[WSG] netscape 4 and css

2008-03-23 Thread dwain
i have a style sheet for a site that i would like to serve a netscape 4
style sheet, but i don't know how to do it.  would someone offer advise as
to how to do this.  some sample code would be a nice touch.
dwain

-- 
dwain alford
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css

2008-03-23 Thread russ - maxdesign
Hey Dwain,

1. be aware than NN4 has appalling support for CSS so your styles will have
to be quite simple. For example, NN4 requires borders around any containers
where background colour and padding are used - in order for the background
colour to spread out behind the padded areas.

2. you will probably want to serve NN4 some CSS but then be able to
over-ride this CSS for newer browsers.

3. luckily, NN4 does not support multiple media types so you can simple
serve two CSS files via the link elements in your html document. The first
CSS file link contains a single media type = screen. The second CSS file
link contains two media types - screen, projection - which NN4 cannot
read. For example:

link rel=stylesheet href=nn4.css type=text/css media=screen /
link rel=stylesheet href=modern.css type=text/css media=screen,
projection /

4. Rules that are written in the second file that are of the same weight as
in the first file will over-ride those in the first file - because the
second file is later in the source order. For example:

nn4.css may contain:
body { color: blue; }

modern.css may contain:
body { color: red; }

NN4 will see blue text, all modern browsers that support the multiple media
type will see red text.

This is based on the the Cascade order: 4. Finally, sort by order
specified: if two rules have the same weight, origin and specificity, the
latter specified wins.
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/cascade.html#cascading-order

HTH
Russ



on 23/3/08 6:27 PM, dwain at wrote:

 i have a style sheet for a site that i would like to serve a netscape 4 style
 sheet, but i don't know how to do it.  would someone offer advise as to how to
 do this.  some sample code would be a nice touch.
 dwain





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Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css

2008-03-23 Thread dwain
thanks russ, i'll give this a try.
dwain

On 3/23/08, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hey Dwain,

 1. be aware than NN4 has appalling support for CSS so your styles will
 have
 to be quite simple.


-- 
dwain alford
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css

2008-03-23 Thread dwain
On 3/23/08, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hey Dwain,

 1. be aware than NN4 has appalling support for CSS so your styles will
 have
 to be quite simple.


when i view this site on the internet with nn4 the design breaks.  i
expected this.  nn4 sees the background png and the background images as
well even though the rest of the design breaks.

i placed netscape.css first and adg-styles.css second in meta order.  i
would expect that the same styles in both sheets would make nn4 go ga-ga,
but i get no styles at all in nn4.  i placed the same styles from the
default sheet in the netscape style sheet to work on getting nn4 to at
least accept margins, but no, nothing, nada.  now i'm really puzzled.  i'm
going to work this out.  any ideas why nn4 shows no styles, when fed the
same style sheet that breaks it on the web, locally?
dwain


-- 
dwain alford
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css

2008-03-23 Thread russ - maxdesign
Hi Dwain,

Hard to tell what is going on... Can you put a simplified version online for
us to see? Easier for people to help then  :)

Thanks
Russ


 when i view this site on the internet with nn4 the design breaks.  i expected
 this.  nn4 sees the background png and the background images as well even
 though the rest of the design breaks.
 
 i placed netscape.css first and adg-styles.css second in meta order.  i would
 expect that the same styles in both sheets would make nn4 go ga-ga, but i get
 no styles at all in nn4.  i placed the same styles from the default sheet in
 the netscape style sheet to work on getting nn4 to at least accept margins,
 but no, nothing, nada.  now i'm really puzzled.  i'm going to work this out.
 any ideas why nn4 shows no styles, when fed the same style sheet that breaks
 it on the web, locally?
 dwain
 




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Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css

2008-03-23 Thread Matijs
Hello Dwain,

Are you at liberty to elaborate on the reasons for wanting to support NN4?

Thanks!

Matijs

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 10:56 AM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 On 3/23/08, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hey Dwain,
 
  1. be aware than NN4 has appalling support for CSS so your styles will
 have
  to be quite simple.

 when i view this site on the internet with nn4 the design breaks.  i
 expected this.  nn4 sees the background png and the background images as
 well even though the rest of the design breaks.

 i placed netscape.css first and adg-styles.css second in meta order.  i
 would expect that the same styles in both sheets would make nn4 go ga-ga,
 but i get no styles at all in nn4.  i placed the same styles from the
 default sheet in the netscape style sheet to work on getting nn4 to at
 least accept margins, but no, nothing, nada.  now i'm really puzzled.  i'm
 going to work this out.  any ideas why nn4 shows no styles, when fed the
 same style sheet that breaks it on the web, locally?
  dwain




 --
 dwain alford
 The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
 for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky
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Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css

2008-03-23 Thread dwain
On 3/23/08, Matijs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello Dwain,

 Are you at liberty to elaborate on the reasons for wanting to support NN4?

 Thanks!


 Matijs


been reading zeldman's book on designing with standards.
-- 
dwain alford
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css

2008-03-23 Thread dwain
On 3/23/08, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi Dwain,

 Hard to tell what is going on... Can you put a simplified version online
 for
 us to see? Easier for people to help then  :)


http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/affordable-custom-web-site-design.html

http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/css/netscape.css

here's the page and css.

thanks,
dwain
-- 
dwain alford
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css

2008-03-23 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

dwain wrote:



On 3/23/08, *Matijs* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello Dwain,

Are you at liberty to elaborate on the reasons for wanting to
support NN4?

Thanks!


Matijs


been reading zeldman's book on designing with standards.


The latest version of NN4 came out in 1998. Zeldman's book came out in 
first edition in 2003, and at that time there may have still been some 
NN4 users out there. Nowadays, NN4 is irrelevant, unless you know for 
sure (from your website's stats) that a sizeable part of your audience 
is using this dinosaur of web browsers...


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__



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Re: [WSG] Fieldsets outside of forms. Was: Safari 3.1 and webkit-border-radius

2008-03-23 Thread Thomas Thomassen
In addition to using the dictionary, it's worth looking up how W3C uses the 
terms in relationship with the specs. http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt


While MUST and MUST NOT would be more handy, reality is grey sometimes and 
does depend on the interpretation of the author. The biggest problem however 
is that most authors never read the specs.



- Original Message - 
From: tee [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Fieldsets outside of forms. Was: Safari 3.1 and 
webkit-border-radius



Perhaps it will help the web standards if W3C to be more authoritative 
and dictatorial?


MUST NOT, MUST, ABSOLUTELY NOT, ILLEGAL TO USE, NOT ALLOWED

to replace these ambiguous MAY NOT, SHOULD, SHOULD NOT.

This way, it makes no wrong suggestion to people who are not English 
tongue and who needs to depend on English dictionary to understand the 
spec - I am speaking of me :-)


tee



Keryx's point of view seems to be dominant, I fear. Even the teacher
at my web design class seems to think that using EMs to style  citations
is valid. Yet she generally encourages web standards...   :(

Cordially,
David
--



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Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css

2008-03-23 Thread dwain
On 3/23/08, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 dwain wrote:
  been reading zeldman's book on designing with standards.


 The latest version of NN4 came out in 1998. Zeldman's book came out in
 first edition in 2003, and at that time there may have still been some
 NN4 users out there. Nowadays, NN4 is irrelevant, unless you know for
 sure (from your website's stats) that a sizeable part of your audience
 is using this dinosaur of web browsers...


i'm reading the 2nd edition from 2006.  he made a comment about how some
organizations are still using nn4 because of their apps are geared toward
nn4.  i thought i would try my hand at making sites nn4 friendly.

i do appreciate your comments though.  like i said, just experimenting.
i've been learning much about standards and document structure and
semantics, etc, from my reading and this list.

i think i'm getting the hang of all this.  i've been designing sites since
2000 when i was using go live 5 and tables.  things have really changed
since then.  i converted my art site to html and css in 2004 and i'm still
not through with the accessibility part of it.  i've got a lot of writing to
do describing art work.

cheers,
dwain
-- 
dwain alford
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] Fieldsets outside of forms. Was: Safari 3.1 and webkit-border-radius

2008-03-23 Thread Keryx Web

tee skrev:
Perhaps it will help the web standards if W3C to be more authoritative 
and dictatorial?


MUST NOT, MUST, ABSOLUTELY NOT, ILLEGAL TO USE, NOT ALLOWED

to replace these ambiguous MAY NOT, SHOULD, SHOULD NOT.


If one reads the specs these words are not ambiguous. W3C uses these 
words according to RFC2119: http://rfc.net/rfc2119.html (While typing 
this message I see that Thomas Thomassen already has referred to this RFC.)


What is ambiguous is that some older specs do not provide enough detail. 
HTML 4.01 only works since browsers emulate each other.


As for fieldsets outside of forms we have a grey area. No spec says they 
 are allowed or disallowed. There are simply no SHOULD or SHOULD 
NOT, MAY or MAY NOT phrases to guide us.


That means - in spec language - that there is no prohibition. The only 
place where we have any indication is the DTD. Which says it is allowed.


One could counter that argument by saying that this is a limitation of 
the DTD-language as such. The people who made the DTD cut a few corners 
to not make it too burdensome. However, putting FIELDSET outside of


!ENTITY % %block
  P | %heading; | %list; | %preformatted; | DL | DIV | NOSCRIPT |
  BLOCKQUOTE | FORM | HR | TABLE | FIELDSET | ADDRESS

would not be rocket science. It is doable. All it would take is to 
change this line:


!ELEMENT FORM - - (%block;|SCRIPT)+ -(FORM) -- interactive form --

Into this:

!ELEMENT FORM - - (%block;|FIELDSET|SCRIPT)+ -(FORM) -- interactive 
form --


Ergo: The only reasonable conclusion is that the spec writers did not 
intend to forbid the usage of fieldsets outside of forms.


Which leaves with the question if it is wise, i.e. good practice. 
Perhaps also the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law.


However, the comparison that was made with using tables for layout does 
not make sense. I also note that no one is quoting any research showing 
any negative effects.



Keryx's point of view seems to be dominant, I fear. Even the teacher
at my web design class seems to think that using EMs to style citations
is valid. Yet she generally encourages web standards...   :(


There is a difference. EM has clear implications for screen readers and 
othe UAs, and there are already elements available that has been made 
for quotations: q and blockquote.


Once again the comparison is wrong. The two cases are not analogous.

What I want is more like a div with a caption, for which there is no 
predefined markup. In HTML 5 I would perhaps use aside, but still have 
no way of specifying a caption. Unless HTML 5 explicitly allows the use 
of fieldsets outside of forms, or captions outside of tables (or invents 
some new markup), and specifically defines how the parsing algorithm 
should look like and how the information should be made available to the 
user by the UA.



Lars Gunther


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[WSG] INS and DEL in lists

2008-03-23 Thread Thomas Thomassen
I was working on some examples for the use of del and ins. 
http://www.thomthom.net/blog/2008/03/document-history-viewer-making-use-of-del-and-ins/

As I was working on this I wanted to mark up a list where items had been added 
and removed. That's when I realised that you can't wrap up li dt or dd in 
del or ins elements because ul, ol and dl only allows list items as 
their direct child.

The del and ins then have to be wrapped inside the list item.

ul
  liItem 1/li
  lidelItem 2/del/li
  liItem 3/li
/ul

When I hid the del using display: hidden; the list would render something 
like this:

* Item 1
*
* Item 3

Because I could wrap up the entire list item, the bullet point would still 
remain.

To me it appears illogical to not wrap the del or ins around the list items 
when you add and remove items to the list. I'm guessing it's a case where every 
scenario wasn't accounted for when the specifications was written. (Yes, I know 
that I could add an extra class to the list item that I wanted to hide, but 
it's not the point. It shouldn't be necessary.)

However, when this scenario presents itself I see it as fine to break the 
specification and mark it up like this:
ul
  liItem 1/li
  delliItem 2/li/del
  liItem 3/li
/ul

This seem to render exactly as I expect it to do in every browser I've tested.

* Item 1
* Item 3


I posted a comment about it in the W3C public HTML discussion group, hoping 
it'd be picked up and amend HTML5's specification to allow this. However, 
there's yet been any response. Is there any other place I could air this issue 
in hope of it getting heards by the authors of the next HTML specs?

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Re: [WSG] INS and DEL in lists

2008-03-23 Thread Keryx Web

Thomas Thomassen skrev:
I posted a comment about it in the W3C public HTML discussion group, 
hoping it'd be picked up and amend HTML5's specification to allow this. 
However, there's yet been any response. Is there any other place I could 
air this issue in hope of it getting heards by the authors of the next 
HTML specs?




This could also be solved if CSS allowed us to use a has content 
selector, i.e. select all LI elements that has only got DEL elements (or 
whitespace) as child elements. I know this issue has been discussed by 
the CSS WG. However, I agree that this is a content issue, rather than a 
styling issue.


I would be very surprised though, if Ian H has not *read* your 
suggestion. Some replies come a bit late, in my experience.



Lars Gunther


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Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css

2008-03-23 Thread Designer

dwain wrote:



On 3/23/08, *Patrick H. Lauke* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


dwain wrote:
  been reading zeldman's book on designing with standards.


The latest version of NN4 came out in 1998. Zeldman's book came out in
first edition in 2003, and at that time there may have still been some
NN4 users out there. Nowadays, NN4 is irrelevant, unless you know for
sure (from your website's stats) that a sizeable part of your audience
is using this dinosaur of web browsers...


i'm reading the 2nd edition from 2006.  he made a comment about how some 
organizations are still using nn4 because of their apps are geared 
toward nn4.  i thought i would try my hand at making sites nn4 friendly.


i do appreciate your comments though.  like i said, just experimenting.  
i've been learning much about standards and document structure and 
semantics, etc, from my reading and this list.


i think i'm getting the hang of all this.  i've been designing sites 
since 2000 when i was using go live 5 and tables.  things have really 
changed since then.  i converted my art site to html and css in 2004 and 
i'm still not through with the accessibility part of it.  i've got a lot 
of writing to do describing art work.


cheers,
dwain
--
dwain alford
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky
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Just for interest, I have a site which went live on November 19th 2007, 
and the stats show that 35 users have been there using NN4.


Fair enough, this number represents only 0.24% of all users ( 14,351 
unique) but my view is that, if there is an easy way to include those 
35, then that's a good thing. . .


Bob
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk





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[WSG] Web Standards in India

2008-03-23 Thread Amrinder Sandhu
 
Hello Friends

I am a web standard designer from India where there is very less awareness 
about terms like Web Standards, Usability, Accessibility  and User experience. 
I want  your help and advice as to make Web Standards known to people here in 
India. Also, I would like to know any Indians who are member of WSG so that we 
can get in touch and help India to know and follow Web Standards. 

Hope for great support from you all. I will appreciate the suggestions and 
advices from all my WSG friends.

Thanks and Regards,
Amrinder
Freelance Web Designer.
www.awayback.com



 
Blessed is he who expects nothing,  
for he shall never be disappointed.
live !!!


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Re: [WSG] Web Standards in India

2008-03-23 Thread Keryx Web

Amrinder Sandhu skrev:

Hello Friends

I am a web standard designer from India where there is very less 
awareness about terms like Web Standards, Usability, Accessibility  and 
User experience


Perhaps you could contact Navjot Pawera, Web Standards Project 
International Liaison in India?


http://www.webstandards.org/action/ilg/members/

http://www.navjotpawera.com/


Lars Gunther


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Re: [WSG] Web Standards in India

2008-03-23 Thread varun krishnan
Hi Amrinder ,

Im from India also

Do you want to start a mailing list for Web standards in India ?

regards,

Varun

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 7:59 PM, Keryx Web [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Amrinder Sandhu skrev:
  Hello Friends
 
  I am a web standard designer from India where there is very less
  awareness about terms like Web Standards, Usability, Accessibility  and
  User experience

 Perhaps you could contact Navjot Pawera, Web Standards Project
 International Liaison in India?

 http://www.webstandards.org/action/ilg/members/

 http://www.navjotpawera.com/


 Lars Gunther


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RE: [WSG] netscape 4 and css

2008-03-23 Thread Thierry Koblentz
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Designer
 Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 6:07 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css
 
 dwain wrote:
 
 
  On 3/23/08, *Patrick H. Lauke* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  dwain wrote:
been reading zeldman's book on designing with standards.
 
 
  The latest version of NN4 came out in 1998. Zeldman's book came out in
  first edition in 2003, and at that time there may have still been some
  NN4 users out there. Nowadays, NN4 is irrelevant, unless you know for
  sure (from your website's stats) that a sizeable part of your audience
  is using this dinosaur of web browsers...
 
 
  i'm reading the 2nd edition from 2006.  he made a comment about how some
  organizations are still using nn4 because of their apps are geared
  toward nn4.  i thought i would try my hand at making sites nn4 friendly.
 
  i do appreciate your comments though.  like i said, just experimenting.
  i've been learning much about standards and document structure and
  semantics, etc, from my reading and this list.
 
  i think i'm getting the hang of all this.  i've been designing sites
  since 2000 when i was using go live 5 and tables.  things have really
  changed since then.  i converted my art site to html and css in 2004 and
  i'm still not through with the accessibility part of it.  i've got a lot
  of writing to do describing art work.
 
  cheers,
  dwain
  --
  dwain alford
  The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
  for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky
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 Just for interest, I have a site which went live on November 19th 2007,
 and the stats show that 35 users have been there using NN4.
 
 Fair enough, this number represents only 0.24% of all users ( 14,351
 unique) but my view is that, if there is an easy way to include those
 35, then that's a good thing. . .

I agree. imho, if an author has time/budget/knowledge to support NN4, then why 
not?

Dwain,
If you target only NN4 and no other old browsers, then you could use JavaScript 
to sniff for DOM support and plug a LINK element.
For example, you could use something like this:

if (!document.getElementById) document.write('link rel=stylesheet 
type=text/css href=/css/v4.css /');

Then you use the media hack (as Russ suggested) or @import to prevent NN4 
from reading your other sheets (for modern browsers). 

Note that NN4 does not apply styles without JS support, so using JS to plug the 
styles sheet is OK in this case.

On the other hand, I wonder how many NN4 users browse the Web with JS on as 
there are so many scripts out there that are not old browsers friendly...
 
-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com



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Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css

2008-03-23 Thread dwain
On 3/23/08, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
  Subject: Re: [WSG] netscape 4 and css

 I agree. imho, if an author has time/budget/knowledge to support NN4, then
 why not?

 Dwain,
 If you target only NN4 and no other old browsers, then you could use
 JavaScript to sniff for DOM support and plug a LINK element.
 For example, you could use something like this:

 if (!document.getElementById) document.write('link rel=stylesheet
 type=text/css href=/css/v4.css /');

 Then you use the media hack (as Russ suggested) or @import to prevent
 NN4 from reading your other sheets (for modern browsers).

 Note that NN4 does not apply styles without JS support, so using JS to
 plug the styles sheet is OK in this case.

 On the other hand, I wonder how many NN4 users browse the Web with JS on
 as there are so many scripts out there that are not old browsers
 friendly...


thanks thierry, now i just might be able to pull this off.  i went to your
site using nn4 and it looked good, that's what i want for myself and my
clients.  i'm glad you replied.
cheers,
dwain

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-- 
dwain alford
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky


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[WSG] Flash list

2008-03-23 Thread Laert Jansen
Hello there!
Does anyone here know any good dicussion list about flash/actionscript?
Thanks a lot,
Laert


-- 
Laert Jansen
www.laertjansen.com


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Re: [WSG] Flash list

2008-03-23 Thread Krystian - Sunlust
I wanted to join up to the question, but regarding Java Script lists, can't
google any cos instead of actual lists, google lists scripts for mail lists,
lol.
Hope it's not OF.

Regards,

-- 
Krystian - Sunlust
Sunlust Designs
http://sunlust.net


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RE: [WSG] Flash list

2008-03-23 Thread Anna Vester

Hello there!
Does anyone here know any good dicussion list about flash/actionscript?
Thanks a lot, 
Laert



Laert,

Here are two Flash lists that I'm aware of:

http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders 

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Flash_tiger/

Hope this helps,

Anna Vester
http://www.veanndesign.com




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Re: [WSG] Flash list

2008-03-23 Thread Laert Jansen
Hey Anna, thanks a lot :-)

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 10:56 PM, Anna Vester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Hello there!
 Does anyone here know any good dicussion list about flash/actionscript?
 Thanks a lot,
 Laert

 

 Laert,

 Here are two Flash lists that I'm aware of:

 http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Flash_tiger/

 Hope this helps,

 Anna Vester
 http://www.veanndesign.com




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-- 
Laert Jansen
www.laertjansen.com


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