Re: [WSG] Source Attribution for data tables

[Andrew Krespanis]

On 12/19/05, Terrence Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> how would/do you markup the source attribution for data tables when there
> is already a caption?

How about using the  element? You could code it as:




Summary of Key Indicators




Source: Foo Corp 2005



  ... table content ...



The  is always displayed at the bottom of the table and can
also be used in a 'scrolling content, fixed header+footer' table
setup.

hth,
Andrew.

Re: [WSG] WCAG1.0 guideline 8.1

[Christian Montoya]

On 12/19/05, Focas, Grant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts regarding WCAG1.0 Guideline 8.1:
>
> Make programmatic elements such as scripts and applets directly accessible
> or compatible with assistive technologies [Priority 1 if functionality is
> important and not presented elsewhere, otherwise Priority 2.]

I think this is referring to, for example, sites with interactive
flash that is made accessible by being compatible with screenreaders,
resizable, etc. Without the flash the site loses the "fun
interactivity," so just providing a text alternative is not enough.
It's nice to make the interface actually work with assistive
technology.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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Re: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma

[Samuel Richardson]

If you have to have that many fixes in place for a page that is that 
simple then your doing something wrong.



Paul Noone wrote:


Cheers all. I know there's a lot to wde through but most of the fixes,
widths and relative positions in place were put in to fix other problems in
the first instance.

As you say, getting rid of the clearfix solves that particular problem but
causes others. Definitely a clearing problem then.

What's bugging me is that it was all working just fine until recently.
Now...what the hell did I change? Will keep slogging away at it.

I've closed the input tags and all validates again. Thanks.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Bert Doorn
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 3:49 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma



Paul Noone wrote:
 


Problem:
http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/index.php?module=News&id=cntnt0
1&cntn
t01action=detail&cntnt01articleid=8&cntnt01returnid=11

The Site Updates div gets pushed way down the page. And I've got no 
idea why/ Strangely all is well in IE (with all the hacks in place I'd
   


hope so!).

There's a lot of css to wade through, but as far as I can tell, your
clearfix class is the cause of the problem.  Removing that class (in Firefox
dev toolbar, to test my theory) stops it dropping down, although it causes
problems elsewhere.

With so many divs, classes and id's that's about the only thing I can figure
out.

Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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RE: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma

[Paul Noone]

Got it. It was the clearfix class applied to the content div directly above
which contained no floated items.

I'm sure something else has broken now but that's for another day.

Thanks again.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Paul Noone
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 4:11 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma

Cheers all. I know there's a lot to wde through but most of the fixes,
widths and relative positions in place were put in to fix other problems in
the first instance.

As you say, getting rid of the clearfix solves that particular problem but
causes others. Definitely a clearing problem then.

What's bugging me is that it was all working just fine until recently.
Now...what the hell did I change? Will keep slogging away at it.

I've closed the input tags and all validates again. Thanks.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Bert Doorn
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 3:49 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma



Paul Noone wrote:
> Problem:
> http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/index.php?module=News&id=cntnt0
> 1&cntn
> t01action=detail&cntnt01articleid=8&cntnt01returnid=11
> 
> The Site Updates div gets pushed way down the page. And I've got no 
> idea why/ Strangely all is well in IE (with all the hacks in place I'd
hope so!).

There's a lot of css to wade through, but as far as I can tell, your
clearfix class is the cause of the problem.  Removing that class (in Firefox
dev toolbar, to test my theory) stops it dropping down, although it causes
problems elsewhere.

With so many divs, classes and id's that's about the only thing I can figure
out.

Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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RE: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma

[Paul Noone]

Cheers all. I know there's a lot to wde through but most of the fixes,
widths and relative positions in place were put in to fix other problems in
the first instance.

As you say, getting rid of the clearfix solves that particular problem but
causes others. Definitely a clearing problem then.

What's bugging me is that it was all working just fine until recently.
Now...what the hell did I change? Will keep slogging away at it.

I've closed the input tags and all validates again. Thanks.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Bert Doorn
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 3:49 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma



Paul Noone wrote:
> Problem:
> http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/index.php?module=News&id=cntnt0
> 1&cntn
> t01action=detail&cntnt01articleid=8&cntnt01returnid=11
> 
> The Site Updates div gets pushed way down the page. And I've got no 
> idea why/ Strangely all is well in IE (with all the hacks in place I'd
hope so!).

There's a lot of css to wade through, but as far as I can tell, your
clearfix class is the cause of the problem.  Removing that class (in Firefox
dev toolbar, to test my theory) stops it dropping down, although it causes
problems elsewhere.

With so many divs, classes and id's that's about the only thing I can figure
out.

Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma

[Bert Doorn]

Paul Noone wrote:

Problem:
http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/index.php?module=News&id=cntnt01&cntn
t01action=detail&cntnt01articleid=8&cntnt01returnid=11

The Site Updates div gets pushed way down the page. And I've got no idea
why/ Strangely all is well in IE (with all the hacks in place I'd hope so!).


There's a lot of css to wade through, but as far as I can tell, 
your clearfix class is the cause of the problem.  Removing that 
class (in Firefox dev toolbar, to test my theory) stops it 
dropping down, although it causes problems elsewhere.


With so many divs, classes and id's that's about the only thing I 
can figure out.


Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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Re: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma

[Samuel Richardson]

Why are you declaring position : relative; on regular divs (that should 
already be set to that?)


Same with max-width : 100% on the #pagewidth, lots of unneeded styles here.

I can't see exactly what it is off the top of my head, my advice would 
be to pull the widths and floats off the div's then rebuild them one by 
one and see if you can fix it that way.


Samuel


Paul Noone wrote:


Problem:
http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/index.php?module=News&id=cntnt01&cntn
t01action=detail&cntnt01articleid=8&cntnt01returnid=11

The Site Updates div gets pushed way down the page. And I've got no idea
why/ Strangely all is well in IE (with all the hacks in place I'd hope so!).

This looks like a float/clearnace problem to me but I can't seem to nail it.

I've spent too much time on this problem already by hacking away in FF's
live CSS window but to no avail. Which leadds me to think the problem may be
in the structure.

If anyone would like to cast a fresh set of eyes over it I'd appreciate it.

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


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Re: [WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma

[Samuel Richardson]

Fix your validation to start with, that might help narrow it down a bit, 
might be missing a close tag or something..



Paul Noone wrote:


Problem:
http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/index.php?module=News&id=cntnt01&cntn
t01action=detail&cntnt01articleid=8&cntnt01returnid=11

The Site Updates div gets pushed way down the page. And I've got no idea
why/ Strangely all is well in IE (with all the hacks in place I'd hope so!).

This looks like a float/clearnace problem to me but I can't seem to nail it.

I've spent too much time on this problem already by hacking away in FF's
live CSS window but to no avail. Which leadds me to think the problem may be
in the structure.

If anyone would like to cast a fresh set of eyes over it I'd appreciate it.

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


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[WSG] Dropped DIV dilemma

[Paul Noone]

Problem:
http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/index.php?module=News&id=cntnt01&cntn
t01action=detail&cntnt01articleid=8&cntnt01returnid=11

The Site Updates div gets pushed way down the page. And I've got no idea
why/ Strangely all is well in IE (with all the hacks in place I'd hope so!).

This looks like a float/clearnace problem to me but I can't seem to nail it.

I've spent too much time on this problem already by hacking away in FF's
live CSS window but to no avail. Which leadds me to think the problem may be
in the structure.

If anyone would like to cast a fresh set of eyes over it I'd appreciate it.

--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

[Richard Czeiger]

Hey John,

I think you're right on both counts...
Yes, in order for this to be effective the more professionals who 
contribute, the better it will be.
And yes, absolutely, it's not about stating "this is the ONLY way you can do 
this" but presenting a set of choices.


I look forward to seeing the next stage  ;o)

R


- Original Message - 
From: "John Allsopp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz


Richard,


I don't know, Sam...

I mean, we're not forcing someone to use these patterns. But let's  face 
it, they're patterns because lots of people use them.




exactly. These patterns exist already. Its not about saying "you
should do these things in this way" rather "over time, when solving
this kind of problem, the following conventions have emerged"


For example:

previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 next

look familiar?
Google and almost every multi-page set of results uses this. I'd  call it 
a convention. We're using the word 'pattern'.



very nice example - there are actually two patterns here - a
"navigation strategy" (how to allow users to conceive of and move
around a set of information) and apage architecture pattern, how to
present that strategy to the users. There might even be an
interaction pattern lurking in there too if you look closely enough.


What's the best way to mark this up?
Well, I'd hazard a quess that this was an ordered list.
But then there's those two at the beginning and end
How are they best semantically marked up?
And what CSS is best used to effectively display them?


at this point, we get into suggested solutions. There is often going
to be more than one common solution, (note again this is about
capturing current practice, rather than dictating the "one true
way"). The pattern captures these solutions, and discusses the pros
and cons of using them. The developer still needs to make a choice in
the context of their project, and then implement the pattern.



What I'm saying is that instead of:
a. trying to figure it out for yourself (which at the VERY best is  time 
consuming), or

b. Cut'n'pasting someone else's dodgey table-based code

... you could go to this site and, knowing that this is the Best  Practice 
method, use that bit of code.


I'd just pluralize Best Practices, and I think you've got  agreat
example here

Hang on! Oh yeah, the standards community has already started doing 
something like this with hCard via MicroFormats, right?

Thing is, I think the idea could be applied to more patterns.


Yes, microformats are certainly patterns - what I term (for now) data
patterns, by and large. WebPatterns are more general than µf, in part
because the µf crew have specifically decided to focus on one aspect
of patterns, at least for now.

You never know, it might end continually re-occurring debates on  mailing 
lists (like those I mentioned in my first post).


or at least move them to a wiki :-)

Thanks for the great ideas

j





John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
support forum ::  http://support.westciv.com
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher

Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com


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Re: [WSG] Site check: Noteworthy.com

[Thierry Koblentz]

Christian Montoya wrote:
> On 12/19/05, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I'm almost done: http://www.tjkdesign.com/clients/noteworthy
>> 
>> I'm wondering if this is the correct markup for this:
>> http://www.tjkdesign.com/clients/noteworthy/templates.asp
>> Should I use a table instead? It seems that I need some headings and
>> that I'm "cheating" with the first DL in there.

> You have multiple columns, each with its own heading. Table, please.

That's what I thought. I'll use a table then.

Thanks,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

[John Allsopp]

Kat,

Keep in mind I am just a student,


of course then we'll discount everything you have to say by 40% :-)

but isn't something that describes it at site level more a  
framework rather than a pattern?


I'd say that the difference between a framework and a pattern is that  
a framework is a fully worked, reusable solution to a problem (or at  
least the foundations of one). As you'll know, but perhaps some of  
the readers of the list might not, the term is commonly used in  
object oriented programming to refer to a class library that can be  
used to build applications. Rails (of Ruby on Rails) is a framework  
for working with Ruby (a programming language). If we were to use the  
term "framework", we'd be overloading the term in ways that are very  
confusing.


From Wikipedia "A design pattern isn't a finished design that can  
be transformed directly into code ; it is a description or template  
for how to solve a problem that can be used in many different  
situations. ".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_pattern_%28computer_science%29

Isn't a pattern usually a description of how to solve generic  
complex issues, such as dynamic binding?


In the context of OOAD, yes.

But suppose your problem is to have a frequently updated set of  
discrete messages, which users can subscribe to, to inform them of  
changes to the status of their account. It seems that while this is  
quite different from kottke.org, it fits the pattern of a blog. We  
coould legitimately call this "a description or template for how to  
solve a problem that can be used in many different situations". BTW,  
I think the term template here is very tricky, overloading the  
concept of reusable code chunks, like DreamWeaver (or Style Master)  
templates. I recommend avoiding it like the plague in the discussion  
of patterns to avoid people understanding patterns in the same, very  
limited, sense.


But an academic course page can't be used in a e-commerce store.  
It's quite specific for a particular area.



So you have two patterns. But both of them might fall within a class  
of patterns, which in this case I call "site patterns" (that's  
because any pattern within the set shares some common aspects). There  
are other classes of pattern, and importantly types of patttern -  
architectural, navigation strategy, data and more.


Again from Wikipedia, "a Framework can be considered as the  
processes and technologies used to solve a complex issue. It is the  
skeleton upon which various objects are integrated for a given  
solution."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Software+framework


The problem is that this leaves out the aspect of frameworks that  
these processes and technologies are implemented in a programming  
language, typically as class libraries, top form the basis of new  
applications




So the description for the academic course page is more skeleton  
like which allowed integration with other various objects, and thus  
more framelike?


Point out to me where I have gone wrong.


If you get the chance, follow up some of the articles in my original  
post about patterns. I feel that after some not inconsiderable time  
thinking about this problem domain, the pattern paradigm is  
appropriate, and could potentially be very important as web  
development matures into a fully fledged discipline.


Thanks for the excellent thought provoking post. Straight to the top  
of the class :-)



john

John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
support forum ::  http://support.westciv.com
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher

Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com


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Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

[John Allsopp]

Kevin,


dosnt ted drakes standardista rollyo search thingy sorta do this?


I'd suggest rollyo is a great example of a framework, which of course  
uses existing search, page and page content patterns.


john

John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
support forum ::  http://support.westciv.com
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher

Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com


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Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

[John Allsopp]

Richard,


I don't know, Sam...

I mean, we're not forcing someone to use these patterns. But let's  
face it, they're patterns because lots of people use them.




exactly. These patterns exist already. Its not about saying "you  
should do these things in this way" rather "over time, when solving  
this kind of problem, the following conventions have emerged"



For example:

previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 next

look familiar?
Google and almost every multi-page set of results uses this. I'd  
call it a convention. We're using the word 'pattern'.



very nice example - there are actually two patterns here - a  
"navigation strategy" (how to allow users to conceive of and move  
around a set of information) and apage architecture pattern, how to  
present that strategy to the users. There might even be an  
interaction pattern lurking in there too if you look closely enough.



What's the best way to mark this up?
Well, I'd hazard a quess that this was an ordered list.
But then there's those two at the beginning and end
How are they best semantically marked up?
And what CSS is best used to effectively display them?


at this point, we get into suggested solutions. There is often going  
to be more than one common solution, (note again this is about  
capturing current practice, rather than dictating the "one true  
way"). The pattern captures these solutions, and discusses the pros  
and cons of using them. The developer still needs to make a choice in  
the context of their project, and then implement the pattern.




What I'm saying is that instead of:
a. trying to figure it out for yourself (which at the VERY best is  
time consuming), or

b. Cut'n'pasting someone else's dodgey table-based code

... you could go to this site and, knowing that this is the Best  
Practice method, use that bit of code.


I'd just pluralize Best Practices, and I think you've got  agreat  
example here


Hang on! Oh yeah, the standards community has already started doing  
something like this with hCard via MicroFormats, right?

Thing is, I think the idea could be applied to more patterns.


Yes, microformats are certainly patterns - what I term (for now) data  
patterns, by and large. WebPatterns are more general than µf, in part  
because the µf crew have specifically decided to focus on one aspect  
of patterns, at least for now.


You never know, it might end continually re-occurring debates on  
mailing lists (like those I mentioned in my first post).


or at least move them to a wiki :-)

Thanks for the great ideas

j





John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
support forum ::  http://support.westciv.com
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher

Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com


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Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

[John Allsopp]

Samuel,

I think you'll find their are too many variables in a website to do  
this easily. Plus you'll never convince designers to stick to those  
set layouts :D


of course, it's not all or nothing. The more people who help build  
this body of knowledge, the better it will be, and the more people  
who use it, the better web solutions in general will be


Also, it really isn't about "layouts" - much more about page  
architecture and data models than presentation. The outline language  
I'll post soon makes this much clearer (also, the word "patterns" is  
somewhat misleading, because we initially think of visual design)


thanks

john


John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher

Web Essentials web development conference :: http://we05.com

WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org


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Re: [WSG] Site check: Noteworthy.com

[Christian Montoya]

On 12/19/05, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm almost done: http://www.tjkdesign.com/clients/noteworthy
>
> I'm wondering if this is the correct markup for this:
> http://www.tjkdesign.com/clients/noteworthy/templates.asp
> Should I use a table instead? It seems that I need some headings and that
> I'm "cheating" with the first DL in there.

You have multiple columns, each with its own heading. Table, please.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

[John Allsopp]

Paul,


Love the idea.


thanks


I don't think it should be a replacement for many things
which are best learnt through hard expereince, but rather a 7 steps to
success guide for building a standards-based website.


things should not be hard simply for the sake of it. We need to  
distinguish the set of skills and knowledge that professional  
developers really need as a foundation to the discipline of web  
development from stuff that just happens to be hard because we  
haven't worked it out yet.



Sure, you could include best practice code samples, particularly for
off-page techniques etc. But I don't think providing baby steps for  
every
eventuality is the answer. That, in itself, has the potential for  
creating

lazy beginners.


Its not so much a matter of baby steps as a detailed understanding of  
the problems we find ourselves solving over and over again, coupled  
with suggested solutions. In order to use this effectively,  
developers will still need to have a great deal of understanding of  
what they are doing in technical and architectural domains. The fact  
that patterns are widely used in computer science and originated in  
Architecture suggests that they certainly don't make solving complex  
problems trivial, rather they help make the process more efficient,  
and hopefully give rise to better solutions in future


Thanks again,

john

John Allsopp

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Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com


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[WSG] WCAG1.0 guideline 8.1

[Focas, Grant]

Hi,

I’m wondering if anyone has any thoughts regarding
WCAG1.0 Guideline 8.1:

 

Make programmatic elements such as scripts and applets directly
accessible or compatible with assistive technologies [Priority 1 if
functionality is important and not presented elsewhere, otherwise
Priority 2.]

 

My thoughts are that it is redundant because you simply should
not put important functionality that is not presented elsewhere in a script or
applet.

In fact Guideline 6.3 says this (although ‘usable’
may mean different things to different people):

 

6.3
Ensure that pages are usable when scripts, applets, or other programmatic
objects are turned off or not supported. If this is not possible, provide
equivalent information on an alternative accessible page. [Priority 1]

 

Grant Focas

 




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Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

[John Allsopp]

Richard,

Actually, it would be great if we could have something like this  
which would form a 'toolkit' of sorts where we can take 'developer- 
authorised' code snippets and put them in our pages. Such as  
finally having a collection of code so we don't have to ask:  
"What's the most semantic and valid way of marking up addresses?"  
and such.


that's certainly one of the aims of the project - but it is important  
to distinguish patterns from templates - a template is a one size  
fits all, "use this bit of code to solve this problem" approach that  
is often too inflexible to provide real world solutions.


But, a standardised reusable semantics would be a great benefit to  
all which could come from this. I discuss this in my original article


http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html

This would save a lot of time, especially for CSS learners / new-to- 
standards folk.


Semantically marked up Photo Gallery? Go to the Photo Gallery  
section and choose from sevral layouts, all given the thumbs up by  
CSS Samurais and such out there.


Best way to do breadcrumbs (once and for all)? Sure check out the  
Navigation section.


It would be very useful if it really captured the problem, and  
suggested solutions to aspects, along with a discussion of those  
solutions. Yes, people probably just want the code to paste in, and  
there would be examples which they could use in that way, but for  
more complex problems, as I have mentioned earlier, itss just not  
flexible enough,


thanks for the thoughts,

john



etc...

What do you think?
R

- Original Message - From: "John Allsopp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 2:34 PM
Subject: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz


Hi all,

Some of you might have read my recent article, WebPatterns and
WebSemantics

http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html

In a nutshell, a pattern is a "a problem which occurs over and over
again … and … the core of the solution to that problem". When we
build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just
very little work has been done trying to capture and document them.
That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do.

The first big step here is the "PatternQuiz"

http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?p=4

the aim of which is to explore existing patterns in web development.
I've started with site level patterns.

I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the
patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and
contribute your thoughts and experience

john

John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
support forum ::  http://support.westciv.com
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher

Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com


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John Allsopp

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Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

[John Allsopp]

Richard,

Martijn van Welie's been hacking away at something like this for a  
bit - check it out  :o)

http://www.welie.com/patterns/index.html


indeed he has. I devote some space in the original webpatterns  
article to discussing the strengths and weaknesses of what Martijn  
has done.


There are three shortcomings I see

1. its not collaborative and I feel the domain is too big, with too  
many specialties for one person to be able to develop a pattern  
language in this way
2. There is no real organizing principle - essentially it's a  
catalogue not a "language". I'll be posting my outline for the  
structure of the webpattern language soon - its structured and  
hierarchical
3. It's not generative - it doesn't capture the interrelationships  
between patterns (complex patterns like sites are made up of others  
like pages, which in turn are made up page sub parts and so on).


I do detail this in the original article,

http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html

thanks

john

John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher

Web Essentials web development conference :: http://we05.com

WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org


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RE: [WSG] Whither IE for the Mac

[Paul Noone]

"You'll probably want to archive a copy or two now for testing purposes" 

Why on earth would I want to do that? :)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Dennis Lapcewich
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 10:51 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Whither IE for the Mac


Microsoft is officially halting distribution of Internet Explorer for the
Mac at the end of next month. You'll probably want to archive a copy or two
now for testing purposes...

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RE: [WSG] IE float quest -SOLVED

[Geoff Pack]

Tee,

I think you are making things complicated for yourself. You don't need 
conditional comments or the IE7 script just to get column widths to match 
across browsers.

The trick to taming the box model problems of IE is to never set width and 
(horizontal) padding for the same element. If you want padding, set it on a 
nested element, or set margins directly on all children of the element.

When I made my suggestion, I wasn't just guessing - I saved the file locally 
and changed the width and the gap disappeared. I wasn't meaning it to be a 
complete fix, just to show the cause. Removing the width is good too. 
Personally, I would just set the width of #content2 to match the rounded 
corners, remove the padding, and set margins (but no widths) on the headings, 
paras and the form inside  #content2. Sorry I wasn't clearer in my last post. 
Might have saved you some effort.

cheers,
Geoff

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of tee
> Sent: Monday, 19 December 2005 9:53 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] IE float quest -SOLVED
> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 19, 2005, at 1:40 AM, Geoff Pack wrote:
> 
> >
> > Tee,
> >
> > I suspect the problem is the IE box model. You have set a 
> width and  
> > padding for #formWrapper.
> >
> > Increasing the width of the #container by 20px, which is 
> the amount  
> > of padding on the #formWrapper, seems to fix the problem.
> >
> > #container { width: 825px; ...}
> >
> >
> 
> Hi Geoff, it doesn't quite work unfortunately, adding 25px to the  
> #container creates other problem for footer and the extra white  
> background for #content width.
> 
> I managed to solve the problem by eliminating the widths in certain  
> areas and with a IE conditional comments.
> 
> http://sl.lotusseeds.com/request3.html
> 
> Still have a minor problem to sovle at the bottom of the form, where  
> a gap appears when browser browser gets scroll.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestin anyway!
> 
> tee
> 
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RE: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

[kvnmcwebn]

 >When we build 
> sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very 
> little work has been done trying to capture and document them.


dosnt ted drakes standardista rollyo search thingy sorta do this?


-Kevin MacMahongail 

(pronounced macmonagle-sort of:)


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[WSG] Whither IE for the Mac

[Dennis Lapcewich]

Microsoft is officially halting distribution of Internet Explorer for the
Mac at the end of next month. You'll probably want to archive a copy or two
now for testing purposes, as well as to use with sites like the Proximus
wireless "access" point at Javapolis last week that wouldn't let anybody in
unless they were using IE. This had more than a little to do with the
silence of my sites over the last week, as well as the paucity of reports
from what was a quite interesting show for those who were there. Poor
wireless access (the IE requirement was not the only problem) meant
relatively few people were able to chat about or report from the show in
real time.


Putting such blatantly bad design on display in front of an audience of
2000 alpha geeks, almost every one of whom could probably explain in
intimate detail exactly what Proximus did wrong, is not exactly the
smartest viral marketing a company might do. In fact, that's an idea. Next
year let's do a reverse keynote where the CEO and CTO of Proximus have to
stand in front of the convention and listen to everyone in the audience
tell them how to fix their broken system. It used to be that only internal
users suffered through such brain damage and poor design; but with web apps
everyone gets to see just how incompetent your team really is. Hmm, there's
another idea. How about a mutual fund that makes investment decisions by
analyzing a company's public web applications to figure out which companies
hire the pointy-haired and which don't?

Source:   http://www.ibiblio.org/xml/

M$ Source:
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/internetexplorer/internetexplorer.aspx?pid=internetexplorer





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RE: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

[Paul Noone]

I see a pattern forming. ;)

We do love our definitions on this list. FWIW I think a framework is what
we're after, which may just include links to real world solutions that are
standards based.

An awesome under-taking. I'd love to see it happen.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kat
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 10:19 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz


> In a nutshell, a pattern is a "a problem which occurs over and over 
> again . and . the core of the solution to that problem". When we build 
> sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very 
> little work has been done trying to capture and document them.
> That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do.
>
>  I've started with site level patterns.
>
> I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the 
> patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and 
> contribute your thoughts and experience
>

Gday,

Keep in mind I am just a student, but isn't something that describes it at
site level more a framework rather than a pattern?

 From Wikipedia "A design pattern isn't a finished design that can be
transformed directly into code
; it is a
description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many
different situations. ".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_pattern_%28computer_science%29

Isn't a pattern usually a description of how to solve generic complex
issues, such as dynamic binding?

But an academic course page can't be used in a e-commerce store. It's quite
specific for a particular area.

Again from Wikipedia, "a Framework can be considered as the processes and
technologies used to solve a complex issue. It is the skeleton upon which
various objects are integrated for a given solution."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Software+framework

So the description for the academic course page is more skeleton like which
allowed integration with other various objects, and thus more framelike?

Point out to me where I have gone wrong.

Kat




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Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz

[Kat]

In a nutshell, a pattern is a "a problem which occurs over and over  
again … and … the core of the solution to that problem". When we  
build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just  
very little work has been done trying to capture and document them.  
That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do.


 I've started with site level patterns.

I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the  
patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and  
contribute your thoughts and experience




Gday,

Keep in mind I am just a student, but isn't something that describes it 
at site level more a framework rather than a pattern?


From Wikipedia "A design pattern isn't a finished design that can be 
transformed directly into code 
; it is a 
description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in 
many different situations. ".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_pattern_%28computer_science%29

Isn't a pattern usually a description of how to solve generic complex 
issues, such as dynamic binding?


But an academic course page can't be used in a e-commerce store. It's 
quite specific for a particular area.


Again from Wikipedia, "a Framework can be considered as the processes 
and technologies used to solve a complex issue. It is the skeleton upon 
which various objects are integrated for a given solution."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Software+framework

So the description for the academic course page is more skeleton like 
which allowed integration with other various objects, and thus more 
framelike?


Point out to me where I have gone wrong.

Kat




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RE: [WSG] to many links, was narrowing the gap

[kvnmcwebn]

paul and samuel, 
thanks for the sound advice, i will put it to good use.
I just realized that basically the home page is a site map right now!
-best
kvnmcwebn


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RE: [WSG] to many links, was narrowing the gap

[Paul Noone]

The client will *always* come back with items they've not considered until
later and they will *always* see them as having enough importance to warrant
being part of the main menu structure.

Navigation is a beach and its elements can become as numerous as the grains
of sand that accumulate in the delicate areas of your SpeedosTM.

You need to insist upon a brief list of primary menu items for the sake of
appearance and ease of navigation. If properly defined these should be
intuitive enough not to warrant displaying all the child categories for that
section in the first instance.

>From what I can see there are already more than enough navigation links on
the site. If the "parent & toddler" link has other items under it then I
would simply use a bullet menu on its own page for sub-navigation.

Better yet, I would be reducing the homepage down to just the H3s and using
them as section pages which contain secondary navigation.

If they're inflexible on this point then you can style your H3s to have the
submenus hidden initially and then display on click. This doesn't require
javascript or flyouts. Most, if not all, of it can be done with pure CSS and
a smidgen of server-side scripting.

Take a look at http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au for an example of the
dynamic menus I'm referring to. In this case I've actually got a third level
nested as well but you don't need to see any of them until you click
through.


--
Paul A Noone
Webmaster, ASHM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 9:28 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] to many links, was narrowing the gap


"The change below worked for me.


.mainleft ul {
margin-top: 0px;"



thanks paul that simplifies it,

also
i always get stuck with these crazy navition schemes.
The client signed of on this layout with different content then came back
with loads more subcategory links then he had originally. Its almost
overwhelming, i think that another level of navigation might be called for,
that is- categories to sub categories with a location filter as well. I dont
want to use drop downs.

Anyone have anythoughts on this?



example html

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/final6.htm


css
http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/index3.css

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/nav.css


-best
kvncwebn


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Re: [WSG] to many links, was narrowing the gap

[Samuel Richardson]

What are you serving that site off? a 14.4k modem?

The site looks like it should be broken into sections anyway, you've 
dedicated half the front page to navigation which is far too much, and 
far too intimidating. I would break the site into those top level 
headings (childcare, personal help & support), with the current sub 
links under those. If they want a further level under that then add them 
to the new top level heading homepages above.


Then to appease the client, offer to build a sitemap page (which is good 
for SEO anyway) that contains all the links to all the sections of the 
site at once, dedicate the entire page layout to this (like a tree 
layout). Make the link to that sitemap quite prominent.


After writing all this out the site is still loading(!)

Samuel



kvnmcwebn wrote:


"The change below worked for me.


.mainleft ul {
margin-top: 0px;"



thanks paul that simplifies it,

also
i always get stuck with these crazy navition schemes.
The client signed of on this layout with different content then came back
with loads more
subcategory links then he had originally. Its almost overwhelming, i think
that another level of navigation might be called for, that is- categories to
sub categories with a location filter as well. I dont want to use drop
downs.

Anyone have anythoughts on this?



example html

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/final6.htm


css
http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/index3.css

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/nav.css


-best
kvncwebn


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RE: [WSG] narrowing the gap between h3 and ul-help

[kvnmcwebn]

"Negative margins will always come back to haunt you later :D"

I suppose I was cutting corners using them...its just that sometimes 
they seem to save a lot of hassle-probably because i dont 
have a deep enough understanding of document flow and such. 

thanks
kvnmcwebn



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[WSG] to many links, was narrowing the gap

[kvnmcwebn]

"The change below worked for me.


.mainleft ul {
margin-top: 0px;"



thanks paul that simplifies it,

also
i always get stuck with these crazy navition schemes.
The client signed of on this layout with different content then came back
with loads more
subcategory links then he had originally. Its almost overwhelming, i think
that another level of navigation might be called for, that is- categories to
sub categories with a location filter as well. I dont want to use drop
downs.

Anyone have anythoughts on this?



example html

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/final6.htm


css
http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/index3.css

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/nav.css


-best
kvncwebn


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Re: [WSG] narrowing the gap between h3 and ul-help

[Samuel Richardson]

It's usually a good idea to really have a hard think about why you are 
using negative margins, if you want things adjacent to each other then 
make sure they have zero margins/padding first rather then trying to 
override the default margins/padding that are on the element.


Negative margins will always come back to haunt you later :D

Samuel
www.seasonstravel.com.au



Paul Noone wrote:


I think your negative margins are getting the better of you. Because both
elements directly follow each other there shouldn't be any need to do
anything othet than set H# bottom and UL/LI top margins and padding to 0.

The change below worked for me.


.mainleft ul {
margin-top: 0px;


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 3:32 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] narrowing the gap between h3 and ul-help


hello all,

just tryin to narrow the distance between my h3 element and some unordered
lists.
easy enough in ff but negative margins dont seem to budge the ul in ie.

example html

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/final5.htm


css
http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/index3.css

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/nav.css


-best
kvncwebn


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RE: [WSG] narrowing the gap between h3 and ul-help

[Paul Noone]

I think your negative margins are getting the better of you. Because both
elements directly follow each other there shouldn't be any need to do
anything othet than set H# bottom and UL/LI top margins and padding to 0.

The change below worked for me.


.mainleft ul {
margin-top: 0px;


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn
Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 3:32 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] narrowing the gap between h3 and ul-help


hello all,

 just tryin to narrow the distance between my h3 element and some unordered
lists.
easy enough in ff but negative margins dont seem to budge the ul in ie.

example html

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/final5.htm


css
http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/index3.css

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/nav.css


-best
kvncwebn


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RE: [WSG] narrowing the gap between h3 and ul-help

[kvnmcwebn]

Not looked at your CSS, but...there's really no need to get out negative 
margins. Have you set the bottom margin (and padding) of the h3 and the 
top margin (and padding) of the ul (and possibly the li elements therein)?


i just set all of the above to 0 and it worked.

thanks patrick 


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[WSG] Site check: Noteworthy.com

[Thierry Koblentz]

I'm almost done: http://www.tjkdesign.com/clients/noteworthy

I'm wondering if this is the correct markup for this:
http://www.tjkdesign.com/clients/noteworthy/templates.asp
Should I use a table instead? It seems that I need some headings and that
I'm "cheating" with the first DL in there.

Also, I'd like to know if this page "holds" in most browsers/platforms:
http://www.tjkdesign.com/clients/noteworthy/Bags.asp

Best regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] positive-discrimination === not positive and IMG properties

[Ben Curtis]

RE: my htc to remove uneeded alt text after an image loads.


On Dec 15, 2005, at 12:44 PM, Derek Featherstone wrote:


On 12/15/05, Ben Curtis wrote:


The alt text is removed from the element if the image is loaded.

...

You attach it to the img selector in your css, or a more specific
selector if you don't want all images to be affected.


I can't see why you'd want it to have an effect on any images, to be
honest.


You might have missed my explanation. The alt text popup was  
obscuring the more helpful text I was providing. IE's mishandling of  
the alt text was the issue.




I would assume that the blind have their browsers set to not load
images. I may be dreadfully wrong in that assumption, but if the
images don't load then this code has no effect and the alt text
remains.


Dreadfully wrong. Well, you said it, not me :-)

"The blind" have just as many varied setups and configurations as "the
unblind."


Sure. Makes sense. But 100% of the half dozen blind people I've  
worked with had their browsers set to not load images. I'm sure in  
the larger population it's less than 100%, but surely it is most of  
this audience?




If you take away alt text, you take away *critical*
information.

Even if you target specific images via CSS selectors, I'd question
whether nor not it should be removed at all. After all - how do you
decide which ones to take away and which ones not to take away?


I take away only the alt text that is useless if the image loads.  
This is why I target by CSS selector. In my particular case, there  
are two images side by side, the first is the abbreviation for the  
second. This way, when you tab to the nav link and the abbreviated  
alt text is removed, you get the screen reader saying the full word  
instead of the abbreviation.


The fact is that in my tests with CSS on/off, images on/off,  
javascript on/off, and visual/audible browsing, removing the alt text  
of only the fully loaded images of abbreviations in Windows IE  
created the most consistently understandable navigation. Every other  
option was stymied by IE's mishandling of the alt text, and led to a  
more confusing page.


So I agree with your stance in principle. But if you stand by it  
without testing the ramifications on the users, I think it's wasted  
effort.


--

Ben Curtis : webwright
bivia : a personal web studio
http://www.bivia.com
v: (818) 507-6613




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Re: [WSG] Your email requires verification verify#iLdQ6jQBVHVxFucsCtE1pCQeEpwomkhY

[John S. Britsios]

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Re: [WSG] narrowing the gap between h3 and ul-help

[Patrick H. Lauke]

kvnmcwebn wrote:


 just tryin to narrow the distance between my h3 element and some unordered
lists.
easy enough in ff but negative margins dont seem to budge the ul in ie.


Not looked at your CSS, but...there's really no need to get out negative 
margins. Have you set the bottom margin (and padding) of the h3 and the 
top margin (and padding) of the ul (and possibly the li elements therein)?


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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[WSG] Your email requires verification verify#iLdQ6jQBVHVxFucsCtE1pCQeEpwomkhY

[james]

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are a real live human being and not a spam source.

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Re: [WSG] IE on the MAC is history

[Thomas Livingston]

On Dec 19, 2005, at 11:03 AM, Richard Stephenson wrote:


but does it mean we can stop coding for it now


There's an IE for Macs???

-
Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
www.mlinc.com


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Re: [WSG] IE on the MAC is history

[sam sherlock]

   "The current version of IE for Macs is effectively
three
years old, making it an outdated browser compared to its Windows
equivalent."

like the current version of IE on windows is not outdated?!


Richard Stephenson wrote:

  Well you have probably all heard about this already but Microsoft is
stopping support for IE on the Mac.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4542750.stm
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/internetexplorer/internetexplorer.aspx?pid=internetexplorer
http://www.webstandards.org/

but does it mean we can stop coding for it now or if not how long do
we carry on?

Richard Stephenson

--
DonkeyMagic: Website design & development
http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk
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[WSG] narrowing the gap between h3 and ul-help

[kvnmcwebn]

hello all,

 just tryin to narrow the distance between my h3 element and some unordered
lists.
easy enough in ff but negative margins dont seem to budge the ul in ie.

example html

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/final5.htm


css
http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/index3.css

http://www.mcmonagle.biz/mockup/nav.css


-best
kvncwebn


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[WSG] IE on the MAC is history

[Richard Stephenson]

Well you have probably all heard about this already but Microsoft is
stopping support for IE on the Mac.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4542750.stm
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/internetexplorer/internetexplorer.aspx?pid=internetexplorer
http://www.webstandards.org/

but does it mean we can stop coding for it now or if not how long do
we carry on?

Richard Stephenson

--
DonkeyMagic: Website design & development
http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] Degradable AHAH

[Piero Fissore]

I've developed two examples of  "Degradable AHAH",that works with and without enabled _javascript_.

 
Well done, guy! :D

[WSG] Degradable AHAH

[infopre]

Hi guys,

I've developed two examples of  "Degradable AHAH",
that works with and without enabled javascript.

First example is a dynamic include of html :
(1).
http://www.gizax.it/experiments/AHAH/degradabile/test/articolo_degradabile.html

Second example is a LiveSearch :
(2). http://www.gizax.it/experiments/AHAH/degradabile/test/liveSearch.html

I have developed a javascript function that pass form parameters in GET or
in POST.
If javascript is disabled application works correctly.

What do you think about ?

regards,

Daniele
http://www.gizax.it

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Re: [WSG] CSS Driven? ADMIN THREAD CLOSED

[russ - maxdesign]

ADMIN THREAD CLOSED

Reasons for closing: The "CSS driven" thread has gone on far too long and
has been dangerously close to flame-wars on several occasions. Time to move
on please. 

Please do not reply to this post or continue this thread. If you have a
comment or an issue with the closing of this thread, do not post to the
list. Instead, email [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Thanks
Russ


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Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?

[Michael Wilson]

Thomas Livingston wrote:

The whole basis to my point is that in our little virtual situation,  
it's too late. The client saw the design. the client wants the design  
he saw. If you could only do it with a table, you'd say no and/or  
walk.


Just or the record, / I / wouldn't walk; I'd do what I had to do. This 
decision, of course, is based on certain prerequisites:


1: The design is, in point of fact, / im-friggin-possible / to archive 
without tables (something I've yet to encounter and find highly unlikely).


2: I've confirmed this fact by having someone, more skilled than myself, 
take a stab at the layout.



I'd just use the table. I wish I didn't have too. I wouldn't  
_want to_, but in that exact situation, my superiors would not back  
me up in turning down the client/project because I was gonna have to  
use a table.


And you'd be correct in your decision. If the layout is not achievable 
without the use of tables, what choice do you have? Personally though, I 
try to make sure everything I design can be worked out using CSS. I 
don't paint myself into a corner, so to speak, unless the client leaves 
me with no alternative.


There are always exceptions to the rule, of course.

--
Best regards,
Michael Wilson

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Re: [WSG] IE float quest -SOLVED

[tee]

On Dec 19, 2005, at 1:40 AM, Geoff Pack wrote:



Tee,

I suspect the problem is the IE box model. You have set a width and  
padding for #formWrapper.


Increasing the width of the #container by 20px, which is the amount  
of padding on the #formWrapper, seems to fix the problem.


#container { width: 825px; ...}




Hi Geoff, it doesn't quite work unfortunately, adding 25px to the  
#container creates other problem for footer and the extra white  
background for #content width.


I managed to solve the problem by eliminating the widths in certain  
areas and with a IE conditional comments.


http://sl.lotusseeds.com/request3.html

Still have a minor problem to sovle at the bottom of the form, where  
a gap appears when browser browser gets scroll.


Thanks for the suggestin anyway!

tee
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RE: [WSG] IE float quest

[Geoff Pack]

Tee,

I suspect the problem is the IE box model. You have set a width and padding for 
#formWrapper. 

Increasing the width of the #container by 20px, which is the amount of padding 
on the #formWrapper, seems to fix the problem.  

#container { width: 825px; ...}


cheers,
Geoff.









> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of tee
> Sent: Monday, 19 December 2005 4:26 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: [WSG] IE float quest
> 
> 
> Greeting,
> I'd been working on solving this problem in the last three hours  
> however I can't seemed to pinpoint the cause.
> 
> In IE 6/ 5.5, my form drops to the bottom. I know this is a 
> common IE  
> bug and I was able to solve the problem in other sites by declaring  
> clear left (or both or right) or display: inline. Except this time.
> 
> This one is the perfect solution I wanted:
> http://sl.lotusseeds.com/request1.html
> and the css:
> 
> #formWrapper { clear: right; position: relative; /* declaring  
> position: relative or not doesn't seem matter to IE in this case*/
>   font: 0.82em/1.5em "Lucida Grande", Arial, Helvetica, 
> sans-serif;
>   color: #4F4F4F;
>   border: 2px solid #eee;
>   background: #F3F3F3;
>   width: 400px;
>   padding: 0px 20px 20px;
>   margin: 30px 30px 0px 10px;
> }
> 
> Except that it drops to the bottom, here is the screen shot if you  
> are a Mac user.
> http://sl.lotusseeds.com/ie.jpg
> 
> 
> So I declared 'display: inline' in the #formWrapper, it solves the  
> problem but my background color shrinks to a small square above the  
> the form in Firefox and Opera (both PC and Mac); in Safari and IE,  
> the background color completely gone.
> Here is the page.
> 
> http://sl.lotusseeds.com/request.html
> and the css:
> 
> .#formWrapper {clear: right;  display: inline;
>   font: 0.8em/1.5em "Lucida Grande", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
>   color: #4F4F4F;
>   border: 2px solid #eee;
>   background: #F3F3F3;
>   width: 400px;
>   padding: 0px 20px 20px;
>   margin: 30px 30px 0px 10px;
> }
> 
> I know when asking help from this list, a validated page and 
> css is a  
> must - well, I do have my HTML validated and the 99.8% of CSS are  
> validated too, except that I used the "-moz-border-radius" that the  
> W3C validator gave me error - hope this is acceptable :)
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> tee
> 
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Re: [WSG] IE float quest

[tee]

On Dec 18, 2005, at 11:45 PM, Bert Doorn wrote:



Seems a bit of overkill for a single rule.  I avoid hacks wherever  
possible, but if you do need one, it's better placed in the CSS  
file (e.g. with a * html hack).


Bert, I rarely use hacks for my sites and never really learn how to  
use them. IE conditional comments is the one I recently picked up and  
always try not to use it - however sometimes it seems a bit foolish  
to wasting half a day (in this particular case it has been more than  
6 hours) to try to solve a problem in IE, and I must say I am more  
than foolish in most cases when dealing with IE bugs because of my  
refusal to use hacks.
I haven't got time to look through the whole CSS file (reverse- 
engineering) to find the cause of each problem, but given you use  
exact pixel widths in many places, chances are that they aren't  
adding up (with IE's float bugs adding 3 pixels here and there).


I'd give it a bit of slack - maybe some of your problems will be  
solved by removing some of the widths.


You have raised a very point, I removed some of the widths and it's  
working now, although still not perfect. There is still gap appears  
when scroll. This looks like a whole different issue involves with  
other css declaration. I may need to post another new message for help.


http://sl.lotusseeds.com/request3.html

Thank you very much for your help!

tee
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