Re: [WSG] inserting text in to IE8
Robin Gorry wrote: Hi all. My problem isn't strictly standards but more JavaScript compatibility between IE versions. In IE6, 7 I can insert text on a range (either on highlighted text or where the cursor is placed) using pasteHTML(). In IE8 I can only pasteHTML() when text is highlighted and not when the cursor is placed. See here for very simple example. http://robing.xtools.co.nz/demo_cms/test_editor/ Any idea's why? Robin. I don't know a lot about ranges, but I hope this article from PPK might help you. http://www.quirksmode.org/dom/range_intro.html This is the WSG list, so it is reasonable to accept that the list members would promote the W3C DOM method of going about getting the range, rather than via proprietary methods. Does look as though this is cutting edge stuff :) Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Starting with HTML and CSS
Gday WSGers! I am lucky enough to be a tutor for a web course at the local uni, and I love to point students towards Starting with HTML + CSS http://www.w3.org/Style/Examples/011/firstcss However, it uses absolute positioning. I would like to use a *huge* favour. Anyone want to write a simple blog post on how to take the HTML file already present in the link and convert it a 2-column design with a footer (most likely using floats OR even display:table!!)) That'd be excellent :) Sort of a Starting with HTML + CSS the sequel :) Many many thanks Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Learning Javascript properly
Simon wrote: Hi all, I really want to get stuck in and learn Javascript properly, and by this I mean not filling my page with onclick and sending hrefs to #. But instead abstracting it all into the .js file and keeping my markup clean. I've followed the book by Jeremy Keith called DOM Scripting which teaches just that but it only goes so far. Everywhere else I look seems to have all the old school techniques which I want to shy away from. Does anyone have any resources? Bulletproof Ajax by Jeremy Keith. When you say it 'only goes so far', what is it that you want to know but are not fining in DOM Scripting? I recommend caution when using Javascript: You have to remember not only is it yet another thing to download, which is an issue in terms of speed (extra HTTP calls and file size - download time) but it can also hamper accessibility (although not necessarily) and slow the browser down. Note www.realestate.com.au on Safari on a mobile device (either iPod Touch or iPhone). Far too heavy on the Javascript and ruins the site really. If they took back the Javascript and made the site lighter, it would run smoothly on these mobile devices. You need to really justify each bit of Javascript. Library are all well and good, but again, are something extra to download, and sometimes at 100KB, can you really justify it? It's a trade-off on what you want to do and how useful it is, but put the user first - is it in their interest? Kat (Who recommends caution in most areas) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] * { display: inline; }
Gday all,
This morning I was creatively thinking different things and playing
around (as you do).
I was wondering what would happen if I did a mass reset using the
asterisk to make everything inline to begin with?
So in the header of my document, I included
style type=text/css
* {
display: inline;
}
/style
Now I know that external style sheets are much smarter, I just wanted to
have a quick play and test.
For some inexplicable reason, the content of the style element then
appears in the browser, Firefox 2, Firefox 3 beta, Safari 3 beta, Opera
9.1 (not IE7).
Is that supposed to happen? And if so, why? I am honestly stumped on
this one.
Thanks,
Kat
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Re: [WSG] * { display: inline; }
dwain wrote: ie does not recognize the *. dwain IE 7 does, and it doesn't answer the question in relation to the other browsers. What is going on? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] hello
kevin mcmonagle wrote: yes its a buzzword mostly but from a design standpoint its also a genre. That's an interesting thought. Is Web 2.0 larger than the web itself? Has it become an art movement/period, in the same way as Modernism, Post-Modernism, Humanism, Impressionism, etc? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy
Thomas Thomassen wrote: You don't have to modify every single HTML you publish. You can set the HTTP header for HTML files on your server and off you go. Don't forget the nasty gotcha: save that page on your own computer, load it back up and suddenly it looks different (as the browser doesn't have the meta tag in the code for the webpage). Letting the sites break is not an alternative. Yes it is. You just don't like it :) Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy
What's so wrong with adding a tag that says use IE8? Standards are a type of contract creating abstraction. If you develop to standards, you don't need to know, nor should you, what browser or version they are running. This tag breaks that abstraction. It's white box rather than black box development. And that usually ends in tears: when the browser version changes, when the browser brand changes (Opera, Safari, Firefox, etc). The tag starts to take responsibility away from web developers, to the browser developer, for crappy code. That engenders complacency and laziness. Neither of which is good for the developer or for the browser developer. What happens when many people are relying on IE7 rendering and MS decide to stop supporting it? The web will still be 'broken'. The issue of legacy will always be there. We are on the cusp of a mobile web and an XML web. I think being forward-thinking here is more important than backwards-compatibility (which is solved within the standards anyway). Thing big. Sure we have numbers on the web now, but the prediction is that we will have double, if not more, on the web through mobile devices. If we can get it right, now, as it should have been, it will solve the problems for the future. And due to the expected increase of numbers, the problems will be even bigger than now. A little bit of pain now (going standards) is worth it. Kat I believe in an XML world. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] how to set table column widths with CSS
Gday, Can someone please remind me how to set the width on a simple table column without suffering classitis? Doctype: HTML4.01 strict. Must validate. Thanks! Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Cost of Accessibility
Christie Mason wrote: If Target doesn't get how their methods are costing them sales, negatively impacting their brand, and increasing their web support costs; then should they be legislated into more profitable methods? Gday Christie, It's not about the cost nor the profitability. It's about how we behave in our community, the social interaction. It's about legislating a fair go for all (sorry for the Aussie colloquialism), regardless of race, gender, height, eye colour, political views, religion or ability. We need to protect our community, our inclusiveness for all. Historically, the world has had times where these ideals have been disregarded, and I cannot think of any examples where it has ended well. Accessibility is how to behave properly in a mannerly fashion towards all. Let's face it, inaccessibility is basically very bad manners. Most manners are socially re-enforced, however, when manners degrade beyond a certain point, then they are legislated against, for example, jay-walking, swearing, vandalism, theft, etc. That's what we are talking about: legislating against very bad manners, that is, discrimination against disability. Profitability or cost doesn't come into the equation. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Recommended screen size
Andrew Maben wrote: On Jun 1, 2007, at 12:07 PM, Felix Miata wrote: Or, quit thinking like a print designer. Embrace the variability that is a browser viewport. Size relatively, which can work for 200x400 and all the way up as high as high gets. With respect, I think this is a rather over simplistic response, at least if I'm correctly interpreting your intent. You seem to be suggesting that a design or layout should be conceived as a rectangle with arbitrary relative dimensions, and that those dimensions should be preserved at all resolutions through relative sizing? Sorry, but that sounds like print thinking to me, and in that case how small is the text going to be at 200x400 if it's presentable at 800x600? Wow, this discussion is incredibly reactive for such a group. The proactive stance accepts and understands the web's craziness. It accepts that currently the majority of the access comes through the desktop/laptop computer. However, the proactive stances also accepts that position is about to undergo a 360 degree change, with the advent of mobile devices with access to the internet. The iPhone will have a huge impact, not just because it can access the internet, but because it can access the internet with Safari, a HTML browser. And of course, the iPod have shown us just how 'cool' Apple gadgets are, and how quickly they are adopted. I think the base recommendation now is to ensure that your data is marked up semantically. This way, no matter which stance you take, it's probably not that hard to change. From there, you need to decide how long this particular design is going to last. If it is going to last less than 3 years, then your target audience is probably the desktop/laptop (the reactive stance). After three to five years, you're going to need to be reactive again, and re-design the site, again. However, many sites now aim for some long term consistency and stability (eg. eBay, Amazon). In that case, you should research mobile devices as they will play a huge role (the pro-active stance). [It's well known that a pro-active stance, in any area, leads to better success than a reactive. Reactive is usually about playing 'catch-up'] Yes, this includes the forever-joked about Internet fridge. All these devices will have access. The question isn't so much about discrimination against the users, because it will be them discriminating against *you* because of your site that's not mobile-ready. Do you want to cut yourself off from that market? How will you explain that to your employer/client in a few years time? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mobiles and standards
Nick Cowie wrote: Katrina I would serve XHTML and stick to XHTML-Basic or XHTML-MP subset of features. Gday Nick, Thank you for your response : Which accompanying mime type would you choose for XHTML-Basic? text/xml application/xhtml + xml application/xml Note: XHTML-MP has it's own mime-type application/vnd.wap.xhtml+xml If you pick XHTML-MP and its associated mime type, then it would be a special mobile site, and wouldn't you also need to use content negotiation to ensure user-agents that couldn't handle that mime type be redirected? Because not all elements are available in XHTML-Basic or XHTML-MP for example button. So if you build a form use input type=submit not button type=submit otherwise most mobile users will not be able to submit the form. And only use the WCSS (Wireless CSS) standards you should get most modern phones. Would it be smart to make your whole site like this anyway, so you serve the same content to everyone? If not, how would you then determine whether or not incoming traffic was mobile and thus to be redirected to a subdomain that served up required content? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Mobiles and standards
Gday, What mark-up is best used for mobile devices? And why? W3C standards (HTML4 or XHTML 1.0) or other (XHTML-Basic, XHTML-MP, WML, HDML) ? Do the 'other' count as standards? Can mobile devices process CSS 2.1 or less when served as media=handheld? (I am coming across some references to a specialised CSS for mobiles, which suggest that they can't process standard CSS). Do mobile devices that handle XHTML need a particular mime type (eg. text/html, text/xml, application/xhtml + xml, application/xml ? NB. I am very tempted to side with the W3C XHTML 1.0 Strict and serve that up to everybody regardless of type of device (although admitting to device dependence within the CSS using mediatypes). But, in so doing, do I then snub a large percentage of mobile devices? If mime type is important for mobile devices and it is different from text/html, does content negotiation assist in solving this problem? Any or all answers are appreciated :) Thanks, Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: FW: RE: Re: [WSG] Accessible Photoshop and flash
Subject: FW: Re: [WSG] Accessible Photoshop and flash Flash is currently not accessible to Jaws or any screen readers although there are methods for only sending it to the people who can use it. Rob As far as I understood, the latest version of Adobe Flash *is* accessible to Jaws and Windows-Eyes, on Windows-based operating systems, through MSAA (Microsoft Active Accessibility). http://www.adobe.com/resources/accessibility/flash8/author.html Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:
Katrina wrote:
I note that in Mike's example, he using
a br / in order to achieve a block-level
style visual. Surely that should be avoidable?
http://green-beast.com/gbcf/gbcf_form.php
Certainly it would be avoidable using label { display : block; } but I
wanted the form to retain its current organization regardless of
CSS-controls.
Consequently, using only semantic code and coding to the absolute
minimum, a form with more than say 5 inputs becomes a dog's breakfast in
vanilla.
Wouldn't this then suggest that something isn't optimal in the default
user style sheet? And that's why this issue comes up again and again?
Kat
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Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Nick Fitzsimons wrote: While I agree that use of lists, tables or definition lists is mere abuse, a fieldset is for grouping thematically related controls and labels: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#edef-FIELDSET So a hypothetical (semantic!) form could/should look something like this (I'm sure there are at least a million things wrong with my example - pretend those errors aren't there): form action= method= fieldsetlegendThe legend for the form/legend fieldsetlabel for=nameYou Name/labelinput type=text name=name id=name/fieldset fieldsetlabel for=poetFavourite poet/labelinput type=text id=poet name=poet/fieldset fieldsetlabel for=dinosaurFavourite dinsaur/labelinput type=text name=dinosaur id=dinosaur/fieldset /fieldset /form My point being that fieldset could be used to wrap label and input pairs? I always thought you had to have a group of controls (more than one input field). I note that in Mike's example, he using a br / in order to achieve a block-level style visual. Surely that should be avoidable? http://green-beast.com/gbcf/gbcf_form.php If the fieldset to contain label/input pairs is true, it would be exciting because it would mean that the form would look reasonable in vanilla and could maintain semantics. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Terrence Wood wrote: On 27/05/2007, at 7:58 PM, Katrina wrote: My point being that fieldset could be used to wrap label and input pairs? No. fieldset is to group related controls, not labels and controls. From http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/interact/forms.html#h-17.10 The FIELDSET element allows authors to group thematically related controls and labels. In some sense, the label and input are thematically related. I understand that a legend is not required for each fieldset, and not including a legend for the label/input pair, it avoids the screen reader reading it out. Thus avoiding the situation where the legend is the same as the label. Would using fieldset be be harmful to accessibility, if used in this way (for label/input pairs without the legend)? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] making form elements the same height
Taco Fleur wrote: Hi all, I have a question I hope one of you might be able to answer. http://www.clickfind.com.au/test-index.html I am trying to get the form elements the same height, I would expect that the following would do the trick; That certainly got me! I'm sorry I can't add much more to what Nick has said. I don't know if this helps, but I think PPK has written on this topic: http://www.quirksmode.org/css/tests/mozie_button.html I hope that helps, to at least understand the phenomenon. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Australian University webpage reviews and WANAU membership
Tim wrote: For some reason my membership of WANAU has been lost, ignored or denied by the WANAU moderator. I get the impression that WANAU is a university thing, and perhaps membership is restricted to university people (staff and students, etc). You should take that up with WANAU themselves. My emails to Dey Alexander to comment on this research have received no reply. I have spent a few hundred hours of my time unfunded to produce a webpage that is highly relevant to WANAU's objectives of promoting accessibility in Australian University websites. I understand that you undertook this research at your behest rather than WANAU's. If they choose to ignore it, then that is their decision. I also offer coding suggestions, but this research has so far been ignored or lost on WANAU, but it already has the attention of many concerned IT academics across Australia, a few with negative comments like the Australian Catholic University, but also many positive comments. I think WANAU's aim is to attempt change through encouragement rather than criticism. Catching more flies with honey. I think they are looking to support people, rather than put down their efforts. Investigate ways to positively effect web accessibility across the university sector. http://www.wanau.org/about/ Note the 'positively'. It concludes that 64% of Australian University sites pass Priority One accessibility tests which is contrary to Dey Alexanders 2003 report that 98% of sites failed accessibility tests. Your result does not necessarily negate Dey Alexander's result, which is four years old. A lot can happen in four years. Where are WANAU's real interests? Selling training courses based on old and inaccurate claims that 98% of Australian University sites are inaccessible without considering new research in not academic excellence, it may even breach the Trade Practices Act for misleading claims. I can see no example of how they are doing that. The reference to the paper is on his own site, not WANAU's. It is used as an example of the research that they do, along with other papers, which I find appropriate. It's good that you want to contribute. My advice is find out how you can contribute in a way that leads to acceptance of your work. For example, if you have tertiary qualifications, aim for post-grad work. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] The use of web standards (tables vs CSS)
Gday, Does anyone know of any research done at any time covering the use of web standards? John Allsopp showed some research at Web Essentials in 2005. What I am specifically looking for is the use of CSS for advanced layout versus tables. Anyone know of anything? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
Oh, and I'd vote for just the first instance on each page - as others have
suggested.
I've been thinking about this, and I think that each time the
abbreviation is mentioned it should be marked up. That is the only way
to get across your specialised aural styles. Unless screen-readers have
a learning ability for each page?
You do not necessarily need to add the title attribute for each instance
after the first.
Also, from a typographical aspect, you may wish to place your
initialisms in small-caps, and the best way to target them is through
abbr.initialism {...}
Kat
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[WSG] [potentially OT] HTML History
Gday all, I'm reading a paper from 1999: Lie, Håkon Wium., 1999, Multipurpose Web Publishing Using HTML, XML and CSS, Communications of the ACM, vol 42. no 10, p95 and have come across a paragraph that hints at conflicting ideology early in the web's history and HTML specifications. The paragraph is: blockquote HTML was formally specified as an SGML DTD in 1992, giving the HTML specification a context in which further expansion was possible, though it also conflicted with the sentiments in the early Web community. /blockquote What were those early sentiments against specifying HTML as an SGML DTD? Can anyone elaborate? Kat The reason I ask here is because I think there are people on list who may actually have been there, or at least know people who were there. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Valid and well-formed
Does the W3C validation mention well-formedness? No. But since the definition of valid includes well-formed, well-formed documents should not validate. Please do not quote Wikipedia, when the W3C sets authoritative documentation. The point with the Wikipedia was to show that it wasn't just me that interpreted the W3C documentation in that manner. What do W3C say about well-formed, nothing I expect? Since well-formed applies to their standards, quite a lot I would imagine. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-well-formed http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#h-4.1 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#wellformed Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Valid and well-formed
But since the definition of valid includes well-formed, well-formed documents should not validate. Blame it on being Friday night! I meant: mal-formed documents should not validate. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - empty labels (??)
Bojana Lalic wrote: Hi all Accverify fails my code because my input element does not contain the alt attribute or label. I don't want any text displayed before or after the query text input element. Should I wrap a label around the input element and then hide it using css? How do I get around this accessibility issue? I know I'm rather old-fashioned, by why not display text beforehand? label for=searchSearch for: /label input type=text id=search/ input type=submit value=go/ It's explicit rather than implicit what is required in that field. I regularly run into problems with forms because apparently everybody is supposed to know what goes in them (I have to spend time figuring it out). But I suppose it's all down to what happens in your user testing :) Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] WANAU - anyone heard of them?
Tim wrote: Who are this group, what have they done in previous forums since 2004. I can only add that as a university student of South Australia, I enrolled in and enjoyed Denise Wood's Accessible Interactive Media where all sorts of accessibility was included (eg. captions on video clips for the Internet, keyboard accessibility for Flash, etc.). What has that got to do with the price of tea in China? Denise Wood is the South Australian representative of WANAU. That's what she does :) She teaches uni students to be very careful in accessibility, not just in this specialised course, but in all courses she teaches. Actually, she is really good at it :) Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Client Side Development Process
Lee Powell wrote: Hi all I wonder if anyone can offer some advice. I've recently landed a new development position within a very credible digital agency as part of their client side development team. One of our things to do is develop a rock solid development process we work through for every project. On the same topic, but somewhat slightly different, has anyone ever heard of or used OOHDM (Object Oriented Hypermedia Design Method)? Is it useful? It is, as far as I understand, a methodology (process) to use when creating web applications/sites. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OOHDM Honestly, before I started mucking about in academic papers, I had never heard of it. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Validating HTML output for XSLT
Gday, If we create HTML/XHTML output through XSLT, is there anyway we can check the quality of that output? My check local HTML in the Firefox Web Developer Toolbar doesn't work :( It looks alright in the DOM Inspector. Is that the best available currently? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Recommendations for books to take one to the next level
Mordechai Peller wrote: Some books which I've had my eye on include: - Building Accessible Websites by** Joe Clark I'd say avoid this one. The author had a technical editor, but needed a general editor that could stand toe-to-toe and command the author to remove a few offending pieces (the unnecessary French phrases, for instance). It's also getting on the old side now. On my to-read list, and sitting on my desk, is Pro CSS Techniques. How Pro this is though I don't yet know. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Recommendations for books to take one to the next level
russ - maxdesign wrote: Whatever you do, avoid CSS in 10 minutes. The author was obviously a drunken bum who knows nothing. Plus I have heard rumours there will be a CSS in 9 minutes coming out, so why waste that extra minute! Then shouldn't we wait for the instant-mix CSS then? Just add the Spry framework;) Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] web accessibility-some thoughts
Bob Schwartz wrote: First a disclaimer: heheheh I had to have my rant off-list before I could respond !:) How and why did the web get singled out from among all of the other publishing mediums to be by law accessible? It hasn't. Why aren't book, magazine, and newspaper publishers required to produce an audio or braille version of everything they publish? Why aren't TV broadcasters and movie production companies required to sub-title all of their broadcasts or films, or have an off screen reader describing the scenes? My question to Helen Coonan was Why aren't DVDs sold in Australia required to have captions? I got a half-arsed response from both Helen Coonan and Philip Ruddock. Their response was it's up to the manufacturers which is a totally cop out answer, because they know, as do all of us, things only ever happen in Australia when it's legislated. You might think captions on a DVD is a silly thing to enfore: here is a test for you. Go into your local video rental place, and check out the Australiana shelf. What percentage of those are captioned? THEN go onto Amazon.com and see whether or not the same film released for the US audience has captions. Guess what region encoding that DVD from the US has? Guess what region encoding is enforced upon us? Doesn't match, does it? Therefore, those that need captions on Australian films can't have it -- although they can see it on AMazon.com -- because of region encoding. It's a nasty little catch 22. And I still didn't avoid my rant. Isn't saying one can't (shouldn't) use, for example, a popup window on a web site because screen readers have trouble with them, like telling Hollywood they can't (shouldn't) use certain special effects because the off screen reader would have trouble explaining them to a blind person? No, it's like telling the Australian Film Industry to stop being such discriminatory wankers and ensure they have captions on their Australian releseasd DVDs. Kat Who doesn't watch Australian movies because the lack of captions isolates a family member who needs them. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Katrina wrote: Forget about how it should be marked up or presented, the issue is about *defining* what tabular data is. What's your definition of tabular data? Data that is separated by a tab character (such as tsv files etc). I don't think this relates *directly* to HTML though, it's a format for tabular data exchange. The question wasn't about HTML, it was about what tabular data was. And it's data separated by a tab character. To quote: A table can be a simple collection of data in tabular format http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/tables.html But does using a tabular format makes the data tabular? Yes, because tabular format is tabular data due to the use of the tab character (thus 'tab'ular data). Because in this case what about the content of Definition Lists? I mean (when unstyled) a DD shows with a tab indent, isn't it? But it's not unstyled, is it? It's styled by the default browser style sheet. What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data? Yes, because you still need to explain the relationships between the two. Those two pieces of data by themselves mean absolutely diddly squat. Is that the name of the current president of this organisation? Is this a member that is a president of another organisation? Is it a candidate running for president? tabular data requires the tab character (or the close web approximation to) and in some ways requires an explanation of the relationships and meaning between the data. (headers) I totally agree with you on this last point (explicit relationship between the data), but then in a simple two column table (note that I can see exceptions here), there is a good chance that the data would make sense with no headers at all, no? No. It is the assumption on your part of what that data means. It is better to be explicit, rather than implicit, and to not leave the meaning of the data with the viewer who makes their own meanings from their own experiences and understandings. In short, does the following makes sense to you or not at all: President John Smith Vice-president Janet Jones etc. There are tabs in there, which creates an implicit relationship... But it is better, with data, to be explicit, to ensure your reader knows exactly what you are talking about. There is always room for mis-understandings no matter what you do, but you can minimise that. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Paul Novitski wrote: At 3/6/2007 05:51 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote Forget about how it should be marked up or presented, the issue is about *defining* what tabular data is. What's your definition of tabular data? Data that is separated by a tab character (such as tsv files etc). To quote: A table can be a simple collection of data in tabular format http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/tables.html And in the case of the given example, a pseudo tab character was given. Actually, what if there was only one row for our example? Would you consider marking up the following with a table? President..John Smith What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data? --- Yes, because you still need to explain the relationships between the two. Those two pieces of data by themselves mean absolutely diddly squat. Is that the name of the current president of this organisation? Is this a member that is a president of another organisation? Is it a candidate running for president? tabular data requires the tab character (or the close web approximation to) and in some ways requires an explanation of the relationships and meaning between the data. (headers) Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XML schemas and targetnamespace
Katrina wrote: For anyone who's interested: Asking around: targetnamespace is just a name, that's it. It does not act as a link nor as a source that the parser should follow. The parser just checks that the XML schema that the XML document cites is matching and correct. In the example cited, the xmlns:po exists purely for clarity sake and no other reason, as it is unnecessary. None of the elements prefixed by po: are required to be so. The unprefixed namespace is the default namespace and that it is the namespace for the XML schema itself. If anyone disagrees with this, please let me know. Kat What does targetnamespace do? Is it setting a default namespace for that schema? Take for instance this example: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-0/#po1.xsd schema xmlns=http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema; xmlns:po=http://www.example.com/PO1; targetNamespace=http://www.example.com/PO1; elementFormDefault=unqualified attributeFormDefault=unqualified I would have thought that the default namespace was the first namespace listed, unprefixed (xmlns=http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema;) and then the second listed namespace, xmlns:po=http://www.example.com/PO1; is referenced by the po: prefix, but then what does the targetNamespace do? What does it reference? What does it mean? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
David Pietersen wrote: Sorry if this has already come up... but have you seen these? http://www.lenef.com/dotleader/ http://home.tampabay.rr.com/bmerkey/examples/dot-leaders.html I would suggest that the last one was an example of *table* of contents. John Faulds said: I tend to think of tabular data as that which, if you were to pull one row out at random and without reference to the column headings, it wouldn't make a lot of sense. I think we can say that Thierry Koblentz's example is good, because we are assuming we know what the column headings are. Thierry Koblentz's example: President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones I assume that this is a list of positions and their office holders for a particular organisation. But it could be a list of members of an executives association with their positions listed. It could be a list of people vying for particular positions within an organisation eg.: President..John Smith President..Joe Smith So perhaps John Fauld's requirement of headers is a good one!:) I am going for tabulated data because this data is requiring a right tab, though most data we talk about usually requires a left tab, though you could make a strong case for a definition list. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] XML schemas and targetnamespace
Thank you in advance for this question, I know it's probably stretching what WSG is here for. What does targetnamespace do? Is it setting a default namespace for that schema? Take for instance this example: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-0/#po1.xsd schema xmlns=http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema; xmlns:po=http://www.example.com/PO1; targetNamespace=http://www.example.com/PO1; elementFormDefault=unqualified attributeFormDefault=unqualified I would have thought that the default namespace was the first namespace listed, unprefixed (xmlns=http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema;) and then the second listed namespace, xmlns:po=http://www.example.com/PO1; is referenced by the po: prefix, but then what does the targetNamespace do? What does it reference? What does it mean? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Web Standards Shetland Ponies
Some people write as if there were a club, a them and us, people who get it and people who don't, and never the twain shall meet. My original post was not meant to seperate 'standardistas' from the rest of the industry. It's just that I thought Standards Were the Way Things Were Done by Everyone (TM), and then I came across a huge article about a website that fit the qualification of 'Failed Redesign' (these things didn't really exist). I wanted to understand why this happened. Is standards only really something a small contingent of geeky developers go for? The more I look around at redesigns, I notice that more are failed than not. Sunbeam, Shiels Jewellry, VideoEzy, etc, etc, etc. Very few are standards compliant. I don't think there is a them and us, because I think even people on this list are creating Failed Redesigns. There are quite a few on this list, and yet very few successful redesigns. Surely it's a matter of trade-offs that people weigh up and make a decision about, and have their reasons for doing so. Not that long ago there was advice to add in all the proprietary attributes within the body element to make it work in all browsers. Wouldn't it be better to be straightforwards and honest about the reasons for the trade-off decisions and their results? Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] University textbook or other resources?
Sorry for the sarcasm but I dream of a lecturer covering things like accessibility, especially with decent books and knowledgeable and interested tutors :-P Well, one of my minors at Uni SA has a subject/course of Accesible Interactive Multimedia, so your dream is my reality :) Thanks for that! ;p Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS and PHP
designer wrote: H All, I've been having a little bother with validation of my PHP generated pages. I'm new to PHP/mySQL and I'm finding that some peculiar things happen, such as /body and /html appear in the middle of the code. (???) Also, I find that submitting a URL such as: $myurl=testdate.php?houseID=$housenamechangeID=$changeover; A little bit off the beaten track: How about rewriting the URL to something more like housename/changeover?, so it's technologically independent, search engine friendly and validates easier? I'm currently mucking about with this and learning about this, after reading: http://www.w3.org/TR/chips/ http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI Anyone who has done this before have any tips on this? Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Craig Rippon wrote: Kay, thanks. I am a web development student at college and this point came up in a lecture, just curious to get opinions. Cheers Craig R. Gday, I am a uni student at University of South Australia. May I ask you which college/uni teaches web development? Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards
Katrina wrote: I'm sorry, I totally didn't mean to send that to the list. Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] WE05
Gday, I was lucky enough to be able to attend WE05, and I was listening to something Tantek Celik said and I've been mulling it over for a few days, and I just thought I'd ask a group who'd know. Context: I'm a uni student, so I don't know much. Going back to Tantek Celik, he was referring to meaningful markup and he said Who has ever seen a div with a class of header? Why not use a header (eg.h1) element? I may not have understood that. I may have misheard that. I'm sorry if I did. Aren't the header tags reserved for text? Is it acceptable form to place non-textual elements only inside of header tags? Eg. h1img src=image.jpg alt=An image/h1 ? Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
