Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?

[Jan Brasna]

ALA: Greg Kise - CSS Talking Points: Selling Clients on Web Standards

--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

tee wrote:
... For us who believed in web standards, it all sounds very
beautiful and convincing, but for companies who provides services,
they want web sites, they want their web sites looks nice and
professional  and they want it to be affordable. They simply want to
know how much it will cost right, nothing behind the scene will
interest them.
Web standards includes many things that most clients and many web
designers may easily overlook -- and someone will have to pay for later.
Here are "a few" points that most clients may understand only too well:

... it all comes down to money, doesn't it?
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?

[Matthew Bailey]

Clients, as I'm sure you are aware, are always more than interested in
dollars (or the unit of currency they prefer :) )
Why not promote the benefits of designing to standards as a way to
increase the accessibility and usability of a site? The more usable and
accessible a site is, the greater the chance that potential customers
aren't going to look elsewhere for that all important product or service
because the site didn't work properly for them or they weren't able to
access the information they were after.
Even if only a small number of customers become repeat customers because
the site was usable and accessible for them, your clients would probably
be interested in increasing their profit margins by even a small amount -
ask any business manager: it's far easier and more profitable to have
repeat customers than to attract new ones with advertising and marketing,
assuming of course that these clients will actually market their site
rather than just making it live and waiting (for a long time) for
customers to just start arriving...
At 03:39 PM 12/04/2005, tee wrote:
Hi, I'd been doing web design on
the side since last year. I believe in web
standards, but I am not sure about potential clients who want to pay me
do
the job will believe it. For us who believed in web standards, it all
sounds
very beautiful and convincing, but for companies who provides services,
they
want web sites, they want their web sites looks nice and
professional  and
they want it to be affordable. They simply want to know how much it
will
cost right, nothing behind the scene will interest them.
What is the incentive for us to tell potential clients that web standards
is
important and how many people in this group successfully using web
standards
as selling point for their web design service. Do you increase your
ballpark
as a result?
In my web design site, I do brag about web standards and that I care,
but
when I talk to potential clients (so far only two), I didn't even
mention
it; they didn't ask either even though they have visited my site. To me,
web
standards is something I believe in, but I do not see any benefit
when
approaching potential clients.

tee

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=
Matthew Bailey
Web Developer Trainee (Co-op)
Level 11, 126 Margaret Street, Brisbane, QLD 4001
Phone: (07) 3864 9450 (x9450)
Mobile: 0417 595 490

http://www.its.qut.edu.au/webservices 
For urgent web enquires please call x4001
CRICOS No: 00213J
=


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Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?

[Rick Faaberg]

On 4/11/05 10:39 PM "tee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

> In my web design site, I do brag about web standards and that I care, but
> when I talk to potential clients (so far only two), I didn't even mention
> it; they didn't ask either even though they have visited my site. To me, web
> standards is something I believe in, but I do not see any benefit when
> approaching potential clients.

My two accounts don't give a rat's *ss about web standards. They want their
product up-front-center and they want to close sales.

On one of my accounts, I've learned this the hard way.

IMO, we use web standards for our convenience and efficiency - doesn't have
anything to do with the clients' needs unless you have clients that somehow
have a 'nut' for web standards. I don't have any currently.

Rick Faaberg

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Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?

[Bruce Morrison]

I think this is an interesting point.  We moved to using CSS based
layouts almost 2 years ago now.  At first it was a struggle to get the 
designers to break out of using spacer GIFs and tables, 6 months in and
they couldn't face going back to work on table based sites.

We have found that the use of CSS layouts means we can apply designs in
much less time than we were able to with table based ones. We are able
to produce a better product in less time, changes to the design are much
easier, clients and designers are happier :)

In terms of using it as a selling point, you are right, most clients
don't care (or more likely are not aware of the benefits). Perhaps you
should look on it as client education as opposed to a selling point?

Cheers
Bruce

On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 15:39, tee wrote:
> Hi, I'd been doing web design on the side since last year. I believe in web
> standards, but I am not sure about potential clients who want to pay me do
> the job will believe it. For us who believed in web standards, it all sounds
> very beautiful and convincing, but for companies who provides services, they
> want web sites, they want their web sites looks nice and professional  and
> they want it to be affordable. They simply want to know how much it will
> cost right, nothing behind the scene will interest them.
> 
> What is the incentive for us to tell potential clients that web standards is
> important and how many people in this group successfully using web standards
> as selling point for their web design service. Do you increase your ballpark
> as a result?
> 
> In my web design site, I do brag about web standards and that I care, but
> when I talk to potential clients (so far only two), I didn't even mention
> it; they didn't ask either even though they have visited my site. To me, web
> standards is something I believe in, but I do not see any benefit when
> approaching potential clients.
> 
> 
> tee
> 
> 
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>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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-- 
Bruce Morrison
designIT http://www.designit.com.au

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Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?

[Johnno Shadbolt]

As you say, sadly not too many companies know about web standards, and
why they are important to them.

So it isn't really an option to make web standards a selling point,
but the company will be happy when they don't receive any complaints
about compatibility issues and such.

-- 
Johnno Shadbolt
Web Developer
[EMAIL PROTECTED], www.code215.com

It is easy to make a website that any computer likes.
It is hard to make a website that any user likes.
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Re: [WSG] web design presentation: advice?

[Donna Jones]

Hi, I enjoyed reading your message and good points, of course.  I've 
actually marked it for saving (well, I knew all of them but you said it 
all succiently!).

One other point I like to make is that *color is free* on the web versus 
the print world.

good luck with your presentation, Zulema!
Cheers
Donna

heretic wrote:
heya,

I'm going to make a presentation to art students on an introduction to
web design and would like some advice (besides how to deal with the
butterfiles in the stomach). 

A few points
1) 
Many artsts claim that the limitations of web design restricts
creativity. Realistically, a) it's not *that* limited, and b)
limitation is a source of inspiration anyway.

To this end I'd head that argument off at the pass by showing them the
CSS Zen Garden (it's an old chestnut to us, but they probably won't
have seen it).
2)
Continuing the faux-eastern theme, they probably need to understand
that the web is not print - again, an old chestnut: The Dao of Web
Design (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dao/).
Let the web be the web - they will need to create a design which
changes slightly and yet retains its spirit. A few pixels here and
there is of no real concern. Just as they cannot control the mood of a
patron viewing a painting, they cannot control the equipment used by
their audience.
3)
The web is like a print job with an unlimited budget (well ok, not
really). But seriously - they won't run out of paper on the web, nor
do they have to put up with cheap paper stock.
So they will never need to cram an essay onto an A5 sheet - they can
let a website breathe and spread comfortably. White space is just as
important online as it is anywhere else.
4)
Just like anything else, the medium is not the message. Their designs
need to make the substance shine - they wouldn't get away with
typesetting a novel in 6pt microtext; so they shouldn't expect to do
it online.
5)
Finally.. not everyone has a Mac G5 with a 20inch cinema display.
So don't design pages according to their own gear! :)
Not sure any of that really helps you, but man it was therapeutic to write 
it :)
cheers,
h
--
Donna Jones
West End Webs  772-0266
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[WSG] Web standards as a selling point?

[tee]

Hi, I'd been doing web design on the side since last year. I believe in web
standards, but I am not sure about potential clients who want to pay me do
the job will believe it. For us who believed in web standards, it all sounds
very beautiful and convincing, but for companies who provides services, they
want web sites, they want their web sites looks nice and professional  and
they want it to be affordable. They simply want to know how much it will
cost right, nothing behind the scene will interest them.

What is the incentive for us to tell potential clients that web standards is
important and how many people in this group successfully using web standards
as selling point for their web design service. Do you increase your ballpark
as a result?

In my web design site, I do brag about web standards and that I care, but
when I talk to potential clients (so far only two), I didn't even mention
it; they didn't ask either even though they have visited my site. To me, web
standards is something I believe in, but I do not see any benefit when
approaching potential clients.


tee


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Re: [WSG] web design presentation: advice?

[heretic]

heya,

> I'm going to make a presentation to art students on an introduction to
> web design and would like some advice (besides how to deal with the
> butterfiles in the stomach). 

A few points

1) 
Many artsts claim that the limitations of web design restricts
creativity. Realistically, a) it's not *that* limited, and b)
limitation is a source of inspiration anyway.

To this end I'd head that argument off at the pass by showing them the
CSS Zen Garden (it's an old chestnut to us, but they probably won't
have seen it).

2)
Continuing the faux-eastern theme, they probably need to understand
that the web is not print - again, an old chestnut: The Dao of Web
Design (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dao/).

Let the web be the web - they will need to create a design which
changes slightly and yet retains its spirit. A few pixels here and
there is of no real concern. Just as they cannot control the mood of a
patron viewing a painting, they cannot control the equipment used by
their audience.

3)
The web is like a print job with an unlimited budget (well ok, not
really). But seriously - they won't run out of paper on the web, nor
do they have to put up with cheap paper stock.

So they will never need to cram an essay onto an A5 sheet - they can
let a website breathe and spread comfortably. White space is just as
important online as it is anywhere else.

4)
Just like anything else, the medium is not the message. Their designs
need to make the substance shine - they wouldn't get away with
typesetting a novel in 6pt microtext; so they shouldn't expect to do
it online.

5)
Finally.. not everyone has a Mac G5 with a 20inch cinema display.
So don't design pages according to their own gear! :)


Not sure any of that really helps you, but man it was therapeutic to write it :)

cheers,

h

-- 
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not 
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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Re: [WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug

[Ingo Chao]

John Horner schrieb:
Not stupid at all, but I checked that and no, it's all happening via 
HTTP from a  web server, no local paths involved.
If it's not too much trouble, could we see an URL? Ingo
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Re: [WSG] CSS issues: Opera's absolute positioning

[Thierry Koblentz]

> would anybody be able to suggest a simple fix to
> get the "advanced search/preferences" list to align properly
> next to the input on my "frugal google" experiment
> http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/74/ ?

You could try to move the UL just before the text box and then use *float*
rather than an AP div...

HTH,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] web design presentation: advice?

[Wsg]

Zulema, good luck on your presentation. 
Here's a point you might like to bring up .. .designing for the web is
similar to, but not the same as designing for the printed page with glass in
front.    
I'm doing contracting work at the moment and the designer I have to work
with has a 'printed page' mindset.  He gets his knickers in a twist if
the boxes on the screen arent always the right size, and if the gaps between
one box and another are not pixel perfect and if the boxes arent identical
in width.   It's because he thinks up his designs as though
they're printed then converts that thought to the screen.   
He's bound to a life of frustration, because Macs are different to PCs in
resolution and in colours.  Different machines have different
resolutions, different preferences set etc.  His life will never be
easy while he maintains his current mindset. 
If he can let go of the notion that designing for the printed page and
for the web are different disciplines, he'll have a much easier life. 
He ought to start out knowing that he's going to have fluid layouts,
colour variations between one machine and another, users who like fonts
bigger or smaller than others and that they should be allowed
to.   Then if he thinks that way from the beginning, the designs
he comes up with will have that flexibility built in. Then his time writing
html and CSS will be far easier and his sites will work far better.
You wouldn't approach designing a car the same way you approach designing
a bus, even though they both have colours, upholstery, engineering, wheels
etc.  And that analogy applies to web design as opposed to print
design.  There are a lot of similarities but they arent identical
jobs.
Good luck with the presentation - let us know how it goes.
CheersMike KearWindsor, NSW, Australia,Macromedia Advanced
Certified ColdFusion DeveloperAFP Webworkshttp://afpwebworks.com

- Original Message From:
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgTo: "Web Standards"
Subject: [WSG] web design presentation:
advice?Date: 12/04/05 02:36Hi all,I'm going to make a presentation to art students
on an introduction toweb design and would like some advice (besides how
to deal with thebutterfiles in the stomach). First the
stats:[snip]


Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.2


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Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in an English web site

[tee]

> 
> My concern (and that of my client) is for those people who do not have
> Chinese (of either variety) installed on their machine and don't want
> to. If an typical user comes upon a section of the page that doesn't
> display in readable fashion, their assumption is likely to be that the
> site does not work. It is always my fault, not theirs. I'm attempting to
> find a way around that
I wouldn't worry at all. If people who don't know Chinese and don't have
Chinese font installed on their system, and if they accidentally or out of
curiousity click on a Chinese page link, they can click back button back to
the English page. To be honest, I would be astonished if they are people be
so ignorant that when they click a link that clearly indicate a
Chinese/Japanese/ page and see funny characters and blame the web designer
or the company.
One way to ease your client' unnecessary anxiety is to have both
Chinese/English displayed in the link menu, so that the user know which
button to choose to click back to English site. I know many international
corporate website do this, and actually quite a fashion for Korean websites.
If this method still can't please your client, perhaps he/she should have a
big headline in Every Chinese page announce in English that "this page you
are seeing is a Chinese page". But this will looks very silly.
There are so many thing we can't control even we try our very best.

By the way, Mac IE 5.2 does not have good support for Unicode Chinese, and
this browser still have significant users who use OS 9.  If you client cares
the Chinese audiences, it's better to have Chinese page coded in GB and
Big5.

tee



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[WSG] web design presentation: advice?

[info]

Hi all,
I'm going to make a presentation to art students on an introduction to  
web design and would like some advice (besides how to deal with the 
butterfiles in the stomach). First the stats:

   Audience: art students who want to create portfolio websites to
   showcase their art work
   Goal: to introduce art students to web design to encourage them to
   learn more
   Teacher's Goal: to encourage the students to take web design classes
   in their same school to learn web design/coding
   Link: Intro to Web Design | http://www.zoblue.com/web-design/index.html
Of course it's still in the works, but this is what I'll be presenting 
to them and discussing the points as I go.  I used  S5[1] to create my 
short presentation.

I'd love feedback. any suggestions? any ideas? I present it tomorrow in 
the evening.

thanks in advance!
Zulema
[1] Meyerweb - S5 | http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/
Z u l e m a  O r t i z
w e b  d e s i g n e r
email : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
website : http://zoblue.com/
weblog : http://blog.zoblue.com/
browser : http://getfirefox.com/ 

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Re: [WSG] CSS issues: Opera's absolute positioning

[Lea de Groot]

On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 02:30:24 +0100, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
> Well that's just peachy...so basically, there's no way to override 
> this, as it will always take precedence over anything I can do with 
> my styles thanks to the ! important. Interestingly, these rules 
> weren't in my forms.css, but now that I've manually edited it, I can 
> see exactly what's happening. Infuriating...this makes the already 
> difficult legend even more difficult to style. *sigh*

Hmmm... not quite. IIRC, you could assign an id to the legend and style 
that and that should override the less specific style.
Havent followed the earlier thread to know if that is possible for you

Lea
~ looking for a permanent position in Brisbane. Got anything?
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] CSS issues: Opera's absolute positioning

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On 12 Apr 2005, at 10:30 am, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Well that's just peachy...so basically, there's no way to override 
this, as it will always take precedence over anything I can do with my 
styles thanks to the ! important. Interestingly, these rules weren't 
in my forms.css, but now that I've manually edited it, I can see 
exactly what's happening. Infuriating...this makes the already 
difficult legend even more difficult to style. *sigh*
The behaviour changed after the release of Firefox 1.0 / Gecko1.7x.
There is this related bug in Bugzilla:

Based on the comments, I don't expect anything to change soon.
And, agreed, it doesn't make it easier to style the legend. :-/
Philippe
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : 
code | design | web projects : 
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : 
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Re: [WSG] more on flashish stuff: SVG

[Dmitry Baranovskiy]

Well, yes, I used embed, but it was done 2 years ago, so may be it
doesn't work in Opera now. But it definitely works in IE after Adobe
plug-in installation.

On Apr 12, 2005 9:33 AM, Kornel Lesinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 00:02:52 +0100, Dmitry Baranovskiy
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I have developed some projects on SVG
> > (http://siter.com.au/dmitry/Pie/pie.html ,
> > http://siter.com.au/dmitry/Composer/Composer.html ,
> > http://siter.com.au/dmitry/MaxControl/index.html , etc.) It is very
> > powerfull thing, but there are few companies that interested in SVG
> > development. Flash rules, dispite that SVG is standard.
> 
> I'm using Opera 8b3, which has SVG1.1 Tiny support built-in,
> but on your site I only see empty boxes marked "Plug-in content".
> 
> That might be because you're using  instead of 
> and serve .svg as text/plain, not image/svg+xml...
> or maybe Opera's SVG support isn't mature enough yet...
> 
> --
> regards, Kornel Lesiński
> 
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> 
> 


-- 
Best regards,
Dmitry Baranovskiy
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Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in an English web site

[Dejan Kozina]

True, those ugly squares are a real risk on any non-Unicode OS (Windows 
up to ME, MacOS up to 9), which tipically came with fonts only for their 
native codepage. Let's try again.

I tend to have strange ideas when working late at night, so if any of 
the following is wrong, non-standard or just plainly dumb, I beg your 
pardon in advance.

Assumptions:
â it has to be done with valid HTML only;
â it must comply with the acessibility guidelines;
â it must understandably (i.e. verbosely) explain the font issue;
â every 'visual' browser can at least display ASCII;
â you have enough space for a 100x25px image.
For readability's sake I'll think of an English page with a graphical 
link to its Chinese equivalent (I'm ignoring on purpose the difference 
between a language and the writing system it uses) as seen by a desktop 
browser with images on and no usable Chinese font, the same browser with 
images off, a text-only browser and a screereader.

1)For desktop browsers without a proper font for Han and images on I'd 
make an image with "Chinese version" in both writings, as in:
   a) layer 1: the background; layer 2:an English "Chinese" contrasting 
with the background; layer 3: its Han equivalent with a degree of 
transparency, so that both written layers are readable or at least 
recognizable even if overlapping; or
   b) an animated GIF showing the English text in one frame and the 
Chinese text in the next (nowadays every browser with images on can 
display a GIF89a).

2)A desktop browser with images off and a text-only browser would be 
(relatively) happy with this code:


 


as long as the alt and title attributes contain an explanation of the 
font issue. Alas, a screen-reader expects, and the accessibility 
guidelines require, any change in language to be properly marked up, and 
we can't mix languages inside the same element. So this is what I 
thought up (think Rube Goldberg):

3)


  

  
  

  


This is basically an image map with an unusual, but valid sintax for 
clickable zones. The image's alt attribute is empty because the image 
contains no additional information besides what's in the related map 
element. I might have used two plain old area elements, but the hreflang 
attribute is not allowed there. The real world value of hreflang is zero 
or thereabout (no support that I know of), but it's still required in 
WCAG. HTML 4.01 allows for hreflang in links only, and those are allowed 
in maps if contained in block-level content, so what we have here are 
two overlapping clickable areas (with the same target)within an image, 
each with its title 'tooltip' in the same language as inherited from the 
containig block element, all this without requiring lots of screen 
estate (adjust the image size to what you have available, the 'tooltips' 
will take care of themselves).

Again, sorry if there's something amiss in these night ramblings. The 
nearest coffee is still hours away...

djn
Lachlan Hardy wrote:
Well, this will teach me not to send messages to the list without proper 
sleep. I'll try and explain the situation a bit better:

The Chinese (both Traditional and Simplified) was encoded in UTF-8 and 
is displayed as UTF-8. It shows up fine for me in Firefox. It shows up 
fine in IE, if the code specifies the change of language. It shows only 
blocks in IE if simply inputted without particular language 
specification. I have not installed language packs etc, but I'm not 
fussed about that. My testing shows that the Chinese will work fine for 
those who want to see it

My concern (and that of my client) is for those people who do not have 
Chinese (of either variety) installed on their machine and don't want 
to. If an typical user comes upon a section of the page that doesn't 
display in readable fashion, their assumption is likely to be that the 
site does not work. It is always my fault, not theirs. I'm attempting to 
find a way around that

Currently, main content pages in Chinese contain a special blurb in 
English to explain that this is a Chinese page, how to see it if they 
want to and provide a link back to the English version in case they 
don't. I need to be able to either explain to users that the unreadable 
(for them) content is Chinese, or show it as Chinese consistently

Hopefully, that is a bit clearer, seeing as I've had some coffee now
Cheers,
Lachlan
--
Dejan Kozina
Dolina 346 (TS) - I-34018 Italy
tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 - cell.: +39 348 7355 225
http://www.kozina.com/  - e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty

[Jan Brasna]

Lisa, it's in the archive: 


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Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Herrod, Lisa wrote:
Cna you please point me to this document, I seem to have missed it with all
that was going on here over the weekend.
http://www.markme.com/accessibility/archives/007344.cfm
--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
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RE: [WSG] flash and accessabilty

[Herrod, Lisa]

Patrick wrote:

But just to reiterate: even if you follow the recommended practices in
Bob's document...

Cna you please point me to this document, I seem to have missed it with all
that was going on here over the weekend.

Thanks,

lisa
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Re: [WSG] CSS issues: Opera's absolute positioning

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:
The problem stems form this in the default forms.css
legend {
  ...
  position: static ! important;
  float: none ! important;
}
Ingo Chao wrote:
> I think the problem is in the browser default /res/form.css:
>
> legend { ... float: none ! important; }
Well that's just peachy...so basically, there's no way to override this, 
as it will always take precedence over anything I can do with my styles 
thanks to the ! important. Interestingly, these rules weren't in my 
forms.css, but now that I've manually edited it, I can see exactly 
what's happening. Infuriating...this makes the already difficult legend 
even more difficult to style. *sigh*

--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug

[John Horner]

Is ABC using a SOE in both Sydney and Melbourne?
Yes. Our default browser is this version of IE6.
Does the document he's working on locally refer to any stylesheets 
(that may contain hacks) with local paths (e.g. not 
network-accessible)? Sounds stupid, but simple things like that have 
caught many of us before!
Not stupid at all, but I checked that and no, it's all happening via 
HTTP from a  web server, no local paths involved.

   "Have You Validated Your Code?"
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/

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Re: [WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug

[John Horner]

How about trying the same resolution so the rendering is the same?
Didn't think of that. Good point.

   "Have You Validated Your Code?"
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/

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Re: [WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug

[Jan Brasna]

It might have something in common with specifying eg. the line-height 
(that AFAIK fixes it) automagically by the system etc.
When you say 'by the system' you mean something like IE's preferences? 
Well, rather like "Could it be CRT versus LCD monitors?" -- W2k could 
have set some different defaults when using LCD etc., but I'm really 
guessing...

--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug

[Joshua Street]

Is ABC using a SOE in both Sydney and Melbourne? Does the document he's
working on locally refer to any stylesheets (that may contain hacks)
with local paths (e.g. not network-accessible)? Sounds stupid, but
simple things like that have caught many of us before!

On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 09:59 +1000, John Horner wrote:
> the "system" is pretty much exactly the same...

Kind Regards,
Joshua Street
base10solutions



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Re: [WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug

[John Horner]

It might have something in common with specifying eg. the 
line-height (that AFAIK fixes it) automagically by the system etc.
When you say 'by the system' you mean something like IE's 
preferences? Because the "system" is pretty much exactly the same...

   "Have You Validated Your Code?"
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/

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Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in an English web site

[Lachlan Hardy]

Well, this will teach me not to send messages to the list without proper 
sleep. I'll try and explain the situation a bit better:

The Chinese (both Traditional and Simplified) was encoded in UTF-8 and 
is displayed as UTF-8. It shows up fine for me in Firefox. It shows up 
fine in IE, if the code specifies the change of language. It shows only 
blocks in IE if simply inputted without particular language 
specification. I have not installed language packs etc, but I'm not 
fussed about that. My testing shows that the Chinese will work fine for 
those who want to see it

My concern (and that of my client) is for those people who do not have 
Chinese (of either variety) installed on their machine and don't want 
to. If an typical user comes upon a section of the page that doesn't 
display in readable fashion, their assumption is likely to be that the 
site does not work. It is always my fault, not theirs. I'm attempting to 
find a way around that

Currently, main content pages in Chinese contain a special blurb in 
English to explain that this is a Chinese page, how to see it if they 
want to and provide a link back to the English version in case they 
don't. I need to be able to either explain to users that the unreadable 
(for them) content is Chinese, or show it as Chinese consistently

Hopefully, that is a bit clearer, seeing as I've had some coffee now
Cheers,
Lachlan
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Re: [WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug

[Neerav]

How about trying the same resolution so the rendering is the same?
--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services.
Recent projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ...
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http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
John Horner wrote:
A colleague is developing a table-free design, and has run up against 
the "peekaboo" bug in IE6. (If you don't know it, it's basically that 
text disappears in certain circumstances, see 
http://positioniseverything.net/explorer/peekaboo.html).

His problem is not diagnosing the bug or even fixing it, it's that it's 
not happening on *his* computer, so he has to keep asking for help from 
someone whose setup does have the bug.

I can verify that two Windows 2000 computers are involved, with exactly 
the same version of IE6, down to the tenth decimal place, and one always 
displays this bug and one never displays this bug.

Any ideas? Could it be CRT versus LCD monitors? The fact that one person 
is logged in as administrator and the other as a lowly user? Melbourne 
vs Sydney? Zodiac signs? We're scratching our heads...


   "Have You Validated Your Code?"
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/
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Re: [WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug

[Jan Brasna]

Melbourne vs Sydney?
Ah, you've discovered the Microsoft's bug impemeting policy... :D
Seriously... It might have something in common with specifying eg. the 
line-height (that AFAIK fixes it) automagically by the system etc.

--
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Re: [WSG] more on flashish stuff: SVG

[Kornel Lesinski]

On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 00:02:52 +0100, Dmitry Baranovskiy  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I have developed some projects on SVG
(http://siter.com.au/dmitry/Pie/pie.html ,
http://siter.com.au/dmitry/Composer/Composer.html ,
http://siter.com.au/dmitry/MaxControl/index.html , etc.) It is very
powerfull thing, but there are few companies that interested in SVG
development. Flash rules, dispite that SVG is standard.
I'm using Opera 8b3, which has SVG1.1 Tiny support built-in,
but on your site I only see empty boxes marked "Plug-in content".
That might be because you're using  instead of 
and serve .svg as text/plain, not image/svg+xml...
or maybe Opera's SVG support isn't mature enough yet...
--
regards, Kornel Lesiński
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[WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug

[John Horner]

A colleague is developing a table-free design, and has run up against 
the "peekaboo" bug in IE6. (If you don't know it, it's basically that 
text disappears in certain circumstances, see 
http://positioniseverything.net/explorer/peekaboo.html).

His problem is not diagnosing the bug or even fixing it, it's that 
it's not happening on *his* computer, so he has to keep asking for 
help from someone whose setup does have the bug.

I can verify that two Windows 2000 computers are involved, with 
exactly the same version of IE6, down to the tenth decimal place, and 
one always displays this bug and one never displays this bug.

Any ideas? Could it be CRT versus LCD monitors? The fact that one 
person is logged in as administrator and the other as a lowly user? 
Melbourne vs Sydney? Zodiac signs? We're scratching our heads...


   "Have You Validated Your Code?"
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/

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Re: [WSG] more on flashish stuff: SVG

[Dmitry Baranovskiy]

I have developed some projects on SVG
(http://siter.com.au/dmitry/Pie/pie.html ,
http://siter.com.au/dmitry/Composer/Composer.html ,
http://siter.com.au/dmitry/MaxControl/index.html , etc.) It is very
powerfull thing, but there are few companies that interested in SVG
development. Flash rules, dispite that SVG is standard.

On Apr 12, 2005 6:52 AM, Jan Brasna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > as far as I know, mozzilla is the only browser to have any built-in support
> 
> Opera 8 will have it too.
> 
> > Has anyone here actually done any development with SVG?
> 
> Development not, design yes. (It's quite good vector format, AFAIK
> Quartz and latest KDE use it.)
> 
> --
> Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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> 
> 


-- 
Best regards,
Dmitry Baranovskiy
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RE: [WSG] A few positioning problems

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi Stuart,

> > 1/ The navigation buttons are currently text links sitting on top of
> > backgrounds. I'm having trouble getting them to centre nicely though. If
> > someone could have a look and give me some ideas of how I can make
> > everything line up nicely, it would be greatly appreciated.
> > 
> The best case here (IMHO!) would be to replace the text with images 
> (check out ). If 
> you simply try and position the plain text, it will wreck the layout if 
> the visitor decides to resize their text.

Good point. I might just have a go at that. Thanks for the idea. :)

> > 2/ There's supposed to be a gap at the bottom of the page, 
> allowing some of
> > the background to show through under the white panel. It works 
> fine in IE,
> > but not in Mozilla (both on PC) which wasn't the result I was 
> expecting...
> > 
> If you remove 'height:100%' from your html/body rule, and add 
> 'overflow:auto;' to your '#Container' rule, that should help. It looks 
> like the internal containers were not fully contained by the 
> '#Container' container (!! ;) )

That's really weird. The fix worked, and yet I'd read somewhere that I
needed that height:100% in html and body to make the container's height
behave properly. Ah well, I guess you can't believe everything you read. ;)

> ps. glad to see the mailing list's up and running again!!

Me too. Makes it much easier to find answers to annoying little questions.
*grin*

Cheers,

Seona.

__
<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed Spam messages and set aside Later
for me
You can use it too - and it's FREE!  http://www.ellaforspam.com
<>

RE: [WSG] The name of THAT css/flash font

[Phillips, Wendy]

You might mean SIFR or Scalable Inman Flash Replacement

http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/08/sifr 


Wendy Phillips
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Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in an English web site

[Neerav]

Lachlan
If using windows make sure you've gone to: Control Panel ->Regional 
Options, and made sure the boxes for "Traditional Chinese" & "Simplified 
Chinese" are ticked

After all the people reading your site in those languages will have 
"Traditional Chinese" & "Simplified Chinese" fonts installed, you cant 
see what they see without doing the same thing

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services.
Recent projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ...
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
Lachlan Hardy wrote:
Juergen Auer wrote:
 > try to save the html-file as UTF-8 and use the chinese letters
 > directly. And add
 >
 > 
 >
 > Your solution can't work if the page is saved as Ascii / 256 Bit.
Sorry, should have mentioned that. Yes, the page is UTF-8 (by both 
server settings and meta element). That still doesn't help me. The 
Chinese characters only display correctly in IE when I specify the 
correct language

Dejan Kozina wrote:
 > 
 > 
 > 
 >
 > with the image saying something like Chinese version.
Yep, the image does indicate the version. Good idea on the HREFLANG. 
Haven't used that previously, I'll have to investigate

 > Now, if your design allows for a little padding of the  you'd have
 > the English title shortly displayed before the mouse hovers on the
 > image, so those without a proper font can roll back their mouse to the
 > link when their browser fails to display the alt text.
Unfortunately, these links are in a small sidebar. Not a lot of room for 
spare padding - okay, none. I had to shrink the images a tad to get them 
in there in the first place. Cool idea though, I might have to see if I 
can work it in somehow if I can't get a better solution

Thanks for your suggestions, guys. Anyone else want to share?
Cheers,
Lachlan
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Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in an English web site

[tee]

> 
> Juergen Auer wrote:
>> try to save the html-file as UTF-8 and use the chinese letters
>> directly. And add
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your solution can't work if the page is saved as Ascii / 256 Bit.
> 
> Sorry, should have mentioned that. Yes, the page is UTF-8 (by both
> server settings and meta element). That still doesn't help me. The
> Chinese characters only display correctly in IE when I specify the
> correct langu

Do your Chinese texts coded in unicode? If it was created in GB, you need to
convert to unicode.


For a multilanguage site, even it's set to UTF-8, your visitors still can't
see the Chinese or other languages if they don't have that language' fonts
installed. For the main page with link to Chinese, you may want to make the
Chinese text to graphic.
Browsers automatically detect the Charset. If your Chinese text doesn't
work, chances are, it's not properly coded.

You can see my Chinese page in Unicode, when mouse over, the Chinese texts
in 'title' or 'alt' display beautifully except in Mac' IE 5.2 which never
able to show Chinese texts in html tags.

http://www.lotusseeds.com/traditional.html
http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html
> 
HTH
tee

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Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in an English web site

[Juergen Auer]

On 12 Apr 2005 at 7:30, Lachlan Hardy wrote:

> Sorry, should have mentioned that. Yes, the page is UTF-8 (by both 
> server settings and meta element). That still doesn't help me. 

Hi Lachlan,

is it possible that you put a test page online?

Normally I would say that this has to work. It may be a problem with 
the BOM.

Another solution would be to use entities (&#x ...;).

Cheers

Juergen Auer
http://www.sql-und-xml.de/

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Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in an English web site

[Lachlan Hardy]

Juergen Auer wrote:
> try to save the html-file as UTF-8 and use the chinese letters
> directly. And add
>
> 
>
> Your solution can't work if the page is saved as Ascii / 256 Bit.
Sorry, should have mentioned that. Yes, the page is UTF-8 (by both 
server settings and meta element). That still doesn't help me. The 
Chinese characters only display correctly in IE when I specify the 
correct language

Dejan Kozina wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>
> with the image saying something like Chinese version.
Yep, the image does indicate the version. Good idea on the HREFLANG. 
Haven't used that previously, I'll have to investigate

> Now, if your design allows for a little padding of the  you'd have
> the English title shortly displayed before the mouse hovers on the
> image, so those without a proper font can roll back their mouse to the
> link when their browser fails to display the alt text.
Unfortunately, these links are in a small sidebar. Not a lot of room for 
spare padding - okay, none. I had to shrink the images a tad to get them 
in there in the first place. Cool idea though, I might have to see if I 
can work it in somehow if I can't get a better solution

Thanks for your suggestions, guys. Anyone else want to share?
Cheers,
Lachlan
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Re: [WSG] more float problems

[Thierry Koblentz]

> Its the input buttons that are floated and overlapping causing the
>> .sectionfooter| to shove over.

Try :
div.sectionfooter {clear:left}

Also make sure you set a background-color for body, because white is not the
color by default ;-)

HTH,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] more on flashish stuff: SVG

[Jan Brasna]

as far as I know, mozzilla is the only browser to have any built-in support
Opera 8 will have it too.
Has anyone here actually done any development with SVG?
Development not, design yes. (It's quite good vector format, AFAIK 
Quartz and latest KDE use it.)

--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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[WSG] The name of THAT css/flash font

[Genau L. Júnior]

Few days ago, i was reading an article that said something about a new 
font swf based, that coud be possible be called by .css .

Does anyone knows how´s the name of that new font.?
Thanks.
--
att,


Genau L. Júnior
___
WebDesigner/Media Developer
www.meucarronovo.com.br/quemsomos.php
+55 (41)342-5757
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[WSG] more float problems

[Alan Trick]

Hi,
Normally IE seems to ignore the proper rules of floats and expand boxes
to fit them.  Using this and overflow:auto for the other
browsers that do the rules properly, is usually a fairly simple
solution to the overlapping float problem.  However, I've have a page
that uses overflow:auto, and for some odd reason, IE is
making floats overlap, causing all sorts of havoc.

Here's a page: http://jellybean.uni.cc/contact.php (it looks right in
firefox, wrong in IE, I haven't tested w/ a mac)

Its the input buttons that are floated and overlapping causing the .sectionfooter
to shove over.

Any suggestions/help on what is causeing this?

Alan Trick

Re: [WSG] IE problem

[Stuart Homfray]

Javier wrote:
What I did work well in Firefox, but when my friend saw it with his IE6 it
was horrible !!!  :(
I used the classic two columns inside a container. Left column float to
left and the other to right side. IE 6, ignores the width size of left side
and show it bigger than expected then right side goes down. Also, right
side right margin is bigger than in Firefox.
I've seen hacks over the net and used one to define sizes in IE...but this
problem is driving me crazy...
Javier,
I always find that the best course of action is to strip away all of the 
hacks, and rewrite the stylesheet from scratch - it doesn't take all 
that long as you know the required result and you have most of the style 
rules already (more or less!), so it's pretty much a 'cut-and-paste' job!

In fact, I've just done this myself - it took about 10mins or so - have 
a look at trying  
instead of your current stylesheets.

cheers,
Stuart
--
===
El Bombin
http://elbombin.stuarthomfray.co.uk
Stuart Homfray
http://www.stuarthomfray.co.uk
===
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Re: [WSG] The mail problem

[Ryan]

Title: Re: [WSG] The mail problem



Your not the only one.

--
Ryan


On 4/11/05 5:45 AM, "Simon Jessey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I'd feel much better having Russ in charge of a nuclear arsenal than George W. Bush, but that's just me. Thank you for taking the appropriate measures.
 
Simon Jessey


Business Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Personal Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Business Site:  http://keystonewebsites.com/
Personal Site:  http://jessey.net/
 
 
 
 
- Original Message - 
 
From:  russ -  maxdesign   
 
To: Web Standards Group   
And  in case you are wondering who suggested shutting down the whole  mail
server... You guessed it, that was me. Just don't let me near any  nuclear
weapons!

Re: [WSG] IE problem

[Thierry Koblentz]

> I've seen hacks over the net and used one to define sizes in IE...but
> this problem is driving me crazy...

Hi Javier,
As Alan said, you should use display:inline on every float that include
margins, but I believe you need more than that to fix your problem. Try
this:
#contizq {
display:inline;
width:170px !important;
...
...
}

HTH,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

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[WSG] more on flashish stuff: SVG

[Alan Trick]

Hi, I'll sort of try this again, and hope the gods don't mail-bomb us :P.
SVG isn't quite flash, because it's not proprietary technology, but it's 
not terribly accesible either, because as far as I know, mozzilla is the 
only browser to have any built-in support for it (adobe has an svg 
plugin for IE). I guess one of the biggest differences here is that SVG 
has a future, where as flash is bound to the world of proprietary formats.
Has anyone here actually done any development with SVG?

Alan Trick
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Re: [WSG] IE problem

[Alan Trick]

Ah yes, those problems.  IE is quite bugy when it comes to floats.  Try 
putting |display:inline| on everything that is floated.
http://positioniseverything.net/explorer/doubled-margin.html

Alan Trick
Javier wrote:
Hi
I'm developing a site for a friend of mine and have some rare problems.
What I did work well in Firefox, but when my friend saw it with his IE6 it
was horrible !!!  :(
I used the classic two columns inside a container. Left column float to
left and the other to right side. IE 6, ignores the width size of left side
and show it bigger than expected then right side goes down. Also, right
side right margin is bigger than in Firefox.
I've seen hacks over the net and used one to define sizes in IE...but this
problem is driving me crazy...
You can see a page test in:
http://home.leyba.com.ar/test/
I've defined borders in left and right columns to allow to see the
problem...
Any help or clue will be appreciated...
Thanks in advance
Javier
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[WSG] IE problem

[Javier]

Hi

I'm developing a site for a friend of mine and have some rare problems.

What I did work well in Firefox, but when my friend saw it with his IE6 it
was horrible !!!  :(

I used the classic two columns inside a container. Left column float to
left and the other to right side. IE 6, ignores the width size of left side
and show it bigger than expected then right side goes down. Also, right
side right margin is bigger than in Firefox.

I've seen hacks over the net and used one to define sizes in IE...but this
problem is driving me crazy...

You can see a page test in:

http://home.leyba.com.ar/test/

I've defined borders in left and right columns to allow to see the
problem...

Any help or clue will be appreciated...

Thanks in advance

Javier




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Re: [WSG] The mail problem

[Carl Reynolds]

russ - maxdesign wrote:
Can I just add here that Scott Parsons is definitely not the person who's
email address was the problem - although his email post hit the list in
spectacular fashion it was not his fault in any way.
And in case you are wondering who suggested shutting down the whole mail
server... You guessed it, that was me. Just don't let me near any nuclear
weapons!
Again, thanks everyone for your patience.
Russ

 

I've spoken to the person who's email address was the problem and I am not
holding the person responsible for the issues.
   

 

I guess these things happen from time to time. In case of a similar problem in
the future I'll alert a few other people on how to suspend the list without
shutting down the whole mail server.
   

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russ,
I'd feel real safe having you near any nuclear weapons if every time 
there were a problem your reaction is to shut them down.


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Re: [WSG] {Spam?} email alternate content

[Hassan Schroeder]

Kvnmcwebn wrote:
Ive designed an html email template with tables images etc.
Is there a way to provide an alternative non-html email content for those
who dont have html email capabilities.
Google a bit on 'MIME multipart/alternative'
HTH,
--
Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com
  dream.  code.
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[WSG] {Spam?} email alternate content

[Kvnmcwebn]

Ive designed an html email template with tables images etc.

Is there a way to provide an alternative non-html email content for those
who dont have html email capabilities.

-Kvnmcewbn

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Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in an English web site

[Dejan Kozina]

Not sure, but I'll try:



with the image saying something like Chinese version.
Now, if your design allows for a little padding of the  you'd have 
the English title shortly displayed before the mouse hovers on the 
image, so those without a proper font can roll back their mouse to the 
link when their browser fails to display the alt text.

Lachlan Hardy wrote:
G'day folks!
A query for those with some experience in using multiple languages in
their sites:
In a site that is predominantly English, select pages have been
translated into both Simplified and Traditional Chinese. Each page
contains a link where users are able to indicate their preferred
language (hence receiving translated pages as appropriate). My issue is
how to show this this link appropriately
Originally I had something similar to this:
çääæ (don't know this will come out in 
email, but the contents of the anchor and its title attribute are 
Simplified Chinese)

However, this fails as on many computers it will appear as those 
horrible little blocks that indicate lack of the appropriate font

Next attempt was something like:

src="#"
alt="Most pages will display in English, only translated pages display
in Simplified Chinese. éæ
åïåæéééåçèæéèïäåæåèééæäçääææç" title="When 
selected, most pages will be in
readable in English with only translated pages displaying in Simplified
Chinese. éæ
åïåæéééåçèæéèïäåæåèééæäçääææç">

Except of course, that doesn't give any indication of language involved.
Suggestions, experiences, vague clues?
Cheers,
Lachlan
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--
Dejan Kozina
Dolina 346 (TS) - I-34018 Italy
tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 - cell.: +39 348 7355 225
http://www.kozina.com/  - e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in an English web site

[Juergen Auer]

Hi Lachlan,

try to save the html-file as UTF-8 and use the chinese letters
directly. And add



Your solution can't work if the page is saved as Ascii / 256 Bit.

On 12 Apr 2005 at 0:01, Lachlan Hardy wrote:

>  title="选择后，多数页面都可用英文阅读，但只有
> 已译页面才以简体中文显示">简体中文 (don't know this will 
> come out in
> email, but the contents of the anchor and its title attribute are
> Simplified Chinese)

Best Regards
Juergen Auer
http://www.sql-und-xml.de/
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Re: [WSG] CSS issues: Opera's absolute positioning

[Ingo Chao]

Patrick Lauke schrieb:
I'm pretty sure it's a bug in (Win) Opera's absolute
positioning implementation, but annoying nonetheless...
would anybody be able to suggest a simple fix to
get the "advanced search/preferences" list to align properly
next to the input on my "frugal google" experiment
http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/74/ ?
the a.p. ul#options should be offset relatively to its containing block, 
which should be the r. p. fieldset#mainform in this case.

Opera versions prior to 8beta3 seem to ignore this and offset the ul 
relatively to body.

I don't know an easy fix, but
position:relative
on the nearest available block

looks better in Opera7.54 + 8beta1 here.
maybe a start to look at.
Ingo

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Re: [WSG] CSS issues: Opera's absolute positioning

[Ingo Chao]

Patrick Lauke schrieb:
Kornel Lesinski

The funny thing is, that in my Opera 8b3/win your XHTML
is pixel-perfect with original Firefox startpage,

Interesting. In my copy of Opera 8 (can't remember which beta, but it's
build 7401) I have the "Advanced Search / Preferences" to the right of
the actual FF logo, completely outside of the box.

but in Firefox 1.0+ (nightly 20050407) you can see
pretty nasty bug - submit button overlaps radio buttons.

Again, on my FF 1.0.1 and FF 1.1 at home, it only overlaps at
very, very small font sizes.
my FF1.0+ (nightly 20050323) shows the same problem Kornel reported, and 
I think the problem is in the browser default /res/form.css:

legend { ... float: none ! important; }
this would win over your rule
fieldset fieldset legend { float: left; }
but I may be wrong.
Ingo
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Re: [WSG] CSS issues: Opera's absolute positioning

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On 11 Apr 2005, at 10:28 pm, Patrick Lauke wrote:
but in Firefox 1.0+ (nightly 20050407) you can see
pretty nasty bug - submit button overlaps radio buttons.
Again, on my FF 1.0.1 and FF 1.1 at home, it only overlaps at
very, very small font sizes.
Could you email me screenshots off list, if it's not too much trouble?
I send you a screenshot.
Camino nightly builds does the same thing.
The problem stems form this in the default forms.css
legend {
  ...
  position: static ! important;
  float: none ! important;
}
Which kills your rule.
Oddly, the DOM Inspector gives me a computed value for display as 
'inline'. I had expected 'block'.

This is the OS X default forms.css for FF latest nightly. (But those 
setting go as far back as dec 2004).
Philippe
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : 
code | design | web projects : 
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : 

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[WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in an English web site

[Lachlan Hardy]

G'day folks!
A query for those with some experience in using multiple languages in
their sites:
In a site that is predominantly English, select pages have been
translated into both Simplified and Traditional Chinese. Each page
contains a link where users are able to indicate their preferred
language (hence receiving translated pages as appropriate). My issue is
how to show this this link appropriately
Originally I had something similar to this:
çääæ (don't know this will come out in 
email, but the contents of the anchor and its title attribute are 
Simplified Chinese)

However, this fails as on many computers it will appear as those 
horrible little blocks that indicate lack of the appropriate font

Next attempt was something like:

src="#"
alt="Most pages will display in English, only translated pages display
in Simplified Chinese. éæ
åïåæéééåçèæéèïäåæåèééæäçääææç" title="When 
selected, most pages will be in
readable in English with only translated pages displaying in Simplified
Chinese. éæ
åïåæéééåçèæéèïäåæåèééæäçääææç">

Except of course, that doesn't give any indication of language involved.
Suggestions, experiences, vague clues?
Cheers,
Lachlan
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RE: [WSG] CSS issues: Opera's absolute positioning

[Patrick Lauke]

> Kornel Lesinski

> The funny thing is, that in my Opera 8b3/win your XHTML
> is pixel-perfect with original Firefox startpage,

Interesting. In my copy of Opera 8 (can't remember which beta, but it's
build 7401) I have the "Advanced Search / Preferences" to the right of
the actual FF logo, completely outside of the box.

> but in Firefox 1.0+ (nightly 20050407) you can see
> pretty nasty bug - submit button overlaps radio buttons.

Again, on my FF 1.0.1 and FF 1.1 at home, it only overlaps at
very, very small font sizes.

Could you email me screenshots off list, if it's not too much trouble?

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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Re: [WSG] CSS issues: Opera's absolute positioning

[Kornel Lesinski]

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 13:53:14 +0100, Patrick Lauke
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's a bug in (Win) Opera's absolute
positioning implementation, but annoying nonetheless...
would anybody be able to suggest a simple fix to
get the "advanced search/preferences" list to align properly
next to the input on my "frugal google" experiment
http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/74/ ?
Any help or general pointers on how to get Opera to behave
as it should would be muchly appreciated.
The funny thing is, that in my Opera 8b3/win your XHTML
is pixel-perfect with original Firefox startpage,
but in Firefox 1.0+ (nightly 20050407) you can see
pretty nasty bug - submit button overlaps radio buttons.
--
regards, Kornel Lesiński
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Re: [WSG] Handheld CSS example

[Neerav]

http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=HandheldStylesheets
http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg05976.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg08279.html
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/pocket/
http://my.opera.com/community/dev/device/css-media/
That'll keep you busy :-)
--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services.
Recent projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ...
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
Mark Gillingham wrote:
I have a site with a horizontal list-based menu before and a vertical 
list-based menu after the main content. CSS is used to place the second 
list in a left navbar. For my handheld, I have just let the content flow 
as is. Can I do better? For instance, can I make the first list look 
horizontal on most handhelds?

If you know of best-practice handheld CSS examples, please point me to 
them. Thanks.
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[WSG] CSS issues: Opera's absolute positioning

[Patrick Lauke]

I'm pretty sure it's a bug in (Win) Opera's absolute
positioning implementation, but annoying nonetheless...
would anybody be able to suggest a simple fix to
get the "advanced search/preferences" list to align properly
next to the input on my "frugal google" experiment
http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/74/ ?

Any help or general pointers on how to get Opera to behave
as it should would be muchly appreciated.

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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[WSG] Handheld CSS example

[Mark Gillingham]

I have a site with a horizontal list-based menu before and a vertical 
list-based menu after the main content. CSS is used to place the second 
list in a left navbar. For my handheld, I have just let the content flow 
as is. Can I do better? For instance, can I make the first list look 
horizontal on most handhelds?

If you know of best-practice handheld CSS examples, please point me to 
them. Thanks.
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Re: [WSG] The mail problem

[Simon Jessey]

I'd feel much better having 
Russ in charge of a nuclear arsenal than George W. Bush, but 
that's just me. Thank you for taking the appropriate measures.
 
Simon Jessey


Business Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Personal Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Business Site:  http://keystonewebsites.com/
Personal Site:  http://jessey.net/
 
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  russ - 
  maxdesign 
  To: Web Standards Group And 
  in case you are wondering who suggested shutting down the whole 
  mailserver... You guessed it, that was me. Just don't let me near any 
  nuclearweapons!

Re: [WSG] The mail problem

[russ - maxdesign]

Can I just add here that Scott Parsons is definitely not the person who's
email address was the problem - although his email post hit the list in
spectacular fashion it was not his fault in any way.

And in case you are wondering who suggested shutting down the whole mail
server... You guessed it, that was me. Just don't let me near any nuclear
weapons!

Again, thanks everyone for your patience.
Russ



> I've spoken to the person who's email address was the problem and I am not
> holding the person responsible for the issues.

> I guess these things happen from time to time. In case of a similar problem in
> the future I'll alert a few other people on how to suspend the list without
> shutting down the whole mail server.

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[WSG] [THREAD CLOSED] Last call for Bill Bryson's "Down under" bookray

[Neerav]

apologies, obviously the wrong mailing list
slinks away..
Lea de Groot wrote:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:45:40 +1000, Neerav wrote:
Im about to release Bill Bryson's book "Down Under" to Kirst040 at 
tomorrow's Sydney meetup, if anyone wants to be added to the ray 
before it leaves please email/PM me

Ummm... if you were to say that in English, how would it sound?
;)
Lea
~ looking for a permanent position in Brisbane.  Got anything?
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Re: [WSG] Last call for Bill Bryson's "Down under" bookray

[Lea de Groot]

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:45:40 +1000, Neerav wrote:
> Im about to release Bill Bryson's book "Down Under" to Kirst040 at 
> tomorrow's Sydney meetup, if anyone wants to be added to the ray 
> before it leaves please email/PM me

Ummm... if you were to say that in English, how would it sound?
;)

Lea
~ looking for a permanent position in Brisbane.  Got anything?
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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[WSG] Last call for Bill Bryson's "Down under" bookray

[Neerav]

Im about to release Bill Bryson's book "Down Under" to Kirst040 at 
tomorrow's Sydney meetup, if anyone wants to be added to the ray before 
it leaves please email/PM me

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bhatt.id.au/photos/
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
---Original Message---
From: Neerav
Date: 03/14/05 19:48:09
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [BCAUS] New bookray - Bill Bryson's "Down Under"
 

 

I just finished reading Bill Bryson's "Down Under"
http://www.bookcrossing.com/journal/2469695/ a travel book about his
journey around Australia before the 2000 Olympics
 

Anyone interested in it can join the bookray, note that anyone who
joins it and attends Sydney bookcrossing gets to be first on the list  :-) 

 

The following is an excerpt from my journal entry:
 

One point off the rating for going on too much about how poisonous
everything in Australia is but otherwise very funny eg: from page 120  :-) 

 

"... John Howard is by far the dullest man in Australia. Imagine a
very committed funeral home director - someone whose burning ambition
from the age of eleven was to be a funeral home director, whose
proudest achievement in adulthood was to be elected president of the
Queanbeyan and District Funeral Home Directors association - then
halve his personality and halve it again, and you have pretty well got
John Howard ..."
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Re: [WSG] A few positioning problems

[Stuart Homfray]

Hi Seona,
Seona Bellamy wrote:
Hi guys,
1/ The navigation buttons are currently text links sitting on top of
backgrounds. I'm having trouble getting them to centre nicely though. If
someone could have a look and give me some ideas of how I can make
everything line up nicely, it would be greatly appreciated.
The best case here (IMHO!) would be to replace the text with images 
(check out ). If 
you simply try and position the plain text, it will wreck the layout if 
the visitor decides to resize their text.


2/ There's supposed to be a gap at the bottom of the page, allowing some of
the background to show through under the white panel. It works fine in IE,
but not in Mozilla (both on PC) which wasn't the result I was expecting...
If you remove 'height:100%' from your html/body rule, and add 
'overflow:auto;' to your '#Container' rule, that should help. It looks 
like the internal containers were not fully contained by the 
'#Container' container (!! ;) )

cheers,
Stuart
ps. glad to see the mailing list's up and running again!!
--
===
El Bombin
http://elbombin.stuarthomfray.co.uk
Stuart Homfray
http://www.stuarthomfray.co.uk
===
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Re: [WSG] Taming Your Multiple IE Standalones

[Jan Brasna]

Multiple versions of Explorer for Windows on a single computer have 
revolutionized CSS bug testing for websites, but sadly the different IE 
browser windows appear identical to the eye, potentially leading to 
confusion and testing mistakes.
Agree. One of the problems I noticed is the style stripping via 
different kinds of import or media. Also some JS misbehaves there AFAIK.

--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Validation of CSS

[Jan Brasna]

CSS doesn't have strict separation of versions. The validator should 
check only "well-formness" of it.
That's certainly not what the W3 validator does.
As I wrote... It *should*. However the current version doesn't do it and 
validates it against CSS 2.1 (AFAIK)

--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Validation of CSS

[John Horner]

CSS doesn't have strict separation of versions. The validator should 
check only "well-formness" of it.
That's certainly not what the W3 validator does.
The example which prompted this is "display:inline-block". If I 
validate a file with that in it, I get this:

Errors
* Line: 8 Context : .myclass
Invalid number : display inline-block is not a display value : inline-block
If I know how, I can
1) go back to the validator page
2) choose advanced options
3) choose CSS Version 3 from the TEN different options available
and it will tell me it's valid.
Note that one of the ten options is "No special profile" and that too 
tells me it's an error...

What prompted this question was me trying to spread that message that 
you should validate your code to a skeptic. I don't think I convinced 
them by telling them they should follow that set of steps...

   "Have You Validated Your Code?"
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/

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