Re: [WSG] UTF-8 ,charset and Standard
UTF-8, a flavour of unicode, is an universal character set. You don't define any codepage/language for it. You just simply use whatever characters you like. This creates "Content-Type" header being "http equivalent". Content is text/html with charset UTF-8. It would be even better to send real http header with charset. In PHP it's: Note: Don't use Notepad or other Microsoft tools for UTF-8, because they tend to add unvisible "BOM marker" character at the beginning of every file. This helps them recognize UTF-8 from other files, but confuses many browsers. I use freeware "Notepad2" for UTF-8. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński osiolki.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
Does that really matter? In Firefox and IE there is a focus border anyway. IE doesn't support :focus or outlines, so there isn't much you can help. In Firefox Cursor-Mode (F7) uses small text-cursor that isn't good for bad sighted people anyway. Opera with spatial navigation always adds background on focused links. I don't know how mac browsers deal with this though. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
So, please, please, if you want to make your sites more accessible to
keyboard users, add :focus and :active rules to match your :hover rule.
ok, I will :)
a:focus {color: #346095; background-color:#fff;}
a:hover {color: #346095; background-color:#fff;}
a:active {color: #346095; background-color:#fff;}
BTW: It would be better to write:
a:focus, a:hover, a:active {color: #346095; background: #fff;}
It is simply shorter, more compact form. Some perfectionists prefer
shorthand background property, because there is slight chance that
background-color alone might not work if user stylesheet defines
background-image...
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Re: [WSG] Foreign Translations
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:30:11 -0500, Ketan Vakil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is it an okay plan to take an existing English website programmed in ColdFusion and basically duplicate it across a few other languages (French, German, Italian, Spanish) either in their own directories like /english and /espanol, or at localized domains like .com, .com.es, etc... ? What workflow issues have people run into going with this method? Updates of website will be difficult. Every change will need many times more work to update and synchronize all versions. When you forget to update one language it may stop working and you won't notice that, unless you do x times more testing. You should think about keeping only text strings in an external file and having one language-independent version of pages. I can't help with CF, but in PHP it is usually done by including a file that defines associative array (key=>value pairs being some_id=>"translated string") Do you use the ip-to-country database to do the auto redirects to localized URLs? That won't work, people may use proxies, etc. Just parse Accept-Language header (but really parse it; don't assume it to start with suitable language code). It is good to have domains or subdomains with translated versions. If you have host-based localized versions you don't need to change paths on your pages plus search engines will index all languages (they won't if you use accept-language detection alone). -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] charater sets
In UTF-8 files you can use extra characters in their "natural" form instead of HTML entities - like nbsp, shy, mdash, ndash. You may also use quotes, elipsis, etc. They take less space and are safer for string manipulations on server-side. You don't have to worry about copying and pasting from other sources (MS Word creates quotes and dashes that (formally) are incompatible with ISO-8859-1). Foreign names are preserved. There are problems, though. Many editors that claim to support UTF-8, but internally operate on strings translated to codepage, so they may lose characters not present in current system codepage. As I've mentioned in other post, Notepad, ASP Web Matrix and most likely other Microsoft text editors insert invisible BOM character to mark file as UTF-8. This character prevents DOCTYPE or XML Prolog from being recognized and makes output buffering useless in PHP4. If you heavily use UTF-8 (most notably soft hyphen) you need to check if browser can handle it (check Accept-Charset header plus serve UTF to IE anyway, because it sends meaningless headers) - if browser (bot?) can't handle UTF-8 you need to make conversion. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: Focus highlighting, was Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (30/11/04)
The problem with declaring all three in one is that IE 5 (possibly 5.5 also, can't remember which right now) for PC chokes on any declaration that contains :focus. Combining your :active and :focus rules will effectively cancel that entire declaration in dodgy old IE. oh, dodgy old IE :/ remember Opera in smallscreen mode choking on that combined rule as well, but I think that's a seperate discussion. :) Probably old version. I've tested latest and seems to parse all CSS2.1. Ofcourse styles unsuitable for SSR are ignored or lost in reformatting. Without SSR latest mobile Opera handles CSS Edge demo pages*, many literarymoose experiments and even displays CSS lines hack - http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rotatingStar.html *) can't test pure css menus, as :hover is impossible to archieve on keyboard-only browser. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Are conditional comments the way to do this?
First I'd check if that problem can be fixed so that you can keep one
stylesheet.
You might have some error in styles that some browsers ignore and other
don't.
If by "PC browsers" you mean IE, check if it isn't one of it's well-known
bugs:
http://positioniseverything.net/explorer.html
Some of them have easy workarounds.
CSS rule for IE only:
* html #foo {height: 1%;}
CSS rule for better browsers only:
*> #bar {position: fixed;}
If problems are caused by incompatible box model (do you use valid
doctype? no xml prolog?) in such case you might end up with separate
stylesheet for IE and conditional comments are right solution.
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Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
I try to explain to clients (and designers...) that user always knows where he got to - people just don't type random adresses :) Site design should already have logo and "corporate look'n'feel" so such splash screen basically has no information on meaningful content. Visitors seeking information will get annoyed and bored by splash screen, because it is not what they came for. There is also an explanation on useit.com: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530_comments.html -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Why does firefox tooltip only "TITLE" attribute and not ALT?
I am curious as to why Firefox only understands the title attribute when creating tool tips, why cant we just use ALT? ALT is for alternate content only and should be visible only when image is not. It is like and other HTML fallbacks. TITLE was created especially for tooltips. All standards-compiliant browsers stick to it. IE is the only one that tries to be "smarter". See: http://my.opera.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15784 -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash menu (was: Remote control CSS - A quick little article about lists)
Article mentions some disadvantages of Flash. I'd like to add another one, IMO biggest one: * Flash links cannot be opened in new window (ie. user has no control over it) With growing popularity of tabbed browsing this starts to be huge disadvantage, especially if Flash is used for menu. Avoid! -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Why does firefox tooltip only "TITLE" attribute and not ALT?
It's much easier to check alt attributes with the tooltip than by reading source code after all. You can install Web Developer Toolbar extension or press G in Opera. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] "Code" or "Markup"
Was CSS developed first for XSLT/XML and then applied to HTML? Or vice versa? CSS was developed for HTML. Hakon Lie, co-autor of CSS, doesn't like XSL-FO. http://people.opera.com/howcome/1999/foch.html SGML existed first and DSSSL was used to style Wow, compared to DSSSL CSS is s easy and clean. Back to code vs markup: For me "code" is reserved for languages that aspire to be turing-complete. These at least should have data storage (variables) and flow control instructions (if, loops or goto). Everything else, including XML and CSS, is data for me. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] What's "right"
hmm. ok, of course you are right. My next question is, what writing
a declaration like a#id, what is happening? Certinally don't wanna
throw out a "it works so it must be right", since it is obviously not
correct - but the question begs to be answered, why does it work? is
that in some way implying display:block?
Not at all. This is just a selector. It selects element "a" which has id
equal to "id". Only that.
Read about selectors:
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/selector.html#id-selectors
Various selectors may be joined together to select more specific element
in document.
#id and a#id basically are the same, because only one element can have
certain id, BUT each selector has its 'specificity' value which affects
cascade: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/cascade.html
a#id {color: green;}
#id {color: red;}
will be green. Not many webmasters actually know why Cascading
Style Sheets are cascading :)
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Re: [WSG] designing for the cell phone and PDA
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:15:42 -0800, Ted Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is there anyone out there that has had some success building a style sheet to make their web site look good on a pocket pc or cell phone? I'd like to add this feature to our site but I haven't had much luck. Are there any successes or failures out there? http://my.opera.com/community/dev/device/ Mobile Opera 6 uses stylesheet for media handheld and ignores styles for screen. Mobile Opera 7 fallbacks to stylesheet for screen if handheld stylesheet is not present, altough you don't have to worry about that because it only takes basic styles plus does smart reformatting so page will look good anyway. I cannot find information about Pocket IE, but AFAIR it attempts to read styles for media="all" and media="screen". If you want bare (X)HTML for all of them that should do it: You could also write stylesheet for handheld and test it on desktop Opera by pressing Shift+F11. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] designing for the cell phone and PDA
Are there any successes or failures out there? I have no idea if my attempts works in the real world, since I do not even have one of those small devices. Have only been able to test in Opera SSR on PC. I have compared PC SSR to real device. It is very close. The only thing is that mobiles use smaller fonts, so 1em is fine and don't go below 0.9em. Remember that handhelds may not have any pointing device, so don't rely on :hover and onmouseover/onclick. I've adjusted css for handhelds on: http://pornel.ldreams.net http://osiolki.net http://browsehappy.pl I also tested OpenWave. It is very simple browser, lynx-alike. One problem that I've found is that it has limit to 4kb of text in a textarea. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] No skipping to content needed?
A lot of people put an in-page anchor at the top to "skip navigation" or "skip to main content." Are there any hidden gotchas with simply putting the navigation last and positioning it first? E.g., The gotcha is that text browsers and screen readers don't understand this css. Does it negatively affect anyone's browsing experience? Yes, all those that needed 'skip' link in the first place. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] A quick breakdown of some code today
What browsers support CSS3? I'm guessing Firefox does/might. Are there others? Ofcourse there isn't a browser that supports more than little bits of CSS3. Gecko supports CSS3 selectors Opera supports CSS3 media queries Explorer supports some of the CSS3 text module (text-justify: newspaper; is quite nice) -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox screen-reader emulator
Do any of these, or any others for that matter, support aural style sheets? from that list, emacSpeak only, unless things have changed recently... Opera 7.60 for Windows has support for voice xml and some aural styles. The software: http://snapshot.opera.com Docs and tutorials: http://my.opera.com/community/dev/voice/ -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] alt or title...
alt attribute is for some elements (images, buttons), that might not be fully rendered by browsers. should be visible only when element itself is not shown. title attribute is for almost every element in html. it is supposed to give additional information. optionally visible, usually as a tooltip or on status bar. WWW -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Netscape 4 - let it die
Why do you let 8-year-old browser to stop you from making good pages? I bet that 90% of Netscape 4 users are bored webmasters ;) Whenever some good solution is mentioned hearing "but Netscape 4 doesn't support this" is unavoidable. I agree that webpages should be accessible to all - they should work without CSS and JavaScript. Personally I use @import for CSS and use object-detection to gracefully degrade pages. NN4 should be threated as a text browser. It is just too buggy to get anything better. These days web looks so bad in NN4 that one more page looking ugly in this dinosaur doesn't matter. Actually it is even better - it proves that finally user needs to upgrade. c'mon! 6 years isn't a short notice! -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Netscape 4 - let it die
Don't blame the end user for the lousy browser their employer sticks them with. Educate the employers instead. Sure, if it works - don't change it. By supporting NN4 you just keep it alive and give message to bureaucrats that it is OK browser. So make it stop working. I think that employee saying "Boss! This doesn't work!" is the best way to educate employers... -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] iframe 100%
Do you know a good way to get iframe inside messy table-based layout to stretch to 100% available height? In IE it is as simple as , but Opera is very picky about heights :( I'm trying to make hotfix for someone else's site, so mess, tables and iframe has to stay :/ I know two methods using javascript: - compute and set fixed height - find *all* parent (parents of parents, etc.) elements of iframe and give them height: 100% I rememver I've read somewhere that Opera sticks to odd CSS rule: element can have height in % only if parent element has height set, but I can't find in in W3C TR. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Changing Standard
Why using a:link ?
means that the word inside is a link
a { color:blue; text-decoration:underline; }
is the same as setting
a:link { color:blue; text-decoration:underline; }
Link is a redundant tag
No, it isn't. Think about these:
foo
bar
a {} matches both, and :link matches only the second one.
Additionally :link matches only unvisited, inavctive, nonfocused links,
but a{} sets all at once.
:link will become very important in XHTML2 where
every element can have href attribute.
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Re: [WSG] LOCAL XHTML TESTING - HOW TO DO IT?
For serious testing install web server locally. There is for example easyphp.org (and many others) that install and configure Apache, PHP, MySQL with almost one click. Then you can configure Apache to send .xhtml files as application/xhtml+xml or use PHP for that. httpd.conf: AddType application/xhtml+xml .xhtml or each file: Once you have proper content-type set browsers (except IE ofcourse) will do basic validation of document - requiring that your document is well-formed XML (XHTML). -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Reduce Page Weight
The point of putting metatags on pages is mostly for search engines.
What if I create a conditional statement on my dynamically generated
pages that print these meta tags (especially ketword and description
ones) only if it is a bot.
Maybe just forget about them altogether? Use good titles, headings and
urls.
Google doesn't care about meta at all. Inktomi is the last one that takes
them
into account and it's authors say that meta has only marginal influence on
indexing.
Is there an easy way to recognize a bot?
There is a list of robot's User-Agent strings floating around, but that's
few thousands different strings...
For less important things I check for presence of "http://"; in User-Agent,
but is incorrect in many cases! ("ia_archiver", and browsers with
addons/proxies that advertise themselves).
Apart from targetting specific User-Agent strings you might create
bot-trap in /robots.txt - use Apache mod_rewrite to handle that file with
PHP for example.
Google tips mention that bot detects if different page is sent to the bot
and to the browsers and may threat it as a cheat.
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Re: [WSG] Some links for light reading (14/12/04)
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:48:40 +1100, russ - maxdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: http://news.com.com/Mozillaaimsformobilebrowsermarket/2100-1032_3-5483683.html I'd like to note that this news is disinformative. You could think that there isn't any browser that reformats pages, zooms images and has javascript support on mobiles. There is: http://my.opera.com/haavard/journal/28 Mobile Opera supports DOM and CSS2.1, had resize on the fly first and recently greatly improved that feature. Saying Minimo is better than most browsers on mobile market or that it is innovative in any of mentioned areas is untrue, because significant share of this market belongs to Opera and Opera was inventor of all Minimo key features. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Video Files
For 30mb movies that is not a good idea. Browser will try to save whole file before sending it to application. This eliminates streaming. Not quite correct. When the QuickTime Movie is authored correctly, QuickTime plays the Video while it still downloads. You'd have to make few kb "dummy" quicktime movie that downloads another, right? -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards & Macromedia Contribute
On the Mac, Contribute uses the same (system-level) rendering engine as
Safari, which means you should not get any nasty surprises with the
layout.
Are you sure? Some time ago there was a deal between Macromedia and Opera:
http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2002/07/20020702.dml
(oh, and Apple: http://www.macminute.com/2003/09/30/opera)
Test it:
body {content: "It's Opera";}
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Re: [WSG] Site review plz
The url: http://www.azapi.com/ Reviewing the home page only. Firefox 1.0 on Win2K, dial-up connection. The page took a long time to load. Looks like one of those "if you don't have cable or ADSL we don't want your business" type of sites. I suggest converting top and bottom backgrounds to JPEG. When you specify background image, specify similar background color, too. This way modem users will have access to your white text without having to wait for images, and site will be accessible without them. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] noscript in xhtml1.0 strict
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:37:49 +0100, Nick Verstappen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Is the noscript tag not allowed anymore in XHTML 1.0 Strict? I'm trying to use it, but it does not validate. If it IS allowed, what markup should I use to make it validate? Many thanks! Ofcourse it is allowed. XHTML just enforces that noscript block element and must have block content (same with blockquote) bla is illegal, but bla is just right. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] background loading issue
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:19:48 -0600, Charles Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Chris Kennon wrote: Any suggestions on bringing the file size down? I've tried interlacing the .gif the current size is the lowest without image degradation. Just for comparison, I took the image into PaintShopPro (yes, I'm too cheap to own Photoshop right now) and thats good, because Photoshop has worst savers for JPEG and PNG I've ever seen! (even if you use Save for Web). Use JpegOptim. I've done quick'n'dirty Win32 port: http://pornel.ldreams.net/jpegoptim/jpegoptim1.2.2_win32.zip and for PNG absolute must is: pngcrush.exe -cc -reduce -rem gAMA -rem cHRM -rem iCCP -rem sRGB -d pngcrushed file.png optipng.exe -o6 pngcrushed/file.png pngcrush will remove gamma chunks from png, that may cause unpredictable results on different operating systems and optipng will squeeze few more bytes from png. Photoshop doesn't support 8bit png with alpha channel at all, but they are very very useful. PNGQuant converts 24+8 png to 8+8. Great news is that IE partially supports those - instead of making gray background it just degrades alpha channel to 1bit. all mentioned programs are open-source. link: google. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible image form buttons
SOLUTION 1: Search Problem: Doesn't work in older browsers (e.g. NN4). Eh, another good solution spoiled by this zombie. Search Forget hackish href="javascript:". Use onclick instead. To make this less evil you could put link inside . -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessible image form buttons
The problem is the input style doesn't work in all browsers. In
particular Opera and some of the Mac browsers will ignore them, if I
remember correctly.
Current version of Opera does excellent job with styling input elements.
Opera even lets you change border on checkbox elements. I haven't seen
that possibility anywhere else.
On the other hand KHTML (Safari, Konqueror) absolutely refuses to apply
any styles to input elements.
For Safari I use such trick:
div {background: darkcolor url(darkimage);}
input {opacity: 0.5; -moz-opacity: 1; background: lightcolor
url(lightimage);}
As far as I know currently it is quite safe, but it will start to cause
trouble when Opera implements opacity and/or Gecko drops -moz- variant.
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Re: [WSG] accessible image form buttons
Hmmm... I have tried to hide the border of an input field in Opera, but
it flatly refused:
input{border:0;}
This is Opera 7.23
oh, that bug. Fixed in 7.50 or 7.60...
For Opera 7.2 use:
input {border: 0 solid;}
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Re: [WSG] Semantic Mark-Up for Product Catalog
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:46:20 -0500, Michael Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Chris Kennon wrote: In the following name/value listing what would be the most semantic mark-up. Product Name: Product Number: Product Description: Product Cost: I'd probably use a definition list: My Product Product Number: 123456 Product Description: This is my product... Ain't it perty? MSRP: $1 Bazillion (will trade for 4x4 in good condition) How about a table? They're not always evil... My Product Product Number12334 Product Descriptionpretty Product Costbazillion ..and Lynx WILL render that table! :D -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic Mark-Up for Product Catalog
And please, please, if using a table remember to include row and column scope. What is the default scope? -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] question - follow, index meta tag
If I have the following on my index page, do I need to repeat it on every page at my site? Doesn't this tag appearing once send the robots forward to all the other pages? You don't need that at all. Index, follow is default behaviour and won't override robots.txt anyway. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards & Macromedia Contribute
Are you sure? Some time ago there was a deal between Macromedia and
Opera:
http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2002/07/20020702.dml
(oh, and Apple: http://www.macminute.com/2003/09/30/opera)
Not Apple. Adobe.
oops. It was supposed to be "and Adobe".
Test it:
body {content: "It's Opera";}
You what??
Opera is the only browser I know that supports replacing elements with
generated content and positioning of generated content.
BTW:
Opera misses few bits from CSS2, but has complete implementation of CSS2.1.
When I frist heard that I thought that its a paradox and it must be
untrue, but later I realized that CSS2.1 drops some quirks of CSS2 making
Opera fully compiliant.
Gecko still has very incomplete implementation of CSS2.1 Generated
Content, and even new display: properties aren't officially there yet.
--
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Re: [WSG] neat code in A9 search
there appears some funny characters. ÃÂÂ This is another Microsoft "invention" - BOM marker used to recognize UTF-8 files. ByteOrderMarker makes no sense in UTF-8. Notepad and other MS-tools silently insert it in all UTF-8 files, making them invalid. This breaks HTML validation, causes trash in some browsers and breaks PHP4 buffering... Use Notepad2 for unicode - http://www.flos-freeware.ch/notepad2.html -- regards, Kornel LesiÅski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] neat code in A9 search
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:04:48 +0100, JohnyB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: How do I remove this BOM marker once it's inserted? Damn it, it causes all my XSL transformations on Java to fail! I use PSPad (www.pspad.com), it doest it transparently (if set in preferences). alternatively you can open file as plain ASCII and delete these 3 chars. In Notepad2: switch to "UTF-8" from "UTF-8 Signature" encoding. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] neat code in A9 search
BOM is a Unicode standard. Without BOM, applications have to waste resources trying to figure character encoding. Here are some FAQs about BOM: http://www.unicode.org/faq/utf_bom.html#22 I know that. FAQ more or less confirms what I've said - BOM in UTF-8 is "Microsoft conventions for .txt files" and it may cause trouble with some protocols. Additionally BOM on network may be prohibited in some cases: "Where the precise type of the data stream is known (...) a BOM must not be used." When you send your files with Content-Type: text/html; charset: UTF-8, BOM becomes prohibited. The reason PHP breaks is because PHP does not support Unicode. Unfortunately there are many applications that require certain characters at the very beginning of file, like " -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Hover psuedo-class issues
Does anyone know of any existing (and much simpler) JavaScript libraries that enable :hover, :focus, and :active for non anchor tags for IE? http://www.xs4all.nl/~peterned/csshover.html -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Please explain use of html>#____
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:31:27 +0930, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
is a child selector:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/CR-CSS21-20040225/selector.html#child-selectors
html>#wrap means element with id=wrap inside html (but not inside other
element inside html).
If its not (or ) then it doesn't match anything in
html.
So, in this case it's CSS hack. AFAIK IE5/win ignores > and + selectors
and iterprets it as "html #wrap".
There are other variations:
Such code:
*> selector {}
hides CSS from IE6, and:
* html selector {}
hides code from everything except IE.
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Re: [WSG] Please explain use of html>#____
Kornel Lesinski wrote:
So, in this case it's CSS hack. AFAIK IE5/win ignores > and
+ selectors and iterprets it as "html #wrap".
Still trying to find out which browsers mistakenly apply this. IE5/5.5/6
seem to rightly ignore the rule. The closest I came was the star-7 hack
http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/tests/star-7/
but haven't found any reference to html>#blah type hack. Could it be a
hack that was misspelt?
Today I've ran into problems with IE5.01/win:
dt.active + dd {}
was applied to all dd elements, even changing to:
*> dt.active + dd {}
didn't help - IE5 still stubbornly saw the rule.
I have standalone IE5 on WinXP, so maybe this was the cause. Anyway - its
weird.
http://browsehappy.pl/style.css
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Re: [WSG] W3C what are they doing ?
- I doubt XHTML 2/DOM 3 will hit the main stream for a number of years (at least 5). So I wouldn't start worrying about it now. - I don't think XHTML 2/DOM 3 have be designed with developers in mind. These guys are not thinking about our immediate needs - they are thinking about the direction of the web in the future. C'mon, is great for developers. So is . -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] opera float question
Opera7 doesn't allow fieldsets to float. Bug. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Why style to IE?
If you make commercial sites you must live with the fact that it is mainly
for IE.
Loudest "f. you" I can tell to IE is Firebar:
http://hpstudios.homeip.net/Firebar.html
Usually I don't have to trash the code with conditional comments.
* html {}
and
*> {}
css hacks are enough.
I try to make pages look better in better browsers. I use 8bit PNGs with
alpha (see pngquant), which degrade in IE to 1bit alpha instead of gray
background.
I give some extra hovers or occasional background-position: fixed for wow
effect in non-IE.
Users must see that other browsers are better. So far they only see that
some sites "don't work in Firefox".
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Re: [WSG] Why style to IE?
I think it is important *not to* build&test in IE first. You have to avoid building your code on top of some IE bug/quirk. It is much less work to force IE to behave well, than making all other browsers misbehave like IE. For that matter I build and test pages for Firefox and Opera7 first (having IE (in)capatibilities in mind), and after I have desired layout I start fighting to get it working in IE. This guarantees that code for all browsers is standards-compiliant and invalid junk is only served to IEnvalid junk. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Why style to IE?
The only bug/quirk with IE that I've come across that needed my attention was the big one: box model. I prefer to use the "box in a box" sort of workaround This needs excessive divs and without IE support for '>' selector requires them additionally messed with lots of id/classes. Why serve any junk at all? To make good [X]HTML and good CSS work in bad browser. It is entirely possible to create fully standards compliant visually striking pages without using hacks Not really. It requires lots of effort or extra code to avoid buggy areas completly. Csszengarden is the only example you need of that. HTML for CSSZengarden is an absolute mess (read comment in code). Stylesheets are bit simpler because of tons of extra markup in code, but this duo is not kind you'd like to maintain on everyday basis. and even not all stylesheets are 'pure', take this one: http://www.csszengarden.com/144/144.css -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] learning CSS
I am learning CSS tricks (I know the star hack) but where can I find out
about Vicki's 'conditional comments' and Kornel's *>{} ?? Where is this
stuff documented?
http://positioniseverything.net/explorer.html
is a great resource for IE bugs and hacks.
Conditional Comments: http://www.quirksmode.org/css/condcom.html
For CSS hacks I've mentioned I'll write documentation here.
Best IMO is:
* html any_selector_here {}
because it is perfectly valid CSS that doesn't match anything in HTML.
Only IE (both win and mac) thinks that there is some element around HTML.
You can often find in my code:
#somediv {float: right;}
* html #somediv {height: 1%;}
/* see "Holy Hack" on positioniseverything.net */
Second one is used to hide CSS2/3 code from CSS1 browsers.
If you use advanced styles that may break page if not interpreted fully,
hide them like this:
*> h3 {display: run-in; margin-right: 2ex;}
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Re: [WSG] Browser Check - such inconsistencies!
Konqueror 3.0.5 Wow, amazing it works. CSS in Konq 3.0 is sooo bug ridden. "Safaried" Konq 3.3 behaves much better. IE4 - PC Ignore it. IE4 is suicidcal when it comes to CSS. All Versions of Opera If in Opera 6, you can ignore it. But if it breaks in latest Opera you have a problem. Opera 7.5 has one of the best CSS implementations around, so you should double-check your CSS against validator and specs (because CSS validator is absolutely dump in some cases :() -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] page not validating as xhtml 1.0 strict - explanation?
i know that one must put block elements inside inline elements with xhtml 1.0 strict, but this isn't the case here? paragraphs are block elements, as are s. You got this other way round. It's: inline content inside block. can go inside , but in cannot. must have inline contents. Use , eventually with display: block; -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] making money out of web standards
Separating content and layout made perfect sense to me as a programmer. XML/XSLT is good 'cos it allows me to modularize sections of a site without having to resort to server-side technologies. ...except server-side XSLT transformation, right? Because XSLT on client side is non-semantic, incompatible and hardly accessible. For the selling point: I show stylesheet switcher. Gives 'wow' effect, when client sees that webpage can be "rebuilt" with a single click. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] XSLT on client-side (was: making money out of web standards)
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:48:05 +0800, Wong Chin Shin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sorry, don't really understand what you mean by your statement below. The XSL document may not be readable but the XML can be set to be as readable and descriptive as we want it to? XML has no semantics. Your custom markup won't be compatible with anything. Without XSLT transformation to [X]HTML it is meaningless to any software. XSLT is not supported by web spiders and by many browsers. AFAIK using XSLT on client-side limits you to IE6 and Gecko browsers *only*. Everyone else gets unusable page. XSLT is a great technology, and there is one simple step to make it absolutelty compatible - transform on the server-side. If you output [X]HTML you're going to be compatible with almost every single web client out there. I think that XSLT + XML won't save much (if anything) compared to resulting XHTML. In terms of bandwidth: XML already adds markup to your data. XSLT is very verbose, and stylesheet will probably take as much as extra data it could generate. Without HTTP pipelining (in IE6) 2 small files usually load slower than one larger. XSLT gives savings when it generates lots of repetitive data, but then HTTP compression is so much better in eliminating repetition. I don't think that XSLT saves server cpu either. If you have static data you can transform it once and serve XHTML. If you have dynamic data you have to build DOM tree anyway. If you absolutely don't want to waste any cpu cycle on transformation, you can generate XML data using XHTML tags. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] XSLT on client-side (was: making money out of web standards)
Won't attempt at going any further as I don't think I'm talking about web standards at any length. XML and XSLT are W3C standards :) If you don't have server-side technologies available, then you may transform your XML using (offline) shell script and upload XHTML to server. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: stylesheet switching in IE6
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:36:26 +, Patrick H. Lauke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Erwin Heiser wrote: Ijust cracked it, IE was chocking on the lang="en" statement inside (in the XHTML code) in combination with this statement "div:lang(en)" in the style sheet. I remembered that IE doesn't suppport pseudo classes on anything but an anchor. For what it's worth, though, attribute selectors are not written like that. Sure, because they are not attribute selectors. Same document you mentioned defines lang pseudo-class: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/selector.html#lang Ofcourse IE doesn't support this either. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic markup for object dimensions/units
Any thoughts on semantic markup for object dimensions? For example works of art; height x width x depth 400mm x 800mm x 200mm I can't think of anything better than using unicode 'x' for multiplication. [X]HTML doesn't have any markup for dimensions. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Funky tags or "XHTML2 Transistional"
I'm thinking about creating my own doctype/DTD and adding some new tags. Instead of having or I'd like to simpy have tag. and have no semantic meaning, and in practice would have no meaning either, but there are some advantages: - less to write - validator can check these against dtd - getElementsByTagName I could start using XHTML2 tag :) This won't be block tag for current browers, but if it starts and ends with block elements, there will be no problem. What do you think about the idea? useful/harmful? Do you know any user-agents that won't accept such tags? or misbehave with custom dtd? Maybe I should use namespace instead of creating pseudoHTML? -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Funky tags or "XHTML2 Transistional"
First of all, current browsers don't really use the Document Type Definitions provided by the W3C website, they just look for the correct Document Type Declarations. So, they probably will recognise your DT Declaration as another junk and will probably fall back to the quirksmode (I wouldn't certanly want that). I've checked - Opera uses standrads mode for unknown doctype and Mozilla always uses standards mode for XML documents. Does anyone know about Safari? http://www.literarymoose.info/ successfully uses it's own doctype (adds tag for example) As you are refering to XHTML2, I must note that this should be served as application/xhtml+xml which isn't accepted by IE - so that's clearly off. No, that's different problem and has its own solutions. And if you are using some other elements than those in the specification, or defining your own DT Definitions, then clearly you aren't following the standards - but trieng to come up with one by yourself. True. Care must be taken to keep compatibility with current and (near-)future standards. XHTML is modular, so it can be done in a clean way, I think. I think the right way to define your own tags is to use XML - which is ment for it. And then using some XSL Transformations or some other server-side technology to transform your custom markup to correct XHTML. For some projects I already do that, but the point is to *output* custom tags to get some benefits I've listed in my first post. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sorry looking Guestbook :o(
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 05:35:21 -0500, Bennie Shepherd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Would any of you have and idea as to why my guestbook is so narrow and screwed up in IE 6 and Opera? It's using the same html and css as the rest of the site. Looks fine in FF 1. http://bennieshepherd.com/orangeguestbook/powerbook.cgi Because it does not even have a DOCTYPE, and HTML Validator reports 429 errors. Fix those first. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] comment to Creative Commons RDF in comment
Creative Commons gives a bit of XML to paste into your page ...but XML is inside HTML comment. Don't you think it's rather pointless? XML parsers won't pick it up, so if you want to get license info, you have to threat whole file like a tag soup anyway. Do you know tools that read this rdf license? CC search engine? Wouldn't it make more sense, if it was HTML link to proper rdf file? -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] being framed!
Hard as it is to accept, borderless framesets just won't validate. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/frames.html#h-16.2.2 There is frameborder attribute! Frames have several serious problems, but none of them is validation. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] being framed!
On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:29:22 -, designer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Frameborder 0 still leaves the space between the frames, so is effectively useless. Oh, indeed. It was a long time since I last used frames :) oveflown elements, server side includes or "webmaster-side" preprocessing are IMO better. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Interesting Doctype: anyone seen something like that before?
Hehe, that's a good one :) OK, they don't want to follow standards, that's okay with me, but blaiming Dreamweaver for that... hey, isn't this the program that many Web Standards activists use? Dreamweaver is just a tool, it does not guarantee good code. This page is non-standard and messy. It has tons of tables and font tags, and even some MS-Office-thinks-its-HTML. IMO this (also invalid) doctype is very appropriate here :) -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
I was wondering if any of you have any specific questions, queries, or comments regarding the development of IE, and more specifically, IE7 which may, or may not, come with Longhorn (before... if we're lucky) Does Microsoft feel resposibility for the web? Do they realize how much web traffic is wasted, because IE holds back web standards? (according to stopdesign.net it's 950gb of junk markup *per day*, on microsoft.com alone) What about fixing long-standing rendering bugs? On http://positioniseverything.net/explorer.html you can find some nasty ones (severly broken float model is my 'favorite') On IE blog I've read excuses that such things need to stay for sake of compatibility. Indeed funny it'd be when fixed IE would cease to be "IE-compatible", but how long Microsoft can keep it's pet bugs? Why 8 years is not enough to implement PNG transparency? (that's a popular question :) -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly more OT... Interview with IE Dev team
I just went to the main page for Internet explorer to look for some information and while the images were loading, I noticed the alt attribute of one image was "Need alt text" Maybe that's a cry for help of some poor developer trapped in Redmond? ;) ** QUESTION ** In what condition is Explorer engine? If it needs a rewrite, when is it going to happen? Longhorn? 2010? 2020? It is based on 1993 Mosaic. Back then nobody thought about CSS, DOM and even scripting. Since then code probably got many many tweaks, partial rewrites and all kinds of patches/hacks and odd stuff invented during Browser Wars. IE is the last 'old generation' browser. Netscape gave up on old buggy engine and did a complete rewrite. Opera did a rewrite too. Apple got their new browser. Now all IE competitors have engines *created* after IE6 was. Their engines were written from beginning to meet requirements of modern standards. Standards, that didn't exist or were immature when IE was developed... -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
responsibility only, which is to maximize return on investment. He has done this incredibly well. I'm deeply worried that Microsoft is just going to make tabbed browsing add-on, to put some "fire" out, and keep it's 12-year old engine. From their point of view, following web standards is: * expensive - to catch up they need lots of development and testing, * risky - breaks delicate bug-based-"compatibility", and may introduce new bugs and security problems. Keeping old engine: * is easy, costs nothing, * keeps IE "working with all websites", and keeps *competition* away. They gain nothing from supporting CSS2/3, PNG or even XHTML mime type. Web developers *have to* cope with whatever IE supports. "New! MS Tabs(tm)" and another "security" service pack will keep users happy... -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:17:48 +1100, Mariusz Stankiewicz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: They should just ship firefox with longthorn and forget about IE7 No, thats crazy talk! ...but they could buy out Opera Software... ;) -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
Microsoft has been hyping about web-applications more than you'd imagine, the MSDN Library is full of articles on the subject. 3 of the included posters in the 2003 edition are about web-applications. They don't think about W3C-standards based applications. They are just using a buzzrword to push .NET apps. But I'm convinced Microsoft will make IE7 support standards... why? Because VS 2005 supports the entire XHTML1.1 and CSS2.1 spec They have to support some HTML, XML and CSS anyway, so that's not a problem to add few extra tags. Page you mentioned promotes layout table creator and shows some non-standard code... Microsoft knows that there are web standards. They used W3C to get help on creating technologies they needed, but Microsoft doesn't *gain* anything from supporting other W3C standards. They will support standards when they see cash coming from it, or when someone forces them to do it. How *Microsoft* would benefit from supporting XHTML and CSS2? ... it just doesn't sell. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
How *Microsoft* would benefit from supporting XHTML and CSS2? To play the counter act here... How does microsoft benefit by offering IE at all? They have control over the browser market and the Web. Because IE is everywhere, developers can base applications on it, and make apps tied to Microsoft software. Microsoft has to offer a web browser, otherwise someone else would, and Microsoft just can't let any other company to have their software on almost every PC on the planet... -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Conditional comments
What I wondering is, could a comment be used to feed a GIF variant of a logo to IE to replace a PNG (with alpha) that IE doesn't support? Don't double your code. Using apache mod_rewrite and PHP you can make all PNG 'files' to actually contain GIF, if requested by explorer. See: http://osiolki.net/i/ossredni -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Conditional comments
On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:39:46 -0500, Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I would do something along the line of the below perhaps, recently did, but am wondering if it is a good idea?: I'd use: -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] G* addressing standards
Which standard exactly prohibits use of px as font-size unit? Exactly this one: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CSS-TECHS/#units and soon this one: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20040730/ -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] problem with gradient and background in IE/Win
in the Fox, the transition between the gradient and the background-color is seamless while in IE/Win (5/5.5/6) the colors suddenly don't match anymore. please disregard the slightly mangled layout. any ideas? Use GIF if you need colors to match exactly. Sad, but true. http://www.hut.fi/u/hsivonen/png-gamma.html -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] list spacing
You can only set the padding and margin properties if the LI element is block or inline-block. Not inline, I'm afraid. (AFAIK!) or you can set line-height on inline li element. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] London Web Standards Conference
You can find out more, help to support and register on the shiny new website: http://www.atmedia2005.co.uk Looks interesting, but Â345 registration fee is too much for me. -- regards, Kornel LesiÅski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:01:38 +, Andy Budd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I think that inputs in a table are ok. This is tabular data, although not output, but input, but the structure certainly is tabular. To read a table user needs to understand its structure (associate content with headings, navigate). The same skill is needed to fill a form in a table. I think that it is quite easy to remember four fields and their labels don't need to be repeated every time, especially when there is possibility of hearing all labels twice (+) Bobby and other accessiblity tools are just stupid programs and don't rely on their judgement, if you know better. If you give good explanation of layout and purpose of that form-table in table summary I think that is going to be quite accessible. -- pozdrawiam, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
If you want to use tables to lay out your forms (or anything else for that matter) then go for it. The point is that it is not layout table. It has semantic value. It's a kind of table that can have summary, caption, headers and contains repeating sets of data. hairs and getting semantic, isn't all information on a website really just data? So why can't present it all using tables? Because it is not *tabular* data, unlike the practicular form that this discussion is all about. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
The point is that it is not layout table. Of course it's a layout table. You're using a table so you can lay out your labels next to your inputs all nice and neat. No, it is what you suggest. Original post is not about that. Have you read it? -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Zero margin - just sharing
I know a lot of people use this:
* {
margin:0;
padding:0;
}
issue I found with this, was that within dropdowns the "downarrow" GUI,
covers some of the text on the right.
That's why I never reset margins/padding for all elements, and just set
them (both!)
where it matters (body/h1/ul/li).
But I use some 'global' rules:
a img {border: 0;}
table {border-collapse: collapse;}
form {margin: 0;}
fieldset {padding: 0.5em;}
--
regards, Kornel Lesiński
**
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for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] Two CSS Question
Well, GMail works on the various browsers (ok, I havent tested *all* of them), so I can report it works there too :) Well, it doesn't work in Opera 7.5x. Opera Software implemented XMLHttpRequest and ActiveX objects emulation (only js side, no real controls), specially for GMail. Opera 8 beta works with GMail. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Behaviors
can someone provide any piece of information about behaviors in CSS They are IE-only. That's all I care to know. Some useful implementations: http://www.xs4all.nl/~peterned/csshover.html http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/ Microsoft has some docs on the subject: http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/behaviors/overview.asp -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] A question of semantics
What about s to seperate the form elements when CSS isn't present? a slippery slope, in my opinion...starting to add what is, in this case, visual markup to compensate for lack of CSS... i usually only worry about accessibility in cases where CSS is not available, but i do take your point on usability. if i absolutely had to cater for non-CSS browsers this way, i guess i would wrap each label/control pair in their own fieldset to keep it non-presentational (although that leads to drastic code bloat) I prefer wrapping each (or small set of related s) in a . This gives more styling posibilities and is non-css-browsers--friendly. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] List item spacing problem
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:49:54 +0400, Marwan Farha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In IE6 the spacing between the subNav list items is perfect but in Firefox they become all squashed up against each other, and i can't seem to find the problem. I'd say that in Firefox list is as it should be, and IE6 adds incorrect spacing. In Opera8 it is squashed also. As you said, your CSS is messy. Clean it up before asking, and beware of Voodoo Programming: http://burks.brighton.ac.uk/burks/foldoc/43/125.htm -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Required by Depreciated attributes
Thing is, I need the "ol li ol" element to start at a specified number. The HTML4.01 spec says I can use the start="" attribute, but that its depreciated... So what replaces the start="" attribute in XHTML1.1? I couldn't see anything in CSS about it. Ignore XHTML/1.1. Removal of start is a mistake. Start is dropped in favor of CSS2.1 generated content counters, which are currently supported only by Opera. Counters are really neat and powerful, but the problem is that start number belongs to content, not presentation. See: http://www.literarymoose.info/=/synopsis/ordnung.xhtml -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] User Preference Script
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:34:58 +1000, Tony Aslett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
I would love some feedback on a User Preference Script
http://www.csscreator.com/generator/userpref.php
Because Opera is not able to modify stylesheet rules,
I've been looking for a different solution, and I found one -
use multiple classes on :
body.smallfont {font-size: small;}
body.verdana {font-family: verdana,sans-serif;}
body.red {color: red;}
body.red #something.else {color: red;}
This way you don't need to have lots of alternate stylesheets.
You could even put all such rules in a default stylesheet
and have "classic" style switcher additionally.
--
regards, Kornel Lesiński
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**
Re: [WSG] empty named anchors
Empty link elements are not good (as Patrick pointed out)but what about named anchors (destination anchors)? They are obsolete. Refer to any id instead. Is there any reason why they should not be empty? I wouldn't be surprised if it was because of a bug in Netscape4. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Placing a link text on top of BG image
Further to Carmelyne's post I am also having trouble placing link text over the top of background graphics.Surely there must be a way of using CSS to position the text? Yes, there is a simple way: use padding. See http://browsehappy.pl (note: .pl) - heading gfx is just and text is positioned using padding. Remember that elements must have display: block to respect padding. Use for menu. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] User Preference Script
Personally, I don't see the point in JavaScript-powered style switchers when Server-Side works better... Client-side switcher has immediate effect, so it's easier to choose style IMHO. Besides that, there is no real difference. Current browsers' built-in style switcher implementations are "forgetful", so cookies must be used anyway. For me this is a disadvantage, because cookies lower cachability of pages. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] User Preference Script
I've been looking for a different solution, and I found one - use multiple classes on : Although, if I understand you correctly, that class attribute will be written out server side on request, based on user choices No, it may be written on client-side using DOM. I know that classnames should not refer to their presentation, but this practicular case is different. If style switcher is supposed to set small red verdana font on body (because this is exactly how choice was presented to the user), these names are absolutely appropriate. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Conditional comments
Does this really work on IE? Can I really use transparency in my PNG-24 and have IE display it? Or is there some hidden catch? There are several catches. http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/notes/#PNG -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] valid table tags for xhtml strict
and got a lot of very unreliable information and not found what I'm looking for. Try the source: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ XHTML is based on HTML4, so this also applies (note the Deprecated columns!): http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/elements.html http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/attributes.html I'm looking for a list of valid attributes which can be used with tables in XHTML strict. If you know how to read DTD, check the URL in DOCTYPE you use. Also, whereas 'align="center" cannot be used as a table attribute it is perfectly valid to say . It is presentational attribute. It is not valid in XHTML/1.1 or any Strict [X]HTML version. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński http://browsehappy.pl ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] valid table tags for xhtml strict
Kornel - you might like to double-check your statement that "It is not valid in XHTML/1.1 or any Strict [X]HTML version." http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/attributes.html indicates that the "align" attribute it is *NOT* deprecated for COL, COLGROUP, TBODY, TD, TFOOT, TH, THEAD and TR. Neither is valign. Oh, you're right. I'm surprised. I thought that simply ALL presentational attributes are deprecated. Why these aren't? -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] meta tag standards
Is there anything wrong with closing meta tags like so: In XML probably not, but tag-soup browsers/robots may try to "fix" your code and assume that is ment to be or something like that. My XSLT knowledge is tiny, but I think that it is quite possible to make tag, check XSLT FAQ: http://dpawson.co.uk/xsl/sect2/sect21.html -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] valid table tags for xhtml strict
Because people expect data cells to be centered under column headings and row headings to be left aligned more often than not? This can be done with CSS. If the alignment is different, will it change the meaning of data? I think not. It's presentational. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] valid table tags for xhtml strict
That wasn't my point. The expected result is readily achievable with no CSS at all. The few cell alignments that would deviate from the norm in any given table would require no significant difference in file size from those that require CSS classes for the same purpose, and the stylesheet itself would be just so much additional baggage. I think the same can be said about and ... If the alignment is different, will it change the meaning of data? I think not. It's presentational. Positioning (presentation) is expected in tables, much like H1 is expected to be quite large (presentation). It is expected, but does it belong to HTML? means "header" and is expected to look like a header, even if it is small. OTOH is expected to be quite large... -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] valid table tags for xhtml strict
I thought the whole point behind (x)HTML strict was separation of content and presentation. Keeping "align" attributes does not seem to fit in. I think I've found the reason why these properties are kept. There is a fundamental incompatibility of HTML columns model and CSS inheritance: http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1070385285&count=1 -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] valid table tags for xhtml strict
It is expected, but does it belong to HTML? means "header" and is expected to look like a header, even if it is small. What makes h1 look like a header if not for a significantly larger size than everything else? Alignment? Font style? Color? Background? Decoration? Letter spacing? People used to have typewriters with one size of font, and still documents have had headers. What make columnar data columnar if not for alignment in and within columns? IMHO this logically doesn't make sense. There can't be anything *within* a column that makes it a column. You need to have a column in a first place, to have something within it. -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] .php extension
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:48:49 -0330, Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am on a hosted site, where would I find that file? Other .php pages
display just not this one.
Then you have some fatal error on your page, but server has disabled error
display.
See it using such php file:
include('your_fatal_file.php'); // change that
?>
--
regards, Kornel Lesiński
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**
Re: [WSG] IE 6 will not pick up background image
Okay I have a page (http://www.m5i.com/m5hr/new/test.php), when I cross-browser check IE will not pick up the background image. Is this a syntax error, do you have to declare the background object a couple different ways ? about syntax errors ask here: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://www.m5i.com/m5hr/new/test.php&warning=1&profile=css2 and here: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.m5i.com/m5hr/new/test.php -- regards, Kornel Lesiński ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
