers guys Josef
Re: [WSG] Centre DIV Vertically? Any compliant methods?
Joey wrote: Hi Everyone, I wondered if anyone has a solution on how to centre a DIV vertically. I found this information, _http://www.quirksmode.org/css/centering.html_ but its uses a table. And I dont want to use a table as I am conforming to WAI AAA. Anyone know any methods to centre vertically using standard code??? Cheers guys Josef Josef, I've seen this a couple times: http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/thebox/deadcentre3.html It doesn't use tables, and I'm fairly sure its compliant. HTH Darren ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Centre DIV Vertically? Any compliant methods?
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:17:08 -, Joey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wondered if anyone has a solution on how to centre a DIV vertically. I found this information, http://www.quirksmode.org/css/centering.html ... Josef http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/30/vertical-centering-with-css David -- de gustibus non est disputandum http://www.dlaakso.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards compliant tutorial
Alan, Here's another good resource: http://www.456bereastreet.com/lab/developing_with_web_standards/ Respectfully submitted, Mario S. Cisneros, President WebNet Design Studios, LLC I remember that when I was first writing web pages and going over the basic html tutorials a few months ago they taught me nothing about standards, doctypes, separation of style from content, and all that good stuff that makes my life so much easier now adays. My brother is tring to enter the land of web design now and as far as I know, he doesn't even now css exists. I'm familiar with w3schools, but I'm wondering if there are any better turtorials around for doing xhtml, css, ecmascript, and teach good web design habbits. -Alan Trick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] FW: Site review
Would anyone have the time to look over the following site? Any feedback much appreciated. www.organicexpo.com.au Thanks James
Re: [WSG] FW: Site review
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:56:38 +1100, James Gollan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would anyone have the time to look over the following site? Any feedback much appreciated. www.organicexpo.com.au http://www.organicexpo.com.au/ Thanks James Impressive. Looks good in XP2_IE6.0/FF1.0/Opera7.54u1 at 800, 1024, and 1280. Layout holds well on zoom, easy to navigate and read. Seems as though you're current with the contemporary art (and color) trends as well: -- de gustibus non est disputandum http://www.dlaakso.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Centre DIV Vertically? Any compliant methods?
Hi Joey,
I've wanted to do this for ages, and never found a solution which is rigid
AND which works in IE. In addition, the published methods usually need you
to know the dimensions of the div you are centering, and I want a method
which centers both horizontally AND vertically, nomatter what size the
content.
It can be done by purely standards methods as follows:
style type=text/css
body, html {
margin : 0;
padding : 0;
height : 100%;
}
#layoutgrid{
display : table;
height : 100%;
width : 100%;
}
#layoutgridinner {
display : table-cell;
vertical-align : middle;
text-align : center;
}
--
/style
body
div id=layoutgrid
div id=layoutgridinner
middle
/div
/div
/body
But, Since IE doesn't support 'display table-cell' it will only work in
other standards browsers, like Firefox.
So, the only way I've found which is usable in the real world, uses a
single-cell
table, and so I use it with a clear conscience! :-) Here it is:
style type=text/css
/* Thanks to Rimantas Liubertas [EMAIL PROTECTED] for suggesting 'td'
*/
body, html {
margin : 0;
padding : 0;
height : 100%;
}
#layoutgrid{
display : table;
height : 100%;
width : 100%;
}
#layoutgrid td {
vertical-align : middle;
text-align : center;
}
--
/style
body
table id=layoutgrid
!-- table, as opposed to strict CSS, is needed for IE centering --
tr
td
middle
/td
/tr
/table
/body
I believe that when the table-less approach fails (as it does here), it is
acceptable to use one, so long as it is minimal !
Not what you asked for, but I HTH.
Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
- Original Message -
From: Joey
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 6:17 PM
Subject: [WSG] Centre DIV Vertically? Any compliant methods?
Hi Everyone,
I wondered if anyone has a solution on how to centre a DIV vertically. I
found this information, http://www.quirksmode.org/css/centering.html but its
uses a table. And I don't want to use a table as I am conforming to WAI AAA.
Anyone know any methods to centre vertically using standard code???
Cheers guys
Josef
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] FW: Site review
james your design seems quite appropriate for an organic expo - clean and simple, although the orange background seems a bit loud.also, the "site design" link in the footer, will the organicexpo allow you a link to your web site instead of bringing up an e-mail message? other than that, the overall user interface works well. steve fisher los angeles, ca Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of James GollanSent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:57 AMTo: 'Wsg'Subject: [WSG] FW: Site review Would anyone have the time to look over the following site? Any feedback much appreciated. www.organicexpo.com.au Thanks James
Re: [WSG] Check website
thanks :))) Daniel - Original Message - From: David Laakso [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Check website On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 07:18:44 +0100, Gizax Studios [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Check this website for a marketing company. Some section are coming soon. http://www.arcapplied.org/tempodaniele/index.php regards Daniel http://www.gizax.it Daniel, I like the color and general feel ot the site but find the nav menu and content text too small. The banner logo is not happy with it's position at 800, nor at higher screen resolutions with a sidebar in place, sliding under the outer container. Alternate text for that image might be a good idea. A couple of errors on the CSS file, including the inclusion of MS proprietary stuff, keeps it from validating. Page shift happening when going to and from pages not long enough to draw a scroll bar.The comment form is breaking right on zoom. Regards, David -- de gustibus non est disputandum http://www.dlaakso.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] FW: Site review
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:56:38 +1100, James Gollan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would anyone have the time to look over the following site? Any feedback much appreciated. www.organicexpo.com.au http://www.organicexpo.com.au/ Thanks James Impressive. Nice use of the full window, easy to navigate, and read. Looks good in XP_SP2 IE6.0/FF1.0/Opera7.54u1. Layout holds well on zoom. Nice strong use of color, and in keeping with the with current international contempory art, and color trend. Not sure if your site reminds me of The Gates http://www.nytimes.com/ref/arts/design/GATES-REF.html?excamp=GGGNthegates. Or vice versa. Either way, nice job, James! Regards, David -- de gustibus non est disputandum http://www.dlaakso.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Cool css box idea
Hello again! I've recently been fascinated by round boxes on pages. I will have to wait for CSS3 to be officially released and then adopted before I can use the border-radius feature. Until then, I am experimenting with my own rounded boxes, with corners generated in PHP. If you have Firefox or Opera available to you, please take a look and tell me what you think - http://69.174.31.29:100/roundbox/. The CSS needs to be optimized and I haven't set it up to work in IE yet, but it's pretty cool to me. Rounded boxes with rounded shadows! :-) --Zachary Hopkins -- The best way to predict the future is to invent it. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Other character sets/languages
Then you might like these pickers - designed for non-native user input. (Note that the Latin diacritics picker probably includes most of what's needed for Vietnamese.) http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/pickers/ Thanks for that, very useful. I was skeptical, Vietnamese having such a wide variety of accents, double-accents, and even accents below as well as above the letter, but I was pleasantly surprised. I think they're all there and any set that includes the letter O with a little comma sticking out of the side plus a teeny question mark floating over the top (as seen in everyone's favourite Vietnamese word, Ph) seems to be pretty much complete. Thanks again everyone for your help. I'll let you look at the website when it's done. Oh and incidentally, the Vietnamese Professionals Society are the body that looks after this kind of thing, fonts, keyboard layouts and so on, and they use and recommend Unicode here: http://www.vps.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=91 so they're solidly on board with standards too. Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Centre DIV Vertically? Any compliant methods?
Slightly off-[this]topic, but does anyone have an explanation for how vertical alignment got missed in the creation of CSS? This topic comes up again and again. I mean, forgive me for being crass, but did they just forget? Or was it not considered necessary? I imagined that they would have a big list called Stuff You Can Already Do which they worked through -- and vertical alignment should have been on it... It offends my sense of logic to see all these complex hacks and workarounds for such a simple thing. Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] code formatting
Hi Lothar, Thanks for the reference to Eric Meyer's Uncollapsing Margins article. It was very informative and I have changed some of my CSS as a result. It doesn't explain, however, why moving a /div tag from a line on its own to the end of the code of the previous line effected the page rendering in IE. I find this very odd. cheers, Hope Stewart On 21/2/05 11:48 AM, Lothar B. Baier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That sounds like uncollapsed margins. Eric A. Meyer has a good article on that: http://www.complexspiral.com/publications/uncollapsing-margins/ HTH Lothar -- www.markupmarks.de www.designdragon.de Hope Stewart wrote: The div content is defined as having only a left margin. The div footer is defined as having no margins. However, IE rendered the page with an unwanted margin between these two divs. By some fluke, however, I discovered (though I'm sure I'm not the first!) that if I moved the /div tag to the end of the previous line -- instead of it being on a line by itself -- that the unwanted margin in IE disappears and the page is rendered how I want it to be: div id=contentpThis is a paragraph/p pa href=#topTop/a/p/div div id=footerpThis is all the copyright stuff./p/div So, it makes me wonder: Is there a way I should be formatting my code to avoid browser rendering problems such as this one? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Cool css box idea
Zachary Hopkins wrote: I've recently been fascinated by round boxes on pages. I will have to wait for CSS3 to be officially released and then adopted before I can use the border-radius feature. Or you can cheat a little while waiting for CSS3: http://www.gunlaug.no/homesite/main_6_xv.html ... my page is getting old... Until then, I am experimenting with my own rounded boxes, with corners generated in PHP. If you have Firefox or Opera available to you, please take a look and tell me what you think - http://69.174.31.29:100/roundbox/. Opera: fine. Firefox Safari: also fine, but those two boxes will overlap on narrow screens. I can see that those images are not optimized yet, and they're slightly out of position on lower right corner. A bit more, and it will come out right. You use almost as many extra divs as I did, and have got a shadow too. Guess the difference between yours and mine is that my boxes are still round when images are turned off. It's nice to play with these style-features, even if the source-code looks a bit crappy. Hope those standards, and browsers, will catch up with us soon. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Cool css box idea
Wow! That;s a lotta divs! For the possible purposes of my site, I shouldn't have to worry too much about corners disappearing due to images being turned off. --Zachary Gunlaug Srtun wrote: Zachary Hopkins wrote: I've recently been fascinated by round boxes on pages. I will have to wait for CSS3 to be officially released and then adopted before I can use the border-radius feature. Or you can cheat a little while waiting for CSS3: http://www.gunlaug.no/homesite/main_6_xv.html ... my page is getting old... Until then, I am experimenting with my own rounded boxes, with corners generated in PHP. If you have Firefox or Opera available to you, please take a look and tell me what you think - http://69.174.31.29:100/roundbox/. Opera: fine. Firefox Safari: also fine, but those two boxes will overlap on narrow screens. I can see that those images are not optimized yet, and they're slightly out of position on lower right corner. A bit more, and it will come out right. You use almost as many extra divs as I did, and have got a shadow too. Guess the difference between yours and mine is that my boxes are still round when images are turned off. It's nice to play with these style-features, even if the source-code looks a bit crappy. Hope those standards, and browsers, will catch up with us soon. regards Georg -- The best way to predict the future is to invent it. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [WSG] FW: Site review
James- Very nice site indeed. . . a couple thoughts: The main navigation (visitors | exhibitors | about...) bar hangs beyond the right edge of the content's white background (Mac FF 1.1, Opera 7.51). A lot more page elements hang off in Mac IE 5.2, if you care (many don't, but I still do). Also, in consideration of those browsers that have javascript turned off, you may want to place some back-up href attributes in some of your a> links. Specifically your footer links and the View the image file link (there may have been others, I didn't hunt for more) use onclick javascript calls to pop your windows. However if javascript is turned off, those windows won't pop, and your users won't get that information. As an accessible alternative, place the url into an href tag, and then at the end of your onclick javascript call, place a return false; so that if javascript IS enabled, the href won't be followed by the browser. If you do this, also don't forget to add title attributes to keep your links valid. Hope that makes sense, John On Feb 21, 2005, at 2:56 PM, James Gollan wrote: x-tad-biggerWould anyone have the time to look over the following site?/x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerAny feedback much appreciated./x-tad-bigger x-tad-bigger /x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerwww.organicexpo.com.au/x-tad-bigger x-tad-bigger /x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerThanks/x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerJames/x-tad-bigger
Re: [WSG] Centre DIV Vertically? Any compliant methods?
Joey skrev: Hi Everyone, I wondered if anyone has a solution on how to centre a DIV vertically. I found this information, _http://www.quirksmode.org/css/centering.html_ but its uses a table. And I dont want to use a table as I am conforming to WAI AAA. Anyone know any methods to centre vertically using standard code??? Cheers guys Josef Hi. maybe this could help http://www.456bereastreet.com/lab/centered/both/ mv icaaq ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] WSG thoghts on XUL
Hi, I have previously encountered XUL but only just started to look into it. I have found it so far (only worked with it for one day) to be really interesting. I was wondering what other wsg members thought of it and maybe if they could give me some background or forecast regarding the tech, will it be superseded, is it still in development, etc. Cheers, ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Can Mac people please have a look at this?
Hi guys, I've had someone tell me that this page is doing odd things on a Mac. Apparently the navbar is falling out of the content pane. Can someone please have a look and a) verify this, and b) tell me how to fix it? Site: http://www.dare2.com.au/productsservices.php CSS: http://www.dare2.com.au/new.css Cheers, Seona. __ ella for Spam Control has removed Spam messages and set aside Later for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! http://www.ellaforspam.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WSG thoghts on XUL
Jixor - Stephen I wrote: I have previously encountered XUL but only just started to look into it. I have found it so far (only worked with it for one day) to be really interesting. I was wondering what other wsg members thought of it and maybe if they could give me some background or forecast regarding the tech, will it be superseded, is it still in development, etc. What I found most interesting is the fact that there is a lot of XUL markup which is squarely presentational in nature. After a long time striving for semantic XHTML markup with separate presentation in CSS, it feels like a huge step backwards being expected to mix it around like it's 1996 again. I try to make a point of personal discipline to apply the same strict sense of separation of content and presentation in my XUL, as if it was any other standards-based web site. However, I fear this topic is beyond the scope of the web standards list (as it's, of course, not a W3C standard), so I think I'll leave it at that now... -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] FW: Site review
Hi James,
As the page http://www.organicexpo.com.au/exhibitors/index.php validates as
XHTML 1.0 Strict, this may not mean anything but I have had errors or
warnings from validators about white space in html comments in the past.
!--comment-- wasn't acceptable as there needed to be a space either inside
the delimiters (--) as in
!-- comment --. Seems this has been changed in the specs, or at least the
validators. I would still suggest doing it that way anyway. This also means
that ColdFusion comments !--- comment --- should not really be used on
pages that are not parsed by ColdFusion (removing them from the source).
The links without hrefs in the footer are inaccessible.
a onclick=javascript:newWindow('../articles/terms.php')terms and
conditions/a
Without JavaScript (many smartphones etc. simply don't have it), this won't
work and they can't read your terms. A potential legal issue. The code we
use (in HTML and only when we really need to) is:
a href=page.htm target=targetname onClick=window.open('',
'targetname','toolbar=0,location=0,directories=0,status=0,menubar=0,scrollba
rs=auto,resizable=0,width=310,height=300') title=Link text (opens in a new
window)Link text/a
This is very stable code that works everywhere.
So, either don't use XHTML if you want accessible links to popup windows
(due to the lack of the target attribute) or don't use popup windows at all,
loading the terms and conditions and privacy policy in the full window. The
latter is obviously preferable as people using screen readers without the
aid of vision may not know the new window has opened and get completely lost
on a page with no navigation aids.
Just my thoughts...
P
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Re: [WSG] Can Mac people please have a look at this?
This is happening because your navigation list is floated left, which consequently collapses it's dimensions as far as it's container #content div is concerned. The white of your #content thus is sized to what's left, but since there is only the select box, its white background ends just below this. The result is that your navigation hangs off the bottom. Quickest fix is to place a clear: left; style attribute in one of the p tags found just before your #content div is closed. This isn't terribly semantic (there's no need for any of those extra empty p/p's, use css instead), but it gets the job done. HTH, John On Feb 21, 2005, at 7:23 PM, Seona Bellamy wrote: Hi guys, I've had someone tell me that this page is doing odd things on a Mac. Apparently the navbar is falling out of the content pane. Can someone please have a look and a) verify this, and b) tell me how to fix it? Site: http://www.dare2.com.au/productsservices.php CSS: http://www.dare2.com.au/new.css Cheers, Seona. __ ella for Spam Control has removed Spam messages and set aside Later for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! http://www.ellaforspam.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WSG thoghts on XUL
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Jixor - Stephen I wrote: I have previously encountered XUL but only just started to look into it. I have found it so far (only worked with it for one day) to be really interesting. I was wondering what other wsg members thought of it and maybe if they could give me some background or forecast regarding the tech, will it be superseded, is it still in development, etc. What I found most interesting is the fact that there is a lot of XUL markup which is squarely presentational in nature. After a long time striving for semantic XHTML markup with separate presentation in CSS, it feels like a huge step backwards being expected to mix it around like it's 1996 again. I try to make a point of personal discipline to apply the same strict sense of separation of content and presentation in my XUL, as if it was any other standards-based web site. However, I fear this topic is beyond the scope of the web standards list (as it's, of course, not a W3C standard), so I think I'll leave it at that now... Yep, that has been my main problem with it also. However I don't consider it as much of an issue as for html design. The XUL is for describing the application interface not styling it. Of course due to shortcomings of its css implementation there seems to be many things that you can only do by applying properties to the tags themselves. That said its not like they can't just add properties to the css standard. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Table content displayed as a list
I have some tabular content (in the HTML as a table) but what it to
display as a list.
This works fine in Firefox by making each TD display as a 'block', but
does nothing in IE. Any ideas?
I do not want to do any static positioning as the table content
contains dynamic data. Would it be acceptable to change from a table to
a definition list ('dl') with multiple descriptions ('dd')?
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[WSG] Standards and site structuring
Just out of interest what standards (in the sense of a generalised approach) are you all applying to site structuring? There is a well known article (that I cannot remember the URL for) that discusses the fairly accepted standards for a site like; Home, Contact Us, About Us, News, etc. So I was curious how people here apply those kind of standards to their site structure and also what they feel about doing them for the sake of usability, etc. Thanks, Nick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards and site structuring
Nick Lo wrote: Just out of interest what standards (in the sense of a generalised approach) are you all applying to site structuring? There is a well known article (that I cannot remember the URL for) that discusses the fairly accepted standards for a site like; Home, Contact Us, About Us, News, etc. So I was curious how people here apply those kind of standards to their site structure and also what they feel about doing them for the sake of usability, etc. Thanks, Nick These are more conventions than standards. It's good to follow if possible, but not necessary. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards and site structuring
Ha ha, ok, welcome to the battle of the dictionaries. Yes I know it's not a formal standard as defined by any authority but it is a standard as established by it's common and accepted use. Anyway my question was what are people's thoughts about this. For example; I've heard developers complain how brain dead it makes sites. To reign it in to the realm of standards based development; do any of you feel there is a strong case for site structure to follow at least some standards or ahem, convention? Thanks, Nick Just out of interest what standards (in the sense of a generalised approach) are you all applying to site structuring? There is a well known article (that I cannot remember the URL for) that discusses the fairly accepted standards for a site like; Home, Contact Us, About Us, News, etc. So I was curious how people here apply those kind of standards to their site structure and also what they feel about doing them for the sake of usability, etc. Thanks, Nick These are more conventions than standards. It's good to follow if possible, but not necessary. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards and site structuring
Nick Lo wrote: Just out of interest what standards (in the sense of a generalised approach) are you all applying to site structuring? Site structure... as in URL design? Or internal file structures? Or common interface elements? .Matthew Cruickshank http://holloway.co.nz/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards and site structuring
I think there's a need to strike some balance between following a convention far enough so that even a first-time visitor finds the navigation to be familiar, and considering what the audience is and using words and phrases that are most appropriate. Or perhaps this makes better sense: follow the conventions of your audience. I think About Us, Contact Us, Home etc are pretty dry, but there are many audiences out there that subscribe to dry, that speak dry. Colophon on the other hand is not dry, but also not appropriate for every site audience. The blogging community is familiar with this term and knows that it translates to About Me / About This Site, but it wouldn't fit much anywhere else. My $.02 -John On Feb 21, 2005, at 10:18 PM, Nick Lo wrote: Ha ha, ok, welcome to the battle of the dictionaries. Yes I know it's not a formal standard as defined by any authority but it is a standard as established by it's common and accepted use. Anyway my question was what are people's thoughts about this. For example; I've heard developers complain how brain dead it makes sites. To reign it in to the realm of standards based development; do any of you feel there is a strong case for site structure to follow at least some standards or ahem, convention? Thanks, Nick Just out of interest what standards (in the sense of a generalised approach) are you all applying to site structuring? There is a well known article (that I cannot remember the URL for) that discusses the fairly accepted standards for a site like; Home, Contact Us, About Us, News, etc. So I was curious how people here apply those kind of standards to their site structure and also what they feel about doing them for the sake of usability, etc. Thanks, Nick These are more conventions than standards. It's good to follow if possible, but not necessary. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards and site structuring
Well good question actually. I was initially just thinking of naming conventions (Title: About Us, file: about_us.html, etc) but that could well be extended. Common interface elements gets pretty in depth and likely well off on a tangent though. On the list we all spend a lot of time on what to the client are relatively hidden standards (those being the underlying markup or code) but in conversation with clients actually deal with a lot of other standards. Often they themselves will brief with a site structure they see as standard (sometimes dependant on the market, etc). I'm really not looking for any specific answers more just generally curious as I know I'm definitely following a fairly common approach even in working across different market segments. To kick off with an example would anyone say to a client We should probably call this Contact Us as everyone expects and homes in on that wording when they need make contact Nick Site structure... as in URL design? Or internal file structures? Or common interface elements? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards and site structuring
Nick, I agree with John Wells that it has to do with your target audience. I'm in e-Learning where many users are not particuarly web-savvy so I stick with the familiar conventions over trying to be out on the bleeding edge of innovation. There are times when my design-self screams at the tedium, so I have to channel the inventiveness into either interface innovations to make them work better or into my personal/private clients' sites. For example, I try to stick with commonly used terms: Home or Main (I prefer Main, more professional in most contexts unless you want the user to feel some ownership of the site etc), Search, Help (rather than FAQ) etc. It is rather frustrating trying to find navigational style information (this is a project I am undertaking just now). There's some interesting stuff at http://www.webstyleguide.com/interface/navigate.html - but it's very generalized. No one seems to want to commit to anything, perhaps because the web is so fluid that you can't just say there is one way to do something. Overall, I think you need to look at your audience, decide what kind of other interfaces they are already familiar with (browser, Word, Photoshop etc) and figure out how good their web-savvy is. I think the link above makes one important point - we can rely too much on major navigational links. Put some context in your page so users know what you mean. Good luck, if I find out any more on my search I'll share it with you, Rosemary Norwood Blackwork Web Intelligence ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards and site structuring
On 2/21/05 7:53 PM Nick Lo [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: To kick off with an example would anyone say to a client We should probably call this Contact Us as everyone expects and homes in on that wording when they need make contact I think that becomes absurd really quick, and ultimately leads to software creating websites with no human intervention required. :-( Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards and site structuring
Nick, Ok, to answer your actual question not the one I thought you asked ... If my clients have a standard I go with that. Otherwise I try to be as descriptive as possible without getting overly long. Often the client wants to do their own content maintenance after I'm done so I have to try and keep things making sense. I try to sick with standardised abbreviations - navigation gets shortened to nav, small to sml, large to lge etc to try and keep file length down. Now I'm in the training sector where iterations are very important so I have to either include the date in the file name or in the file comments. Rosemary Norwood Blackwork Web Intelligence ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WSG thoghts on XUL
On 22 Feb 2005, at 11:34, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Jixor - Stephen I wrote: I have previously encountered XUL but only just started to look into it. I have found it so far (only worked with it for one day) to be really interesting. I was wondering what other wsg members thought of it and maybe if they could give me some background or forecast regarding the tech, will it be superseded, is it still in development, etc. What I found most interesting is the fact that there is a lot of XUL markup which is squarely presentational in nature. After a long time striving for semantic XHTML markup with separate presentation in CSS, it feels like a huge step backwards being expected to mix it around like it's 1996 again. I try to make a point of personal discipline to apply the same strict sense of separation of content and presentation in my XUL, as if it was any other standards-based web site. I think it is worth considering that not all markup languages are able to separate presentation from content. Some markup languages are purely presentational in nature. One example is SVG, which can be styled via CSS, but that is only manipulating the presentational properties -- CSS can't turn a circle into a rect. Other examples are XSL:FO and MathML (to some degree). I think XUL falls mostly into this camp. I would assume that many people's gut reaction is WTF!?!, especially after the long, hard battle to get people to use CSS properly with HTML. This is probably a valid reaction, but I believe presentational markup languages are unavoidable. However, it's not all that bad. We're looking at technologies like XBL to transform a semantically rich markup into a presentational system. In the same way as CSS decorates an HTML tree with presentational information, XBL could decorate an XML tree with presentation and behaviour. This allows the author to use the highest level language available (eg. higher than HTML which isn't terribly semantically rich). However, I fear this topic is beyond the scope of the web standards list (as it's, of course, not a W3C standard), so I think I'll leave it at that now... I don't think it's beyond the scope of the W3C. We're constantly looking at technologies like XUL. Do people see the need for standardisation in this area? Dean -- dean jackson world wide web consortium (w3c) - http://www.w3.org/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WSG thoghts on XUL
Dean,
I don't think it's beyond the scope of the W3C. We're constantly
looking
at technologies like XUL. Do people see the need for standardisation
in this area?
Sure.
I think the real benefit of standardisation and standards bodies is not
necessarily the standards they develop (in a sense, it's not even
necessary, and arguably not even advisable they develop those
standards, at least not from top to bottom) but that by anointing
technology it becomes a common good. The alternative is industry
standards that is winner takes all proprietary technologies, which are
the property and strategic asset of their creator.
XUL/XAML is a very good example of this. XUL was developed at Mozilla,
whose implementation was a great proof of concept. It's a shame that
early on in its development Mozilla didn't take it to WC and say, look
here is this really cool technology that works, would you guys like to
work with us to standardize this?
Or maybe they did and I don't know about it.
Unfortunately now we have two competing technologies that are similar,
leading to years if not decades in the delay of the adoption of XUL
like solutions.
Just as an aside why
circle and not solid class=whatever
.whatever {shape: circle}
?
j
John Allsopp
:: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
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Re: [WSG] Standards and site structuring
Hi Rosemary, Ok, to answer your actual question not the one I thought you asked ... Actually I wasn't really asking a question as such, more opening up the discussion of what people thought, how they work, etc. So your first response was as correct as the second one. You basically said you do to an extent due to your target audience. Out of interest how much (if any) feedback have you received to say your conventions are the expected ones and whether they helped at all. Thanks, Nick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards and site structuring
Hi Rick, To kick off with an example would anyone say to a client We should probably call this Contact Us as everyone expects and homes in on that wording when they need make contact I think that becomes absurd really quick, and ultimately leads to software creating websites with no human intervention required. :-( Hey that would be GREAT then I could actually go out and enjoy the sun that is shining so nicely outside my window! Seriously though I think that's carrying it a bit far as of course each site has it's own characteristics and it is common practice to establish naming conventions in websites as it is in programming. I suppose I was alluding to those common not just within a project or market but generally recognised too. Maybe this could result in a reference list of the most commonly recognised naming conventions ...I'm not sure. Thanks, Nick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
