Re: [WSG] Submit a form with text links

[John Horner]

I'm going to chime in with "why do you want to do this?" too, I'm afraid.

Users don't expect a text link to submit a form, so doing this makes 
your form less usable, more confusing, IMHO.


   "Have You Validated Your Code?"
John Horner(+612 / 02) 8333 3488
Developer, ABC Kids Onlinehttp://www.abc.net.au/

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RE: [WSG] Submit a form with text links

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

> -Original Message-
> From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Wednesday, 1 June 2005 4:35 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Submit a form with text links
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Prabhath Sirisena [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > Sent: Wednesday, 1 June 2005 4:13 PM
> > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> > Subject: Re: [WSG] Submit a form with text links
> > 
> > Styling form elements is a frustrating and, often, futile effort.
> > 
> > I think sticking to the submit buttons is the best way to go.
> 
> Yeah, I would love to stick to the form buttons, but it just 
> won't look
> good. 

Hmmm... What do you think about this one: I use javascript to display text
links that use javascript to submit the form and  to display Form
buttons.

Something like this:


document.write("Click Here");






Does anybody see any problems with this solution? Fair enough, users without
Javascript will see lots of form buttons, but at least the functionality is
there and most users will have Javascript enabled.


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RE: [WSG] Submit a form with text links

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

> -Original Message-
> From: Prabhath Sirisena [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Wednesday, 1 June 2005 4:13 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Submit a form with text links
> 
> Styling form elements is a frustrating and, often, futile effort.
> 
> I think sticking to the submit buttons is the best way to go.

Yeah, I would love to stick to the form buttons, but it just won't look
good. I'll give you an example of what I want to do:

Have a look at this page of Seek:
http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/index.ascx?DateRange=31&catlocation=1002&st
ateselected=true&catindustry=1200

On this page you can select the checkboxes next to the jobs. When you click
on "Next Page" at the bottom of the search results (or on any of the page
numbers), you don't lose any of the items you selected. Of course Seek solve
this by using Javascript, which is just not good enough. 

I want to create the same functionality, but without requiring javascript.

Making all the Page Numbers form buttons doesn't really look good, if you
know what I mean. Would be great to get around it.


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Re: [WSG] Submit a form with text links

[Prabhath Sirisena]

Styling form elements is a frustrating and, often, futile effort.
Roger Johansson has a nice article with explanations [1]

I think sticking to the submit buttons is the best way to go.

Prabhath
http://nidahas.com

[1] 
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200410/styling_even_more_form_controls/


On 6/1/05, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here's one I have been working on for a while:
> 
> I have got a couple of text-links that I want to use to submit a form. The
> deal: it has to be accessible (has to work with JavaScript disabled).
> 
> The closest I have come to a solution is to style input buttons with css so
> they look similar to text links, but it won't work in all browsers. Opera
> decides to add a shadow, even with background-color and border turned off.
> IE adds a bit of spacing left and right, even with padding and margin turned
> off.
> 
> Has anybody else found a better solution to this?
> 
> Thanks for the feedback!
> 
> Andreas.
> 
> 
> 
> Andreas Boehmer
> User Experience Consultant
> 
> Phone: (03) 9386 8907
> Mobile: (0411) 097 038
> http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au
> Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development
> 
> 
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>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> 
>
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[WSG] Submit a form with text links

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

Here's one I have been working on for a while: 

I have got a couple of text-links that I want to use to submit a form. The
deal: it has to be accessible (has to work with JavaScript disabled). 

The closest I have come to a solution is to style input buttons with css so
they look similar to text links, but it won't work in all browsers. Opera
decides to add a shadow, even with background-color and border turned off.
IE adds a bit of spacing left and right, even with padding and margin turned
off.

Has anybody else found a better solution to this?

Thanks for the feedback!

Andreas.



Andreas Boehmer
User Experience Consultant

Phone: (03) 9386 8907
Mobile: (0411) 097 038
http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au
Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development 


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[WSG] positioning problem in CSS nav roll-over

[Cameron Muir]

Hello,

I'm trying to make CSS-based roll-over images for navigation, but I get 
a 1px difference between Firefox and IE. Because of the nature of the 
graphic - a horizontal line - it is quite noticeable.


example here:
http://quagma.net/testing/lakeside/contact.html

(at the moment the #panels {margin: -86px etc...} controls the height. 
see style sheet for more info)


Anyone have any suggestions?

Regards,
Cameron.

The HTML:

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd";>
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"; xml:lang="en-AU">

Lakeside Motor Inn - Contact

 
 
 





   

   
   contact
   rooms
   title="facilities">facilities

   tariffs
   title="restaurant">restaurant
   title="attractions">attractions

   


   Contact Us
   tjrlkg lkg









the css:


img {
   border: 0;
}
#header p {
   margin: 0;
   padding: 0;
}


a:link {
   color: #0066CC;
   text-decoration: none;
   font-weight: bold;
}

a:hover {
   color: #CC3366;
   font-weight: bold;
   text-decoration: none;
}
a:visited {
   font-weight: bold;
   color: #CC99CC;
   text-decoration: none;
}   
a:active {

   font-weight: bold;
   color: #FF3366;
   text-decoration: none;
}

/* thanks to A List Apart */
#panels {
width: 500px;
height: 65px;
background: url(images/nav_off.png);
margin: -86px 2px 10px 137px;
padding: 0;
position: relative;
text-indent: -9000px;
}
#panels li {margin: 0; padding: 0; list-style: none; position: absolute; 
top: 0;}


#panels li, #panels a {text-decoration: none; height: 65px; display: block;}
#panel1b {left: 0; width: 83px;}
#panel2b {left: 83px; width: 84px;}
#panel3b {left: 167px; width: 84px;}
#panel4b {left: 251px; width: 83px;}
#panel5b {left: 334px; width: 84px;}
#panel6b {left: 418px; width: 83px;}


#panel1b a:hover {background: transparent url(images/nav_on.png) 0 
no-repeat;}
#panel2b a:hover {background: transparent url(images/nav_on.png) -83px 
no-repeat;}
#panel3b a:hover {background: transparent url(images/nav_on.png) -167px 
no-repeat;}
#panel4b a:hover {background: transparent url(images/nav_on.png) -251px 
no-repeat;}
#panel5b a:hover {background: transparent url(images/nav_on.png) -334px 
no-repeat;}
#panel6b a:hover {background: transparent url(images/nav_on.png) -418px 
no-repeat;}



#container {
   width: 639px;
   background: ;
   margin: auto;
}
#maincontent {
   padding: 0 0 0 12px;
}

#contacthead {
   background: url(images/contact_head.png) no-repeat;
   padding: 1em 0 0 0;
   text-indent: -9000px;
}

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Re: [WSG] Two questions: SEO document structure and font resizing

[David Laakso]

On Tue, 31 May 2005 20:58:49 -0400, Conversant Studios  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hey there guys,
I'll get straight to it - here's the site I'm referring to -
http://www.travelinsurancecompared.com.au/

...

2. Font resizing
The navigation on the site is pretty locked in and I had to use absolute
font sizes (px) rather than relative which I normally use. However, the
fonts still resize in mozilla browsers and some others.
I know this is a heretical question - but how do I stop it?

Add this at the very top of your style sheet:
body, html {display: none!important;}

Look forward to your learned responses,
Benvolio

Regards,
David Laakso
--
http://www.dlaakso.com/

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Re: [WSG] inline-block support?

[Jan Brasna]

Not really - remember that 'inline-block' remains an *inline* element, 


Sure, sorry for not mentioning it.


inline-block is not supported at all by IE 5.0 Win


And Gecko AFAIK.

BTW CSS3 has quite interesting display: ... capabilities.

--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] inline-block support?

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On 1 Jun 2005, at 10:46 am, Jan Brasna wrote:


what specific, real-world problem could be solved by the use of
display:inline-block?


Anything where display: block + float: left is used at once (eg. 
navigation, definition list layouts etc


Not really - remember that 'inline-block' remains an *inline* element, 
and behaves as such in the whole block formatting context.

From the specs
[quote]
This value causes an element to generate a block box, which itself is 
flowed as a single inline box, similar to a replaced element. The 
inside of an inline-block is formatted as a block box, and the element 
itself is formatted as an inline replaced element.

[/quote]


But yes it can be useful for cases like everybody's favourite 
horizontal navigation list. I used it often specifically for IE Mac in 
those cases.


(and note: inline-block is not supported at all by IE 5.0 Win, if one 
need to support that browser)


Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh


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Re: [WSG] Two questions: SEO document structure and font resizing

[Prabhath Sirisena]

As long as you keep everything lean and semantic, the content order
won't have a significant affect on Google indexing. However, the
closer the main page header is to the body tag, the more important it
is perceived by search engines, and more likely that the page will
come up in searches. Since you'll be having this (probably) h2 in the
main content area, having it at the top does help.

It is always best to keep the content first for a host of other
reasons as well, accessibility being the most important.

Prabhath
http://nidahas.com
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Re: [WSG] information architecture

[Donna Maurer]

There is a relationship between the two in that a good IA will think 
beyond the page to the overall structure of the information, including 
the semantics of the content and relationships between content items. 
Good IAs care deeply about web standards and love the flexibility that 
designing with web standards allows ;)


Bruce (and others) - let me know privately if you want to know something 
more specific about IA.


Donna

Patrick Lauke wrote:


IA is a completely separate discipline, which - to be honest -
has nothing to do with web standards (so don't be surprised if
this thread gets closed fairly quickly). To over-simplify: IA looks
at how to structure and organise your data/information; even more
boiled down: what's your site's navigation like, what bits should
you have on your pages, etc. IA crosses over and intertwines with
usability.

 




--
Donna Maurer
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
blog: http://maadmob.net/donna/blog/
AIM: maadmob



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Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[Thierry Koblentz]

Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:
> For Safari (using 1.3), with images disabled, I get a grey outline
> where the image should be, and **sometimes** the alt text displayed.
> Like: if it fixes inside the bounding box for the image. If the text
> is too long, (ie a long long alt text) on a 20px by 20px image, the
> alt text is not displayed.
> Not Good.

Thanks for the info

Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [WSG] inline-block support?

[Jan Brasna]

what specific, real-world problem could be solved by the use of
display:inline-block?


Anything where display: block + float: left is used at once (eg. 
navigation, definition list layouts etc.)


--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On 1 Jun 2005, at 12:32 am, Thierry Koblentz wrote:


If I disable images in FF and Safari I do not get anything. Do you?


The answer for Firefox was already given.
For Safari (using 1.3), with images disabled, I get a grey outline 
where the image should be, and **sometimes** the alt text displayed. 
Like: if it fixes inside the bounding box for the image. If the text is 
too long, (ie a long long alt text) on a 20px by 20px image, the alt 
text is not displayed.

Not Good.

When the alt text is displayed, it takes size and font-style from the 
context.


Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh


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Re: [WSG] inline-block support?

[Kay Smoljak]

On 5/31/05, kemie guaida <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  I was sure that there was some major browser not implementing
> display:inline-block, but in a quick test firefox 1.03, Opera 7 &8 and even
> IE 6 are interpreting it correctly.I have yet to test on a mac, but that
> would seem to cover a lot of users.  Anything I'm missing? Any recent
> documentation on browser support?

I've never really thought about it before, but now I'm intrigued...
what specific, real-world problem could be solved by the use of
display:inline-block?

Thanks,
K.

-- 
Kay Smoljak
http://kay.smoljak.com/
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Re: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS

[Matt Thommes]

> Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that have inline CSS.
> (Over 300 docs)

Good Lord, what was that previous author thinking!??

There's no escaping this problem - you're just gonna have to start
from scratch. Don't waste your time with "export/import" methods.


MATTHOM
matthom.com/


On 5/31/05, Jacobus van Niekerk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that have inline CSS.
> (Over 300 docs) I am looking for some software, or way, that will export
> this inline css into a external css file. Or even just move it into a
> embedded style sheet.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help.
> 
> Kind Regards
> Jacobus van Niekerk
> 
> Creative Consultant
> 
> 
> web: http://www.catics.com/  |  http://www.freelancecontractors.com
> tel: + 27 21 982 7805
> 
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Re: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS

[Bert Doorn]

G'day


Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that
 have inline CSS. (Over 300 docs) I am looking for some
 software, or way, that will export this inline css into a
 external css file. Or even just move it into a embedded style sheet.


Replacing the styles (whether style blocks in the head of the 
documents or inline as attributes) will be difficult.


Removing them should be simple could be done with Macromedia 
Dreamweaver.  It can go through a whole site, find all elements 
with a style attribute, and remove the attribute.


If each doc has a style element in the head section, you could 
use the same method to replace it to use an imported style sheet.


Biggest question is: how consistent is the site's layout?  Will 
it work with an overall style sheet or two?


Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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Re: [WSG] Two questions: SEO document structure and font resizing

[Neerav]

You cant stop font resizing in mozilla, and thank goodness for that :-)

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au

Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services.
Recent projects for iFocus, Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis

http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav

Conversant Studios wrote:

Hey there guys,

I'll get straight to it - here's the site I'm referring to - 
http://www.travelinsurancecompared.com.au/


2. Font resizing

The navigation on the site is pretty locked in and I had to use absolute 
font sizes (px) rather than relative which I normally use. However, the 
fonts still resize in mozilla browsers and some others.


I know this is a heretical question - but how do I stop it?

Look forward to your learned responses,
Benvolio

--
Ben Webster
Conversant Studios
www.conversantstudios.com.au

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Re: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS

[Ben]

If the HTML files were valid XHTML it would be a relatively easy job extracting the styles using XSLT.On 6/1/05, Patrick H. Lauke <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Scott Swabey (Lafinboy Productions) wrote:
> Am not aware on any package that would do this for you, but it should be> quite easy to set up a Regular _expression_ routine to strip all style='foo'> content from a page.The harder part would be to have it not just strip out the styles, but
externalise them while keeping them working in the final output. Thebrute force approach would be to just assign a unique, random ID to eachelement where a style attribute is found, then create a matching,
specific entry in the new external CSS. The - hypothetical - right waywould be for a parser to analyse the entire document structure, work outhow styles can be applied generically (all paragraphs inside this div
have a certain style, so create a rule for div#blah p rather thanindividual style rules), and still find the odd few "special" cases andassign a class.Sounds like AI to me...even if you can find a halfway automated system,
I doubt that the final result would be any more satisfactory than justleaving the style attributes in the markup, I'm afraid...--Patrick H. Lauke_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com**The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
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RE: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS

[John Horner]

 > Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that

 have inline CSS. (Over 300 docs) I am looking for some
 software, or way, that will export this inline css into a
 external css file. Or even just move it into a embedded style sheet.


Am not aware on any package that would do this for you, but it should be
quite easy to set up a Regular Expression routine to strip all style='foo'
content from a page.


I think the question related to 

[WSG] Two questions: SEO document structure and font resizing

[Conversant Studios]

Hey there guys,

I'll get straight to it - here's the site I'm referring to - http://www.travelinsurancecompared.com.au/

1.  Search engine optimisation and document structure

The current document structure is:

header
nav
content
sidebar
footer

will it get more love from google if I make the content container appear first in the source code? So it would be:

content
sidebar
header 
nav
footer

---

2. Font resizing

The navigation on the site is pretty locked in and I had to use
absolute font sizes (px) rather than relative which I normally use.
However, the fonts still resize in mozilla browsers and some others.

I know this is a heretical question - but how do I stop it?

Look forward to your learned responses,Benvolio --Ben WebsterConversant Studioswww.conversantstudios.com.au

Re: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Scott Swabey (Lafinboy Productions) wrote:


Am not aware on any package that would do this for you, but it should be
quite easy to set up a Regular Expression routine to strip all style='foo'
content from a page.


The harder part would be to have it not just strip out the styles, but 
externalise them while keeping them working in the final output. The 
brute force approach would be to just assign a unique, random ID to each 
element where a style attribute is found, then create a matching, 
specific entry in the new external CSS. The - hypothetical - right way 
would be for a parser to analyse the entire document structure, work out 
how styles can be applied generically (all paragraphs inside this div 
have a certain style, so create a rule for div#blah p rather than 
individual style rules), and still find the odd few "special" cases and 
assign a class.


Sounds like AI to me...even if you can find a halfway automated system, 
I doubt that the final result would be any more satisfactory than just 
leaving the style attributes in the markup, I'm afraid...


--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com

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RE: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS

[Scott Swabey \(Lafinboy Productions\)]

> Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that 
> have inline CSS. (Over 300 docs) I am looking for some 
> software, or way, that will export this inline css into a 
> external css file. Or even just move it into a embedded style sheet.

Am not aware on any package that would do this for you, but it should be
quite easy to set up a Regular Expression routine to strip all style='foo'
content from a page.

Regards 


Scott Swabey
General Manager

Lafinboy Productions
:: website design :: website development :: graphic design

e  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t   +61 (0)415 193 126
w  www.lafinboy.com

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Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Ben]

Ahh, cool. Looks like the white-space property is supported well enough.

http://www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/browser_support/element_type.html

I'll go back to using  for code blocks then. :)

Thanks for pointing out the property, Martin.

BenOn 5/31/05, Martin J. Lambert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: Ben>> After some testing, I think it's best to stick to using  for> blocks of code.  won't preserve whitespace, so your code's> not going to have any indenting unless you use a lot of non-breaking
> spaces which will inflate the size of your file and not to mention> a real be a pain in the butt to add.How about using the  element (since it IS code), and usingthe following styles:
code {display: block;white-space: pre;}In my very quick test just now it seems to work in Firefox and IE,so I'd assume it works pretty much anywhere. This gets you the best
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Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Lachlan Hardy]

Vaska.WSG wrote:
I've been reading around (via Google) and I find others with similar 
problems but no solution.  Is there a solution to this?


Whenever I present code in a page, I use something similar to the method 
Simon Willison put forward by in July 2002: 
http://development.incutio.com/simon/numbered-code-experiment.html


Works for me. I've yet to find a better method (although if someone has 
one...)


Cheers
Lachlan
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Re: [WSG] A way to skip a Flash-intro if Flash is not installed?

[John Horner]

Somewhat belatedly -- the Flash-detection JavaScript I recommend is 
the "Moock FPI" script, see 
http://www.moock.org/webdesign/flash/detection/moockfpi/ a lot of 
work has gone into it and it has a very detailed bug-fix history, 
which gives me confidence, although it doesn't seem to have been 
updated in a year or so.


   "Have You Validated Your Code?"
John Horner(+612 / 02) 8333 3488
Developer, ABC Kids Onlinehttp://www.abc.net.au/

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Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[Thierry Koblentz]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
> Ok, the IR technique I was referring to (now that I've checked) was
> the Gilder/Levin method
> http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/#gilderlevin

Believe it or not, but I didn't know about that one ;-)
Identical approach in term of CSS, but - as you know - very different
regarding markup.

> which uses a span, and my point was: if you're using CSS to scale and
> apply background to what is essentially an empty/transparent image (a
> 1x1 transparent gif or whatever), then why use an image at all and not

How do you make the background image of this "neutral element" scale?

> settle for a completely empty, neutral element like a SPAN (as happens
> in the Gilder/Levin technique)? Either way, you're adding extra markup
> to your HTML, so you may as well use something empty.

The Gilder/Levin method relies only on CSS to display the image, if there is
a need to show both elements in the heading the solution fails if the
document is unstyled.
Also, an empty span is nothing more than an empty span. I believe an image
with meaningful title and alt attributes may be of better use.

Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Thierry Koblentz wrote:

Patrick Lauke wrote:




and use CSS background image for the "real" image, but then you may as
well use any other element (such as a SPAN in...whatever IR technique
I'm thinking of).



BTW, what would be the advantage of using a span rather than an img element?
And then using CSS declarations that may have SEO implications or, worst,
create accessibility/usability issues?


Ok, the IR technique I was referring to (now that I've checked) was the 
Gilder/Levin method 
http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/#gilderlevin 
which uses a span, and my point was: if you're using CSS to scale and 
apply background to what is essentially an empty/transparent image (a 
1x1 transparent gif or whatever), then why use an image at all and not 
settle for a completely empty, neutral element like a SPAN (as happens 
in the Gilder/Levin technique)? Either way, you're adding extra markup 
to your HTML, so you may as well use something empty.


--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com

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Re: [WSG] Help Me Switch From Tables to CSS Divs

[Parker Torrence]

See if this is what you are looking for
http://www.neuroticweb.com/recursos/2-columns-layout/



On 5/31/05, Olajide Olaolorun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know so many people have asked for this and at one point i left the emails
> on the topic in my inbox but then i deleted them. I need to know how to
> switch from tables to divs. I have a 2 column table and want to switch it
> into css using divs. I know it has to do with the float tag in css but i
> tired and didn't get it to work. 
>  
>  Please help.
>  
>  Thanks
> 
> -- 
> Best Regards, 
> Olajide Olaolorun @ www.olajideolaolorun.com
> "...ain't nothing impossible unless you make it..." 


-- 
Parker Torrence

Unfolded WebDesign
http://webdesign.parkertorrence.com
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Re: [WSG] Help Me Switch From Tables to CSS Divs

[Chris Kennon]

Hi,

deconstruct and redo:


http://www.456bereastreet.com/lab/developing_with_web_standards/ 
csslayout/2-col/



G/L
C


On May 31, 2005, at 12:11 PM, Olajide Olaolorun wrote:

I know so many people have asked for this and at one point i left  
the emails on the topic in my inbox but then i deleted them. I need  
to know how to switch from tables to divs. I have a 2 column table  
and want to switch it into css using divs. I know it has to do with  
the float tag in css but i tired and didn't get it to work.


Please help.

Thanks

--
Best Regards,
Olajide Olaolorun @ www.olajideolaolorun.com
"...ain't nothing impossible unless you make it..."


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[WSG] Help Me Switch From Tables to CSS Divs

[Olajide Olaolorun]

I know so many people have asked for this and at one point i left the
emails on the topic in my inbox but then i deleted them. I need to know
how to switch from tables to divs. I have a 2 column table and want to
switch it into css using divs. I know it has to do with the float tag
in css but i tired and didn't get it to work. 

Please help.

Thanks-- Best Regards, Olajide Olaolorun @ www.olajideolaolorun.com"...ain't nothing impossible unless you make it..."

Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[designer]

Hi Patrick,

- Original Message - 
From: "Patrick Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:43 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

But to reiterate:  has semantic connotations - the content it
marks up is a heading. , on the other hand, does not provide
any indication of what's inside, only how it's displayed.

--

Yes, absolutely. BUT what I'm harping on about here is that if you set your
basic font in the body (or somewhere up there :-) you could then use  in
the html without qualifying it in any way with CSS, so long as you are happy
with the way the browser displays it. (and it's not IE, of course!).  You
probably wouldn't do this, but it illustrates the point.

The   says 'this is a heading' no more, no less, and  the  says
'this is some preformatted text', no more, no less. Neither really tells you
'exactly' what it's going to look like. OK, you 'expect' the  stuff to
be larger (which it isn't always) and you 'expect' the  to appear in
Courier font with white space etc, but you personally haven't defined
either.  The 'formatting' is done elsewhere (in this case, by the browser's
interpretation, NOT in the html markup, nor indeed in the CSS in this
example.  So I can't see the difference.

OK, I'm not going to labour this or do it to death, but I can't grasp this.

:-)

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk




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Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[Thierry Koblentz]

pixeldiva wrote:
> Yes. I do. I get the alt text where it's been applied.

As Patrick pointed out, you must be using the built-in function of FF, but
it does not work that way in Safari (atleast in v.1.2.4).

>> Regarding MSIE, what I meant is that the alt attribute value does
>> not match the text-size in relation to the heading.
>
> Agreed. I wasn't remarking on MSIE at all.

We're talking about accessibility (at least I am), so I'd say that leaving
"some" UAs out of the discussion is kind of a problem ;-)

>> And I'm not even talking about people using their own styles sheet,
>> that could include:
>> img {display:none}
>> What do you think these people would get?
>
> That would depend which technology they use to browse.

I don't understand what you mean by "technology".
I'm talking about using a simple style sheet to set one's own preferences to
take over the author's styles. Most of the time, I'd say it is to hide
images, enlarge text-size, add contrast to the documents, etc.

Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] *DETECTED* Online User Violation

[ByteDreams]

Just got that same email.  Thanks to all on the list for alerting.  I
deleted without opening the file that was attached.

ByteDreams
- Original Message - 
From: "john" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 5:25 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] *DETECTED* Online User Violation


> I've been receiving a few messages like this, but from my
> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" so it looks like I'm emailing myself.  It always
> says "more info is attached" and there's always a zipped attachment
> included.
>
> ~john
> Just fair-weather words
> from a four-letter friend.
>
>
>
>
> on 5/31/2005 10:06 AM Rick Faaberg said the following:
> > On 5/31/05 1:47 AM "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > sent this out:
> >
> >> We regret to inform you that your account has been suspended due to the
> >> violation of our site policy, more info is attached.
> >
> > Detected what? What did I do so wrong?
> >
> > Man, I thought I was a good citizen here.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > **
> > The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> >
> >  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> > **
> >
> >
> **
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>
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Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Vaska . WSG]

I think this will do the trick.  It's a little odd, and I'll have to  
test this out more, doing a preg_match_all to determine how many \t's  
there are (so we know what class='tab$number' to use), but I think in  
most instances this will suffice.


Thanks for pointing this solution out...v


On May 31, 2005, at 4:41 PM, Ingo Chao wrote:


Vaska.WSG schrieb:

Actually, because I can't really find a way to get by on the  
word-wrap  issue and also the use of indents (as they appear in the  
code) I've  done all of this in php without code or pre.  It uses  
 's for the  tabs (preg_replace("/\t/"...).  ...

If you are curious this is what an output looks like ...
1 

Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[Thierry Koblentz]

Patrick Lauke wrote:
> Unless I'm mistaken, the WebDev extension does a fairly brutal
> "remove images
> from the DOM". A far more accurate test (if you don't want to change
> your
> global options) is to choose WebDev's Images > "Replace Images with
> Alt Attributes"
> option.
> Can't vouch for Safari, but if it doesn't behave the way FF does,
> it's going
> against the spec and against User Agent Accessibility Guidelines.

You're right I was not using FF Web Features, but the WebDev toolbar. So
it's true that people who would use the built-in feature would get the alt
attribute value.
But still! What about Safari and MSIE users?
All UAs have flaws. IMO, our business is to deal with them rather than using
the specs as an excuse for not implementing the most accessible solutions.

Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[pixeldiva]

On 5/31/05, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Who's talking about tooltip? :-)
> If I disable images in FF and Safari I do not get anything. Do you?

Yes. I do. I get the alt text where it's been applied.

> Regarding MSIE, what I meant is that the alt attribute value does not match
> the text-size in relation to the heading.

Agreed. I wasn't remarking on MSIE at all.

> And I'm not even talking about people using their own styles sheet, that
> could include:
> img {display:none}
> What do you think these people would get?

That would depend which technology they use to browse.
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RE: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[Patrick Lauke]

> Thierry Koblentz

> If I disable images in FF and Safari I do not get anything. Do you?

If you disable images in FF through something like the WebDev extension,
no. However, if you disable them the normal way (the way a user who doesn't
want/need images would) via Tools > Options > Web Features > Load Images,
the ALT is displayed as intended. The same goes for broken images. And yes,
in both cases the ALT is displayed in the correct text size.

Unless I'm mistaken, the WebDev extension does a fairly brutal "remove images
from the DOM". A far more accurate test (if you don't want to change your
global options) is to choose WebDev's Images > "Replace Images with Alt 
Attributes"
option.

Can't vouch for Safari, but if it doesn't behave the way FF does, it's going
against the spec and against User Agent Accessibility Guidelines.

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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[WSG] Exporting inline CSS

[Jacobus van Niekerk]

Hi all,

Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that have inline CSS.
(Over 300 docs) I am looking for some software, or way, that will export
this inline css into a external css file. Or even just move it into a
embedded style sheet.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Kind Regards
Jacobus van Niekerk

Creative Consultant


web: http://www.catics.com/  |  http://www.freelancecontractors.com
tel: + 27 21 982 7805

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Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[Thierry Koblentz]

pixeldiva wrote:
>> You mean even if images are disabled?
>> That's true with some browsers, but not all. I believe FF and Safari
>> do not show the alt attribute value at all when images are disabled.
>> And in MSIE, this value is not displayed in relation to the user's
>> settings regarding text-size.
>
> They do, they just don't show alt text pop up as a tooltip (because it
> was never meant to be implemented this way).

Who's talking about tooltip? :-)
If I disable images in FF and Safari I do not get anything. Do you?
Regarding MSIE, what I meant is that the alt attribute value does not match
the text-size in relation to the heading.
And I'm not even talking about people using their own styles sheet, that
could include:
img {display:none}
What do you think these people would get?

Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

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RE: [WSG] inline-block support?

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

This doesn't quite answer your question - but if you want to test on a MAC
and don't have one I found a resource yesterday...

http://danvine.com/icapture/

It's not as good as the others I suppose but it is free.

Heather

Original Message:
-
From: kemie guaida [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:42:01 +0200
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] inline-block support?


I was sure that there was some major browser not implementing 
display:inline-block, but in a quick test firefox 1.03, Opera 7 &8 and 
even IE 6 are interpreting it correctly.I have yet to test on a mac, but 
that would seem to cover a lot of users.  Anything I'm missing? Any 
recent documentation on browser support?

thanks

Kemie

...:| kemie |:...
.:| www.monolinea.com  |:.



>  
>



mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


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Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[pixeldiva]

On 5/31/05, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You mean even if images are disabled?
> That's true with some browsers, but not all. I believe FF and Safari do not
> show the alt attribute value at all when images are disabled. And in MSIE,
> this value is not displayed in relation to the user's settings regarding
> text-size.

They do, they just don't show alt text pop up as a tooltip (because it
was never meant to be implemented this way).
 
pix
http://www.pixeldiva.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[Thierry Koblentz]

Patrick Lauke wrote:
> Maybe I'm missing the point here, but...have we just come full circle?
> If you're already adding IMG to the markup, what's the point of doing
> Hello World
> and applying lots of CSS to hide the text, if a simple
> 
> will do?

You mean even if images are disabled?
That's true with some browsers, but not all. I believe FF and Safari do not
show the alt attribute value at all when images are disabled. And in MSIE,
this value is not displayed in relation to the user's settings regarding
text-size.

> Another idea behind the IR techniques is the flexibility of defining
> your images in the CSS, so that you can change them easily later by
> simply editing your stylesheet. Your technique hardcodes the images
> in, offering no such benefit (if the image's filename changes, you'll
> have
> to go back to all your HTML pages, rather than just editing your CSS).
> To make it flexible, you could use a dummy placeholder image in the
> HTML
> 
> and use CSS background image for the "real" image, but then you may as
> well use any other element (such as a SPAN in...whatever IR technique
> I'm thinking of).

You're too quick to criticize the method ;-)
Read the article and you'll see that's the way I do it already. The last
example, the one I've posted, is only to show the "scalable" part (that
would be rarely needed because of type face).
BTW, what would be the advantage of using a span rather than an img element?
And then using CSS declarations that may have SEO implications or, worst,
create accessibility/usability issues?

> Nice writeup, but this seems like 2 steps back, rather than a step
> forward, unless I'm missing something fundamental here...

I'm not saying it's fundamental, but I was after a fully accessible
solution.
;-)

 Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[Thierry Koblentz]

Jan Brasna wrote:
> Well, I don't fancy it much, I don't like the idea of presentational
> image in HTML... I personally use own solution[1], based partly on
> Dynatext[2]. Now I'm playing with Anatoly's DIR[3]
> 

If the user browses with images disabled and large text-size, the heading is
cut-off because of the overflow declaration.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this method (that I mention at the bottom
of the article as well as sIFR) is not one of the very best, I'm just saying
that it has atleast this issue regarding accessibility.

Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Ingo Chao]

Vaska.WSG schrieb:

Actually, because I can't really find a way to get by on the word-wrap  
issue and also the use of indents (as they appear in the code) I've  
done all of this in php without code or pre.  It uses  's for the  
tabs (preg_replace("/\t/"...).  
...

If you are curious this is what an output looks like ...

1 

Re: [WSG] style sheet set up

[Douglas Clifton]

Recently a CSS "compressor" utility has been making its rounds
on the del.icio.us/Furl bookmark sites (and the like). Removing
whitespace and comments from stylesheets, cramming them all into
one file, and similar naive approaches to improving a site's
response time are far less effective strategies than:

1. Selecting a high quality hosting company
2. Selecting the correct Web server software
3. Learning how to correctly configure your Web server
4. Making use of browser cache and expires headers
5. Using keep-alives and timeouts correctly
6. Using http compression
7. Using proxies

By following these guidelines, you can eliminate all arguments
about using multiple/modular CSS stylesheets. And in the process
improve your own productivity, which is another expense that is
so often overlooked.

Web hosting companies are in the business of making money, and
their business model is based on charging by bandwidth --
which is why they thrive on inefficiency, and why they don't
want you to know about mod_gzip or even charge you extra to
enable it.

If, after following these steps and your site still loads slowly
then the culprit is still mostly likely not multiple stylesheets,
with or without comments in them. The top reasons include:

1. An overloaded shared host
2. A host that is lacking in a key resource such as memory
3. A poorly designed or unmanaged database
4. Poorly designed software such as scripting

I have, from my own personal experience with sites that have
all of the above issues, actually increased by far the size
and number of CSS files that form the design of the site, and
yet decreased the load time of the site by many orders of
magnitude.

I simply do not understand this argument that large, complex
stylesheets are somehow to blame for sites that load slowly.
I could also reduce bandwidth by eliminating the DOCTYPE
declaration from the markup, and sending tag soup that doesn't
close element tags or use quotes around attribute values. The
browser doesn't care, right? And we all know the user doesn't
care how the page is built as long as it loads, and they can
find what they're looking for.

As far as the scant few users out there with version 4 browsers,
good luck with any major Web site these days. As far as dial-up
users go, you have my sympathies.

--
Douglas Clifton
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://loadaveragezero.com/
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RE: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Martin J. Lambert]

> From: Ben
> 
> After some testing, I think it's best to stick to using  for
> blocks of code.  won't preserve whitespace, so your code's
> not going to have any indenting unless you use a lot of non-breaking
> spaces which will inflate the size of your file and not to mention
> a real be a pain in the butt to add.


How about using the  element (since it IS code), and using
the following styles:

code {
display: block;
white-space: pre;
}

In my very quick test just now it seems to work in Firefox and IE,
so I'd assume it works pretty much anywhere. This gets you the best
of both worlds - the semantics of  and the presentation of
.


--
Martin Lambert
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [WSG] inline-block support?

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On 31 May 2005, at 10:42 pm, kemie guaida wrote:

I was sure that there was some major browser not implementing 
display:inline-block, but in a quick test firefox 1.03, Opera 7 &8 and 
even IE 6 are interpreting it correctly.I have yet to test on a mac, 
but that would seem to cover a lot of users.  Anything I'm missing? 
Any recent documentation on browser support?


Firefox (Gecko)  does **not** support display:inline-block [1][2].

IE win and IE Mac, Safari, Opera do support this more or less, with 
best support coming from Safari, followed by Opera and IE Mac. IE Win 
only supports it reasonably on elements 'whose natural display is 
inline' to quote from a MS document.


[1] sometimes display: -moz-inline-box is an alternative. Sometimes.
[2] bug 

Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh


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RE: [WSG] information architecture

[Chris Rizzo]

Hi Bruce,

I'd also add to what Patrick said and say that IA, usability, SEO,
accessibility, user interface design, etc. are components of an even
bigger picture called User Experience Design (the broadest map of Web
development). 

Here's another good article by Garrett that covers some of these areas
as defined by him:
http://semanticstudios.com/publications/semantics/29.php

I think it is important to understand how CSS/Accessability/Interface
design fits into the grand scheme of Web development.  That way you can
identify your own strengths and weaknesses as a web developer and reach
out where you feel you need to.

Chris R.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Lauke
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 9:35 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] information architecture

> Bruce Gilbert

> can someone give me a good explanation on what information
> acrhitecture is as it relates to web standards?

IA is a completely separate discipline, which - to be honest -
has nothing to do with web standards (so don't be surprised if
this thread gets closed fairly quickly). To over-simplify: IA looks
at how to structure and organise your data/information; even more
boiled down: what's your site's navigation like, what bits should
you have on your pages, etc. IA crosses over and intertwines with
usability.

A quick google brings up a useful collection by Jesse James Garrett
http://www.jjg.net/ia/

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[Jan Brasna]

Well, I don't fancy it much, I don't like the idea of presentational 
image in HTML... I personally use own solution[1], based partly on 
Dynatext[2]. Now I'm playing with Anatoly's DIR[3]


[1] Can be seen on  or 
[2] 
[3] 



--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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RE: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Patrick Lauke]

> Vaska.WSG

> I've  
> done all of this in php without code or pre.

CODE is still the semantically correct element to wrap around this
type of content, though...

> What I'm doing is meant purely for presentation...it's a fast 
> way for a  
> person to view a script and try to determine where a bug might live  
> (via the line number).

> 1  2 
> 3 function  
> rowNumber($i)

Presentational, indeed...why not something like (provided your
code always starts from line 1, as support for CSS driven
OL numbering other than the default seems a bit flaky, still)


 

RE: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[Patrick Lauke]

> Thierry Koblentz

> I think I may have found a new way to enhance the original idea:
> The demo (scalable image):
> http://www.TJKDesign.com/articles/tip_5.asp
> The article:
> http://www.TJKDesign.com/articles/tip.asp

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but...have we just come full circle?
If you're already adding IMG to the markup, what's the point of doing

Hello World

and applying lots of CSS to hide the text, if a simple



will do?

Another idea behind the IR techniques is the flexibility of defining
your images in the CSS, so that you can change them easily later by
simply editing your stylesheet. Your technique hardcodes the images in,
offering no such benefit (if the image's filename changes, you'll have
to go back to all your HTML pages, rather than just editing your CSS).
To make it flexible, you could use a dummy placeholder image in the HTML



and use CSS background image for the "real" image, but then you may as
well use any other element (such as a SPAN in...whatever IR technique
I'm thinking of).

Nice writeup, but this seems like 2 steps back, rather than a step forward,
unless I'm missing something fundamental here...

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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Re: [WSG] display: table-row

[russ - maxdesign]

Try these two:
http://nanobox.chipx86.com/browser_support.php
http://www.quirksmode.org/css/contents.html

Russ

> Can somebody please tell me where I can find a chart that shows what
> browsers, if any, don't support "display: table-row" ?
> 
> Thanks.


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Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Vaska . WSG]

Thanks for the discussion folks...

Actually, because I can't really find a way to get by on the word-wrap  
issue and also the use of indents (as they appear in the code) I've  
done all of this in php without code or pre.  It uses  's for the  
tabs (preg_replace("/\t/"...).  Aside from creating a few more regex  
rules to deal with inputting slashes and the like, it seems to work  
well enough.


What I'm doing is meant purely for presentation...it's a fast way for a  
person to view a script and try to determine where a bug might live  
(via the line number).


If you are curious this is what an output looks like (I'm not sure if  
the  's will encode when I send this email).  If there is time I  
might add some simple syntax highlighting rules to the script...


1 $i    
  ";
7 
 } elseif (($i >= 10) && ($i <= 999)) {
8 
 return  
"$i    
 ";
9 
 } else {
10 
return  
"$i    
";
11}/>

12}
13/>

14?>




On May 31, 2005, at 2:43 PM, Patrick Lauke wrote:


designer



Surely, the fact that  denotes 'preformatting' means that the
formatting has occurred 'somewhere else' and not in the body
of the html.
So, in that sense, in what way is   'presentational' any
more than all
CSS is 'presentational?


Aeh...I'm not quite following your reasoning here. But to pick up
just on the last bit: CSS is *meant* for presentation, while HTML
should only mark up *content*. That's where I see the problem:
 denotes how something looks, rather than what it is (which
is the whole idea of "semantic" markup).


To take a simple example, if I set
CSS rules in
defining   characteristics, is using that  tag in the
html 'purely
presentational' or is it different to ?


You'd use  only if the text you're marking up is an actual
heading (unless you use  to mark up "oh, i want that text nice
and big", in which case you're abusing  for presentational
purposes).

But to reiterate:  has semantic connotations - the content it
marks up is a heading. , on the other hand, does not provide
any indication of what's inside, only how it's displayed.



Sometimes,  strikes me just like a css declaration,
except that you
don't have to declare what the formatting is in the header :-)


And that's a bad thing; we want separation of content and presentation.

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] information architecture

[Patrick Lauke]

> Bruce Gilbert

> can someone give me a good explanation on what information
> acrhitecture is as it relates to web standards?

IA is a completely separate discipline, which - to be honest -
has nothing to do with web standards (so don't be surprised if
this thread gets closed fairly quickly). To over-simplify: IA looks
at how to structure and organise your data/information; even more
boiled down: what's your site's navigation like, what bits should
you have on your pages, etc. IA crosses over and intertwines with
usability.

A quick google brings up a useful collection by Jesse James Garrett
http://www.jjg.net/ia/

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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[WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?

[Thierry Koblentz]

Hi all,
I think I may have found a new way to enhance the original idea:
The demo (scalable image):
http://www.TJKDesign.com/articles/tip_5.asp
The article:
http://www.TJKDesign.com/articles/tip.asp

Please report any error you may find.
-- 
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com
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[WSG] inline-block support?

[kemie guaida]

I was sure that there was some major browser not implementing
display:inline-block, but in a quick test firefox 1.03, Opera 7 &8
and even IE 6 are interpreting it correctly.I have yet to test on a
mac, but that would seem to cover a lot of users.  Anything I'm
missing? Any recent documentation on browser support?

thanks

Kemie


...:| kemie |:...

.:| www.monolinea.com
|:.




  
  

[WSG] information architecture

[Bruce Gilbert]

can someone give me a good explanation on what information
acrhitecture is as it relates to web standards? I seen the word(s)
used a lot lately.

thanks,

-- 
::Bruce::
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[WSG] display: table-row

[john]

Can somebody please tell me where I can find a chart that shows what 
browsers, if any, don't support "display: table-row" ?


Thanks.

--
~john
Just fair-weather words
from a four-letter friend.


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RE: [WSG] VIRUS!!!

[Tim John]

Hi,
Luckily, I thought it a little strange to receive an email from WSG
informing me that I'd been removed from their mailing list. Especially as
the email was from [EMAIL PROTECTED] and contained a download -
which I ignored! I'm just wondering, as I use MailWasher Pro, I could
bounce said email but would not then receive any pottentially legit emails
from [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any ideas?
-- 
There are two ways to write error-free programs. Only the third one works.
--
http://www.sabif.info/


> Well, that was fun! I foolishly trusted that the email was from the
> group ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and that I had for some reason been
> suspended. So I opened the attachment and clicked the file! How foolish of
> me! If only I had expanded the width of the filename column. It even had a
> program like icon. I suppose it was kinda intelligent of them to include
> so
> many trailing spaces before the file extension so I'm semi impressed as I
> haven't been caught like that before.
> It automatically shuts down task manager when you try to open it too so it
> was real battle to try and end the process in the 1 second you have before
> it closes.
>
> It appears it was sent through the wsg mail server so maybe you guys
> should
> check if it is still in the queue somewhere? Assuming this wasn't only
> sent
> to me.
>
> Oh great, it also adds entries to your host file, shuts down Norton and
> turns off your firewall. Ohhh the pain!
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jan Brasna
> Sent: Tuesday, 31 May 2005 1:57 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Definition lists for comments in blogs
>
>> Foobar IS F.U.B.A.R.
>
> It isn't, it's only derived from it. See 
>
> --
> Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
> **
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>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> **
>
>
>
> **
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>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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>
>
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RE: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Patrick Lauke]

> designer

> Surely, the fact that  denotes 'preformatting' means that the
> formatting has occurred 'somewhere else' and not in the body 
> of the html.
> So, in that sense, in what way is   'presentational' any 
> more than all
> CSS is 'presentational?

Aeh...I'm not quite following your reasoning here. But to pick up
just on the last bit: CSS is *meant* for presentation, while HTML
should only mark up *content*. That's where I see the problem:
 denotes how something looks, rather than what it is (which
is the whole idea of "semantic" markup).

> To take a simple example, if I set 
> CSS rules in
> defining   characteristics, is using that  tag in the 
> html 'purely
> presentational' or is it different to ?

You'd use  only if the text you're marking up is an actual
heading (unless you use  to mark up "oh, i want that text nice
and big", in which case you're abusing  for presentational
purposes).

But to reiterate:  has semantic connotations - the content it
marks up is a heading. , on the other hand, does not provide
any indication of what's inside, only how it's displayed.


> Sometimes,  strikes me just like a css declaration, 
> except that you
> don't have to declare what the formatting is in the header :-)

And that's a bad thing; we want separation of content and presentation.

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] Looking for a standards-compliant classified advert solution [MOVE TO CMS LIST]

[Peter Firminger]

This is really a topic for the CMS list. Please carry on the conversation
there.

Regards,

Peter

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Nicol
> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:09 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: [WSG] Looking for a standards-compliant classified
> advert solution
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> I am seraching for a standards-compliant classified ad solution.
>
> The best non-compliant solution I've found is this:
> http://www.geodesicsolutions.com/products/classifieds/classifi
> eds_enterprise.htm
>
> Does anyone know of a standards-compliant solution that is
> comparable to this?
>
> Cheers
> David
> **
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>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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>


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[WSG] Looking for a standards-compliant classified advert solution

[David Nicol]

Hello everyone,

I am seraching for a standards-compliant classified ad solution.

The best non-compliant solution I've found is this:
http://www.geodesicsolutions.com/products/classifieds/classifieds_enterprise.htm

Does anyone know of a standards-compliant solution that is comparable to this?

Cheers
David
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Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Ben]

After some testing, I think it's best to stick to using  for
blocks of code.  won't preserve whitespace, so your code's
not going to have any indenting unless you use a lot of non-breaking
spaces which will inflate the size of your file and not to mention a
real be a pain in the butt to add.

Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[designer]

- Original Message - 
From: "Patrick Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To split hairs, though, the problem with  seems to be that it
appears very much like a presentational, rather than a semantic element.
Any semantics seem to be inferred by the fact that the content is
preformatted, which is a rather weak argument...by the same rationale,
one might as well say that , ,  etc are semantic.

Heck, even the spec's definition

'The PRE element tells visual user agents that the enclosed text is
"preformatted".'
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#edef-PRE

strikes me as purely presentational.

Patrick
---

Patrick,

Surely, the fact that  denotes 'preformatting' means that the
formatting has occurred 'somewhere else' and not in the body of the html.
So, in that sense, in what way is   'presentational' any more than all
CSS is 'presentational?  To take a simple example, if I set CSS rules in
defining   characteristics, is using that  tag in the html 'purely
presentational' or is it different to ?  If so, why is that?  Why is
one 'semantic', and not the other?

Sometimes,  strikes me just like a css declaration, except that you
don't have to declare what the formatting is in the header :-)

N.B. I'm not arguing here, I'm asking the question!

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk


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Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Ben]

On 5/31/05, Prabhath Sirisena <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I would do it this way:int foo (int a, int b) {   /* do stuff here */   } And use the css:code.codeblock
 {  display: block;}Is this OK, or do you find anything unacceptably wrong here? Looksbetter than a PRE to me.
Looks ok, but I'd probably just create a generic .block style that could be used for any tag.

.block {display: block}

Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Ben Ward]

Fair point,  was indented purely for presentation. However, it
does have a small bit of semantic significance, insofaras it says
"whitespace is important". Sure, it indents that in terms of
presentation but the implied meaning is not irrelevent (especially in
the context of languages where the whitespace is important (Pyton?
Possibly). This is the way in which I think of it at the moment, until
XHTML2's  element gains support.  replaces 
for code and effectively 'fixes' the problem.

Although, all that said, does the  tag apply default white-space
formatting in the major browsers? If so, wrapping it in a  would
be ample. I seem to remember that for some reason  didn't format
the whitespace without CSS, though.

Ben

On 5/31/05, Patrick Lauke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Ben Ward
> 
>   is semantically pretty sound
> > for this, since code is pre-formatted and some languages are
> > white-space sensitive, for example.
> 
> To split hairs, though, the problem with  seems to be that it
> appears very much like a presentational, rather than a semantic element.
> Any semantics seem to be inferred by the fact that the content is
> preformatted, which is a rather weak argument...by the same rationale,
> one might as well say that , ,  etc are semantic.
> 
> Heck, even the spec's definition
> 
> 'The PRE element tells visual user agents that the enclosed text is
> "preformatted".'
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#edef-PRE
> 
> strikes me as purely presentational.
> 
> Patrick
> 
> Patrick H. Lauke
> Webmaster / University of Salford
> http://www.salford.ac.uk
> 
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> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> 


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Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Prabhath Sirisena]

I would do it this way:


int foo (int a, int b) { 
  /* do stuff here */   
} 


And use the css:

code.codeblock {
  display: block;
}

Is this OK, or do you find anything unacceptably wrong here? Looks
better than a PRE to me.

Prabhath
http://nidahas.com
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RE: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Patrick Lauke]

> Ben Ward

  is semantically pretty sound
> for this, since code is pre-formatted and some languages are
> white-space sensitive, for example.

To split hairs, though, the problem with  seems to be that it
appears very much like a presentational, rather than a semantic element.
Any semantics seem to be inferred by the fact that the content is
preformatted, which is a rather weak argument...by the same rationale,
one might as well say that , ,  etc are semantic.

Heck, even the spec's definition

'The PRE element tells visual user agents that the enclosed text is
"preformatted".'
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#edef-PRE

strikes me as purely presentational.

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

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Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Ben Ward]

Prabhath -  is an inline element, so while is should probably be
included somewhere in marking up code, you need something else on the
outside of it to create the block.  is semantically pretty sound
for this, since code is pre-formatted and some languages are
white-space sensitive, for example.

Vaska - Unfortunately there's nothing in the CSS2 spec that I know of
to do what you want (see:
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/text.html#white-space-prop). You can
either obey the white-space in the source code or automatically wrap
to the box, but not both.

The equivalent part of the CSS Level 3 spec is massively improved
though; providing additional white-space values and additional
properties for controlling individual parts of white-space handling.
"white-space" itself now effectively sets different combinations of
values for these new properties. I have no idea what
Opera/Firefox/Safari/K support is like for this yet, but I believe
that the text module is pretty stable spec wise, so expect some
implementations sooner rather than later, if not already. See:
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/#white-space

If implementations do exist, you might be able to compromise your
design by using a CSS2 compatible white-space setting and overflow
scrolling for any long lines, then set the CSS3 value afterwards for
better handling in newer browsers as and when they support it.

Cheers,
Ben

On 5/31/05, Prabhath Sirisena <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm trying to make a page that will display some source code.  The PRE
> > tag works very will with retaining \t and \n but I can not find a way
> > to make it wrap words.  Words fly off the monitor...
> 
> Shouldn't you be using the code tag instead? It's a semantically better 
> option.
> 
> However, the problem will still remain.
> 
> Prabhath
> http://nidahas.com
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> 


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RE: [WSG] VIRUS!!!

[Brett Walsh]

Well, that was fun! I foolishly trusted that the email was from the
group ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and that I had for some reason been
suspended. So I opened the attachment and clicked the file! How foolish of
me! If only I had expanded the width of the filename column. It even had a
program like icon. I suppose it was kinda intelligent of them to include so
many trailing spaces before the file extension so I'm semi impressed as I
haven't been caught like that before.
It automatically shuts down task manager when you try to open it too so it
was real battle to try and end the process in the 1 second you have before
it closes.

It appears it was sent through the wsg mail server so maybe you guys should
check if it is still in the queue somewhere? Assuming this wasn't only sent
to me.

Oh great, it also adds entries to your host file, shuts down Norton and
turns off your firewall. Ohhh the pain!


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jan Brasna
Sent: Tuesday, 31 May 2005 1:57 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Definition lists for comments in blogs

> Foobar IS F.U.B.A.R.

It isn't, it's only derived from it. See 

-- 
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Prabhath Sirisena]

> I'm trying to make a page that will display some source code.  The PRE
> tag works very will with retaining \t and \n but I can not find a way
> to make it wrap words.  Words fly off the monitor...

Shouldn't you be using the code tag instead? It's a semantically better option. 

However, the problem will still remain.

Prabhath
http://nidahas.com
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Re: [WSG] *DETECTED* Online User Violation

[john]

I've been receiving a few messages like this, but from my 
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" so it looks like I'm emailing myself.  It always 
says "more info is attached" and there's always a zipped attachment 
included.


~john
Just fair-weather words
from a four-letter friend.




on 5/31/2005 10:06 AM Rick Faaberg said the following:

On 5/31/05 1:47 AM "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
sent this out:


We regret to inform you that your account has been suspended due to the
violation of our site policy, more info is attached.


Detected what? What did I do so wrong?

Man, I thought I was a good citizen here.

Thank you,

Rick

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[WSG] warning *DETECTED* Online User Violation

[Kvnmcwebn]

DONT open the zip file attached to that USER VIOLATION email.

I dowloaded it an my virus software picked up a trojan horse right away.

-kvnmcwebn

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Re: [WSG] *DETECTED* Online User Violation

[Michael Lykke]

It's a virus - Just ignore it!

On 5/31/05, Nathan Wheatley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey,
> 
> what is this? it seems to have been mailed to the list and not
> specifically to me?
> 
> Spam?
> 
> --
> Nathan Wheatley
> 
> On 31/05/2005, at 6:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > We regret to inform you that your account has been suspended due to
> > the violation of our site policy, more info is attached.
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
>
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[WSG] Do not open the DETECTED message cause it contains a virus/trojan

[Ingo Chao]

The message is in the public archives and not adressed to you.

It contains a zip-file. This zip contains a

htm-file, but in fact its a

htmpif

wich will infect you Windows computer

* Delete the message. *

regards, Ingo Chao
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Re: [WSG] *DETECTED* Online User Violation

[Nathan Wheatley]

Hey,

what is this? it seems to have been mailed to the list and not  
specifically to me?


Spam?

--
Nathan Wheatley

On 31/05/2005, at 6:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

We regret to inform you that your account has been suspended due to  
the violation of our site policy, more info is attached.







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[WSG] Style PRE with word wrap?

[Vaska . WSG]

I'm trying to make a page that will display some source code.  The PRE 
tag works very will with retaining \t and \n but I can not find a way 
to make it wrap words.  Words fly off the monitor...


I've been reading around (via Google) and I find others with similar 
problems but no solution.  Is there a solution to this?


Help...

;)

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Re: [WSG] *DETECTED* Online User Violation

[Kvnmcwebn]

Is this a virus?

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Re: [WSG] *DETECTED* Online User Violation

[Rick Faaberg]

On 5/31/05 1:47 AM "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
sent this out:

> We regret to inform you that your account has been suspended due to the
> violation of our site policy, more info is attached.

Detected what? What did I do so wrong?

Man, I thought I was a good citizen here.

Thank you,

Rick

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