Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Jens Nedal wrote:


[...] If you ask me, i would say that a double  is a  already.
 Look at word processing programs. When you wish for a double  
you will simply type "Enter". If you want a line-break you will 
mostly do a Shift+Enter.


Word processing isn't web design, and one has to look beyond the visual
when selecting markup since markup convey both visual and non-visual
meaning by its presence, or absence.
A  doesn't tell anything about the context it's in - it is just a
line-break no matter where it is found. How many breaks one add doesn't
change that.
Visually a  can have "some height", "line-height" or "zero height",
depending on how one styles it, so one can not rely on it to create
a space to add additional meaning either.

 is a paragraph and a poem can consist of multiple paragraphs, 
called verses. The discussion might be about small matters, but i 
feel  looks more like it fits breaking a poem into verses.


One can observe some discussion about how to markup poems and alike on
the HTML 5 lists, and so far "series of paragraphs with line-breaks
() as appropriate and spans for additional styling" seems to be the
only somewhat suitable option.
I think that'll stick ... unless they add new, dedicated, elements for
poems, which seems unlikely.

Since one can style paragraphs, spans and line-breaks as one wants, one
can achieve quite acceptable visual presentations with control of
white-space etc., without losing or messing up more than one has to for
the non-styled and/or non-visual presentation. Wrapping the whole poem
in a div (division/section) provides for additional styling.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Jens Nedal]

dwain wrote:
> i agree, put the poem in a , place the poem inside a , use  /> ( for html4) at the end of each line and a double 
> between stanzas (unless you are writing a very long poem, then i'd
> go for  at every stanza).
>
> cheers,
> dwain
>
>

Hello Web Standards Group List Readers,
This is my first post here, and i am looking forward to more conclusive 
discussions.


Now back on topic. If you ask me, i would say that a double  is a 
 already. Look at word processing programs. When you wish for a 
double  you will simply type "Enter". If you want a line-break you 
will mostly do a Shift+Enter.


 is a paragraph and a poem can consist of multiple paragraphs, called 
verses. The discussion might be about small matters, but i feel  
looks more like it fits breaking a poem into verses.


Another idea might be using an  list instead of  an wrapping 
the poems into  list elements, since your chained  elements 
would result in a list of poems.


So far my first thoughts.
regards, Jens



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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[dwain]

On 6/23/08, James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Designer
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From all the replies I have read through and from all the articles I have
> read up on, this is probably the best solution I came across.
>
> I would wrap the whole poem within a , then each of the verses in a
> paragraph and the lines created using .
>
> Anyone against this method? and why?

i agree, put the poem in a , place the poem inside a , use  ( for html4) at the end of each line and a double 
between stanzas (unless you are writing a very long poem, then i'd
go for  at every stanza).

cheers,
dwain


-- 
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[James Jeffery]

Also forgot to mention, it isn't just poems that could use this method but
also lyric websites. I totally forgot to check how they mark up songs.


On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 6:36 PM, James Jeffery <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Designer <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Matijs wrote:
>>
>>> I have to agree with Elizabeth here. Semantically I'd say that this is
>>> one of the few occasions where a  would be appropriate. The verses
>>> would be paragraphs of course
>>>
>>
>>I did this a while back on a site for an author. I decided it was the
>> best compromise between practicallity, readability and standards.  I gave
>> each verse a CSS class called 'stanza'.
>>
>>See:  http://www.webscribe.fsnet.co.uk/chapters/c3summer.html
>>
>>Bob
>>www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
>>
>
> From all the replies I have read through and from all the articles I have
> read up on, this is probably the best solution I came across.
>
> I would wrap the whole poem within a , then each of the verses in a
> paragraph and the lines created using .
>
> Anyone against this method? and why?
>


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[James Jeffery]

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Designer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Matijs wrote:
>
>> I have to agree with Elizabeth here. Semantically I'd say that this is one
>> of the few occasions where a  would be appropriate. The verses would be
>> paragraphs of course
>>
>
>I did this a while back on a site for an author. I decided it was the
> best compromise between practicallity, readability and standards.  I gave
> each verse a CSS class called 'stanza'.
>
>See:  http://www.webscribe.fsnet.co.uk/chapters/c3summer.html
>
>Bob
>www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
>

>From all the replies I have read through and from all the articles I have
read up on, this is probably the best solution I came across.

I would wrap the whole poem within a , then each of the verses in a
paragraph and the lines created using .

Anyone against this method? and why?


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Designer]

Matijs wrote:
I have to agree with Elizabeth here. Semantically I'd say that this is 
one of the few occasions where a  would be appropriate. The verses 
would be paragraphs of course.




I did this a while back on a site for an author. I decided it was the 
best compromise between practicallity, readability and standards.  I 
gave each verse a CSS class called 'stanza'.


See:  http://www.webscribe.fsnet.co.uk/chapters/c3summer.html

Bob
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk




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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Matijs]

I have to agree with Elizabeth here. Semantically I'd say that this is one
of the few occasions where a  would be appropriate. The verses would be
paragraphs of course.

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Elizabeth Spiegel <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have to say I'm at a loss to see how a poem can be interpreted as a list!
> One of the simplest tests (for me) of 'is this markup semantically
> appropriate?' is to consider what your reaction would be if you saw it
> without styles (or more correctly, with default styling).  I would
> certainly
> be taken aback to see a verse marked up as a bulleted list!
>
> And consider the effect in a screen reader: would it help the vistor to
> hear
> at the beginning of each verse 'list of twelve items bullet Shall I compare
> the to a summer's day? Bullet Thou art more lovely and more temperate
> bullet
> etc'
>
> Elizabeth
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Aldona
> Sent: Sunday, 22 June 2008 12:46 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems
>
> I've been reading the marking up poems thread with interest but it seems
> no one has made what seems to be the most obvious suggestion. When I was
> still in class we had an exercise with a poem and used an unordered
> list. Would this be a viable option? You could even have a different
> list for each verse and then still do the fancy styling. What do people
> think of that as an option?
>
> IceKat
>
>
>
> Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
> >>> Must you Australian's *always* have the last say?  ;)
> >>
> >> not always, but often. esp if it ends in beer and a party
> >
> > Is that why what you say most often makes no sense?
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Georg
>
>
>
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RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Elizabeth Spiegel]

I have to say I'm at a loss to see how a poem can be interpreted as a list!
One of the simplest tests (for me) of 'is this markup semantically
appropriate?' is to consider what your reaction would be if you saw it
without styles (or more correctly, with default styling).  I would certainly
be taken aback to see a verse marked up as a bulleted list!

And consider the effect in a screen reader: would it help the vistor to hear
at the beginning of each verse 'list of twelve items bullet Shall I compare
the to a summer's day? Bullet Thou art more lovely and more temperate bullet
etc'

Elizabeth

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Aldona
Sent: Sunday, 22 June 2008 12:46 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

I've been reading the marking up poems thread with interest but it seems
no one has made what seems to be the most obvious suggestion. When I was
still in class we had an exercise with a poem and used an unordered
list. Would this be a viable option? You could even have a different
list for each verse and then still do the fancy styling. What do people
think of that as an option?

IceKat



Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
>>> Must you Australian's *always* have the last say?  ;)
>>
>> not always, but often. esp if it ends in beer and a party
>
> Is that why what you say most often makes no sense?
>
> :-)
>
> Georg



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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Aldona]

I've been reading the marking up poems thread with interest but it seems
no one has made what seems to be the most obvious suggestion. When I was
still in class we had an exercise with a poem and used an unordered
list. Would this be a viable option? You could even have a different
list for each verse and then still do the fancy styling. What do people
think of that as an option?

IceKat



Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

Must you Australian's *always* have the last say?  ;)


not always, but often. esp if it ends in beer and a party


Is that why what you say most often makes no sense?

:-)

Georg




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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Must you Australian's *always* have the last say?  ;)


not always, but often. esp if it ends in beer and a party


Is that why what you say most often makes no sense?

:-)

Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Matthew Hodgson]

not always, but often. esp if it ends in beer and a party



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 20 June 2008 12:12 PM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

Must you Australian's *always* have the last say?  ;)


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RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Paul Bennett]

Must you Australian's *always* have the last say?  ;)


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[russ - maxdesign]

>> Not if it's your own poem you're putting on your own page.

> Rubbish - I quote myself all the time! :)

Don't you mean:

Rubbish - I quote myself all the time! :)


:)




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RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Paul Bennett]

> Not if it's your own poem you're putting on your own page.

Rubbish - I quote myself all the time! :)

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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Andrew Harris wrote:

A poem is, essentially, a block quotation, is it not?


Not if it's your own poem you're putting on your own page.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Susie Gardner-Brown]

I look after a poetry ezine site ( http://www.foame.org/) and that¹s what I
do. 

For a lot of  poets, the look of their poem on the page is very important.
Sometimes they want to make visual patterns with their stanzas ... always a
bit hit and miss, depending on browsers/platforms etc.

And then you get the poems with lines that are required to start under a
specific word in the previous line ­ have had to make use of a lot of
non-breaking spaces to do that, and again it can¹t be precise.

- susie




On 20/6/08 2:42 AM, "jody tate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'd stress what Jon Tan wrote:  "My recommendation would be  for stanzas
> and  line breaks for most verse." Stanzas are usually taught as the
> paragraph of poetry and verses are referred to as line breaks.
> 
> Side note you're free to ignore: I'd argue most of the historical bits below
> are incorrect in the details, but are correct in general. Jonson's _English
> Grammar_ is a great snapshot of the period's grammar eccentricities, but
> hardly a guide that was followed--he didn't care enough to publish it while
> alive despite how careful he was about publication (I did a Ph.D. one
> Shakespeare and taught medieval, early modern and modern poetry for eight
> years before the siren call of web work).
> 
> -jody
> 
> --
> Jody Tate
> Web Developer - UW Network Systems
> http://staff.washington.edu/jtate/
> 
> 
> On Jun 19, 2008, at 3:06 AM, Jon Tan wrote:
> 
>> Historically each stanza in a poem is a paragraph. Layout (new lines) began
>> punctuating paragraphs in the later Middle Ages. Prior to that the lines ran
>> into one another with punctuation used to indicate where breaths and breaks
>> in the running text occurred [1]. Syntactic punctuation was not commonplace
>> until after Ben Johnson's English Grammar in 1640. That means that layout
>> /is/ punctuation for modern poetry, so markup needs to reflect that. My
>> recommendation would be  for stanzas and  line breaks for most
>> verse. To do anything that returns stanzas to running text when CSS is
>> disabled would break the syntax of the verse /unless/ lines are specifically
>> punctuated with something other than a break at the end; a comma for example.
>>  is an alternative but does not punctuate line ends at all, except
>> visually. It would be interesting to know how alternative browsers handle
>> both s and single/double line breaks in  blocks. Do they inject a
>> pause or other aural boundary?
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Andrew Harris]

A poem is, essentially, a block quotation, is it not?

I'd probably be throwing in a cite attribute too :-)
http://reference.sitepoint.com/html/blockquote/cite

-- 
Andrew Harris
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.woowoowoo.com

~~~ <*>< ~~~


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[jody tate]

I'd stress what Jon Tan wrote:  "My recommendation would be  for  
stanzas and  line breaks for most verse." Stanzas are usually  
taught as the paragraph of poetry and verses are referred to as line  
breaks.


Side note you're free to ignore: I'd argue most of the historical bits  
below are incorrect in the details, but are correct in general.  
Jonson's _English Grammar_ is a great snapshot of the period's grammar  
eccentricities, but hardly a guide that was followed--he didn't care  
enough to publish it while alive despite how careful he was about  
publication (I did a Ph.D. one Shakespeare and taught medieval, early  
modern and modern poetry for eight years before the siren call of web  
work).


-jody

--
Jody Tate
Web Developer - UW Network Systems
http://staff.washington.edu/jtate/


On Jun 19, 2008, at 3:06 AM, Jon Tan wrote:

Historically each stanza in a poem is a paragraph. Layout (new  
lines) began punctuating paragraphs in the later Middle Ages. Prior  
to that the lines ran into one another with punctuation used to  
indicate where breaths and breaks in the running text occurred [1].  
Syntactic punctuation was not commonplace until after Ben Johnson's  
English Grammar in 1640. That means that layout /is/ punctuation for  
modern poetry, so markup needs to reflect that. My recommendation  
would be  for stanzas and  line breaks for most verse. To  
do anything that returns stanzas to running text when CSS is  
disabled would break the syntax of the verse /unless/ lines are  
specifically punctuated with something other than a break at the  
end; a comma for example.  is an alternative but does not  
punctuate line ends at all, except visually. It would be interesting  
to know how alternative browsers handle both s and single/ 
double line breaks in  blocks. Do they inject a pause or other  
aural boundary?










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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[James Jeffery]

Very good!

But I have to say they all sound the same. Did anyone spot any differences?
I think there may have been a difference in the second one but can't be
sure.

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 4:09 PM, Jon Tan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> On 19 Jun 2008, at 11:06, Jon Tan wrote:
>
>
> On 19 Jun 2008, at 10:08, James Jeffery wrote:
>
> A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.
>
> I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to use
> P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this
> case.
>
>
> [snip] It would be interesting to know how alternative browsers handle both
> s and single/double line breaks in  blocks. Do they inject a
> pause or other aural boundary?
>
>
> Jon Gibbins (http://dotjay.co.uk) of GAWDS and Accessify forum has kindly
> run some screen reader tests on both  with  and . He's also
> published the actual results as .MP3s:
>
> http://lab.dotjay.co.uk/tests/screen-readers/poetry/
>
> Jon
> -
> http://jontangerine.com/
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Jon Tan]

On 19 Jun 2008, at 11:06, Jon Tan wrote:


On 19 Jun 2008, at 10:08, James Jeffery wrote:


A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was  
to use P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is  
perfect for this case.


[snip] It would be interesting to know how alternative browsers  
handle both s and single/double line breaks in  blocks.  
Do they inject a pause or other aural boundary?


Jon Gibbins (http://dotjay.co.uk) of GAWDS and Accessify forum has  
kindly run some screen reader tests on both  with  and .  
He's also published the actual results as .MP3s:


http://lab.dotjay.co.uk/tests/screen-readers/poetry/

Jon
-
http://jontangerine.com/



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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Ben Buchanan]

> A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.
It depends on the form, really. For most poetry, I think paragraphs with
line breaks are appropriate. If the poem requires very specific positioning,
pre would be the first option as that doesn't rely on CSS. Finally if all
else fails, divs for verses and paragraphs for lines, with classes to
position them. But that won't degrade gracefully, since CSS is required to
convey core meaning.

There's not much hope for something better in future either. XHTML2 had the
"l" element, which was the "line" element. That would have been useful in
this case. Sadly HTML5 doesn't seem to have anything so simple as a way to
mark up a line of text within a paragraph.

cheers,

Ben
-- 
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Jon Tan]

On 19 Jun 2008, at 10:08, James Jeffery wrote:


A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was  
to use P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is  
perfect for this case.


Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?


Historically each stanza in a poem is a paragraph. Layout (new lines)  
began punctuating paragraphs in the later Middle Ages. Prior to that  
the lines ran into one another with punctuation used to indicate where  
breaths and breaks in the running text occurred [1]. Syntactic  
punctuation was not commonplace until after Ben Johnson's English  
Grammar in 1640. That means that layout /is/ punctuation for modern  
poetry, so markup needs to reflect that. My recommendation would be  
 for stanzas and  line breaks for most verse. To do anything  
that returns stanzas to running text when CSS is disabled would break  
the syntax of the verse /unless/ lines are specifically punctuated  
with something other than a break at the end; a comma for example.  
 is an alternative but does not punctuate line ends at all,  
except visually. It would be interesting to know how alternative  
browsers handle both s and single/double line breaks in   
blocks. Do they inject a pause or other aural boundary?


Jon Tan
-
http://jontangerine.com/

[1] http://www.ualberta.ca/~sreimer/ms-course/course/punc.htm



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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[James Jeffery]

Just another resource for those interested:
http://signified.com.au/a-poem-element-for-html5/

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:53 AM, James Jeffery <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> True.
>
> I still think there should be a stanard set of elements to mark up poems
> though. Not checked if WG are doing anything in HTML 5 - i think they are.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:38 AM, Michael Cordover <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I would suggest that this is . Poetry is generally so
>> display-specific that you couldn't hope to mark it up, I'd say.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 19:08, James Jeffery
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.
>> >
>> > I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to
>> use
>> > P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this
>> > case.
>> >
>> > Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?
>>
>>
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>


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[James Jeffery]

True.

I still think there should be a stanard set of elements to mark up poems
though. Not checked if WG are doing anything in HTML 5 - i think they are.

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:38 AM, Michael Cordover <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would suggest that this is . Poetry is generally so
> display-specific that you couldn't hope to mark it up, I'd say.
>
> Michael
>
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 19:08, James Jeffery
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.
> >
> > I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to use
> > P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this
> > case.
> >
> > Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?
>
>
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>


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Michael Cordover]

I would suggest that this is . Poetry is generally so
display-specific that you couldn't hope to mark it up, I'd say.

Michael

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 19:08, James Jeffery
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.
>
> I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to use
> P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this
> case.
>
> Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?


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RE: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Patrick Lauke]

Well yes, you could mark it up as XML behind the scenes, but you shouldn't be 
sending XML to the browser. They might or might not be able to cope with it, 
but you'd be breaking validation (unless you used XHTML sent as actual XML and 
start namespacing things).
 
In simple terms, I'd mark up each stanza as a paragraph and slap line breaks in 
for each line.
 
P
 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James 
Jeffery
Sent: 19 June 2008 10:08
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
        Subject: [WSG] Marking Up Poems


A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to 
use P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this 
case.

Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?

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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Andrew Freedman]

James Jeffery provided the following information on 19/06/2008 7:08 PM:

A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.



Make sure all your code rhymes.  :)

Sorry. Couldn't resist at this hour.

A.


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Re: [WSG] Marking Up Poems

[Michael Persson]

Poetry is art and its really ugly to even try to mark it correctly.

There must be something that would work though and i have actually
tried with a really bad result.. http://kevinmcgeary.com/essay.html

With inherit and ems mixed with p there must be a way also where
beginning letter would be replaced with a sIFR font to be pretty
and make it really pretty...

I didnt have the energy because it so rare and really destroying the
words meaning i guess...

Michael




James Jeffery wrote:

A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to 
use P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect 
for this case.


Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?

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[WSG] Marking Up Poems

[James Jeffery]

A question was raised at work today 'How do you mark up a poem'.

I looked into it but found nothing worthy. My original thought was to use
P's and class names, but one article I read said XML is perfect for this
case.

Whats your views on this, anyone actually did it before?


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