Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
Scott Swabey - Lafinboy Productions wrote: The building codes analogy is one I often use myself, but as pointed out already, it does fall flat when asked for the governing bodies that are policing the web. When faced with a client/agency/designer that doesn't (want to/need to) understand the 'technical' aspects (bandwidth, ease of maintenance, accessibility, cross UA compatibility, 'standards' compliance, etc) then a certain amount of licence has to be applied to the explanation and reasoning for adopting standards. If that involves making a comparison to a standard in their field of business then so be it. But if that comparison is inaccurate or outright misleading (your site will fall foul of regulations by some mythical central authority) you may be hurting your case more than helping it. What if they check with other people (so this other guy says the page will be against the law) and are told that there is no indication of this happening? You may as well go completely overboard and tell them that they're likely to get sued http://accessify.com/2005/12/legal-advice-from-automated-testing.php ... but I'm not sure if getting a contract because of FUD is the right way to go. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] how to emulate br / in xml
Hi! In our project we need to give a reasonably book-alike presentation of printed book pages on the web. We've managed to rather accurately style xml resources but for one minor (?) exception. We cannot find a way to give an arbitrary element the characteristics of the html br element. I tried to copy the features I could find from Firefox's DOM inspector Object - computed style list, but what we end up with doesn't behave accordingly. Help would be much appreciated! -- Torgny Rasmark [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Språkbanken, Göteborgs Universitet +46 31 773 45 43 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] talking points for standards
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 3:40 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] talking points for standards On 12/5/05, Ric Jude Raftis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question is, how many designers include icons and links on their sites back to W3C for XHTML and CSS? How many include an icon for Accessibility? Personally, I don't have all my sites Triple A compliant, but they do pass automated validation and I include a Statement to this effect on sites. I feel that by exposing clients and their visitors to such icons that it spreads the word about standards. It makes more people aware that they actually exist and I would encourage all designers to include such icons on their sites. I don't think those little icons/buttons are enough, though. I think an About this site page with accessibility features, explanation of standards compliance, etc. is a lot better, since it explains the quality of the code rather than just sending visitors to some cryptic validation page. None of the general public cares about whether our sites are AAA compliant, whether they follow any standards or guidelines or not. What they want is a site that works. If you buy a washing machine and it tells you This washing machine follows the AS/NZS2040 standards - do you care? Would you get out the manual and read up on the AS/NZS2040 standard? And if you do care, then probably only because you spent good money on that washing machine. The general user spends no money on a website. It works? Good. It doesn't work? Bad. These icons with AAA, W3C, HTML, XHTML on it only confuse most users. So often in usability tests I have heard users ask me: What does this mean? Not because they care about standards, but because it is something on the website that means absolutely nothing to them. Too many people are already uncomfortable using website technology, how much more terrifying do you make it by dumping technical abbreviations and standard codes onto your site? In my opinion the icons are mostly put onto the sites to make people feel better about the work they have achieved. Web Developers spent a lot of time making their sites standard compliant without anybody really noticing. By putting an icon on the site we have found a way to say to other web developers: Hey guys! I have put a lot of hard work into making my site standards compliant! Now I want people to see it. Coming back to the nice building codes analogy from earlier in this thread: have you ever seen a house with a huge sign on it: This house is standards compliant? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how to emulate br / in xml
HiYou want a line break? How about fiddling with the element's white-space attribute..HTHJamesOn 12/6/05, Torgny Rasmark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi!In our project we need to give a reasonably book-alike presentation of printed book pages on the web. We've managed to rather accurately stylexml resources but for one minor (?) exception. We cannot find a way togive an arbitrary element the characteristics of the html br element. I tried to copy the features I could find from Firefox's DOM inspectorObject - computed style list, but what we end up with doesn't behaveaccordingly. Help would be much appreciated!-- Torgny Rasmark[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Språkbanken,Göteborgs Universitet+46 31 773 45 43**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how to emulate br / in xml
Torgny Rasmark wrote:
We cannot find a way to give an arbitrary element the characteristics of the html
br element.
CSS 2.1, section 12.2 [1] states:
| Authors may include newlines in the generated content by writing
| the \A escape sequence in one of the strings after the 'content'
| property. This inserted line break is still subject to the
| 'white-space' property.
foo::after { content: \A; white-space: pre; }
plinefoo/break/p
foo { ... } will also work, but Opera is one of the only browsers (if
not the only one) to support 'content' on any element, rather than just
::before and ::after pseudo-elements.
[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/generate.html#content
--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
Donna,in another thread, someone essentially asked "why code like this", in trying to convince a friend. I don't think he's getting very good answers but at any rate, it made me think of a "problem" I'm having and I've decided to make a new thread. I've noticed that responses to your similar "dilemma" have been quite exhaustive.Is it because:1. You mentioned that I wasn't getting very good responses.2. Yours was work related, while mine had to do with a friend.3. Your name is Donna, not Bob and despite rumors to the contrary, chivalry is indeed not dead :-}In any case I'm glad you're getting such good response as it has helped me too.Regards,Bob
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
Hi Andreas, None of the general public cares about whether our sites are AAA compliant, whether they follow any standards or guidelines or not. What they want is a site that works. True and so they should have. If you buy a washing machine and it tells you This washing machine follows the AS/NZS2040 standards - do you care? Would you get out the manual and read up on the AS/NZS2040 standard? And if you do care, then probably only because you spent good money on that washing machine. No... but if I bought a washing machine that used too much water, or it started to rust when it get in contact with water I would care. Wouldn't you? The same goes for the other analogy about building a house... I do care what kind of bricks etc they use. I'm gonna have it for a long time! Same thing goes for a web site... why not get the most quality you can get (markup wise)? The general user spends no money on a website. It works? Good. It doesn't work? Bad. But do they know not everybody runs XP/IE6? Just because the site looks good on their screen... blah blah These icons with AAA, W3C, HTML, XHTML on it only confuse most users. So often in usability tests I have heard users ask me: What does this mean? Not because they care about standards, but because it is something on the website that means absolutely nothing to them. Too many people are already uncomfortable using website technology, how much more terrifying do you make it by dumping technical abbreviations and standard codes onto your site? Some people would like to know... others don't! Give them both a chance to do what they want. When you buy a car are you not interested in horsepower, economy etc? Besides... if you add the icons to your site why not send them to a page that explains before they hit the validator? In my opinion the icons are mostly put onto the sites to make people feel better about the work they have achieved. Web Developers spent a lot of time making their sites standard compliant without anybody really noticing. By putting an icon on the site we have found a way to say to other web developers: Hey guys! I have put a lot of hard work into making my site standards compliant! Now I want people to see it. Maybe or maybe not. There is also such a thing as awareness and the only way we get anywhere is by letting people know. Coming back to the nice building codes analogy from earlier in this thread: have you ever seen a house with a huge sign on it: This house is standards compliant? No... but I've seen... this house was build using only ecological construction materials or these houses are kids safe so I do see people trying to differ from others using what they have. This is funny... a couple of day ago I watch a program on TV where these politicians should try to acts as a deaf/dumb, a blind person and the wheelchair user. There was this one politician who has all the right opinions and was so focused on disabled people. Then this guy asked him this... now that you're so into all the problems and so down with the disabled people why is it I can't access your parties website Go figure Kim ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] editor
Artemis, If you're moving to Firefox then you can install the 'HMTL Tidy' extension the list have informed you of, this hopefully will help when hand-coding in the followingopen source software I'm recommending: Notepad++ http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/uk/site.htm Download http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=95717package_id=102072 HTML Tidy (based on Tidy) http://users.skynet.be/mgueury/mozilla/ Also if you need to investigate IE try installing some of these 'Add-ons' http://www.siteexperts.com/tips/hj/ts01/samples.asp Cheers, A-J
RE: [WSG] talking points for standards
Bob wrote: I've noticed that responses to your similar "dilemma" have been quite exhaustive. Bob, It may of helped you but I'm doubtful it has convinced Donna? That would be a better discussion - why with so much evidence to the contrary, can the list not convince Donna to fight the PR agency? Cheers, Alex
Re: [WSG] A floating menu that keeps folding where it shouldn't (repost)
Hi Seona I guess one reason you have had no replies is that the page does not validate. This may not be the cause of the problem, but it's a starting point (I'm not blaming, just observing) For the rest, it's difficult (read: time-consuming) to go through a 21kB CSS file to find what may be the cause of the problem. All I can think of is that it's related to the mix of left and right floats, absolute and relative positioning in your #prinav, with the ul having no width specified. Maybe IE is not expanding the container to make room for the fourth list item. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
Alex James wrote: That would be a better discussion - why with so much evidence to the contrary, can the list not convince Donna to fight the PR agency? I don't actually think it's a fight she wants to have or necessarily should undertake. Donna didn't ask us to bolster her up; she asked us for logical arguments to use as to why standards are important. It's the NFP's decision, not hers, so she doesn't bear the responsibility for it. Sometimes the best thing you can do is walk away. It's hard when it's a voluntary organisation that you started working with because you want to support their work, but you can only fight the good fight for so long when it's not your living. You can lead a client to knowledge, but you can't make them think! cheers, and good luck to you, Donna mark nitpick class=grammar id =AlexIt may have helped, not It may of helped/nitpick. Grammar is a standard we should care about too... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] getElementById() always returns null
Dear All,
Let you know why this problem is coming. Actually I am
a bit busy with my work, if not I would have sent the
cause.
Regards,
Malla
--- Ben Wong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's because the code is being executed before the
tags with the
matching ids are created.
On 12/6/05, Chris Lamberson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Through foresight, i already know this will be a
very pitiful question to
real web designers, so bear with me.
I was having some trouble finding out why,
whenever I call for
document.getElementById(id), it returns null (even
if there is a valid
id-matching element). Consider something simple,
like this:
html
head
titleJavaScript Testing/title
style type=text/css media=screen
a { font: normal 24px Trebuchet MS; }
p { display: none; }
/style
script type=text/javascript
var toggle =
document.getElementById('toggle');
var onoff =
document.getElementById('onoff');
toggle.onmouseover = function() {
onoff.style.display = 'inline';
}
toggle.onmouseout = function() {
onoff.style.display = 'none';
}
/script
/head
body
a id=toggle href=#Hover toggle/a
p id=onoffHello world!/p
/body
/html
Sorry I don't have a live example. The point is
that the getElementById()
calls for some reason appear to return null, as if
they didn't find
anything. Thanks, any help is appreciated!
--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
**
The discussion list for
http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting
help
**
__
Enjoy this Diwali with Y! India Click here
http://in.promos.yahoo.com/fabmall/index.html
__
Enjoy this Diwali with Y! India Click here
http://in.promos.yahoo.com/fabmall/index.html
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] talking points for standards
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: But if that comparison is inaccurate or outright misleading ... ... I'm not sure if getting a contract because of FUD is the right way to go. Which is why careful licence must be applied to the analogies used. Explaining something in terms that the listener can relate to and understand is the aim. Making the listener believe that there is much more than a similarity between the two can indeed be misleading, even wrong, and should indeed be avoided. FUD is what _should_ be removed by the use of terms and explanations that the listener can comprehend. Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
Now that is a pearl Mark! Is it copyrightLOL. Regards, Ric Mark Harris wrote: You can lead a client to knowledge, but you can't make them think! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
On 06/12/2005, at 5:32 PM, Donna Jones wrote: Thanks again for your kind note and understanding. and, very timely, Roger Johansson at 456 Berea st has covered the same topic today - Ten reasons to learn and use web standards [http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200512/ ten_reasons_to_learn_and_use_web_standards/] If thats not a set of headers for an agenda to run through with the client, then I don't know what is :) Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
You are absolutely correct Andreas. Bit the same as an Australian Safety Standard, or Certificate of Electrical Compliance and the myriad of other bits of pieces of terminology and standards that we live with every day. But if we don't educate the public, how will they ever learn. The tag soup coders certainly won't tell them! I certainly don't think it's about designers stroking their egos. If it's compliant then tell the world, the visitors but MORE importantly.tell the client! Make them proud to have the icon on their site. Regards, Ric Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: These icons with AAA, W3C, HTML, XHTML on it only confuse most users. So often in usability tests I have heard users ask me: What does this mean? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Donna Jones said: A non-profit that i've maintained the website for for 8 years or so has recently...hired a PR firm. Why do the PR firm think they should maintain the site and not you? Have they put forward any compelling reasons why they are better qualified to look after a web site? Get them to justify their position. What are the long term implications when the grant money runs out? [...] Terrence makes good points. I'm not being funny but how, after an 8 year relationship, does a PR firm have the ability to over-ride your recommendations to the NFP? Sounds to me like you're due a little more respect and some support from the NFP in your work to make sure the NFP gets a good site. My points: - Expert PR /= expert web technologist. They are not necessarily the professionals [1]. - I'd be asking why web standards are *not* important, not feeling I have to justify why they are. - A quick demo with JAWS or even just no style view in FF should fix their claims to expertise when a test page is produced. - Reference to statutory requirements: http://www.w3.org/WAI/Policy/ Also, money saved in rubbish web design from this PR firm can go to more effect work. Even if (and no disrespect meant by this) they love the PR firm's designs and don't like your own ideas they can always produce the visual design and you code it. Either way your NFP saves money. Jon Tan www.gr0w.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] [1] http://webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2005_11.html#a000590 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how to emulate br / in xml
On 12/6/05, Torgny Rasmark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In our project we need to give a reasonably book-alike presentation of printed book pages on the web. We've managed to rather accurately style xml resources but for one minor (?) exception. We cannot find a way to give an arbitrary element the characteristics of the html br element. I tried to copy the features I could find from Firefox's DOM inspector Object - computed style list, but what we end up with doesn't behave accordingly. Help would be much appreciated! How about reusing that element if that actually exactly represents what you need? As in: br xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/ ... Cheers, Anne -- Anne van Kesteren http://annevankesteren.nl/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] A floating menu that keeps folding where it shouldn't (repost)
Also make sure you look at css drop down examples at www.alistapart.com . I think there's stuff about using position:relative or z-index to get it going right. Buddy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bert Doorn Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 4:21 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] A floating menu that keeps folding where it shouldn't (repost) Hi Seona I guess one reason you have had no replies is that the page does not validate. This may not be the cause of the problem, but it's a starting point (I'm not blaming, just observing) For the rest, it's difficult (read: time-consuming) to go through a 21kB CSS file to find what may be the cause of the problem. All I can think of is that it's related to the mix of left and right floats, absolute and relative positioning in your #prinav, with the ul having no width specified. Maybe IE is not expanding the container to make room for the fourth list item. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
I thought of a number of points relating to this standards issue... The icons by w3c and others are meaningless and are a problem. They need to have meaning to the reader. The average web visitor doesn't even know that the W3C exists, let alone that they make recommendations or determine structure and validity. When I first moved into the realm of writing better code (still honing skills) I didn't know what they were.In order to create meaning it has to represent actual value, ROI or benefit to users and buyers of our services. We, as developers need to be talking, not to the individual business owner but to business leaders in each segment and show them, not tell them how this will benefit them. I belong to several business forums and nowhere are you going to see a discussion of web standards and accessibility as most of these people don't know what that don't know. They all feel that how a site looks determines quality. Like it or not -- the only measure of the success of a website is the return on investment or an increase in profits or some other metric. If a business can achieve that with tag soup they are going to be happy. But most small business owners don't even consider this point. They just want a website, so they hire a firm that has websites they like to look at or that look good. We as an industry need to band together and make standards mean something that business owners can't live without. No FUD just a commitment by a segment of our industry that support web standards and that promotes the benefit to business consistently and continually. We need to stop preaching to the choir and build broad awareness that business is getting short changed but "design" firms who do website design are playing jack of all trades (although I would argue that web firms cannot be mutually exclusive to marketing). We need to create an environment that will make decision makers say to themselves, "Where can I get me a standards-based, accessible site?" This whole argument of licensing and regulation is ridiculous because like most regulations there will be segments of the industry that lobby to keep eligibility for the standards to an absolute low or argue that this standard is designed to be protectionist. Why don't we make it that the tag soup chefs have no choice but get on board by creating client demand for clean efficient code. Strictly on the topic of this thread, one point I make to clients is that the code will be easily edited by anyone in the future and will require no special software to modify and therefore cost less to maintain. I don't usually get into these discussions with clients though because my local competitors can't even make good looking tag soup -- so I win be default. That will eventually change. All the best, Jay Jay Gilmore Developer/Consultant Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real Small Business. SmashingRed Web Marketing P) 902.529.0651 E) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ric Jude Raftis wrote: You are absolutely correct Andreas. Bit the same as an Australian Safety Standard, or Certificate of Electrical Compliance and the myriad of other bits of pieces of terminology and standards that we live with every day. But if we don't educate the public, how will they ever learn. The tag soup coders certainly won't tell them! I certainly don't think it's about designers "stroking" their egos. If it's compliant then tell the world, the visitors but MORE importantly.tell the client! Make them proud to have the icon on their site. Regards, Ric Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: These icons with "AAA", "W3C", "HTML", "XHTML" on it only confuse most users. So often in usability tests I have heard users ask me: "What does this mean"? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Taking things to extremes.
If a search page were to only have one piece of Javascript attached to it (more specifically to the body-onload event) : document.F.Q.focus(); Should this be placed in a separate JavaScript file in order to make it more manageable, or just declared inline? Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Taking things to extremes.
Separation separation separation! Use the DOM an onload function and some unobtrusive javascript. I'm my experience you will always want to add more javascript. Keep behavour layer separate. Richard DonkeyMagic: Website design development http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk On 12/6/05, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If a search page were to only have one piece of Javascript attached to it (more specifically to the body-onload event) : document.F.Q.focus(); Should this be placed in a separate JavaScript file in order to make it more manageable, or just declared inline? Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS drop down box pushes down following content
Hi Barry not sure if this would be what you were after but i have just published an article about creating a DOM pagejump menu that works on all modern browsers and degrades back to a list of links if there is no javascript support. http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk/index.php?story=67. Thought it that might be of use... Richard -- DonkeyMagic: Website design development http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
If I wanted new windows in my house I'd buy from the BS Standard compliant company every time, wouldn't you ? The thing is though,if I click on the BS Standard logo it can't prove to me that the company is actually compliant , however in our industry, we as web designers can use our W3C logos to prove the point, by linking them to the validators. Some might find this argument slightly flaky as a BS Standard is an acknowledgment of quality rather than validity. The problem we have though is that until the consequences of legislation fully kick in (DDA etc) weare still being allowed to regulate ourselvesand W3C validation seems to be the only option available. So I'll continue to add W3C validation logos to my sites until an official Govt. Standard is set. Considering the UK Government bases most of its current web standards (eGIF, NHS Standards etc) on W3C recommendations, I'll hopefully be in a decent position should that ever happen. Rob O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/12/2005 16:42:46 I thought of a number of points relating to this standards issue...The icons by w3c and others are meaningless and are a problem. They need to have meaning to the reader. The average web visitor doesn't even know that the W3C exists, let alone that they make recommendations or determine structure and validity. When I first moved into the realm of writing better code (still honing skills) I didn't know what they were.In order to create meaning it has to represent actual value, ROI or benefit to users and buyers of our services. We, as developers need to be talking, not to the individual business owner but to business leaders in each segment and show them, not tell them how this will benefit them. I belong to several business forums and nowhere are you going to see a discussion of web standards and accessibility as most of these people don't know what that don't know. They all feel that how a site looks determines quality. Like it or not -- the only measure of the success of a website is the return on investment or an increase in profits or some other metric. If a business can achieve that with tag soup they are going to be happy. But most small business owners don't even consider this point. They just want a website, so they hire a firm that has websites they like to look at or that look good. We as an industry need to band together and make standards mean something that business owners can't live without. No FUD just a commitment by a segment of our industry that support web standards and that promotes the benefit to business consistently and continually. We need to stop preaching to the choir and build broad awareness that business is getting short changed but "design" firms who do website design are playing jack of all trades (although I would argue that web firms cannot be mutually exclusive to marketing). We need to create an environment that will make decision makers say to themselves, "Where can I get me a standards-based, accessible! site?"This whole argument of licensing and regulation is ridiculous because like most regulations there will be segments of the industry that lobby to keep eligibility for the standards to an absolute low or argue that this standard is designed to be protectionist. Why don't we make it that the tag soup chefs have no choice but get on board by creating client demand for clean efficient code.Strictly on the topic of this thread, one point I make to clients is that the code will be easily edited by anyone in the future and will require no special software to modify and therefore cost less to maintain. I don't usually get into these discussions with clients though because my local competitors can't even make good looking tag soup -- so I win be default. That will eventually change.All the best,Jay Jay GilmoreDeveloper/ConsultantAffordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real Small Business.SmashingRed Web MarketingP) 902.529.0651E) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ric Jude Raftis wrote: You are absolutely correct Andreas. Bit the same as an Australian Safety Standard, or Certificate of Electrical Compliance and the myriad of other bits of pieces of terminology and standards that we live with every day. But if we don't educate the public, how will they ever learn. The tag soup coders certainly won't tell them! I certainly don't think it's about designers "stroking" their egos. If it's compliant then tell the world, the visitors but MORE importantly.tell the client! Make them proud to have the icon on their site. Regards, Ric Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: These icons with "AAA", "W3C", "HTML", "XHTML" on it only confuse most users. So often in usability tests I have heard users ask me: "What does this mean"? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE link hover and Nav Div width Issues
I am currently working on a liquid format for my site. Just doing up the header at the moment. It is ok in FF but IE6 is not happy with it. I have yet to check with other browsers so the focus in on these 2 browsers at the moment. In FF I have no issues with things going whacky when I hover on links. But on IE6, when I hover on those browser icons, things gets shifted sideways. It only happens on the browser icons not the navigation's links. Another thing is that I do not need to specify a width on the navigation's div but I have to do it for IE6 and possibly Opera when I get to that browser. The problem is that if I specify a width then the navigation will not be floated nicely to the right because of I have li floated to left to display the li in proper flow. I want to be able to have the li in nav to be in one line when people choose medium and one size bigger in IE. If only IE can do without a width then it will work like what I want like in FF. http://design.sodesires.com/sodnew/header.html Please ignore a lot of that css files as they are not in used at the moment or optimised. The one to look at is layout.css, nav.css and ie-win.css If anyone has better solution for the browser icon on hover bug for IE, you have my deepest gratitude! Oh I am checking the page on Windows only now. -- Cheers : Jaime ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS drop down box pushes down following content
That is a nice script Richard. I have spent a while trying to get this one to work, I am sure its something obvious sigh http://www.compassdesigns.net/4corners/NASCAR_Champions.html Its only breaking in IE so its good old Microsoft again somewhere! Barrie North Compass Design www.compassdesigns.net ~Professional, affordable web design~ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Stephenson Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:26 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS drop down box pushes down following content Hi Barry not sure if this would be what you were after but i have just published an article about creating a DOM pagejump menu that works on all modern browsers and degrades back to a list of links if there is no javascript support. http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk/index.php?story=67. Thought it that might be of use... Richard -- DonkeyMagic: Website design development http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
The other problem with the validation logos is that they don't always mean that the page is valid. In my experience, a large number of sites with these logos don't serve valid code and fail the test that they link to. I think that this analog with the construction world is not really satisfactory as the need for, and potential repercussions of, standards and 'validity' and compliance when building a house is much greater than when just serving data. BEFORE I get shot down in flames for blasphemy, I DO think that web standards are important and I agree that XHTML should not be abused. BUT when a website fails, no-one gets injures (except maybe the mainainter if they have a violent boss :) ). I don't think that any suitable analogy can really be used for this case because the potential benefits of Semantics and good data presentation are immense and unique, but only for large data sources. There is a reason why LaTeX isn't taught to 16 year-olds in schools to do essays with, it may produce nice, accurate, readable layouts but to spend the time and effort trying to beat it into people is counter-productive. Stephen Robert O'Neill wrote: If I wanted new windows in my house I'd buy from the BS Standard compliant company every time, wouldn't you ? The thing is though, if I click on the BS Standard logo it can't prove to me that the company is actually compliant , however in our industry, we as web designers can use our W3C logos to prove the point, by linking them to the validators. Some might find this argument slightly flaky as a BS Standard is an acknowledgment of quality rather than validity. The problem we have though is that until the consequences of legislation fully kick in (DDA etc) we are still being allowed to regulate ourselves and W3C validation seems to be the only option available. So I'll continue to add W3C validation logos to my sites until an official Govt. Standard is set. Considering the UK Government bases most of its current web standards (eGIF, NHS Standards etc) on W3C recommendations, I'll hopefully be in a decent position should that ever happen. Rob O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/12/2005 16:42:46 I thought of a number of points relating to this standards issue... The icons by w3c and others are meaningless and are a problem. They need to have meaning to the reader. The average web visitor doesn't even know that the W3C exists, let alone that they make recommendations or determine structure and validity. When I first moved into the realm of writing better code (still honing skills) I didn't know what they were.In order to create meaning it has to represent actual value, ROI or benefit to users and buyers of our services. We, as developers need to be talking, not to the individual business owner but to business leaders in each segment and show them, not tell them how this will benefit them. I belong to several business forums and nowhere are you going to see a discussion of web standards and accessibility as most of these people don't know what that don't know. They all feel that how a site looks determines quality. Like it or not -- the only measure of the success of a website is the return on investment or an increase in profits or some other metric. If a business can achieve that with tag soup they are going to be happy. But most small business owners don't even consider this point. They just want a website, so they hire a firm that has websites they like to look at or that look good. We as an industry need to band together and make standards mean something that business owners can't live without. No FUD just a commitment by a segment of our industry that support web standards and that promotes the benefit to business consistently and continually. We need to stop preaching to the choir and build broad awareness that business is getting short changed but design firms who do website design are playing jack of all trades (although I would argue that web firms cannot be mutually exclusive to marketing). We need to create an environment that will make decision makers say to themselves, Where can I get me a standards-based, accessible! site? This whole argument of licensing and regulation is ridiculous because like most regulations there will be segments of the industry that lobby to keep eligibility for the standards to an absolute low or argue that this standard is designed to be protectionist. Why don't we make it that the tag soup chefs have no choice but get on board by creating client demand for clean efficient code. Strictly on the topic of this thread, one point I make to clients is that the code will be easily edited by anyone in the future and will require no special software to modify and therefore cost less to maintain. I don't usually get into these discussions with clients though because my local competitors can't even make good looking tag soup -- so I win be default. That will
Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?
Lachain,
I sort of get it but...
Below are a couple of real world (my world, anyway) javascripts,
could you re-do them as per Good, then I would have an example for
reference that I could closely relate to.
These connected to a linked JS in the head:
1. a href=http://www.fotografics.it; onclick=popUp
(this.href,'elastic',500,650);return false;nbsp;powered by:
FotoGrafics/a
2. div id=homea href=# tabindex=1 onfocus=P7_trigNV
('p7NVim10') onblur=P7_trigNV() onmouseover=P7_trigNV
('p7NVim10') onmouseout=P7_trigNV()img src=as/im/v2_01.jpg
alt= width=88 height=25 id=p7NVim10 //a/div
3. body onload=P7_setNV('p7NVim10',2);P7_trigNV()
This one all alone on the page, with no linked JS in the head:
div id=copy
script type=text/javascript
var d=new Date();
yr=d.getFullYear();
if (yr!=2003)
document.write(copy; +yr);
/scriptnbsp;Cedar Tree Books
/div
Bob
Bob Schwartz wrote:
Lachlan,
By far, the most important issue facing beginners with regards to
standards is the separation of semantics, presentation and
behavioural layers into well structured, valid, non-
presentational markup; CSS and javascript, respectively, and it
sounds like you've already made significant steps toward these
goals already.
Just to be clear I've understood a concept you mention above,
could you show an example of javascript used as layered, non-
presentational markup and one that is not?
When you mix behavioural attributes within the markup, like
onclick, onmouseover, etc. or javascript: pseudo-URI schemes,
that's the behavioural equivalent of including presentational
attributes within your markup. Instead of using those attributes,
the best practice is to attach event listeners dynamically instead.
For example:
Bad:
a href=javascript:myPopup('foo.html');evil popup/a
Better:
a href=foo.html onclick=myPopup(this.href);return false;not-
so-evil popup/a
Good:
a href=foo.html id=fooNot an evil popup/a
script src=popup.js type=text/javasript
document.getElementById(foo).addEventListener(click, myPopup,
false);
or
document.getElementById(foo).onclick = myPopup;
Note: IMHO, all popups are evil and intrusive and must not be used
under any circumstances, but this is an illustration of how to make
them a little more accessible by separating the behaviour layer
from the markup layer.
For a better explanation and other techniques, see:
http://www.onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/
--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
Donna Jones wrote: ...but, yes, back to my problem child non-profit. It may be time to let it go, it is hard to see them get a poor website and pay a fair amount of money for it ... it is also hard to validate myself and get them to know that i do know what i'm doing, at least tons more than the PR firm. But thanks for saying that I didn't create the dilemma ... I'll try to take that to heart. I suspect its a pretty common situation; and, to be honest, when i first took it on, at no reimbursement, i was simply chomping at the bits to have something to do and probably felt like i should pay them for letting me do it. I've changed a bit since then! The problem here is they are paying the PR firm and not you. They probably are asking themselves -- how can unpaid person be right and a highly paid PR firm be so wrong? Lets say you went to the doctor and he claims you have XYZ and need surgery ABC . You leave the office and paid for your visit (either out-of-pocket or by insurance). You meet a friend in your local grocery store -- he says you don't have XYZ and don't need surgery ABC. He says all you have is an ingrown toe nail and you need QRS! It's painful to walk on (no accessibility), but your foot this looks, smells and acts like a foot (a website) -- so why shouldn't I do QRS (accessibility) instead of XYZ? It's all about perception and where your money goes. Money clouds judgment -- especially when you don't have any knowledge about the issue at hand! So you're fighting a battle (for accessibility and standards) with people who are going to automatically differ to the people they think the experts are (PR firm). You mention above that you hate to see them pay a fair amount of money to get a poor website. Same thing happened to me (at least in my opinion) in the story I told before. I decided to walk away for the sake of my sanity and my feelings. So ask yourself a question -- should I continue or is my time here done? Non-profits are so much easier to get along with when they know how much your time is really worth. I can't recall who said that you should bill your non-profits so they at least know how much money your spending on them. I totally agree with this statement and I believe this is normal business practice anyways. Usually, you can say you spent $10,000 of my time last year -- can you please consider that a donation in that amount and at least get yourself in a program/donor material/donor thank you/etc as well as some respect. It's easy to stomp all over someone when you are ignorant on the subject... Sorry, if I don't sound all to encouraging...my advice is think it over and think in the terms of what is good for you. Do I have to pull my hair out maintaining and updating crappy code that I didn't get to write or have any input on? Best, .Peter -- Peter J. Farrell :: Maestro Publishing http://blog.maestropublishing.com Rooibos Generator - Version 2.1 Create boilerplate beans and transfer objects for ColdFusion for free! http://rooibos.maestropublishing.com/ - Member Team Mach-II - Member Team Fusion! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
Robert O'Neill wrote: If I wanted new windows in my house I'd buy from the BS Standard compliant company every time, wouldn't you ? Well I dunno? I am in Canada and I am assuming this might be the same as the Canadian Standards Association (CSA). In North America BS stands for BullS#it. so your comment fails to communicate to me fully what you mean. The thing is though,if I click on the BS Standard logo it can't prove to me that the company is actually compliant , however in our industry, we as web designers can use our W3C logos to prove the point, by linking them to the validators. A better comparison is the Better Business Bureau. Most people (in participating countries) know who the BBB is because the organization lobbies the public and consumers to educate and inform consumers about its members and its mission. It even hunts downs and goes after business who use their logo without authorization or membership. Some might find this argument slightly flaky as a BS Standard is an acknowledgment of quality rather than validity. The problem we have though is that until the consequences of legislation fully kick in (DDA etc) weare still being allowed to regulate ourselvesand W3C validation seems to be the only option available. So I'll continue to add W3C validation logos to my sites until an official Govt. Standard is set. Considering the UK Government bases most of its current web standards (eGIF, NHS Standards etc) on W3C recommendations, I'll hopefully be in a decent position should that ever happen. Rob O. Rob, I don't think legislating how businesses decide to build websites is of any value or has any place, as they don't have any impact on the public at large, if a business wants to build a crap site, much like hanging a sign that no one can understand, it is, and should be, their right to make whatever they want. If governments wish to set out policy for contractors building sites for and with the government then go for it. I don't really have a problem with the W3C logos per se, except we cannot expect them to have any impact on anyone other than the already converted. If you are placing them there as some hope to convince a business owner to switch to you because you comply with some unknown standard --you are going to waste bytes and bandwidth. All I was suggesting is that the industry create meaning in the buttons for business by marketing standards to business and not to one another.
Re: [WSG] A floating menu that keeps folding where it shouldn't (repost)
Thanks for the advice, guys. I'll have a look into it all and see what I can do. Or maybe I'll just try and convince my boss that it's not too long before we completely redesign the site, so we should just wait and redo it properly then. ;) Cheers, Seona.
[WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
On 07/12/2005, at 4:13 AM, Jay Gilmore wrote: I don't really have a problem with the W3C logos per se, except we cannot expect them to have any impact on anyone other than the already converted. If you are placing them there as some hope to convince a business owner to switch to you because you comply with some unknown standard --you are going to waste bytes and bandwidth. All I was suggesting is that the industry create meaning in the buttons for business by marketing standards to business and not to one another. Personally, I don't think the logos Do It - they are too techie and Joe Average doesn't see what they mean. Lets apply the KISS principle - I think we should come up with a new scheme, and my first suggestion for a button is the words 'Made to Standard' , in a colour scheme to match the site. This button should link to an 'about this site' page, rather than validate the page (because thats techie and Joe Average will just go 'Wha???' when they reach the results). Include a way to validate the calling page on the About This Site page, for the really interested but the main content should be to ramble on about how the site meets standards and the benefits that gives. I wouldn't suggest that we have a standard text for that page, because the search engines wouldn't like it, but a standard set of headers to expand on could be useful :) I think coming up with a standard wording on the button is an excellent idea, because Joe Average will start to recognise it across the web. OK, maybe a couple of choices - but some 'standardisation' is important. Thoughts? warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems http://elysiansystems.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS drop down box pushes down following content - SOLVED
Position:absolute; ... in the right place of course Barrie North Compass Design www.compassdesigns.net ~Professional, affordable web design~ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barrie North Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:45 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] CSS drop down box pushes down following content That is a nice script Richard. I have spent a while trying to get this one to work, I am sure its something obvious sigh http://www.compassdesigns.net/4corners/NASCAR_Champions.html Its only breaking in IE so its good old Microsoft again somewhere! Barrie North Compass Design www.compassdesigns.net ~Professional, affordable web design~ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Stephenson Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:26 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS drop down box pushes down following content Hi Barry not sure if this would be what you were after but i have just published an article about creating a DOM pagejump menu that works on all modern browsers and degrades back to a list of links if there is no javascript support. http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk/index.php?story=67. Thought it that might be of use... Richard -- DonkeyMagic: Website design development http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS drop down box pushes down following content
Here are some excellent resources 1. http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ 2. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dropdowns/ (original version) 3. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/taminglists/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barrie North Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:45 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] CSS drop down box pushes down following content That is a nice script Richard. I have spent a while trying to get this one to work, I am sure its something obvious sigh http://www.compassdesigns.net/4corners/NASCAR_Champions.html Its only breaking in IE so its good old Microsoft again somewhere! Barrie North Compass Design www.compassdesigns.net ~Professional, affordable web design~ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Stephenson Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:26 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS drop down box pushes down following content Hi Barry not sure if this would be what you were after but i have just published an article about creating a DOM pagejump menu that works on all modern browsers and degrades back to a list of links if there is no javascript support. http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk/index.php?story=67. Thought it that might be of use... Richard -- DonkeyMagic: Website design development http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] talking points for standards
From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] have you ever seen a house with a huge sign on it: This house is standards compliant? No, but washing machines, fridges and cars are all now displaying stickers that advise of their efficiency in terms of an industry and government agreed star rating scheme. Maybe we need a content vs page weight ratio measurement with star ratings to emphasise the greater efficiency of standards based page/site creation? -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
Peter Williams wrote: From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] have you ever seen a house with a huge sign on it: This house is standards compliant? No, but washing machines, fridges and cars are all now displaying stickers that advise of their efficiency in terms of an industry and government agreed star rating scheme. Maybe we need a content vs page weight ratio measurement with star ratings to emphasise the greater efficiency of standards based page/site creation? A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it wrong will cost them, I'm sure that they will soon mend their ways. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
On 12/6/05, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it wrong will cost them, I'm sure that they will soon mend their ways. I'm pretty sure that this is the only thing that has worked in every other industry. People don't listen until the victims (in this case those suffering from inaccessible websites) start pressing lawsuits. This could be a double edged sword, though. What if the client messes up a website you deliver and the user sues both you and the client? Would you like to be responsible for someone else messing up your code? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
Christian Montoya wrote: On 12/6/05, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it wrong will cost them, I'm sure that they will soon mend their ways. I'm pretty sure that this is the only thing that has worked in every other industry. People don't listen until the victims (in this case those suffering from inaccessible websites) start pressing lawsuits. This could be a double edged sword, though. What if the client messes up a website you deliver and the user sues both you and the client? Would you like to be responsible for someone else messing up your code? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** In the UK I think you are OK. You have provided an Accessible service/product to the Company but they are delivering an inaccessible service to the End user. The people who might have to worry are Web Hosts and Service Providers. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
Peter Williams wrote: 1 star for content to markup ratio 1 star for validation of markup and css These two should be able to be automated, just like the w3c validator. 1 star for accessibility 1 star for semantic markup 1 star for ? suggestions from the audience required. These three are probably hard/impossible to assess programatically. 5 stars is the best. And who would award the stars? Or are you thinking of a self-assessment scheme like the W3C? Hmm...let me think of the plethora of sites I've seen that claim WCAG AAA and are nowhere near even A (e.g. having alt=image on each image, thus passing automatic validation)... Let the market regulate itself. Let standards-compliant markup sites take over because of their benefits actually manifesting themselves (easier to maintain, faster, etc). We don't need yet another badge...imho of course. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
From: Patrick H. Lauke Peter Williams wrote: 1 star for content to markup ratio 1 star for validation of markup and css Let the market regulate itself. Let standards-compliant markup sites take over because of their benefits actually manifesting themselves (easier to maintain, faster, etc). We don't need yet another badge...imho of course. It's not yet another badge, it was a way to show compliance in a way that average people could relate to. As a response to the charge that the W3C buttons and validator links are too techy and people business people don't get it. -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
IMO the way forward is not to let others fight your fights (disabled vs bad site owners) but to pick up the glove and fight back yourself... together with others. I think Lea's idea about a badge is not bad. I came to think of the Dogme Manifesto (wonder why) and maybe something in that direction would be fine. Instead of The camera must be hand-held it could be something like...I followed best practice (to my knowledge), the site conforms to 508, separation of ...(strict html, css), blah blah. I think if such a thing should have any value it need something official... Christian Montoya wrote: On 12/6/05, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it wrong will cost them, I'm sure that they will soon mend their ways. I'm pretty sure that this is the only thing that has worked in every other industry. People don't listen until the victims (in this case those suffering from inaccessible websites) start pressing lawsuits. This could be a double edged sword, though. What if the client messes up a website you deliver and the user sues both you and the client? Would you like to be responsible for someone else messing up your code? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] talking points for standards
Stephen Stagg: A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it wrong will cost them, I'm sure that they will soon mend their ways. Wow. Isn't one of the arguments for web standards that getting it wrong will cost you? Obviously not enough in your estimation. I do believe that standards and accessibility are beneficial but that's a question that each individual, designer and business should decide for themselves. No one has the right to force them to conform [1]. In my opinion such we know what's good for you arrogance only harms the standards movement. Regards, -Nigel [1] http://nigelduckworth.com/publishing/?p=3 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
Ok. let's just take a step back and put this all in perspective: We already have a rating system with A - AAA conformence and the pretty badges to go with it. In Australia we have HREOC, and we know there's been a successful test case, which was widely publicised. Who really pays attention to the badges? Site users or other developers? And do they make the site more accessible, more usable? no. Is there any evidence to suggest that a site receives more traffic as a result of these badges? Do users actually seek out these sites? Are the badges useful? really? surely an accessibility page on the site is more informative and helpful/useful/clear... to those who are interested. We work this way because it's best practice and the right thing to do; it's faster and more efficient, we're good people (for the most part), who care about quality, accessibility, usability etc. surely you're not doing it for the elephant stamp? lisa -Original Message- From: Patrick H. Lauke To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: 7/12/05 9:37 Subject: Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards Peter Williams wrote: 1 star for content to markup ratio 1 star for validation of markup and css These two should be able to be automated, just like the w3c validator. 1 star for accessibility 1 star for semantic markup 1 star for ? suggestions from the audience required. These three are probably hard/impossible to assess programatically. 5 stars is the best. And who would award the stars? Or are you thinking of a self-assessment scheme like the W3C? Hmm...let me think of the plethora of sites I've seen that claim WCAG AAA and are nowhere near even A (e.g. having alt=image on each image, thus passing automatic validation)... Let the market regulate itself. Let standards-compliant markup sites take over because of their benefits actually manifesting themselves (easier to maintain, faster, etc). We don't need yet another badge...imho of course. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
Personally, I don't think the logos Do It - they are too techie and Joe Average doesn't see what they mean. i like the approach of this site that uses text links(footer) in the overal style of the site http://www.monc.se/work/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
The whole deal about putting buttons on websites we make for clients is in my humble opinion quite retarded. You're directing traffic straight out of your clients website and to a page where they go Wha? All of a sudden you lost the user. Put those damn buttons on your own webpage if you absolutely have to show everyone just how much you care about web standards. I assume that if you're a webdesigner (or webprogramer or some sort of company) you've got an informative page on your site where potensial clients may read the benefits of building webpages with standards in mind and why you are the right person/company to do so. What we do not need is another worthless button/badge to put on the webpages we (actually I mean you, because I don't put those buttons everywhere) make. No matter how we tell average people about web standards we can't do it with a button, they'll just go Huh?. They have no posibility to relate to it unless they read a 2000 words long article about it and truly understand why this is so important for some people. Even if they realize that web standards is important for some people, they might be too selfish or ignorant that they won't give a rats ass about it. Your clients need to hear that they'll save money and give users a better experience while viewing his/hers pages. They don't need to hear that they may or may not put a button on their page if they successfully make a website that passes XHTML validation. If you absolutely want to tell people about webstandards write to your local newspaper or something like that, just don't do it on the property of your clients. Regards Vincent Hasselgård Peter Williams wrote: From: Patrick H. Lauke Peter Williams wrote: 1 star for content to markup ratio 1 star for validation of markup and css Let the market regulate itself. Let standards-compliant markup sites take over because of their benefits actually manifesting themselves (easier to maintain, faster, etc). We don't need yet another badge...imho of course. It's not yet another badge, it was a way to show compliance in a way that average people could relate to. As a response to the charge that the W3C buttons and validator links are too techy and people business people don't get it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?
Bob Schwartz wrote:
Below are a couple of real world (my world, anyway) javascripts, could
you re-do them as per Good, then I would have an example for
reference that I could closely relate to.
These connected to a linked JS in the head:
1. a href=http://www.fotografics.it;
onclick=popUp(this.href,'elastic',500,650);return false;nbsp;powered
by: FotoGrafics/a
The most unobtrusive version of this one is simply:
a href=http://www.fotografics.it;powered by: FotoGrafics/a
No script required. You won't get a new window for most users, only for
those that explicitly request it themselves. Otherwise, try this article:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/popuplinks/
2. div id=homea href=# tabindex=1
onfocus=P7_trigNV('p7NVim10') onblur=P7_trigNV()
onmouseover=P7_trigNV('p7NVim10') onmouseout=P7_trigNV()img
src=as/im/v2_01.jpg alt= width=88 height=25 id=p7NVim10
//a/div
Those function names suggest that this was generated with a WYSIWYG
editor. That's never a good idea.
It depends on the purpose of the functions, but if they're simply
changing presentational issues (which is what they're commonly used
for), you could use a:hover and a:focus pseudo-classes in CSS to style them.
If not, then you need to find a way to access the a element (either
using a class, an id or some other method and then attach the methods.
var a = ... // get the element.
a.addEventListener(focus, P7_trigNV, false);
(make sure you omit the parenthesis from the end of the function name.
don't use P7_trigNV(), it won't work as exptected)
Unfortunately, that won't work in IE unless you use a DOM 2 patch script
to add support for it like I do, but the script I wrote and use isn't
quite ready, as it still suffers from memory leaks and a few other small
limitations.
a.focus = P7_trigNV; works in all browsers, you can use that instead.
You shouldn't need to pass the id of the image to the function, you have
access to the a element from the event handler, so you just need to get
it's child image element.
Since I'm guessing all this function actually does is swap the image,
you don't need JS, just use CSS image rollovers. There's many
techniques available, try google.
3. body onload=P7_setNV('p7NVim10',2);P7_trigNV()
function init() {
P7_setNV('p7NVim10',2);
P7_trigNV()
}
Then use either of these to attach it:
document.addEventListener(load, init(), false);
(won't work in IE or firefox without a patch)
or
window.onload = init;
(non-standard, but widely supported. Limited to a single function.)
You could also look up the addEvent() script.
This one all alone on the page, with no linked JS in the head:
div id=copy
script type=text/javascript
var d=new Date();
yr=d.getFullYear();
if (yr!=2003)
document.write(copy; +yr);
/scriptnbsp;Cedar Tree Books
/div
p id=copy© 2005 Cedar Tree Books/p
No script (or entity reference) required.
--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2005 10:15 AM To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards We work this way because it's best practice and the right thing to do; it's faster and more efficient, we're good people (for the most part), who care about quality, accessibility, usability etc. surely you're not doing it for the elephant stamp? Could not have put it better. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
I think there is still a mentality of any of those awards/certified/compliant buttons just being a click stealer.Remember those web award badges you could stick on your site with pride in the early 90's - until you realised that it was only there to get users to click off your site? I believe the results should be left to speak for themselves. Tailor your argument to your client. Find examples in the same / similar industry that use standards well, and show them what they're missing. Mention incidents where lawsuits are brought against large companies for not providing an accessible annual report, or the legal issues of being an inaccessible government site. Show case studies of loading times, bandwidth savings, savings in design changes. Mention that this is the latest, greatest methodology in a gradually converging environment.Choose whichever of these - or other - arguments hold the most weight for your client. I fail to see the value in a 'badge of honor'. It's rather lazy, as i can see - you're placing an icon on someone's site, without discussing the argument for the page to be accessible, or standards-friendly.Moreover, a seal of approval on an ugly, poorly designed site will show the utter lack of value of this 'certification'; a site with no touted adherence to any standards that is clean, crisp, and easy to use will get far more client approval. So - let the results speak for themselves.On 12/7/05, Vincent Johansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:The whole deal about putting buttons on websites we make for clients is in my humble opinion quite retarded. You're directing traffic straightout of your clients website and to a page where they go Wha? All of asudden you lost the user. Put those damn buttons on your own webpage if you absolutely have to show everyone just how much you care about webstandards.I assume that if you're a webdesigner (or webprogramer or some sort ofcompany) you've got an informative page on your site where potensial clients may read the benefits of building webpages with standards inmind and why you are the right person/company to do so.What we do not need is another worthless button/badge to put on thewebpages we (actually I mean you, because I don't put those buttons everywhere) make. No matter how we tell average people about webstandards we can't do it with a button, they'll just go Huh?. Theyhave no posibility to relate to it unless they read a 2000 words long article about it and truly understand why this is so important for somepeople. Even if they realize that web standards is important for somepeople, they might be too selfish or ignorant that they won't give a rats ass about it.Your clients need to hear that they'll save money and give users abetter experience while viewing his/hers pages. They don't need to hearthat they may or may not put a button on their page if they successfully make a website that passes XHTML validation.If you absolutely want to tell people about webstandards write to yourlocal newspaper or something like that, just don't do it on the propertyof your clients. RegardsVincent HasselgårdPeter Williams wrote:From: Patrick H. LaukePeter Williams wrote:1 star for content to markup ratio 1 star for validation of markup and cssLet the market regulate itself. Let standards-compliant markup sitestake over because of their benefits actually manifesting themselves (easier to maintain, faster, etc). We don't need yet anotherbadge...imho of course.It's not yet another badge, it was a way to show compliancein a way that average people could relate to. As a response to the charge that the W3C buttons and validator links aretoo techy and people business people don't get it.**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
On 07/12/2005, at 9:14 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote: We already have a rating system with A - AAA conformence and the pretty badges to go with it. It probably is 'just another button scheme' (hey, it was 6:30 in the morning!) but the concept was for Joe Average to start seeing these similar buttons across the web, and on the better sites. Hopefully a subliminal thing would happen where Jo(e) would slowly notice that a particular class of site has these buttons - the ones that are easier to use, that seem to be build *helpfully* rather than arrogantly, that get him to the point faster (because they don't have silly flash splash pages, etc). When Jo(e) is in business (s)he would eventually click on the button because (s)he wants to know *why* these sites are better, so his/her site can be like that too. Sure, XHTML/CSS/AAA buttons do that now, but the concept is to a) stay on the site and b) explain in Plain English (or appropriate local language) what the improvements the use of standards have brought to the site. Perhaps I worry too much :) Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane. Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
From: Herrod, Lisa Who really pays attention to the badges? Are the badges useful? really? surely an accessibility page on the site is more informative and helpful/useful/clear to those who are interested. We work this way because it's best practice and the right thing to do; it's faster and more efficient... I should point out that I don't use the W3C buttons on any sites, I try always to make sites comply with standards and to be functionally efficient. I wouldn't use any new rating or badge system either unless it was mandated. I think it would be amusing to see all the pretty but broken sites with no stars or 1 star though. -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
From: Vincent Johansen The whole deal about putting buttons on websites we make for clients is in my humble opinion quite retarded. You're directing traffic straight out of your clients website I'm not sure I'd word it quite that way, but I agree that sending visitors away isn't a good plan. My star rating system isn't intended to be a link away from the site. -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
From: Andreas Boehmer From: Herrod, Lisa surely you're not doing it for the elephant stamp? Could not have put it better. Agreed, but wasn't this all started by someone wanting a way to communicate the goodness of standards compliant sites to a lay audience? Wouldn't a scheme like that used for rating energy efficiency of applicances achieve that easier than the cryptic and unloved W3C buttons. -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
From: Patrick H. Lauke But the question remains: who awards these stars? Self-accreditation would obviously be futile. And who monitors that stars are rightly awarded, and not used by sites that don't meet the criteria? Hey, if there's full-time jobs being created here, I'm in... It has to be somehow enforced for it to have value. Clearly regulation of anything internet related is problematic due to its distributed nature. I'm not going to come up with a whole plan for this, I was just thinking of a way that the relative goodness of sites could be simply communicated to a non tech audience. I think the scheme (at least the implementation and enforcement) would be very impractical in the current online environment. -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
So, given that the W3C buttons enforce compliancy by returning errors if the page isn't valid, what's wrong with them again? I actually sport mine with some pride and have had several visitors comment on the fact. Sure, some of their comments have been along the lines of what are they for? and what do they do? but this just provides me the opportunity to explain the virtues of accessibility to them first hand. Win/win, I reckon. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2005 12:37 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards Peter Williams wrote: It has to be somehow enforced for it to have value. And as that's not going to happen, the star rating will be meaningless. To get back to the energy efficiency analogy, it's a situation where every fridge manufacturer would be completely free to put an official looking most energy efficient fridge EVER!!! actually generates energy and reduces the greenhouse effect on their products, and nobody would be able to do anything about it...leaving the customers more confused than anything else. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
Paul Noone wrote: So, given that the W3C buttons enforce compliancy by returning errors if the page isn't valid, what's wrong with them again? WCAG buttons don't link to any validator. And, of course, accessibility cannot be checked in any satisfactory way without *human* testing (let me just go and stick alt=image on every image in my site, so I can pass an automated checker). And passing automated validation for (X)HTML does not necessarily make a site better, as I've seen horribly non-semantic stuff that, on the surface, follows the syntax, but not the grammar, of the W3C spec (something like a triple nested table layout with lots of bolds and ems etc, which has merely been converted to XHTML by replacing table markup with lots of DIVS, b/i replaced with strong/em, and oodles of spans thrown in for good measure). -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
Lea de Groot wrote: http://www.energyrating.gov.au/con3.html Ugly stickers; Very effective program. From http://www.energyrating.gov.au/background.html Manufacturers who produce / import appliances for the Australian market are required to submit their products to an approved testing agency. So, it is effective because: - it's *enforced* (by law, I'll assume) by the government - there are *approved* testing agencies Once those two things are in place on the net, we can discuss stickers and badges... -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards
Patrick's got a good point ... but isn't this conversation just about at its end? We seem to have two camps: those for and those against. How much more do we need to talk about this stuff??? R - Original Message - From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards Lea de Groot wrote: http://www.energyrating.gov.au/con3.html Ugly stickers; Very effective program. From http://www.energyrating.gov.au/background.html Manufacturers who produce / import appliances for the Australian market are required to submit their products to an approved testing agency. So, it is effective because: - it's *enforced* (by law, I'll assume) by the government - there are *approved* testing agencies Once those two things are in place on the net, we can discuss stickers and badges... -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] editor
Ah yes, I downloaded Notepad++ the day before yesterday. Definitely a step up from mdiPad! I also downloaded the HTML-Kit editor, but it's going to take me awhile to get use to it (still trying to get use to Quanta Plus when I play in Ubuntu). Someone here also suggested StyleMaster, which I also went and got. I'm pretty anal about computer security, so I've been using Firefox for quite some time. I have the HTML Validator (based on Tidy) extension, the Web Developer Toolbar extension, the IE Tab extension, and the Link Checker, ColorZilla and MeasureIt extensions. I've been using those since before I joined the list... so I was one step ahead in that department at least lol. Thanks for the links! Artie Original Message From: "Alex James" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re:[WSG] editor Date: 12/6/2005 02:19 Artemis, If you're moving to Firefox then you can install the 'HMTL Tidy' extension the list have informed you of, this hopefully will help when hand-coding in the followingopen source software I'm recommending: Notepad++ http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/uk/site.htm Download http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=95717package_id=102072 HTML Tidy (based on Tidy) http://users.skynet.be/mgueury/mozilla/ Also if you need to investigate IE try installing some of these 'Add-ons' http://www.siteexperts.com/tips/hj/ts01/samples.asp Cheers, A-J
