[WSG] Speech friendly DreamWeaver Tutorial
This is probably off topic, so please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was wondering if their is a screen reader friendly tutorial for Dream Weaver 7.0 to create web standard web sites? Thank you. Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page://www.infoforce-services.com Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president http://www.choroideremia.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Safari FOUC was site check: liquid.rdpdesign.com
On 10/10/05, Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 19:45:07 -0400, Christian Montoya wrote: Sounds like FOUC. I'll try to fix that... eventually. Thanks.Well, if you succeed, do publicise it!I haven't yet managed to kill the Safari FOUC :( warmly,Lea--Lea de GrootElysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/Brisbane, Australia**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **Let me know if I killed it. If not, I can live with it: http://liquid.rdpdesign.com -- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
Re: [WSG] Firefox caption madness
On 10/11/05, Jake Badger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm getting a weird problem when I try and absolutely position somethingin a table caption. It all works fine in IE, but in Firefox if I try thepage below the caption is only as wide as the first cell in the table. If I remove the display:block; on the caption then the caption isthe full width of the table but the absolutely positioned em elementis in the top left of the page rather than of the caption element. Any one have any ideas on what's going on here?Does the caption need position:relative? That's usually what's necessary to have a child stay inside.-- - C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
Re: [WSG] Firefox caption madness
It already has it, but firefox ignores it if the display isn't block, and if it is it's only as wide as the first cell of the table (as I just said). On 11/10/2005, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/11/05, Jake Badger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm getting a weird problem when I try and absolutely position something in a table caption. It all works fine in IE, but in Firefox if I try the page below the caption is only as wide as the first cell in the table. If I remove the display:block; on the caption then the caption is the full width of the table but the absolutely positioned em element is in the top left of the page rather than of the caption element. Any one have any ideas on what's going on here? Does the caption need position:relative? That's usually what's necessary to have a child stay inside. -- - C Montoya rdpdesign.com http://rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.comhttp://liquid.rdpdesign.com... montoya.rdpdesign.com http://montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] DW 8 standards
Well, I'm new to DW8 I used to hand coding but it's taking time to deliver sites, so I'm learning to use DW, and it seems to be good, at least till now. Code wise it can do everything for you, semantic wise you will have to be careful and the internal validate doesn't work 100% properly with xhtml strict, but that's fine ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] DW 8 standards
I moved from Dreamweaver to hand coding because it was faster for CSS layout based sites. For working on older table based sites then Dreamweaver is handy for navigating around the nested layouts. On a related note, can anyone suggest a text editor that features an auto complete (for tags and attributes). Also, if it had Dreamweavers ability to select blocks of tags (from open tag to close tag and everything in between) that would be fantastic. Jad Madi wrote: Well, I'm new to DW8 I used to hand coding but it's taking time to deliver sites, so I'm learning to use DW, and it seems to be good, at least till now. Code wise it can do everything for you, semantic wise you will have to be careful and the internal validate doesn't work 100% properly with xhtml strict, but that's fine ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox caption madness
G'day I'm getting a weird problem when I try and absolutely position something in a table caption. ... captionh5emTable 3.1/em Performance results:/h5 Have you tried validating the (x)html? A caption can only contain inline elements and h5 is a block level element. It's possible your problems stem (at least in part) from this invalid coding. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox caption madness
Hmm, you're right it's not valid. However even if I change it to an inline element (I tried cite and del) exactly the same problems happen, so that's not it. On 11/10/2005, Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G'day I'm getting a weird problem when I try and absolutely position something in a table caption. ... captionh5emTable 3.1/em Performance results:/h5 Have you tried validating the (x)html? A caption can only contain inline elements and h5 is a block level element. It's possible your problems stem (at least in part) from this invalid coding. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox caption madness
On 11 Oct 2005, at 3:49 pm, Jake Badger wrote: It already has it, but firefox ignores it if the display isn't block, and if it is it's only as wide as the first cell of the table (as I just said). If you set the display value for the caption to 'block', then it is not a 'table-caption' [1] anymore..., and Firefox, Opera, Safari do display it wherever they feel like, still part of the table anonymous block, but they'll attempt to build a tr/td around it according to the rules in 17.2 [2]. Next, if you want to positioning something absolute within the table-block, you'll bump into an old Gecko bug, where a table-element cannot act as a 'nearest positioned ancestor' for the AP element [3]. Plus, a table caption cannot contain block level elements (your h5). [1] default display-value for caption [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#anonymous-boxes [3] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63895 Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Opera Padding Bug
Hello, I've a little problem with Opera 8.5 (mac version). Last versions of browsers, like FF, Safari and IE, seems not having the same problem (at this moment I've not checked the website with older browsers). Have a look at the website and at the CSS: http://beta.ortelli.net/index.php http://beta.ortelli.net/css/screen.css The bug is located between the top-menu and the logo... I've observed that the problem is the padding definied for the element: #header ul I've not found a solution, any idea? Thanks Roberto ps: ehm, perhaps there is a opera hack for this kind of issue? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] DW 8 standards
Samuel, we are not talking about any version of DW, we are talking about the latest version of dreamweaver, which seems to be promising, and seems to be a good tool to deliver standards based sites. I'm not sure about previous versions of DW, and what draw my attention to DW8 is they are marketing it as the 'web standards compliant tool' and it seems to be a fact at least till now. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
div id=header a href=home.htmimg src=logo.jpg alt=Company name //a h1Company name/h1 /div The problem here seems to be if the logo img also includes the company name... So your company name is showed twice (in the image and in the h1). How about this approach, no need for the company name to show twice: h1a href=/img src=logo.gif alt=Company name //a/h1 Personally I like the logo to show with styles off and if the user has images off then the alt tag provides the text. I would be interested to know how people markup their company logo that don't use an h1 tag, I like the idea of reserving those for the particular page headings but can't really see what to use for the logo instead. Paul. _ http://www.paulsturgess.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] DW 8 standards
Samuel Richardson wrote: I moved from Dreamweaver to hand coding because it was faster for CSS layout based sites. For working on older table based sites then Dreamweaver is handy for navigating around the nested layouts. On a related note, can anyone suggest a text editor that features an auto complete (for tags and attributes). Also, if it had Dreamweavers ability to select blocks of tags (from open tag to close tag and everything in between) that would be fantastic. You might have a look at Karlis Blumenthals' excellent HTMLPad [http://www.blumentals.net/htmlpad/] (US$25.85). I've been using it for a couple of years now (having tried quite a few other free/low priced editors) but this one just seemed the perfect bridge between a plain text editor and a fully blown wysiwyg editor. The latest version is called Webuilder [http://www.blumentals.net/webuilder/] (US$39.85) but if cost is an issue for you, I can't recommend HTMLPad highly enough. Related note: I don't use Dreamweaver but I think you could easily replicate the ability to select blocks of tags by adding these to your code library and selecting from there each time. If I had the spare funds I'd also be using Westciv's StyleMaster [http://www.westciv.com/style_master/index.html] (US$59.99). Even though I can easily edit css in HTMLPad, StyleMaster has enough bells whistles (the x-ray feature http://www.westciv.com/style_master/product_info/index.html#xray to name but one) to justify the extra cost. You might also like to have a look at the css-discuss list of editors: http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssEditors . Daisy -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/128 - Release Date: 10/10/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] DW 8 standards
I've been using DW8 (demo) since Friday and it's really very good. I'm using it mainly in code view, but its design view does an excellent view of rendering CSS layouts, a major improvement over MX 2004. It means that I'm not having to preview in a browser as much. While I almost never use it purely in design view, the code DW produces (in at least the two most recent versions) is very much standards compliant as far as I can tell. The built-in validation is extremely handy, and even if you run your pages through the w3c validator, having a validator built in saves heaps of time. I have no idea what Terrence means, my stock install of MX 2004 validates HTML 4.01 Transitional just fine, including scope=row. It's all good as far as I can see :) David On 11/10/2005, at 7:01 PM, Jad Madi wrote: Samuel, we are not talking about any version of DW, we are talking about the latest version of dreamweaver, which seems to be promising, and seems to be a good tool to deliver standards based sites. I'm not sure about previous versions of DW, and what draw my attention to DW8 is they are marketing it as the 'web standards compliant tool' and it seems to be a fact at least till now. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Paul Sturgess wrote: How about this approach, no need for the company name to show twice: h1a href=/img src=logo.gif alt=Company name //a/h1 Personally I like the logo to show with styles off and if the user has images off then the alt tag provides the text. I would be interested to know how people markup their company logo that don't use an h1 tag, I like the idea of reserving those for the particular page headings but can't really see what to use for the logo instead. How about nothing?! (i.e. no heading for this) Perhps I should confess at this point: I have a deep antipathy towards logos, but I know how marketing people love them! ;) Ideally, I aim to do three runs through HTML/CSS when coding up a site: 1. Try and mark-up the whole thing without images 2. Go through and insert images that should be hard-coded - you might call these 'illustrations' (I think Patrick might have been making a point earlier that logos might come under the category of 'illustration') 3. Do all the CSS styling: this covers all aspects of the page which are superfluous / not _absolutely_ required (images which fall into this phase are inserted as background-image) In the 'real world' (TM), however, these steps get mixed together due to commercial pressures (e.g. marketing) or technical restrictions (such as browser bugs; the fact that we only have h1-h6) Pragmatically, I like Patrick's h1a href=/img src=logo.gif alt=Company Name //a/h1 The pros: - you get something meaningful with images off - it prints as an image (which pleases marketing types :D) - alt text scales according to user font-size preferences The cons: - I think that something that is text (i.e. the company name) gets marked up as an image At nature.com, we do something like Patrick's solution, but we just ditch the h1, using only an image tag. We use the document title to spell out what site your on and reserve the h1 for 3 headings in the document: 1 at the top of the content (which helps indicate what the page is actually about), 1 at the top of each of the navigation columns. Because the navigation columns are really separate from the content (belonging to the site as a whole, and not the page content), using 3 h1s here seems the right thing to do (it very rarely is, I think) You then get an outline structure that looks like this: [site title] |- [h1] Page heading |- [h2-h6] any subheadings etc... |- [h1] Main Navigation |- [h1] Extra Navigation IMHO, it isn't ideal - I would prefer just a text h1 for the logo - but it does have the advantage of being a linked logo image that prints and has alt text, whilst preserving heading structures for use elsewhere in the page. Chris DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] DW 8 standards
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 03:02:56 -0400, Samuel Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I moved from Dreamweaver to hand coding because it was faster for CSS layout based sites. For working on older table based sites then Dreamweaver is handy for navigating around the nested layouts. On a related note, can anyone suggest a text editor that features an auto complete (for tags and attributes). Also, if it had Dreamweavers ability to select blocks of tags (from open tag to close tag and everything in between) that would be fantastic. Use DW in code view. That's what we do here. I am NEVER in layout view. -- Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] DW 8 standards
David McKinnon wrote: the code DW produces (in at least the two most recent versions) is very much standards compliant as far as I can tell. It's actually great that Macromedia has been so committed to web standards and so responsive to their beta testers. WaSP has made Stephanie Sullivan and Jesse Rodgers Dreamweaver Task Force members so they can continue working with MM on the standards issue. Vicki. :-) -- Vicki Berry DistinctiveWeb Web: http://www.distinctiveweb.com.au Blog: http://www.unheardword.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] DW 8 standards
It's actually great that Macromedia has been so committed to web standards and so responsive to their beta testers. WaSP has made Stephanie Sullivan and Jesse Rodgers Dreamweaver Task Force members so they can continue working with MM on the standards issue. Hopefully soon the dwtf will have a site up that goes over some of the standards-friendliness of DW 8 and some things to watch for (like the Halo design template)... Are there any stand out issues with DW 8 and standards (rendering, code creation, how it validates, etc)? Jesse -- Jesse Rodgers Manager, Web Communications Communications and Public Affairs University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada +1 519 888 4567 x3874, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Townson, Chris (I think Patrick might have been making a point earlier that logos might come under the category of 'illustration') The cons: - I think that something that is text (i.e. the company name) gets marked up as an image I would argue (without sounding too much like a marketeer or graphic designer) that a logo (particularly if it's not just just text in a specific typeface, but also includes swooshes, ticks, whatver) is more than just a visual representation of text, in the same way that a head and shoulders passport photo of a person is not just a visual representation of the person's name - and nobody would hopefully argue that my photo should be marked up as my name and then image replaced with the photo. It's part of the company's identity, and as such is content - to a certain extent anyway. Patrick __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] DW 8 standards
im suprised because I think the built in validator actually checks the validity through the internet from w3c, doesn't it? So, I dont know how it could not work properly. I may be wrong but that's what I thought happened. Wha semantically doesn't it do in strict mode? Can you provide an example? Buddy Jad Madi wrote: Well, I'm new to DW8 I used to hand coding but it's taking time to deliver sites, so I'm learning to use DW, and it seems to be good, at least till now. Code wise it can do everything for you, semantic wise you will have to be careful and the internal validate doesn't work 100% properly with xhtml strict, but that's fine ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] DW 8 standards
On October 11, 2005 2:03am Samuel Richardson wrote: On a related note, can anyone suggest a text editor that features an auto complete (for tags and attributes). Also, if it had Dreamweavers ability to select blocks of tags (from open tag to close tag and everything in between) that would be fantastic. My favorite editor is TSW Webcoder. http://www.tsware.net/ It includes autocomplete. And is very customizable. For example, you can create your own toolbar buttons for whatever tags you want. Plus it's free (as long as you register). --- Jonathan Bloy Web Services Librarian Edgewood College Madison, Wisconsin http://library.edgewood.edu ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Hi all, January this year, when I was still working for Telstra I rewrote their Universal Accessibility Guidelines document http://www.telstra.com.au/standards/docs/accb_03001.doc. You may be interested to have a look at the section on forms and the examples I wrote there. Regards Graham Cook UA Oz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Derek Featherstone Sent: Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:56 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org On 10/11/05, Terrence Wood wrote: Agreed, you are absolutely correct. Doh! I didn't acutally check the source code, no wonder my earlier post was confusing. Sorry Derek. No worries... If anyone *is* interested in replicating Dereks layout without the extra div's try this: snip / for what it's worth - I did try using that at certain points, but generally preferred to add in explicit divs to provide another hook for styling. YMMV - I also preferred to place each row in a block level element so that without author styles each form field and its label is still on a row of its own, though that use case may not be as important. Now then, I'd better get back to it so that I can post the second round of examples... :) Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Patrick Lauke wrote: I would argue ... that a logo ... is more than just a visual representation of text, in the same way that a head and shoulders passport photo of a person is not just a visual representation of the person's name Yes - I agree absolutely ... although my full length response to that would definitely risk [sending this discussion] disappearing up it own behind! :D and nobody would hopefully argue that my photo should be marked up as my name and then image replaced with the photo. I think my point here is this: HTML is really a text-based medium. Images have very little meaning, for example, to a screenreader. In practical terms, for HTML as it is today, what would your photo contribute to the content of a page? I recently marked up a page which consisted of information about employees. The design required inserting a photo of each employee next to their description: I used background images for those photos because they were not essential content. What was important was the bit which went: h3John Smith/h3 pJohn works as blah blah blah ... /p (Those h3+p details were also inside a list item for each employee) The point is that sticking in photos as img / here contributed practically nothing to the page. You say that you do not think your photo should not be the text Patrick Lauke replaced by an image: that would imply (quite rightly) that your identity as encapsulated by the photo is not summed up merely by the characters of your name. In that case, what should the alt text for an img / which is your photo be? Would it have to be 1000 words ... ? :D (that's what longdesc is there for, obviously) It's part of the company's identity, and as such is content - to a certain extent anyway. My logic processor returns this as both true and false :D (that's where your extent comes in?) True - philosophically True - for sighted-users in a graphical environment. False - in HTML (taken from a pure code or screenreader perspective), it's just a bit of alt text. as I've admitted though, there _are_ /real reasons/ why you would want an image (such as a logo) hard-coded into the page which you and others have covered in this thread. From my perspective, where possible, I like have code where all required meaning is imparted through text (_and_ have this marked up _as_ text). I think which approach you take depends ultimately upon your goals and emphasis for the site/page in question. C DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
I would argue (without sounding too much like a marketeer or graphic designer) that a logo (particularly if it's not just just text in a specific typeface, but also includes swooshes, ticks, whatver) is more than just a visual representation of text, in the same way that a head and shoulders passport photo of a person is not just a visual representation of the person's name - and nobody would hopefully argue that my photo should be marked up as my name and then image replaced with the photo. It's part of the company's identity, and as such is content - to a certain extent anyway. Patrick Some illustration: http://decaffeinated.org/archives/2005/09/27/logo Please, don't kick me if this is too much off topic :) Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE BG Image Bug
Stuart Sherwood wrote: One of my sites is triggering a bug in IE where a background image loads and displays perfectly but dissapears after it has scrolled of the page. If you scroll all the way to the bottom and then return to the top of the page, the bg image is no longer there. Any idea what this bug is? Stuart, You might try adding position: relative to the containing element (parent element that holds the image). Do you have a link to the site so we can look at the CSS? -- Lance Willett simpledream web studio Phone: 520.954.5607 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.simpledream.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Rimantas Liubertas wrote: Some illustration: http://decaffeinated.org/archives/2005/09/27/logo screenreader level twolink Silhouette Take a look at the eight logos below; I'm betting you're familiar with every one of them. Even if, at first glance, you're a little unsure about a couple, hovering over the graphic to see its title text will no doubt foster a silent revelation... ohhh, yeah. I knew that . GraphicWarner MusicGraphicPepsiGraphicSchwarzkopfGraphicMitsubishiGraphicWindowsGraphicApp leGraphicNikeGraphicAdidas So what is it about these symbols, these miniature signifiers of the corporations and products we interact with in the real world, that make them so recognizable? ... /screenreader I think my question is asked by you at the end of the screenreader output ;) Seriously though: you page demonstrates the how logos can be ideogrammatic - they become instantly associated with a whole host of ideas, phrases etc (usually under the heavy influence of marketing ;D) ... This is one of the reasons, I presume, that Patrick (+ others) have been arguing that logos are genuine content. however - I argue that the issue isn't so clear cut if we take into account (and are concerned about) user environments like screenreaders / text-only browsers: the logos then just become text and, perhaps, should be marked-up as such ... [adopts Darth Vader voice] Text is the true nature of HTML, Luke: you know this to be true :D C DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE BG Image Bug
sounds a bit like the peekaboo bug. You might try the holly hack on the
problem element:
/* Hides from IE-mac \*/
* html #myBackgroundContainer
{height: 1%;}
/* End hide from IE-mac */
Stuart Sherwood wrote:
One of my sites is triggering a bug in IE where a background image
loads and displays perfectly but dissapears after it has scrolled of
the page. If you scroll all the way to the bottom and then return to
the top of the page, the bg image is no longer there.
Any idea what this bug is?
Regards,
Stuart
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Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
... however - I argue that the issue isn't so clear cut if we take into account (and are concerned about) user environments like screenreaders / text-only browsers: the logos then just become text and, perhaps, should be marked-up as such ... ... So shall we get rid of IMG element altogether? Company's name is text, logo is more. Sure it must degrade to the text in non visual environment, but it does not hurt to provide richer experience in not so limited browsers? Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
So shall we get rid of IMG element altogether? now, there's an idea ;) get rid of object too whilst we're about it! :D [... starts e-mail to w3c ...] seriously: your page (http://decaffeinated.org/archives/2005/09/27/logo) does provide an example of use of img / which can't really be argued with: the subject of the content is a primarily visual phenomena and you insert images which are examples of this ... an image gallery would be a more generic example. However, _the_ logo which is used for identifying a website: is it more important that it, (a), successfully identifies the site/company name to all users? Or, (b), that that it appears as a graphical element in the design? If you want (a), you could still quite reasonably use Patrick's h1+img suggestion, but you might also want to consider just using text and replacing it. If you want (b), then you have to use an image for practical reasons. Company's name is text, logo is more. Sure it must degrade to the text in non visual environment, but it does not hurt to provide richer experience in not so limited browsers? you're right - I have agreed with this point already. The question is this: isn't that richer experience more a matter of style, rather than content? (In which case it surely belongs in a stylesheet?) C DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Townson, Chris wrote: I think my point here is this: HTML is really a text-based medium. Images have very little meaning, for example, to a screenreader. Ah, and people call _me_ a purist! ;-) While its foundation or tool set is text, it has included imagery for longer than it did not. After 13 years, I think we have to accept that imagery is part of the web, that the web is the medium and HTML is _one_ of the tools for conveying information on that medium. The trick is to make the _web_ accessible through the use of standards. This is the Web Standards Group, not the HTML Standards Group. In practical terms, for HTML as it is today, what would your photo contribute to the content of a page? I recently marked up a page which consisted of information about employees. The design required inserting a photo of each employee next to their description: I used background images for those photos because they were not essential content. What was important was the bit which went: h3John Smith/h3 pJohn works as blah blah blah ... /p Actually, in a large organisation, with reasonable turnover, the images can be of greater importance than the text. At a place where I regularly contract, the Intranet carries just that sort of page for each employee, which is very useful if you have to find someone for a quick chat but, more importantly, it helps in security so you know whether or not to challenge someone who just got out of the lift on your secure floor. In this case, the photo _is_ essential content, in practical terms. Cheers Mark Harris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] :after/:before used for layout
I've been playing with :after lately, although not for anything serious. I've had some problems with positioning in Gecko. :after generated content cannot receive some CSS properties, including 'position', 'float', list properties, and table properties. --- http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Townson, Chris wrote: In that case, what should the alt text for an img / which is your photo be? Would it have to be 1000 words ... ? :D (that's what longdesc is there for, obviously) Drunk and tired (heck, that could be an ALT in itself), but a quick reply: - just because it may be difficult to summarise in words, does that mean an image should not be used? common lowest denominator? - use longdesc or similar where appropriate...the ALT shouldn't have patrick trying to look bad-a$$ if that wasn't the major reason for including the image in the first place - the more volatile values/mood/etc associated with an image/logo may not be conveyed in the ALT, but should permeate the rest of the copy on the page, IMHO. i.e. if a company had a modern/high tech looking logo, it would feel fairly out of place if the text were all very formal and old fashioned. so, to a certain extent, the purpose of the image should be reflected and served (reinforced) by the rest of the page. And with that...I'm off to bed ;) -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] :after/:before used for layout
Jan Brasna wrote: :after generated content cannot receive some CSS properties, including 'position', 'float', list properties, and table properties. That's CSS2. Can't find that line in CSS2.1. This seems to open for a bit more real use: The :before and :after pseudo-elements elements interact with other boxes, such as run-in boxes, as if they were real elements inserted just inside their associated element. -- http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/generate.html Firefox won't even react to 'margin', as exemplified by W3C (CSS21), while Opera, Safari, and even iCab, are doing fine with simple 'margin' and absolute positioning. Only Opera seems to be able to handle 'positioned :hover:after'. So, what are we supposed to be able to do with these pseudo-elements in the future? Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Web developers Voice recognition software
Hi Guys, This is probably not the forum for this question, but it does relate to accessibility and web standards to a degree...but, I've been diagnosed with an Occupational Overuse Syndrome related injury and am looking for ways to continue working as a web developer without aggravating the injury any further. One suggestion has been to purchase some voice recognition software for my PC so that I can reduce the amount of typing and mouse use. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this and coding? From what little I've seen on the subject, some of the software available is quite good for simple things like word processing (once you've trained the program to respond to your voice properly) but how would it go with coding? Any advice or suggestion would be greatly appreciated. Regards Brad Lucas ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
On 12/10/05 12:10 AM, Townson, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think my point here is this: HTML is really a text-based medium. Images have very little meaning, for example, to a screenreader. Then why is there an img element? And what about those who can't read but enjoy using the internet for it *visual content*? Let's not exclude pre-schoolers and those with a mental disability like my friend's 21 yr old autistic son who can't read but enjoys surfing the web. And for some sites the main content is visual not text-based, like for a photographer or an artist. I don't buy a photograph or painting because I like its text-based description. Hope Stewart ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
ADMIN Re: [WSG] Web developers Voice recognition software
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 10:15:56 +1000, Brad Lucas wrote: One suggestion has been to purchase some voice recognition software for my PC so that I can reduce the amount of typing and mouse use. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this and coding? I would suggest that most replies to this need to go offlist, so think about the content of your post as you are deciding the to: field. However, I am sure it will also inspire some interesting points that are in line with standards and accessability. Please do post those here :) Hope you get what you need to keep doing good work, Brad! warmly, Lea -- WSG Core Group Member ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] :after/:before used for layout
On 12 Oct 2005, at 8:48 am, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: Jan Brasna wrote: :after generated content cannot receive some CSS properties, including 'position', 'float', list properties, and table properties. That's CSS2. Can't find that line in CSS2.1. All those properties are perfectly fine in CSS 2.1. Unfortunately, those are not yet supported in Gecko browsers https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=238072 [...] Firefox won't even react to 'margin', as exemplified by W3C (CSS21), while Opera, Safari, and even iCab, are doing fine with simple 'margin' and absolute positioning. Only Opera seems to be able to handle 'positioned :hover:after'. ?? margin seems to work perfectly fine here. Both on Firefox 1.6a1 nightly trunk build and Firefox 1.5beta 2 http:dev.l-c-n.com/_temp/after.php (the word blah in a grey box after each paragraph, and the word 'the End' as body:after) Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Re: Date verification in HTML pages
Google indexes web sites, so the information that they have would be dated to when the contents were chached. For example if you google 'baseball' you will get a list of results. If you read it you will notice that they have a date (all the ones dated were cached on 9 Oct 2005). The ones near the bottom aren't dated, but if you look at google's cache, it has the date listed on it. As far as the websites themselves. HTTP headers have a category for 'Last-Modified' and the same thing can also be done using a meta / tag (however, this is rare and poor practice). Unfortunatly the Last-Modified header it usually isn't useful for what your looking for because many site generate dynamic content. (I can give a longer explaination if you want it). Ultimately it's up to the web developer to provide that information in a way that make sense for the application. Blogs, for example, will include the date of writting and possibly information on any edits (ins and del would be useful for this). It's something that usability people can push, but the w3 can't really enforce it in any meaningful way. Alan Trick Vignesh Mathivanan wrote: Hello, I have a question that has been in my mind for a while now. As a novice web developer, I frequently rely on the web to provide me with technical help/guide on various topics to help build web applications. During these occasions I find it increasingly difficult to verify the date of last modification of the web document returned by Google search. This is very important as the end user needs a way to ensure that those web pages providing content on issues that change over time are up to date. Is there a credible way of verifying this date or if not could it be enforced by the consortium in future HTML versions? Thank you, Regards, VIGNESH ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Keep all content to a single page using CSS for printing?
Hi standardistas, Is it possible to keep all content to a single page using CSS for printing? I have a client that made it a requirement. The client is fairly pedantic. Regards, Martin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Keep all content to a single page using CSS for printing?
Is it possible to keep all content to a single page using CSS for
printing?
body {font-size: 1px}
in a print style sheet ought to do it most of the time :-)
john
John Allsopp
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Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com
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RE: [WSG] Keep all content to a single page using CSS for printing?
Is it possible to keep all content to a single page using CSS for printing? Not to my knowledge. You can maximise the chances of it happening by setting the font-size, padding, margins (margins can be negative) and line-height of elements. But ultimately the amount of content in a page will determine the amount of paper needed. Readability and browser differences when printing should also be taken into consideration. Grant -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Martin Smales Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 12:32 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Keep all content to a single page using CSS for printing? Hi standardistas, Is it possible to keep all content to a single page using CSS for printing? I have a client that made it a requirement. The client is fairly pedantic. Regards, Martin ** This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain privileged information or confidential information or both. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender. ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Safari FOUC was site check: liquid.rdpdesign.com
It does appear that you've killed the Safari FOUC. You should document this as appears to be somewhat of a mystery. Nicely Done! Steve Ferguson - http://illumit.com On Oct 10, 2005, at 11:31 PM, Christian Montoya wrote: Safari FOUC ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Date verification in HTML pages
My impression has been that the only reliable method for dating is in the actual content of the documents. Especially with so many dynamic applications being used for web sites, it's up to the site maintainer to include with each article the date when it was written and last modified. That seems a lot more dependable than having the server or the document header store these things. At least with blogs, every article has a date. The dates are kept in the database. As we see more web content moved into databases, this will probably be the case, especially if you are running a CMS where every document is generated from a database, and you just have static document templates... the only place to store date information is in the database. -- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
Re: [WSG] Keep all content to a single page using CSS for printing?
Use this: printer {paper-select: xx-long;}And you can use the * usb hack for epson printers, since they don't like the xx-long property. I hate pedantic clients. -- - C Montoya
rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
Re: [WSG] :after/:before used for layout
Philippe Wittenbergh wrote: ?? margin seems to work perfectly fine here. Both on Firefox 1.6a1 nightly trunk build and Firefox 1.5beta 2 http:dev.l-c-n.com/_temp/after.php (the word blah in a grey box after each paragraph, and the word 'the End' as body:after) Working at my end too - once I got my gray cells cranked up. - FF need 'display: block' since it doesn't get 'block' through 'AP'. Now, how do one add an empty 'alt-attr' to an image introduced as 'content'. The reason for asking is that Opera show image when images are off and during slow loading, and that's not quite good enough. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Keep all content to a single page using CSS for printing?
Now for the honest answer, try removing anything on the page that isn't needed. Just print the actual content, and yes, make it small.
Re: [WSG] :after/:before used for layout
On 12 Oct 2005, at 1:00 pm, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: Philippe Wittenbergh wrote: ?? margin seems to work perfectly fine here. Both on Firefox 1.6a1 nightly trunk build and Firefox 1.5beta 2 http:dev.l-c-n.com/_temp/after.php (the word blah in a grey box after each paragraph, and the word 'the End' as body:after) Working at my end too - once I got my gray cells cranked up. - FF need 'display: block' since it doesn't get 'block' through 'AP'. It works with inline elements as well :-); but vertical margins won't affect the flow. Now, how do one add an empty 'alt-attr' to an image introduced as 'content'. The reason for asking is that Opera show image when images are off and during slow loading, and that's not quite good enough. I don't think it is possible with the current CSS 2.1 syntax. IIRC, there has been some discussion about this on www-style, without any conclusion so far. More like a 'feature request'. Probably something for CSS 3. Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
I first wanted to say thanks to Derek and Graham for providing all this really great info. Not that I'm fussed and purely playing devil's advocate but I cannot help but see some kind of irony in having an accessibility guideline document in .doc format. It's like the righteous word scribed on the devil's stationery or something, I can hear the indignant echoes of the do not send .doc files argument [1]. I did want to comment that the form error in the label suggestions Derek gave have really got me thinking about how my CMS returns users to forms and alerts them. I was simply having the form errors at the top of the page and changing the appearance of the relevant field's label. This is clearly not good enough for screenreaders and until listening to (WE05 podcast) and reading the examples I had not thought through to a good solution. I presume that what would be best would be a combination of a message like Please check the errors indicated in the form below ...at the top of the form and have the this must not be blank on the relevant field(s)? Thanks, Nick [1] http://www.google.com/search?q=do+not+send+word+.doc+files Hi all, January this year, when I was still working for Telstra I rewrote their Universal Accessibility Guidelines document http://www.telstra.com.au/standards/docs/accb_03001.doc. You may be interested to have a look at the section on forms and the examples I wrote there. Regards Graham Cook UA Oz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Derek Featherstone Sent: Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:56 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org On 10/11/05, Terrence Wood wrote: Agreed, you are absolutely correct. Doh! I didn't acutally check the source code, no wonder my earlier post was confusing. Sorry Derek. No worries... If anyone *is* interested in replicating Dereks layout without the extra div's try this: snip / for what it's worth - I did try using that at certain points, but generally preferred to add in explicit divs to provide another hook for styling. YMMV - I also preferred to place each row in a block level element so that without author styles each form field and its label is still on a row of its own, though that use case may not be as important. Now then, I'd better get back to it so that I can post the second round of examples... :) Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Hi Nick, Producing a .doc may seem incongruous, but it is just one of around 150 documents covering all Telstra's online standards including wap, platform, styleguides information architecture etc. They are also a part of the overall online documentation repository which includes many product brochures and externally sourced documents comprising over 25,000 files. There is/was an ongoing project to convert these to more accessible formats but since they closed my department (Online Standards) I don't know of the progress now (if any). Grgards Graham Cook UA Oz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Lo Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 2:59 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org I first wanted to say thanks to Derek and Graham for providing all this really great info. Not that I'm fussed and purely playing devil's advocate but I cannot help but see some kind of irony in having an accessibility guideline document in .doc format. It's like the righteous word scribed on the devil's stationery or something, I can hear the indignant echoes of the do not send .doc files argument [1]. I did want to comment that the form error in the label suggestions Derek gave have really got me thinking about how my CMS returns users to forms and alerts them. I was simply having the form errors at the top of the page and changing the appearance of the relevant field's label. This is clearly not good enough for screenreaders and until listening to (WE05 podcast) and reading the examples I had not thought through to a good solution. I presume that what would be best would be a combination of a message like Please check the errors indicated in the form below ...at the top of the form and have the this must not be blank on the relevant field(s)? Thanks, Nick [1] http://www.google.com/search?q=do+not+send+word+.doc+files Hi all, January this year, when I was still working for Telstra I rewrote their Universal Accessibility Guidelines document http://www.telstra.com.au/standards/docs/accb_03001.doc. You may be interested to have a look at the section on forms and the examples I wrote there. Regards Graham Cook UA Oz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Derek Featherstone Sent: Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:56 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org On 10/11/05, Terrence Wood wrote: Agreed, you are absolutely correct. Doh! I didn't acutally check the source code, no wonder my earlier post was confusing. Sorry Derek. No worries... If anyone *is* interested in replicating Dereks layout without the extra div's try this: snip / for what it's worth - I did try using that at certain points, but generally preferred to add in explicit divs to provide another hook for styling. YMMV - I also preferred to place each row in a block level element so that without author styles each form field and its label is still on a row of its own, though that use case may not be as important. Now then, I'd better get back to it so that I can post the second round of examples... :) Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
On 10/12/05, Nick Lo wrote: I did want to comment that the form error in the label suggestions Derek gave have really got me thinking about how my CMS returns users to forms and alerts them. Hi Nick, That's good - that was my intent! Actually, that was my intent with most of what is already there, and will be there soon (read: there are more examples on the way - and, incidentally I've added a feed to the site so that people can be notified when I post a new example. I can't guarantee I'll be posting a lot more there beyond what I presented at WE05, but I will be posting the rest of those examples over the next while) I presume that what would be best would be a combination of a message like Please check the errors indicated in the form below at the top of the form and have the this must not be blank on the relevant field(s)? I think that would be very reasonable, yes. For what it's worth, I've had a tough time abstracting the examples, both in preparation for presenting them at WE05, and for posting them on the web. Not presenting them in context makes certain parts difficult - cf. my use of the zoom layout to change *only* the form layout itself, and nothing about the colours/contrast/size of the rest of the page. At a certain point, though, I needed to leave the rest to your imagination. Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
