date:20051115




Add a 1px border to either  or  tags 
within the DIV's #class.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
csslistSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 4:45 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] snug a border around diff 
sized pix
I have a div that shows phots dynamically 
that are different sizes and would like to throw a 1px border aound them, I 
can't seem to get them to hug the photo, anyone got any good tricks for 
this?tia

[WSG] snug a border around diff sized pix

2005-11-15 Thread csslist

I have a div that shows phots dynamically that are different sizes and would like to throw a 1px border aound them, I can't seem to get them to hug the photo, anyone got any good tricks for this?tia

RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

Title: Message



Or...View Source and copy. Assuming that's an 
option.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, 
BhuvneshSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:48 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Can't select text on 
IE

Paul,
 
It a 
simple copy and paste requirement.

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
  Behalf Of Paul NooneSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 15:39 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Can't 
  select text on IE
  Why do you want to select the text? This might go some 
  way towards providing an adequate solution that doesn't involve totally 
  overhauling your stylsheet. 
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, 
  BhuvneshSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:03 PMTo: 
  wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Can't select text on 
  IEImportance: High
  
  Hi, 
  I have written an html page based on CSS layout. 
  The page has a parent  tag which contains many other div tags 
  including one for Side Menu, one for Masthead and one for the 
  Content.
  The problem: Using IE6, I am unable to select a 
  part of the text from the content area. When I try to select a para or a line, 
  all the text on the page within the parent  tag including the side 
  menu bar get selected.
  Does anyone have any suggestions about this problem 
  ? 
  Thanks 
  __ 
  Bhuvnesh 
  Chaudhry
  *
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RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

Title: Message



Then sadly you'll need to dispense with any absolute divs 
that obstruct the flow of the content you're trying to 
select.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, 
BhuvneshSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:48 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Can't select text on 
IE

Paul,
 
It a 
simple copy and paste requirement.

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
  Behalf Of Paul NooneSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 15:39 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Can't 
  select text on IE
  Why do you want to select the text? This might go some 
  way towards providing an adequate solution that doesn't involve totally 
  overhauling your stylsheet. 
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, 
  BhuvneshSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:03 PMTo: 
  wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Can't select text on 
  IEImportance: High
  
  Hi, 
  I have written an html page based on CSS layout. 
  The page has a parent  tag which contains many other div tags 
  including one for Side Menu, one for Masthead and one for the 
  Content.
  The problem: Using IE6, I am unable to select a 
  part of the text from the content area. When I try to select a para or a line, 
  all the text on the page within the parent  tag including the side 
  menu bar get selected.
  Does anyone have any suggestions about this problem 
  ? 
  Thanks 
  __ 
  Bhuvnesh 
  Chaudhry
  *
  This e-mail message 
  (along with any attachments) is intended only for the named addressee and 
  could contain information that is confidential or privileged. If you are not 
  the intended recipient you are notified that any dissemination, copying or use 
  of any of the information is prohibited. Please notify us immediately by 
  return e-mail if you are not the intended recipient and delete all copies of 
  the original message and attachments.
  
   
  This footnote also 
  confirms that this message has been checked for computer viruses.
  
   
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This e-mail message (along 
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RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

2005-11-15 Thread CHAUDHRY, Bhuvnesh

Title: Message

Paul,
It a
simple copy and paste requirement.

-Original Message-From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul NooneSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 15:39
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Can't
select text on IE
Why do you want to select the text? This might go some
way towards providing an adequate solution that doesn't involve totally
overhauling your stylsheet.

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY,
BhuvneshSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:03 PMTo:
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Can't select text on
IEImportance: High

Hi,
I have written an html page based on CSS layout.
The page has a parent tag which contains many other div tags
including one for Side Menu, one for Masthead and one for the
Content.
The problem: Using IE6, I am unable to select a
part of the text from the content area. When I try to select a para or a line,
all the text on the page within the parent tag including the side
menu bar get selected.
Does anyone have any suggestions about this problem
?
Thanks
__
Bhuvnesh
Chaudhry
*
This e-mail message
(along with any attachments) is intended only for the named addressee and
could contain information that is confidential or privileged. If you are not
the intended recipient you are notified that any dissemination, copying or use
of any of the information is prohibited. Please notify us immediately by
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This footnote also
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This footnote also confirms that this message has been checked for computer viruses.

RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

Title: Can't select text on IE



Why do you want to select the text? This might go some way 
towards providing an adequate solution that doesn't involve totally overhauling 
your stylsheet. 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, 
BhuvneshSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:03 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Can't select text on 
IEImportance: High

Hi, 
I have written an html page based on CSS layout. The 
page has a parent  tag which contains many other div tags including 
one for Side Menu, one for Masthead and one for the Content.
The problem: Using IE6, I am unable to select a part 
of the text from the content area. When I try to select a para or a line, all 
the text on the page within the parent  tag including the side menu 
bar get selected.
Does anyone have any suggestions about this problem 
? 
Thanks 
__ 
Bhuvnesh 
Chaudhry
*
This e-mail message (along 
with any attachments) is intended only for the named addressee and could contain 
information that is confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended 
recipient you are notified that any dissemination, copying or use of any of the 
information is prohibited. Please notify us immediately by return e-mail if you 
are not the intended recipient and delete all copies of the original message and 
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RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

2005-11-15 Thread Focas, Grant

Title: Can't select text on IE








IE has a bug where you can’t select
text in your content area if it is positioned absolutely. Try relative
positioning and use margins.

 

Grant

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, Bhuvnesh
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005
03:03
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Can't select text
on IE
Importance: High



 

Hi,


I
have written an html page based on CSS layout. The page has a parent
 tag which contains many other div tags including one for Side Menu,
one for Masthead and one for the Content.

The
problem: Using IE6, I am unable to select a part of the text from the content
area. When I try to select a para or a line, all the text on the page within
the parent  tag including the side menu bar get selected.

Does
anyone have any suggestions about this problem ? 

Thanks


__ 

Bhuvnesh Chaudhry

*

This
e-mail message (along with any attachments) is intended only for the named
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you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any dissemination,
copying or use of any of the information is prohibited. Please notify us
immediately by return e-mail if you are not the intended recipient and delete
all copies of the original message and attachments.

 

This
footnote also confirms that this message has been checked for computer viruses.

 

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[WSG] Can't select text on IE

2005-11-15 Thread CHAUDHRY, Bhuvnesh

Title: Can't select text on IE






Hi,


I have written an html page based on CSS layout. The page has a parent  tag which contains many other div tags including one for Side Menu, one for Masthead and one for the Content.

The problem: Using IE6, I am unable to select a part of the text from the content area. When I try to select a para or a line, all the text on the page within the parent  tag including the side menu bar get selected.

Does anyone have any suggestions about this problem ?


Thanks


__


Bhuvnesh Chaudhry




*
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-15 Thread Geoff Deering


Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


Geoff Deering wrote:

How do you know what device configuration is receiving your design?  
Because if you do not, and cannot be absolutely sure your design is 
not clashing with this principle, you cannot *ensure* you have 
succeeded.



But that is true of pretty much any element and situation where you're 
applying style.  And that's why we have separation of content and 
presentation: if the presentation does present a problem to the user, 
the user agent should provide the user with a simple way of 
overriding, or completely ignoring, the styles suggested by the designer.




Firstly, this still does not address the initial problem.

Secondly, by this recommendation you are actually addressing the flip 
side of the problem I am trying to address.


The case you are addressing here is
1) A recommendation of how to deal with styles that may conflict with a 
form element that is in an activated state.
2) What I was addressing was dealing with styles that may conflict with 
a form element that is in a non activated state.


Either way, that these recommendation could be feasible in practice, is 
for the functions within the user agent being able to detect at least 
two conditions;


for your condition;
if(FormElementWebDesignerStyle != FormElementClientDefaultValue)  & 
(FormElement == active) then do {apply correct display of state};


and for my condition;
if(FormElementWebDesignerStyle != FormElementClientDefaultValue) & 
(FormElement != active) then do {apply correct display of state};


I can't see how this type of functionality will ever be added to a user 
agent because it goes against the fundamental interface principles of 
OSs.  The WAI/UAAG would come under scrutiny if they did this.  And with 
all the bugs and unimplemented recommendations in user agent 
development, I can't see this ever seeing the light of day.


I'm really not up to date with CSS behaviour at all, but if someone can 
show me a real world example of this recommendation and how it could be 
applied, without programming the user agent functionality, and therefore 
changing the UAAG specs, I'd be happy to see it. 

You could probably do it with client side scripting, but then that 
breaks when it's turned off.



Unless you know for sure how users have configured their interface 
you are swimming in the sea of uncertainty. [...] If accuracy of 
communicating [...] is a primary principle to your design philosophy,


> you cannot be


sure you have not interfered with this process



With my intentional omissions (not trying to misquote you, just making 
it generic), I'd say this applies to any styling, not just the 
specific case of form elements.




If you are suggesting this is to be handled by the user agent, how are 
you going to implement it?  I'd like to know your suggestions on this, 
and the functional logic.





I know many people feel that about the WAI GL, but I have never felt 
that.  People complain about the WAI police and the lengthy drawn out 
debate that goes on there, but I mostly see a lot of people concerned 
*not* to write recommendations that restrict design.



Fair enough...I'm probably thinking of some of the more radical (and 
possibly most vocal and entrenched) elements here.



Yes, I know, but the way they are still worked with and appreciated for 
their input is inspiring.  I used to play the devils advocate there 
because in the long run it helps to apply as much scrutiny and analysis 
as possible for the most clear and comprehensive outcome.  It's 
incredibly hard work to develop accurate standards that are also free of 
unnecessary restrictions.  It requires that type of process.


---
Geoff Deering
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Re: [WSG] horizontal scroll on menu

You do want to set the width on that div, that way the nested elements 
stretch to its width.


kvnmcwebn wrote:


brillant thanks,

Adding  overflow: hidden; to .navcontainer ul does exactly what
i need it to in firefox-i.e didnt respond to it.


http://www.mcmonagle.biz/otinavtest.htm


Ted:
Adding the overflow: y-scroll property takes care of ff and ie.
-thanks




Joseph:
I tried wrapping the lot in the below div but it dosnt have any effect and
the other elements are just li so i might be missing
something.

#fakewrap{
width:0px;
padding: 0px;
margin: 0px;
}

thanks a mill

-best kevin


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Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Tim Burgan


As a nice looking example: Apple's news ticker .
Tim


The Visual Process wrote:

As pointed out already there are plenty of Javascript options which 
are standards compliant, try google.
However scrollers look horrible, you may want to go for something like 
they have one the bbc news website, http://news.bbc.co.uk/ (see 
LATEST:) not only is it easier to read than scrolling text it looks 
better overall.





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Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun


Giles Clark wrote:

I have a client who is insisting on having a newscroller on his front
page.

While there are many options, Java, Flash, DHTML, open to me to
fulfil the scroller request I just wondered what anyone felt was the
most standards compatible solution?


Maybe, just maybe, this is something...

...it might be tolerated by some - and shut down by others,

Georg
--
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-15 Thread Patrick H. Lauke


Geoff Deering wrote:

How do you know what device configuration is receiving your design?  
Because if you do not, and cannot be absolutely sure your design is not 
clashing with this principle, you cannot *ensure* you have succeeded.


But that is true of pretty much any element and situation where you're 
applying style.  And that's why we have separation of content and 
presentation: if the presentation does present a problem to the user, 
the user agent should provide the user with a simple way of overriding, 
or completely ignoring, the styles suggested by the designer.


Unless you know for sure how users have configured their interface you 
are swimming in the sea of uncertainty. [...] If accuracy of 
communicating [...] is a primary principle to your design philosophy,

> you cannot be

sure you have not interfered with this process


With my intentional omissions (not trying to misquote you, just making 
it generic), I'd say this applies to any styling, not just the specific 
case of form elements.


just as long as designers are aware that there is an issue here, 
and if they choose to do so, then there is no guarantee that their 
design may not clash against this functional convention. Just as long as 
they are implementing their design without ignorance, then I feel I've 
contributed all I want too.  That's my issue.
Once this is raised, and they realised that such recommendations, no 
matter how well intentioned (as the above), will not save them from the 
possibility that their design may clash somewhere, then they can make 
their own decisions empowered by knowledge, not hedged in ignorance.


That's cool by me. Sorry, I was under the impression you were advocating 
an almost draconian "don't use styling on form elements, ever" *rule*.


And if we are trying to future proof, who knows what wonders of 
usability research will lead to designing the next generation interfaces 
for operating systems.  Then you have to go back and correct your styles 
to address this.


In future, I'd hope user agents were more helpful in offering specific 
settings (which are easily available, not hidden under 3 hierarchies of 
menus and options dialogs etc) to override and/or set styling. Like user 
styles, but without the need to be a propellerhead CSS wrangler to 
create/implement one.


It's just raising the issue.  If designers what to go ahead and do that 
in full knowledge, that is their decision.  I just feel it is important 
to discuss the issues, and not misled them into feeling there is any way 
around this.  Nothing I have seen so far offers a solution to style 
input controls in this manner and be free of concerns of clashing with 
conveying interface state.


I'm almost tempted to drop in a "don't use colour alone to convey 
information" here...careful styling plus some additional indication that 
a control is read-only (an addition to the control's label, or a 
graphical element like a closed padlock or big X in front of it, 
whatever) may be an possible additional piece of visual information. 
Again, considerations that any designer worth her salt would at least 
take into consideration (not saying that's the solution, mind...just 
throwing another idea into the mix here).


I know many people feel that about the WAI GL, but I have never felt 
that.  People complain about the WAI police and the lengthy drawn out 
debate that goes on there, but I mostly see a lot of people concerned 
*not* to write recommendations that restrict design.


Fair enough...I'm probably thinking of some of the more radical (and 
possibly most vocal and entrenched) elements here.



... geez... that's my rant for the day... please forgive:-)


It's good stuff, as always :)

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
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[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-15 Thread Geoff Deering

Patrick Lauke wrote:

Geoff Deering

The problem is that web designers are now implementing designs that
convey meaning to form controls, that they are not intending
to imply in their design,

Which, again, is a sign of a bad designer, and a problem that should be solved by
educating the designer, not simply saying that inputs should not be styled. A far more
open recommendation would be along the lines of "feel free to style form controls,
but ensure that you maintain clear and unequivocal visual clues as to the type, state,
etc of the individual controls, in sympathy with system defaults and user
expectations".

That sounds absolutely nice and clear. Wonderful. But please explain
how to execute this as a recommendation; "but ensure that you maintain
clear and unequivocal visual clues as to the type, state, etc of the
individual controls, in sympathy with system defaults and user
expectations"?

How do you know what device configuration is receiving your design?
Because if you do not, and cannot be absolutely sure your design is not
clashing with this principle, you cannot *ensure* you have succeeded.
Unless you know for sure how users have configured their interface you
are swimming in the sea of uncertainty. There is no guarantee you have
not miscommunicated the state of the control. If accuracy of
communicating the true state of the elements and attributes of your
design is a primary principle to your design philosophy, you cannot be
sure you have not interfered with this process if you overlay this type
of css on these form elements.

I don't mind going on debating this, but I would like to state clearly
here; just as long as designers are aware that there is an issue here,
and if they choose to do so, then there is no guarantee that their
design may not clash against this functional convention. Just as long as
they are implementing their design without ignorance, then I feel I've
contributed all I want too. That's my issue.

Once this is raised, and they realised that such recommendations, no
matter how well intentioned (as the above), will not save them from the
possibility that their design may clash somewhere, then they can make
their own decisions empowered by knowledge, not hedged in ignorance.

As an extended note; this could happen with any input field background
color, but the likely probability that it impacts, would probably be
very minimal, IMHO. But the minute I began to see grey becoming the
default for conveying the presence of input fields in designs (which
basically isn't a bad idea in many designs, in fact, when you look at it
it appears to give better cognitive enhancement), *except* for this
problem of this being the default reserve interface for conveying state
to users on many major OSs.

And if we are trying to future proof, who knows what wonders of
usability research will lead to designing the next generation interfaces
for operating systems. Then you have to go back and correct your styles
to address this. And how many of use actually get a chance to go back
and correct these on sites we have done years later. Your lucky if you can.

It's just raising the issue. If designers what to go ahead and do that
in full knowledge, that is their decision. I just feel it is important
to discuss the issues, and not misled them into feeling there is any way
around this. Nothing I have seen so far offers a solution to style
input controls in this manner and be free of concerns of clashing with
conveying interface state.

this will degrade the user experience because of purely visual
design degrading the inherent meaning of a standard interface between
user and form element state.

Carefully considered, as opposed to "purely visual", design (and yes, there IS a
difference, despite the general feeling evident in certain factions of the WAI that all design is
just "bad") has its place in enhancing and visually integrating form controls in an
overall site design.

I know many people feel that about the WAI GL, but I have never felt
that. People complain about the WAI police and the lengthy drawn out
debate that goes on there, but I mostly see a lot of people concerned
*not* to write recommendations that restrict design. I know others see
it differently, but I know lots of them that actually see accessibility
and liberated design as interdependent. Is CSSZG not a great show case?

I love it that by far the majority of the people on the Working
Guidelines Group have a vision of incredible compassion and lack of self
interest. I learnt *heaps*, not only from the knowledge and opinions of
those on it, but also by their manner as people and as a group when
discussing issues. I'm really grateful to have had an opportunity to
work with them a little. I know it has driven some people to
exhaustion, but still there remains a real integrity amongst those that
work on it, and those

[WSG] Screen reader users: Label text for search field?

2005-11-15 Thread Andy Kirkwood, Motive


Hi,

(Apologies for the re-post, thought this might have been buried under 
the flurry of CSS queries.)


Currently there seem to be a few different approaches (with regional 
variation) to marking up a simple search form.


-Search for [Input field] [Button: Go]
-[Input field: Text: Search for...] [Button: Go]
-[Input field] [Button: Search]

The above approaches seem ok for sighted users.

The issue I've come across is when the search form also enables the 
scope to be limited to a section of a website. In such a case I tend 
to build more of a composite sentence from the input elements:


-Search [Select: Scope/Section names] for [Input field] [Button: Go]

The issue is labelling the input field. Although accessibility sites 
such as WebAim markup the text 'Search' as the label for the input 
field, 'Search' does not describe the nature of the input? On the 
WebAim site 'Search' is used as the label for the input field on one 
search form [1] AND as the label for the search scope on another [2].


[1] < http://www.webaim.org >
[2] < http://www.webaim.org/siteindex >

Compare the relationship between the label and field for another 
common example:


Surname [Input field]

Here the user is expected to enter their surname into the field.

Perhaps a more appropriate label for the search input field would be 
'keyword'? Or is the general consensus that 'Search' is accepted 
shorthand for 'I want to find...' or 'term to search for'?


I'm also attempting to track down some references on how screen 
readers negotiate (non-Javascript) select elements. Is it preferable 
to associate a label with the select, or use the first option in the 
select as the label.


Label: Limit search to: [Select menu]

or...

[Begin select
*Limit search to*
-Entire website (selected)
-Corporate info
-Glossary
-Guides
-News
End select]

Any screen reader users out there who would like to add their 2 
cents/pence/pesos?


Best regards,

--
Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director

Motive | web.design.integrity
http://www.motive.co.nz
ph: (04) 3 800 800  fx: (04) 970 9693
mob: 021 369 693
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Re: [WSG] safari, png, and me

You may have seen it but this has some detailed info: 
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/png-gamma/


Ted Drake wrote:


Safari has been a source of four-letter words grumbled in a low voice from
me for a while. I don't use it as my test machine and so I lack the intimate
knowledge of its color rendering behavior.  However, I have noticed a
difference in Safari with background colors and was hoping someone on this
list could clue me in on what is happening.

Here's the example:

To test alpha transparencies on a project, I created two divs, each has a
background color and an image floated to the top right.
One, the control, has a background color that is identical to the background
color in the image (non-transparent png). The background of the image has a
rounded corner and the object in the image has a drop shadow against the
flat color. This should create a seamless transition, as it does in FF.

The other div uses the same background color but also uses the rounded
corner background from the main image as a background image in the top
right. The new image is floated to the top right and is an alpha transparent
png with drop shadow. 


Now, I was expecting the first div to be seamless and as my experience in
the past has shown, I expected the second div to have a different background
color under the image.  Imagine my surprise when both had mismatching
background colors!

Here's the simple CSS

div { width:400px; background-color:#FF9B09; border-top:5px solid
#fff;float:left; margin:5px;}
div img {float:right; margin-top:-5px;}
#transparent {background:#FF9B09 url(test-bg.png) no-repeat 100% -5px;}



The simple HTML




So, do you see anything wrong?  Normally, I always put my color-codes in
lowercase letters. I copied and pasted the hex code from Fireworks, the
program I used to create the test images.

What type of alpha transparency is best when optimizing graphics? Should it
be websnap adaptive? Exact? 


Thanks

Ted Drake
Front-end Engineer
Yahoo! 



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Re: [WSG] safari, png, and me

2005-11-15 Thread Jan Brasna


Test machine was 1.3.1


1.3 should be fine :/


what is the solution?


PNGCrush or something similar to cut off the gamma info. However it's 
not 100% - see below.



I didn't find anything on PNG Gamma correction.


Ah, sry, my bad, I forgot the sources: 



--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Thierry Koblentz

Tom Livingston wrote:
> This is essentially the same as adding the extra div.
> 
> 
>   foo
> 
> 
> Apply the padding to the  instead of hacking the div. It's the
> same difference.
> 
> Right Thierry? ;-)

Exactly!
It's about constructing the box, not fixing it ;-)

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com



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RE: [WSG] safari, png, and me

2005-11-15 Thread Ted Drake

Test machine was 1.3.1, what is the solution? I didn't find anything on PNG
Gamma correction.

Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Jan Brasna
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 10:23 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] safari, png, and me

Isn't an exaple of PNG gamma corection?

Safari 1.2.x, 1.3.x/2.x?

-- 
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] safari, png, and me

2005-11-15 Thread Jan Brasna


Isn't an exaple of PNG gamma corection?

Safari 1.2.x, 1.3.x/2.x?

--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Terrence Wood




Ask him if he can point out any that he *uses* himself on a regular 
basis.


T.

On 16 Nov 2005, at 6:07 AM, Giles Clark wrote:



Thanks The Visual Process.

As pointed out already there are plenty of Javascript options which 
are

standards compliant, try google.
However scrollers look horrible, you may want to go for something like
not only is it easier to read than scrolling text it looks better 
overall.



I couldn't agree with you more. It's why I said the "my client is 
insisting
on" I have tried to talk him out of it and still have hopes that I may 
win.


Do you have any idea of a similar system to the Beeb's. As a last 
resort

alternative I could put that to him.

Giles




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[WSG] safari, png, and me

2005-11-15 Thread Ted Drake

Safari has been a source of four-letter words grumbled in a low voice from
me for a while. I don't use it as my test machine and so I lack the intimate
knowledge of its color rendering behavior.  However, I have noticed a
difference in Safari with background colors and was hoping someone on this
list could clue me in on what is happening.

Here's the example:

To test alpha transparencies on a project, I created two divs, each has a
background color and an image floated to the top right.
One, the control, has a background color that is identical to the background
color in the image (non-transparent png). The background of the image has a
rounded corner and the object in the image has a drop shadow against the
flat color. This should create a seamless transition, as it does in FF.

The other div uses the same background color but also uses the rounded
corner background from the main image as a background image in the top
right. The new image is floated to the top right and is an alpha transparent
png with drop shadow. 

Now, I was expecting the first div to be seamless and as my experience in
the past has shown, I expected the second div to have a different background
color under the image.  Imagine my surprise when both had mismatching
background colors!

Here's the simple CSS

div { width:400px; background-color:#FF9B09; border-top:5px solid
#fff;float:left; margin:5px;}
div img {float:right; margin-top:-5px;}
#transparent {background:#FF9B09 url(test-bg.png) no-repeat 100% -5px;}
 


The simple HTML




So, do you see anything wrong?  Normally, I always put my color-codes in
lowercase letters. I copied and pasted the hex code from Fireworks, the
program I used to create the test images.

What type of alpha transparency is best when optimizing graphics? Should it
be websnap adaptive? Exact? 

Thanks

Ted Drake
Front-end Engineer
Yahoo! 


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RE: [WSG] horizontal scroll on menu

2005-11-15 Thread kvnmcwebn



brillant thanks,

Adding  overflow: hidden; to .navcontainer ul does exactly what
i need it to in firefox-i.e didnt respond to it.


http://www.mcmonagle.biz/otinavtest.htm


Ted:
Adding the overflow: y-scroll property takes care of ff and ie.
-thanks




Joseph:
I tried wrapping the lot in the below div but it dosnt have any effect and
the other elements are just li so i might be missing
something.

#fakewrap{
width:0px;
padding: 0px;
margin: 0px;
}

thanks a mill

-best kevin


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Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Tom Livingston



On Nov 15, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:


It is a matter of "moving down" the padding declaration.


This is essentially the same as adding the extra div.


 foo


Apply the padding to the  instead of hacking the div. It's the  
same difference.


Right Thierry? ;-)


-
Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
www.mlinc.com


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RE: [WSG] horizontal scroll on menu

2005-11-15 Thread Ted Drake

There is the overflow-y: scroll; property to force a scroll bar on the
vertical axis. You will still need to manage the width of your list to work
with the new scrollbar.

Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 9:02 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] horizontal scroll on menu

Hello,

A client has requested that a long menu be contained in
a fixed hieght situation with a vertical scroll bar.
Im doing a test with code from the list o matic site.

Heres an example.

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/otinavtest.htm

the problem is that its hard to loose the horizontal scroll bar
and get right to the edge of the list blocks. Especially in fire fox. I
would prefer to keep the styled borders so i need a fix.

my question:
Is there anyway to fool browsers into "thinking" that the
list container and/or list blocks are narrower than they are?

-best
kevin



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RE: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Giles Clark


Thanks The Visual Process.

>As pointed out already there are plenty of Javascript options which are
>standards compliant, try google.
>However scrollers look horrible, you may want to go for something like
>not only is it easier to read than scrolling text it looks better overall.


I couldn't agree with you more. It's why I said the "my client is insisting
on" I have tried to talk him out of it and still have hopes that I may win.

Do you have any idea of a similar system to the Beeb's. As a last resort
alternative I could put that to him.

Giles




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Re: [WSG] horizontal scroll on menu


This appears to be a box model width issue.  You have a couple of options.

1. Use a hack to send a thinner width to firefox (adds padding to width)

2. Remove any padding/margins/borders from elements that have a 
specified width


3. My favorite (and in discussion currently on this list) is to wrap 
your padded elements with a div that states the width and 0 padding and 
margins)


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

kvnmcwebn wrote:


Hello,

A client has requested that a long menu be contained in
a fixed hieght situation with a vertical scroll bar.
Im doing a test with code from the list o matic site.

Heres an example.

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/otinavtest.htm

the problem is that its hard to loose the horizontal scroll bar
and get right to the edge of the list blocks. Especially in fire fox. I
would prefer to keep the styled borders so i need a fix.

my question:
Is there anyway to fool browsers into "thinking" that the
list container and/or list blocks are narrower than they are?

-best
kevin



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Re: [WSG] horizontal scroll on menu





You could try adding  overflow: hidden; to .navcontainer ul
which removes the horizontal scrollbar for me, not tested in IE
only firefox.
Hope thats of use.

kvnmcwebn wrote:

  Hello,

A client has requested that a long menu be contained in
a fixed hieght situation with a vertical scroll bar.
Im doing a test with code from the list o matic site.

Heres an example.

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/otinavtest.htm

the problem is that its hard to loose the horizontal scroll bar
and get right to the edge of the list blocks. Especially in fire fox. I
would prefer to keep the styled borders so i need a fix.

my question:
Is there anyway to fool browsers into "thinking" that the
list container and/or list blocks are narrower than they are?

-best
kevin



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Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Thierry Koblentz

Charlie Bartlett wrote:
> The reason I use this technique rather that the box model hack, is
> because we cannot guarantee that the box model hack will work in
> future browsers, I know its probably not going to be a big deal to
> fix it, knocking out a couple of lines of css shouldn't take long,
> but I prefer not to have clients moaning at me because their sites
> have suddenly stopped working. This technique is far more future
> proof, and allthough its not semantically perfect, i prefer it to
> having unnecessary voice selectors in your style sheet.

What I was saying is that there are ways to deal with this without any hack
at all.
It is a matter of "moving down" the padding declaration.
If borders cannot be achieved with images and that *a few pixels* create a
problem (because the designer is looking for a
pixel-perfect-design-across-the-board), then one can use a conditional
comment to "fix" IE5.
In any case, there is no need for an extra DIV in the markup or CSS filters
in the stylesheet.

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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[WSG] horizontal scroll on menu

2005-11-15 Thread kvnmcwebn

Hello,

A client has requested that a long menu be contained in
a fixed hieght situation with a vertical scroll bar.
Im doing a test with code from the list o matic site.

Heres an example.

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/otinavtest.htm

the problem is that its hard to loose the horizontal scroll bar
and get right to the edge of the list blocks. Especially in fire fox. I
would prefer to keep the styled borders so i need a fix.

my question:
Is there anyway to fool browsers into "thinking" that the
list container and/or list blocks are narrower than they are?

-best
kevin



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Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Charlie Bartlett

The reason I use this technique rather that the box model hack, is because we cannot guarantee that the box model hack will work in future browsers, I know its probably not going to be a big deal to fix it, knocking out a couple of lines of css shouldn't take long, but I prefer not to have clients moaning at me because their sites have suddenly stopped working. This technique is far more future proof, and allthough its not semantically perfect, i prefer it to having unnecessary voice selectors in your style sheet.
On 11/15/05, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Charlie Bartlett wrote:> Because it is a hack, I tend to use the same technique as Joesph, I> think its best to avoid hacks wherever possible.But using an extra DIV like this is also a hack. And not better IMO, since
it mixes structure and presentation.My approach is to *not* mix dimensions with padding/border declarations onthe same axis.I don't think padding is an issue since it can be "moved down" to the inner
elements.Border is more tricky, but it is always possible to keep the box model inmind and plan ahead when it comes to visual design...Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

As pointed out already there are plenty of Javascript options which are 
standards compliant, try google.
However scrollers look horrible, you may want to go for something like 
they have one the bbc news website, http://news.bbc.co.uk/ (see LATEST:) 
not only is it easier to read than scrolling text it looks better overall.


Giles Clark wrote:


I have a client who is insisting on having a newscroller on his front page.

While there are many options, Java, Flash, DHTML, open to me to fulfil the
scroller request I just wondered what anyone felt was the most standards
compatible solution?

Many thanks



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RE: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Patrick Lauke

> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> I think it depends on 1) whether 
> it's important that the news scroller be
> "accessible" by search engines

...or, you know...*actual people* trying to use the site...

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/

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Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

If you mean a vertical scroller that scrolls by hand, you can steal this 
one I made (CSS) way back:


http://www.ventnorcity.org/

If he want marquee scrolling or auto vertical scrolling, tell the client 
that its just plain bad taste - yuck!  Just kidding.


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Giles Clark wrote:


I have a client who is insisting on having a newscroller on his front page.

While there are many options, Java, Flash, DHTML, open to me to fulfil the
scroller request I just wondered what anyone felt was the most standards
compatible solution?

Many thanks



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Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Thierry Koblentz

Charlie Bartlett wrote:
> Because it is a hack, I tend to use the same technique as Joesph, I
> think its best to avoid hacks wherever possible.

But using an extra DIV like this is also a hack. And not better IMO, since
it mixes structure and presentation.
My approach is to *not* mix dimensions with padding/border declarations on
the same axis.
I don't think padding is an issue since it can be "moved down" to the inner
elements.
Border is more tricky, but it is always possible to keep the box model in
mind and plan ahead when it comes to visual design...

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Christian Montoya

> I have a client who is insisting on having a newscroller on his front page.
>
> While there are many options, Java, Flash, DHTML, open to me to fulfil the
> scroller request I just wondered what anyone felt was the most standards
> compatible solution?
>
> Many thanks

Java has the same problems as flash, with lots less support and it's
slower. It's either Flash or Javascript, Javascript being the more
accessible and better for the search engines.

--
--
C Montoya
rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
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Re: [WSG] Help with menu

The elaborate on Charlie's statement, the hacks will at some point bite 
us on the rear end.  There's a huge possibility we'll be going back and 
re-fixing those fixes.  I'm too lazy to put myself in that position, 
which is why I chose this profession in the first place.


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Charlie Bartlett wrote:

Because it is a hack, I tend to use the same technique as Joesph, I 
think its best to avoid hacks wherever possible.
 
Charlie

http://www.bartlettdesign.co.uk
 
On 11/15/05, *The Visual Process* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


I'm confused at your suggestion, why add extra markup when you
just need
to use the box model hack in the css
http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html

Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

> I'm not sure...about a physical reference but here's an example:
>
> http://sitesbyjoe.com/box_examples.htm
>
> It seems to work flawlessly, and its simplicity makes me feel good
> about using this approach.  It also frees me from having to stick
> hacks in to try and please the browsers.
>
> Joe Taylor
> http://sitesbyjoe.com
>
>
> James O'Neill wrote:
>
>> Joseph: Interesting. Do you have something that I can reference
for
>> this?
>>
>> Thierry: I will take a look at that tonight.
>>
>> Thanks guys!
>>
>> On 11/15/05, * Joseph R. B. Taylor* < [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>> >> wrote:
>>
>> As a reminder, at this point you cannot safely apply widths
to any
>> elements that have a border, padding or a margin.  In the
case you
>> need
>> to apply width adn one of the others mentioned, safest best
is to
>> insert
>> a nested div/span with the padding applied etc to break it up.
>>
>> This has long since been a point of confusion for many
people, and
>> this
>> simple remedy (although in the long term not the best)
proves most
>> effective with todays browsers.
>>
>> Joe Taylor
>> http://sitesbyjoe.com
>>
>> Thierry Koblentz wrote:
>>
>> >James O'Neill wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>I am having problems with a menu that is similar to the
>> Alistapart's
>> >>hybrid menu. I can not get the width to be consistantly even
>> with the
>> >>rest of the site and it is not workig in IE or Opera. It
works
>> fine
>> >>in Firebird. I have been beating my head against this for
quite a
>> >>long time.
>> >>
>> >>It seems that absolutely positioned widths do not behave as I
>> expect
>> >>them. Oi!
>> >>
>> >>http://twitch.sharkpork.com/_work/Freedom/
>> >>
>> >>"Help me Obi-wan you are my only hope"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >Did you give this one a try?
>> >http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp

>> 
>> >It is a bit moe accessible.
>> >
>> >Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com 

>> >
>> >**
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>> 
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> __
>> "Bugs are, by definition, necessary.
>> Just ask Microsoft!"
>>
>> www.co.sauk.wi.us 
> (Work)
>> www.arionshome.com 
 (Personal)
>> www.freexenon.com 
 (Consulting)
>> __
>> Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox
>> http://www.getfirefox.com
>>
>> Making a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards
>> http://www.maccaws.org/ >
>>
>> W

Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread josh

Really there aren't any issues with Javascript and there are more than a few 
ways you could present
the data utilizing different javascript techniques.  Flash is a pretty 
simplistic and very
versatile solution also.  I think it depends on 1) whether it's important that 
the news scroller be
"accessible" by search engines (in which case it'd be very important to NOT use 
flash) and/or 2)
whether you mind the possibility of your users needing to download the flash 
plugin for their
browser.



- Original Message -
From: Giles Clark
To:  
Sent: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:28:38 -
Subject: [WSG] news scroller and standards



I have a client who is insisting on having a newscroller on his front page.

While there are many options, Java, Flash, DHTML, open to me to fulfil the
scroller request I just wondered what anyone felt was the most standards
compatible solution?

Many thanks



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Re: [WSG] Help with menu





Hmmm I disagree, with the hack you can change it from the one css file
in the future, with your method you add unnecessary markup to the
xhtml.  I'd rather use a hack than have bloated markup.  
(Although these days I use the conditional comment to separate out
style sheets when needed which results in no bloated markup and no
hacks.)

Charlie Bartlett wrote:

  Because it is a hack, I tend to use the same technique as
Joesph, I think its best to avoid hacks wherever possible.
   
  Charlie
  http://www.bartlettdesign.co.uk
 
  On 11/15/05, The Visual Process <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
  I'm
confused at your suggestion, why add extra markup when you just need
to use the box model hack in the css

http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html

Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

> I'm not sure...about a physical reference but here's an example:

>
> http://sitesbyjoe.com/box_examples.htm
>
> It seems to work flawlessly, and its simplicity makes me feel good
> about using this approach.  It also frees me from having to stick

> hacks in to try and please the browsers.
>
> Joe Taylor
> http://sitesbyjoe.com
>
>
> James O'Neill wrote:
>
>> Joseph: Interesting. Do you have something that I can
reference for

>> this?
>>
>> Thierry: I will take a look at that tonight.
>>
>> Thanks guys!
>>
>> On 11/15/05, * Joseph R. B. Taylor* < 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
wrote:
>>
>> As a reminder, at this point you cannot safely apply
widths to any
>> elements that have a border, padding or a margin.  In the
case you

>> need
>> to apply width adn one of the others mentioned, safest
best is to
>> insert
>> a nested div/span with the padding applied etc to break it
up.
>>
>> This has long since been a point of confusion for many
people, and
>> this
>> simple remedy (although in the long term not the best)
proves most
>> effective with todays browsers.

>>
>> Joe Taylor
>> http://sitesbyjoe.com
>>
>> Thierry Koblentz wrote:
>>
>> >James O'Neill wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>I am having problems with a menu that is similar
to the
>> Alistapart's
>> >>hybrid menu. I can not get the width to be
consistantly even

>> with the
>> >>rest of the site and it is not workig in IE or
Opera. It works
>> fine
>> >>in Firebird. I have been beating my head against
this for quite a
>> >>long time.
>> >>
>> >>It seems that absolutely positioned widths do not
behave as I
>> expect
>> >>them. Oi!
>> >>

>> >>http://twitch.sharkpork.com/_work/Freedom/
>> >>
>> >>"Help me Obi-wan you are my only hope"

>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >Did you give this one a try?
>> >http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp

>> 
>> >It is a bit moe accessible.
>> >
>> >Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

>> >
>> >**

>> >The discussion list for   http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>> 
>> >
>> > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> > for some hints on posting to the list & getting
help

>> >**
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> **

>> The discussion list for   http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>>
>> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm

>> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> __

>> "Bugs are, by definition, necessary.
>> Just ask Microsoft!"
>>
>> www.co.sauk.wi.us  (Work)
>> www.arionshome.com

(Personal)
>> www.freexenon.com
 
(Consulting)
>> __
>> Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox
>> 
http://www.getfirefox.com
>>
>> Making a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards
>> http://www.maccaws.org/

>>
>> Web Standards Project
>> http://www.webstandards.org/
>>
>> Web Standards Group
>> 
http://www.webstandardsgroup.org/
>>
>> Guild of Accessible Web Designers
>> http://www.gawds.org/
>
>
> **

> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm

> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>
>
>

**

The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm

for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
***

[WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Giles Clark



I have a client who is insisting on having a newscroller on his front page.

While there are many options, Java, Flash, DHTML, open to me to fulfil the
scroller request I just wondered what anyone felt was the most standards
compatible solution?

Many thanks



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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Charlie Bartlett

Because it is a hack, I tend to use the same technique as Joesph, I think its best to avoid hacks wherever possible.
 
Charlie
http://www.bartlettdesign.co.uk 
On 11/15/05, The Visual Process <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm confused at your suggestion, why add extra markup when you just needto use the box model hack in the css
http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.htmlJoseph R. B. Taylor wrote:> I'm not sure...about a physical reference but here's an example:
>> http://sitesbyjoe.com/box_examples.htm>> It seems to work flawlessly, and its simplicity makes me feel good> about using this approach.  It also frees me from having to stick
> hacks in to try and please the browsers.>> Joe Taylor> http://sitesbyjoe.com>>> James O'Neill wrote:>>> Joseph: Interesting. Do you have something that I can reference for
>> this? Thierry: I will take a look at that tonight. Thanks guys! On 11/15/05, * Joseph R. B. Taylor* < 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: As a reminder, at this point you cannot safely apply widths to any>> elements that have a border, padding or a margin.  In the case you
>> need>> to apply width adn one of the others mentioned, safest best is to>> insert>> a nested div/span with the padding applied etc to break it up.>>
>> This has long since been a point of confusion for many people, and>> this>> simple remedy (although in the long term not the best) proves most>> effective with todays browsers.
 Joe Taylor>> http://sitesbyjoe.com Thierry Koblentz wrote: >James O'Neill wrote:
>> >>> >>> >>I am having problems with a menu that is similar to the>> Alistapart's>> >>hybrid menu. I can not get the width to be consistantly even
>> with the>> >>rest of the site and it is not workig in IE or Opera. It works>> fine>> >>in Firebird. I have been beating my head against this for quite a
>> >>long time.>>  >>It seems that absolutely positioned widths do not behave as I>> expect>> >>them. Oi!>> >>
>> >>http://twitch.sharkpork.com/_work/Freedom/>>  >>"Help me Obi-wan you are my only hope"
>>   >>> >Did you give this one a try?>> >http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp
>> >> >It is a bit moe accessible.>> >>> >Thierry | 
www.TJKDesign.com >> >>> >**
>> >The discussion list for   http://webstandardsgroup.org/>> 
>> >>> > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm>> > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>> >**>> >>> >>> >>> >>> **
>> The discussion list for   http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help>> **>> -->> __
>> "Bugs are, by definition, necessary.>> Just ask Microsoft!" www.co.sauk.wi.us  (Work)>> www.arionshome.com  (Personal)>> www.freexenon.com
  (Consulting)>> __>> Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox>> 
http://www.getfirefox.com Making a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards>> http://www.maccaws.org/  Web Standards Project>> http://www.webstandards.org/ Web Standards Group>> 
http://www.webstandardsgroup.org/ Guild of Accessible Web Designers>> http://www.gawds.org/>>> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/>> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help> ****
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread josh

What you have to remember to do is subtract any margins, padding, and borders 
you have defined for
that element.  For instance...

 
div#one {
  width:300px;
  background-color:#FF;
}

... displays a div that's 300px wide.  But if you want to pad it's contents you 
need to subtract
the padding (minus 10 for the left and then minus 10 for the right for a total 
of 20px)...

 
div#one {
  width:280px;
  padding:10px;
  background-color:#FF;
}

... the same goes if you add borders...

 
div#one {
  width:278px;
  padding:10px;
  border:1px solid #00;
  background-color:#FF;
}


- Original Message -
From: Joseph R. B. Taylor
To:  
Sent: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:05:24 -0500
Subject: Re: [WSG] Help with menu

I'm not sure...about a physical reference but here's an example:

http://sitesbyjoe.com/box_examples.htm

It seems to work flawlessly, and its simplicity makes me feel good about 
using this approach.  It also frees me from having to stick hacks in to 
try and please the browsers.

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com


James O'Neill wrote:

> Joseph: Interesting. Do you have something that I can reference for this?
>
> Thierry: I will take a look at that tonight.
>
> Thanks guys!
>
> On 11/15/05, * Joseph R. B. Taylor* < [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> As a reminder, at this point you cannot safely apply widths to any
> elements that have a border, padding or a margin.  In the case you
> need
> to apply width adn one of the others mentioned, safest best is to
> insert
> a nested div/span with the padding applied etc to break it up.
>
> This has long since been a point of confusion for many people, and
> this
> simple remedy (although in the long term not the best) proves most
> effective with todays browsers.
>
> Joe Taylor
> http://sitesbyjoe.com
>
> Thierry Koblentz wrote:
>
> >James O'Neill wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I am having problems with a menu that is similar to the Alistapart's
> >>hybrid menu. I can not get the width to be consistantly even
> with the
> >>rest of the site and it is not workig in IE or Opera. It works fine
> >>in Firebird. I have been beating my head against this for quite a
> >>long time.
> >>
> >>It seems that absolutely positioned widths do not behave as I
> expect
> >>them. Oi!
> >>
> >>http://twitch.sharkpork.com/_work/Freedom/
> >>
> >>"Help me Obi-wan you are my only hope"
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Did you give this one a try?
> >http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp
> 
> >It is a bit moe accessible.
> >
> >Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com 
> >
> >**
> >The discussion list for   http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
> >
> > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> >**
> >
> >
> >
> >
> **
> The discussion list for   http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> __
> "Bugs are, by definition, necessary.
> Just ask Microsoft!"
>
> www.co.sauk.wi.us  (Work)
> www.arionshome.com  (Personal)
> www.freexenon.com  (Consulting)
> __
> Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox
> http://www.getfirefox.com
>
> Making a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards
> http://www.maccaws.org/ 
>
> Web Standards Project
> http://www.webstandards.org/
>
> Web Standards Group
> http://www.webstandardsgroup.org/
>
> Guild of Accessible Web Designers
> http://www.gawds.org/ 

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

I'm confused at your suggestion, why add extra markup when you just need 
to use the box model hack in the css 
http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html


Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:


I'm not sure...about a physical reference but here's an example:

http://sitesbyjoe.com/box_examples.htm

It seems to work flawlessly, and its simplicity makes me feel good 
about using this approach.  It also frees me from having to stick 
hacks in to try and please the browsers.


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com


James O'Neill wrote:

Joseph: Interesting. Do you have something that I can reference for 
this?


Thierry: I will take a look at that tonight.

Thanks guys!

On 11/15/05, * Joseph R. B. Taylor* < [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


As a reminder, at this point you cannot safely apply widths to any
elements that have a border, padding or a margin.  In the case you
need
to apply width adn one of the others mentioned, safest best is to
insert
a nested div/span with the padding applied etc to break it up.

This has long since been a point of confusion for many people, and
this
simple remedy (although in the long term not the best) proves most
effective with todays browsers.

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Thierry Koblentz wrote:

>James O'Neill wrote:
>
>
>>I am having problems with a menu that is similar to the 
Alistapart's

>>hybrid menu. I can not get the width to be consistantly even
with the
>>rest of the site and it is not workig in IE or Opera. It works 
fine

>>in Firebird. I have been beating my head against this for quite a
>>long time.
>>
>>It seems that absolutely positioned widths do not behave as I
expect
>>them. Oi!
>>
>>http://twitch.sharkpork.com/_work/Freedom/
>>
>>"Help me Obi-wan you are my only hope"
>>
>>
>
>Did you give this one a try?
>http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp

>It is a bit moe accessible.
>
>Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com 
>
>**
>The discussion list for   http://webstandardsgroup.org/

>
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>**
>
>
>
>
**
The discussion list for   http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**




--
__
"Bugs are, by definition, necessary.
Just ask Microsoft!"

www.co.sauk.wi.us  (Work)
www.arionshome.com  (Personal)
www.freexenon.com  (Consulting)
__
Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox
http://www.getfirefox.com

Making a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards
http://www.maccaws.org/ 

Web Standards Project
http://www.webstandards.org/

Web Standards Group
http://www.webstandardsgroup.org/

Guild of Accessible Web Designers
http://www.gawds.org/ 



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**






**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

I'm not sure...about a physical reference but here's an example:

http://sitesbyjoe.com/box_examples.htm

It seems to work flawlessly, and its simplicity makes me feel good about 
using this approach.  It also frees me from having to stick hacks in to 
try and please the browsers.

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

James O'Neill wrote:

Joseph: Interesting. Do you have something that I can reference for this?

Thierry: I will take a look at that tonight.

Thanks guys!

On 11/15/05, * Joseph R. B. Taylor* < [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:

As a reminder, at this point you cannot safely apply widths to any
elements that have a border, padding or a margin.  In the case you
need
to apply width adn one of the others mentioned, safest best is to
insert
a nested div/span with the padding applied etc to break it up.

This has long since been a point of confusion for many people, and
this
simple remedy (although in the long term not the best) proves most
effective with todays browsers.

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Thierry Koblentz wrote:

>James O'Neill wrote:
>
>
>>I am having problems with a menu that is similar to the Alistapart's
>>hybrid menu. I can not get the width to be consistantly even
with the
>>rest of the site and it is not workig in IE or Opera. It works fine
>>in Firebird. I have been beating my head against this for quite a
>>long time.
>>
>>It seems that absolutely positioned widths do not behave as I
expect
>>them. Oi!
>>
>>http://twitch.sharkpork.com/_work/Freedom/
>>
>>"Help me Obi-wan you are my only hope"
>>
>>
>
>Did you give this one a try?
>http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp

>It is a bit moe accessible.
>
>Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com 
>
>**
>The discussion list for   http://webstandardsgroup.org/

>
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>**
>
>
>
>
**
The discussion list for   http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

--
__
"Bugs are, by definition, necessary.
Just ask Microsoft!"

www.co.sauk.wi.us  (Work)
www.arionshome.com  (Personal)
www.freexenon.com  (Consulting)
__
Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox
http://www.getfirefox.com

Making a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards
http://www.maccaws.org/ 

Web Standards Project
http://www.webstandards.org/

Web Standards Group
http://www.webstandardsgroup.org/

Guild of Accessible Web Designers
http://www.gawds.org/ 

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[WSG] Vertical alignment of columns

2005-11-15 Thread CCE

Hello,

I wonder if anyone could shed any light on this problem?

My StyleMaster created web-site is at:

http://ito.gn.apc.org

Note: this problem does not occur in Firefox 1.07--just in IE.

I have a 3 column set up with header and footer created by the 
Stylemaster layout editor. I also later added a Navbar.

The problem is with the vertical alignment of the contents of the left 
and right outer columns. The left column text is right justified and 
the text of the right column is left justified to give a symmetrical
appearance. Column padding is 2%.

When viewing the page in the latest version of IE6 (the one that comes SP2),
the text and images lose their uniformity of vertical alignment and padding.
So on first loading any of the pages in IE6, the vertical alignment and
padding seems fine until a point is reached, say halfway down the column,
where the padding is lost and the text and images appear flush with the
border for the rest of the column downwards. This gives a kinked appearance.

If I refresh the page, the vertical alignment and padding becomes uniform
and the problem disappears until I go to another page and see the same
problem again in one or both of the columns.

I would be grateful to know if other people experience this problem when
viewing the site.

The stylesheet is as follows:

body {
padding: 0;
font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px;
line-height: 1.4em;
font-weight: normal;
margin-left: +2%;
margin-right: +2%;
margin-top: +0%;
margin-bottom: +0%;}

p.breadcrumbs {font-size: .9em;
font-family: sans-serif;
background-color: #d39161;
border-top: solid #08d301 thin;
border-bottom: solid #08d301 thin;}

p.breadcrumbs a:link {color: #3659f1;}

p.breadcrumbs a:visited {color: #3659f1;}

p.breadcrumbs a:hover {color: #43d55c;}

.currentpage {color: #e9f01d;}

span.separator {color: #c91ad3;
font-size: .9em;}

.bold {font-weight: bold}

h1 {font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif ;
color: #009966;
font-size: 140%;
font-weight: bold;
font-style: normal;
font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;}

h2 {font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;
color: #009966;
font-size: 130%;
font-weight: bold;
font-style: normal;}

h3 {color: #6a4723;
font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;
font-size: 120%;
font-weight: bold;
font-style: normal;}

h4 {color: #00;
font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;
font-size: 110%;
font-weight: bold;
font-style: normal;}

h5 {color: #00;
font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;
font-size: 105%;
font-weight: bolder;
font-style: normal;}

h6 {color: #00;
font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;
font-size: 100%;
font-weight: bold;
font-style: normal;}

img {border: 4px #c58240 solid;}

a:link {color: #ff;
text-decoration: underline;}

a:visited {color: #80;
text-decoration: underline;}

a:hover {color: #e87d3b;
text-decoration: underline;}

div#navbar {font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;
font-size: 180%;
font-weight: bold;
text-align: center;
background-color: #F0F0D6;
font-weight: bold;
padding: 10px;
text-decoration: none;
margin: +20px;
border: #61bb11 solid;}

#navbar ul li a:link {color: #6a4723;
display: inline;
text-decoration: none;}

#navbar ul li a:visited {color: #d58543;
display: inline;
text-decoration: none;}

#navbar ul li a:hover {color: #27cb5d;
display: inline;
text-decoration: none;}

#navbar a.current {border-right: none ;
text-decoration: none;}

#navbar ul li {margin: 0px;
padding: 20px;
list-style-type: none;
display: inline;
text-decoration: none;}

#navbar ul {margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;}

div#header {padding: 2%;
text-align: center;
background-color: #e0ffe7;
color: #00;
margin-bottom: 20px;
border: #61bb11 solid}

div#footer {padding: 2%;
text-align: center;
clear: both;
background-color: #ff;
color: #fffaf0;
border: #61bb11 none;}

div#maincontent {padding: 2%;
text-align: left;
margin-right: 22%;
margin-left:  22%;
background-color: #ff;
margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-top: 0px;
}

div#leftcolumn {padding: 2%;
float: left;
text-align: right;
background-color: #F0F0D6;
width: 17%;
cursor: auto;
border: #61bb11 solid;
}

div#rightcolumn {padding: 2%;
float: right;
text-align: left;
background-color: #F0F0D6;
width: 17%;
cursor: auto;
border: #61bb11 solid;
}


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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread James O'Neill

Joseph:  Interesting. Do you have something that I can reference for this? Thierry: I will take a look at that tonight. Thanks guys!On 11/15/05, 
Joseph R. B. Taylor <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
As a reminder, at this point you cannot safely apply widths to any
elements that have a border, padding or a margin.  In the case you needto apply width adn one of the others mentioned, safest best is to inserta nested div/span with the padding applied etc to break it up.

This has long since been a point of confusion for many people, and thissimple remedy (although in the long term not the best) proves mosteffective with todays browsers.Joe Taylor

http://sitesbyjoe.comThierry Koblentz wrote:>James O'Neill wrote:I am having problems with a menu that is similar to the Alistapart's>>hybrid menu. I can not get the width to be consistantly even with the
>>rest of the site and it is not workig in IE or Opera. It works fine>>in Firebird. I have been beating my head against this for quite a>>long time.It seems that absolutely positioned widths do not behave as I expect
>>them. Oi!http://twitch.sharkpork.com/_work/Freedom/>>
>>"Help me Obi-wan you are my only hope">>
Did you give this one a try?>http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp
>It is a bit moe accessible.>
>Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com>>**>The discussion list for  
http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>**
**The discussion list for  
http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See 
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**

-- __"Bugs are, by definition, necessary. Just ask Microsoft!"
www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work)
www.arionshome.com (Personal)www.freexenon.com (Consulting)__
Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox 
http://www.getfirefox.comMaking a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standardshttp://www.maccaws.org/
Web Standards Project
http://www.webstandards.org/Web Standards Grouphttp://www.webstandardsgroup.org/
Guild of Accessible Web Designers
http://www.gawds.org/

Re: [WSG] Help with menu